The first 100 people to use code OLDBOATS at the link below will get 60% off of Incogni: incogni.com/oldboats Thank you so much for watching! What do you think happened to the Marquette and Bessemer No. 2?
I personally think that it reached the other side then turned around but sank. Great video as always, keep up the good work. :) At some point, please could you make a video on the MS Munchen. It was an LASH Ship that sank after several rogue waves hit it. One of my most favourite ship wrecks out there. It Is hardly known ands deservers more attention
It's insane ships were ever built with an open stern. How in any way shape or form could such a design possibly NOT be a disaster just waiting to happen?
There are ferries with open sterns to this day. There are even ones with open bows! However, they have retractable sea-gates. But there have been failures with these gates that have led to tragedies. In one such disaster, the wreck of the Estonian, the bow gates were either damaged and/or not manually checked/closed and the design of the hull splashed mega-gallons of water into the hold. The view of the gate was completely out of the view of the captain and not even any cc cameras to view it. Design changes were made after this tragic loss.
Look up the Washington State Ferries sometime. Those boats have open bows and sterns onto the main vehicle deck, although they travel a MUCH less violent stretch of water than the great lakes.
I remember a forensic case where, a sole survivor of a shipwreck, a man with mental disabilities was charged with murder because his shipmate's body was found with "stab" marks. Turns his body just bobbed against a sharp piece of metal for days after his death. They elicited a false confession, saying they fought over a lifejacket as they had literally zero other motive.
I want to thank you from the bottom of my heart for keeping our history alive. Your content is as important as it is entertaining. Keep up the good work.
@@BigOldBoats it’s my pleasure. I’m from NE Ohio and I’ve been interested in just about anything maritime related since I was a kid. The Great Lakes have an endless supply of stories, legends and lore. I love listening to them while I work at night, so I’m in your debt.
As for the knives: it’s possible that when the order to abandon ship came, the purser had the forethought to grab some knives in case their lifeboat went ashore in an unpopulated area and they had to survive in the woods for a few days. Some knives would be very useful in such a circumstance, especially for cutting up wood to make a fire and butchering small game for food.
@@ajkleipass I’d like to believe that but in other videos they go into detail about the captain and the crew being at odds violently so. Add that with the knives in the slash wounds…. My skepticism is always active I don’t believe Humpty Dumpty fell he was pushed.
It blows my mind that the brothers were found in such wildly different locations. One being found in the Niagara River, the other being found near Kincardine, which is on a totally different lake, Huron. Absolutely wild. Please more Great Lakes videos
The fact a body that originated on Lake Erie ends up on Lake Huron defies logic- the Detroit and St. Clair Rivers flow at about 2.3 miles an hour from North to South. The body would have to move against that current for many, many, many miles, fighting against even stronger current where Huron narrows into the St Clair River. Truly 'mysterious'.
It could have been dragged there by another boat or barge, strangely trapped by some hull feature or a tangle of loose lines from the wreck or even a stray fishing net. The body was "cut" up. Truth is often stranger than fiction.
@@odochartaighofodonegal2351 Captain Robert McLeod wasn't found near Kincardine, it was actually Long Point, Ontario. Kincardine was the birthplace of both Robert and John.
The William B. Davock, the ship that sailed through the debris field, would herself be lost with all hands in 1940, during the Armistice Day Storm on Lake Michigan.
I am just randomly watching some of Bradley's older videos (they're so good, I could watch them over and over). And I find your comment quite coincidental as he just released a video abt the Armistice Day storm last Saturday! Fascinating 😊 It's all sooo sad. I can't believe how the shipping companies didn't care about the men who kept their profits rolling in. They really cut every corner possible, putting lives at stake every day, just to make a couple extra bucks. Horrible.
I mean, my assumption is that there was more than one ship that was in trouble that night on the lake. The Marquette and Bessemer II went down, but other ships on the lake that night managed to make it through. It's also possible that none of the witnesses saw the Marquette and Bessemer II as well.
@@ScarletTermite The M&B No. 1 had left Conneaut that same morning at 6 a.m. prior to the M&B No. 2 leaving. She operated between that port and Rondeau and exclusively carried coal. M&B No. 1 looked nothing like her fleetmate; she was a "collier," which was a hybrid between a car ferry and bulk freighter. M&B No. 1 was unable to make port at Rondeau the night M&B No. 2 disappeared and took refuge at Port Stanley.
I grew up in a town along the Detroit River near the western end of Lake Erie. My father worked for a tugboat company so I was well acquainted with stories of storms and ship wrecks. In fact my dad had the book you referred to in the video. I wish I still had it because it was a great read.
What's crazy about these railroad ferries is that of the huge number on the Great Lakes for the better part of a century, only two sank in storms. The other lost in a storm was SS Milwaukee in 1929. Milwaukee had a stern gate, but it was damaged during the storm.
@@sd80mac From everything I'm read, the 18 didn't sink in a storm. It just started taking on water from down below. It's loss would be much less of a mystery had it sunk in actual storm conditions, I would think.
@@Madhouse_Media the 18 probably didn't sink as a result of the storm but more likely as a result of taking on water through broken deadlights that were above water during her summer excursion service, but which were below water when she was weighted down with train cars as she was when she sank. But it was definitely rough on the lake when she sank. Two sailors from the rescue ship (her sister, the Pere Marquette 17) were lost when the lifeboat they were using was crashed against the side of the ship due to the waves. Had it not been for the deadlights she may not have been lost, but the storm was probably a contributing factor.
Excellent video! I do have a couple small corrections. At 5:13, you have Robert and John McLeod's names mixed up. The man you have labeled as John is actually Captain Robert McLeod. John is the man with the mustache standing on the left behind Robert McLeod. Robert McLeod's body was discovered on the beach at Long Point, Ontario, not Kincardine. Kincardine was the birthplace of John and Robert. One recent theory about why the M&B No. 2 was spotted on both sides of the lake at the same time is that there was another car ferry that operated between Ashtabula, Ohio, and Port Burwell, Ontario. While both ferries aren't identical, they look very similar. And from a distance, in the snow and wind, they are indiscernible.
If it was not directly referenced in this video.....a great source of information and an excellent recounting of the M.&B #2's story and final voyage can be found in Dwight Boyer's "Ghost Ships Of The Great Lakes".
I remember reading about this wreck in Ghost Ships of the Great Lakes when I was a high schooler. Just part of Ohio’s toll for Lake Erie shipping, I guess. Marquette and Bessemer No. 2 is one of those wrecks that really sticks in the mind for me. I’ve heard some theories the ship was buried in the silt and mud of Lake Erie, this explaining why she’s never been found.
