I get the sentiment and point, but at the same time it feels a bit like a false dichotomy to be honest. It's not that you can't equally benefit from both approaches: listening implicitly very carefull and listening explicitly (writing it down) very carefully. But I also get that putting out controversial titles gives more of a click, which it definitely did here 😁. "What, so they are actually saying half my life is a delusion and I'm a bad jazz boy 😭😭😭😱.. where is my mommy?!" I do agree with what you refer to as a very good practice of mostly carefully listening without putting it on paper, which sounds like the "implicit transcribing" to me. Incredibly useful and a great practice, because you can easily miss interesting musical devices otherwise, like the broad structure of a solo. It's more a zooming out point of view, birds eye. But the other way around is also equally possible: you can miss out on potential great insights if you've listened to it for 20 hours without zooming in. Writing it down can give you more structure to your observations, it helps your music reading (if thats your thing at least), it helps to see the broader patterns or general idea's or motifs, it helps putting melodies or harmonic devices in context to turn those abstract concepts into something brand new .. And there is so much more, but I'll not bore you and other people to death with those now 😂 Do whatever works best for you by all means, if you think it's a waste of time, then lose it. It certainly helps already by the fact that people take different methodic approaches to jazz and improv to generate creative different outcomes, that's something to be encouraged. And by the way, I do love your playing man! The solo on "African Astray" is superb, thought of transcribing it, but you converted me man ;) P.S. I actually also love the recorder guy you called out at the beginning. Yes he can copy very well and that on itself doesn't mean anything for him as an artist. But I've seen the his WDR feature and he doesn't sound as Michael Brecker at all, but just great in his own way imo. But that's taste of course. All the best /Jorre Edit: fixed some typo's after rereading
1. I actually love looking at transcriptions. 2. I'm not claiming that there is nothing to be gained by transcribing just that I believe there are better ways to work on your playing. I also understand that not everything is available to everyone and for some people it's the most they can do, but there's a difference between understanding that and how it's portrayed as the be-all, end-all of jazz pedagogy. 3 Like I said, I hate talking about specific people, but I have never seen someone so good at transcribing and playing the transcriptions, where that skill (at that level) transfers to their own improvised solos. 4. Parts of African Shabtay are actually a perfect example of things that are worth transcribing. It's a stand-out musical idea that's unique and involves a physical motion that I haven't seen used in that way before. Also, I developed it in other songs and used it in different ways so it's flexible enough to be utilized in original ways by the right people.
People don't get better with transcriptions because they don't practise the transcriptions. Transcribing itself does nothing to you, you need to practise that solo and study it for a few months, until ideas, colours, nuances get into your playing.
@@dannymarkovitchslor626 Yes, and IMHO that is good. Only if you consider it as a preliminary step to learn all the things about the language. (I wrote an email to you)
Good point Mirko! Also, I'd like to add that imho you also can get a better musician by transcribing solo's even without practicing them necessarily. 1. I think it does help the ear to get (a lot) better, which I don't think is a small feat for a musician. It's about the most important one :). That in turn free's you up by giving you more and more confidence on the bandstand to be able to respond (but not mimick) in a musical way. 2. I stopped learning specific licks that I like out of solo's a looong time ago. I'd rather go about the conceptual idea that I like in a particular line, and use that idea to go and try out in different context, blend it with other such ideas etc. You can do that pretty much also by visualising/audiating it, as it's a conceptual thing. 3. By transcribing in depth you get so much more awareness of all the intricate nuances that are so telling of the sound of the individual you're trying to analyse: way of articulation, way of expression, use of vibrato, ... You just usually zoom in way better with better focus on the music then putting it on the speakers of your car.
very wise. thanks for the reminder. I remember reading years ago that Holdsworth never transcribed solos and I thought maybe its because he was a genius .But what you are saying makes sense.
Holds worth i not telling the truth you can not learn a language with out mimicking something you have heard. You do not have to transcribe the whole song but you do have to do small portions of it. Even Charlies Parker Transcribed.
