I thought correctly initially, then you explained the alternate scenario and thought I was wrong, but then applying it all realized I was right initially (and for the right reason). Hope that makes sense, as i tried to avoid spoilers in this comment.
how does it not see itself being in the graveyard to count toward threshold but reanimating a diregraf colossus will see itself being in the graveyard to get an additional counter on it ?
"Enters with" is a replacement effect and happens before the creature enters the battlefield (and therefore while it is in the graveyard), while "when this enters" is a triggered ability and triggers afterwards.
Yeah I basically thought he was talking about "does the Centaur count itself" for about 3/4 of the video before realizing he was focusing on "does it count the Zombify" haha. I agree any replacement effect that applies "as" something is changing zones is a LOT murkier. @@Sheer_Falacy 's explanation is the best you can get but I never liked the "entering with something actually happens before entering"! When you walk into a room, there is sequence of moments where one foot is in one room and the other is in the new room, and Magic's rules don't really allow for that...
@@jerodast I agree that it's murky and often unsatisfactory that there's such a distinction here, but I actually think the analogy you just used might be the best way to draw this distinction. You say the game doesn't really allow for one foot in the door and the other out, but I think that's precisely what "enters with" allows for. It sees that the creature is mostly in whatever zone it is moving from, whether it be the stack, graveyard, deck, exile or anywhere else with one foot firmly planted there and the tiptoes of its other foot just stepping onto the battlefield. In Centaur chieftains case, the ETB trigger actually occurs with both feet fully on the battlefield, but since that happens before resolution of the spell, then it can't see the zombify either. It's one that I was thinking could go the other way, but I can see why it doesn't a little better now
This seems logical to me, but apparently when going from play to the graveyard it is not similar. For example if I have a Deathgreeter in play with a bunch of other creatures, if someones casts a boardwipe apparently the Deathgreeter will trigger for all the other creatures dying. But since all creatures die simultaneously, the deathgreeter is also entering the graveyard when the other creatures do, so I would have thought it wouldn't get to activate its triggered ability, but from what I read it does. That does not sound logical to me.
This is a great question. The short answer is that in order to function properly, some types of triggered abilities, including that one, require special handling. For a full explanation, check out DDR#463: th-cam.com/video/ziJHOprzRiY/w-d-xo.html
This video makes me miss the old way Threshold abilities were worded. Cards with Valiant or Eerie would read so much cleaner if we could skip the text explaining the trigger condition, it simply made more sense to treat it as reminder text. Maybe we need a new mechanic that counts the graveyard like Threshold but gives an emblem like The City's Blessing.
Well, I think the main reason for that is just that they (mostly Eerie, Valiant's more versatile) probably aren't going to be used a ton outside the sets they were in.
@@Dot_Eleven The fact that we are getting so many new sets and mechanics is probably a significant factor in card text becoming more visually cluttered, so I wish we could find different ways to use existing mechanics.
@@MathisGries-ml5qv Honestly, looking over the Odyssey block Threshold cards, only two of them do not have reminder text for it (both Vampires funny enough), so I'm not sure visual clutter is the issue since that text takes about the same length. I think they're paranoid about accidentally creating a mechanical loophole or ambiguity with ability text, so "best practices" are considered to be using very rigid, well-defined templates any time they can, which I agree is clunky. I enjoy playing the "look at new card, consider how I would've phrased it" game haha. I'm just not sure it affects threshold that much.
I see what you mean about it being more elegant for the threshold definition to be reminder text at the end. IIRC the reason to make it an ability word is because the "intervening if" rule ONLY applies if it is literally phrased in the intervening way, and as that became the standard way to set trigger conditions, they didn't want any confusion about threshold not actually working that way - Decaying Soil is an interesting example: a trigger that probably would've been phrased with "intervening if" today, but is functionally different to match the original behavior.
I thought correctly initially, then you explained the alternate scenario and thought I was wrong, but then applying it all realized I was right initially (and for the right reason). Hope that makes sense, as i tried to avoid spoilers in this comment.
