Cliff, Tested and approved! Used a cheap oilstone and did what you did and what an improvement :) I had to speed up a little bit due to low tourque on my mini mill but still worked out great.And that nice feeling grinding on a wheel that actually runs true. Thanx again for the tip Thore
@@ThreadexpressI want to make some arbors for my Deckel SO. Do you think it's ok to make it from 1018 or do I need a higher carbon steel to heat treat it* - 1045 or 4140? *I don't have a heat treat oven nor a big oxy torch to get it hot enough. Steel (at least in the USA) is ridiculously expensive at the moment (despite the global steel trade collapse) so I'd like to use the cheapest possible. 1018, then 1045, then 4140. Are you considering selling them? If so, drop a note and we can chat offline.
Hi @@rallymax2 Yes steel in NZ is even more expensive. You don't really need to harden the Arbors or Arbor Nuts, they are not subject to extreme wear and tear and full hardening would mean distortion of the Arbors and so a need to then cylindrically grind them. From memory I only fully hardened the Arbor Nuts, and just tempered my Arbors to make them look pretty. So, I think 1018 would be ok - 1045 would be better, 4140 would be even better but a bigger job to machine it down. Cheers, Cliff
This was pure gold! as a hobbyist with limited budget I have also a few of these cheap diamond wheels and mine are also shockingly out of roundness. Finding videos like this is what make this hobby so much fun ! so today I will go down in my workshop and try out your method and if time allows I might make a tool for a tool that I will never use :) Thanks for sharing ,your videos are very educational and I am so grateful that there is so many skilled machinists out there who take the time to produce videos and share their wisdom to the rest of us. Merry Chrismas from Norway :)
Excellent video. I've been in the trade for 42 years. I've done a lot of cutter grinding but have never bought the cheap wheels from China. However, I have just retired and am buying a used Deckel grinder (Cheap) for my garage, so will be buying those wheels too. Thank you for sharing your knowledge about truing the cheap Chineese wheels. I will likely have to use the grinder itself to true up the body and the diamond face of the wheel, cause I don't have another machine to do it on. Should not be a problem though. Some how I will have to fix a piece of oil stone either to the dresser or to the side of the tool holding fixture of the Deckel grinder to achieve this. Maybe this will help in the future, for when the wheel gets bound up with carbide. Just a quick way to dress the wheel without removing it. Only problem is the rpm will be too fast. Cheers!
"Only problem is the rpm will be too fast." make a little adaptor on the wheel and drive the wheel with a cordless drill for slow rpm when wheel dressing. cheers bem.
Thanks Cliff. I just recently bought the same grinder and was alarmed at how much run-out there was on the diamond cup wheel. I also have some wheels with smaller bores so it's good to know the arbors are easy to make.
Thanks Mark for shooting me the link! The tool for ejecting the wheels that I have in mind will be longer and have an 8mm shaft to get into the longer custom arbors. I’ll definitely be watching the other videos to see what taper angle Cliff came up with, as it was just out of shot in this video. Great video Cliff 😀
@@stevenclarke4228in the follow up video (Tormach and CNC Lathe - Set and Run. Part 3.) Cliff ended up on a chamfer angle of 5.8deg (11.6 included angle) th-cam.com/video/KPnSJELK1JU/w-d-xo.htmlsi=5M5vN0VD6lzfD1Zm&t=721
Just found this video. Already made some adjustable arbors for my clarkson tool and cutter grinder. I was previously dressing by hand using cheap stones. Excellent video, will be doing the same frome now on👌
It's the back face that makes the mounting of the wheel to the arbor run out or run true......radially it doesn't really matter, so if you place the diamond wheel down on a flat surface and surface grind the back face parallel the wheel will run true..........BTDT. If you don't have a surface grinder indicate the back face with a dial indicator ......or if you mount the grinding wheel against a face plate and lightly machine the back face it will work wonders.
Genius. I trued up my cup wheel on the lathe before seeing this video. I would never have thought of the stone idea to true the face though. It worked very well, thanks for that.
Interesting... you could probably wash everything in alcohol after grinding maybe in a plastic tub, then recover the wash liquid, transfer to a smaller container, let the alcohol evaporate and you'd be back to just the abrasive + kero.
Only of you know exactly what’s in it. This is a random collection of stone and diamond particles without a specific size and cutting quality. You never use diamond missed in with something else.
