Flour and Water: over-kneaded bread dough
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 12 ก.ย. 2024
- Is it possible to over-knead bread dough? Yes - just about...in this video I demonstrate the changes that take place during vigorous mixing, and the unfortunate results of over-developing gluten.
Note that this video is for illustrative purposes and is not meant to be a warning or an example of bad practice! I deliberately used a very powerful food processor here in order to achieve this result. Under normal circumstances, it is highly unlikely that anyone would accidentally over-knead their dough. Thanks!
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Love how this is channel is one video and just this
I know, I know. New year's resolution: make more videos...
I think you need a new new years resolution
@@amanamanasra6304 I think you need a new new New Years resolution
@@flourandwater7525 I think you need a new new New Years resolution
thanks for the video. I was wondering what it would look like.
Glad you liked it! I must do more...
I'm new to baking. The end of this video is exactly what happened to me today mixing 1000g of bread flour using a Kitchenaid Proline 7qt mixer after about 25 minutes on speed 3 or 4. I ended up throwing the whole batch away but saved a small piece just to see what happens after letting it rest. It still seems to be able recover after letting it rest for 2 hrs. I plan on baking that small piece just to see what it looks like.
I use a spiral mixer and over kneaded dough for me results in a super elastic dough that will never hold its shape, but it doesn't separate like that.
No, it takes a lot to over knead it to this point. The food processor overheated and cut out several times during the experiment.
Beautifully explained
I hand kneed my dough for. The last time it happened to me after my dough was look so good and streachy started to become soft and floppy, I was shocked to learn that over kneeding can turn to opposite.
Thanks for this video. I now know how over kneaded dough looks like.
I don't even know but this is satisfying :).
Thanks now i see the problem 😞
Cool video, didn't know this could happen.
Thank you SSOOO much. I didn't understand until now. I'll knead less next time! 👌😓 ☺
Danke. Damm I wondered every time when do i stop 🤦♂️🤦♂️🤦♂️
Gooey mess is not surprising since basically every gluten strand was cut. Who kneads dough in a food processor?
The purpose of the video is to show what happens when dough is over-kneaded (just for interest). Although kneading in a food processor is perfectly possible if you don't overdo it. The Magimix used here is supplied (and was used) with a blade specifically designed for bread dough.
Flour and Water I understand it was a demo, I wasn't being critical to be rude. I have a kneading blade so I am aware. Part of my point was about cleaning the food processor. I make pasta dough in mine all the time (standard metal cutting blade) but take it out as soon as it starts coming together or else more dough ends up sticking to the bowl than I have remaining to make pasta. Your demo explained why.
Good point; cleaning up after this demo took a long time. The dough (if you could still call it that) had worked its way up into the core of the dough blade and down the central column of the bowl. A real mess...
just find this satisfying!
I will save my ruined sloppy dough and use is as a polish and sourdough starter
This may be due to the dough reaching too high of a temperature. I'm not exactly sure about this, but some other Pizza dough experts have told me that if the dough temperature exceeds 28C the gluten network begins to fail. Since a food processor works at such a high RPM and you may not be aware of the problem (which can be solved by starting your mix with icy water), maybe you exceeded this temperature by working the mixture too long? Any thoughts?
Thanks, but this is simply a case of over-mixing, which I did deliberately (see video description). Gluten breakdown in this case occurs because of the mechanical force. Regarding temperature: it isn't that the temperature itself causes gluten degradation. It's actually enzyme activity that is responsible, and it will happen eventually whatever the temperature - it's just that warmer temps will cause it to happen faster. This is only really an issue for very slow-fermenting dough, e.g. sourdough.
@@flourandwater7525 th-cam.com/video/LQPCXMpxO4c/w-d-xo.html&ab_channel=TheBreadCode this guy did some tests and seemed to reach the conclusion that the dough goes back to normal after resting for a bit. Does that seem right?
just saying, you don't knead dough in a food processor. you do it either by hand, or with a stand mixer with a dough hook.
Weres the bread that was created by that gough?
