I dont even think you needed to give such a long answer for 'why not play otb', it requires scheduling of 2 people which just isnt easy, online is instantaneous at any time (obviously there is a Q time, but its far quicker than driving somewhere to play otb)
for sure, there are many more factors to it than that though & wanted to talk about it longer because it seems to go over peoples heads. i always get the question "why don't you try getting a title" in videos & lots of Europeans and North Americans just don't really understand how expensive and inconvenient that would be living in Australia just getting from tournament to tournament.
@@jacksarkisian Please also do not spout nonsense about 99% of the world being "not safe" for otb. The simple reason is, online is immediate and otb does not come even close to this aspect and people from two different parts of the world can play and also become friends.
It's hard to believe that algorithms can reliably detect a skilled cheater. If someone uses a weaker chess engine than Stockfish, even an outdated version, and avoids the top recommended moves, they could still win while the detection systems report low accuracy, not identifying it as computer aid. Computers have been beating world champions since 1997, and modern engines don't even consider those older moves optimal anymore. So, relying on algorithms to catch a smart cheater is practically impossible.
They can't even detect their bots as cheating, and it's why I think that cheating is more prevalent at lower levels with lower accuracy than publicly available information. If you are at 1000 ELO you just have to pick a 1500 ELO bot and you'll win the majority of your games, and like you say outside engines mean that it'll be difficult to police that as well.
14:47 a better way would be to grade each account on the accuracy of its reports. If a random 1000 elo player is correct 90% of the time in identifying cheater, his account should have a higher trust factor than say Kramnik's account who has a terrible success rate and just reports anyone without any proof or evidence. Over time the more trust worthy accounts will point the anti cheat team to more likely cheaters making the system more efficient
this is a great idea actually. i know a lot of games use a "karma" system with reports to stop players from spam reporting everyone they verse. would be great to see a similar system built in for Chess.com!
@@jacksarkisian Thank you for replying. Same here :-) Also streaming. You get to know the community. In addition I'm a member of the Chess Dojo and there I really do trust the fellow students 🙂
Yeah that over the board chess thing sucks, where there is not enough opponents.... In NZ opponents are not the problem but their rating is 900 for most and haven't taken lessons like I have so only one game and then they never play me ever again 😂😂😭😭😭
Wait wut - linking the active or most recent game(s) with a complaint should be an obvious, easy, and quick IT solution! The game(s) check can then be automated without requiring substantial resources, perhaps during off-peak hours. How has this not been implemented (?!)
its a good question. my best guess is that for the past X years Chess.com has almost solely been putting their effort into perfecting their anti cheat. now that they've gotten it to a point they're happy with they've started to look at optimizing other things too. i guess if your goal has been to get an anti cheat to cover all bases it wouldn't be crazy to overlook something as simple as this feature 🤷
I would like to be able to restrict playing new accounts created within one year of my account, over time it will filter out more and more accounts which are cheating if they employ other methods of banning accounts which are cheating. It does mean that for the first year you are in the Wild West a bit more, but it's unlikely everyone will filter that way. I recently reported a player who had at 700 ELO in a tournament won 15 games in a row with 90+ accuracy, even though his usual accuracy was 40-60%. The account was still live months after I checked with a nice diamond next to it still. It doesn't seem difficult to pick up on a new player or a low ELO player, or any player having 10+ wins in a row or a sudden extreme jump in accuracy for a period of time.
The number of people justifiying themselves with the "improvement" excuse is absurd. This is the most pathetic and nonsense reason and they should be ashamed. You're bad, you will never improve and you're clowns
i mean any cheating in general is super disappointing - but convincing yourself its for "improvement sake" is just depressing. if you want to verse harder players play open unrated challenges against them, or play against tough engines offline. gaming the system will never get anyone far.
