I restored an 1883 Steinway Model A, but made different choices. Steinway has extensively researched soundboard cracks, and concludes they have no impact on sound. So I cleaned up the soundboard, and rebuilt all wippens and hammershanks...and replaced all felt, but after completion desired a more powerful tone so fit Steinway B hammershanks and hammerheads, each hand shaped as the felt is denser and hammerheads a bit larger. Only Steinway parts were used. Case was simply polished out. I mention these things only to suggest that the are many approaches to old Steinway restoration. I made 387 videos, showing all work on the TH-cam channel, Restoring An Old Steinway Piano.
Congratulations on your restoration! I wish I could see the videos but I was unable to locate them on your channel. I admire your approach which I might call a “hobbyist’s” approach. This is not to imply any lack of skill compared to a professional but only to say that those in the business of selling or restoring pianos for profit have to watch the hours spent in such a project. In my situation, rebuilding the original parts isn’t feasible. As I mentioned, I will be using Renner action parts. However, since they first video I have decided to go with Steinway hammers rather than Ronsen Bacon felt. I’m convinced the latter would have been beautiful but so will Steinways, and having them will be a selling point. Regarding cracks, I often preach the good news that they are not as damning as people fear and often have no consequence to the sound. My A, however, had some serious rib separation, and that IS a problem. There’s no reason not to repair the cracks as well while the plate is out, for aesthetics, salability, and potential gains (even if slight) in energy transfer. Please provide a link to a video of your Steinway if you don’t mind. I’d love to check it out.
I've rebuilt several Steinways of this era and some even older. I keep the original soundboard and fix what is there. Its just great aged wood that gives the piano a great sound. I have seen other Steinways with new Bolduc soundboards and yes they sound ok but there is still a quality that is missing - they are a bit lifeless. But to the untrained ear they sound fine. Curious to know does this have the extra bridge in the low tenor. I forget when Steinway discontinued this practice. I would mention from experience that you should replace the agraffes on this old of a piano. You never know when one will break from mental fatigue. Your choice of hammers sounds good. I have never used them but imagine it will give the piano a very warm sound. My go to hammers have been Abel cold pressing which have served me well. My 1916 Steinway M has them and its a great sound - of course I've voice them to what I like. Looking forward to upcoming videos on this piano.
Hi Don, nice to hear your experience. I'm so excited to hear how this piano turns out! As I mention in the video the board is from the middle of the century--replaced by Steinway--not original. But it seems to be a good sounding one even with (and now I'm spoiling my next video) a sizable rib separation. I do wonder if there is some "magic" from older Steinway eras that can't be replicated. I optimistically hope that the new Bolduc boards will ripen with the benefit of time. After all, I find many new Steinways to be a bit lacking in soul while sounding, as you say, "fine". Definitely replacing those agraffes, especially since back then they used the 3/8" diameter threading, not 1/4"! I hear Abel naturals and Ronsen are in the same world, so great minds... No separate tenor bridge. Thanks for watching!
Very cool Ben, good luck. One thing about these old pianos that concerns me is the life of the soundboard. Although this one was replaced in the 30s, it's still 90 years old and beyond the useful life of most soundboards. I imagine the wood fibers have lost a lot of their springiness. How do you assess whether the soundboard is still OK and has decent longevity remaining? I too am interested in the epoxy technique, especially what Del Fandrich talks about as a way to stiffen an old board. I wonder what would happen if an old board is sanded down to open up the pores and make it thinner and lighter, then flooded with thin epoxy to stiffen the wood fibers, and maybe even add another layer on top to make it almost like a carbon fiber soundboard. I guess you'd have to find an epoxy that has the right hardness and acoustic properties. It would be great to have a soundboard treatment that works as well as a new board, and not require the major surgery of taking out the old board. Look forward to seeing your progress!