That was an awfully informative video ! I made the mistake of trying to true up my first wheel with a single point diamond dresser! What a crock that was! lol it completely buggered the diamond, it's now got a total flat on the end. Well I learned the hard way, diamond hard in fact. I have a Norton India coarse/fine stone I bought as an apprentice church organ builder back in 1970 so it's 54 years old, ( it's 2024 now) and worn hollow as anything. I'm going out in the shed in the morning and going to attempt to resurrect it and resurface my diamond cup wheel at the same time . I think I will try the fine side first as that's the worst side for dishing and see how it goes. Thank you so much for posting this video.
I just bought one of these Deckel knockoff grinders and the wheel run-out was horrible. I thought the spindle was bad. I'm going to give your wheel truing method a try. Thanks for the video.
Cliff thanks for this video, it must be good to get the nod of approval from Robin 🙂. I have an old Alexander (English Deckel clone) and a couple of Chinese diamond wheels (that I dismissed as being almost scrap), so will definitely be giving this a go. I really like the idea of lapping/dressing slowly and wet as it's should be easier to contain abrasive dust in the slurry and seems much more controlled than some of the alternatives I have seen.
Rob Renzetti has a video on using a piece of spring steel fastened to the bottom of the DTI With double sided tape. It works very well so you don’t wear out the tip
24:54 "that just jacks it off" 😂 also very helpful/informative video. The biggest downside to this method is getting abrasives (diamond being extra hard) in your ways. I would cover the ways with a towel over the way covers just to be on the safe side
If I might suggest... most of the pain truing these wheels using the method you suggest can be obviated by mounting the wheels face down in the mill and truing the back face to the front face and then remaking the bore as concentric with the abrasive circumference as possible. Then all you're left with is any out of flat on the face & out of roundness on the abrasive circumference and aluminium body. Mounting these wheels using their "as supplied" bodies means correcting the abrasive to match the body. This is what I have done in the past to correct these wheels as far as I could before I found out that I could also correct the abrasive itself.
@evildrome I was thinking the same. I have 2 wheels coming. After truing up the cone runout, it may end up that to get rid of the concentric error in the middle 20mm bore that it needs opening up, but if that's the case I guess you could open it to, say, 25.4mm (might as well make it an inch) and use a bushing. That way it's easy to put on the mill using a common R8 1" gear cutter arbor.
I think Your videos is very nice to watch, and IU try to watch every video You post. I am thinking that You could perhaps use that slurry from dressing Your diamond grinding wheels as a lapping compound. Just my tinking right now. Try it and come back with a conclusion. Best regards to You from John Eriksson in Sweden.
Great info. I've just bought a Deckel SO so this is something I will be doing in the near future. I'm surprised how well it worked dressing the wheels. It's a couple years later, how are you finding the grits you chose? Curious if you've gravitated to a particular grit for most of your grinding. Cheers, Tinker.
Hi there! Just visited your channel. I like your style. Reassuringly English. I had an old Colchester, similar era. Keep an eye on my channel - I suspect you will be interested in something coming up. Re what wheel grit. Sadly, the cheap Chinese wheels I bought vary a lot in diamond density and I suspect hardness or diamond type. and this is more of a problem that the grit size. I hope I get time to investigate this further. Regards, Cliff
Hi Micheal. Yes I was thinking about that, but concerned the taper may not take the torque needed to dress the wheels. Please post here if anyone tries that. The system I used did give quite good concentricity, but it needs a bit of care. Cheers Cliff
@@Threadexpress As you have already taken off the bulk I think that the load will be fine.I don't imagine it will actually be out by much anyway but it is always best to true the wheels on the arbour they will live on. A test on face runout after mounting each wheel will tell the story.
@@Threadexpress I also watched a bloke finish turn the adapters and thread them while mounted on a taper adapter in his lathe and can't imagine you would need any more torque than that operation.
@@Threadexpress Just finished my tapered arbour and " trued " the 600g CBN using your method and it was fine.Now I need to get some steel to make a batch of arbours to hold all my wheels.It is good to be prompted to do these jobs as too often we neglect to make the things for ourselves which will make life easier in the workshop.As a reminder for all don't forget after truing to dress the wheels to expose some nice sharp grit.
