I agree the female characters in Howard's End are fab. I love Terry Pratchett and he is so good at a female character, Susan is another example of that ☺
Very late to the party and this is a big stretch. Not easy to get hold of, because it's not a finished novel. But I'm thinking of Luthien from J. R. R. Tolkien's mythos. She's referred to several times in _The Lord of the Rings_ and there's a very tightly condensed version of her story in a single chapter of _The Silmarillion._ In long form, Tolkien wrote about her in a poem called _The Lay of Leithian,_ which he didn't finish; you can find it in some of the material his son published after his death (the _History of Middle-Earth_ collection). I have a habit of going on about this story at stupid length in comment threads, so I won't start doing that here. But honestly, well worth checking out.
The opposite to this: brilliantly written male characters by female authors. The most convincing example I can recall is Edith Wharton writing Newland Archer in The Age of Innocence. It's been a while since I read it, but I remember being very impressed at how Wharton managed to explore the nuances of a particular type of male mind. Highly recommended.
What are some fantastic and some unfortunate examples of male characterization by women authors, I wonder? Some of the best-written women characters I’ve read by male authors are Lucinda Lesplastrier in Oscar and Lucinda, Susan Burling Ward in Angle of Repose, and Oriel Lamb in Cloudstreet.
Well for the first question, you're better placed than me to pick out bad representation of men in female-authored books :P Thank you for the recommendations, I've not read or even heard of any of those books but will check them out!
That's an interesting question. I think if you were to pick up the majority of YA books, you'd get the manic pixie dream boy (kind of like the character Jesse from the film Pitch Perfect) or the brooding teenager who has no character traits despite being brooding. Maybe some of the Twilight characters. To be fair, I'm using examples of bad writing throughout, and it's not the male characters alone that are poorly rendered. The "bad boy" is so hilarious. So is the "soft boy" that I've seen lately: he's prevalent in Cathy Cassidy books (middle grade romance.) Those are laughably bad.
I feel Brandon Sanderson is another author who portrays strong female characters... Would like to know your thoughts about him... Most, if not all his book series(with special mention of Mistborn and Skyward) have female protagonists who are well etched out, I believe .
@@elizabethlussier4423 I have a dilemma with Sanderson. Apart from the fact that his heroines are absolute mary sue who have the power of gods, everyone wants them, everyone loves them, etc, I'm devastated about how Vin from a well-written, logical and realistic young woman we follow in The Final Empire, she turns into a 15-year-old straight from High School Drama in the Well of Ascension. It is as if the publisher forced the author to bow to American teenagers fascinated by the classic, high school romantic triangle straight from Twilight and the irrational emotionality of teenagers.
I was orphaned at a young age yet I'm not exactly "independent",I need to feel loved and protected,(within reason),to thrive. Living alone for a longer-term period of time is pure agony to me ,but I have met guys/men who feel the same. Trauma-& loneliness during childhood made me crave my own family even more.
Thank you for the video! I definitely have to read some of these books! It's a shame when authors (men or women) are struggling to write believable characters. I always have a hard time staying immersed in a book when that happens. I have three more authors from the top of my head who have a real talent for writing good characters in general (which definitely includes women). - A probably well known one is George R.R. Martin with his "A Song of Ice and Fire" series. You definitely won't like every character but I can't deny that they are well written. - Another great one is Phillip Pullman and his "His Dark Materials" trilogy. The protagonist is a young girl and throughout the story there is a wide array of side characters which all feel natural and most of them are rather likable as well. - Lasty one of my favorite authors at the moment Joe Abercrombie. Now I haven't read his first trilogy but most of his books are set in the same world like "Best served Cold" and "The Heroes". I absolutely adore his writing which is mostly gritty and rather bleak but his characters are all well thought through. And if you want something a little bit less dark he also wrote a YA trilogy set in a different world. It's called "The Shattered Sea" and is probably my favorite writing of his.
I agree with you on Lyra from His Dark Materials, but only in the first book. She became a weird character in my opinion, as soon as Will's perspective starts. In The Subtle Knife it feels like she's barely there.