Yep, this is literally what "game review" is for. Checking where you went wrong with an engine after a game is a great way to study the lines you missed. I don't see how cheating during the game would even help. 🤷
It might seem a bit strong, but I genuinely feel like cheating in any game is just one of the saddest things for a person to do in life. It's a game, so it's meant to be something you do for fun, and not even important, ultimately - if you can't even face losing a Chess game on fair terms, what does that say about your approach to self-improvement in literally anything of actual importance in your life, or your honesty and trustworthiness in general? If something is hard, it's a great opportunity to push yourself to get better at it. If that doesn't interest you, then perhaps it's just not the right hobby for you in the first place? 🤷
One of the things i found while going down the cheater rabbit hole is they dont all just use an engine, those are the ones who cheat at higher level. Theres A LOT of cheaters that cheat for the exact reasons you mention here(they think they didnt deserve to lose elo, and want it back quickly). They use an engine that can be tuned by level, and say theyre 1000elo they can set it to 1800 and are almost certainly not going to get caught(unless the program is recognized, which is avoidable). Chesscom also definitely needs to be more strict and not give so many chances, it should be auto ban. Id say the main reason for cheating is the eagerness/tilt theory you mention here, meaning its largely intermittent and often the engine isnt used for most of the game.
I have degree in data science, I do know math and data. U did fine in first video. Even we as professionals not 100% accurate it is not possible. Edit: If I was 100% accurate all the time, I would sell ticket to my show which I perform 100% accuracy right after my flying trick.
automation is definitely the end goal - but i'd rather see semi-automation if it means reducing false bans. most of us don't realise how frustrating a false ban would be until it happens to us, definitely not something i want to see on the platform either.
for the next couple of months maybe, but when Chess.com roll out their planned updates the information in this video won't be useful for cheaters. everything else has been public knowledge just maybe not common knowledge. for what its worth everything in this video has been cleared by Kassa and isn't sensitive information that shouldn't be public knowledge 👍
I know of several people who simply play and cheat for maybe 10 games and then they close the account and do it all over again. ELO stealers! You have no way to get those points back even though there is blatant cheating there. Maybe you can do an experiment, make a new account, and just play engine moves, winning, seeing how long it actually takes them to catch you. The people would get their elo back. I know this isn't really doable, but there is probably someway of doing it if you really think about it. Maybe just play your friend. Good video!
it blows my mind they don't analyse the game that was reported as cheating! Surely there is a way of at the very least sampling that data based on compute resource and then doing a deeper dive into accounts which get flagged as cheating. It seems the process could be streamline to auto check that game, if positive flag and run a deeper auto analysis of the account, and then pass to a human to make a final decision. Also if you report a game as cheating and it isn't then you should probably not have your reports considered for a reasonable amount of time, again I would base this on a resource queue. Even if full account ban action isn't taken for case of cheating a ban scale can be imposed for first, second, third detections, say 1 day, 1 week, 1 month and then an account closure.
If you want to face stronger opponents on cdc you don't have to cheat. Aside from challenging stronger opponents, many tournaments and club games will pit you against stronger opponents, especially if you are actively seeking them out.
manually banning a handful of players from my last video isn't going to solve the problem for other people, nor for me over the next 100 games i play. would much rather they work on tangible solutions 👍
@@jacksarkisian that goes without saying , i'm trying to highlight the fact that they said they watched your video , yet no action was done in relation to video , which leads me to believe they didn't watch it or maybe have a different system i guess. I think the solution for cheaters starts with some sort of ID Hardware / Browser fingerprint ban once they are caught , because what happens like you said , people just make new accounts and start over again , and ofc they get better at cheating with time , so a more effective ban system is necessary . Also when it comes to detection , some sort of tribunal could be used ( back in the day in league of legends we had a system were trusted old players could vote on games , wether this person cheated or not ) . The final idea is ofc refining the algorithm itself to detect impossible moves that are simply too hard to find for a human . fun vid btw
Is it possible someone cheating in bullet formats? Sometimes i found a player with 100-200 below my rating did a ridiculous moves. Or they just sandbagger...