While the videos are done excellently with load of details and helpful visuals, the most amazing thing is the soothing voice. These videos are like scary bedtime stories. 😁
Wow - I kayak in those areas - (Port Stanley, Port Bruce and Rondeau). If the size of the ports are the same today as 1909, yeah, the entry into Port Stanley would be challenging for a 100+M vessel if the conditions were rough. Turning to Port Bruce for shelter doesn't make sense though - Port Bruce's entry to Rush Creek is _really_ tiny - there's no way a big ship could get in there (unless it was a lot larger in 1909 than it is now). They were maybe blown off that way. Sheltering in Rondeau Bay may have worked if they could get to it, but that's a 45 to 50 minute drive from the Port Stanley area, so by water on a rough sea.... yikes. I don't see any way they could have made that if they tried. Though on a sidenote, I was just paddling in Rondeau Bay on April 26th. I hope we find the No.2 some day; would be good to have some closure to this mystery.
My father was a sailor. When he left the navy we moved to Loraine Ohio. He bought an old boat, stripped it down to the hull and rebuilt it. We would go fishing on Lake Erie, where he was moored. I was always frightened to be out on the water, and look all around and not see land anywhere. It didn't help that he tried to teach me to swim by tying a rope around me and throwing me into the lake. I just remember trying to reach down with my feet and find something solid, but no matter how far down I went I couldn't find the bottom. We were in the middle of the water...then there was the island we found that was overrun with snakes. So many snakes... Good times, good times...🤣
The great lakes are beautiful and terrifying all at the same time. I stay in a cabin along lake Erie where I can see the conneaut harbor each year and the storms are truly something to behold.
Love your videos! The Great Lakes have been a huge part of my life for decades. As a teenager we lived just across the road from the Straits of Mackinac. Many nights we heard the foghorns and the low rumble of freighters passing on there way to Lake Michigan of Lake Huron.
Damn man, I can't believe you've done it! I suggested this one (along with other people I'm sure) but I also doubted that you could pull off a whole video on it. Boat Man is flesh-hulled enlightenment.
I'm not too far from Conneaut, In Ashtabula! Something that is sort of interesting, a very similar vessel (open stern) from my hometown, called 'Ashtabula' had run aground off of Port Burwell during the storm that sunk the M&B #2. She has her own interesting history herself and could possibly be a future video idea =]
So... a near identical replacement was built, with the same name and everything, but with an actual stern gate... and it served for 87 years? Gee, guess maybe they shouldn't have built this first one without it, or listened to the Captain when he said it wasn't safe as it was and just gone ahead and taken it in for service.
To be fair, very few of these were ever lost on lake storms, even with the open stern. Stern gates didn't always protect against seas boarding the stern. Just ask the SS Milwaukee, which went down in 1929. Her gate was torn loose either by crashing waves or loose rail cars.
The second #2 lived out its last decades as a barge. The first #2 was scheduled to receive a stern gate and radio equipment after the end of the season.
To say she served 87 years is a stretch. She made it about 30 in her original configuration before having most of her upperworks cut away for service as a barge.
Unfortunately, if not backed up with other facts, witness statements can be pretty unreliable. People's memories can be affected by a number of things that they believe they saw or heard from a number of factors or by mistaking something or combining past memories. It has happened a lot in accident investigations and investigations in general. In this case, you would have to go by what was believed to be the ship's position and go off of those till you can find the wreck and likely recreate where it sank.
An excellent video. I would like to point to two repeated historical errors. The officers of black later recanted there sighting of the No.2 as did A.B Brebner. Reports of hearing or seeing the ship are somewhat contradictory, however, one report in the Conneaut News Herald places them as being Thurs AM not Weds(though they are most often reported as weds). Often omitted is also the Captain's wife hearing the ships whistle outside Conneaut weds night. Very convoluted. A second repeated error is that the No 1 searched for the No 2 in a wide loop west and south. When Captain Murdock Rowan returned to Conneaut 8 days later...he reported sheltering behind long point, having abandoned his trip on Dec 7 and not searching for the No.2. This correction appears in the New Herald a couple weeks after the storm.
I don’t think the knives and slash wounds were a coincidence. I can completely see Smith confronting the captain saying “turn us around and get us out of the storm, or I’ll cut you to pieces”. The captain probably blew Smith off, thinking he was bluffing, but then found out he definitely was not. Thinking that, because he was the captain, his authority wouldn’t be questioned, but not counting on what people will do in desperation if they think they’re about to die.
I couldn't imagine being the captain of a ship like that facing a violent storm knowing the ship could go down but if you refuse to take it then you would probably be replaced and if new captain died in the storm you probably would never forget that
9:07 - "That morning the temperature was 42 degrees Fahrenheit but as the No. 2 sailed into the storm the temperature had plummeted to just _10 degrees above freezing"_ - (AKA 42 degrees Fahrenheit?)
@@BigOldBoats Ahhh... I was assuming you'd meant 10 _below_ freezing and while not _that_ big a difference, 22 feels positively balmy compared to 10 _(let alone the soaking/freezing sea spray, 75+ mph winds, and the abject horror of constantly looming /deafening/crashing mountains of water)_
@@Madhouse_Media Yes; plus, it was outdated and in serious disrepair. Bonus fact: its sistership SS Principessa Jolanda capsized on its launch date. Had to be scrapped on site. Also, SS PM was named after Mafalda of Savoy (1902-44), who met a tragic end during WW2.
I have lived most of my life within earshot of the C&O carferries in Ludington. Of the seven ferries I've heard, all of the likely louder than the M&B No. 2, I've never heard one farther away than our State Park, some eight miles distant. And then, only in very strange atmospheric conditions. A strong wind tends to make them harder to hear at a distance, not easier, even in odd situations. Given that she was supposedly sighted along the south shore and heard along the north shore, your theory would mean the sound crossed Lake Erie against the wind during the storm. That makes no sense. Port Stanley and Conneaut are some 60 miles distant.
I think a trick of the wind carried the sounds across the waters, thus causing both sides to recognize her. As for sighting, any similar ship will do if it was out on the water at the time.
I have lived most of my life within earshot of the C&O carferries in Ludington. Of the seven ferries I've heard, all of the likely louder than the M&B No. 2, I've never heard one farther away than our State Park, some eight miles distant. And then, only in very strange atmospheric conditions. A strong wind tends to make them harder to hear at a distance, not easier, even in odd situations. Given that she was supposedly sighted along the south shore and heard along the north shore, your theory would mean the sound crossed Lake Erie against the wind during the storm. That makes no sense. Port Stanley and Conneaut are some 60 miles distant.
