My wife was trying to sleep in the next room over, when she goes to bed she always tells me to be sure to check my volume, in other words, keep it low so it won't wake her up, I'm going to plead insanity, or at least pretend I don't know what she's talking about, wish me luck.
It's 5 am and 20 minutes and I just woke up 20 minutes ago watching this with my cup of coffee and I thought I forgot to turn off my alarm. That wasn't really necessary.
I have a few friends that are complaining about it... The regs came out in early 2010. You had 10 years Most installs are between 2-4k. While not pocket change, its still very cheap when it comes to planes. My families last cross country trip cost more than that in fuel.
@@roytee3127 That sounds like somebody who is flying with somebody else paying the bills. Sort of arrogant IMHO. I've got twenty airplanes. Putting ADS-B in all of them would be asinine expensive. I made ONE trip in the past two years that I could not have made without ADS-B under the new rules, assuming you can go under the shelf of Class C, and I didn't really need to make that trip in a plane. The economics simply don't compute, at least not for me. And I've got a Culver V Satellite that is pretty nice, has radios GPS etc. Not a popular plane and probably not worth much more than about $ 12,000. I'm not doing ADS-B in it until they get the cost down to about that of an ELT. And BTW, why exactly is it two to six grand? What it is supposed to do isn't that amazing. It's like a simple GPS and a beacon that should be as easy to install as an ELT. It really should be about three or four hundred bucks. Somebody is getting rich off of this requirement. I wonder if those people, whomever they area, had something to do with it being adopted.
Its all about the certification... I am a gc, saftey glasses are a big deal in my industry. my 3 m safety glasses that are tested and rated by ansi( think faa only slightly better) are $50 a pair. My ones that are identical minus the embossed ansi number( from the head of 3m on the west coast) are $10. Hell i have a pair of oakleys that are rated to stop a 22 lr that i have had since i was in the coast guard are not even legal for mw to use. What it all boils down to is testing. Just look at modern avionics and the difference between certifed and experimental. Its a sick joke.
My glider is exempt (no "electrical system") but I decided to install ADS-B out on it. Since I already am flying with a Trig 22 transponder and since my glider is 'Experimental' category, that was quite easy. The Garmin/Trig GPS receiver that works with the T22 is $350, the antenna is $50 and I also installed a squat switch to run the SIL 3 configuration. All works well and my FAA Performance Report came back with perfect results. Here on the edge of the Chicago B airspace I want to be seen!!! Battery drain is negligible and I see that as just an excuse. Btw., we squawk the "glider code" 1202 at all times unless directed otherwise.
It's true. The Cub flies like crap. I have approximately 100 hours in Cubs and they just suck to fly. Poor visibility, control surfaces that don't work, a completely dead engine, light wing loading so your bounce all over the place. I hate that plane.
@@pittss2c601 I disagree, I have over a thousand hours in a cub that my father owned. And we didn't have any issue with it except the gutlessness of the engine above 2500 foot asl. Eventually he had a custom engineered turbo put in it and we didn't have any more issues after that,we've been climbed to 9500 foot over the tehachapi mountain ranges in California
Paul, too bad you didn't have a brother. Sometimes you need a big brother to slap you upside the head. In my 4,000 hours of private flying, I have had three "near-death experiences." One time I was saved by a competent and caring approach controller out of Tampa who spotted what turned out to be a C182 evidently doing emergency decent practice above me about 80 nm North of TPA. I was IFR and the other pilot was not using flight following. It took 3 evasive maneuver commands to get me away from him. and prevent the collision. He, of course, never knew the better. Next it was my eagle-eyed daughter, then 18, who spotted an old Taylorcraft flying the wrong way, right out of the sun, turning downwind to Runway 18 at KIRS. Sturgis, MI. If not for her last-second scream "Daddy" and pointing, then my instinctive haul-ass to the right, all 3 of us would have been history. The pilot and I had a "discussion" about his choice not to use his hand-held radio and fly the opposite way in a pattern. Finally, I had one of those "in the freakin' middle of nowhere" encounters over Oklahoma on a long, slow descent into a rural airport and had just fallen below radar coverage. A big twin overtook me from behind, evidently climbing out of a private strip, nose up, not using his radio, he never saw me butI felt the pressure wave from above just prior to the big shadow and the roar of his engines even through my Lightspeeds. Scared the bejesus out of me. I hope my point is obvious. ADS-B, fully complied with, would have avoided all three of these scenarios. So you and your "exempt" friends should think twice, no, five times, before deciding not to buy the damn unit, the battery, whatever it takes, and comply anyway. The life you save might be your own ... or maybe mine, too. (you may say that was not the point of your post. Moot point. It should have been mentioned.)
There's an inaccuracy here. The regulations do not say you cannot fly under the shelf of class Charlie. Only class bravo shelves by virtue of being inside the mode c veil.
I saw that in this video, and I assumed what you are saying, largely because that is how it was described in the little safety magazine that the FAA puts out at the pilots meetings several months ago, but if you look up the actual law, which I just did after I heard this, it says 'lateral boundaries' of the Class B and C AND the mode C veils. That means under the shelf. I'm not gonna be the one to test what the FAA actually means. I think it means Class C lateral boundaries, within, over, and under, should all be treated as dead airspace, in addition to Class B Mode C veils. I, for one, have learned not to trust ANYBODY's advice on what the law is when their job performance is measured on how many people they can violate. I don't plan on trusting anything the FAA says on their website or their newsletters on subject's like this or what is reported in AOPA or whatever as to what the FAA tells them until this ambiguity is cleared up, so read the actual law. You can find it with a couple of google searches. It says nothing about under the shelf being legal. It says lateral boundaries. So this video just might be right on that. However, they also point out that the law says 'after Jan 1', which would appear to mean Jan 2 or thereafter, not Jan 1, but I wouldn't trust some controller somewhere violating you on Jan 1. So this is the other way, even though the law says one thing, I suspect the individual controllers are all assuming the same Jan 1 that we were all assuming for the past couple of years.
@@kellytrimble4120 your reading and mine of 91.225(d) (3) are quite different. To me it says above only, with exactly the same language as 91.215: "Above the ceiling and within the lateral boundaries of a Class B or Class C airspace area designated for an airport upward to 10,000 feet MSL"
@@FlyingLessons Yes, you are exactly right. A reasonable person with a background in the subject would assume exactly what you are assuming and what I was assuming it meant, reinforced with prior information, a lot of it from the FAA. But reasonable people could interpret it to mean under the shelf, as evidenced by the people who made this video. If there is an ambiguity, which this vid suggests there might be, I'm not going there until it is cleared up. If you can't go in the lateral boundaries of a Class C, and you have to just stay out of them, then there is really no reason to ever talk to approach. If there is no reason to talk to approach on your way in or way out of an airport just outside of the Class C, I suspect there may be no good reason to ever try to do VFR flight following. The potential for getting violated on this is one more reason a lot of people who need flight following and approach radar services will have to not talk to ATC. When I cross country, I am constantly crossing thru Class C and sometimes going over Class B and frequently go thru Class C at the destination to get to a small airport on the other side, so I don't worry about whether I'm in or out or around or whatever, I just don't think about it. This has me thinking I need to simply steer clear of Class C altogether and not talk to ATC at all unless I'm landing at a Class D. I think that is less safe, but that's what the incentive structure will be. I hadn't really thought of it until I watched this video. You may be right in your interpretation, the same I had, but I can't chance it.
@@littlegreenman1 Yup that's the same graphic I saw in the FAA safety magazine they hand out at the Wings seminars. But if you read the actual reg, it could be interpreted as prohibiting flight under the shelf of the Class C, which is obviously the interpretation of the people making this video, and maybe some controller somewhere looking to gain brownie points for violating people for stuff. That ambiguity needs to be cleared up before I go under the shelf.
@@kellytrimble4120 the word AND means both the vertical and lateral conditions must be met in order for that rule to apply (otherwise it would say OR.) Besides that, it aligns with the Mode C requirements which the FAA has made clear was their intent from the beginning. And finally, if there was a challenge from the FAA, all you'd have to do is show them their own official graphic. The issue is important because there are many Class C cutouts for GA airports around the country. All of those airports would essentially be closed to non-ADS-B aircraft as of 1/2 if the rule applied there. But fortunately, it doesn't.