I thought about whether I should try cheating some time ago. I wanted to play against 2000+ players and think about what move I wanted to make and then see if the computer liked it and if not then think about why not and find another one. I wanted to make a separate account for that but then I thought about it and decided to leave it out. Now I'm 1800
Yes I understand how you feal becouse in canada were I am at dose not have a big culture hear in canada and ok if pepole are going to say you have eric and amann ok quick question name me a curant canada gm not these two go ahead so yah evan though canada pretty big we still don't have a good chess culture.
i definitely don't delete any of my comments on these videos. you can go to my last video & see comments disagreeing with my points that i've liked & replied to - you just don't really see them because no one else is liking them 🤷
YT deletes comments automatically that use certain aggressive language, especially if the person has been noticed to comment like this frequently. The algo for auto deIete is very unforgiving. My advice, attempt to be less confrontational and recognize what would trigger it and find ways to get around those words, using lower case L in place of upper case i or vice versa for example.
@@billythekid-bestservant1 I can't remember what I wrote exactly but I'm 99% sure I didn't use any foul word. But basically my point was that there is no evidence of fewer cheaters on Lichess, and saying "from what I can tell" is not acceptable evidence if you don't back it up with data. Lichess being free means that they have less resource to allocate for anti-cheat, so it might seem like there are fewer cheater simply because more of them are never caught.
@@thomapple So it happened to you as well. Let me tell you my story. I like commenting other youtube videos on every genre, including chess and my fav game, dota and FGO. I commented on so many videos, and sometimes youtube somehow deleted your commend for no reason. It's like it's not exist in the first place. My theory is this. Maybe you went from 1 video to other too fast, and it basically automatically confirm you as spamming. My solution to you is that you should delete the recent comments on other videos, and then after that, I think it will be fine.
@@jacksarkisianyeah he laid it on thick. Almost like an attorney defending a high profile client. Psychology professionals will tell you "elaborate details" are strong indicators of hiding guilt. That's what made me pause. I wouldn't be surprised if he has in the past but not necessarily when Vlad thought he was.
@@ptd570 Yeah, I wouldn't generally give Kramnik a moment of thought with all the random allegations, and Danya isn't someone I'd ever feel suspicious about in the first place, but honestly, Danya's responses do seem a little weirdly over-defensive, which is a maybe a bit... Interesting? At this point, I'd think being accused of cheating by Kramnik would be something you could just laugh off and take as a badge of honour. 😛
@@ryanyt6971 If you are a GM with a brand just one accusation can ruin you! I think Danya is so frustrated and nice that he really doesn't know what else to do so he does what anyone would do and that is to defend themselves. Kramnik is just a troll who wants to be relevant again in the chess world by accusing every single player there is of cheating! Typical Russian disinformation going on!
@@Doulos-y7n Sure, but I don't see anyone (apart from maybe Nepo!) taking the Danya thing seriously, so I don't think he has much to worry about. Hikaru made a running joke of it when Kramnik was accusing him, and it doesn't seem to have done him any harm. 🙃
Yeah, I thought that had to be a joke. 9/10 of my reports on cdc result in a ban eventually, on lichess it's literally 0/10. Unless their every move is an engine move, lichess doesn't care.
@@SoDamnMetal 100% ...some time ago lichess bans some cheaters, but now zero response... and dont tell me :) that 1850 -1900 averege level is 90-97% + 12-20 centipawns
I dont even think you needed to give such a long answer for 'why not play otb', it requires scheduling of 2 people which just isnt easy, online is instantaneous at any time (obviously there is a Q time, but its far quicker than driving somewhere to play otb)
for sure, there are many more factors to it than that though & wanted to talk about it longer because it seems to go over peoples heads. i always get the question "why don't you try getting a title" in videos & lots of Europeans and North Americans just don't really understand how expensive and inconvenient that would be living in Australia just getting from tournament to tournament.
@@jacksarkisian Please also do not spout nonsense about 99% of the world being "not safe" for otb. The simple reason is, online is immediate and otb does not come even close to this aspect and people from two different parts of the world can play and also become friends.
It's hard to believe that algorithms can reliably detect a skilled cheater. If someone uses a weaker chess engine than Stockfish, even an outdated version, and avoids the top recommended moves, they could still win while the detection systems report low accuracy, not identifying it as computer aid. Computers have been beating world champions since 1997, and modern engines don't even consider those older moves optimal anymore. So, relying on algorithms to catch a smart cheater is practically impossible.
They can't even detect their bots as cheating, and it's why I think that cheating is more prevalent at lower levels with lower accuracy than publicly available information. If you are at 1000 ELO you just have to pick a 1500 ELO bot and you'll win the majority of your games, and like you say outside engines mean that it'll be difficult to police that as well.
