There's a lot of good stuff out there, but the difficulty for new players is there have been a few UI changes in the past couple of releases and a lot of the older tutorials don't match up with what you see on screen if you download the game for the first time.
I've been seeing a bunch of people playing Multi-player lately. I've been playing a bunch of a "micro city builder" mode that somebody set up and it is pretty fun when you get more than one player in. Rules for it are simple: Every company starts by placing their HQ in a town under 800 pop (can't be a "city" designation) and has to be the first to grow that city to a population of 3k by making monthly deliveries of passengers, mall, and goods that increase as the population increases. A typical game lasts anywhere from an 45 minutes to an hour, but with how small the map is, you'll be seeing a bunch of interesting connected company networks in it. There's also a very popular Reddit server I've found that's pretty fun. It's basically just default settings from 1940 - 2050, with cargo distribution on for passenger mail, and valuables (passengers and mail have specific locations they want to travel to and won't just board or load on to any vehicle, unless it's going to where they want to).
Your voice is like a warm blanket on a cold night, like a gentle breeze on a hot day, like a soothing melody on a stressful one. I could listen to you for hours and never get bored. You have the most relaxing and calming voice I have ever heard. Thank you for sharing your gift with us. You are amazing!
You're all so lovely about it! I still think of it as at best functional, in that I can get information out of my head and into the heads of the people around me with a sort of 60-70% success rate :D
The fact that you have NO ANNOYING MUSIC in your video got my like and subscription -- I'm downloading the game via 'Steam' as I watch this. Hopefully any other videos/guides you've made for this game are as good...thank you for your time and assistance.
I was patiently watching until the video suddenly ended and I realised a full 45 minutes had passed. Good job for making such a long and technical video feel so short and concise!
I am 16 year's old and i fwiking addicted in this nostalgic game, I don't know some other mechanics in game but thanks for the informative tutorials. The complexity of the game specially the train's makes me want to play this game more, and its satisfying for me to see the smooth flow of junctions and complex station works. Sigh if only the game improve the graphics it will be much fun but the online content are still very good tho, and the multiplayer is not that much active but it was very fun than playing with ai I'll try to join in the discord in hopes to find player's want to play multiplayer.
Your voice is so… satisfying. Your accent, the calm tone of voice… I feel like I could listen to you talk about grass and brick walls for five hours. Low-key, you should do ASMR or a podcast.
Came here from a playlist about RoboCorp RPA development, in which it's the final video. I have no idea why, but I stuck around longer than I needed to simply because you have a pleasant voice and pedagogical way of explaining things. I only wish it was relevant for me, hehe. Godspeed!
Great tutorial! I have a friend that was playing it in one of the Discord's I frequent. I wanted to learn but the old one's I found were not very concise or interesting/easy to follow. This really helps me get motivated to try and learn this game despite missing this gem when it came out.
On the Steam discussions for OpenTTD, one of the {Developers} reference this video as still being the best tutorial of this game to date. You made what I thought was a ridiculously complex game, actually seem manageable and fun. Bravo man.
I think you've really nailed the balance between comprensiveness and comprehensability, and I that the concluding message of "experiment more yourself" is a very important part of the game that many tutorials (by nature let's be fair) do not really tell you. On top of that it is also a really well structured yet very naturally flowing piece of video which in my opinion deserves some praise! If I had to criticise you on one part though it would be the use of "lane" over track, I just cannot let that one slide! :P As a little post scriptum; this tutorial really made me realise how many little quality of life improvements the game has seen in just the past couple of years.
Not finished the video yet but I wanted to say thank you for these OpenTTD videos. I really like the science videos that show some mechanics and thoughts behind building your network. Also, the MS store image cracked me up so much that I have tea on my hoodie now - thanks a lot for that
I really love your voice. That soft british accent makes me think I'm a young child, watching some british infomercial or something like that. It's really soothing, and helps me learn.
Thanks for the railway info, my railway was always not working since the tutorial I watch are the old once. With the new tutorial of yours is the one I'm looking for. Thank you so much.
This was such a pleasant and informative way to learn about a complicated game. I had tried playing before but it was too intimidating, but now that I've watched this video I found the game approachable and fun. Thank you!
I wish my chemistry teacher was at least half as a good teacher as you are. I'd win a Nobel prize in chemistry. Thnx! I'm playing my very first OpenTTD game and you are awesome!
