YES please make armor size based on gun size. Shooting armor 1 size up 50% damage 2 sizes up 25% damage 3 sizes you do nothing. I always look at gun caliber vs steel targets. You can buy cheep BB gun targets that will get holes from a 22lr go up to mild steel pistol targets, ar500 "small" rifle targets so on and so forth
This is how I want CIG to make armor work, I would also like it if they gave certain systems such as turrets or shield emitters variable armor classes. This would give lighter ships the ability to soften up larger targets but leave them unable to cause any major damage. for example, heavy fighters/light bombers could take out point defense or emitters to open gaps in the shields for the heavy bombers to exploit.
The biggest reason I think the Captial ships tag should apply to the ships they do in Star citizen is because of the fact they are the biggest ships a player can own. Even if they aren't the biggest in the universe itself. At the same time it also helps generalize the size if the ships. In terms of player ownable ones they can simply be small craft, sub capital, and capital. This would make reporting movement easy to do without having to identify every ship, merely looking at the general size to determine their category.
I don't know why but what comes to mind when I hear capital, I imagine so massive that your need hundreds of members (NPC/players) The Idris doesn't even feel like a Capital ship to me and the Javelin is the base of the Capital ship tier list in my mind. A capital ship should have enough space to house 100s of people, weaponry and size of a small town, and if it's also a ship carrier than it should be able to house 25 Small fighters, or 10 Small, 5 medium and 2 large. But I'm not sure I would even put them in players hands or at least, not make them purchasable at all.
I'm in favor of a armor pen system like wot or war thunder. The ballistics will continue to pen shields at a percentage like they do in 3.21. Laser will not pen shields but do damage to shields. The armor will reduce damage by having smaller ballistic have a bounce of chance based on size and type (i.e. cannons having a high pen value then ballistics). Laser weapons will all have full pentration making the shields going down within a swarm of fighters still dangerous for capitals but relatively safe while theyre up (b/c theyll be immune to the fighter ballistics). This would create some interestin gameplay decisions on wether to run ballistics or lasers. Are you fighting ship to similar sizes of your own? Whats the rest of your group running? Is your target a heavily amored military vessel or a heavily shielded industry vessel? Etc. Thoughts?
if it was only 2 damage types that might work. but when you have different armor and weapon sizes, and multiple damage types like Ballistic, Explosive, Energy, Damage over time/plasma, radiation, thermal buildup, possibly stealth modifiers and god knows what-else is in the works. such a simple system like in wot/wt falls apart and cant really be used. Remember you must not only build an armor system that works for all of these different damage types, but you must find a way to communicate all that info the player. and while a WOT/WT armor system might be good for kinetics and maybe explosive, it wont work very well in a space game like SC.. unless you mean youre in favor of some vehicles like light fighters just being totally unable to damage others like corvettes and what not, in which case i agree and did cover that in this video. thats how things should be if your weapon is too small.
@TheAngriestGamer. What do you think of having lasers do the same damage to all ships when shields are down. Of course smaller sizes do less damage overall but the same damage regardless of ship size when shields are down?
@@Ethan-hh8zn because lasers have to shoot through the shields before they can do any damage to the hull, im actually infavor of them doing as much damage as possible to the hull as a balancing factor, and not giving many if any ships any kind of energy damage reductions to the their hull. i think they should do full damage. But ONLY if the weapon is powerful enough to penetrate the armor in the 1st place. again having a bunch of S1-3 energy guns shooting at a corvette or idris shouldn't do anything to the ship at all. if you want to take down larger targets, get the proper tool for the job, either much larger weapons like on a Vanguard or Ares fighter, or get a torpedo bomber, or another large ship to slug it out with that one. I hate the idea that a thousand misquotes can kill an elephant. in ww2 fighter planes NEVER strafed and sunk cruisers or battleships with machine-gun fire, EVER. its nonsensical.