If a
@@CGoody564Gothamchess said something like this on Lex Friedman's show: only dumb cheaters use the top recommendations every time.
5:24 bro isn’t there massive spiders and other Australian monster creatures
14:47 a better way would be to grade each account on the accuracy of its reports. If a random 1000 elo player is correct 90% of the time in identifying cheater, his account should have a higher trust factor than say Kramnik's account who has a terrible success rate and just reports anyone without any proof or evidence. Over time the more trust worthy accounts will point the anti cheat team to more likely cheaters making the system more efficient
this is a great idea actually. i know a lot of games use a "karma" system with reports to stop players from spam reporting everyone they verse. would be great to see a similar system built in for Chess.com!
So good to have friends that you can trust and play with, the more the better 🙂
100%, thankfully i know a lot of people near my rating because i stream & make videos. makes playing casual Chess much more enjoyable!
@@jacksarkisian Thank you for replying. Same here :-) Also streaming. You get to know the community. In addition I'm a member of the Chess Dojo and there I really do trust the fellow students 🙂
Thanks for this enjoyable video again. Similarly, it was also very informative!
Yeah that over the board chess thing sucks, where there is not enough opponents.... In NZ opponents are not the problem but their rating is 900 for most and haven't taken lessons like I have so only one game and then they never play me ever again 😂😂😭😭😭
yeah isolated island nations must be so much worse than Australia. imagine that 1 Chess prodigy living at Point Nemo 😭😭
Wait wut - linking the active or most recent game(s) with a complaint should be an obvious, easy, and quick IT solution! The game(s) check can then be automated without requiring substantial resources, perhaps during off-peak hours. How has this not been implemented (?!)
its a good question. my best guess is that for the past X years Chess.com has almost solely been putting their effort into perfecting their anti cheat. now that they've gotten it to a point they're happy with they've started to look at optimizing other things too. i guess if your goal has been to get an anti cheat to cover all bases it wouldn't be crazy to overlook something as simple as this feature 🤷
I would like to be able to restrict playing new accounts created within one year of my account, over time it will filter out more and more accounts which are cheating if they employ other methods of banning accounts which are cheating. It does mean that for the first year you are in the Wild West a bit more, but it's unlikely everyone will filter that way. I recently reported a player who had at 700 ELO in a tournament won 15 games in a row with 90+ accuracy, even though his usual accuracy was 40-60%. The account was still live months after I checked with a nice diamond next to it still. It doesn't seem difficult to pick up on a new player or a low ELO player, or any player having 10+ wins in a row or a sudden extreme jump in accuracy for a period of time.
The number of people justifiying themselves with the "improvement" excuse is absurd. This is the most pathetic and nonsense reason and they should be ashamed. You're bad, you will never improve and you're clowns
i mean any cheating in general is super disappointing - but convincing yourself its for "improvement sake" is just depressing. if you want to verse harder players play open unrated challenges against them, or play against tough engines offline. gaming the system will never get anyone far.
Yep, this is literally what "game review" is for. Checking where you went wrong with an engine after a game is a great way to study the lines you missed. I don't see how cheating during the game would even help. 🤷
It might seem a bit strong, but I genuinely feel like cheating in any game is just one of the saddest things for a person to do in life. It's a game, so it's meant to be something you do for fun, and not even important, ultimately - if you can't even face losing a Chess game on fair terms, what does that say about your approach to self-improvement in literally anything of actual importance in your life, or your honesty and trustworthiness in general? If something is hard, it's a great opportunity to push yourself to get better at it. If that doesn't interest you, then perhaps it's just not the right hobby for you in the first place? 🤷
@@ryanyt6971 I try very hard to understand their point but I don't get it. All those wins mean nothing, they will get crushed otb over and over
One of the things i found while going down the cheater rabbit hole is they dont all just use an engine, those are the ones who cheat at higher level. Theres A LOT of cheaters that cheat for the exact reasons you mention here(they think they didnt deserve to lose elo, and want it back quickly). They use an engine that can be tuned by level, and say theyre 1000elo they can set it to 1800 and are almost certainly not going to get caught(unless the program is recognized, which is avoidable). Chesscom also definitely needs to be more strict and not give so many chances, it should be auto ban. Id say the main reason for cheating is the eagerness/tilt theory you mention here, meaning its largely intermittent and often the engine isnt used for most of the game.