Hi Emery, I’m appreciate you weighing in. Regarding soundboard longevity, I’ve long heard one can think of boards going through three 40-yr stages. In the first 40 years the board “ripens” or “sweetens” (though it’s the loudest when brand new and the most pressurized). The next 40 years are a plateau during which the quality of sound is stable. Then begins a 40-year decent into non-utility. :-( (Now, of course many factors come into play-build quality, climate, care received, etc.) So you’re right that we’re pushing it with this piano. But the sound! It clearly has lots of life in it (as does my 1924 Chickering with the original un-repaired board). Also, to clarify, the _patent_ is from the late 30s. The board could be from a decade or two later. I doubt I’ll ever know. But the hope is that with the epoxy treatment we will catch the board near the end of its 2nd stage and preserve it longer than than the normal 40-year decline. Stay tuned. In the next segment I’ll have John Johansen go over the epoxy procedure.
Dude, I am so all over this.... ...really important point.... what do you think about putting modern hammers on this piano? I just had the worst experience here in Austria, I spent already 4 months trying to get new Renner hammers for my 1904 Boesendorfer. And I was denied by Renner USA, Renner Germany and Renner Austria. First off, they say that the vienna mechanic does not support new hammers, second, they refuse to sell to an indeividual, third, all of the local piano technicians refuse to do it. Now I have decided to do it myself, I took all the measurements myself and asked a technician here to order Abel hammers for me. The Boesendorfers from 1904 had leather over felt, that sound like crap. And my theory.... ...why I had to do this all "back door", because it sounds so good, if they let people put new hammers on their old boesendorfers they wont sell as many new ones. Agree? Here is the best I could do so far, this is with the old 1904 hammers, leather pulled off, and a thin fake-felt strip glued over the top.... it is almost what I want. But with new hammers, it will be golden.... th-cam.com/video/wKGyVh7kyTQ/w-d-xo.html
And I should mention that Abel Germany also denied me. At this point I knew it was better to keep my piano make and year a secret, I almost got the hammers, then they cancelled saying that they will not sell to an individual. Feels like dealing with the mafia.
Wow Thomas! What's a man gotta do to get some hammuhs. (My Brooklyn accent is coming out.) Seems you need to get with a technician and have them order to your specs _no questions asked_ . And you may be onto something. Here in the US, Steinway realizes their most formidable competitor is used Steinways. Would you be going with Abel 'naturals'? I admire your self determination gluing those felt strips in place, my god! It is a captivating sound! I'm glad you hear the Steinway's beauty. I think it's SUPER promising! I have every reason to believe they are Steinway hammers, probably dating from the time the piano went to Steinway for the board replacement--sometime mid-century. They're quite flat-topped at this point as the piano got a lot of use. To your initial question about putting modern hammers on this piano. Well, perhaps strange to say, I view this as a "modern" piano. Steinway frikkin' got it right way back then. So I have no issue.
@@insidepianos Awesome question dude. You are a guru and angel for serious musicians. OK so Abel offers 4 hammers types, soft, medium, hard and "natural". From their photos, the "natural" looks like it could be too soft (not workable with needles/intonation). I would start with medium but..... ....I did exactly what you suggested, and I approached a technician with the "no questions asked" paradigm. ..but I did asked if i could get A4, first, in all four hammers to hear the difference. The technician agreed to ask. If they are unbored samples, fine, I would be happy to bore all 4 myself to hear what is going on there.... Anyway, based on your 1914 Chickoring, there is no piano (assuming you dont want a metalic-on-glass-sounding new piano) that can touch the magic of an old, overstrung, metal harp grand with new hammers. Get the word out, put new hammers on old grands.
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Very excited to see your progress on this as well as the epoxy repair on the soundboard
Yeah, sorry to be so slow on that. The repair went really well though and I got some good footage. Just have to get around to editing.