What amazes me is that this whole gov't campaign looks so very much like the ELD (Electronic Logging Device) push for commercial vehicles. As an aside, both of these happened alongside another less obvious change. Look at the electronics included in modern automobiles post 2010.
We do annuals, every year - and have never flown out of annual except on a ferry permit. No ADS-B Out installed yet. This idea that people who haven't done an ADS-B upgrade by the deadline are somehow delinquent owners is frustrating and ridiculous. I don't have a spare $2k laying around for non-essential avionics. It's that simple.
Increased safety for all in the air IS NOT non-essential avionics, It’s joining the 20th century ! We have to constantly improve, not stay stuck in the past...
By that definition you could argue anything that potentially improves safety is "essential". Good luck fitting TCAS on a J-3 Cub. Don't have an AOA indicator? It increases safety so it must be essential right?
@@hempelcx The opposite argument is that anything that improves safety is optional! I am sure there are many Libertarians that believe that. There is a balance, of course. If ADSB were $250 installed would more of those people without it get it? Sure. Same thing is true about TCAS....if it were a few hundred bucks and weighed a few ounces and were tiny would many GA airplanes start putting it in (particularly those that fly high and in crowded with commercial traffic airspaces), yeah. A lot depends on your mission and the airspace you fly in. My original comment didn't consider that because I fly in a crowded airspace near a large mode c veil near a couple of charlie airports so I just saw it from my perspective. For my mission, I see it as a requirement IMHO.
Paul could have been a standup comedian. But, this is best summation I've heard. I've had ADS B in/out for a long time, but this was still worth hearing Paul Bertirelli (sp). Loved it.
This would be riveting with an initial explanation of ADS-B. As a flight simmer I'm fascinated in real world aviation stuff. Edit: Googled, got it. Very interesting!
I am not sure why anyone would not want ADS B. Big Brother, or no electrical system is not reason not to install it. It does enhance your safety. I remember when certain people were arguing against antilock brakes, air bags, and seatbelts. Change is hard, but seems it’s really hard for others.
"...and unless otherwise authorized by ATC..." Although inconvenient, doesn't the rules indicate that ATC can directly allow a non-ADSB-out flight? ATC is not the same as contacting the FAA with correspondence, yet the rules clearly discuss ATC authorization in many places.
That would make perfect sense, you'll communicate with ATC well before you'll contact the FAA for anything. Emergency landing? Better get permission from the FAA! Technically they're the only ones that care about your equipment onboard anyway, ATC cares only that your coms are working so they can, you know, make sure you don't die or anything. This rule only seems to effect older planes that aren't old enough to predate electronics, but glass gauge retrofitting is getting more common, since they definitely help keep mental saturation down.
My unmanned aircraft system is equipped with an ADS-B receiver, and I'll be watching/listening for you in the Charlie where I usually fly. (And I'll actually yield to you by a wide margin.)
The glider exception over the top of Class B and C doesn’t require ADSB out above those areas above 10,000 ft. 91.225 exemption language says:”These aircraft ( non electrical, balloons, gliders) may conduct operations without ADS-B Out in the airspace specified in paragraph (d)(4) of this section.” (The 10,000 ft rule) The ADS B requirement around class B and C airspace only applies up to 10,000 ft: “3) Above the ceiling and within the lateral boundaries of a Class B or Class C airspace area designated for an airport upward to 10,000 feet MSL; Therefore a non-ADSB equipped glider can fly over class B and C but only if above 10,000 ft.
This ADS-B out requirement is real pain for us Canadian aircraft owners. The equipment is completely worthless electrical load and spent money in Canada. Sure ours is coming in the next decade, but it's a completely different system, so the current equipment probably isn't useful then either. I do like flying in the US, my customs decal for 2020 is already on, but this is going to limit where I can go and equipping my plane has a very low value. I'll stop whining now.
Would love a video titled: "So you want to be IFR... "with clarification of "aircraft ifr equipped" and "ifr certified aircraft" detailing faa certifications and equipment requirements and introducing various products available for retrofit to give instrument approach capabilities using GPS, VOR/ILS, dme etc. Of course with the little certified or experimental aircraft owner in mind.
Paul you continue to be a voice of common sense to our industry. Of course me agreeing with you could be our similar ages, or we both have instructed way too many students in our careers, but I suspect the real reason we are not seeing more early and now late adopters (prior to the implementation date) are the associated costs of compliance without a perceived tangible personal benefit. Avionics after ten years SHOULD be dirt cheap by now and there's the rub, spending more dollars on a system that we have been doing seemingly fine without up til now. Just like transponders that assist ATC they get the primary benefits but we pay. However with ADS-B In, that should be super real time good for us in the cockpit, so folks, even reluctantly let's all get aboard. BTW a belated Merry Christmas to you too!
I don't think the "No under shelves" is correct as he does not specify "Class B" only and that's only because of the 30 mi. ring... It is OK to fly under Class C shelves. I am surprised that this error was made by him... He needs more clarification.
@@kevina8172 FAA web site says different. Nothing has changed from before. No additional restrictions. Under the class C shelf would be new. If you can post something that I am missing then please correct me. Class A, B, and C airspace; Class E airspace at or above 10,000 feet msl, excluding airspace at and below 2,500 feet agl; Within 30 nautical miles of a Class B primary airport (the Mode C veil); Above the ceiling and within the lateral boundaries of Class B or Class C airspace up to 10,000 feet; Class E airspace over the Gulf of Mexico, at and above 3,000 feet msl, within 12 nm of the U.S. coast.
Kenneth is correct. The video is misleading. I was also surprised that Paul missed this and I would like to see him walk it back so he isn't adding more confusion to this topic.
I have an occassional trip to PEoria, but if I can't get into the main airport at night to get gas and if I have to go to Lacan to stay out from under the shelf, it will be a less safe trip. I normally go into Mt Hawley. This may kill that airport. I can see it killing Bentonville Arkansas, Bird Field near SGF, the little GA field south of Tulsa, and a few others. It's gonna cause a few unforseen consequences.
It's my understanding that flying 'under the shelf' of Class C airspace does NOT require ADS-B Out. See this graphic on the FAA.gov website: www.faa.gov/nextgen/equipadsb/research/airspace/media/airspaceRequirements.jpg It would probably not be required under the shelves of Class B were it not for the 30-mile Mode C veil.
This was a very nice summary, Paul, presented in an entertaining manner and with a good sense of humor. Thank you! Something I've been hurting my head over, and maybe an idea for an article or video for you: what is going to be different in mandate airspace after January 1? Every time I talk to an air traffic controller, their answer is 'nothing'. If that's true, why the mandate? I'm not at all opposed to ADS-B - I have both 'in' and 'out' in my cockpit and love the information it gives me - but for the life of me I cannot figure out what the FAA is going to do with it come January 2020. Thanks also for the Cedar Rapids Beer Summit reference; I live in that town and did not know we had this coming up. I may have to check it out! Best, Martin
Try to quietly watch a nice, informative TH-cam video in my industrial plant control room... Get blasted with a super obnoxious and borderline unnecessarily loud siren, and in turn freaking out and pissing off all of my co-workers. Thanks, Paul...
91.225 says: "3) Above the ceiling and within the lateral boundaries of a Class B or Class C airspace area designated for an airport upward to 10,000 feet MSL" There is no differentiation between flying under a Class B or Class C shelf. The regulation simply prohibits both.
How do you get out of an airport that you used the exception to land? Do you have to request another exception to depart or are you covered for the departure?
Was freaking out about this before I bought my ‘47 Taylorcraft. Flight school drilled regs into me for weeks only for me to go out and buy a plane where they don’t apply😂
I don’t find anything saying we can’t fly under the shelf in class C. You said that we can’t fly under the shelves and I’m wondering if that includes C. It says lateral boundaries which I interpret to mean current mode c requirements. Please elaborate. I’m only right sometimes!
I assumed we could fly in under the Class C shelf as well, but after I watched this, I looked up the actual law. CFR 92 point whatever it is. It says ADS-B required within the lateral boundaries, which would include within, above, AND under the shelf, making the entirety of the lateral boundaries of Class C dead airspace without ADS-B. Don't trust the FAA website (which appears to have been changed at some time in the past few weeks on this), or the FAA safety magazine they hand out at the safety seminars-they appear to be wrong according to a plain english reading of the actual law.