@@derklavierspieler7491 I have 60 years of extensive research into the carferries, including the M&B No. 2. 60 years living around the carferries of three Great Lakes fleets, including several that were somewhat newer versions of the M&B No. 2. 60 years of hearing their extremely loud horns and knowing that even in the most extreme circumstances they're never heard more than about eight miles away. Ironically their horns are heard better over land than they are over water, in part due to a reduced wind disturbance. In extreme weather they often can't be heard more than a few blocks away even though they're designed to be heard through the entire town to alert families that "their ship has come in." The physics of a steam whistle (which is what the M&B No. 2 had) being less able to sound properly in high winds due to the wind sheet being distorted by the wind. 40 years as a pipe organ builder (organ pipes are smaller and gentler versions of the steam whistle) and knowing that even a slight variation in the wind sheet impacts their ability to sound, though admittedly a steam whistle, at a much higher pressure, has an obvious advantage in this realm. Storms and high winds usually make the whistles much more difficult to hear, and sometimes they can't be heard at all. There are many recorded instances of the whistles of Great Lakes ships being completely inaudible in a storm, even at close range. Mariners during the era when the M&B No. 2 sank would tell of being able to see the steam of a whistle being blown but no sound emanating. Fog, on the other hand, will often enhance a whistle, making it audible at much greater distances and even sound much closer than it is in reality. Fog will also make it difficult to discern the direction whence the whistle is emanating. But it wasn't foggy when the M&B No. 2 went down, it was extremely windy. That it was heard on shore at all is somewhat amazing. To hear it on both sides of the lake, 60ish miles apart, stretches credulity beyond the breaking point, to say the least. And you're also basing your theory on a ship's horn you never heard and are claiming it was so loud you could hear it 60 miles away in a storm. What experience do you have with them? Can you point to any reports of ship's whistles being heard at great distances, perhaps even the whistles of other boats that were out on Lake Erie that night? In 60 years of research I've never heard of such a thing, in fact I've heard many times of just the opposite. Where's the data to support your theory?
Man I just wanna say thank you for such great content! Your voice is so easy to listen to and feel the emotion when needed. great editing. Please keep it up!
Oh boy, oh boy, oh boy!! A new video from Big Old Boats! I haven't even watched it yet and I'm so happy! To date, I've watched all the previous ones and my life has been enhanced. I've learned so much and with the narrations providing so much of the very human experiences had by the travel on these ships and boats and their ultimate demise. I literally think about these accounts at least for a brief time, every day! Thank you!
Your narrator channel voice sounds so so much like Kuncan Dastner. I don't know how to describe his content other than "Kindness Commentary", so BOB's sign off brings the kindness to mind. I appreciate that about Brick Immortar, too...for so many YT communities there's a bit of a schism between the kind of folks whose channel growth + topics make them even more acutely aware of the need to be thoughtful, responsible, careful, sensitive Creators who consider the messaging in their channels/videos, & those who respond to growth by upping the sensationalism, & with subject matter dealing with last moments or torments + close calls & lingering traumas, it can be a real balancing act. I appreciate the storytelling here.
If I were to write a movie about this ship it would go like this. Some of the crew heard the passenger was carrying a large sum of cash. They killed the captain, overwhelmed the others and stole the money. They threw the others overboard and tried to steer the ship towards safety but were in over their heads. They piled into a lifeboat but froze to death while trying to reach land. The ship was left running and circled around until it sank.
Maybe not what happened, but yes it would make a good movie! A better reason they would get in the lifeboat is just to get away; since if they stayed on the ship they would have been found too easily, no matter where they tried to go with it. Or maybe some of them argued with each other and made the losers get in the lifeboat.
M&B no.2 makes the MS Estonia look downright watertight, it's insane she was allowed to even sail like that at all! That opening did NOT look very far up from the waterline at all... terrible design... was this built before the Coast Guard had to sign off on ships regarding their seaworthiness? And the company pretending nothing happened by making a new ship with the same exact name. What a disaster. Thanks for the well-researched video as always!
As a supernatural fan I kind of believe that the ship sank and all those witnesses saw the same thing as the “ghost” of the ship and her crew tried valiantly to get home. I know that’s not a realistic belief and it might annoy some, but I don’t mean it disrespectfully.
I suspect it is possible that the wind was carrying the sound more than it normally would due to high wind speeds. It is the only thing that would make sense. As for cuts on the Captain's body, if the ship broke up as it went down that could result in lots of sharp stuff to get caught on. A chef in those days would most probably have their own knife set that they depended on for any work, so he would have grabbed them as he left the galley. Also, not unlikely that if they got washed up somewhere remote, knives would come in useful for making shelter and getting food.
The meat cleaver was probably used to brake ice off the side of the ship, and you never know when you'll need to cut rope when abandoning ship so why not grab a knife? I think the cook slashing the Captain is ridiculous, you wouldn't slash with a knife, you would stab.
I had never heard this story before I am a charter Captain out of conneaut I do know where there are rail cars at on the bottom but I always heard they fell off a ship I never knew the ship went down with them
If ye find the cars, follow the trail - it may lead ye to the M&B#2... and the fabled treasure it holds. Males me wonder why the captain dinna run a few of the cars off the stern into the lake, to make the ship bow-heavy, and lift the stern out of the waves. Sacrifice a few railcars and coal for the rest, ship, and crew! Heck, maybe he tried it, and that is why the trail of rail cars is there...
@@WhiteWolf65 a couple other wrecks of carferries (Milwaukee of 1929, Pere Marquette 18 of 1910) involved pushing/losing rail cars off the stern, so it's quite possible it happened with this one also.
I love your videos so much and I watch them all multiple times. I’m just a little bit confused about the temperature information. It was 42° and then when it plummeted it was 10° above freezing, would that not be 42°? Sorry, I just wanted to make sure I understand because I love your videos.
It is said that if you stand on the bluffs above Port Stanley during a December gale you can hear the Whistle from No2 . I think it really is a ghost ship.
As one of the mentioned descendants of the Captain, thank you for covering this story! This video randomly popped up on my feed, and I couldn't have been more surprised.
The guy that claims the ship is on the beach and just covered in sand? If you look at his comments it reads like a sad tale of untreated mental illness.
You'd think that the currents and storm surges in the lake by now would have make a telltale spread of the anthracite coal in the railroad hopper cars aboard it, but it also makes sense getting swallowed by the lakebed sediment over the years. Funny it still hasn't been found in the shallowest great lake.
@@ScarletTermite its because the m&b sank on the canadian side and you need government permission to search over here, plus most searchers in canada are old and americans dont want the hassle of customs.
I'd look for traces of the coal cars with water samples paying attention to up and downstream currents. Then figure possiby the captain or crew figured and argued about cutting loose the coal cars cargo so the ship would be more manageable. That could make the ship distant after drifting a fair distance from figured seen and heard.
This is the first time I hear of this tragic incident, and I must say, it's a fascinating story that I think world make great movie material. Some mix of crime, fiction, suspense thriller maybe? I wonder if since then anyone has written a novel about this
It's not just big USA that have such lakes. Little Sweden's 2nd largest lake, Vättern, is only the 6th largest lake in Europe, it's long, finger-shaped, and known for occasionally being able to quickly change from still to full storm. Now in modern times they sometimes issues temporary bans for anyone going out on it, but 1918 the steamer S/S Per Brahe who trafficked both cargo, and passengers across Vättern sank in a storm, with all it's cargo, and 24 souls on board.
Lake Erie is relatively shallow, therefore it gets churned rather violently, and in rather short order. It's amazing how quickly it can go from being still to being quite dangerous.
