Academia is a cult | Karen Kelsky | TEDxUAMonticello
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 24 มี.ค. 2021
- Every year in the United States, universities produce more and more Ph.D. graduates in an ever-shrinking academic job market. Many are saddled with hundreds of thousands in debt and left to teach part time at such low rates that many qualify for food stamps. Why does this happen and why do bright students continue to fall for it? Dr. Karen Kelsky, renowned academic expert and owner of The Professor Is In, answers these questions in this engaging and enlightening talk. Filmed 3/3/21 in Eugene, OR. Karen Kelsky is the Founder and CEO of The Professor Is In, which provides advice and consulting services on the academic job search and all elements of the academic and post-academic career. She speaks nationally and internationally on topics related to Ph.D. professionalization, and is a weekly columnist at Chronicle Vitae. As the creator of the Sexual Harassment in the Academy Survey and the #MeTooPhD hashtag, Karen speaks nationally on issues of sexual assault in the academy, with a focus on empowering victims and training people in leadership. She is a former tenured professor and department head at the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign and University of Oregon. Her latest book is The Professor Is In: The Essential Guide to Turning Your Ph.D. Into a Job (Random House 2015). This talk was given at a TEDx event using the TED conference format but independently organized by a local community. Learn more at www.ted.com/tedx
"Science is a wonderful thing , if one does not have to earn ones living at it " - Albert Einstien
Demographics are changing, fewer undergraduate students means fewer full-time teaching slots.
Academia is very toxic. The constant competition and the need to look intelligent warps people so that they can't have normal relationships anymore. Everyone I know in that world engages in moralizing/lecturing people around them as if we are all their students and this is just in everyday conversation.
In some cases, universities don't even teach well. I'd rather be genuinely intelligent instead of "appearing intelligent" and higher ed oftentimes teaches the latter exclusively.
Being around other PhD students is like being around a sea of moralisers as you say. I knew one fellow PhD student who felt that it was their business to 'educate' people on Facebook and tell people right from wrong - how arrogant!
Yup, pretty obvious that there's no correlation between IQ and self awareness, perspective, the qualities that prevent hypocrisy and self absorption. A lotta of actors who don't question their supposed to's. The supposed to people are very proud of their virtues based on how they always what they are supposed to, just never ask who decides what the supposed to's are.
Midwits
@@m.k.h.2718midwits
Have a master's. Left law school after one semester and now own a successful small business. Smartest decision I ever made
I was scolded by a dean because I pointed out the financial repercussions of certain majors. Universities are irresponsible with the lives of their students and families, who make incredible sacrifices. So sad!
Attitude is wrong.. I have threatened Dean.. :)
It's school not daycare
They do it to women and minorities the most too after claiming to be there to help them.
@@rwdchannel2901 like I said. Attitude is wrong. I threatened the Dean and that helps
@@nv3796 agreed. Some essentially are overgrown bullies and counter bullying works.
If I knew of the trauma and the debt I would encountered, I would have never done a PhD. It was not worth it.
it's important that you share this, thank you
especially when you get this idea that once a PhD holder you will teach in academia. LIES! I have never been as depressed in my life. And if you start a PhD in your 40s and in one of the social sciences, well. I can't write what I am thinking.
YUP. Currently writing my doctoral thesis and I'm dying.
life during phd is far far far easier than after phd for getting publications required for tenured + teaching uncertainties etc
@@IlianaGuadalupe Hey, I was thinking about doing exactly that. If you’re willing, can you tell me the disadvantages of starting a social science PhD in your 40’s? You can DM me.
Not just that, the academic achievement cult starts from as young as when we start school. We rate our children on academic achievement, getting into a prestigious university is the pinacle of success for kids. Even here we believe that people advanced degrees will solve the world's problems. How do you tell a kid who's entire life's worth is being smart and good at academics to leave this cult? Even now my parents solution to me being unsatisfied with my job is to go and pursue a PhD, because it is automatically seen as productive for my future career.
This should be a mandatory video for anyone entering a PhD program. Adjuncts, please stop teaching! As long as there is cheap labor, administrators will exploit our talent and give us in return nothing. Do you love teaching? Start an TH-cam channel, organize free webinars...
It's called capitalism! It isn't the fault of adjunct profs who are just struggling to get by that universities are exploitative. This is like blaming precarious labour for unliveable wages in sectors with high levels of immigrant employment. Blame the bosses, not each other!
When i tell adjuncts to stop adjuncting I get lambasted as an "elitist."
@@karenkelsky2358 Thank you Karen for delivering this message sound and clear! I am not surprised at all that you get attacked for what you say. I share a similar experience, though I don't have a large platform and so the attacks I receive are localized. For those adjuncting, the shield of ''I am not doing it for the money/this is a way of life" is self-delusional. If you want to teach as a way of life, there is no reason why you should do it in a university setting that is making a profit out of you. For the administrators, perpetuating the lie is a way of getting their cash flow going. Why on earth, a PhD student is good to teach to undergrads and, after she/he is done with her PhD, is no longer good enough for landing a job? I am tired of the phrase "the market is very competitive." Let's add that it is random, unfair, and that the chances of getting a real job (adjuncting is not a real job) close to those of winning the lottery.