@@kellytrimble4120 can you please provide the actual reference? the one I see never says anything about under shelves. it only says above: 91.225 (d)(3) "Above the ceiling and within the lateral boundaries of a Class B or Class C airspace area designated for an airport upward to 10,000 feet MSL"
Per this graphic, you indeed can fly under the shelf of Class C airspace without ADS-B - the lateral boundary applies to flying ABOVE the Class C airspace. www.faa.gov/nextgen/equipadsb/research/airspace/media/airspaceRequirements.jpg This is also explaned here: www.faa.gov/nextgen/equipadsb/research/airspace/
@@FlyingLessons The way it is worded is ambiguous. A plain english reading could interpret it as above the ceiling of B&C requires it and within the lateral boundaries, including under the shelf, requires it, or it could be interpreted as areas above the B or C ceiling that are also within the lateral boundaries, but it isn't written that way. Whoever did this video obviously interpreted it to include under the shelf, and I fully expect somebody somewhere will get violated on it by some arrogant controller having a case of the ass against somebody for whatever reason, and when that guy proves he was actually under the shelf, whoever violated him will fall back to saying the reg actually includes the area under the shelf. You always have to assume that ambiguous wordings will be interpreted against you at the enforcement level. Even if I might be right to assume it to be legal without equipment under the shelf, I can't even afford to try to defend myself against a violation action no matter how legal I turn out to be. My policy needs to be if there is any ambiguity, don't go there. This video is proof that reasonable people could interpret it the opposite way. So until the ambiguity is cleared up by an actual official pronouncement or rewording of the rule by the FAA, I have no choice but to consider 'under the shelf' to be dead airspace.
We were not too excited about seat belt laws either, but we have learned to buckle up. No fender benders up there. Best insurance yet devised. Embrace it!
I have a family member who drives around for hours with the seat belt alarm going off because he refuses to wear it and can't figure out how to disable the alarm. No joke.
Many of the Towers I've asked if they have ADS-B receivers/capability and I haven't found one yet that does so how will they know if we have ADS-B out?
Part 121 flights aren't held to Part 91 requirements. Interesting thing happens when airliners fly under Part 91, which they do occasionally (ferry/maintenance flights, etc.) IMO, the FAA looks the other way.
Now that the bean counters can see who you are, you'll be getting the bill for utilizing airspace and ATC on the next go around of GA taxation. I'm sure EAA and AOPA will take that up the wazoo as readily as ADS-B.
As far as I know, you're not actually required to verify an ADS-B installation though. You can just fly it and then run a performance report afterward (nbaa.org/aircraft-operations/communications-navigation-surveillance-cns/ads-b/verify-your-ads-b-performance-with-free-faa-web-tool/) I guess if ATC says "We don't see you on ADS-B" then you'll know it's not working. :) Would be the same if your Mode C transponder quit.
@@svp2587 Yes, like every flight student ive learned the "pen and paper" flight planning in flight school. Its slow, ineffective, can put alot of workload on the pilot when flying in unfamiliar areas and has its limitations (cant fly above clouds for example as that would make navigation impossible). Good luck flying like that on a long cross country, i wouldnt want to do it. With a GPS i know where i am immediately, i can fly the most direct route without the need to take diversions for landmarks that are easier to spot. GPS outage? Thats why you still carry the old fashioned map as a backup, its still useful for that, just not as a primary navigation device. The same things apply to spotting other traffic. Every airplane has blindspots, scanning the skies constantly takes alot of focus and is impossible to do constantly on a long flight, many times airplanes blend in with the background so well that they become almost impossible to spot, thats why midair collisions and near misses are still a thing in the GA world. Its been a long time since two airliners collided, and why is that? Because they can see the traffic around them on their computer screens (and have ATC of course). Youre saying that all the modern stuff keeps pilots from flying the plane, i find the opposite to be true. If i need to spend less time for navigation (GPS) and looking out for traffic i can use that extra capacity i now have for flying.
Great video as usual, and merry Christmas... but there's a slight problem at th-cam.com/video/gnSeOR3nnx0/w-d-xo.html. Thank god I do not wear headphones, because if I did I think I'd be hearing a ringing noise all day, but I have large PC speakers and that alarm sound practically blew out the cones on the speakers compared to the rest of the video. The volume discrepancy was HUGE. I'd love to se better audio editing for these videos, but regardless thanks for all the great content!
Hey @avweb, how about the situation where I'm based in a class C but the plane is undergoing annual. The adsb out won't be installed and ready for test flight until mid January? Do I just fill out that form so I can do the adsb test flight?
Lateral boundary of CLASS C? This would include under the shelf, no? The Shelf is within the lateral boundary, right? "Question questions question clouding the minds of so many young people today".
Well, if you look at the average volume in his videos, it's way under standard normalization of -1dB. Honestly, that's a major improvement he could make before uploading, and it would help improve content quality. I put this up to show the difference if you normalize the voice first. th-cam.com/video/54ld5GdCg6A/w-d-xo.html
So if my understanding is correct, the ADSB rules are almost identical to transponder rules? What I’m wondering is if one HAS a transponder and or ADSB installed, and is flying in an area where it’s not required (say, Class E airspace) must they be operating?
You said anything under the shelf meaning under class B & C shelves but the FAA website shows this diagram that shows ADS-B is NOT required under the class C shelf. So which is it? www.faa.gov/nextgen/equipadsb/research/airspace/media/airspaceRequirements.jpg
If it isn't required under the shelf of Class C, then why do they bother saying "Lateral Boundaries"? They *could* have just said: "(3) Within, and up to 10,000 feet MSL above the ceiling of, Class B or Class C airspace area designated for an airport"? FAA is crazy.
The language is explained in the second video. You have read it together "above the ceiling and within lateral boundaries." I didn't explain it clearly in this video.
AVweb I think you need to correct the no under shelves statement you are making. It is perfectly legal to fly under the Class C shelves provided you are not in another type airspace preventing it.
ADSB makes us all safer. In my opinion there should be be no airplane in the air without it. Old boomer airplanes included. Let's not talk about airplanes without a radio. Just letting you know that that we all are secretly judging you.
NORDOs would be okay if everyone also had ADS-B in, and the system showed people's notional intended route. Little tougher for a sailplane though. The NAS is still in the stone age, and will always be.
I disagree. I've had ONE trip in the past two years that i could not have made without ADS-B. The economics are simply not there for it. A lot of people will be flying around the periphery of Class C to get to outlying airports on the other side and no longer talking to ATC, and no longer using flight following. The first two or three times some approach controller vectors somebody without it through prohibited airspace and then violate them for it, and word gets around, even if not totally true, people will stop using ATC for flight following and will stop talking to approach at all when circumnavigating the Class C or Class B to get to an outlying airport. And then you will have somebody without ADS--B on the edge of congested airspace no longer talking to anybody. I don't think they thought this thru. I think they made the judgement like you without evidence that everybody should be required to have it because it is nice for people who can afford the ADS-B In equipment. It's not gonna work quite as expected, IMHO.
@@kellytrimble4120 Kelly Trimble You are right it is judgment call. The same rules apply for me and cars without seat belt and airbags. As for affordable. The ADSB requirement is 10 years old. Which is $33.00 per month for a 4k installation. At any point in the last ten years one could have started saving up for it. Of course this is easy for me to say I just rent and you seem to own. But too expensive is not a valid argument for anyone out there.
