The ensa system : the loop at the clove hitch has to be clipped to the biner, not to put it out of the way, but because the if the clove hitch could slip off the biner. It may seem unlikely but if the loop is short it very well may happen.
This is a big reason that North America needs to be moving to vertically stacked anchors. Both bolts can then share the load of a lead fall. When they are parallel the fall goes onto a single bolt.
Even questionable bolts are usually much stronger than what is needed to absorb the forces from a bad leader fall. A single bolt is shockingly strong if it is of modern construction and not compromised by rust, mechanical damage, or improper installation (if improperly installed, a second badly installed bolt wont help much in any case). Everything we use is now so strong that we should really be moving to stacked, stainless steel, glue in, two point bolted anchors with rappel rings an no other hardware.
Love the series. Would dig a video of how you would do this on trad gear. Also curious, why do the setup off of one bolt (admittedly the more bomber one) vs using the other two strands of the quad as a second master point to spread the load?
Thank you for your clear instructions of pros and cons of certain anchor/belay configurations. I would like to add a remark: At 8:10, you mention, that the open end of the clove hitch "can" be clipped away for neatness. As far as I know a clove hitch does slip with certain materials (probably Dyneema!?) and thus could come fully undone well before the MBS (minus knot-reduction) of the sling. I'm not sure whether this is a problem with your rigid kevlar sling and such a long end, however. What do you think?
The only times a clove hitch has really slipped more than a few centimeters are usually in factory tests where they use brand new dyneema. Other pull tests have shown that having more dirty or slightly used dyneema will add friction to the clovehitch and even a girth hitch. That’s also on a consistent pull where the force is being increased, because of the machine that’s slowly pulling the material apart. In a real life situation the force of the fall is the highest then you have much less force, so the clove hitch just has to hold the first hit then things are fine, so in the end the clove hitch really isn’t going to slip so much that we need to clip off the tail to avoid a total anchor failure.
Interesting stuff, thanks Ryan! If working with a very strong material such as a long dynema sling, can you think of any reason not to use the usual figure 8 master point anchor configuration with a limiter knot close to the bolt to make a small second shelf for belaying?
Ryan, in dire need of a monograph for TR and lead solo. I’ve read “me, myself and I” by Kirkpatrick and nada, didn’t get most of it. Would you consider doing a monograph on that?
If a single 7mm cord has a rating of say 11kN, isn't a single loop two strands ie 22kN (minus the strength loss from a knot, perhaps 50% loss as a rule of thumb)? A loop has two strands like one going in, one coming out.
In general the tighter the bends the knot has the more strength it takes away. So the bigger the knot you tie the wider the bends and that would cause less strength to be taken away. If you put an overhand in a single loop of dyneema that could maybe take 50% away. But if you have two or three strands of 7mm that probably won’t take away a full 50% of the total strength of the anchor.
@@ryantilley9063 50 to 75% is often good enough as a rule of thumb. Bun on video you said you need two loops to anchor to get rating enough. If two strands make make a loop (ie 2x11kN or so) were you thinking doubling due to knot or was it just a fluke? (or perhaps I just got it wrong) I've always thought one loop woud be strong enough with something like 11kN rated cord.
@@hoggif they’re really only talking about the loop that the belay is clipped to and not so much the knot. I think the idea is really just to have a larger margin of error in the system, we both know a climber on a fall probably isn’t going to generate 11kn even with a factor 2, but all the organizations recommend having two strands for a larger margin of safety. You could think of it as one loop of cord vs two loops of cord, in that context the two loops is definelty stronger than the one loop.
What exactly is the blue and silver carabiner that you refer to as the locking one out of the two throughout your examples here? I know it obviously isn’t, but it looks exactly like a regular non-locking snaogate. Is it one of these fancy magnetic gate carabiners I’ve just started hearing about recently?
It is nice to have a little bit of movement of the belay carabiner to help with belaying. You also get just a little bit more of a dynamic element in the belaying, if you clip the carabiner to the bolt it makes an already really hard catch even harder. In addition it could also have a levering effect on the carabiner which could hugely reduce the strength, if the carabiner where over the chains (if the anchor has chains.)
There are still a few examples of times when you can directly belay off of the chains in this though, usually it’s when there’s a rap ring or vertically stacked anchor, I’m planning a video when I find and anchor like that soon.
Always appreciate your concise & clear instruction style
The ensa system : the loop at the clove hitch has to be clipped to the biner, not to put it out of the way, but because the if the clove hitch could slip off the biner. It may seem unlikely but if the loop is short it very well may happen.
This is a big reason that North America needs to be moving to vertically stacked anchors. Both bolts can then share the load of a lead fall. When they are parallel the fall goes onto a single bolt.