I have a cinnamon raise bread (with milk and butter) that I kneaded and kneaded and kneaded, but the dough never reached the smooth and stretchy state. It isn't super sticky and wet, just doesn't have a nice stretch, or that windowpane look. Should I add some flour?
Great video. It showed me very clearly that i have been over kneeding my dough. (...and I think over proofing it too. Do you have an equivalent video demonstrating what over proofed dough looks like? )
Hi! Over proofed dough doesn't really look any different to under or correctly proofed dough, except obviously that the longer the dough is proofed the more volume it gains (all other things being equal). Whether or not a loaf is over proofed is a matter of degree - it isn't necessarily a major problem. Also, are you sure you're over-kneading? As this video hopefully shows, it isn't an easy thing to do. If you do over-knead to the extent shown, the dough is effectively ruined.
If you clumped it all back together would it just go back into a ball?
At this point it's like glue, but yes, it is possible to shape it roughly, using a lot of flour on hands and worksurfaces. And it did make a more or less edible loaf, although it didn't rise too well.
That happened because the blades were cutting the gluten strands. If you run potatoes through a food processor, you'll end up with something similar to glue.
Not so: please see previous comments.
Thank you
Well at least we all know now that mixing flour and water in a food processor is the wrong way to go about it LOL
What is the best kind of flour for this result please??????
Well, I was using strong white flour for this, but obviously this isn't a result you want!
Thank you. So how long should I knead in a stand mixer?
I go for about 10 minutes on a medium speed.
Flour and Water thank you!
Hello! Could you do a video on what proper bread dough should look like please? Like how it should look when everything is correctly mixed together and how long I should knead dough? I am killing myself trying to make this bread dough but from your video I gathered that I essentially ruined the dough...🤦♀️ Thank you!
Thank you for this video by the way!
Hi! I'll probably try something once I've got Christmas out of the way. Glad you liked the video!
This is a really helpful video. I made a dutch oven loaf using all purpose flour yesterday and the first was very tight and seems to not be soft enough so I mixed the second for longer using my dough hook and was perplexed that it became MORE sticky over time and added up adding more flour. The flavour and crust was lovely but the inside texture was quite 'bouncy' - is this over development of the gluten from mixing too much?
Not to the extent shown in the video - what it shows is complete breakdown of the gluten network. If that happens, you would know something was seriously wrong. The video may not show it well enough, but when this happens, the dough ceases being a dough and becomes a sticky mess. You wouldn't be able to even transfer it from mixer to Dutch oven. On the other hand, it is true that beyond a certain point mixing will make the dough softer. There are so many factors involved, it's hard to say in any given case what has gone wrong.
Could you hypothetically do this with pizza dough if you wanna make an extremely thin crust that’s manageable? Or is that dumb?
You wouldn't want to do it deliberately - the dough is almost completely unmanageable.
Flour and Water it’s the near exact consistency I noticed when I was overzealous with the cuisinart, it’s a strange custard-like gummy glob that stretches a fair amount before breaking.
Idk why my dough never becomes elastic. I’ve tried different techniques from using a stand mixer to kneading by hand. I thought i was kneading too little so i kneaded more time but then it’s still the same.
SAME like mine, but I've never use stand mixer, just by hand and it's always tearing apart easily when I knead it :(
User Daffa do you know what kind of climate you live in? Maybe it’s the humidity?
I live in a very hot n humid country, and I've never been able to get that window pane test done perfectly. Am also guessing that the humidity's possibly making my dough less elastic.
@@kathleenm6715 yes, thanks it's solved, the problem was water amount, my dough haven't enough hidration so it's always tearing apart. Now my dough can pass windowpane test 😁
@@rushbcykablyat1792 yeah very true
So what are you saying here, Not to go over 2 minutes?
Hi - no, this is just a demonstration of what happens to bread dough if it is mixed long enough and with enough force. Food processors obviously vary in power, and larger amounts of dough will require more energy input, so this video is not intended as an indication of how long to mix for. I used a Magimix 5200 for this experiment, which is a very powerful machine.