@@FrankBredow It's a very valid argument. I have twenty airplanes, mostly collectible. I was just explaining in another comment, I have one, a Culver V, which is nice, with radios GPS, whatever, not worth more than probably $ 12,000. $4k is simply not feasible. Second, I've analyzed my flying. In the past two years I made ONE trip that would have required ADS-B under the new rules, assuming we can fly under the shelf, and I really should have driven that one anyway. ADS-B simply doesn't pencil out. Sorry. Third, if you saved your pennies for ten years like you said, when you finally do install it, you need to start saving pennies again, because you will probably have to do it again. The experience with GPS is that the manufacturers quit supporting them with updated maps after a few years. We put Appollo 2001 GPS units, IFR certified and everything in probably seven or eight airplanes, put MX-20 moving maps in I think three or four of them, and they are all junk. After about ten years you couldn't get map updates. And there is some funky tech reason why some older GPS units don't work at all anymore, not even for VFR. That is the way avionics are headed. You get a big sell, spend a lot of money, and then you are required to do it again in six to ten years to stay current. AND I suspect there is some sort of ongoing maintenance or inspection requirement that will be coming on these if it isn't already there. Sorry, the economics are simply not there for it. I think it will result in a less safe flying environment. It is great for all of the big iron people who don't like having to look for traffic, but it will result in a lot of people who should be using flight following no longer doing so. I use VFR flight following all the time, almost every trip over thirty minutes. This thread has got me thinking and I am concluding that talking to ATC won't make any sense unless and until you are approaching the boundary of a Class D you intend to land at. I think other people are going to conclude the same thing once they actually think about it and actually do a long VFR cross country. Great for the corporate and commercial guys going in and out of the international airports or into the center of the Class C airports, but less safe out in the sticks.
You can fly under the class C shelves. It is typically class E airspace not C and there is no "veil" rule. Here is the FAA's own diagram. www.faa.gov/nextgen/equipadsb/research/airspace/media/airspaceRequirements.jpg
The El Paso example at the end is what killed my aviation dreams. I live there and having to drop the money needed to upgrade a 50yr old plane to be in compliance was not worth it to me.
What about tricky Anchorage Alaska airspace? The only way into Merrill field is the East mountain side? The published VFR procedures in class D airspace also say mode C transponder required so does that mean ads-b too?
really good question. Ship creek hi or low never needed a transponder, so I for one still don't get it, I do know I used to fly Birtchwood to Seldovia over or under Anc Class C with or without a transponder, No more with out ADSB
@@kevina8172 " Ship creek hi or low never needed a transponder " No, that's not true. Ship Creek high departure puts you either in, or over Anchorage Class C Airspace, and a Mode C transponder has been required for that for quite a while. The only departures from Merrill Field to the Northwest which would be legal without a Mode-C transponder would be departures which stay below the 600 ft limit of Part 93, an after that, below the 1400 MSL floor of Anchorage Class C. "I used to fly Birtchwood to Seldovia over or under Anc Class C with or without a transponder" Again, flying over Class C Airspace requires a Mode -C transponder, the flight you describe would not be legal (Unless you were flying over 10,000 MSL).
@@andrewalexander9492 so I learned to fly at Merrill in 1975 a lot has changed, Both of my Bonanzas have/had modeC but the cubs did not and They gave ship creek hi all the time. Sold the last Merrill based Champ 20 yrs ago no transponder, so things change, you must be a CFI so can I fly above the 4,100 Class C with ADSB without talking to ATC next month?
Are you sure about needing ADS-B under the shelf of class C? I see conflicting info about that including FAA websites. Reading the regs I can't confirm one way or the other. Depends on what a persons bend of thought is.
Yeah I caught that too. I just had a friend ask me that same question yesterday and all graphics I found that show where ADS-B is required clearly do not include under class C shelves.
@@bushyfly2 Yep. Apparently it's common point of confusion for some reason. I was reading a Pilot's of America thread yesterday and it was a constant yes it is, no its not back and forth lol.
Thank you, Paul, the most informative Scrooge, ever. The investment to comply with the Big Brother FAA’s requirement is an insurance policy that can save not only your life but also possibly hundreds of lives should your very bad day include a collision with an airliner.
@@cleburne-dfwseptic6843 Perhaps not, but lots of light aircraft hitting each other. My plane has no rear window. I can see forward, up, and to the sides only. No view whatsoever down, or back. Unlike an automobile, there are many more blind spots in a plane, and speeds are much greater. Seat belts save lives. So will ADS-B.
B. E. Russell It’s rare but it happened 42 years ago when there was much less traffic and the airliner crew lost sight of the Cessna. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/PSA_Flight_182
Any airspace where airliners regularly operate already requires a Mode C (altitude encoding) transponder. That's all the FAA needs in addition to their primary radar to prevent collisions. ADS-B won't prevent domestic airliner collisions. It may prevent some domestic GA-GA collisions, though, which happen far to often. As far as ATC goes, I think the main benefit they see is they get ground-track info from ADS-B that is much more real-time than radar.
Paul, Surface to 10,000 in Class C need ADSB? this is what my local Radio shop is telling me, but the Faa rep is saying they did not change the airspace for transponder requirements
Above the Class C and the Class B to 10,000, you need ADS-B Out. Within Mode-C veil, you need ADS-B out including under shelves of B. Not needed under shelves of C.
@@AVweb Can you make this a top level comment and pin it to the top of the comment section? The video implies that we cannot fly under a Class C shelf without ADSB, which seems to be leading to some confusion. Thanks for the video.
![[LIVE] : ONE ลุมพินี 87 วันนี้!! คู่เอก "ก้องชัย vs โชคปรีชา"](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/YN6e7HVnekw/mqdefault.jpg)
Man oh man that siren was loud…
Got my attention too!!
My wife was trying to sleep in the next room over, when she goes to bed she always tells me to be sure to check my volume, in other words, keep it low so it won't wake her up, I'm going to plead insanity, or at least pretend I don't know what she's talking about, wish me luck.
That was horrible
Sam Biscits plead Paul Bertorelli. Works for almost anything.
It's 5 am and 20 minutes and I just woke up 20 minutes ago watching this with my cup of coffee and I thought I forgot to turn off my alarm. That wasn't really necessary.
Hearing gets destroyed at 6:38
Ya, I had headphones on.
Yep, that was almost as unpleasant as the ADS-B mandate.
Dam guys, your siren blew my ears out. Now I think I have to go back to the medical examiner to get a new restriction on my medical.
Headphone warning would've been nice.
when you dont read comments first.... to late...
Sure glad I wasn't reaching for my coffee.
Paul is the best aviation news presenter, love his dry humor! He needs millions of views! More videos from him please!!
I have a few friends that are complaining about it...
The regs came out in early 2010. You had 10 years
Most installs are between 2-4k.
While not pocket change, its still very cheap when it comes to planes. My families last cross country trip cost more than that in fuel.
"But my plane is worth only $15k." I've read that a lot. Irrelevant, IMHO.
@@roytee3127 i have not seen a 15k plane that would be required to add ads-b that did not need 25k+ in work.
@@tylergordon696 Mine is a $20k plane that only needs $1,500 for ads-B out....
@@roytee3127 That sounds like somebody who is flying with somebody else paying the bills. Sort of arrogant IMHO.
I've got twenty airplanes. Putting ADS-B in all of them would be asinine expensive. I made ONE trip in the past two years that I could not have made without ADS-B under the new rules, assuming you can go under the shelf of Class C, and I didn't really need to make that trip in a plane. The economics simply don't compute, at least not for me.
And I've got a Culver V Satellite that is pretty nice, has radios GPS etc. Not a popular plane and probably not worth much more than about $ 12,000. I'm not doing ADS-B in it until they get the cost down to about that of an ELT.
And BTW, why exactly is it two to six grand? What it is supposed to do isn't that amazing. It's like a simple GPS and a beacon that should be as easy to install as an ELT. It really should be about three or four hundred bucks. Somebody is getting rich off of this requirement. I wonder if those people, whomever they area, had something to do with it being adopted.
Its all about the certification...
I am a gc, saftey glasses are a big deal in my industry. my 3 m safety glasses that are tested and rated by ansi( think faa only slightly better) are $50 a pair. My ones that are identical minus the embossed ansi number( from the head of 3m on the west coast) are $10. Hell i have a pair of oakleys that are rated to stop a 22 lr that i have had since i was in the coast guard are not even legal for mw to use.
What it all boils down to is testing. Just look at modern avionics and the difference between certifed and experimental. Its a sick joke.
Excellent Paul! Thanks for posting. Educational AND entertaining!