Some folks claim they could hear her horn blasts outside the Conneaut harbor,as if she was attempting to return to Conneaut. I believe she had a number of new models, T's aboard as well.
i agree that it was in poor taste to name the replacement ship the same name. that is a smack to the face to the family members of those who died. the company should have been shamed and boycotted for that decision.
It happened also when the Pere Marquette 18 was lost in 1910; her replacement was also named Pere Marquette 18. The replacement for the Milwaukee in 1929 was named City of Milwaukee.
One error. Capt. Robert McLeod's body was discovered on Long Point not Kincardine, Ontario. Kincardine is where the 7 McLeod brothers were born. My grandfather, Hugh McLeod (upper right in the family picture), also a captain, identified the bodies of both brothers.
I don't think the crewman being found with a bunch of knives and the captains body having "slash wounds" points to something as insideous as it initially seems to. The term "slash wounds" is open to interpretation and personal opinion. This is the conjecture of someone 100+ years ago interviewed in brief, he doesn't say if deep lacerations or small knicks (or how many). ALOT can happen aboard a ship amidst it's last moments like this and often times the specific reasons for strange peculiarities and/or findings that seem to make no sense, are often something mundane and more innocent, we know that slash wounds could of meant all manner of cuts depending on who you ask and wasn't the captains body not found for a little while, so you got the floating in the lake and it's effects on a body and the possibility of post mortem injury. My theory is this. For some almost infinite reason(s) while in extreme peril and in attempt to jettison load/rig something up/free someone wrapped up in a line/free up lifeboats, crewman realized knives were needed and ran to the galley to get knives to distribute to shipmates so they could help with or work independently but died before he could pass them out/complete whatever task he fetched the cutting implements for, qt the same time or there abouts, skipper incurrs some manner of horrific bodily injury likely deep larecetions or fall/crush/impact injury in attempts to man the helm or help his crew or exit the vessel, this combined with whatever his remains went through between the sinking and discovery probably made "slash marks" an understatement or at least the rest of his description ommited for the sake of friends and loved ones. Couple this with the cutty mcslicington and his wares being found him and him being found alone and it's easy to make dark inferences and one could be forgiving for thinking so initially. However I'm sure they all knew without a spec of doubt that they were in fact for sure headed straight for Davey Jones locker but despite this and because of that inate human drive to survive (and as any man would) fought like hell and did everything they possibly could to maybe somefuckingway MAYYYBEEEE make it to safety, to see their wives and kids just once more and survivors of similar situations can tell you that that often looks like these guys working their absolute hardest to work together to help each other and make it out alive... Or maybe dude knifed up the skipper for getting him killed or making a bonehead move and making it worse. Or maybe they all throught slitting their throats was preferable to drowning??? It could a definitely been something malicious or driven by fear or blame but my vote and I'm pretty sure statistically most likely is it being something benign and the result of people dealing with Uber specific awful circumstances the best way they could at the time.
This shipwreck has always fascinated me because it's never been found. I believe it's in Canadian waters as Canadian diving restrictions prevent easy exploration for shipwrecks in Canadian waters.
How about the visibility was exceedingly low. Any noise/siren/whistle couldn't be accurately pinpointed and the human ability to see man-made shapes where they don't exist. A good example is a pair of curtains i used to own. I often said that with their large eyelets and folds, that they looked like herd of elephants.
I am the great great granddaughter of captain Robert McLeod. I’ve always hoped for this ship to be found within my lifetime. I wonder if anyone is even actively searching. So many mysteries around its disappearance still
The first 100 people to use code OLDBOATS at the link below will get 60% off of Incogni: incogni.com/oldboats
Thank you so much for watching! What do you think happened to the Marquette and Bessemer No. 2?
I personally think that it reached the other side then turned around but sank. Great video as always, keep up the good work. :)
At some point, please could you make a video on the MS Munchen. It was an LASH Ship that sank after several rogue waves hit it. One of my most favourite ship wrecks out there. It Is hardly known ands deservers more attention
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It is entirely possible this mystery has that one passenger with the $50,000 at the heart of it. Maybe there's a robbery involved
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It's insane ships were ever built with an open stern. How in any way shape or form could such a design possibly NOT be a disaster just waiting to happen?
There are ferries with open sterns to this day. There are even ones with open bows! However, they have retractable sea-gates. But there have been failures with these gates that have led to tragedies. In one such disaster, the wreck of the Estonian, the bow gates were either damaged and/or not manually checked/closed and the design of the hull splashed mega-gallons of water into the hold. The view of the gate was completely out of the view of the captain and not even any cc cameras to view it. Design changes were made after this tragic loss.
Look up the Washington State Ferries sometime. Those boats have open bows and sterns onto the main vehicle deck, although they travel a MUCH less violent stretch of water than the great lakes.
@Sigil Firebrand I was gonna say, all the Washington State Ferries are open bow/stern. Ive been caught on one in a storm before, it's pretty wild
@@mattkaustickomments and to this day they still sink occasionally.
It works fine on flat, calm waters. But on the great lakes it sounds insane.
I remember a forensic case where, a sole survivor of a shipwreck, a man with mental disabilities was charged with murder because his shipmate's body was found with "stab" marks. Turns his body just bobbed against a sharp piece of metal for days after his death. They elicited a false confession, saying they fought over a lifejacket as they had literally zero other motive.
I think I know this case! Saw it on the show Forensic Files.
alvin latham is the survivors name who was tricked into a confession.
@@teddyboukagain9985 so what happened? the cops who coerced a confession go to gaol?
@@mottthehoople693 Depends whether they were US or not. US cops are literally immune to prosecution.
@@eldrago19 not anymore......look at how many have lost their job and or been sent to gaol?
I want to thank you from the bottom of my heart for keeping our history alive. Your content is as important as it is entertaining. Keep up the good work.
Thank you so much! Glad to hear my work is appreciated.
@@BigOldBoats it’s my pleasure. I’m from NE Ohio and I’ve been interested in just about anything maritime related since I was a kid. The Great Lakes have an endless supply of stories, legends and lore. I love listening to them while I work at night, so I’m in your debt.
As for the knives: it’s possible that when the order to abandon ship came, the purser had the forethought to grab some knives in case their lifeboat went ashore in an unpopulated area and they had to survive in the woods for a few days. Some knives would be very useful in such a circumstance, especially for cutting up wood to make a fire and butchering small game for food.
The reality most likely is Smith grabbed his knifes at the time because they where his most valuable item onboard
Could also be he was in the kitchen. Panic, that might make one forget what was in his hands at the moment
Nope, they murdered the captain.
The knives might have been handy for chopping ice or otherwise freeing the lifeboat.
@@ajkleipass I’d like to believe that but in other videos they go into detail about the captain and the crew being at odds violently so. Add that with the knives in the slash wounds…. My skepticism is always active I don’t believe Humpty Dumpty fell he was pushed.