This may be weird but I could sit and peacefully fall asleep to your voice. You're perfect for those nature or history documentaries I fall asleep to all the time.
It's amazing game! Since my dad showed me this game when I was 6 I like it and play it, when I have time. This game is about 2 years older than me, it's still getting updates!
What a great, great tutorial! I’ve watched a lot of this type of video over the years and this was really well executed. Thanks for taking the time to share.
I have no idea why but I just watched a 45 minute tutorial video and I was more interested than when I am watching action movies lol Great video man, keep it up :)
I've been playing a ton of Transport Fever 2, which is basically this game but without a grid and a more realistic, modern approach but since I kinda completed it I wanted to check the original out. Thank you for this video, very straightforward and simple while being just calm and nice. Appreciate you and your effort :)
Ahh, so that's how you quit out the game without force closing it. I could not figure it out :) There is a lot of retro UI and other things that make this game intimidating to learn. This tutorial has made me want to give it another go as i get the feeling it will be rewarding after getting over the steep learning curve. Thanks
Been playing this game since about 97. And granted openTTD introduced a lot more benefits again since, I did learn a lot from your videos with the short cuts ie deleting section of tracks and the signals. So thank you 👍
@@TimberwolfK mean back when it was first out there was only the default how-to and I never had a manual so I just kinda figured it out 😂 least I won’t be destroying whole junctions now for the sake of 1x bit of rail sticking out 😂 👍👍
iv'e been looking for potential games to play with my brother since he's on Mac OS and not many games work on that decided to give this one a try, the game doesn't really give you any tutorials and is a bit overwhelming at least now i have a bit of an idea on how to get started, very clear video, thanks
Great tut thank you!!! Interesting game, Ive started playing yesterday and was so confused about how it works but after few hours I got a liitle into it and its getting better and Im starting enjoying it...
Played games since Amigas/Commodores in the 80's across consoles from just about every console-maker upto the PS5 and some of the most advanced triple-A games on the current market, and also as an avid PC gamer throughout, always having a mid to high end GFX capable PC. At my age now, not many games I turn back to for some temporary fun and their replayabiilty value - maybe GTA3/GTA:VC/GTA:SA, C&C RA3, but the top of the tree would still be TTD or now as OpenTTD. OpenTTD and TTD has occupied more of my time than anything else combined without the advent of multiplayer causing you to sink man-hours after expiring the single-person campaigns, and we're talking hundreds of titles spanning ten's and ten's of consoles and pretty much every genre. May even fire up Far Cry 3 just to run the campaign but TTD is just one of those addictive beasts that I've not been able to put down, ever. As I sit and watch this video just for kicks, I think what game would I like to fire up for some escapism. Phenomenal that TTD would still be the top of the tree just for single-person play and self-satisfaction considering what we have and have had out there gaming wise over the last 40 - 50 years (and I have my custom PC with an RTX 3080 Ti so able to play 'almost' anything decently).
The TTD Manual! I'd like to say i still have mine, but it may have ended up in the game manual graveyard in the sky! :D I've probably been playing getting on for 30 years myself from the original, to the original + world editor, to Deluxe, to OpenTTD :)
12:35 and 16:10 Do the various stations have to be directly at the end of a road or can the stations and other building such as the power plant recognize a road running along side it?
I played this as a kid and I play this as an adult. Friends are wondering why I play such an pixeled old game nobody asked for. The answer is "why not?".
hello, i hope you read this comments. i am a bit confused about vehicle group to add shared vehicle. when i try, it doesn't work. after looking for the cause, some say this is a bug so this feature doesn't work. for some things I still don't understand, maybe you have a way to overcome this or if I missed the video that has been discussed, please reply to the comments because I am quite frustrated with this feature. for the record, I'm using openttd 12.2 steam windows. Thank you.
Difficult to say as I'm not sure from the description what exactly you're trying to do. For me it always works fine when I press ctrl and drag the vehicles between groups, all shared vehicles move with them. The best thing might be to record a short video of it not working and ask on the OpenTTD Reddit (www.reddit.com/r/openttd), they are generally pretty good at figuring out what's going on given some screenshots and video.