You mentioned Pratchett - you could include almost any of his female characters from the later books. Also see: Sally Lockhart - from Philip Pullman's Ruby in the Smoke series. Amazingly atmospheric Victorian London, but in Tiger in the Well, we see Sally negotiating having to be a mother under extremely stressful circumstances (someone is trying to steal her child and they have the law on their side), whilst realising she's not very good at it. Ellie from Tomorrow When the War Began by John Marsden. A rough-as-guts rural teenager turns guerilla fighter when she and her friends are caught out in the bush when Australia is invaded. Runs the full gamut from wishing she'd thought to bring her teddy to dealing with the guilt of killing enemy soldiers, and the rage of seeing strangers living in her home and killing her friends. Offers a deep understanding of war and insurgency. Should be required reading in schools, but I'd never have heard of them if my mother (who's Aussie) hadn't been looking for books about Australia Those are two absolute knock-out series for female characters who are both extremely compelling and entirely believable. Notably, both authors used to be teachers of young teenagers. Their deep understanding of the ways kids - particularly girls - think has done them a huge favour in their writing.
My favourite five female characters by male authors are: Bathsheba Everdene (Far from the Madding Crowd), Eowyn (The Lord of the Rings), Marian Halcombe (Woman in White), Ursula Brangwen (Women in Love), and Miss Havisham (Great Expectation).
Women as ... human beings? What a concept! That's crazy! Only read the Ishiguro & I agree, people, each with their own motivations. I keep thinking of examples, & then I realize the author is a woman. I'll work on it. Two questions: any thoughts about the Bechdel test? Have you thought about doing the "international booktuber tag"? Really enjoyed this video & found some new books to look for ... nary a ripple in sight.
The Bechdel test is useful as one measure of female representation in media, but certainly not the only one, and it is a complex issue. There are of course many books and authors with really bad female representation that I enjoy very much (looking at you, Arthur Conan Doyle...), and plenty of examples where it is entirely justified by the story that women just don'e appear in it (Robinson Crusoe, for example) but it really bothers me when women are just written badly for no reason other than casual, almost incidental misogyny. Also I will do the International Booktuber Tag at some point, I really enjoy watching it :)
EM Forster is incredible at writing people and particularly women I think, I love how every one of his characters is changeable and flawed. With Dickens I always felt he didn't work out how to write real female characters until his last book Our Mutual Friend, which is my favourite of his. But I totally agree about Nancy, I obviously need to read Oliver Twist again as I don't even remember the character of Rose! I've only read one Thomas Hardy so I don't know about the rest of his books but Bathsheba from Far From the Madding was amazingly written. Although I haven't got along with all of his books I think Ian McEwan writes great female characters, Richard Yates with Revolutionary Road and Evelyn Waugh with Brideshead Revisited are a couple of others that come to mind as well.
Ooh, lots of authors to put on my to-read list. Thank you for the recommendation! I definitely want to explore more Dickens & Hardy, and have just added Revolutionary Road and Brideshead Revisited to my modern classics to-read list. Thank you for all of the recommendations!
I've not even read one of these books, but this is a wonderful series, Claudia. It's a shame that with anything feminist, someone will come up in the comments and be rude (instead of just ignore the video if they so violently disagree with feminism) but it's great that you continue. After all, the discussion is important. Pratchett is someone I've been meaning to get to for years, bless his soul. My friend adores his books for their humour and originality. I've heard that The Colour of Magic is a good place to start with him. Which book would you recommend?
I've only read about ten of the Discworld books, but I would not recommend starting with The Colour of Magic. It is the first one to be published chronologically, but the style and tone are so different to the other books, and it's just not very good. You should have a look at the different series within the Discworld universe, pick one that speaks to you and start with the first book of that series. For example, I really like the witches books (the first one is Equal Rites), the ones about Death (starting with Mort), and the ones about the City Watch (Guards! Guards!), but there are many to pick from. Jean Menzies did a really good video about where to start with Discworld a few years ago.
@@SpinstersLibrary awesome, thank you. I'll look them all up and decide on something. I'm glad to get your input, since the Pratchett fans i met seem to have so much love for all of his books. Thanks again. :)
I've never read Oliver Twist but I loved hearing you describe the female characters and it's definitely piqued my interest. I agree well-developed female characters don't have to be revolutionaries to be important! I just finished Daniel Jose Older's Dactyl Hill Squad, and I think Magdayls was written really well! I've heard that the Mistborn series by Brandon Sanderson doesn't have great female characterization, but I haven't picked it up yet. What I *have* read from him has had really good women! Especially Vivenna in Warbreaker. She's not the typical "spunky rule-breaker" archetype--not that there's anything wrong with that, but as you said it's nice to have female characters who don't always rebel in obvious ways. Great video, Claudia!