Way to jack 👏, a very well put together video.
thankyou bro
it’s not a problem for the site, only for their members.
I have degree in data science, I do know math and data. U did fine in first video. Even we as professionals not 100% accurate it is not possible.
Edit: If I was 100% accurate all the time, I would sell ticket to my show which I perform 100% accuracy right after my flying trick.
They just have to automate the process more and revamp their website. They should keep an eye on new accounts especially.
automation is definitely the end goal - but i'd rather see semi-automation if it means reducing false bans. most of us don't realise how frustrating a false ban would be until it happens to us, definitely not something i want to see on the platform either.
Jack I feel like some of these questions are making it easier for cheaters to avoid sanctions
for the next couple of months maybe, but when Chess.com roll out their planned updates the information in this video won't be useful for cheaters. everything else has been public knowledge just maybe not common knowledge. for what its worth everything in this video has been cleared by Kassa and isn't sensitive information that shouldn't be public knowledge 👍
Sofia-Harrison is a cheateer
Ban her guys
I know of several people who simply play and cheat for maybe 10 games and then they close the account and do it all over again. ELO stealers! You have no way to get those points back even though there is blatant cheating there. Maybe you can do an experiment, make a new account, and just play engine moves, winning, seeing how long it actually takes them to catch you. The people would get their elo back. I know this isn't really doable, but there is probably someway of doing it if you really think about it. Maybe just play your friend. Good video!
Sir you are very methodical, all the best.
it blows my mind they don't analyse the game that was reported as cheating! Surely there is a way of at the very least sampling that data based on compute resource and then doing a deeper dive into accounts which get flagged as cheating. It seems the process could be streamline to auto check that game, if positive flag and run a deeper auto analysis of the account, and then pass to a human to make a final decision. Also if you report a game as cheating and it isn't then you should probably not have your reports considered for a reasonable amount of time, again I would base this on a resource queue. Even if full account ban action isn't taken for case of cheating a ban scale can be imposed for first, second, third detections, say 1 day, 1 week, 1 month and then an account closure.
You also have 3 time zones, Call out to Just One More Watch
If you want to face stronger opponents on cdc you don't have to cheat.
Aside from challenging stronger opponents, many tournaments and club games will pit you against stronger opponents, especially if you are actively seeking them out.
they watched your video but the guy in the last video wasn't banned
manually banning a handful of players from my last video isn't going to solve the problem for other people, nor for me over the next 100 games i play. would much rather they work on tangible solutions 👍
@@jacksarkisian that goes without saying , i'm trying to highlight the fact that they said they watched your video , yet no action was done in relation to video , which leads me to believe they didn't watch it or maybe have a different system i guess.
I think the solution for cheaters starts with some sort of ID Hardware / Browser fingerprint ban once they are caught , because what happens like you said , people just make new accounts and start over again , and ofc they get better at cheating with time , so a more effective ban system is necessary .
Also when it comes to detection , some sort of tribunal could be used ( back in the day in league of legends we had a system were trusted old players could vote on games , wether this person cheated or not ) .
The final idea is ofc refining the algorithm itself to detect impossible moves that are simply too hard to find for a human .
fun vid btw
What about hech 2 pawn?
i'm never living the haytch 4 thing down 💀💀
Claiming over the board chess is only conveniant for europeans and ozeania and NA is quiet a stretch, else I like the video a lot!
Is it possible someone cheating in bullet formats? Sometimes i found a player with 100-200 below my rating did a ridiculous moves. Or they just sandbagger...
I believe there are programmes cheat can use, there definitely used to be
@@animekurniawan6567 yes see the video of Andrew tang vs cheater
ofc,u can even cheat in ultra/hyperbullet
I thought about whether I should try cheating some time ago. I wanted to play against 2000+ players and think about what move I wanted to make and then see if the computer liked it and if not then think about why not and find another one. I wanted to make a separate account for that but then I thought about it and decided to leave it out. Now I'm 1800
jack you pronounced overarching incorrectily. 7:22 . i'm unsubbing
i swear thats how you say it 😭😭
He also said less rather than fewer... unsubbed!