Hi Cliff. I also brought the Chinese copy of the D Bit Grinder. I guess we don't get a lot of choice on European brands this far South of the Equator. But the Chinese versions do a great job. Definitely one of the pieces of equipment that come in handy, but unfortunately only get a small amount of use. Always difficult to decided is it worth buying or not ?? Like you my version also came from Machineyhouse here in Melbourne. Interesting video. Peter 👍
Very nice Cliff, thanks! Do you think this is effectively producing a "precision ground flat stone" as a byproduct? I.e. the grains of the oil stone are sheared off and blunt. Maybe not super flat though, could be dished if the mill isn't perfectly trammed. The grinding wheel is probably trued up nicely though.
It did produce a very flat stone but will not be as precise as you can get from a surface grinder. I wouldn't use in on my surface grinder mag chuck but I would on the Mill or Lathe.
Thanks for your comments Jon. Yes good point the grains in the oil stone may be blunt. I must do some post dressing oil stone cutting trials. I suspect the soft oilstone bond will soon break down and expose new sharp grains. Cliff
@@Threadexpress yes i know its for carbide tungsten etc but I don’t have any idea for soft iron i make 4 mm slot in soft iron rod dose it work like horizontal milling machine
@@mughalsons2254 Hi - Yes, a more open grey or white Alum Oxide say 46 grit would be much better. You may have to track one down from a grinding wheel specialist though. Cliff
![ประสบการณ์ จ้าง Developer ที่ผมจะไม่มีวันลืม [ภาค2]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/pZbsSDRrmXA/mqdefault.jpg)
Cliff, Tested and approved! Used a cheap oilstone and did what you did and what an improvement :) I had to speed up a little bit due to low tourque on my mini mill but still worked out great.And that nice feeling grinding on a wheel that actually runs true. Thanx again for the tip
Thore
Good to hear Thore. Thanks for taking the time to post that. Really good to have a reality check. Cliff
Nice work Cliff!
Hi Robin. Thanks for watching and your encouragement! Cliff
This video is more valuable than diamonds. I’m going todo it all!
Cheers! Cliff
@@ThreadexpressI want to make some arbors for my Deckel SO. Do you think it's ok to make it from 1018 or do I need a higher carbon steel to heat treat it* - 1045 or 4140? *I don't have a heat treat oven nor a big oxy torch to get it hot enough.
Steel (at least in the USA) is ridiculously expensive at the moment (despite the global steel trade collapse) so I'd like to use the cheapest possible. 1018, then 1045, then 4140.
Are you considering selling them?
If so, drop a note and we can chat offline.
Hi @@rallymax2 Yes steel in NZ is even more expensive. You don't really need to harden the Arbors or Arbor Nuts, they are not subject to extreme wear and tear and full hardening would mean distortion of the Arbors and so a need to then cylindrically grind them. From memory I only fully hardened the Arbor Nuts, and just tempered my Arbors to make them look pretty. So, I think 1018 would be ok - 1045 would be better, 4140 would be even better but a bigger job to machine it down. Cheers, Cliff
I just found myself learning so much I owe you a beer or two!
Well, now I really can reply with...Cheers! Cliff
I love this video, just had to come back to share my appreciation again, great work Cliff, thank you!
Thanks! Cliff.
This was pure gold! as a hobbyist with limited budget I have also a few of these cheap diamond wheels and mine are also shockingly out of roundness. Finding videos like this is what make this hobby so much fun ! so today I will go down in my workshop and try out your method and if time allows I might make a tool for a tool that I will never use :)
Thanks for sharing ,your videos are very educational and I am so grateful that there is so many skilled machinists out there who take the time to produce videos and share their wisdom to the rest of us.
Merry Chrismas from Norway :)
Cheers Thore! Good to hear I have reached a workshop in Norway! Let us know how it all goes. Cliff
Excellent video. I've been in the trade for 42 years. I've done a lot of cutter grinding but have never bought the cheap wheels from China. However, I have just retired and am buying a used Deckel grinder (Cheap) for my garage, so will be buying those wheels too. Thank you for sharing your knowledge about truing the cheap Chineese wheels. I will likely have to use the grinder itself to true up the body and the diamond face of the wheel, cause I don't have another machine to do it on. Should not be a problem though. Some how I will have to fix a piece of oil stone either to the dresser or to the side of the tool holding fixture of the Deckel grinder to achieve this. Maybe this will help in the future, for when the wheel gets bound up with carbide. Just a quick way to dress the wheel without removing it. Only problem is the rpm will be too fast. Cheers!