@TheAngriestGamer. Yes in ww2, but the vanduul in sc lore are dangerous because the use swarm tactics w/ their light fighter as there main combat strategy, and the coincentdently only use laser weapons so it makes sense in universe (as long as shields are beefy enough). With this model any ship 1v1 with a ship of the same size model usually prefers ballistics to win. So a fleet has to make choice on what to run... you know they usually run only a one or 2 'captial ships' you outfit you captials with ballistics to take theirs out fast... your fleet has a ton of fighters you run lasers to take down the shields quickly so your fighters an start chipping into their captial ship... your know they run tons of fighter with lasers you outfit your fighter with ballistic to counter them... etc Having a light fighter orbit cap ship to death doesn't make any sense and isn't great for gameplay... but having screen of fighters be not threaten to larger ships isn't great either This way the fighters are still dangerous to larger ships but can't actually be threatening until the ships shields are down (which should be nearly impossible for a light fighter on its own)
@@Ethan-hh8zn the Vandals definition of "light fighter" has the firepower of most human heavies, cuz they are rocking size 4 guns not 3s or 2s. and their medium fighter is rocking twin S5s which are FAC/Sub Corvette grade weapons. Alien fighters are monstrously over gunned so thats not really a standard example of a traditional "light fighter" they are outliers like the buccaneer. most light fighters like the Mustangs, Gladiolus, arrow, 1 of the shrikes and the origin ships etc etc, all make use of S1-3 guns. that being said while i don't see them being a threat to very large ships armor, i do see what you mean with keeping shields down due to sheer volume of fire, and that might be a good thing to do. CIG also wants to attack sub-components like turrets, which would also be a threat to capitals over time, as they run the risk of being "de-fanged" and boarded. Personally i would go back to having shields CONSTANTLY recharging if they haven't been fully lowered, and i would only pause a recharge if they go to 0 hp and have to reset. but if they even have 1 HP then they should constantly be recharging at their max rate, so if you want to bring them down you need to hammer them with enough DPS it overwhelms their Regen rates then keep em at 0 to force constant rests.
This would be to simple for CIG lol. It needs to be where everything has its own place so it can be refactored constantly to delay the games release..... lol
yes that is how it seems, they are very incompetent. when i heard them say that "balance was an ever shifting goal post" i fell over and started seizing/foaming at the mouth from how stupid and wrong that was. i didn't even finish the armor system. this is just the 1st part of a 2 parter. i didnt have time this weekend to go over all of it.
The only way this would work is if ships had different size, plating, and weak points. so maybe one ship has oversized plating on its top and bottom, but has undersize plating in the rear…. Smaller ships still have to be able to attack weak points. Also, you said things like war thunder are bad for heat, rounds or explosions and it’s not true. You can easily do ballistic calculators that match the caliber of the round versus the armor plate Explosion power, and shatter potential of plates. Explosive damage armor turns the armor itself into the weapon, and spal. Lasers would be simple. They need time to heat up the plates before they could penetrate but once the plate hit a certain hit point barrier lasers could do 100% damage. So the thicker plate the more concentrated fire needs to be done on it, and slowly the plate would cool. It’s similar to what they have with shields now. The only problem with the war system is CIG did not come up with ship designs based off of ballistic angles . But the system itself is brilliant. I thought war thunder would get bogged down because it has such realistic ballistics but even with things like a 50 caliber where you’re spamming shots, the game runs great
you dont need to have weaker facings.. you could but you don't need to. "armor" class values could be given to parts of the ship on an individual level, so fighters would have to focus on taking out turrets of larger ships and going after engines. other then that, stopping big ships from dying to little ships/guns is kinda to whole point of armor. what i showed in the video defiantly isn't the only way to do armor ofc. their are different ways do do it. but the warthunder/world of tanks type system with bullet deflection and impact angles is unnecessary for a game like SC, and is a ton of work for something that would only effect projectiles. its not a solution for every type of damage we will eventually get in SC. the Heat and HE/Spalling doesn't work for shit in WT either. again what i said in the video isnt the only way to make an armor system, you can make it as complicated as you want it. But Warthunder is a perfect example of what not to do tbh.
i was told by someone awhile ago that the arrow was suppose to have armor sense it is a anvil ship. Anvil really likes to build armored craft, and because it was suppose to have armor this is why CIG removed its 2nd S1 shield. it made sense to me when they explained it, but idk how true that is, so that little nugget could be wrong. If it is, i apologize. im not sure we will get an answer any time soon because even the most basic of armor systems isn't in the game. i do for a fact know that the gladiator and especially the hornet series are OLDDDD designs that predate alot of the UEEs more modern shield heavy designs, and these older designs were REALLY well armored to the point of being obnoxious to fight, but it made them have smaller than normal shields as well as being sluggish and burn lots of fuel as the trade off. but again without a proper armor system ingame, nothing is working like its suppose to because were just shooting Raw damage at raw HP.
Keep this video up man you have potential!
Good voice, interesting thoughts, & reasoning behind them.
YES please make armor size based on gun size. Shooting armor 1 size up 50% damage 2 sizes up 25% damage 3 sizes you do nothing.