If you transcribe like Guthrie govan, and you don’t actually write anything down, instead you learn to copy the sound as best you can and understand the logic behind as best you can, that’s when you gain from it. Personally, I don’t except to just one day pull out a lick that I transcribed in a solo. That’ll never happen, but all that technique and maybe a new sound that I didn’t know will resonate with me and when it goes through the machine in my head, it’ll come out differently than it would have before I transcribed it.
man these videos crack me up :D I go a lot by gut feeling, and always feel transcribing solos is a waste of time. You feel good you put some time into something but then 83.54% of that time just goes cold on you (there's a 16.46% that actually does something, according to MIT studies I invented). Gave up on that and instead, I jump around and latch onto whatever catches my attention, like a bloodthirsty vampire. But even then, I get this mixed feeling that I learned something but it's that guy's thing, not mine; like it's more of a springboard, not the jump itself. So my gut says I totally agree with what you're saying; but on the other hand I feel some people do learn a lot from transcribing, are good at it, and play great. Then, I'm a diletantte who hardly ever even practices, so wtf am I even commenting
memorizing and Understanding are two different things. At some point we have to drop everything and wrk on our own stuff from a place of Understanding . Not reciting.
This very narrow definition of transcription is a strawman. Everything you're saying people should do is part of the transcription process. The writing it down is really just a small part and yes, you could argue learning to do that and spending the time doing it isn't useful (although having done both on guitar I think it is, especially for working on rhythms), but doing everything required to get you to the point where you can do that will absolutely make you a better musician.
@@marbinmusic yeah, I get that. I'm just saying the writing down bit is a small part of the transcribing process, which can really help with rhythm etc. (on guitar, not sure about other instruments), so if people are using it fully and not just focussing on the note it can really help. Plus if you're good at it you can sell the transcriptions and buy Dani new guitars that aren't all scuffed up!
I get the sentiment and point, but at the same time it feels a bit like a false dichotomy to be honest. It's not that you can't equally benefit from both approaches: listening implicitly very carefull and listening explicitly (writing it down) very carefully. But I also get that putting out controversial titles gives more of a click, which it definitely did here 😁. "What, so they are actually saying half my life is a delusion and I'm a bad jazz boy 😭😭😭😱.. where is my mommy?!"
I do agree with what you refer to as a very good practice of mostly carefully listening without putting it on paper, which sounds like the "implicit transcribing" to me. Incredibly useful and a great practice, because you can easily miss interesting musical devices otherwise, like the broad structure of a solo. It's more a zooming out point of view, birds eye. But the other way around is also equally possible: you can miss out on potential great insights if you've listened to it for 20 hours without zooming in. Writing it down can give you more structure to your observations, it helps your music reading (if thats your thing at least), it helps to see the broader patterns or general idea's or motifs, it helps putting melodies or harmonic devices in context to turn those abstract concepts into something brand new .. And there is so much more, but I'll not bore you and other people to death with those now 😂
Do whatever works best for you by all means, if you think it's a waste of time, then lose it. It certainly helps already by the fact that people take different methodic approaches to jazz and improv to generate creative different outcomes, that's something to be encouraged. And by the way, I do love your playing man! The solo on "African Astray" is superb, thought of transcribing it, but you converted me man ;)
P.S. I actually also love the recorder guy you called out at the beginning. Yes he can copy very well and that on itself doesn't mean anything for him as an artist. But I've seen the his WDR feature and he doesn't sound as Michael Brecker at all, but just great in his own way imo. But that's taste of course.
All the best
/Jorre
Edit: fixed some typo's after rereading
1. I actually love looking at transcriptions. 2. I'm not claiming that there is nothing to be gained by transcribing just that I believe there are better ways to work on your playing. I also understand that not everything is available to everyone and for some people it's the most they can do, but there's a difference between understanding that and how it's portrayed as the be-all, end-all of jazz pedagogy. 3 Like I said, I hate talking about specific people, but I have never seen someone so good at transcribing and playing the transcriptions, where that skill (at that level) transfers to their own improvised solos. 4. Parts of African Shabtay are actually a perfect example of things that are worth transcribing. It's a stand-out musical idea that's unique and involves a physical motion that I haven't seen used in that way before. Also, I developed it in other songs and used it in different ways so it's flexible enough to be utilized in original ways by the right people.
P.S that was me commenting
People don't get better with transcriptions because they don't practise the transcriptions. Transcribing itself does nothing to you, you need to practise that solo and study it for a few months, until ideas, colours, nuances get into your playing.
The specific example I gave (and others that come to mind) are of people that do learn to play the solo perfectly with the recordings.
@@dannymarkovitchslor626 Yes, and IMHO that is good. Only if you consider it as a preliminary step to learn all the things about the language. (I wrote an email to you)
Good point Mirko! Also, I'd like to add that imho you also can get a better musician by transcribing solo's even without practicing them necessarily.