I keep coming back to this because after finishing my PhD at the height of covid in 2020 I left and never looked back. Thank you. This is my mantra.
Quitting PhD project, one of the most liberating things was finding out that there ARE places with a healthy work-life balance, with supportive co-workers, with a healthy mindset. It also helped to distinguish between relationships worth keeping and toxic ones.
Please let us know some of them or at least one which you found. We are really lost after focusing so much so that we forget the world😢. It will help many hopefully. We can make this a listing thread of healthy options. Please.
This happened to me exactly. I went to the best universities in the world: oxford, Columbia. I had undergrad professors say I was so good and should become an academic. I went on the academic market 4 times. I was a lecturer (Columbia & Stetson), adjunct (Stetson), visiting assistant professor (Stetson), and a tenure track researcher/advisor (University of California Division of Ag & Natural Resources). I finally secured a tenure track job at UCAL because of Dr. Karen Kelskey´s help (the speaker in this video). I left for a contingent faculty position at Columbia. Big mistake. I transitioned to director of research positions in the tech sector but was laid off due to the pandemic. I am now trying to re-invent myself by starting a few businesses. It´s weird and I feel lost. Some of my former employers are still trying to sell the lie to me by asking me to teach again. They say it´s a great life because they only teach 1-2 classes per semester and make $150K+. But those types of jobs were never available to me and still aren´t. Of course, it´s great for them!
Oxford and Columbia ? I thought you said you went to the best universities? 😏
@@noomade im pretty sure this level of pretention is exactly what the video is referring to.
@@corvidconsumer are you referring to me or the OP?
@@noomade You. Just let people be proud of what they've accomplished. It provides nothing to anyone to constantly be putting others down.
I just dropped out of a Masters program in humanities. This video made me feel much better. I noticed in the program that people seemed to take pride in the future low wages. The teacher even made jokes about the low pay. What a scam!
The only way out of that debt would have been on that government student loan repayment plan where you work in the public sector for 10 years. Then once it's cancelled you still have to declare the amount canceled as income and petition the IRS to forgive the taxes if you don't want to pay them.
Masters is not academia. You shouldn't have dropped out (considering that masters takes a year or two) MSc/MBAs can help you in industry.
So the victims are falling for a rationalization that junior high school kids would see through? The power of indoctrination and sunk costs, eh?
"Living in a place you love" Yes! We're told we should do national searches and take any TT job in any state, even if it is completely isolated from family and friends, or in a place that offers few political protections or community options for LGBTQ+, BIPOC, and other underrepresented applicants. It is ok to prioritize happiness over academia.
I was told to take anything, literally. In my field, you see 'ads' that ask adjuncts to relocate for a semester of teaching
What you are saying is correct. But for me what is worse, I cannot even find an isolated job as a POC and a cultural anthropologist. I've known of at least a handful of positions where the department already knew who they wanted. So on top of everything else, we also have to deal with preferences and fooling the system just not to get sued.
Absolutely, the mobility issue makes things so difficult for people with families, caring commitments, health vulnerabilities and other geographical anchors. As an academic you are expected just to go wherever the jobs are.
In Poland there is an expectation of moving abroad as that is a significant separately counted criteria in funding applications. Some funding requires the candidate spent 1-2 years abroad to qualify. In country mobility is not counted for anything. Aside from the emotional stuff, it's also an expense to move and that is often not covered by the funding here. I got offered a steady adjunct possition but at an institution I hate, for a salary that would be easily matched by a minimum wage had I lived in my own appartment back home and not having to pay rent.
This is the biggest mistake i made. I took the job i was offered in a place that i never wanted to be. Eventually i had a mental health crisis and left.
I got my PhD last year and now am doing a part time job. Sigh! Trying to change my career. Very well said, Ms.
You mean dr.
Late comment, but I recall being in a prorfessor's office hours and him joking about being in poverty for almost a decade in California while obtaining his PhD. He laughed about it, but I can't stand how academics normalize that behavior/mindset
I was in a PhD program for a long time. Not worth it at all. But if there's one thing I learned, it's that I have no respect for people with PhDs anymore. Those who actually "succeed" and graduate are just really good at having no other interests besides being completely focused on a single, non-important problem that nobody else in the world cares about. You become an expert in something irrelevant and pointless. It's not about skills or being smart, it's about enduring 5-10 years of learning about the same thing.
Lol.. That is why your research choice should be selected carefully. Only research a dilemma that businesses are trying to find answers to, so that when you graduate, companies can see that you bring something to the table. A lot of PhDs just come up with explanations of concepts (in business studies).. Lol..
Would you mind sharing what field you had this experience in?
@@mylifeisinhishandsamen4167 Thanks Captain obvious. All along people just had to specialize in something useful 🤣 great advice lol
Well, if you think on economic perspective, many major research in university is not important at all.
@@mylifeisinhishandsamen4167if you choose your research topic based on career options just dont do a phd. Lol.