Many food processors aren't up to the job, but the Magimix and some others will do it well and are supplied with dough blades for this task. The purpose of this demonstration was not meant to be instructional - I just thought it would be interesting to show what happens when dough is over mixed and gluten breaks down. I didn't feel any need for a control as the video shows the dough at each stage of its development.
the text is too fast
Do what I do: Just pause it until I'm done reading it.
This is non sense. You're using a food processor which basically whips and slices the dough a hundred times per second and does no kneading at all. To make dough you need to stretch the gluten. A food processor can be used to mix the initial ingredients but it does not knead the dough. Dough kneaded in stand mixer with a hook can be kneaded for 10 to 15 minutes with no problem.
It's like asking if you can use a nail to hang a picture and then using high power air gun to shoot a nail into the wall. The nail sails through the plaster and shatters the wood behind it. Conclusion: nails are no good for hanging pictures.
I was using a dough blade here, which has blunt edges. It does indeed stretch the gluten, although it is very aggressive - about 2 minutes is enough for a normal loaf. However, this video is intended to illustrate that gluten can be over-developed, and what happens to it when over-developed. The nail-gun analogy is incorrect: I wasn't showing that a food processor is a good or a bad tool to use, I used it simply because it was powerful and aggressive enough to over-knead the dough, which is precisely what I wanted to achieve.
Peter Reinhart (baker and author) actually says that using a food processor is fine, but it’s easy to knead the dough to the point of breaking down the gluten instead of strengthening it. I usually knead by hand anyway to avoid this problem but food processors are fine as long as you pay attention.
You’re the one talking nonsense (one word not two). Years ago I used to use a processor with its steel blade, that was all you got in those days. Results were brilliant and my white and whole meal loaves have come first in the Northumberland County Show (U.K.).
It's totally fine to use a food processor, even with the sharp blade, google "Van Over method" (named after Charles van Over). You just have to make sure you don't overdo it.
@@flourandwater7525 Thanks for this illustration, now i know why my Magimix overheat all the time i use it to knead a dough
0:24 Yeah, yeah, yeah--get on with it. 🥱 ~LOL~
The dough has been torn and ripped asunder.
what does it taste like after its done
Good question. The gluten in the dough has been badly damaged, so it will be (a) extremely difficult to shape, because it is so sticky, and (b) will not rise well, because gluten is what traps gas within the dough. The finished loaf will be dense and unpalatable, since the texture of the loaf affects its flavour as well. I really should make another video to illustrate this.
+Flour and Water thanks
Hey FaW, excellent informative video, thank you!
Did you make the other video that you refer to above?
Not yet, sorry!
Just out of curiosity, have you actually tried to bake the overkneaded dough or did you just repeat what you've read somewhere?
You didn't overknead it. You sliced it. Kneading is pressure and stretching. You didn't stretch it with the processor, the blades just cut the gluten fibers you developed. This would not happen with a real kneading appliance or by hand. It is the wrong application of food processor and cannot even be called kneading.
Not so. I was using a dough blade, which cannot cut the gluten fibres. The same results could be achieved using a spiral arm mixer, although it would take longer. In theory, it is even possible by hand, although it would be extremely difficult.
waarom niet in het nederlands????,,,,,
ik spreek geen Nederlands(?)
thnx a lot.
mixes are terrible for bread and totally unnecessary. it's just as quick by hand
Excellent information, thank you! I knead by hand, and noticed that after about a few minutes the dough becomes sticky, and from there on just gets worse. I was wondering whether I an over-kneading.
Bread dough should get firmer and less sticky the longer you knead; 10-15 minutes is about the right length of time. It's very unlikely you are over-kneading, as it's virtually impossible to do this by hand. The main factor affecting the stickiness of the dough is the proportion of water. 60% water by weight of flour is a good starting point.
@@flourandwater7525 then how is it possible that the dough in this video turned to peanut butter after just 4 mins in your mixer? Could it be that the mixer was rotating too fast? I'm having a lot of issues woth my sourdough right now.... mostly because the gluten just doesnt seem to form right during bulk fermentation!