100% agree about Red Sister (and I enjoyed Grey Sister even more). We see such an array of characters, which I just really appreciate. There are so few fantasy works featuring a primarily femme cast.
I enjoyed this! I have added Red Sister and Howards End to my TBR list. I will need to go through my goodreads to see if I can come up with any male authors with well rounded female characters. What a great topic! :)
Thank you! I hope you enjoy those two books when you get to them :) and let me know if you have any recommendations for me - it took me quite a while to come up with my five, and I was surprised by the amount of classics in it (only two of the books I mentioned are from this century)
@@SpinstersLibrary I would like to hear your thought on My Grandmother Asked Me To Tell You She's Sorry and Britt-Marie Was Here both by Fredrik Backman. I love how he builds up his characters and in these 2 novels the protagonist are female. :)
I have really enjoyed Alastair Reynolds's 'Revenger' series. The protagonists are sisters, and the main villain of Book 1 is a woman. I thought they were excellently characterised.
I hope it's not too weird to leave a comment on a 5yr old video, but I've only recently discovered your channel and this is a great topic for a video. I enjoyed listening to your selections - a very nice mix. When it comes to female authors writing male characters well, I can think of loads of examples just from what I've read this year - books by Tana French, Daphne du Maurier, Jane Harper, Danya Kukafka and Louise Doughty. But it does require a lot more thought to think of men writing women well. But after a little thought I've three names for you - and I've read all of these authors in the last twelve months. Will Dean. He's a mystery/thriller writer - not the sort of books you generally talk about from what I've seen of your channel so far, but I like him a great deal. All of his books thus far have featured a female protagonist, and his main series is the Tuva Moodyson series - she's a reporter on a local newspaper in Sweden. I think the first book is called Dark Pines. I think he writes her very well. She's deaf, and I think he takes a lot of care to portray this as carefully and respectfully and accurately as he can. And Tuva feels like a well-rounded and compelling character overall. He writes crime stories than can go to dark places, but there's warmth and empathy in his writing. My favourite of his is The Last Thing to Burn - a standalone novel, again with a fantastic female protagonist, a woman being held captive by her abusive husband. It's an extremely taut and tense book. Michel Faber. I reread a novella of his last year - The Hundred-and-Ninety-Nine Steps - and I loved it. It's very subtle, but also mysterious, and the protagonist - an archaeologist called Sian - feels to me to be a fabulously written character, with lots of subtle layers. One of his best known novels is The Crimson Petal and the White - it has a huge cast of characters, but I consider 19-year-old Sugar to be its protagonist. It's years since I read it, but it was one of my favourites - I plan on reading it again soon to see how it holds up. You may well have heard of this book - it's set in Victorian London, and Sugar is a young prostitute who wants to escape the life she's been forced into - it might sound a bit cliched but in practice Faber turns this story into something vibrant and colourful, and Sugar feels to me like a unique, formidable character. And just one more - at the end of last year I read Small Mercies by Dennis Lehane - an explosively brilliant crime thriller. It has a more masculine feel to it than the other books I've mentioned. It's set in Boston 1974 and the protagonist is an Irish-American woman called Mary Pat Fennessey - and oh my word, what a character. The whole book is brilliant and I particularly like how Lehane doesn't seek to idealise Mary Pat - she's a phenomenal character, and he writes her warts-and-all; we sympathise with her, we're rooting for her, but he doesn't shy away from writing the unpleasant parts of her personality. I loved this book, thought it was phenomenally powerful. Sorry this is long and sloppily written! I enjoyed the video and I enjoyed trying to think of well-written female characters by male authors - it's not easy! I'm relatively new to your channel and I look forward to checking out more of your videos.
Oh my goodness THANK YOU for this, I see so many videos saying how bad male authors are, honestly they can be really good and they like it! Doing videos against something they love to bring them down doesn’t sound right to me. I saw a male author the other day and he said he’s happier than he ever was before he started to write. I feel like those videos saying ‘Male authors are bad,’ or whatever are bigots.