I’m so thankful that my undergrad organic chemistry professor told me this and so I switched majors. Then in my first year of my Master’s a couple professors told me this too. Which is why I left the program.
I love my job but I doubt my body will persist if I keep going at this rhythm at two universities and freelancing
@Luisa DC - Come on! Of course you can do it. The body only gets destroyed by excessive waste of time in parties and alcohol. Uni time is the best of your life. Just remember that you are there not to learn how to work but rather to learn how to think. That is the key. Time flies and afterwards you'll have a very long life to do exactly what you want to do.
@@jmerlo4119 She's talking about adjuncting. The topic of my talk. The thing that destroys PhDs. Read the room.
@@jmerlo4119 I hope this is ironic
@@zhangyin9160 - Nope. Pure facts.
Something in this room stinks. I think it's the smell of an administrator.
I hope this TED talk doesn't end up being just a talk that's eye-opening and intriguing but it also catches the attention of government and higher authorities to start investing in higher ed, to start paying faculty a reasonable salary. Talking is the first step, but this should not be the only thing we do. Let's start a movement!
I Agree !
I don’t think there is anything the government can do. Companies just don’t care about your phd. There is no demand.
The government has a vested interest in maintaining the status quo and watching the system cannabilize itself
@@Rolando_Cueva they could regulate but they choose not to
Why would the government have to step in? If the skill and labour of faculty is worth more they would have been paid more. That is how the market works. They could move to a different company/university who would pay them better if they were worth more. So funding people who are just not as valuable to others with government money means you now force the entire population to work for those things you value.
Thank you for this! I am hitting that phase right now where I am beginning to reject the cult, and this video helped to affirm my stance. Thank you for what you do, Karen!
"You don't need institutional validation"-Karen Kelsky, EXACTLY!. I attempt to teach to the best of my abilities on my TH-cam channels without any wanting of monetary gain, and I don't posses a college degree. I posses several trade school diplomas, but rarely if ever bring them up in conversation. I love to teach and pass on what I know and it gives me great joy in my life. I have personally known since my youth that college and the whole construct of academia is elitist/exclusionary/esoteric. For years I lived in shame without finishing my college degree. I live in joy now because of LETTING GO of the human fake/fraud/phony construct that does not, and never will deserve MY VALIDATION.
ALL and I mean ALL of my community college instructors were far better than any of my university professors. I hate it. I have a couple of TH-cam professors and that is the only reason I am understanding the material. I should pay them the $1200/course that I pay this scam of an institution called state university.
BASED
I don't try to encourage people to continue studying in my own field. If I come across a student who is really clever, I try to give them a picture of what their life might be like if they go on to do postgrad study in my field (humanities related) as encouragement to think about doing a different subject that will allow them to live without struggling. I was lucky to land a job at 39, which has given me relative comfort, but I don't see the same range of options for young people.
Thank you! I assume you're a faculty. I wish more faculty were advising students, against their own interest, to not do a PhD unless they can live off family wealth
I spoke against doing an honours, but was deterred by the professors, in spite of my gpa being only high enough for a 3rd class hons. A waste of 2 years. Ending in a mental breakdown, and abuse by professors. Then, to another uni, and being rejected for honest work. Academia cares little for us all.
I am so jealous of those who escaped academia. I hope I'll be able to do the same pretty soon.
You should escape too, i'm escaping this month and now my environment is so healthy without those gaslighting advisor
Go become a security guard and rent a room if you have to. You could work graveyard and not have to hardly talk to anyone and just play video games on your phone.
I will be escaping the trap soon :) lol
@@sureshkumar-kx2xz I was looking at job ads in southern California and the University of California Santa Barbara is hiring for a library position that starts at $16 an hour. You can make more than that doing a much easier job such as security guard for $20 an hour.
Is it that bad aren't you guys doing research that'll help future generations
This abuse and manipulation is beyond anything I could have imagined...I'm not a student; I'm a staff researcher.
I was working on my PhD dissertation and my doctoral mentor kept returning my work with an increasing number of edits and comments each time. Ultimately, it became clear what she wanted. She offered to write my dissertation for me, so that I would then be beholden to her to conduct her future research! Quid Pro Quo!!! I refused to allow her to write it for me!!
This sounds like a very serious practice/ allegation. How did she even make this offer to you? Would she not be concerned that you might report her? Could you tell us more about how this has unfolded after you said no?
@@interestingvideos4me She said to me, "Let me write your dissertation for you." She had done so for another doctoral candidate who agreed, but after she then passed her dissertation and got her degree, she moved back to her native country and then ignored her mentor's requests for assistance with her future research. When I told the same mentor that I would not allow her to write my dissertation, I left the program. I chose not to report her because she had become a close friend. I regret that decision, since my decision not to allow her to write my dissertation soon ended our friendship anyway.
@@lorisokol1833 I am so sorry to hear you went through this. I won't be preaching about 'you should report her'. I can see how this would be very hard no matter what...report or not. It is a horrible situation.I can only imagine the kinds of conflicts you endured while trying to decide what to do... I hope you are well now and have found yourself in whatever path you chose after this experience. Wishing you all the very best ahead.