@@What-zb9ju Sorry, I meant 10-15 minutes mixing by hand. The processor I was using is very powerful, so it didn't take very long. I don't know how long it would take to over knead by hand - I suspect it's virtually impossible (unless maybe a team of very strong bakers took shifts...). The issue with your sourdough might be gluten degradation, which is caused by an enzyme present in flour and yeast, and can be a problem with any dough that is fermented for a long time. This is a very complex topic, though. There's a section about it in the book on my website.
@@flourandwater7525 thanks for the clarification. I'm living in the tropics and have an ambient temperature of about 30-32degrees celcius. Was wondering if that could be causing my ordeal with the dough. Will check out your site!
@@What-zb9ju Yes, warmer temperatures can be a problem, so if you can find somewhere cooler for your dough to rise that might help. There are so many variables, though, that it's very hard to pinpoint the exact cause without repeated experiment. Best of luck, and I hope you find something useful on the site!
Would not look like that if there had been salt added
Hi John, the dough did include salt (5g) and yeast (easy action, 7g), although I didn't mention that in the video. I haven't experimented to see what difference an absence of salt would make, although I assume it would have some effect.
What’s your point?
What's yours?
Lol
The point is to show what over kneeded dough looks like. Over kneaded dough is not good, and results in an inferior product.
Couldn't you fix the last condition by just adding more flour to firm it up?
It would take quite a lot of extra flour to make the dough less sticky. Even then, the gluten in the original dough has been irreversibly damaged: the loaf wouldn't rise well and would be dense. I don't think over-mixing is something anyone could do by accident, though. My mixer cut out completely during one experiment, which shows how much energy is required to damage gluten!
Oh, cool! Thanks for teaching me something new. :)Flour and Water
Flour and Water Should I throw away my pie mix with too much water away?
I added extra flour and popped the dough into the fridge..
🎂🎂🎂🎂🎂🎂🎂🎂👍
You put too much water to begin with. When you kneaded first few minutes the water didn't incorporate with flour and that's why the dough wasn't sticky. As you kneaded more the water was fully absorbed by flour and made the dough sticky. Overkneading is a myth. You will need to learn how gluten behaves to make any judgment.
Incorrect. It was actually a 60% hydration dough, far less water than many recipes call for. Furthermore, as gluten is developed though kneading and absorbs more water, dough becomes less sticky, not more - under normal circumstances. Overkneading is not a myth, it's well known that it's possible. I just wanted to illustrate it.
@@flourandwater7525 what temp did the dough get to after five minutes in food processor?
if kneading by hand, I'd think overkneading is really unlikely (for various reasons). maybe I'm just lazy, though.
even in a hobart (bc the action is so different than a food processor), over-kneading isn't nearly such an ever-present threat.
(at the first bakery I worked at, the hobart would start to slow down when approaching the proper elasticity stage - eventually slowing to a VERY slow crawl. I know that isn't normal but it WAS damn handy.)
@@op3129 I didn't measure it, but I'd guess something like 30 degrees centigrade.
You're right, I can't imagine anyone would unintentionally overknead by hand - it must be possible, but it would take a lot of time and energy. The mixer I was using (a Magimix 3500) did slow down and was beginning to overheat as the dough reached peak elasticity, just like the Hobart you used. It quite suddenly began to run fast again as the gluten matrix broke up and the dough turned to a sticky mess. I should repeat the experiment and film the whole thing. Cleaning up afterwards is no fun, though.
@@flourandwater7525 Hello, if you look at Bake with Jack youtube channel, Jack tried to over knead and he wore himself out before any over kneading occurred. I trust Jack so its not possible to over knead by hand. Using a mixer however, I am not sure... Some say it depends on the mixer. But i think it is the dough is damaged, not so much over kneaded, just kneaded wrongly
@@voidremoved Overkneaded dough is damaged dough. As gluten is developed by kneading it becomes more and more elastic and resists the force of kneading. Eventually, in the struggle between dough and mixer, either the mixer fails or the gluten matrix breaks down, i.e. the dough is overkneaded. I should point out that this isn't a personal theory: it's well known in food science. The video is just a demonstration of the phenomenon.
Mix it for 30 mins on a mixer and you'll realize this doesn't happen. Then you should delete your video please.
You didn't read the video description, did you?