You look a lot different than I expected irl. Was kind of expecting an Old Etonian scholar in a university gown and hat, or an actual Timberwolf, with pointy ears and waggly tail.... Yes, I have a weird imagination :D
Why even have a thick booklet for it,well yeah it's okay i don't even know how to manage 10 trains at a 3 track station:/ I wish pelya(the porter of OpenTTD to android) and the PC OpenTTD adds more features it's okay to add stuff as long as it is in within approvement of the copyright law which states not a similar single line of original code is supposed to be used,I really wish for more cargo and trains including complex rail control like the one with rail switches which changes the track etc.
It's one of those topics which probably could do with more tutorials, but is cursed for video by so many of the details being different depending on what operating system you're running, what version of OpenTTD, and even how it's installed. (Even I took a while to figure it out the last time I got a dedicated server running, because fresh installs on Linux use different locations to ones done over an existing older version). I'd probably end up confusing as many people as I help, because the places where I need to put files on my install would be different to where they need to!
Goods should go to a big enough town (4-8 office buildings within the station catchment area, or one warehouse). Food to towns in desert or above the snowline - usually they don't need to be particularly big before they start accepting food.
The original game is very much one of those, "you did read the manual while this was installing, right?" designs. Given I started with a demo version and no manual, I spent a lot of time going out of business. On the other hand, it's not as steep as firing up X-Com: Terror From The Deep without any prior knowledge...
This voice is the most clear and professional narrator i have ever heard, learned a lot from this video, thank you for uploading
I agree so much! ❤
reminds me of Ringo's narration on Thomas & Friends
right? sounds like those English textbook listening excercises
I wish multiplayer was more active. It's good that your trying to show everyone how to play. Well done!
There's a lot of good stuff out there, but the difficulty for new players is there have been a few UI changes in the past couple of releases and a lot of the older tutorials don't match up with what you see on screen if you download the game for the first time.
@@TimberwolfK I just downloaded it, Thanks for the tutorial.
Usually there is plenty of public servers to join (sort by number of clients)
I've been seeing a bunch of people playing Multi-player lately. I've been playing a bunch of a "micro city builder" mode that somebody set up and it is pretty fun when you get more than one player in.
Rules for it are simple: Every company starts by placing their HQ in a town under 800 pop (can't be a "city" designation) and has to be the first to grow that city to a population of 3k by making monthly deliveries of passengers, mall, and goods that increase as the population increases.
A typical game lasts anywhere from an 45 minutes to an hour, but with how small the map is, you'll be seeing a bunch of interesting connected company networks in it.
There's also a very popular Reddit server I've found that's pretty fun. It's basically just default settings from 1940 - 2050, with cargo distribution on for passenger mail, and valuables (passengers and mail have specific locations they want to travel to and won't just board or load on to any vehicle, unless it's going to where they want to).
The best introductory tutorial for openTTD I have seen by far! Thanks.
I love you voice and intonation! Kudos!
Your voice is like a warm blanket on a cold night, like a gentle breeze on a hot day, like a soothing melody on a stressful one. I could listen to you for hours and never get bored. You have the most relaxing and calming voice I have ever heard. Thank you for sharing your gift with us. You are amazing!
You're all so lovely about it! I still think of it as at best functional, in that I can get information out of my head and into the heads of the people around me with a sort of 60-70% success rate :D
@@TimberwolfK bro is hard deflecting all compliments 😭
The fact that you have NO ANNOYING MUSIC in your video got my like and subscription -- I'm downloading the game via 'Steam' as I watch this. Hopefully any other videos/guides you've made for this game are as good...thank you for your time and assistance.
The english, they try and get you with their voice, better be careful.
I was patiently watching until the video suddenly ended and I realised a full 45 minutes had passed. Good job for making such a long and technical video feel so short and concise!
You and Master Hellish have been insanely helpful with your videos on getting new players a decent understanding of the game.
Much appreciated!
I am 16 year's old and i fwiking addicted in this nostalgic game, I don't know some other mechanics in game but thanks for the informative tutorials. The complexity of the game specially the train's makes me want to play this game more, and its satisfying for me to see the smooth flow of junctions and complex station works. Sigh if only the game improve the graphics it will be much fun but the online content are still very good tho, and the multiplayer is not that much active but it was very fun than playing with ai I'll try to join in the discord in hopes to find player's want to play multiplayer.
Regarding graphics: Search for a graphics pack called "zBase". This is an outstanding change to the game imho!