When they give an unnecessary hard time does that mean they want you to pay them to do it? mine have been driving me in circles for 2 years. I do everything they want work ridiculous hours and still I cant pass my milestone exams.
Wow
All Facts All Day!! Very well said and needed to be said. Thank you!!!
TRUTH!!
Thank you Karen for eloquently addressing the elephant in the room!
Such a wondeful video! I defended my dissertation two weeks into the COVID shutdown. I've been adjuncting for 4 years at a state college and have a "part-time'" assistant professor and director position at a private college with the opportunity to increase responsibility - which really means doing what no one else wants to for no possibility of tenure as clinical staff. The stress and the anxiety is crippling, but I debate whether I should endure it for the amount of financial security and fear of not knowing what to do next.
A big part for me is sadly the fear of not knowing what to do next.... Academia is all I know. I will defend my PhD in the fall but after that.... do I give a postdoc a try and see if i'm still in it for the science or move on to something else? Questions abound...
@@Andy-iy7hd well said. for so many of us, academia is all we know. the thought of leaving after mastering one area of research for years is daunting to say the least.
It's not wonderful, people who don't stop smiling ate toxic. This is no doubt the reason she was rejected from The "cult of academia"
Most people don't need above a bachelors unless they're going to be a psychologist or social worker. I left in my junior year at UCSB and cut my losses. Now my debt is low and I have positive net worth.
I’m currently in this cult, desperately wanting to get out. Since the pandemic, it’s been too damn exhausting and unsupporting. It’s time to go, but how?
If you cannot use your current skills and knowledge to do a job outside academia, the option is to learn new skills. If you need the income, then do this while you stay in the 'cult', then start applying jobs outside. It may take a few years, but if you don't do anything, nothing's going to change and you are still stuck there after a few years.
I get it. I have been part of the cult for a long time now, and initially I felt like it was a worthy pursue - all of it. Now I am just confused. See, I emigrated to the United States and went to Europe, all for education. It opened doors I never even imagined. Aside the fact that my job isn't permanent, I live a good life. But I am now more aware of the downsides of the cult, the lack of employment outcomes within academia, the unfair treatment of minorities and women. While I think the message in this talk is very important, that we (people with higher education degrees) have ways out. I also think this isn't going to help to address the main issue: academia is a cult that we need (we need good professors, we need good research, we need good scientists), but is built in as a hunger games-type enterprise. It pains to think that, if I leave (or when I leave), there will be just another 100 researchers ready to take my place and go through the EXACT SAME.
Sadly, I've seen many times that research grants are not necessarily given to the brightest scientist, but to those who know how to "sell" their poor research. In that hunger game the honest and clever are many times defeated by the aggressive and careless scientist that prefer quantity instead of quality of papers.
The majority of adjuncts toiling in poverty I know do NOT have a way out. They are middle-aged, mostly female, and stuck. They are weighed down as the primary caretakers also of their children and ageing parents. We have NO affordable childcare in the US, and the eldercare here is a terrifying mess. These women face ageism on the job market now as well as sexism. People are just not as mobile as you think they are just b/c they have advanced degrees. Various other forms of discrimination and systemic oppressions often cancel out what mobility they might have gained through advanced degrees.
it's an unsustainable model, and academia only has itself to blame if it collapses. don't ever feel bad for going into industry. I got out of academia even though I am ABD in a phd program. I work in data science in industry. It
is rewarding. Your hard work and insights are valued, and the input you do gets implemented, and you're getting paid to do these things. Things I've done in academia for free nope, worse, I had to pay to do those things in academia. it isn't worth staying in academia if you get an advanced degree. the problem now is a lot of graduate programs don't have strong career programs aka, people who can help you find a job within any industry. they steer people towards academic based work, and to transition into industry takes a lot of self-starter work. Which is fine for someone like me, but with the lack of a clear pipeline (they exist but you gotta go out of your way to get there) most think their degrees are only useful as adjunct professors.
@@whitebeads1 I'm one. I'm a Latina, female, 51, and a cultural anthropologist. I'm adjuncting and working as an academic coach. Yes, with a PhD. I've had no time nor energy to write and publish so I'm screwed.
As for research grants? Pffff three, THREE of my classmates back in the program requested $ to do research in different African countries. Two admitted to some of us that African males treat them like goddesses and they've had the time of their lives when they did their MA research. I'm not saying their research topics were not good, they were. Crucial? Not really but good regardless of their unethical behavior.
Here comes me, at 15-20 years older than the most, applied for different grants to work with adolescent migrants in Central America. ZERO. Sure, my English grammar sometimes does not come out the way that I really would like to, disqualifying me. The department finally felt sorry and gave me $1,500 for a whole year to do field work. I stretched the money and had to work one semester as a TA online. This is my reality and I'm sure the reality of many. Oh and by the way, the girls doing research and having a blast in some remote areas of the African continent, got as much as $20,000.