Thanks for the feedback! Cheers, Cliff
"Only problem is the rpm will be too fast."
make a little adaptor on the wheel and drive the wheel with a cordless drill for slow rpm when wheel dressing.
cheers
bem.
Thanks Cliff. I just recently bought the same grinder and was alarmed at how much run-out there was on the diamond cup wheel. I also have some wheels with smaller bores so it's good to know the arbors are easy to make.
Thanks Mark for shooting me the link!
The tool for ejecting the wheels that I have in mind will be longer and have an 8mm shaft to get into the longer custom arbors. I’ll definitely be watching the other videos to see what taper angle Cliff came up with, as it was just out of shot in this video.
Great video Cliff 😀
Cheers Mark. Cliff
@@stevenclarke4228 Cheers Steven. Cliff
Hi Mark!
@@stevenclarke4228in the follow up video (Tormach and CNC Lathe - Set and Run. Part 3.) Cliff ended up on a chamfer angle of 5.8deg (11.6 included angle)
th-cam.com/video/KPnSJELK1JU/w-d-xo.htmlsi=5M5vN0VD6lzfD1Zm&t=721
Just found this video. Already made some adjustable arbors for my clarkson tool and cutter grinder.
I was previously dressing by hand using cheap stones.
Excellent video, will be doing the same frome now on👌
Thanks for taking the time to give feedback DG. Cheers Cliff
It's the back face that makes the mounting of the wheel to the arbor run out or run true......radially it doesn't really matter, so if you place the diamond wheel down on a flat surface and surface grind the back face parallel the wheel will run true..........BTDT.
If you don't have a surface grinder indicate the back face with a dial indicator ......or if you mount the grinding wheel against a face plate and lightly machine the back face it will work wonders.
Genius. I trued up my cup wheel on the lathe before seeing this video. I would never have thought of the stone idea to true the face though. It worked very well, thanks for that.
Thanks for your feedback. Cheers, Cliff
I just bought a used D bit grinder. Great video thanks for sharing.
Cheers! Cliff
The slurry can be used for valves and rifle bolt/breech mating surfaces.
Interesting... you could probably wash everything in alcohol after grinding maybe in a plastic tub, then recover the wash liquid, transfer to a smaller container, let the alcohol evaporate and you'd be back to just the abrasive + kero.
Only of you know exactly what’s in it. This is a random collection of stone and diamond particles without a specific size and cutting quality. You never use diamond missed in with something else.
That was an awfully informative video ! I made the mistake of trying to true up my first wheel with a single point diamond dresser! What a crock that was! lol it completely buggered the diamond, it's now got a total flat on the end. Well I learned the hard way, diamond hard in fact. I have a Norton India coarse/fine stone I bought as an apprentice church organ builder back in 1970 so it's 54 years old, ( it's 2024 now) and worn hollow as anything. I'm going out in the shed in the morning and going to attempt to resurrect it and resurface my diamond cup wheel at the same time . I think I will try the fine side first as that's the worst side for dishing and see how it goes. Thank you so much for posting this video.
Hi Sam. Thanks for taking the time to give your story, and some feedback.
I would love to hear how it all works out. Cheers Cliff
I just bought one of these Deckel knockoff grinders and the wheel run-out was horrible. I thought the spindle was bad. I'm going to give your wheel truing method a try. Thanks for the video.
Thanks - let us know how it goes. Cliff
@@Threadexpress - It seems to have worked well on cheap diamond wheel that came with the grinder. Thanks again for sharing your knowledge
@@robc2536 Thanks for taking the time to reply and give us feedback! Cheers, Cliff
Thank you very much for making this video. It helps me tremendously.
this is a golden tip ! thanks for sharing !
cheers ben.
Thanks for taking the time to give feedback. Cheers, Cliff
Cliff thanks for this video, it must be good to get the nod of approval from Robin 🙂.
I have an old Alexander (English Deckel clone) and a couple of Chinese diamond wheels (that I dismissed as being almost scrap), so will definitely be giving this a go. I really like the idea of lapping/dressing slowly and wet as it's should be easier to contain abrasive dust in the slurry and seems much more controlled than some of the alternatives I have seen.