1. I think it does help the ear to get (a lot) better, which I don't think is a small feat for a musician. It's about the most important one :). That in turn free's you up by giving you more and more confidence on the bandstand to be able to respond (but not mimick) in a musical way.
2. I stopped learning specific licks that I like out of solo's a looong time ago. I'd rather go about the conceptual idea that I like in a particular line, and use that idea to go and try out in different context, blend it with other such ideas etc. You can do that pretty much also by visualising/audiating it, as it's a conceptual thing.
3. By transcribing in depth you get so much more awareness of all the intricate nuances that are so telling of the sound of the individual you're trying to analyse: way of articulation, way of expression, use of vibrato, ... You just usually zoom in way better with better focus on the music then putting it on the speakers of your car.
Getting better every time!
very wise. thanks for the reminder. I remember reading years ago that Holdsworth never transcribed solos and I thought maybe its because he was a genius .But what you are saying makes sense.
Holds worth i not telling the truth you can not learn a language with out mimicking something you have heard. You do not have to transcribe the whole song but you do have to do small portions of it. Even Charlies Parker Transcribed.
Somehow i understood this long time ago !!
If you transcribe like Guthrie govan, and you don’t actually write anything down, instead you learn to copy the sound as best you can and understand the logic behind as best you can, that’s when you gain from it. Personally, I don’t except to just one day pull out a lick that I transcribed in a solo. That’ll never happen, but all that technique and maybe a new sound that I didn’t know will resonate with me and when it goes through the machine in my head, it’ll come out differently than it would have before I transcribed it.
Guthrie Govan tells me to transcribe solos - I transcribe solos.
When you talk to him next can you please tell him we want to play some shows with the aristocrats?
@@dannymarkovitchslor626 You know, next time I get a chance I will. He is a very sweet guy.
I believe it. He always seems like a cool dude.
Why did Nick cut out the outro? :(
This video was 3 and half hours with the outro.
man these videos crack me up :D I go a lot by gut feeling, and always feel transcribing solos is a waste of time. You feel good you put some time into something but then 83.54% of that time just goes cold on you (there's a 16.46% that actually does something, according to MIT studies I invented). Gave up on that and instead, I jump around and latch onto whatever catches my attention, like a bloodthirsty vampire. But even then, I get this mixed feeling that I learned something but it's that guy's thing, not mine; like it's more of a springboard, not the jump itself. So my gut says I totally agree with what you're saying; but on the other hand I feel some people do learn a lot from transcribing, are good at it, and play great. Then, I'm a diletantte who hardly ever even practices, so wtf am I even commenting
Danny, What do you think about sitting down and composing choruses- either with transcribed licks or formulas or our own ideas?
I'm not into it. I just don't see the benefit.
Bob Berg was My Father .................................................... Just Kidding . Great advice.
mY jIU jITSU FRIEND and great Sax player, ,,,,, Preach it.
memorizing and Understanding are two different things. At some point we have to drop everything and wrk on our own stuff from a place of Understanding . Not reciting.
Even George Benson transcribes or at least gets ideas. I am not saying copy note for note at least get the idea and direction of the song.
I agree
My accent brings Grant Green to My Yard .
So what youre saying is, people (especially guitarists) should only transcribe their own solos to see how terrible they are.
🤣🤣🤣🤣
Survey: Who gave Danny that black eye?
The biker dude from village people for stealing his look
Got injured by accident while trying to stop a riot of people in his yard expecting milkshake. Am I close?
😊😊😊
This very narrow definition of transcription is a strawman. Everything you're saying people should do is part of the transcription process. The writing it down is really just a small part and yes, you could argue learning to do that and spending the time doing it isn't useful (although having done both on guitar I think it is, especially for working on rhythms), but doing everything required to get you to the point where you can do that will absolutely make you a better musician.
I'm not arguing it doesn't make you better at all, but that it's overrated and that there are better ways to spend your practice time.
@@marbinmusic yeah, I get that. I'm just saying the writing down bit is a small part of the transcribing process, which can really help with rhythm etc. (on guitar, not sure about other instruments), so if people are using it fully and not just focussing on the note it can really help. Plus if you're good at it you can sell the transcriptions and buy Dani new guitars that aren't all scuffed up!
The Donald Trumps of Music
I play more notes than anyone. I know it, you know it, pretty much everybody knows it.