I selected cultural anthropologist precisely to make a difference, to bring people together. Academia as a cult of elitist does the total opposite.
@@whitebeads1 I have applied with non-profit organizations because I know that is going to fulfill me personally and spiritually. The problem? I'm overqualified. So I hear you. And you are absolutely right, if you're in your 50s and a female, even worse not white, you're screwed.
A great talk and much needed. There is too much delusion about academic turf, which is viewed by many as prestigious.....meanwhile real professional integrity is missed completely. Many academic advisors are themselves lacking self esteem and are not really motivational. This is my experience from over 50 countries.
Brava, Karen! Thank you so much for telling it like it is. There indeed are so many other possibilities than what most of us were taught!
Many good points in the video. I can relate to poor adjunct pay. The "most" I ever made as an adjunct was $2,500 for the semester, divide that by 5 months of the semester and that means $500 a month not including tax deductions. That's not even enough for rent.
What? How is that legal? Also, I an from Europe so I am not familiar with adjunct's position. Could you explain, what adjuncts do?
So why did you do that?
@@zhangyin9160 I needed work experience.
@@AnnaEmilka It's similar to many of the academic positions in Europe, i.e. part-time and paid by credit hours taught. The pay is low when compared with the qualifications and years of experience many academics possess. Only professors with full-time contracts can earn a decent salary, and there aren't many of those positions available relative to the number of qualified applicants. If you want to be a high-earning, full professor you need to be tenured and that takes many years. The number of those positions is even smaller, so most PhDs will never get one.
@@AnnaEmilkaAlso, that $2,500 would be for one course per semester, so you can imagine just how many courses one would have to teach to earn a decent living.
Join the club. This kind of wage slavery (and employee abuse) is not just happening to PhDs, but to many career professionals.
Wokism is another form of cultish exploitation that runs deep across all disciplines. Folks don't mind working extra hard, most times without compensation, to reach the noble institution's goals. For instance, in our efforts toward equity.
Don't take me wrong, I am all 100% for equity! What I want to point out is the gap between academia's noble push for equity and how the results are actually obtained... With free labor from the faculty, of course--dozens and dozens of hours making your courses more accessible, attending workshops, strategizing, reaching out, modifying every handout, video, podcast, Canvas course you ever created, digging everywhere for free, readily accessible materials... or creating them yourself.
You work extra hard, willingly, and with good intentions, but without any compensation from your institution. You might get praised (if you are lucky), and then the next chore comes along... because it is never enough! At the end, you realize you sacrificed your time, resources, and relationships toward accomplishing these lofty goals, but you are left completely depleted, poorer, and lonelier; but, heck, more virtuous too!
Sometimes I think being in academia is almost like being in a relationship with a narcissist...
I am very thankful for your work. I was an adjunct professor at an R2 university for 16 years--fulltime in one department, but outsourced for overloads in a total of 5 colleges and departments so that I was teaching up to 48 credit hours a year. I had benefits, but my full-time pay was 19K a year in 2003. I ran my own ESL business on the side for 18.5 years. I chose to go from my terminal degree to earn a fully-funded PhD at an R1. I have experienced both opposition and support in my endeavor to use my PhD as a tool to help my exit from the academy. So far, it appears that I am successfully positioning my work in a way to help me leave. We will see where I land as I finish my dissertation.
Thank you, Karen. So so much needed.
I had aspirations toward an academic career two decades ago, but got quickly disillusioned and stopped at a Masters. I got a job with the federal government, and never looked back.
I’m in an MSW program and I’m near a mental breakdown. I’ve never been so miserable in my life, never had so much mental snd physical health problems. It’s killing me. And I’m paying to do it but can’t leave. Why?
While studying at university I was shocked when I learned that in order to publish a paper it is I who need to pay for it to be published instead of being payed for my work. It is insulting and devalue work and contribution. It is not even slavery. It is worse than that.
Those are predatory journals
“I don’t get paid to pass my opinions off as work, this is worse than slavery” lol. Lmao.
@@HellCat_Kenny conflating scientific contributions to a journal with opinions is deeply anti-intellectual.
@@HellCat_Kennyyou don’t know the difference between a podcast and a peer reviewed publication, do ya Kenny
I escaped academia. Words are not adequate to describe how happy I am that I left. The grass is greener in industry, it really is.
@Supercollider Are you also a physics 'academic refugee'?
@Supercollider Which one?
@Supercollider I need to read more about genetic engineering techniques. That stuff sounds fascinating.
Thank you for your insights. All what you say explains a lot why forenin students are majority in US graduate programs.
Great straight talk! Thank you, Karen!
I believe this may the best summary I've ever heard on this topic. Thank you, thank you, thank you!!!
Hi Karen, Thanks for your message. Please also another video about the misery of postdocs in academia.
So important. Thank you Karen.
The punchline is that academia is not a meritocracy. I've been horrified by what how unqualified TT professors are - academia IS absolutely a grift! Being successful in academia is luck and schmoozing and PR!
Some really great points in this video. I do think though that the problems extend beyond inadequate funding to incompetent management, unethical practices, corruption and other things besides. Academia needs to be cleaned up and cleaned out.