I always look at gun caliber vs steel targets. You can buy cheep BB gun targets that will get holes from a 22lr go up to mild steel pistol targets, ar500 "small" rifle targets so on and so forth
This is how I want CIG to make armor work, I would also like it if they gave certain systems such as turrets or shield emitters variable armor classes. This would give lighter ships the ability to soften up larger targets but leave them unable to cause any major damage.
for example, heavy fighters/light bombers could take out point defense or emitters to open gaps in the shields for the heavy bombers to exploit.
The biggest reason I think the Captial ships tag should apply to the ships they do in Star citizen is because of the fact they are the biggest ships a player can own. Even if they aren't the biggest in the universe itself. At the same time it also helps generalize the size if the ships.
In terms of player ownable ones they can simply be small craft, sub capital, and capital. This would make reporting movement easy to do without having to identify every ship, merely looking at the general size to determine their category.
I don't know why but what comes to mind when I hear capital, I imagine so massive that your need hundreds of members (NPC/players) The Idris doesn't even feel like a Capital ship to me and the Javelin is the base of the Capital ship tier list in my mind. A capital ship should have enough space to house 100s of people, weaponry and size of a small town, and if it's also a ship carrier than it should be able to house 25 Small fighters, or 10 Small, 5 medium and 2 large. But I'm not sure I would even put them in players hands or at least, not make them purchasable at all.
I'm in favor of a armor pen system like wot or war thunder. The ballistics will continue to pen shields at a percentage like they do in 3.21. Laser will not pen shields but do damage to shields. The armor will reduce damage by having smaller ballistic have a bounce of chance based on size and type (i.e. cannons having a high pen value then ballistics). Laser weapons will all have full pentration making the shields going down within a swarm of fighters still dangerous for capitals but relatively safe while theyre up (b/c theyll be immune to the fighter ballistics). This would create some interestin gameplay decisions on wether to run ballistics or lasers. Are you fighting ship to similar sizes of your own? Whats the rest of your group running? Is your target a heavily amored military vessel or a heavily shielded industry vessel? Etc. Thoughts?
if it was only 2 damage types that might work. but when you have different armor and weapon sizes, and multiple damage types like Ballistic, Explosive, Energy, Damage over time/plasma, radiation, thermal buildup, possibly stealth modifiers and god knows what-else is in the works. such a simple system like in wot/wt falls apart and cant really be used. Remember you must not only build an armor system that works for all of these different damage types, but you must find a way to communicate all that info the player.
and while a WOT/WT armor system might be good for kinetics and maybe explosive, it wont work very well in a space game like SC.. unless you mean youre in favor of some vehicles like light fighters just being totally unable to damage others like corvettes and what not, in which case i agree and did cover that in this video. thats how things should be if your weapon is too small.
@TheAngriestGamer. What do you think of having lasers do the same damage to all ships when shields are down. Of course smaller sizes do less damage overall but the same damage regardless of ship size when shields are down?
@@Ethan-hh8zn because lasers have to shoot through the shields before they can do any damage to the hull, im actually infavor of them doing as much damage as possible to the hull as a balancing factor, and not giving many if any ships any kind of energy damage reductions to the their hull. i think they should do full damage.
But ONLY if the weapon is powerful enough to penetrate the armor in the 1st place. again having a bunch of S1-3 energy guns shooting at a corvette or idris shouldn't do anything to the ship at all. if you want to take down larger targets, get the proper tool for the job, either much larger weapons like on a Vanguard or Ares fighter, or get a torpedo bomber, or another large ship to slug it out with that one. I hate the idea that a thousand misquotes can kill an elephant.
in ww2 fighter planes NEVER strafed and sunk cruisers or battleships with machine-gun fire, EVER. its nonsensical.
@TheAngriestGamer. Yes in ww2, but the vanduul in sc lore are dangerous because the use swarm tactics w/ their light fighter as there main combat strategy, and the coincentdently only use laser weapons so it makes sense in universe (as long as shields are beefy enough). With this model any ship 1v1 with a ship of the same size model usually prefers ballistics to win.