Thanks for taking the time to give feedback! Please let us know how it goes for you. Cheers, Cliff
Hi Cliff, Thanks for all your videos this year and a Merry Christmas to you and yours, Cheers Dave.
Cheers Dave ! Cliff
You are my HERO...............Cheers, Davo from OZ
Cheers Davo! Cliff
Rob Renzetti has a video on using a piece of spring steel fastened to the bottom of the DTI With double sided tape. It works very well so you don’t wear out the tip
Hi Brandon - Thanks for your input. Yes I saw that video, his idea inspired be to make the shroud. Cheers Cliff
I've been looking for this ever since I wrecked (please don't ask...) a couple of diamond wheels. Thank you.
Thanks for your feedback! Cliff
Excellent idea, thank you for sharing! I have an old British Alexander D bit grinder, will try this on the Chinese wheels I've been sourcing!
Thanks for taking the time to give feedback. If you have time.. would love to hear how it goes. Cliff
Good way to dress a wheel without a dressing machine. Good video!
Thanks for the feedback! Cliff
Great selection of tips. Thanks.
Cheers! Cliff
What a World without newspapers😅 very nice thanks for that video
Cheers! Cliff
Very good information! Thanks for sharing.
Cheers! Cliff
24:54 "that just jacks it off" 😂 also very helpful/informative video. The biggest downside to this method is getting abrasives (diamond being extra hard) in your ways. I would cover the ways with a towel over the way covers just to be on the safe side
I must be innocent - that never occurred to me! Cheers, Cliff😀
@@Threadexpressyou're probably just an adult😅 excuse my child mind
Thanks Cliff, that was a very cool vid!!
Cheers Joe! Cliff
very cool, good job. I will have follow your example
Thanks. Cliff
Thank you for this video....interesting. Enjoyed.
Thanks for the feedback Tom. Cheers Cliff
If I might suggest... most of the pain truing these wheels using the method you suggest can be obviated by mounting the wheels face down in the mill and truing the back face to the front face and then remaking the bore as concentric with the abrasive circumference as possible.
Then all you're left with is any out of flat on the face & out of roundness on the abrasive circumference and aluminium body.
Mounting these wheels using their "as supplied" bodies means correcting the abrasive to match the body.
This is what I have done in the past to correct these wheels as far as I could before I found out that I could also correct the abrasive itself.
Makes sense...thanks! Cliff
@evildrome I was thinking the same. I have 2 wheels coming. After truing up the cone runout, it may end up that to get rid of the concentric error in the middle 20mm bore that it needs opening up, but if that's the case I guess you could open it to, say, 25.4mm (might as well make it an inch) and use a bushing. That way it's easy to put on the mill using a common R8 1" gear cutter arbor.
Excellent vid - thank you! I'm going to give it a go👍
Thanks for the feedback. Let us know how it works out for you. Cheers Cliff
I think Your videos is very nice to watch, and IU try to watch every video You post. I am thinking that You could perhaps use that slurry from dressing Your diamond grinding wheels as a lapping compound. Just my tinking right now. Try it and come back with a conclusion.
Best regards to You from John Eriksson in Sweden.
Thanks for your thoughts and feedback John. Cheers, Cliff
Great info. I've just bought a Deckel SO so this is something I will be doing in the near future. I'm surprised how well it worked dressing the wheels. It's a couple years later, how are you finding the grits you chose? Curious if you've gravitated to a particular grit for most of your grinding. Cheers, Tinker.
Hi there! Just visited your channel. I like your style. Reassuringly English. I had an old Colchester, similar era. Keep an eye on my channel - I suspect you will be interested in something coming up. Re what wheel grit. Sadly, the cheap Chinese wheels I bought vary a lot in diamond density and I suspect hardness or diamond type. and this is more of a problem that the grit size. I hope I get time to investigate this further. Regards, Cliff
Nice job Clifff, but now you will need a tapered arbour to mount the wheels and their adapters before truing them up again.
Hi Micheal. Yes I was thinking about that, but concerned the taper may not take the torque needed to dress the wheels. Please post here if anyone tries that. The system I used did give quite good concentricity, but it needs a bit of care. Cheers Cliff
@@Threadexpress As you have already taken off the bulk I think that the load will be fine.I don't imagine it will actually be out by much anyway but it is always best to true the wheels on the arbour they will live on.