"Oh, and Merry Christmas." Classic Paul 😂 🤣
Thank for blowing out my eardrums with the buzzer
My glider is exempt (no "electrical system") but I decided to install ADS-B out on it. Since I already am flying with a Trig 22 transponder and since my glider is 'Experimental' category, that was quite easy. The Garmin/Trig GPS receiver that works with the T22 is $350, the antenna is $50 and I also installed a squat switch to run the SIL 3 configuration. All works well and my FAA Performance Report came back with perfect results. Here on the edge of the Chicago B airspace I want to be seen!!! Battery drain is negligible and I see that as just an excuse. Btw., we squawk the "glider code" 1202 at all times unless directed otherwise.
LOL, my cub gets wheezy over a 1000 ft LOL
It's true. The Cub flies like crap. I have approximately 100 hours in Cubs and they just suck to fly. Poor visibility, control surfaces that don't work, a completely dead engine, light wing loading so your bounce all over the place. I hate that plane.
@@pittss2c601 I disagree, I have over a thousand hours in a cub that my father owned. And we didn't have any issue with it except the gutlessness of the engine above 2500 foot asl. Eventually he had a custom engineered turbo put in it and we didn't have any more issues after that,we've been climbed to 9500 foot over the tehachapi mountain ranges in California
Blown speaker alert at 6:37
Paul, too bad you didn't have a brother. Sometimes you need a big brother to slap you upside the head. In my 4,000 hours of private flying, I have had three "near-death experiences." One time I was saved by a competent and caring approach controller out of Tampa who spotted what turned out to be a C182 evidently doing emergency decent practice above me about 80 nm North of TPA. I was IFR and the other pilot was not using flight following. It took 3 evasive maneuver commands to get me away from him. and prevent the collision. He, of course, never knew the better. Next it was my eagle-eyed daughter, then 18, who spotted an old Taylorcraft flying the wrong way, right out of the sun, turning downwind to Runway 18 at KIRS. Sturgis, MI. If not for her last-second scream "Daddy" and pointing, then my instinctive haul-ass to the right, all 3 of us would have been history. The pilot and I had a "discussion" about his choice not to use his hand-held radio and fly the opposite way in a pattern. Finally, I had one of those "in the freakin' middle of nowhere" encounters over Oklahoma on a long, slow descent into a rural airport and had just fallen below radar coverage. A big twin overtook me from behind, evidently climbing out of a private strip, nose up, not using his radio, he never saw me butI felt the pressure wave from above just prior to the big shadow and the roar of his engines even through my Lightspeeds. Scared the bejesus out of me. I hope my point is obvious. ADS-B, fully complied with, would have avoided all three of these scenarios. So you and your "exempt" friends should think twice, no, five times, before deciding not to buy the damn unit, the battery, whatever it takes, and comply anyway. The life you save might be your own ... or maybe mine, too. (you may say that was not the point of your post. Moot point. It should have been mentioned.)
Well said
You blew out one of my speakers with that siren...
There's an inaccuracy here. The regulations do not say you cannot fly under the shelf of class Charlie. Only class bravo shelves by virtue of being inside the mode c veil.
I saw that in this video, and I assumed what you are saying, largely because that is how it was described in the little safety magazine that the FAA puts out at the pilots meetings several months ago, but if you look up the actual law, which I just did after I heard this, it says 'lateral boundaries' of the Class B and C AND the mode C veils. That means under the shelf. I'm not gonna be the one to test what the FAA actually means. I think it means Class C lateral boundaries, within, over, and under, should all be treated as dead airspace, in addition to Class B Mode C veils. I, for one, have learned not to trust ANYBODY's advice on what the law is when their job performance is measured on how many people they can violate. I don't plan on trusting anything the FAA says on their website or their newsletters on subject's like this or what is reported in AOPA or whatever as to what the FAA tells them until this ambiguity is cleared up, so read the actual law. You can find it with a couple of google searches. It says nothing about under the shelf being legal. It says lateral boundaries. So this video just might be right on that.
However, they also point out that the law says 'after Jan 1', which would appear to mean Jan 2 or thereafter, not Jan 1, but I wouldn't trust some controller somewhere violating you on Jan 1. So this is the other way, even though the law says one thing, I suspect the individual controllers are all assuming the same Jan 1 that we were all assuming for the past couple of years.
@@kellytrimble4120 your reading and mine of 91.225(d) (3) are quite different. To me it says above only, with exactly the same language as 91.215: "Above the ceiling and within the lateral boundaries of a Class B or Class C airspace area designated for an airport upward to 10,000 feet MSL"
@@FlyingLessons Yes, you are exactly right. A reasonable person with a background in the subject would assume exactly what you are assuming and what I was assuming it meant, reinforced with prior information, a lot of it from the FAA. But reasonable people could interpret it to mean under the shelf, as evidenced by the people who made this video. If there is an ambiguity, which this vid suggests there might be, I'm not going there until it is cleared up. If you can't go in the lateral boundaries of a Class C, and you have to just stay out of them, then there is really no reason to ever talk to approach. If there is no reason to talk to approach on your way in or way out of an airport just outside of the Class C, I suspect there may be no good reason to ever try to do VFR flight following. The potential for getting violated on this is one more reason a lot of people who need flight following and approach radar services will have to not talk to ATC. When I cross country, I am constantly crossing thru Class C and sometimes going over Class B and frequently go thru Class C at the destination to get to a small airport on the other side, so I don't worry about whether I'm in or out or around or whatever, I just don't think about it. This has me thinking I need to simply steer clear of Class C altogether and not talk to ATC at all unless I'm landing at a Class D. I think that is less safe, but that's what the incentive structure will be. I hadn't really thought of it until I watched this video. You may be right in your interpretation, the same I had, but I can't chance it.
@@littlegreenman1 Yup that's the same graphic I saw in the FAA safety magazine they hand out at the Wings seminars. But if you read the actual reg, it could be interpreted as prohibiting flight under the shelf of the Class C, which is obviously the interpretation of the people making this video, and maybe some controller somewhere looking to gain brownie points for violating people for stuff. That ambiguity needs to be cleared up before I go under the shelf.
@@kellytrimble4120 the word AND means both the vertical and lateral conditions must be met in order for that rule to apply (otherwise it would say OR.) Besides that, it aligns with the Mode C requirements which the FAA has made clear was their intent from the beginning. And finally, if there was a challenge from the FAA, all you'd have to do is show them their own official graphic.
The issue is important because there are many Class C cutouts for GA airports around the country. All of those airports would essentially be closed to non-ADS-B aircraft as of 1/2 if the rule applied there. But fortunately, it doesn't.
What amazes me is that this whole gov't campaign looks so very much like the ELD (Electronic Logging Device) push for commercial vehicles.
As an aside, both of these happened alongside another less obvious change. Look at the electronics included in modern automobiles post 2010.
Merry Christmas. Excellent instructional video.
Haha I wondered why the video was so quiet until the alarm :)
“Stifling Government Overreach” - that’s what they do for perceived good or bad...
This is a measure of how many airplanes don't do annuals too.
We do annuals, every year - and have never flown out of annual except on a ferry permit. No ADS-B Out installed yet.
This idea that people who haven't done an ADS-B upgrade by the deadline are somehow delinquent owners is frustrating and ridiculous. I don't have a spare $2k laying around for non-essential avionics. It's that simple.
Increased safety for all in the air IS NOT non-essential avionics, It’s joining the 20th century ! We have to constantly improve, not stay stuck in the past...
By that definition you could argue anything that potentially improves safety is "essential". Good luck fitting TCAS on a J-3 Cub. Don't have an AOA indicator? It increases safety so it must be essential right?
@@hempelcx The opposite argument is that anything that improves safety is optional! I am sure there are many Libertarians that believe that.
There is a balance, of course. If ADSB were $250 installed would more of those people without it get it? Sure. Same thing is true about TCAS....if it were a few hundred bucks and weighed a few ounces and were tiny would many GA airplanes start putting it in (particularly those that fly high and in crowded with commercial traffic airspaces), yeah. A lot depends on your mission and the airspace you fly in. My original comment didn't consider that because I fly in a crowded airspace near a large mode c veil near a couple of charlie airports so I just saw it from my perspective. For my mission, I see it as a requirement IMHO.
Paul could have been a standup comedian. But, this is best summation I've heard. I've had ADS B in/out for a long time, but this was still worth hearing Paul Bertirelli (sp). Loved it.
Merry Christmas Paul. Very informative video.