Yes I understand how you feal becouse in canada were I am at dose not have a big culture hear in canada and ok if pepole are going to say you have eric and amann ok quick question name me a curant canada gm not these two go ahead so yah evan though canada pretty big we still don't have a good chess culture.
How cringe of you to delete comments who point out your logical fallacies
i definitely don't delete any of my comments on these videos. you can go to my last video & see comments disagreeing with my points that i've liked & replied to - you just don't really see them because no one else is liking them 🤷
YT deletes comments automatically that use certain aggressive language, especially if the person has been noticed to comment like this frequently. The algo for auto deIete is very unforgiving. My advice, attempt to be less confrontational and recognize what would trigger it and find ways to get around those words, using lower case L in place of upper case i or vice versa for example.
Probably too much use of foul language.
@@billythekid-bestservant1 I can't remember what I wrote exactly but I'm 99% sure I didn't use any foul word. But basically my point was that there is no evidence of fewer cheaters on Lichess, and saying "from what I can tell" is not acceptable evidence if you don't back it up with data. Lichess being free means that they have less resource to allocate for anti-cheat, so it might seem like there are fewer cheater simply because more of them are never caught.
@@thomapple So it happened to you as well. Let me tell you my story. I like commenting other youtube videos on every genre, including chess and my fav game, dota and FGO. I commented on so many videos, and sometimes youtube somehow deleted your commend for no reason. It's like it's not exist in the first place. My theory is this. Maybe you went from 1 video to other too fast, and it basically automatically confirm you as spamming. My solution to you is that you should delete the recent comments on other videos, and then after that, I think it will be fine.
Chess community loves watching sussy cheating videos 😂 joking
haha its certainly an interesting topic. poor danya though i felt so bad watching his stream yesterday responding to Kramnik :(
@@jacksarkisianyeah he laid it on thick. Almost like an attorney defending a high profile client. Psychology professionals will tell you "elaborate details" are strong indicators of hiding guilt. That's what made me pause. I wouldn't be surprised if he has in the past but not necessarily when Vlad thought he was.
@@ptd570 Yeah, I wouldn't generally give Kramnik a moment of thought with all the random allegations, and Danya isn't someone I'd ever feel suspicious about in the first place, but honestly, Danya's responses do seem a little weirdly over-defensive, which is a maybe a bit... Interesting? At this point, I'd think being accused of cheating by Kramnik would be something you could just laugh off and take as a badge of honour. 😛
@@ryanyt6971 If you are a GM with a brand just one accusation can ruin you! I think Danya is so frustrated and nice that he really doesn't know what else to do so he does what anyone would do and that is to defend themselves. Kramnik is just a troll who wants to be relevant again in the chess world by accusing every single player there is of cheating! Typical Russian disinformation going on!
@@Doulos-y7n Sure, but I don't see anyone (apart from maybe Nepo!) taking the Danya thing seriously, so I don't think he has much to worry about. Hikaru made a running joke of it when Kramnik was accusing him, and it doesn't seem to have done him any harm. 🙃
You should chillout a bit.
if you think this is bad you do NOT want to watch my streams 😭😭
first
🥇🥇
yeah right!!!! on lichess less cheaters? lol...36k subs but u tell as bullshit...!!! on lichess 1850-1900 are more stronger than 2000+, why??? lol
Yeah, I thought that had to be a joke. 9/10 of my reports on cdc result in a ban eventually, on lichess it's literally 0/10. Unless their every move is an engine move, lichess doesn't care.
Maybe you just suck!🤣
although I rarely play on lichess, I'm 2000 there. And I haven't met anyone I suspected of cheating
@@SoDamnMetal 100% ...some time ago lichess bans some cheaters, but now zero response... and dont tell me :) that 1850 -1900 averege level is 90-97% + 12-20 centipawns
I have some good games before 12centipawns or 16, but i can count those games on fingers....my elo 1950 -2080