A test on face runout after mounting each wheel will tell the story.
@@Threadexpress I also watched a bloke finish turn the adapters and thread them while mounted on a taper adapter in his lathe and can't imagine you would need any more torque than that operation.
@@localele1 Thanks Micheal. Sounds like it would work. Cliff
@@Threadexpress Just finished my tapered arbour and " trued " the 600g CBN using your method and it was fine.Now I need to get some steel to make a batch of arbours to hold all my wheels.It is good to be prompted to do these jobs as too often we neglect to make the things for ourselves which will make life easier in the workshop.As a reminder for all don't forget after truing to dress the wheels to expose some nice sharp grit.
Hi Cliff.
I also brought the Chinese copy of the D Bit Grinder.
I guess we don't get a lot of choice on European brands this far South of the Equator.
But the Chinese versions do a great job.
Definitely one of the pieces of equipment that come in handy, but unfortunately only get a small amount of use.
Always difficult to decided is it worth buying or not ??
Like you my version also came from Machineyhouse here in Melbourne.
Interesting video.
Peter 👍
Hi Peter. Thanks for your comments. Cheers Cliff.
very cool! thanks for sharing!
Cheers! Cliff
Thank you Cliff. I did not know you could dress diamond wheels at all. Does this also work with CBN wheels? ??
Hi There. Yes I think it will work on CBN wheels because the stone only has to cut the wheel bond. Please let us know if you try it. Cheers Cliff
In the lapidary community, we use an old red brick to dress bonded diamond.
Interesting! Thanks, Cliff
Very nice Cliff, thanks!
Do you think this is effectively producing a "precision ground flat stone" as a byproduct? I.e. the grains of the oil stone are sheared off and blunt. Maybe not super flat though, could be dished if the mill isn't perfectly trammed. The grinding wheel is probably trued up nicely though.
It did produce a very flat stone but will not be as precise as you can get from a surface grinder. I wouldn't use in on my surface grinder mag chuck but I would on the Mill or Lathe.
Thanks for your comments Jon. Yes good point the grains in the oil stone may be blunt. I must do some post dressing oil stone cutting trials. I suspect the soft oilstone bond will soon break down and expose new sharp grains. Cliff
@@klw141 Thanks for your thoughts Khris. Cheers Cliff
Hi again Jon. I used that ground flat stone recently to sharpen a woodworking plane blade and it was nice to use and cut really well! Cheers Cliff
Great and informative Video!
Cheers! Cliff
Thanks for this! I need to make some hubs too, do you remember the taper spec?
I found I had to fine tweak the taper to get a 100% match on the spindle. So an exact angle is not much use. Cheers Cliff
Damn, fine art!
@@bigoper cheers!
Excellent - took 30 seconds to subscribe !!!
Cheers! Cliff
Thanks, nice method!
Cheers! Cliff
Trying to work out if it's worth buying a grinder, looks like I need a mill and a lathe first.
Yes they would be more important in most shops. Cheers.
awesome information thank you. Cliff
Cheers! Cliff
great work thank you
Cheers! Cliff
Весьма полезный видеофильм, спасибо.
Cheers, Cliff
Hi! Do you have drawings for the arbor?
Hi - See the linked video above at 5 mins, you can pause screen and print. Cheers, Cliff
Hy sir can i use this granding wheel on iron for 4mm deep slot.
Hi. These type of Diamond wheels are graded for Tungsten Carbide and are not an ideal abrasive for steel. Especially if it is unhardened steel. Cliff
@@Threadexpress yes i know its for carbide tungsten etc but I don’t have any idea for soft iron i make 4 mm slot in soft iron rod dose it work like horizontal milling machine
@@mughalsons2254 Hi. In soft iron it will likely glaze up quickly and stop cutting. Cliff
@@Threadexpress so u know any other wheel whos working perfectly and wheels long life stable
@@mughalsons2254 Hi - Yes, a more open grey or white Alum Oxide say 46 grit would be much better. You may have to track one down from a grinding wheel specialist though. Cliff
Great vid, m8. Thanks!
Cheers! Cliff
👏👏👌
Cheers!
👏 👏
Cheers!
Ahaha! F your indicator tips! 😂
Cheers!