This would be riveting with an initial explanation of ADS-B. As a flight simmer I'm fascinated in real world aviation stuff. Edit: Googled, got it. Very interesting!
Great video!
This is the "sad but true" reality of the modern day general aviation.
I am not sure why anyone would not want ADS B. Big Brother, or no electrical system is not reason not to install it. It does enhance your safety. I remember when certain people were arguing against antilock brakes, air bags, and seatbelts. Change is hard, but seems it’s really hard for others.
"...and unless otherwise authorized by ATC..." Although inconvenient, doesn't the rules indicate that ATC can directly allow a non-ADSB-out flight? ATC is not the same as contacting the FAA with correspondence, yet the rules clearly discuss ATC authorization in many places.
That would make perfect sense, you'll communicate with ATC well before you'll contact the FAA for anything. Emergency landing? Better get permission from the FAA! Technically they're the only ones that care about your equipment onboard anyway, ATC cares only that your coms are working so they can, you know, make sure you don't die or anything. This rule only seems to effect older planes that aren't old enough to predate electronics, but glass gauge retrofitting is getting more common, since they definitely help keep mental saturation down.
Aughhhhh BUT THE RULES!!! The rules say!!!! 🤓🤓🤓🤓 The rules!!!!! CLEARLY STATES! THE RULES!!!!!!!!!!!!! BUT THE RULES SAY!!!!!!!
I have no clue what your talking about and have never flown an airplane but you still are very interesting to watch.
I would love to see it look more like TCAS.
Pretty sure I haven't met this Bertorelli character but he knows way too much about my strategy for managing change. And he is judging me.
My unmanned aircraft system is equipped with an ADS-B receiver, and I'll be watching/listening for you in the Charlie where I usually fly. (And I'll actually yield to you by a wide margin.)
The glider exception over the top of Class B and C doesn’t require ADSB out above those areas above 10,000 ft.
91.225 exemption language says:”These aircraft ( non electrical, balloons, gliders) may conduct operations without ADS-B Out in the airspace specified in paragraph (d)(4) of this section.” (The 10,000 ft rule)
The ADS B requirement around class B and C airspace only applies up to 10,000 ft: “3) Above the ceiling and within the lateral boundaries of a Class B or Class C airspace area designated for an airport upward to 10,000 feet MSL;
Therefore a non-ADSB equipped glider can fly over class B and C but only if above 10,000 ft.
This ADS-B out requirement is real pain for us Canadian aircraft owners. The equipment is completely worthless electrical load and spent money in Canada. Sure ours is coming in the next decade, but it's a completely different system, so the current equipment probably isn't useful then either. I do like flying in the US, my customs decal for 2020 is already on, but this is going to limit where I can go and equipping my plane has a very low value. I'll stop whining now.
Boo hoo. Canadians are a laugh.
The best jingle at the beginning and the end!
A great new year start!
You are leaving out the entire experimental world. Don't need a shop...can install ourselves.
Paul thanks for sharing. Always very informative with a great satire. 10/10
Would love a video titled: "So you want to be IFR... "with clarification of "aircraft ifr equipped" and "ifr certified aircraft" detailing faa certifications and equipment requirements and introducing various products available for retrofit to give instrument approach capabilities using GPS, VOR/ILS, dme etc. Of course with the little certified or experimental aircraft owner in mind.
Paul you continue to be a voice of common sense to our industry. Of course me agreeing with you could be our similar ages, or we both have instructed way too many students in our careers, but I suspect the real reason we are not seeing more early and now late adopters (prior to the implementation date) are the associated costs of compliance without a perceived tangible personal benefit. Avionics after ten years SHOULD be dirt cheap by now and there's the rub, spending more dollars on a system that we have been doing seemingly fine without up til now. Just like transponders that assist ATC they get the primary benefits but we pay. However with ADS-B In, that should be super real time good for us in the cockpit, so folks, even reluctantly let's all get aboard. BTW a belated Merry Christmas to you too!
I don't think the "No under shelves" is correct as he does not specify "Class B" only and that's only because of the 30 mi. ring... It is OK to fly under Class C shelves. I am surprised that this error was made by him... He needs more clarification.
I think your wrong, no more under or over Class C without ADSB IMO
@@kevina8172 FAA web site says different. Nothing has changed from before. No additional restrictions. Under the class C shelf would be new. If you can post something that I am missing then please correct me.
Class A, B, and C airspace;
Class E airspace at or above 10,000 feet msl, excluding airspace at and below 2,500 feet agl;
Within 30 nautical miles of a Class B primary airport (the Mode C veil);
Above the ceiling and within the lateral boundaries of Class B or Class C airspace up to 10,000 feet;
Class E airspace over the Gulf of Mexico, at and above 3,000 feet msl, within 12 nm of the U.S. coast.
I think the entire Mode C veil might be off limits but I'm not sure.
Kenneth is correct. The video is misleading. I was also surprised that Paul missed this and I would like to see him walk it back so he isn't adding more confusion to this topic.
@@troyhamon6666 On another comment, Paul mentions that is correct, you may still fly under Class C shelves without ADS-B
Thanks for mentioning my home town of Peoria, IL.! We all love to fly and are a very responsible flying community for GA!
I have an occassional trip to PEoria, but if I can't get into the main airport at night to get gas and if I have to go to Lacan to stay out from under the shelf, it will be a less safe trip. I normally go into Mt Hawley. This may kill that airport. I can see it killing Bentonville Arkansas, Bird Field near SGF, the little GA field south of Tulsa, and a few others. It's gonna cause a few unforseen consequences.
It's my understanding that flying 'under the shelf' of Class C airspace does NOT require ADS-B Out. See this graphic on the FAA.gov website: www.faa.gov/nextgen/equipadsb/research/airspace/media/airspaceRequirements.jpg It would probably not be required under the shelves of Class B were it not for the 30-mile Mode C veil.
You can fly under but not over Class C air space without ADS-B
As a retired 68 yo carpenter who has flown a 210 and a lancair 360. I love flying.
Your klaxon towards the end just scared the s(censored)t out of my cat that was on my lap next to my computer... that was funny!!!!
This was a very nice summary, Paul, presented in an entertaining manner and with a good sense of humor. Thank you!
Something I've been hurting my head over, and maybe an idea for an article or video for you: what is going to be different in mandate airspace after January 1? Every time I talk to an air traffic controller, their answer is 'nothing'. If that's true, why the mandate? I'm not at all opposed to ADS-B - I have both 'in' and 'out' in my cockpit and love the information it gives me - but for the life of me I cannot figure out what the FAA is going to do with it come January 2020.
Thanks also for the Cedar Rapids Beer Summit reference; I live in that town and did not know we had this coming up. I may have to check it out!
Best,
Martin
Love your posts, always good value and extremely high on how to fly safely.
Excellent recap Paul! Love your humor. Merry Christmas! Happy ADS-B year! 🤪
5:44 Checked a couple of times to verify which finger Paul was using.
Try to quietly watch a nice, informative TH-cam video in my industrial plant control room... Get blasted with a super obnoxious and borderline unnecessarily loud siren, and in turn freaking out and pissing off all of my co-workers. Thanks, Paul...
3:10 WRONG. You may fly under class C shelf without ADS-B out.
91.225 says: "3) Above the ceiling and within the lateral boundaries of a Class B or Class C airspace area designated for an airport upward to 10,000 feet MSL"
There is no differentiation between flying under a Class B or Class C shelf. The regulation simply prohibits both.
How do you get out of an airport that you used the exception to land? Do you have to request another exception to depart or are you covered for the departure?
Its probably best not the dwell on such minutia.
This exception is most likely to get you to an avionics shop to get the ADS-B installed if you missed the deadline.
Merry Christmas.informative and funny.
G Thanks for waking up the baby with the warning sfx. But that was nothing compared to the shootdown for not having ADS-B. Then I waked the baby.
Do you think maybe we can get some nice deals on Barnstormers because of people not being compliant lol
Was freaking out about this before I bought my ‘47 Taylorcraft.
Flight school drilled regs into me for weeks only for me to go out and buy a plane where they don’t apply😂
I don’t find anything saying we can’t fly under the shelf in class C. You said that we can’t fly under the shelves and I’m wondering if that includes C. It says lateral boundaries which I interpret to mean current mode c requirements. Please elaborate. I’m only right sometimes!
cody gauger: I also want to know where that is as well.