Great video! I love three of these books and need to read more... Interesting to hear your thoughts on Oliver Twist - I think Nancy's a fascinating character, but I've never found Rose that interesting. I'll be interested to hear what you think of later Dickens novels too if you get to them - the female characters in Little Dorrit, Dombey and Son and Our Mutual Friend are all great! :) Would also recommend The Odd Women by Gissing, The Woodlanders or The Return of The Native by Hardy, and The Way We Live Now by Trollope, for some other Victorian ones!
I definitely want to explore more Charles Dickens, as well as Hardy and Trollope (can't wait for Victober to really get into those kind of books again!) Thank you for the recommendations for specific books!
It's always good to have a outward visual idea of what sort of female/young character you're writing for, becuase their physical quality is arguably more crucial to their definition as characters than the written word is. Sometimes you don't know exactly what to expect with them because you're mainly concerned with the plot and how the character comes into the plot without a firm visual idea of the character, which one is inclined to leave to a seperate department and the spark of the actress who carries the role, which as I see it has even more of a pivotal part to play in the character's effect on the audience. This is also why one might be left with the impression, as I have been, that the potential of female characters, especially in male-dominated plot scenarios, was lacking. I figured this because I generally like to first use a visual reference and sketch it down as a base for a character, and then work the story around my findings attached to said reference; the advantage of course is that you know right from the get-go what it embodies as a character and how it might have a long-term effect on plot and audience reception. That's what I figured anyway. Regards, Samuel Farris.
His books are great, really hilarious and clever stories. I read one every few months or so, still nowhere near finishing the series but they're great light reads.
I agree with a lot of what your saying however I have a few points I would like to consider. 1st is that maybe a female character should be made a supporting character if the author doesn't feel they are comfortable writing a believable female character. 2nd is that I believe that readers and audience members of a story shouldn't care about the main character's gender, race, sexual orientation, religion..ext. The Wizard of Oz of my favorite book as a child and even when I saw Return to Oz on tv as a child, I would imagine myself in dorthys shoes and was inspired by her bravery. The fact that her gender was female made ZERO DIFFERENCE to me as a child. It's just stupid to limit your imagination around characters that you somehow feel you can identify either just because rheu share the same prodigious features as you. I am sick and tired of listening to how black people are somehow a minority in the US when over 20% of the US population is black. The definition of a minority should be legally less than 5% which I am definitely a minority because I'm part Porto Rican, Spanish from Spain, and part Native American. I believe more races should be portrayed in an offer for your story not to be racist. I swear I hate how Hollywood does stories now. If your story just has "white, black, Mexican, and Asian" then your story is racist because you dong get to just add a black guy pr a Mexican woman when there are so many of those people just in the united states alone. When did you see a porter Rican or any 3rf world county race have a main character of a story and not someone that gets killed as an unames extra?
Whenever I hear people complain about sexualized female characters, I just think about the countless romance books with shirtless men on them. Like... Is that sexualized?
This is great video. A bit older, but helpful. As a man who writes women, not only women, but lesbian women, it's definitely a challenge. For me, it's not a challenge in that I would otherwise write two-dimensional perfect characters. I have been completely surrounded my entire life by what would be an amazing cast of women. I have never had a woman in my life that was in personality even remotely similar to any of the others. The challenges come in the nuances of women's feelings which are frequently contradictory which then leads to some interesting moments. I try to stay away from western GL literature because at the moment it is more kabuki theater than real. A set of symbolic things representing one or more various struggles women have and are currently undergoing which always turns its romances into tragedies. I would be an imperfect vessel for telling that story. When done well, men writing women does not attempt to create the perfect woman in the eyes of men or women. It is also never going to create a truly real woman, it is always going to be an ever so slightly idealized version. When I look at most current literature, not only are the women frequently cartoon character versions of their real selves, but the men don't even make it to two dimensions, and that's true no matter whether its men or women writing them.
Ooh I've had Red Sister on my tbr for a minute, but it's so good to hear you love it. That definitely makes me more excited to read it. I've also been wanting to read some Pratchett, so I may see if I can start with the Witches. I can't think of any books written by men with well written female characters off the top of my head. I'm sure there are some, but I gravitate so heavily toward female authors. I've been thinking about this a fair amount because I've been rereading The Virgin Suicides by Jeffrey Eugenides, and the issue of the male gaze is essentially the central focus of that book. But I haven't been able to decide if it's intentional and well done or not.