Have you started using mods (aka GRFs or "game scripts") already?
@@domisPL_01 yes.l, try some of mods, game script, and buildings/roads texture pack, it makes my gameplay more fun and entertaining
@@aloffvalkyrie4001 cool. If you havent already then try game script "Renewed Village Growth" along with GRF "FIRS" (v3 or 4) 👍
Your voice is so… satisfying. Your accent, the calm tone of voice…
I feel like I could listen to you talk about grass and brick walls for five hours. Low-key, you should do ASMR or a podcast.
Came here from a playlist about RoboCorp RPA development, in which it's the final video. I have no idea why, but I stuck around longer than I needed to simply because you have a pleasant voice and pedagogical way of explaining things. I only wish it was relevant for me, hehe. Godspeed!
Great tutorial! I have a friend that was playing it in one of the Discord's I frequent. I wanted to learn but the old one's I found were not very concise or interesting/easy to follow. This really helps me get motivated to try and learn this game despite missing this gem when it came out.
Dude's voice made me fasten my seat belt during take-off and landing & put my phone into airplane mode 🗿👍
Nice change, usually it's my driving style that does that...
On the Steam discussions for OpenTTD, one of the {Developers} reference this video as still being the best tutorial of this game to date. You made what I thought was a ridiculously complex game, actually seem manageable and fun. Bravo man.
The devs are great people, I submitted some code a few years back and enjoyed the discussions and code reviews.
I think you've really nailed the balance between comprensiveness and comprehensability, and I that the concluding message of "experiment more yourself" is a very important part of the game that many tutorials (by nature let's be fair) do not really tell you.
On top of that it is also a really well structured yet very naturally flowing piece of video which in my opinion deserves some praise!
If I had to criticise you on one part though it would be the use of "lane" over track, I just cannot let that one slide! :P
As a little post scriptum; this tutorial really made me realise how many little quality of life improvements the game has seen in just the past couple of years.
Your voice and articulation are a delight to hear!
Not finished the video yet but I wanted to say thank you for these OpenTTD videos. I really like the science videos that show some mechanics and thoughts behind building your network. Also, the MS store image cracked me up so much that I have tea on my hoodie now - thanks a lot for that
I really love your voice. That soft british accent makes me think I'm a young child, watching some british infomercial or something like that. It's really soothing, and helps me learn.
Thanks for the railway info, my railway was always not working since the tutorial I watch are the old once. With the new tutorial of yours is the one I'm looking for. Thank you so much.
This was such a pleasant and informative way to learn about a complicated game. I had tried playing before but it was too intimidating, but now that I've watched this video I found the game approachable and fun. Thank you!
Your narration reminds me of old ingame tutorials, e.g. in the old Lego games like Legoland! Beautiful!
I wish my chemistry teacher was at least half as a good teacher as you are. I'd win a Nobel prize in chemistry. Thnx!
I'm playing my very first OpenTTD game and you are awesome!
This may be weird but I could sit and peacefully fall asleep to your voice. You're perfect for those nature or history documentaries I fall asleep to all the time.
It's amazing game! Since my dad showed me this game when I was 6 I like it and play it, when I have time. This game is about 2 years older than me, it's still getting updates!
What a great, great tutorial! I’ve watched a lot of this type of video over the years and this was really well executed. Thanks for taking the time to share.
Very concise! Been playing for only two days now and this helped me filled a lot of gaps I haven't been able to experiment myself, thanks!
23:55 reliability is very important too. Trains breaking down can really bring a line to a grinding halt.
I have no idea why but I just watched a 45 minute tutorial video and I was more interested than when I am watching action movies lol
Great video man, keep it up :)
Ive played this game since I was kid and I learned some new things even here
Excellent tutorial!
Excellent tutorial! And I love that you have a copy of the original game's manual.
I have the whole game even down to the technical supplement and registration card! It's my original copy from back in 1995...
What a fantastic video. I thought this game was going to be too hard for me to play but you have given me the confidence to play it!
I've been playing a ton of Transport Fever 2, which is basically this game but without a grid and a more realistic, modern approach but since I kinda completed it I wanted to check the original out. Thank you for this video, very straightforward and simple while being just calm and nice. Appreciate you and your effort :)
Ahh, so that's how you quit out the game without force closing it. I could not figure it out :)
There is a lot of retro UI and other things that make this game intimidating to learn. This tutorial has made me want to give it another go as i get the feeling it will be rewarding after getting over the steep learning curve. Thanks
Retro UI?