I assumed we could fly in under the Class C shelf as well, but after I watched this, I looked up the actual law. CFR 92 point whatever it is. It says ADS-B required within the lateral boundaries, which would include within, above, AND under the shelf, making the entirety of the lateral boundaries of Class C dead airspace without ADS-B. Don't trust the FAA website (which appears to have been changed at some time in the past few weeks on this), or the FAA safety magazine they hand out at the safety seminars-they appear to be wrong according to a plain english reading of the actual law.
@@kellytrimble4120 can you please provide the actual reference? the one I see never says anything about under shelves. it only says above:
91.225 (d)(3) "Above the ceiling and within the lateral boundaries of a Class B or Class C airspace area designated for an airport upward to 10,000 feet MSL"
Per this graphic, you indeed can fly under the shelf of Class C airspace without ADS-B - the lateral boundary applies to flying ABOVE the Class C airspace.
www.faa.gov/nextgen/equipadsb/research/airspace/media/airspaceRequirements.jpg
This is also explaned here: www.faa.gov/nextgen/equipadsb/research/airspace/
@@FlyingLessons The way it is worded is ambiguous. A plain english reading could interpret it as above the ceiling of B&C requires it and within the lateral boundaries, including under the shelf, requires it, or it could be interpreted as areas above the B or C ceiling that are also within the lateral boundaries, but it isn't written that way. Whoever did this video obviously interpreted it to include under the shelf, and I fully expect somebody somewhere will get violated on it by some arrogant controller having a case of the ass against somebody for whatever reason, and when that guy proves he was actually under the shelf, whoever violated him will fall back to saying the reg actually includes the area under the shelf.
You always have to assume that ambiguous wordings will be interpreted against you at the enforcement level. Even if I might be right to assume it to be legal without equipment under the shelf, I can't even afford to try to defend myself against a violation action no matter how legal I turn out to be. My policy needs to be if there is any ambiguity, don't go there. This video is proof that reasonable people could interpret it the opposite way. So until the ambiguity is cleared up by an actual official pronouncement or rewording of the rule by the FAA, I have no choice but to consider 'under the shelf' to be dead airspace.
One year later and still blowing it off successfully.
The FAA never met my parents. They'd let my brother do whatever he wanted, but me? Well, I "know better", so I couldn't.
He needs to clarify flight under class C airspace. From what I read from FAA it is allowed.
Thanks Paul. Nice translation that even I can understand.
Merry Xmas!!! Well Done video ;-) keep up the Good work!
Nice job, clearly explains the requirements with some humor to keep it interesting.
Just turn your transponder off, and fly at the speed of a Piper Cub
And, that's the height of safety. Good job.
We were not too excited about seat belt laws either, but we have learned to buckle up. No fender benders up there. Best insurance yet devised. Embrace it!
I have a family member who drives around for hours with the seat belt alarm going off because he refuses to wear it and can't figure out how to disable the alarm. No joke.
Many of the Towers I've asked if they have ADS-B receivers/capability and I haven't found one yet that does so how will they know if we have ADS-B out?
Cubs really going to have a market now.
How many part 121 are equipped? I’d say that ‘one time exception’ rule is going to get a lot of exercise in a few days.
Part 121 flights aren't held to Part 91 requirements. Interesting thing happens when airliners fly under Part 91, which they do occasionally (ferry/maintenance flights, etc.) IMO, the FAA looks the other way.
Now that the bean counters can see who you are, you'll be getting the bill for utilizing airspace and ATC on the next go around of GA taxation. I'm sure EAA and AOPA will take that up the wazoo as readily as ADS-B.
Fantastic. Will I need the e-mail permission to get the certification flights done in my plane once the install is complete?
As far as I know, you're not actually required to verify an ADS-B installation though. You can just fly it and then run a performance report afterward (nbaa.org/aircraft-operations/communications-navigation-surveillance-cns/ads-b/verify-your-ads-b-performance-with-free-faa-web-tool/)
I guess if ATC says "We don't see you on ADS-B" then you'll know it's not working. :) Would be the same if your Mode C transponder quit.
The ADSB cost is a small price to pay for the increased safety.
@@svp2587 So how is more technology that takes workload away from the pilot and provides accurate data a bad thing?
@@svp2587 Yes, like every flight student ive learned the "pen and paper" flight planning in flight school. Its slow, ineffective, can put alot of workload on the pilot when flying in unfamiliar areas and has its limitations (cant fly above clouds for example as that would make navigation impossible). Good luck flying like that on a long cross country, i wouldnt want to do it.
With a GPS i know where i am immediately, i can fly the most direct route without the need to take diversions for landmarks that are easier to spot. GPS outage? Thats why you still carry the old fashioned map as a backup, its still useful for that, just not as a primary navigation device.
The same things apply to spotting other traffic. Every airplane has blindspots, scanning the skies constantly takes alot of focus and is impossible to do constantly on a long flight, many times airplanes blend in with the background so well that they become almost impossible to spot, thats why midair collisions and near misses are still a thing in the GA world. Its been a long time since two airliners collided, and why is that? Because they can see the traffic around them on their computer screens (and have ATC of course).
Youre saying that all the modern stuff keeps pilots from flying the plane, i find the opposite to be true. If i need to spend less time for navigation (GPS) and looking out for traffic i can use that extra capacity i now have for flying.
Great video as usual, and merry Christmas... but there's a slight problem at th-cam.com/video/gnSeOR3nnx0/w-d-xo.html. Thank god I do not wear headphones, because if I did I think I'd be hearing a ringing noise all day, but I have large PC speakers and that alarm sound practically blew out the cones on the speakers compared to the rest of the video. The volume discrepancy was HUGE. I'd love to se better audio editing for these videos, but regardless thanks for all the great content!
Hey @avweb, how about the situation where I'm based in a class C but the plane is undergoing annual. The adsb out won't be installed and ready for test flight until mid January? Do I just fill out that form so I can do the adsb test flight?
See and be seen. Would you turn off your beacon and nav lights to save battery power at night?
In IMC? Absolutely.
Lateral boundary of CLASS C? This would include under the shelf, no? The Shelf is within the lateral boundary, right? "Question questions question clouding the minds of so many young people today".
Sooo... is there an ADS-B that just does all relevant freqs and both In & Out for both domestic AND international for on-the-cheap?
Wtf with that alarm sound? It was so loud me and both of my dogs jumped out of our skins!.
Well, if you look at the average volume in his videos, it's way under standard normalization of -1dB.
Honestly, that's a major improvement he could make before uploading, and it would help improve content quality.
I put this up to show the difference if you normalize the voice first. th-cam.com/video/54ld5GdCg6A/w-d-xo.html
So if my understanding is correct, the ADSB rules are almost identical to transponder rules? What I’m wondering is if one HAS a transponder and or ADSB installed, and is flying in an area where it’s not required (say, Class E airspace) must they be operating?
You said anything under the shelf meaning under class B & C shelves but the FAA website shows this diagram that shows ADS-B is NOT required under the class C shelf. So which is it? www.faa.gov/nextgen/equipadsb/research/airspace/media/airspaceRequirements.jpg
Informative, but I think your wrong on one thing. As far as I can see you CAN fly under the class C shelf. Can anyone clarify if I’m wrong or right?
If it isn't required under the shelf of Class C, then why do they bother saying "Lateral Boundaries"? They *could* have just said: "(3) Within, and up to 10,000 feet MSL above the ceiling of, Class B or Class C airspace area designated for an airport"?
FAA is crazy.
The language is explained in the second video. You have read it together "above the ceiling and within lateral boundaries." I didn't explain it clearly in this video.
Thanks for blowing my ear drums out.
Cool, he used my home airport of Punta Gorda for his class D example. I wonder if the rental planes will have ADS B?
Yeah, and it would cost another arm and half a leg to rent now Haha
Hope you can fly with half a limb
AVweb I think you need to correct the no under shelves statement you are making. It is perfectly legal to fly under the Class C shelves provided you are not in another type airspace preventing it.
I'm relatively new to aviation... What do you mean "last vestige from rugged individualism and freedom from stifling overreach"?