Yeah, I've had ambiguous feelings towards The Virgin Suicides. The concept is good, but the execution just didn't work out in my opinion. The book could have been a really clever comment and discussion and analysis of the male gaze, and instead it ended up being just, well, the male gaze.
Nat Cassidy writes female characters really well. You should check out his book Mary: An Awakening of Terror. It's an incredible debut. New Subscriber here. 😊 Love your content. ✌🏻
I've only read the first 2 books of the series, but sabriel and Lirael of the abhorsen trilogy are both well written with girls as the main leads (at least for a large part). Another is Jonathan L. Howard's Johannes Cabal. The women are fewer in there, unfortunately, but the ones written are written as equally well as any male characters.
Eric Jerome Dickey, I have read only one of his books, the Other Woman. The main character is a female lead first person. Very interesting. Take a look.
I love _Howard's End_ . I think the relationship between the first Mrs. Wilcox and Margaret Schlegel (the second Mrs. Wilcox) makes the novel. Mrs. Wilcox, in her own subtle, passive aggressive way, rebels against Mr. Wilcox in a way that predicts Margaret Schlegel's willingness to confront Mr. Wilcox later. Also, Mrs. Wilcox and the two Schlegel women are much stronger than any of the male characters. Mr. Wilcox, Charles (?) Wilcox (the son), and Mr. Bass are all weak. Mr. Wilcox is afraid to show his emotion, he son is determined to live up to his father's expectations so much he isnt really a his own person, and Mr. Bass is too easily led, to romantic too survive. All these men depend on the strength of the women in their lives. The Schlegel sisters may fail to achieve their vision of life completely, but in the end they do succeed on some level on their own terms.
You perfectly described what I love about the way the women in Howards End are portrayed - especially Mrs Schlegel (the first) is such a fascinating character, and her way of tiny little rebellions, all within the social constraints of her position, really ring true of the way women are able to exert influence and make change happen even when they are not given any real power by the men in their lives.
I’m a male writer writing as a female author, but I’ve been told that it feels like it reads like it’s a male author, even though the characters have both masculine and feminine traits. Some of the female characters do things that are inappropriate and some of the female characters can be quite aggressive in their interactions, although I don’t think this is necessarily just a gender trait. It’s actually a really interesting piece of feedback and one that I’d love to get thoughts and opinions on. What are the main differences between how male and female authors write?
It sounds like what might really help you is to read lots of books written by women and actively pay attention to their characterisations, maybe take some notes on things you notice and how it differs from your writing.
I don't know. I have read plenty of books with female characters that are well written without having to actively look for it. Maybe we should read more books, just saying~
Hey, miss. I have a bit of a predicament. I like to write my female character as a competent swordsman in a low medieval fantasy story (fictional land and history but no magic or surreal creatures). Recently, however, there has been arguments about whether or not women sword fighters can be as good as men due to strength disparities (forgive me for mentioning. Even as a guy myself, I am frustrated of inequalities). My sister tells me that I shouldn't have to worry about every aspect of realism as it is my fiction and I can write what I want and inspire others. What do you make of this?
So there's two different issues here: firstly, your assumption that women can't sword fight as well as men is not quite right. Sure, women on average don't have the same upper body strength as men on average, but sword fighting is not just brute strength but mainly technique and training. So if your female character has had opportunity and training, she can totally be as good or better than any male fighter. Secondly, I agree with your sister: fantasy is word exploring things that are missing in the real world.
@@SpinstersLibrary Thank you for responding, miss. Indeed, swordsmanship is not about brute force. As someone who has some knowledge of HEMA, swords are light and what matters is technique. It's just that there is this arguing going on where many detractors say that in all else equal matchups, men would dominate due to being stronger (some also say other physical attributes such as better reaction times, though I'm not 100% sure if women can't also improve to the point of having the same level cap). I like to think that even as a disadvantage, one can overcome. I also am aware that female swordsmen have existed such as Julie d'aubigny. With this arguing going on, it makes me conflicted. True that fantasy is meant to be a break from reality. Real life is not always consistently logical as weird things happen (some frustrating, some cool (like MadJack of ww2), some...bizarre). No wonder truth is stranger than fiction
@@SpinstersLibrary Also, I didn't mean to give the impressionthat I assumed women can't swordfight. I only said some argued that they can't possibly be as good as men. I was simply conflicted when it comes to writing female swordsmen in fantasy while trying to have some realism in it. My apologies if I gave the impression that I looked down upon women. As an egalitarian, I want both men and women to be happy and reach their potential and dreams. Sometimes, I am not good at talking.