Now you make me feel old, youngster! :D
Thank you I had no idea how to play and I already love it
Been playing this game since about 97. And granted openTTD introduced a lot more benefits again since, I did learn a lot from your videos with the short cuts ie deleting section of tracks and the signals. So thank you 👍
I think there's at least one thing in there I only learnt while I was researching the tutorial!
@@TimberwolfK mean back when it was first out there was only the default how-to and I never had a manual so I just kinda figured it out 😂 least I won’t be destroying whole junctions now for the sake of 1x bit of rail sticking out 😂 👍👍
iv'e been looking for potential games to play with my brother since he's on Mac OS and not many games work on that
decided to give this one a try, the game doesn't really give you any tutorials and is a bit overwhelming
at least now i have a bit of an idea on how to get started, very clear video, thanks
Great tut thank you!!! Interesting game, Ive started playing yesterday and was so confused about how it works but after few hours I got a liitle into it and its getting better and Im starting enjoying it...
I've been playing this game for about 3 years now, and you still taught me a hell of a lot of new stuff. Cheers!
I must say, this is a wonderful tutorial, and you have a such a lovely voice for voiceover.
What a great video, I'm going to have so much fun playing this thanks to you!
Great video! Thank you. I had no idea what to do with train signals before watching it.
Great video. Your voice is very soothing. Though when you talked about signals I had a nervous breakdown. 😢
This game is so confusing but you made everything clear thanks so much!
Played games since Amigas/Commodores in the 80's across consoles from just about every console-maker upto the PS5 and some of the most advanced triple-A games on the current market, and also as an avid PC gamer throughout, always having a mid to high end GFX capable PC. At my age now, not many games I turn back to for some temporary fun and their replayabiilty value - maybe GTA3/GTA:VC/GTA:SA, C&C RA3, but the top of the tree would still be TTD or now as OpenTTD. OpenTTD and TTD has occupied more of my time than anything else combined without the advent of multiplayer causing you to sink man-hours after expiring the single-person campaigns, and we're talking hundreds of titles spanning ten's and ten's of consoles and pretty much every genre. May even fire up Far Cry 3 just to run the campaign but TTD is just one of those addictive beasts that I've not been able to put down, ever. As I sit and watch this video just for kicks, I think what game would I like to fire up for some escapism. Phenomenal that TTD would still be the top of the tree just for single-person play and self-satisfaction considering what we have and have had out there gaming wise over the last 40 - 50 years (and I have my custom PC with an RTX 3080 Ti so able to play 'almost' anything decently).
ive played this back in the 2000s and i have no clue how tf I learned/played it all by myself back then, now I'm re-learning from the internet
town mayor: can you please transport passengers from these two towns
transport CEO: alright *starts demolishing houses to fit stations*
What a fantastic tutorial. I am now finally able to start my own first playthrough. Thank you.
that's a great tutorial and I love listening to your voice :D
Very clear and easy to understand. Best video for this stuff.
Awesome tutorial, finally got a basic understanding of the game, many thanks!
The TTD Manual!
I'd like to say i still have mine, but it may have ended up in the game manual graveyard in the sky! :D
I've probably been playing getting on for 30 years myself from the original, to the original + world editor, to Deluxe, to OpenTTD :)
What an amazing tutorial. Thank you so much for putting this together! =)
this is so helpful and calming,thank you
Beautiful 101 on many levels!
This is very good. I have played this before but it gave new ideas.
I alreayd know how to play, but for some reasons I enjoy looking at vidoe tutorials
ive played it since i was 5 its amazing good job with the tutorial
You are the David Attenborough of OpenTTD.
This was superrrr great explained!!! Thank you :)
Prefect video! Helped me start my transporting dreams!
Airport investors: ez money
Also you can build company's headquarters under your boss biography.
12:35 and 16:10 Do the various stations have to be directly at the end of a road or can the stations and other building such as the power plant recognize a road running along side it?
Fuck you have a great accent, microphone and clear voice for explaining. It's insane. You probably don't even realize it.