ADSB makes us all safer. In my opinion there should be be no airplane in the air without it. Old boomer airplanes included. Let's not talk about airplanes without a radio. Just letting you know that that we all are secretly judging you.
NORDOs would be okay if everyone also had ADS-B in, and the system showed people's notional intended route. Little tougher for a sailplane though. The NAS is still in the stone age, and will always be.
I disagree. I've had ONE trip in the past two years that i could not have made without ADS-B. The economics are simply not there for it. A lot of people will be flying around the periphery of Class C to get to outlying airports on the other side and no longer talking to ATC, and no longer using flight following. The first two or three times some approach controller vectors somebody without it through prohibited airspace and then violate them for it, and word gets around, even if not totally true, people will stop using ATC for flight following and will stop talking to approach at all when circumnavigating the Class C or Class B to get to an outlying airport. And then you will have somebody without ADS--B on the edge of congested airspace no longer talking to anybody. I don't think they thought this thru. I think they made the judgement like you without evidence that everybody should be required to have it because it is nice for people who can afford the ADS-B In equipment. It's not gonna work quite as expected, IMHO.
@@kellytrimble4120 Kelly Trimble You are right it is judgment call. The same rules apply for me and cars without seat belt and airbags. As for affordable. The ADSB requirement is 10 years old. Which is $33.00 per month for a 4k installation. At any point in the last ten years one could have started saving up for it. Of course this is easy for me to say I just rent and you seem to own. But too expensive is not a valid argument for anyone out there.
@@FrankBredow Or $16.50/month for a Uavionics skybeacon or tail beacon. Nothing to it. No excuse.
@@FrankBredow It's a very valid argument. I have twenty airplanes, mostly collectible. I was just explaining in another comment, I have one, a Culver V, which is nice, with radios GPS, whatever, not worth more than probably $ 12,000. $4k is simply not feasible.
Second, I've analyzed my flying. In the past two years I made ONE trip that would have required ADS-B under the new rules, assuming we can fly under the shelf, and I really should have driven that one anyway. ADS-B simply doesn't pencil out. Sorry.
Third, if you saved your pennies for ten years like you said, when you finally do install it, you need to start saving pennies again, because you will probably have to do it again. The experience with GPS is that the manufacturers quit supporting them with updated maps after a few years. We put Appollo 2001 GPS units, IFR certified and everything in probably seven or eight airplanes, put MX-20 moving maps in I think three or four of them, and they are all junk. After about ten years you couldn't get map updates. And there is some funky tech reason why some older GPS units don't work at all anymore, not even for VFR. That is the way avionics are headed. You get a big sell, spend a lot of money, and then you are required to do it again in six to ten years to stay current. AND I suspect there is some sort of ongoing maintenance or inspection requirement that will be coming on these if it isn't already there.
Sorry, the economics are simply not there for it. I think it will result in a less safe flying environment. It is great for all of the big iron people who don't like having to look for traffic, but it will result in a lot of people who should be using flight following no longer doing so. I use VFR flight following all the time, almost every trip over thirty minutes. This thread has got me thinking and I am concluding that talking to ATC won't make any sense unless and until you are approaching the boundary of a Class D you intend to land at. I think other people are going to conclude the same thing once they actually think about it and actually do a long VFR cross country. Great for the corporate and commercial guys going in and out of the international airports or into the center of the Class C airports, but less safe out in the sticks.
You missed a class D in the CT area, you mentioned Tweed, Bridgeport, and Waterbury/Oxford but you missed Sikorsky Heliport.
You can fly under the class C shelves. It is typically class E airspace not C and there is no "veil" rule. Here is the FAA's own diagram. www.faa.gov/nextgen/equipadsb/research/airspace/media/airspaceRequirements.jpg
The El Paso example at the end is what killed my aviation dreams. I live there and having to drop the money needed to upgrade a 50yr old plane to be in compliance was not worth it to me.
Excellent summary. Shows how ridiculously complicated the rules are when bureaucrats write them. No alternative in sight.
I’ll try my new headphones I got for Christmas while watching this video. 6:39 RIP my ears!
Thank you for the video.
What about tricky Anchorage Alaska airspace? The only way into Merrill field is the East mountain side? The published VFR procedures in class D airspace also say mode C transponder required so does that mean ads-b too?
jpoppinmoneyunit I’m just hoping it’s not needed to fly in the pattern at Merrill until I can get mine installed.
really good question. Ship creek hi or low never needed a transponder, so I for one still don't get it, I do know I used to fly Birtchwood to Seldovia over or under Anc Class C with or without a transponder, No more with out ADSB
kevin arseneau wow you admit to being up ship creek? I’ve been there without a paddle here in Oz!
@@kevina8172
" Ship creek hi or low never needed a transponder "
No, that's not true. Ship Creek high departure puts you either in, or over Anchorage Class C Airspace, and a Mode C transponder has been required for that for quite a while. The only departures from Merrill Field to the Northwest which would be legal without a Mode-C transponder would be departures which stay below the 600 ft limit of Part 93, an after that, below the 1400 MSL floor of Anchorage Class C.
"I used to fly Birtchwood to Seldovia over or under Anc Class C with or without a transponder"
Again, flying over Class C Airspace requires a Mode -C transponder, the flight you describe would not be legal (Unless you were flying over 10,000 MSL).
@@andrewalexander9492 so I learned to fly at Merrill in 1975 a lot has changed, Both of my Bonanzas have/had modeC but the cubs did not and They gave ship creek hi all the time. Sold the last Merrill based Champ 20 yrs ago no transponder, so things change, you must be a CFI so can I fly above the 4,100 Class C with ADSB without talking to ATC
next month?
Are you sure about needing ADS-B under the shelf of class C? I see conflicting info about that including FAA websites. Reading the regs I can't confirm one way or the other. Depends on what a persons bend of thought is.
Under shelves of Class B only.
@@AVweb Thank you
Yeah I caught that too. I just had a friend ask me that same question yesterday and all graphics I found that show where ADS-B is required clearly do not include under class C shelves.
@@tonytheflyer Glad we got clarification on that. Thanks to Paul.
@@bushyfly2 Yep. Apparently it's common point of confusion for some reason. I was reading a Pilot's of America thread yesterday and it was a constant yes it is, no its not back and forth lol.
I’m no expert on this topic, but don’t your non-electrical aircraft still have to use the online app?
I don't even know what ADS-B is. I still watched though....
man, my audiometry test is tomorrow...
The brudder rule. Merry xmss
Great video - thanks!
Thank you, Paul, the most informative Scrooge, ever. The investment to comply with the Big Brother FAA’s requirement is an insurance policy that can save not only your life but also possibly hundreds of lives should your very bad day include a collision with an airliner.
i was wondering when the last time a GA aircraft ran into an airliner hmmm
@@cleburne-dfwseptic6843 Perhaps not, but lots of light aircraft hitting each other. My plane has no rear window. I can see forward, up, and to the sides only. No view whatsoever down, or back. Unlike an automobile, there are many more blind spots in a plane, and speeds are much greater. Seat belts save lives. So will ADS-B.
B. E. Russell It’s rare but it happened 42 years ago when there was much less traffic and the airliner crew lost sight of the Cessna. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/PSA_Flight_182
Any airspace where airliners regularly operate already requires a Mode C (altitude encoding) transponder. That's all the FAA needs in addition to their primary radar to prevent collisions.
ADS-B won't prevent domestic airliner collisions. It may prevent some domestic GA-GA collisions, though, which happen far to often. As far as ATC goes, I think the main benefit they see is they get ground-track info from ADS-B that is much more real-time than radar.
i.b. hemp Thank you for the additional information.
Paul, Surface to 10,000 in Class C need ADSB? this is what my local Radio shop is telling me, but the Faa rep is saying they did not change the airspace for transponder requirements
Above the Class C and the Class B to 10,000, you need ADS-B Out. Within Mode-C veil, you need ADS-B out including under shelves of B. Not needed under shelves of C.
@@AVweb Can you make this a top level comment and pin it to the top of the comment section? The video implies that we cannot fly under a Class C shelf without ADSB, which seems to be leading to some confusion. Thanks for the video.
@@AVweb Please pin your comment to the top of the comments to help correct your error.
I'm outta kpie. Didnt know you were close
So what is ADS b in