I can recommend the books of Theodor Fontane, like Effi Briest or Frau Jenny Treibel. The other one I like is Henrik Ibsen, like Hedda Gabler or Die Frau vom Meer (I don't know the english titles). Both we're interestet in the Relations between man an women.
Ah, I remember reading Effie Briest in school and actually quite enjoying it. I should check out some of his other works. I've not yet read any Ibsen, but I'll ad him to my list. Thank you for the recommendations!
Your arguments are absolutely nonsensical I'm sorry. A male author writes a male protagonist if course the protagonist is likely to be the default character and the main POV / Experience. A woman as a side character doesn't have any more value than a male side character. This idea that every character 3sp of they are women or some marginalized group has to had a fully fleshed out back story and motivations is hilariously short sighted. Sometimes people are nothing more than a plot device. Even in real life. Sometimes you meet a person she or he causes some stuff to start rolling / creates a chain of events and you never really see them or care about them again. I see female readers complain so often about unrealistic female portrayals on books. Meanwhile the most popular female read genres are abusive relationships between 16 year old shy virgin Mary sues and much older guys or the "strong girl super hero, undefeatable vampire witch" who hates every other girl and calls her classmate a slat for having kissed her own boyfriend in public that one time. Meanwhile it's ok that she has a gang bang with bad boy professor vanpiricus ... It's ok because she was under a powerful bloodspell .. but she can't 2ait to do it again tonight. Yes obviously women are much better at writing women (ps excuse the sarcasm but i do actually believe women are better, of course they are. They have the experience of growing up a WOMAN" . Which is also why 70% of the content at "r/menwritingwomen" is just women writing smut, attributed to men somehow. And 20% is intentionally taken out of context to make the writer look bad. Anyway. The reason this frustrates me so is because NO PERSON is the same. Hence any character no matter how dumb, hypocritical or nonsensical exists somewhere. Yet 1. Seductive temptress or a nymphomaniac .. nope can't do that that's sexist because those girls obviously don't exist. The fact that I've known girls like that irl I've known girls who used their appearance to get what they want. Somehow doesn't matter 2. Woman is attractive. Nope can't do that attractive women don't exist and are UNREALISTIC. 3. Women is feminine. Nope can't do that that's sexist 4. Can't have ANY form of SA because that might trigger someone and obviously that doesn't EVEr happen in real life. At least we gotta pretend it doesn't. Don't go to the root cause bo let's pretend it doesn't exist that .. works and will surely solve the issues. Ah a bandit who threathened to SA one of his victims. That would NEVER happen .. such a dirty male fantasy. Probably just the writer living out his fantasies. Using women as a plot device. To elicit emotions ... Which is totally not .. what a book is about. you're only ever supposed to be affirmed, loved, supporter and happy while reading a book. You shouldn't ever think. Complex characters that aren't like you don't exist because everyone thinks like you obviously and if they don't well they should because they are wrong Etc etc. There is no pleasing everyone. I'm sure there have been written critiques and long angry comments about the women you thought were written well by men. Etc etc etc. My point is. If you pick up a book with a clear protagonist. Don't be surprised his love interest or sister or whatever the fk isn't as fleshed out and doesn't have her own motivations and goals etc etc. How many fkn people do you people even know that have actual goals and motivations. Most people cruise by in life. Listen sometimes it becomes very obvious that the writer is beingxreepy or that this girl is unrealistically constantly hitting on his obnoxious self insert etc. But in the majority of cases. This whole "men writing women" is a hilariously bad take by people who seem to live in an extremely limited bubble and haven't met anyone outside of their normal of values
Well, you can't blame male writers. They can't write stories with only male characters. And men don't know what it is to be a woman like a woman does. So, male written female characters may, many times, feel somewhat stereotypical. But it's great for male writers to see what the woman's perspective is on the issue.