It blows my mind that the brothers were found in such wildly different locations. One being found in the Niagara River, the other being found near Kincardine, which is on a totally different lake, Huron. Absolutely wild. Please more Great Lakes videos
The fact a body that originated on Lake Erie ends up on Lake Huron defies logic- the Detroit and St. Clair Rivers flow at about 2.3 miles an hour from North to South. The body would have to move against that current for many, many, many miles, fighting against even stronger current where Huron narrows into the St Clair River. Truly 'mysterious'.
It could have been dragged there by another boat or barge, strangely trapped by some hull feature or a tangle of loose lines from the wreck or even a stray fishing net. The body was "cut" up. Truth is often stranger than fiction.
@@odochartaighofodonegal2351 Captain Robert McLeod wasn't found near Kincardine, it was actually Long Point, Ontario. Kincardine was the birthplace of both Robert and John.
Ah so, that is most interesting, & bizarre.
Bradley, thanks for sharing this story, but that is a bit of a haunting one. Now to try to sleep in peace…
The William B. Davock, the ship that sailed through the debris field, would herself be lost with all hands in 1940, during the Armistice Day Storm on Lake Michigan.
I am just randomly watching some of Bradley's older videos (they're so good, I could watch them over and over). And I find your comment quite coincidental as he just released a video abt the Armistice Day storm last Saturday! Fascinating 😊
It's all sooo sad. I can't believe how the shipping companies didn't care about the men who kept their profits rolling in. They really cut every corner possible, putting lives at stake every day, just to make a couple extra bucks. Horrible.
I mean, my assumption is that there was more than one ship that was in trouble that night on the lake. The Marquette and Bessemer II went down, but other ships on the lake that night managed to make it through. It's also possible that none of the witnesses saw the Marquette and Bessemer II as well.
Yes especially since there was a sister ship with the same name. My first question is where was the sister ship that night?
Tied up at the dock? Perhaps, I misheard but I thought the M&B#1 had come in while #2 was heading out?
@@ScarletTermite The M&B No. 1 had left Conneaut that same morning at 6 a.m. prior to the M&B No. 2 leaving. She operated between that port and Rondeau and exclusively carried coal. M&B No. 1 looked nothing like her fleetmate; she was a "collier," which was a hybrid between a car ferry and bulk freighter. M&B No. 1 was unable to make port at Rondeau the night M&B No. 2 disappeared and took refuge at Port Stanley.
I grew up in a town along the Detroit River near the western end of Lake Erie. My father worked for a tugboat company so I was well acquainted with stories of storms and ship wrecks. In fact my dad had the book you referred to in the video. I wish I still had it because it was a great read.
so what did you do with it?
@@mottthehoople693 my father got himself into deep debt via money lenders. He sold a lot of valuable stuff off, including his books.
I still have a copy around here I believe.
What's crazy about these railroad ferries is that of the huge number on the Great Lakes for the better part of a century, only two sank in storms. The other lost in a storm was SS Milwaukee in 1929. Milwaukee had a stern gate, but it was damaged during the storm.
Pere Marquette 18 also sank in a storm, so that's 3.
@@sd80mac From everything I'm read, the 18 didn't sink in a storm. It just started taking on water from down below. It's loss would be much less of a mystery had it sunk in actual storm conditions, I would think.
@@Madhouse_Media the 18 probably didn't sink as a result of the storm but more likely as a result of taking on water through broken deadlights that were above water during her summer excursion service, but which were below water when she was weighted down with train cars as she was when she sank. But it was definitely rough on the lake when she sank. Two sailors from the rescue ship (her sister, the Pere Marquette 17) were lost when the lifeboat they were using was crashed against the side of the ship due to the waves. Had it not been for the deadlights she may not have been lost, but the storm was probably a contributing factor.
Excellent video! I do have a couple small corrections. At 5:13, you have Robert and John McLeod's names mixed up. The man you have labeled as John is actually Captain Robert McLeod. John is the man with the mustache standing on the left behind Robert McLeod. Robert McLeod's body was discovered on the beach at Long Point, Ontario, not Kincardine. Kincardine was the birthplace of John and Robert. One recent theory about why the M&B No. 2 was spotted on both sides of the lake at the same time is that there was another car ferry that operated between Ashtabula, Ohio, and Port Burwell, Ontario. While both ferries aren't identical, they look very similar. And from a distance, in the snow and wind, they are indiscernible.
If it was not directly referenced in this video.....a great source of information and an excellent recounting of the M.&B #2's story and final voyage can be found in Dwight Boyer's "Ghost Ships Of The Great Lakes".
I have a cottage on Lake Erie near Long Point, the December storms really can be treacherous! Thanks for sharing this story
I remember reading about this wreck in Ghost Ships of the Great Lakes when I was a high schooler. Just part of Ohio’s toll for Lake Erie shipping, I guess. Marquette and Bessemer No. 2 is one of those wrecks that really sticks in the mind for me. I’ve heard some theories the ship was buried in the silt and mud of Lake Erie, this explaining why she’s never been found.
Hope someday we can get some of that penetrating radar around where she mighta been
While the videos are done excellently with load of details and helpful visuals, the most amazing thing is the soothing voice. These videos are like scary bedtime stories. 😁
Wow - I kayak in those areas - (Port Stanley, Port Bruce and Rondeau). If the size of the ports are the same today as 1909, yeah, the entry into Port Stanley would be challenging for a 100+M vessel if the conditions were rough. Turning to Port Bruce for shelter doesn't make sense though - Port Bruce's entry to Rush Creek is _really_ tiny - there's no way a big ship could get in there (unless it was a lot larger in 1909 than it is now). They were maybe blown off that way. Sheltering in Rondeau Bay may have worked if they could get to it, but that's a 45 to 50 minute drive from the Port Stanley area, so by water on a rough sea.... yikes. I don't see any way they could have made that if they tried. Though on a sidenote, I was just paddling in Rondeau Bay on April 26th. I hope we find the No.2 some day; would be good to have some closure to this mystery.
My father was a sailor. When he left the navy we moved to Loraine Ohio. He bought an old boat, stripped it down to the hull and rebuilt it. We would go fishing on Lake Erie, where he was moored. I was always frightened to be out on the water, and look all around and not see land anywhere. It didn't help that he tried to teach me to swim by tying a rope around me and throwing me into the lake. I just remember trying to reach down with my feet and find something solid, but no matter how far down I went I couldn't find the bottom. We were in the middle of the water...then there was the island we found that was overrun with snakes. So many snakes...
Good times, good times...🤣
The great lakes are beautiful and terrifying all at the same time. I stay in a cabin along lake Erie where I can see the conneaut harbor each year and the storms are truly something to behold.
Dude, I absolutely love your channel. You have no idea how much I look forward to them and rewatch them. Keep it up man!
That's awesome to hear, thank you!
Love your videos! The Great Lakes have been a huge part of my life for decades. As a teenager we lived just across the road from the Straits of Mackinac. Many nights we heard the foghorns and the low rumble of freighters passing on there way to Lake Michigan of Lake Huron.
"Ghost Ships of the Great Lakes" was one of the best garage sale book buys I ever made. I still enjoy re-reading it at the cottage every summer!