A lot of the cultural observations are the same I have been storing up in my mind for some time. The medieval monk ethos is very much at the cultural foundation of academia. If you desire job stability or living above the poverty line, you are seen as not truly in it for some vague "intrinsic" value. Exact things cults do when only the values of the cult matter.
My biggest thing is that academia seems to care for degrees more than experience. I talk from an artist stand point.
This was meant for me. For the past week, I've been battling with this.
Thank you Karen for these insights! I was | | this close to starting a PhD last year, but I took a hard pause and said to myself... is this really what I want to do? Now, I am working towards getting into the tech industry!
This is the way… I am many years into a PhD program and need to just get out.
Thank you so much for this Karen!
Undersupplying job and oversupplying PhDs - so sad! I am one of them who did not get tenure job 😪😪
How about the hierarchy that exists concerning disciplines:
Math > Physics > Engineering > Chemistry > Biology > Medicine > anything involving reading
I have businesses, and I’m entrepreneurial. The disillusioned lure of easy access to resources in higher education calls me sometimes but I also don’t believe in becoming a master at one thing/discipline. Education is and will change to meet the quickly evolving world before our eyes.
You are smart!
The resources available to researchers is an illusion. The researchers ARE the true resources.
I left academia after two postdocs and three years of adjunct teaching. Best thing I ever did.
Thank you for this!
As someone who is neurodivergent, I hate the ableism of academia. They act so "woke" but are just elitist, ableist gatekeepers who don't actually want people to learn. If they did, they wouldn't use a module of education with so much control and threats over students.
I mean literal threats towards students that they will be homeless or alone forever all because of their freaking GRADES.
I say this as someone who has CPTSD from schooling and is also a leftist. I believe in human rights, and it's clear that schools only care about capitalism.
They hate men with high functioning autism. Often the academic masters are midwits with no morals
Not totally off the mark. But yea, if you are incompetent and mentally ill, you might not should make the cut for serious academic.
Woke is a disease.
How funny: The people who decide who gets money and who does not are always the ones telling their employees that money does not matter.
I wouldn't call it a "cult." I'd call it a form of pyramid scheme. The people who benefit the most are the professors who get low-cost labor and the university who depends on the research output of these professors and their quasi-slaves.
Professors are also pretty much slaves to the bigger administration of the university-not to mention the undergraduate students who are increasingly treated like pampered business clients instead of students.
I don't understand why we need to get into so much debt to get education
Because it is a scam
Prospective academic professor and PhD with 5 years of Post Doc experience now. Academia and the long road to my prospective career as a professor has contributed in some way to the destruction of my mental health, my marriage, and the relationship with my children. Excessive work hours that were missed with my wife and kids, financial anxiety from barely being able to make ends meet, and addiction problems due to deteriorating mental health. Academia has always been a grueling and challenging battle, but it is only getting harder. My advice to everyone interested is to be prepared for a challenging journey with many sacrifices and to have a legitimate backup plan ready for if and when the time comes when you no longer know what to do. I never had a legitimate backup plan, and that is why I have lost so much.
thank you. the world needs more people like you who can just SAY it. feels very good listening to you. this video can save people from suicide.
So true!!! I left a PhD after 6 months from a very prestigious American university. I fell into the trap simply because I am an Italian man from the south who I studied in the uk 🇬🇧 and earned my BSc Hons, master degree by research (MRes) and got a call from this uni, begging for me to apply with them as they loved my research. I was thrilled initially, “oh I got a call from the USA, from xxx university!!” But then 6 months in it, I found out how toxic the environment really was, among colleagues and among professors, they were not bad people, it’s just the way it is. You gotta work for your professor supervisors’ grants,you gotta teach, you gotta do 10000 things before you have some little time for your own projects… I could go on forever. If I could go back I would only do business and finance and work as a real estate agent… don’t do a PhD guys
What I see in academia is high level researchers forcing PhD students to do research on topics that are of interest of high level researchers. If the PhD student is interested or not is completely irrelevant to high level researchers. This is academia behaving like a corporation.
Wow! Thank you! I needed to hear that! ❤
How come I haven't seen this before! So well said, Karen! I would even say that academia has an MLM structure - to be successful, you need to find followers for your scientific concepts which is, in essence, an unsustainable model.
I wish the critical work academia does for the world and for young people were valued more in our society. But right now it is not. This is an important message.
What you said is important, and there are issues in higher ed, but it is a viable career for many.. It is important to be flexible and change course.
My PhD advisor/supervisor warned me that if I was getting into academia for the money, that it would be a fool’s errand. I’m staying in industry for the income, and I’ll try full time academia when I’m close to retirement age, I think.
"Next time an academic preaches to you about inclusivity ask them how many Republicans are in their sociology department"
~Thomas Sowell
Speaking here as one who tends to lean more politically to the left, you have an excellent point! Indeed, sociology departments that brag about how all or most of their faculty are of liberal mindsets do a disservice to the students in not exposing them to other perspectives.