Sure but I would suggest that most writers also don't know what it is to be a serial killer, or a wizard, or the secret heir to the throne. All it takes for a male writer to write a good female character is to see beyond one's biases and prejudices and listen to the voices of women. It's not rocket science.
Do you think serial killers would approve to how they are portrayed in novels? Same way us other men probably sometimes miss nuonces in women characters written by men us non serial killers probably miss the nuonces in serial killer characters written by non seriel killers…
Well. alright.Some guys like Lewis Black can get attacked for agreeing with people. I think some authors do cautionary tales to show, not tell, the futility of error. But since You asked.; Irving Wallace. The Celestial Bed. The Fan Club. The Second Lady. The Seven Minutes.The Three Sirens. You can tell me what is wrong. He can point out why.
There is very little to go on in this rambling video to explicate what meant by well written female characters. Next time you try something like this Miss, try to provide a plethora of examples and contrasting points of what could have & in other books often is lacking in female character development. To give solidity of perspective regarding your understanding of character design being well executed.
4:27 "grows up as a novice"? You mean as an oblate? Two categories of professed monks and nuns - conversi and oblati (for the masculine, obviously -ae in feminine). The conversi have a novitiate. The oblati get an education in the monastery. Either way one is free to leave, instead of making the vows. Convents are for orders with only conversi, so, if a character grows up there, she is, a) an oblate rather than a novice, and b) living in a monastery, not in a convent. Obviously, the author could very well be getting the Catholic setting slightly wrong and the female characters perfectly right. _w a i t_ - the setting is not mundane? OK, makes sense, not actual real life Catholic settings, then!
You know what no one ever discusses? Male characters written by women. Know why? Because men aren’t busy problematizing those characters. ...But we can. Harry Potter doesn’t act like a teenage boy. He’s almost entirely sexless. He doesn’t seek bonding with other boys or seek out adult men. He acts like a woman imagines a teenage boy acts. But guess what? Close enough, and I’m not throwing myself on a cross about it. “But I don’t hear men complaining about the way Harry was written.” Yep, because we aren’t concerned with nitpicking. Or how about Ayn Rand? Her men only have sex drives when the heroine arrives. How convenient! It’s like the fantasy of a teenage girl! This great guy doesn’t have sex ever, except with ME! I could go on about Rand, but she’s my favorite author and her inaccuracy is trivial to the theme. The fact is that women are equally bad at writing men, but you only ever hear about this kind of issue from malcontent women. Guess what! Women ALSO write bad women and men write bad men! It’s almost as if there’s NOT a cultural bias against women. It’s almost as if men and women are humsns who do their best to illustrate their experience... And maybe feminists should get off the cross...and write a MALE character so the world can examine it for authenticity. But god, gatekeeping on who writes women well? Come on. I have YET to read a female novelist who writes a male character that makes total sense. But the journey is the intellectual stretch - I’m so happy ANY writer takes a swing at presenting a character. The attitude of standing on a pedestal and demanding an author fundamentally nail your twenty point criterion for a genuine female character smacks of narcissism. How much literature and art have you or will you be deprived of because you’re micromanaging an author precisely because he has XY chromosomes? Do you really think the best way to absorb art is to obsess over this kind of thing? Recommending a book based on this criterion is ridiculous. Come On.
Your comment would be far more effective if it was written politely. Ranting and insulting people doesn't help your case, even if it is completely valid (which I think it is).
The book that came straight to my mind was The Book Thief by Markus Zusak. The main character, Liesel, was so engaging and believable.
No kidding!! That is my favorite book of all time, partially because I identify so strongly with Liesl as a character.
Proof that females can be written perfectly without being strong or sexualised.
I love how all the good women in fiction literally just boil down to "This character had an actual personality and goals in life!"
The bar is low 😅
As a male writer, I promise you that I'll try my best to help in expanding this list!
I agree the female characters in Howard's End are fab. I love Terry Pratchett and he is so good at a female character, Susan is another example of that ☺
Terry Pratchett's books definitely don't get the attention they deserve, they are so well written and really groundbreaking in some ways.
George double R Martin's female characters are realistic
George double R Martin...