This really makes me want to write a horrific thriller about mad sailors on lake Erie during a horrifying storm
Well, if it had happened in Maine, Stephen King would be all over it.
All you need is jack nickleson smiling saying welcome aboard
@@staceyjohnson4521 Or Tim Curry. That guy is creepy, in clown suit or not!
@@MelanieCravens I've never read Steven King but based on the films I've seen he is overrated.
@@chendaforest The books are better! TV and movie adaptations are made by people who think they can improve on it when in reality they cannot.
Damn man, I can't believe you've done it! I suggested this one (along with other people I'm sure) but I also doubted that you could pull off a whole video on it. Boat Man is flesh-hulled enlightenment.
I'm not too far from Conneaut, In Ashtabula! Something that is sort of interesting, a very similar vessel (open stern) from my hometown, called 'Ashtabula' had run aground off of Port Burwell during the storm that sunk the M&B #2. She has her own interesting history herself and could possibly be a future video idea =]
So... a near identical replacement was built, with the same name and everything, but with an actual stern gate... and it served for 87 years? Gee, guess maybe they shouldn't have built this first one without it, or listened to the Captain when he said it wasn't safe as it was and just gone ahead and taken it in for service.
To be fair, very few of these were ever lost on lake storms, even with the open stern. Stern gates didn't always protect against seas boarding the stern. Just ask the SS Milwaukee, which went down in 1929. Her gate was torn loose either by crashing waves or loose rail cars.
The second #2 lived out its last decades as a barge. The first #2 was scheduled to receive a stern gate and radio equipment after the end of the season.
To say she served 87 years is a stretch. She made it about 30 in her original configuration before having most of her upperworks cut away for service as a barge.
Thanks! Appreciate the hard work! I have learned a lot about marine history from your videos😊
Thank you so much! Glad to hear it!
Unfortunately, if not backed up with other facts, witness statements can be pretty unreliable. People's memories can be affected by a number of things that they believe they saw or heard from a number of factors or by mistaking something or combining past memories. It has happened a lot in accident investigations and investigations in general. In this case, you would have to go by what was believed to be the ship's position and go off of those till you can find the wreck and likely recreate where it sank.
An excellent video. I would like to point to two repeated historical errors. The officers of black later recanted there sighting of the No.2 as did A.B Brebner. Reports of hearing or seeing the ship are somewhat contradictory, however, one report in the Conneaut News Herald places them as being Thurs AM not Weds(though they are most often reported as weds). Often omitted is also the Captain's wife hearing the ships whistle outside Conneaut weds night. Very convoluted.
A second repeated error is that the No 1 searched for the No 2 in a wide loop west and south. When Captain Murdock Rowan returned to Conneaut 8 days later...he reported sheltering behind long point, having abandoned his trip on Dec 7 and not searching for the No.2. This correction appears in the New Herald a couple weeks after the storm.
I don’t think the knives and slash wounds were a coincidence. I can completely see Smith confronting the captain saying “turn us around and get us out of the storm, or I’ll cut you to pieces”. The captain probably blew Smith off, thinking he was bluffing, but then found out he definitely was not. Thinking that, because he was the captain, his authority wouldn’t be questioned, but not counting on what people will do in desperation if they think they’re about to die.
Can we also take a second to appreciate the Mamiya on the back shelf during the ad? Sick camera.
Never gets old, but love to the 35mm's too yo. ❤📸
I've been fascinated by this ship for 50 years. Thanks for a great job.
Ah cool! I made a video on this and I think the wreck site has been located but no one want to go down and confirm it’s the m&b 2. Nice retelling!
“We’ve got a following sea and it’s starting to blow up - secure the cargo doors!” “Ah, yeah, Skipper - about that …..”
I couldn't imagine being the captain of a ship like that facing a violent storm knowing the ship could go down but if you refuse to take it then you would probably be replaced and if new captain died in the storm you probably would never forget that
I only need one word to describe this channel.FANTASTIC!!!
9:07 - "That morning the temperature was 42 degrees Fahrenheit but as the No. 2 sailed into the storm the temperature had plummeted to just _10 degrees above freezing"_ - (AKA 42 degrees Fahrenheit?)
Above zero 🙃
Yeah....I caught that one as well.
Lol only thing I caught
@@BigOldBoats Ahhh... I was assuming you'd meant 10 _below_ freezing and while not _that_ big a difference, 22 feels positively balmy compared to 10 _(let alone the soaking/freezing sea spray, 75+ mph winds, and the abject horror of constantly looming /deafening/crashing mountains of water)_
Love your vids, especially the one on SS Valencia. Have you considered covering the sinking of SS Principessa Mafalda (25 October 1927)?
Was that the liner that sank after a propeller shaft broke loose? I suppose I could Google but I'm feeling lazy at the moment 😂
@@Madhouse_Media Yes; plus, it was outdated and in serious disrepair. Bonus fact: its sistership SS Principessa Jolanda capsized on its launch date. Had to be scrapped on site. Also, SS PM was named after Mafalda of Savoy (1902-44), who met a tragic end during WW2.
Your video production is absolutely incredible! The footage, information, and quality is great! Keep up the great work!
I didn't get this in my feed yesterday, and I have subscribed.
Thanks 👍
I like to think the storm carried the sound of the whistle across the lake to the southern shore. Stranger things have happened
I have lived most of my life within earshot of the C&O carferries in Ludington. Of the seven ferries I've heard, all of the likely louder than the M&B No. 2, I've never heard one farther away than our State Park, some eight miles distant. And then, only in very strange atmospheric conditions. A strong wind tends to make them harder to hear at a distance, not easier, even in odd situations. Given that she was supposedly sighted along the south shore and heard along the north shore, your theory would mean the sound crossed Lake Erie against the wind during the storm. That makes no sense. Port Stanley and Conneaut are some 60 miles distant.
I think a trick of the wind carried the sounds across the waters, thus causing both sides to recognize her. As for sighting, any similar ship will do if it was out on the water at the time.
I have lived most of my life within earshot of the C&O carferries in Ludington. Of the seven ferries I've heard, all of the likely louder than the M&B No. 2, I've never heard one farther away than our State Park, some eight miles distant. And then, only in very strange atmospheric conditions. A strong wind tends to make them harder to hear at a distance, not easier, even in odd situations. Given that she was supposedly sighted along the south shore and heard along the north shore, your theory would mean the sound crossed Lake Erie against the wind during the storm. That makes no sense. Port Stanley and Conneaut are some 60 miles distant.
@@derklavierspieler7491 I have 60 years of extensive research into the carferries, including the M&B No. 2. 60 years living around the carferries of three Great Lakes fleets, including several that were somewhat newer versions of the M&B No. 2. 60 years of hearing their extremely loud horns and knowing that even in the most extreme circumstances they're never heard more than about eight miles away. Ironically their horns are heard better over land than they are over water, in part due to a reduced wind disturbance. In extreme weather they often can't be heard more than a few blocks away even though they're designed to be heard through the entire town to alert families that "their ship has come in."