All day, "errrday" there's faculty and staff pushing students to go into grad school and pushing students into research, and eventually, becoming a professor. This always made me uneasy but this video was so eye-opening. Thank you.
She says early on that Academia is not a cult of Leftism but later declares: we need people with graduate degrees to stop the rise of the Right wing.
Well which is it? Does academia demand normative thinking or not?
Makes good points about the financial peril of academia, otherwise.
Those two things are not mutually exclusive. There are plenty of right-wing institutions that graduate leftist students.
“Starry eyed and full of hero worship.” This was absolutely me a few years ago and when I dropped out of grad school I felt like the biggest failure ever.
In Argentina there's something horrible happening in Universidad de Buenos Aires, where the ones who run the masters/specializations careers handpick students based on their resumes and give them higher notes to the ones with not so flattering resumes, unstable economics and poorer backgrounds, THAT'S RIGHT, and this holds hands with nepotism (a very common thing in Argentina), not giving equal posibilities to those who want to pursue a career and leave poberty behind. This is still happening in 2022, no one speaks about it, since many can't see it and a lot of people get favoured by this system, but just to let you know, this happens in UNIVERSIDAD DE BUENOS AIRES (The most "prestigious" university from iberoamerica).
Do I regret getting a PhD? I actually don't. But I was funded at a good school (with lower cost of living) and we were actually able to increase our savings. But most of our situation was fortuitous in a way that it isn't for most other PhD students. Our situation allowed our family to think hard about whether or not we wanted to try the Postdoc/VAP route, but we didn't think uprooting every 1-2 years made any sense for our kids.
I never bought into the cult of academia, but even for me it was hard to walk away and say I can figure something else out. (I'm technically still involved with some online adjuncting, but that's to help get our little farm off the ground.)
There's definitely a need for states to increase funding of state schools, which would get the unis to a better place. But demographically speaking, universities just aren't going to have the pool of undergrads to justify many new TT positions, especially when the tenured hold on to their jobs to their last dying breath and the adjunct labor is cheap, plentiful, and desperate.
same here, I save during grad school (both myself and my partner were fully funded, which helped a lot). We also lent one tenure track job. So, for us was ok, but we are the exception. All our peers are either adjuncting or have quit academia. No one should spent 5, 6, 8 years of their life and at the end expect this is the most likely outcome
@@zhangyin9160 Glad one of you got a golden ticket! I think the more people that can be honest about the long odds, especially those who made it, the better.
Hmmm.. For me, I have no choice than to stay in Academia because thats the only way for me to move to the U. S. Where I currently live, I have been here for 12 years and not able to get a single day experience on my cv. By the way, I had work experience from my home country before I came here. Came at 23 and now 35. Will be almost 37 by the time I graduate. So, my only hope is to go to U. S. for Academia job.
This video is a good reminder to set priorities right. I am a PhD student. I came into PhD to do research, choose my own projects, choose my partners across the globe, and work on my projects without a boss. It pays me less than corporate but I like doing it. I am learning lot of things and enjoying it.
Good for you. You see the many nuances and the rewards of getting a PhD. I think you will find your way well.
@@JaneGilgun especially if you get a job. If you don't and end up in your 30s adjudicating, that's a different story. Wish you best luck
What is your subject of research?
@@krox477 I research consumer behavior with AI-enabled products/services.
How did you end up doing that?
Karen Kelsky, you rock. Way to tell it like it is!
I recall my mother telling me she thought I told her I didn't want to go to grad school because I thought it was too expensive. I had to explain it's a LOT more complicated than my willingness - or lack thereof -- to go into debt. What I will do with this degree and whether the investment of time, money and sweat would be worth it are very real considerations. A long time retired Ph.D professor friend recently admonished me for not pursuing a degree beyond my B.A. Truthfully, I suspect the people who go this route must do it for love of the subject/field. There are so many pitfalls that could make you want to quit. I don't know what else would give them the fuel. I say God Bless them and we as a culture need to give them all the support they deserve. The culture is better for it.
I was confused why noone would congratulate me on leaving a research institute since I would always congratulate those who leave and wish them a good life. I've overstayed for sure.
Yes ma’am, I was 52/60 credits, into my LLPC, and with only 8 credits, left, I was stopped gaslighted, and literally lied about, where I have a my student file, and the claims made against me are not even documented in my file!
When you do something such as learning and teaching, you develop love after acquiring some understanding. When you understand, you start loving learning. Its a hard path because academia does not pay much anywhere in the world.
Dr. Kelsky: thank you. I’m not kidding when I say that this video has saved my (living my own) life. It’s been a long time coming, but I’m submitting my resignation this week and taking the leap of faith into the belief that someone out there will value me enough to dignify my livelihood and personhood, something the academy has done everything it could to convince me otherwise on.
You are BRAVE!
I know people who have a PhD and now working for $20/hr
unbelievable! Eight years later, I still like her! I read her book when I was in job market. She is telling the truth
Imagine if all those remarkably intelligent people were able to put their collective intelligence towards solving real world day to day problems with real people in the real world. Part of me thinks this works well for 'the system'. Take out the potential intelligence from real society and the system has less resistance to carry on doing what it does. It's like creaming off the strongest in a society so that the society is unable to defend itself from attack.