I restored an 1883 Steinway Model A, but made different choices. Steinway has extensively researched soundboard cracks, and concludes they have no impact on sound. So I cleaned up the soundboard, and rebuilt all wippens and hammershanks...and replaced all felt, but after completion desired a more powerful tone so fit Steinway B hammershanks and hammerheads, each hand shaped as the felt is denser and hammerheads a bit larger. Only Steinway parts were used. Case was simply polished out. I mention these things only to suggest that the are many approaches to old Steinway restoration. I made 387 videos, showing all work on the TH-cam channel, Restoring An Old Steinway Piano.
Congratulations on your restoration! I wish I could see the videos but I was unable to locate them on your channel.
I admire your approach which I might call a “hobbyist’s” approach. This is not to imply any lack of skill compared to a professional but only to say that those in the business of selling or restoring pianos for profit have to watch the hours spent in such a project. In my situation, rebuilding the original parts isn’t feasible.
As I mentioned, I will be using Renner action parts. However, since they first video I have decided to go with Steinway hammers rather than Ronsen Bacon felt. I’m convinced the latter would have been beautiful but so will Steinways, and having them will be a selling point.
Regarding cracks, I often preach the good news that they are not as damning as people fear and often have no consequence to the sound. My A, however, had some serious rib separation, and that IS a problem. There’s no reason not to repair the cracks as well while the plate is out, for aesthetics, salability, and potential gains (even if slight) in energy transfer.
Please provide a link to a video of your Steinway if you don’t mind. I’d love to check it out.
I've rebuilt several Steinways of this era and some even older. I keep the original soundboard and fix what is there. Its just great aged wood that gives the piano a great sound. I have seen other Steinways with new Bolduc soundboards and yes they sound ok but there is still a quality that is missing - they are a bit lifeless. But to the untrained ear they sound fine. Curious to know does this have the extra bridge in the low tenor. I forget when Steinway discontinued this practice. I would mention from experience that you should replace the agraffes on this old of a piano. You never know when one will break from mental fatigue. Your choice of hammers sounds good. I have never used them but imagine it will give the piano a very warm sound. My go to hammers have been Abel cold pressing which have served me well. My 1916 Steinway M has them and its a great sound - of course I've voice them to what I like. Looking forward to upcoming videos on this piano.
Hi Don, nice to hear your experience. I'm so excited to hear how this piano turns out! As I mention in the video the board is from the middle of the century--replaced by Steinway--not original. But it seems to be a good sounding one even with (and now I'm spoiling my next video) a sizable rib separation. I do wonder if there is some "magic" from older Steinway eras that can't be replicated. I optimistically hope that the new Bolduc boards will ripen with the benefit of time. After all, I find many new Steinways to be a bit lacking in soul while sounding, as you say, "fine".
Definitely replacing those agraffes, especially since back then they used the 3/8" diameter threading, not 1/4"!
I hear Abel naturals and Ronsen are in the same world, so great minds...
No separate tenor bridge.
Thanks for watching!
Looking forward to participate on this journey👍🏼
I’ll be happy to have you along, Staffan!
Very cool Ben, good luck. One thing about these old pianos that concerns me is the life of the soundboard. Although this one was replaced in the 30s, it's still 90 years old and beyond the useful life of most soundboards. I imagine the wood fibers have lost a lot of their springiness. How do you assess whether the soundboard is still OK and has decent longevity remaining? I too am interested in the epoxy technique, especially what Del Fandrich talks about as a way to stiffen an old board. I wonder what would happen if an old board is sanded down to open up the pores and make it thinner and lighter, then flooded with thin epoxy to stiffen the wood fibers, and maybe even add another layer on top to make it almost like a carbon fiber soundboard. I guess you'd have to find an epoxy that has the right hardness and acoustic properties. It would be great to have a soundboard treatment that works as well as a new board, and not require the major surgery of taking out the old board. Look forward to seeing your progress!