The physics of a steam whistle (which is what the M&B No. 2 had) being less able to sound properly in high winds due to the wind sheet being distorted by the wind. 40 years as a pipe organ builder (organ pipes are smaller and gentler versions of the steam whistle) and knowing that even a slight variation in the wind sheet impacts their ability to sound, though admittedly a steam whistle, at a much higher pressure, has an obvious advantage in this realm.
Storms and high winds usually make the whistles much more difficult to hear, and sometimes they can't be heard at all. There are many recorded instances of the whistles of Great Lakes ships being completely inaudible in a storm, even at close range. Mariners during the era when the M&B No. 2 sank would tell of being able to see the steam of a whistle being blown but no sound emanating.
Fog, on the other hand, will often enhance a whistle, making it audible at much greater distances and even sound much closer than it is in reality. Fog will also make it difficult to discern the direction whence the whistle is emanating. But it wasn't foggy when the M&B No. 2 went down, it was extremely windy. That it was heard on shore at all is somewhat amazing. To hear it on both sides of the lake, 60ish miles apart, stretches credulity beyond the breaking point, to say the least.
And you're also basing your theory on a ship's horn you never heard and are claiming it was so loud you could hear it 60 miles away in a storm. What experience do you have with them? Can you point to any reports of ship's whistles being heard at great distances, perhaps even the whistles of other boats that were out on Lake Erie that night? In 60 years of research I've never heard of such a thing, in fact I've heard many times of just the opposite. Where's the data to support your theory?
So that’s what you look like.
Thank you for making these videos for all of us
Man I just wanna say thank you for such great content! Your voice is so easy to listen to and feel the emotion when needed. great editing. Please keep it up!
Oh boy, oh boy, oh boy!! A new video from Big Old Boats! I haven't even watched it yet and I'm so happy! To date, I've watched all the previous ones and my life has been enhanced. I've learned so much and with the narrations providing so much of the very human experiences had by the travel on these ships and boats and their ultimate demise. I literally think about these accounts at least for a brief time, every day! Thank you!
Great story, thanks for sharing it.
Thank you!
Your narrator channel voice sounds so so much like Kuncan Dastner. I don't know how to describe his content other than "Kindness Commentary", so BOB's sign off brings the kindness to mind. I appreciate that about Brick Immortar, too...for so many YT communities there's a bit of a schism between the kind of folks whose channel growth + topics make them even more acutely aware of the need to be thoughtful, responsible, careful, sensitive Creators who consider the messaging in their channels/videos, & those who respond to growth by upping the sensationalism, & with subject matter dealing with last moments or torments + close calls & lingering traumas, it can be a real balancing act. I appreciate the storytelling here.
Perfect storytelling! As always ❤
If I were to write a movie about this ship it would go like this. Some of the crew heard the passenger was carrying a large sum of cash. They killed the captain, overwhelmed the others and stole the money. They threw the others overboard and tried to steer the ship towards safety but were in over their heads. They piled into a lifeboat but froze to death while trying to reach land. The ship was left running and circled around until it sank.
Maybe not what happened, but yes it would make a good movie! A better reason they would get in the lifeboat is just to get away; since if they stayed on the ship they would have been found too easily, no matter where they tried to go with it. Or maybe some of them argued with each other and made the losers get in the lifeboat.
Who would have thought that a huge hole in a boat would be dangerous
Erie, PA is my hometown and Conneaut is only twenty minutes west, but I've never heard this story before.
Amazing video, Bradley, just like al of your other videos. Thanks for sharing the history!
For some reason because they are lakes people underestimate the Great Lakes. They keep forgetting they are Great in both good and bad ways
M&B no.2 makes the MS Estonia look downright watertight, it's insane she was allowed to even sail like that at all! That opening did NOT look very far up from the waterline at all... terrible design... was this built before the Coast Guard had to sign off on ships regarding their seaworthiness? And the company pretending nothing happened by making a new ship with the same exact name. What a disaster. Thanks for the well-researched video as always!
As a supernatural fan I kind of believe that the ship sank and all those witnesses saw the same thing as the “ghost” of the ship and her crew tried valiantly to get home.
I know that’s not a realistic belief and it might annoy some, but I don’t mean it disrespectfully.
You may well be right, there's often a lot of synchronity around tragic events
Thanks for your hard work to produce these great vids.❤😉👍🏻
I really enjoy all these documentaries you share 😊thanks 😊
I love your videos, every single one of them. Absolutely fascinating. Thank you 🙏
I suspect it is possible that the wind was carrying the sound more than it normally would due to high wind speeds. It is the only thing that would make sense.
As for cuts on the Captain's body, if the ship broke up as it went down that could result in lots of sharp stuff to get caught on. A chef in those days would most probably have their own knife set that they depended on for any work, so he would have grabbed them as he left the galley. Also, not unlikely that if they got washed up somewhere remote, knives would come in useful for making shelter and getting food.
GREAT VIDEO!
Good video. Any plans on continuing this theme? Perhaps with a video or two on SS Pere Marquette 18 or SS Milwaukee?
Great video! Amazing it has never been found.
The meat cleaver was probably used to brake ice off the side of the ship, and you never know when you'll need to cut rope when abandoning ship so why not grab a knife? I think the cook slashing the Captain is ridiculous, you wouldn't slash with a knife, you would stab.
I had never heard this story before I am a charter Captain out of conneaut I do know where there are rail cars at on the bottom but I always heard they fell off a ship I never knew the ship went down with them
If ye find the cars, follow the trail - it may lead ye to the M&B#2... and the fabled treasure it holds.
Males me wonder why the captain dinna run a few of the cars off the stern into the lake, to make the ship bow-heavy, and lift the stern out of the waves. Sacrifice a few railcars and coal for the rest, ship, and crew!
Heck, maybe he tried it, and that is why the trail of rail cars is there...
@@WhiteWolf65 a couple other wrecks of carferries (Milwaukee of 1929, Pere Marquette 18 of 1910) involved pushing/losing rail cars off the stern, so it's quite possible it happened with this one also.
I love your videos so much and I watch them all multiple times. I’m just a little bit confused about the temperature information. It was 42° and then when it plummeted it was 10° above freezing, would that not be 42°? Sorry, I just wanted to make sure I understand because I love your videos.
10 degrees above zero* I just said the wrong word while recording 🙃
Especially excellent episode! I should know, I've watched it about 12 times.😃
5 minute club. video looks great so fair keep it up
Im in the under 20min club.
Much love all B.O.B fans
It is said that if you stand on the bluffs above Port Stanley during a December gale you can hear the Whistle from No2 . I think it really is a ghost ship.
As one of the mentioned descendants of the Captain, thank you for covering this story! This video randomly popped up on my feed, and I couldn't have been more surprised.
May I inquire to the ship crew your related to?
@@chrisonyschuk3956 Robert and John McLeod.
Hey mate could you do a video about the top ten worst maritime disasters on the great lakes by death?