Thank you sooo much, this tutorial was so useful !!
this guy could explain something like plastic bottle manufacturing techniques and i would still be interested
The worrying thing is, this guy might well do that....
Thank you so much! Thanks to you, I'll have fun with the game instead of getting frustrated :D
This was such a useful turtorial thank you!
I played this as a kid and I play this as an adult. Friends are wondering why I play such an pixeled old game nobody asked for. The answer is "why not?".
16:11 “sometimes you may want to demolish a house to get a bus stop in just the right place, which the BOMB toll is excellent for.”
Thanks for this tutorial video. I was wondering how to play this game :).
Excellent tutorial. 👍 I've been playing this off and on since 2004 with FIRS Industries. It never gets boring.
Excellent! Great video mate!
Best tutorial ever. I feel like doing toefl listening section😂
i tried to set up a coal to powerplant but they keep going between the coal and the depot and not going to powerplant nvm the orientation was wrong
Nice job bro and a lot of thx for new players 🎉
why 180 tonnes train for 128 tonnes of iron?
drag to get multiple signals... omg.. solved my train issue.. feel dumb now. Well thx :D
hello, i hope you read this comments.
i am a bit confused about vehicle group to add shared vehicle. when i try, it doesn't work.
after looking for the cause, some say this is a bug so this feature doesn't work.
for some things I still don't understand, maybe you have a way to overcome this or if I missed the video that has been discussed,
please reply to the comments because I am quite frustrated with this feature.
for the record, I'm using openttd 12.2 steam windows.
Thank you.
Difficult to say as I'm not sure from the description what exactly you're trying to do. For me it always works fine when I press ctrl and drag the vehicles between groups, all shared vehicles move with them.
The best thing might be to record a short video of it not working and ask on the OpenTTD Reddit (www.reddit.com/r/openttd), they are generally pretty good at figuring out what's going on given some screenshots and video.
Ahh oke, thanks.
I've been playing this game for years, and I never knew anything about how to decide how long of trains to use or which industries to connect to. xD
I appolagise for it but i prefer using RMB to drag the world like a window
Thank you for wonderful guide!
Best tutorial ever!!
Great job with this video!
Thanks for explaining paths.
When i started to construct new railway station ,its not showing engine in train depot can someone please help me
You have a beautiful voice thanks for the tutorial 😊
thank you, i really like this game
Been playing this game for over 3 years and I'm vividly upset I didn't know about shared orders.
Thank you for you tutorial. I just download yesterday this game and I was a bit, lost
You look a lot different than I expected irl. Was kind of expecting an Old Etonian scholar in a university gown and hat, or an actual Timberwolf, with pointy ears and waggly tail.... Yes, I have a weird imagination :D
your voice is perfect for videos!
How do you impliment dynamic cargo?
If you are on Linux, the game should be available in your distro’s package repo.
This is what Transport Fever 2 should have been
7:48 😂😂😂😂😂im sory im fried and this was hilarious. but great video
Why even have a thick booklet for it,well yeah it's okay i don't even know how to manage 10 trains at a 3 track station:/
I wish pelya(the porter of OpenTTD to android) and the PC OpenTTD adds more features it's okay to add stuff as long as it is in within approvement of the copyright law which states not a similar single line of original code is supposed to be used,I really wish for more cargo and trains including complex rail control like the one with rail switches which changes the track etc.
Probably won't read this, but if you do, could you please make a video on downloading and using NewGRF's from external websites? Thanks!
It's one of those topics which probably could do with more tutorials, but is cursed for video by so many of the details being different depending on what operating system you're running, what version of OpenTTD, and even how it's installed. (Even I took a while to figure it out the last time I got a dedicated server running, because fresh installs on Linux use different locations to ones done over an existing older version). I'd probably end up confusing as many people as I help, because the places where I need to put files on my install would be different to where they need to!
Once you produce goods or food, where to you transport them to?
Goods should go to a big enough town (4-8 office buildings within the station catchment area, or one warehouse). Food to towns in desert or above the snowline - usually they don't need to be particularly big before they start accepting food.
Thank you for your guide.
i would love to play the game but i just dont understand it
Steep learning curve.
The original game is very much one of those, "you did read the manual while this was installing, right?" designs. Given I started with a demo version and no manual, I spent a lot of time going out of business.
On the other hand, it's not as steep as firing up X-Com: Terror From The Deep without any prior knowledge...