Hi Emery, I’m appreciate you weighing in. Regarding soundboard longevity, I’ve long heard one can think of boards going through three 40-yr stages. In the first 40 years the board “ripens” or “sweetens” (though it’s the loudest when brand new and the most pressurized). The next 40 years are a plateau during which the quality of sound is stable. Then begins a 40-year decent into non-utility. :-(
(Now, of course many factors come into play-build quality, climate, care received, etc.)
So you’re right that we’re pushing it with this piano. But the sound! It clearly has lots of life in it (as does my 1924 Chickering with the original un-repaired board).
Also, to clarify, the _patent_ is from the late 30s. The board could be from a decade or two later. I doubt I’ll ever know. But the hope is that with the epoxy treatment we will catch the board near the end of its 2nd stage and preserve it longer than than the normal 40-year decline.
Stay tuned. In the next segment I’ll have John Johansen go over the epoxy procedure.
YAY BEN!
Thanks Tessa! I’m just trying to keep up with the neighbors...in Pennsylvania.
You are in North Carolina?
I am. Downtown Greensboro.
Is that a 5’ 10”?
About 6’ even.
Dude, I am so all over this.... ...really important point.... what do you think about putting modern hammers on this piano? I just had the worst experience here in Austria, I spent already 4 months trying to get new Renner hammers for my 1904 Boesendorfer. And I was denied by Renner USA, Renner Germany and Renner Austria. First off, they say that the vienna mechanic does not support new hammers, second, they refuse to sell to an indeividual, third, all of the local piano technicians refuse to do it. Now I have decided to do it myself, I took all the measurements myself and asked a technician here to order Abel hammers for me. The Boesendorfers from 1904 had leather over felt, that sound like crap. And my theory.... ...why I had to do this all "back door", because it sounds so good, if they let people put new hammers on their old boesendorfers they wont sell as many new ones. Agree? Here is the best I could do so far, this is with the old 1904 hammers, leather pulled off, and a thin fake-felt strip glued over the top.... it is almost what I want. But with new hammers, it will be golden.... th-cam.com/video/wKGyVh7kyTQ/w-d-xo.html
And by the way, that piano sound amazing!!!!!! What year do you guess the hammers are from?
And I should mention that Abel Germany also denied me. At this point I knew it was better to keep my piano make and year a secret, I almost got the hammers, then they cancelled saying that they will not sell to an individual. Feels like dealing with the mafia.
Wow Thomas! What's a man gotta do to get some hammuhs. (My Brooklyn accent is coming out.)
Seems you need to get with a technician and have them order to your specs _no questions asked_ . And you may be onto something. Here in the US, Steinway realizes their most formidable competitor is used Steinways. Would you be going with Abel 'naturals'?
I admire your self determination gluing those felt strips in place, my god! It is a captivating sound!
I'm glad you hear the Steinway's beauty. I think it's SUPER promising! I have every reason to believe they are Steinway hammers, probably dating from the time the piano went to Steinway for the board replacement--sometime mid-century. They're quite flat-topped at this point as the piano got a lot of use.
To your initial question about putting modern hammers on this piano. Well, perhaps strange to say, I view this as a "modern" piano. Steinway frikkin' got it right way back then. So I have no issue.
@@insidepianos Awesome question dude. You are a guru and angel for serious musicians. OK so Abel offers 4 hammers types, soft, medium, hard and "natural". From their photos, the "natural" looks like it could be too soft (not workable with needles/intonation). I would start with medium but..... ....I did exactly what you suggested, and I approached a technician with the "no questions asked" paradigm. ..but I did asked if i could get A4, first, in all four hammers to hear the difference. The technician agreed to ask. If they are unbored samples, fine, I would be happy to bore all 4 myself to hear what is going on there.... Anyway, based on your 1914 Chickoring, there is no piano (assuming you dont want a metalic-on-glass-sounding new piano) that can touch the magic of an old, overstrung, metal harp grand with new hammers. Get the word out, put new hammers on old grands.