So a fleet has to make choice on what to run... you know they usually run only a one or 2 'captial ships' you outfit you captials with ballistics to take theirs out fast... your fleet has a ton of fighters you run lasers to take down the shields quickly so your fighters an start chipping into their captial ship... your know they run tons of fighter with lasers you outfit your fighter with ballistic to counter them... etc
Having a light fighter orbit cap ship to death doesn't make any sense and isn't great for gameplay... but having screen of fighters be not threaten to larger ships isn't great either
This way the fighters are still dangerous to larger ships but can't actually be threatening until the ships shields are down (which should be nearly impossible for a light fighter on its own)
@@Ethan-hh8zn the Vandals definition of "light fighter" has the firepower of most human heavies, cuz they are rocking size 4 guns not 3s or 2s. and their medium fighter is rocking twin S5s which are FAC/Sub Corvette grade weapons. Alien fighters are monstrously over gunned so thats not really a standard example of a traditional "light fighter" they are outliers like the buccaneer. most light fighters like the Mustangs, Gladiolus, arrow, 1 of the shrikes and the origin ships etc etc, all make use of S1-3 guns.
that being said while i don't see them being a threat to very large ships armor, i do see what you mean with keeping shields down due to sheer volume of fire, and that might be a good thing to do. CIG also wants to attack sub-components like turrets, which would also be a threat to capitals over time, as they run the risk of being "de-fanged" and boarded.
Personally i would go back to having shields CONSTANTLY recharging if they haven't been fully lowered, and i would only pause a recharge if they go to 0 hp and have to reset. but if they even have 1 HP then they should constantly be recharging at their max rate, so if you want to bring them down you need to hammer them with enough DPS it overwhelms their Regen rates then keep em at 0 to force constant rests.
This would be to simple for CIG lol. It needs to be where everything has its own place so it can be refactored constantly to delay the games release..... lol
yes that is how it seems, they are very incompetent. when i heard them say that "balance was an ever shifting goal post" i fell over and started seizing/foaming at the mouth from how stupid and wrong that was.
i didn't even finish the armor system. this is just the 1st part of a 2 parter. i didnt have time this weekend to go over all of it.
The only way this would work is if ships had different size, plating, and weak points. so maybe one ship has oversized plating on its top and bottom, but has undersize plating in the rear…. Smaller ships still have to be able to attack weak points.
Also, you said things like war thunder are bad for heat, rounds or explosions and it’s not true.
You can easily do ballistic calculators that match the caliber of the round versus the armor plate Explosion power, and shatter potential of plates.
Explosive damage armor turns the armor itself into the weapon, and spal. Lasers would be simple. They need time to heat up the plates before they could penetrate but once the plate hit a certain hit point barrier lasers could do 100% damage.
So the thicker plate the more concentrated fire needs to be done on it, and slowly the plate would cool. It’s similar to what they have with shields now.
The only problem with the war system is CIG did not come up with ship designs based off of ballistic angles . But the system itself is brilliant.
I thought war thunder would get bogged down because it has such realistic ballistics but even with things like a 50 caliber where you’re spamming shots, the game runs great
you dont need to have weaker facings.. you could but you don't need to. "armor" class values could be given to parts of the ship on an individual level, so fighters would have to focus on taking out turrets of larger ships and going after engines.
other then that, stopping big ships from dying to little ships/guns is kinda to whole point of armor.
what i showed in the video defiantly isn't the only way to do armor ofc. their are different ways do do it.
but the warthunder/world of tanks type system with bullet deflection and impact angles is unnecessary for a game like SC, and is a ton of work for something that would only effect projectiles. its not a solution for every type of damage we will eventually get in SC.
the Heat and HE/Spalling doesn't work for shit in WT either. again what i said in the video isnt the only way to make an armor system, you can make it as complicated as you want it.
But Warthunder is a perfect example of what not to do tbh.
Out of interest what game/s have you developed since becoming an indie developer?
oke few questions sins wen arrow supper armored the terapin yes the arrow is new to me also cant find it anywere
i was told by someone awhile ago that the arrow was suppose to have armor sense it is a anvil ship. Anvil really likes to build armored craft, and because it was suppose to have armor this is why CIG removed its 2nd S1 shield.
it made sense to me when they explained it, but idk how true that is, so that little nugget could be wrong.
If it is, i apologize.
im not sure we will get an answer any time soon because even the most basic of armor systems isn't in the game.
i do for a fact know that the gladiator and especially the hornet series are OLDDDD designs that predate alot of the UEEs more modern shield heavy designs, and these older designs were REALLY well armored to the point of being obnoxious to fight, but it made them have smaller than normal shields as well as being sluggish and burn lots of fuel as the trade off.
but again without a proper armor system ingame, nothing is working like its suppose to because were just shooting Raw damage at raw HP.
@@TheAngriestGamer. also if you want have a number of links about what cig did say about armore
if you want them let me know