Unconfident dufus posts post no one cares about.
I hope you have a great day too
how does it not see itself being in the graveyard to count toward threshold but reanimating a diregraf colossus will see itself being in the graveyard to get an additional counter on it ?
"Enters with" is a replacement effect and happens before the creature enters the battlefield (and therefore while it is in the graveyard), while "when this enters" is a triggered ability and triggers afterwards.
Yeah I basically thought he was talking about "does the Centaur count itself" for about 3/4 of the video before realizing he was focusing on "does it count the Zombify" haha.
I agree any replacement effect that applies "as" something is changing zones is a LOT murkier. @@Sheer_Falacy 's explanation is the best you can get but I never liked the "entering with something actually happens before entering"! When you walk into a room, there is sequence of moments where one foot is in one room and the other is in the new room, and Magic's rules don't really allow for that...
@@jerodast I agree that it's murky and often unsatisfactory that there's such a distinction here, but I actually think the analogy you just used might be the best way to draw this distinction. You say the game doesn't really allow for one foot in the door and the other out, but I think that's precisely what "enters with" allows for. It sees that the creature is mostly in whatever zone it is moving from, whether it be the stack, graveyard, deck, exile or anywhere else with one foot firmly planted there and the tiptoes of its other foot just stepping onto the battlefield. In Centaur chieftains case, the ETB trigger actually occurs with both feet fully on the battlefield, but since that happens before resolution of the spell, then it can't see the zombify either. It's one that I was thinking could go the other way, but I can see why it doesn't a little better now
This seems logical to me, but apparently when going from play to the graveyard it is not similar. For example if I have a Deathgreeter in play with a bunch of other creatures, if someones casts a boardwipe apparently the Deathgreeter will trigger for all the other creatures dying. But since all creatures die simultaneously, the deathgreeter is also entering the graveyard when the other creatures do, so I would have thought it wouldn't get to activate its triggered ability, but from what I read it does. That does not sound logical to me.
This is a great question. The short answer is that in order to function properly, some types of triggered abilities, including that one, require special handling. For a full explanation, check out DDR#463: th-cam.com/video/ziJHOprzRiY/w-d-xo.html
@@JudgingFtW Thanks, that's exactly the video I was looking for
what a cool faerie white board token. I bet fans would pay for those.... just sayin'
This video makes me miss the old way Threshold abilities were worded. Cards with Valiant or Eerie would read so much cleaner if we could skip the text explaining the trigger condition, it simply made more sense to treat it as reminder text. Maybe we need a new mechanic that counts the graveyard like Threshold but gives an emblem like The City's Blessing.
Well, I think the main reason for that is just that they (mostly Eerie, Valiant's more versatile) probably aren't going to be used a ton outside the sets they were in.
@@Dot_Eleven The fact that we are getting so many new sets and mechanics is probably a significant factor in card text becoming more visually cluttered, so I wish we could find different ways to use existing mechanics.
@@MathisGries-ml5qv Honestly, looking over the Odyssey block Threshold cards, only two of them do not have reminder text for it (both Vampires funny enough), so I'm not sure visual clutter is the issue since that text takes about the same length. I think they're paranoid about accidentally creating a mechanical loophole or ambiguity with ability text, so "best practices" are considered to be using very rigid, well-defined templates any time they can, which I agree is clunky. I enjoy playing the "look at new card, consider how I would've phrased it" game haha. I'm just not sure it affects threshold that much.
I see what you mean about it being more elegant for the threshold definition to be reminder text at the end. IIRC the reason to make it an ability word is because the "intervening if" rule ONLY applies if it is literally phrased in the intervening way, and as that became the standard way to set trigger conditions, they didn't want any confusion about threshold not actually working that way - Decaying Soil is an interesting example: a trigger that probably would've been phrased with "intervening if" today, but is functionally different to match the original behavior.
My conclusions are:
1) Yes, make Threshold a keyword again
2) Eliminate "intervening if" phrasing and rule :P