Saw a recommended video of a guy who supposedly found MnB #2 a week before this video.
The guy that claims the ship is on the beach and just covered in sand? If you look at his comments it reads like a sad tale of untreated mental illness.
@@yankeeclipper4326 I didn't read the comments but yea that's the video
Don't get me wrong, but I find your videos inspiring! 😊
You'd think that the currents and storm surges in the lake by now would have make a telltale spread of the anthracite coal in the railroad hopper cars aboard it, but it also makes sense getting swallowed by the lakebed sediment over the years. Funny it still hasn't been found in the shallowest great lake.
I agree with you. I personally think that the area around Long Point should be treated to some sidescan sonar.
@@ScarletTermite its because the m&b sank on the canadian side and you need government permission to search over here, plus most searchers in canada are old and americans dont want the hassle of customs.
Rogue waves to occur on the Great Lakes as well as in the oceans. Might have been what finally took the ship down.
I grew up just north of port stanley. The concrete pillars for the loading ramps are still there. Used as a boat ramp now.
December 7ths in the 20th century were no joke.
That background audio is supremely eerie.
You have a great Narrator’s Voice..!! ✌🏼🌞
I'd look for traces of the coal cars with water samples paying attention to up and downstream currents. Then figure possiby the captain or crew figured and argued about cutting loose the coal cars cargo so the ship would be more manageable. That could make the ship distant after drifting a fair distance from figured seen and heard.
This is the first time I hear of this tragic incident, and I must say, it's a fascinating story that I think world make great movie material. Some mix of crime, fiction, suspense thriller maybe? I wonder if since then anyone has written a novel about this
I can't imagine a lake so massive it gets seriously rough. I'm British, America really is huge
It's not just big USA that have such lakes. Little Sweden's 2nd largest lake, Vättern, is only the 6th largest lake in Europe, it's long, finger-shaped, and known for occasionally being able to quickly change from still to full storm. Now in modern times they sometimes issues temporary bans for anyone going out on it, but 1918 the steamer S/S Per Brahe who trafficked both cargo, and passengers across Vättern sank in a storm, with all it's cargo, and 24 souls on board.
Yeah, and Erie is the shallowest of the 5!
@@FinnishLapphund yes I've been to vanern it's like a sea. I'd love to see the Caspian Sea one day, the world's largest lake.
Lake Erie is relatively shallow, therefore it gets churned rather violently, and in rather short order. It's amazing how quickly it can go from being still to being quite dangerous.
Had to have stainless steel balls ,to sail in the winter time with no radio back then!! R.I.P. sailors!!!
Imagine Open Sea Voyages like Captain Cook ect!?? Or Captain Bligh's Voyage in Open Boat back to Britain 🤨
Big old boats? This man knows what the people want!!
Some folks claim they could hear her horn blasts outside the Conneaut harbor,as if she was attempting to return to Conneaut. I believe she had a number of new models, T's aboard as well.
i agree that it was in poor taste to name the replacement ship the same name. that is a smack to the face to the family members of those who died. the company should have been shamed and boycotted for that decision.
It happened also when the Pere Marquette 18 was lost in 1910; her replacement was also named Pere Marquette 18. The replacement for the Milwaukee in 1929 was named City of Milwaukee.
One error. Capt. Robert McLeod's body was discovered on Long Point not Kincardine, Ontario. Kincardine is where the 7 McLeod brothers were born. My grandfather, Hugh McLeod (upper right in the family picture), also a captain, identified the bodies of both brothers.
I don't think the crewman being found with a bunch of knives and the captains body having "slash wounds" points to something as insideous as it initially seems to. The term "slash wounds" is open to interpretation and personal opinion.
This is the conjecture of someone 100+ years ago interviewed in brief, he doesn't say if deep lacerations or small knicks (or how many).
ALOT can happen aboard a ship amidst it's last moments like this and often times the specific reasons for strange peculiarities and/or findings that seem to make no sense, are often something mundane and more innocent, we know that slash wounds could of meant all manner of cuts depending on who you ask and wasn't the captains body not found for a little while, so you got the floating in the lake and it's effects on a body and the possibility of post mortem injury.
My theory is this.
For some almost infinite reason(s) while in extreme peril and in attempt to jettison load/rig something up/free someone wrapped up in a line/free up lifeboats, crewman realized knives were needed and ran to the galley to get knives to distribute to shipmates so they could help with or work independently but died before he could pass them out/complete whatever task he fetched the cutting implements for, qt the same time or there abouts, skipper incurrs some manner of horrific bodily injury likely deep larecetions or fall/crush/impact injury in attempts to man the helm or help his crew or exit the vessel, this combined with whatever his remains went through between the sinking and discovery probably made "slash marks" an understatement or at least the rest of his description ommited for the sake of friends and loved ones. Couple this with the cutty mcslicington and his wares being found him and him being found alone and it's easy to make dark inferences and one could be forgiving for thinking so initially.
However I'm sure they all knew without a spec of doubt that they were in fact for sure headed straight for Davey Jones locker but despite this and because of that inate human drive to survive (and as any man would) fought like hell and did everything they possibly could to maybe somefuckingway MAYYYBEEEE make it to safety, to see their wives and kids just once more and survivors of similar situations can tell you that that often looks like these guys working their absolute hardest to work together to help each other and make it out alive...
Or maybe dude knifed up the skipper for getting him killed or making a bonehead move and making it worse.
Or maybe they all throught slitting their throats was preferable to drowning???
It could a definitely been something malicious or driven by fear or blame but my vote and I'm pretty sure statistically most likely is it being something benign and the result of people dealing with Uber specific awful circumstances the best way they could at the time.
Being the most shallow, Lake Erie is the most dangerous great Lake. As a Clevelander I can attest as to how fast it can kick up too.
Do a video on the SS Independence in the future
very well done video! thanks
This shipwreck has always fascinated me because it's never been found. I believe it's in Canadian waters as Canadian diving restrictions prevent easy exploration for shipwrecks in Canadian waters.
Well,it was a little choppy when we went fishing there. Early nineties,and when I was there , I could feel them.
How about the visibility was exceedingly low. Any noise/siren/whistle couldn't be accurately pinpointed and the human ability to see man-made shapes where they don't exist. A good example is a pair of curtains i used to own. I often said that with their large eyelets and folds, that they looked like herd of elephants.
I'm shocked that the designers did not add a clam shell or some sort of a closing stern
I am the great great granddaughter of captain Robert McLeod. I’ve always hoped for this ship to be found within my lifetime. I wonder if anyone is even actively searching. So many mysteries around its disappearance still
Good and thorough information. My only question... the heck is with that name?
It’s crazy to think that the ship is still lost and nobody found her
Do you think you could make a video on the Edmund Fitzgerald?
14:44 sadly that ship would suffer a similar fate in 1940
I think they might have sank in a storm maybe?
The captain had slash wounds
Their should be an expedition, to Find the Marquette and Bessemer No.2.
There have been many.