Considering the cost of higher education and the low pay of the adjunct professors, where does the money go?
We must help ourselves before we can help others.
A truly loving teacher, who loves their students, ensures they (the teacher) are taking plenty of rest and relaxation breaks and acquiring the necessary nutrients, clean air, sunshine, fresh water home grown produce and sleep they require to be functioning optimally to be able to assist their students optimally.
Well described and factual.
Forget Academia , even getting a PHd can also be very traumatizing for minority group students!
And here I'm, working in academia as an entry level researcher and contemplating suicide because of the tremendous pressure I'm facing.
Don't do that. There is freedom outside of academia. There are all kinds of interesting things you can do.
Please don’t no career is worth it! You have career options & people can help you get through this!
hope things are going better man
Jesus said:
“Come to Me all who are weary and heavy laden and I will give you rest.”
Jesus loves you bro, don’t harm yourself. Come to Jesus, He is able to help you because He loves you and saved you and me.
Well. Update time. I am leaving. My current position is ending in a few months. I am lucky, I have a job lined up. Not an academic job. I am blessed with a supportive family and a small network of close friends. Even then, it hasn’t been easy. Having to prove myself again and again and still coming short in the eyes of the superior, it took a toll. Despite all the work, the many weekends, many extra hours, however much I showed up for my students. In the end there weren’t any publications. Not in time to secure an academic job, at least (I did try to apply for those!). But even if I had managed to publish on time, I am still a woman of color, so who knows if it would’ve worked. I am very excited and thankful for the new position I’ll be taking soon, but at the same time, I am very sad about how academia turned out to be. Many days I wished I was a white man, because they were listed more, helped more. I always believed I had to earn everything, the “privilege” to be taught, to be included in projects, chances and opportunities. In hindsight, I wished I hadn’t thought that. I was deserving from day one. There was a selection process, I was chosen to do a job and was considered “a scientist in training”. I didn’t have to work myself to exhaustion to prove I was good and deserving of opportunities to better myself. This was supposed to be the opportunity! Certainly, I didn’t need to change who I am. The system is broken, I know, but I am not happy to leave. In fact I am sad, I’ll miss my students, my science. But I so want stability and for once to not feel like I’m a dog who’s supposed to be thankful to be given leftovers. Let’s see how things go. Best of luck everyone!
Yes, someone is speaking facts. Academia needs to change.
Anecdotes aren't facts
The whole world needs to change
Many years ago, I was at a crossroad. University or, take an entry level position in a trade union ! I chose the union . I study for pleasure now, and I’m so happy with the path I chose . “Though it was quite laborious and, the pay wasn’t great” I thoroughly enjoyed my career as a Union Carpenter. Studying is still my passion however, As a hobby .
A brilliant, accurate analysis.
*8:00** the grift is the multibillion dollar endowment-hedge funds w buildings and land, often owned, attached while charging 10s of thousands per yr (or more) and taking tax breaks*
that too, for sure!
And also academia tbh. After experiencing both academia is worse than private industry.
based
I am currently trying to escape , but it’s very difficult.
I ask everyone to check for polymaths. And you may discover it within you. No identity is bigger than being tied to your real self.
True. Realized this not too long ago. Only YOU - can realize your greatest version. No university nor teacher/prof can do such a thing for you.
None of what is described in this video was my experience (PhD Mathematics). No one I was in graduate school with was paying (supported by TAs or fellowships). Relatively few people got TT positions, but most people understood the chances, and I didn't feel any stigma with considering leaving academia for industry positions. The prospects available to those who did leave were from what I saw, really good.
I have a PhD in math too, and with a similar experience. However, there is a lot more money in all of the STEM fields compared to the humanities. And who I think she is addressing (based on her personal experience) is humanities grad students. I have encountered a certain level of academic snobbishness in math people studying things like algebraic topology who look down on statisticians and people who go to work in finance or focus on applied math and know how to program. It's funny because applied math and statistics are usually the only two fields that bring in any money for a math department. Algebraic topology doesn't keep the lights on.
I've never met a STEM PhD who complained.
Most of the research they did was directly relevant to what some company was interested in, and they got good funding to do it.
For them (and law, business, medicine, public health, etc) the academia->career pipeline is much more clear and certain.
Even in semi-soft sciences like Linguistics and Economics, the job market isn't terrible outside the university.
But for most humanities and social sciences, it's another world completely...
@@onikinSeriously? You obviously don't listen to people then. Take your PhD smartness of researching a topic as you were trained to do in STEM and apply it to this topic...it will open up your eyes to the systemic issues that you are not aware of. This elitist and unaware of reality attitude is a major part of the problem. So many people that work in the sciences are not doing research for a company.
@@jenniferclark7578 I seriously don't understand how can one be unaware of systemic problems within academia after going through the PhD.
I agree with everything said here. I also think some of these talking points have started to work there way down to K-12 teachers.