They are really nice, I love the vertically stacked anchors
Even questionable bolts are usually much stronger than what is needed to absorb the forces from a bad leader fall. A single bolt is shockingly strong if it is of modern construction and not compromised by rust, mechanical damage, or improper installation (if improperly installed, a second badly installed bolt wont help much in any case). Everything we use is now so strong that we should really be moving to stacked, stainless steel, glue in, two point bolted anchors with rappel rings an no other hardware.
Excellent instruction, thank you.
u dont want to equalize the "ensa anchor style", its more of a connection in series and u clip the loop of the string, because the clove tends to slip
Great stuff as always, thank you.
If you want video ideas, one I haven't seen done is a Chariot belay.
Love the series. Would dig a video of how you would do this on trad gear. Also curious, why do the setup off of one bolt (admittedly the more bomber one) vs using the other two strands of the quad as a second master point to spread the load?
Thank you for your clear instructions of pros and cons of certain anchor/belay configurations.
I would like to add a remark: At 8:10, you mention, that the open end of the clove hitch "can" be clipped away for neatness. As far as I know a clove hitch does slip with certain materials (probably Dyneema!?) and thus could come fully undone well before the MBS (minus knot-reduction) of the sling. I'm not sure whether this is a problem with your rigid kevlar sling and such a long end, however. What do you think?
The only times a clove hitch has really slipped more than a few centimeters are usually in factory tests where they use brand new dyneema. Other pull tests have shown that having more dirty or slightly used dyneema will add friction to the clovehitch and even a girth hitch. That’s also on a consistent pull where the force is being increased, because of the machine that’s slowly pulling the material apart. In a real life situation the force of the fall is the highest then you have much less force, so the clove hitch just has to hold the first hit then things are fine, so in the end the clove hitch really isn’t going to slip so much that we need to clip off the tail to avoid a total anchor failure.
Interesting stuff, thanks Ryan!
If working with a very strong material such as a long dynema sling, can you think of any reason not to use the usual figure 8 master point anchor configuration with a limiter knot close to the bolt to make a small second shelf for belaying?
Thank you!!
Ryan, in dire need of a monograph for TR and lead solo. I’ve read “me, myself and I” by Kirkpatrick and nada, didn’t get most of it. Would you consider doing a monograph on that?
solid video! how much different would it be using a reverso or gri-gri instead of munter?
I’m actually going to talk all about that in the next video in a few days with the different belay styles.
If a single 7mm cord has a rating of say 11kN, isn't a single loop two strands ie 22kN (minus the strength loss from a knot, perhaps 50% loss as a rule of thumb)? A loop has two strands like one going in, one coming out.
In general the tighter the bends the knot has the more strength it takes away. So the bigger the knot you tie the wider the bends and that would cause less strength to be taken away. If you put an overhand in a single loop of dyneema that could maybe take 50% away. But if you have two or three strands of 7mm that probably won’t take away a full 50% of the total strength of the anchor.
@@ryantilley9063 50 to 75% is often good enough as a rule of thumb. Bun on video you said you need two loops to anchor to get rating enough. If two strands make make a loop (ie 2x11kN or so) were you thinking doubling due to knot or was it just a fluke? (or perhaps I just got it wrong)
I've always thought one loop woud be strong enough with something like 11kN rated cord.
@@hoggif they’re really only talking about the loop that the belay is clipped to and not so much the knot. I think the idea is really just to have a larger margin of error in the system, we both know a climber on a fall probably isn’t going to generate 11kn even with a factor 2, but all the organizations recommend having two strands for a larger margin of safety. You could think of it as one loop of cord vs two loops of cord, in that context the two loops is definelty stronger than the one loop.
What exactly is the blue and silver carabiner that you refer to as the locking one out of the two throughout your examples here? I know it obviously isn’t, but it looks exactly like a regular non-locking snaogate. Is it one of these fancy magnetic gate carabiners I’ve just started hearing about recently?
It’s an edelrid slide lock carabiner, there’s a little tab on the gate that slides over the nose and makes it harder for the gate to open.
Can you belay directly off the quick link or bolt above? Whats the advantage of belaying from the strands of the anchor?
It is nice to have a little bit of movement of the belay carabiner to help with belaying. You also get just a little bit more of a dynamic element in the belaying, if you clip the carabiner to the bolt it makes an already really hard catch even harder. In addition it could also have a levering effect on the carabiner which could hugely reduce the strength, if the carabiner where over the chains (if the anchor has chains.)
There are still a few examples of times when you can directly belay off of the chains in this though, usually it’s when there’s a rap ring or vertically stacked anchor, I’m planning a video when I find and anchor like that soon.