I can't say you're 'too lazy' to put another R lol
Very late to the party and this is a big stretch. Not easy to get hold of, because it's not a finished novel. But I'm thinking of Luthien from J. R. R. Tolkien's mythos. She's referred to several times in _The Lord of the Rings_ and there's a very tightly condensed version of her story in a single chapter of _The Silmarillion._ In long form, Tolkien wrote about her in a poem called _The Lay of Leithian,_ which he didn't finish; you can find it in some of the material his son published after his death (the _History of Middle-Earth_ collection). I have a habit of going on about this story at stupid length in comment threads, so I won't start doing that here. But honestly, well worth checking out.
The opposite to this: brilliantly written male characters by female authors. The most convincing example I can recall is Edith Wharton writing Newland Archer in The Age of Innocence. It's been a while since I read it, but I remember being very impressed at how Wharton managed to explore the nuances of a particular type of male mind. Highly recommended.
Peter Walsh from Mrs Dalloway is also an amazingly rendered male character by a woman author imo
I'm trying to get better at writing women myself, and since I've read Never Let Me Go and Oliver Twist, these examples helped. Thanks!
Glad this was helpful! Good luck with your writing, and make sure to read plenty of women authors too
@@SpinstersLibrary Thanks! And I will continue reading women for sure! It's helped a lot too
What are some fantastic and some unfortunate examples of male characterization by women authors, I wonder?
Some of the best-written women characters I’ve read by male authors are Lucinda Lesplastrier in Oscar and Lucinda, Susan Burling Ward in Angle of Repose, and Oriel Lamb in Cloudstreet.
Well for the first question, you're better placed than me to pick out bad representation of men in female-authored books :P
Thank you for the recommendations, I've not read or even heard of any of those books but will check them out!
I’ll have to give it some thought. 🤔
That's an interesting question. I think if you were to pick up the majority of YA books, you'd get the manic pixie dream boy (kind of like the character Jesse from the film Pitch Perfect) or the brooding teenager who has no character traits despite being brooding. Maybe some of the Twilight characters. To be fair, I'm using examples of bad writing throughout, and it's not the male characters alone that are poorly rendered. The "bad boy" is so hilarious. So is the "soft boy" that I've seen lately: he's prevalent in Cathy Cassidy books (middle grade romance.) Those are laughably bad.
I feel Brandon Sanderson is another author who portrays strong female characters... Would like to know your thoughts about him... Most, if not all his book series(with special mention of Mistborn and Skyward) have female protagonists who are well etched out, I believe .
I've not read any Sanderson yet, but I've heard a lot of good things about his books. Definitely one to explore for me!
@@SpinstersLibrary I've read Mistborn (only the first of the trilogy) and yes I think that you will appreciate the lead female caracter.
@@elizabethlussier4423
I have a dilemma with Sanderson. Apart from the fact that his heroines are absolute mary sue who have the power of gods, everyone wants them, everyone loves them, etc, I'm devastated about how Vin from a well-written, logical and realistic young woman we follow in The Final Empire, she turns into a 15-year-old straight from High School Drama in the Well of Ascension. It is as if the publisher forced the author to bow to American teenagers fascinated by the classic, high school romantic triangle straight from Twilight and the irrational emotionality of teenagers.
@@deejay554 Literally nothing you said at the beginning is true
@@hugoortiz8630 I respect your right to have an opinion.
I was orphaned at a young age yet I'm not exactly "independent",I need to feel loved and protected,(within reason),to thrive. Living alone for a longer-term period of time is pure agony to me ,but I have met guys/men who feel the same.
Trauma-& loneliness during childhood made me crave my own family even more.
Thank you for the video! I definitely have to read some of these books!
It's a shame when authors (men or women) are struggling to write believable characters. I always have a hard time staying immersed in a book when that happens.
I have three more authors from the top of my head who have a real talent for writing good characters in general (which definitely includes women).
- A probably well known one is George R.R. Martin with his "A Song of Ice and Fire" series. You definitely won't like every character but I can't deny that they are well written.
- Another great one is Phillip Pullman and his "His Dark Materials" trilogy. The protagonist is a young girl and throughout the story there is a wide array of side characters which all feel natural and most of them are rather likable as well.
- Lasty one of my favorite authors at the moment Joe Abercrombie. Now I haven't read his first trilogy but most of his books are set in the same world like "Best served Cold" and "The Heroes". I absolutely adore his writing which is mostly gritty and rather bleak but his characters are all well thought through. And if you want something a little bit less dark he also wrote a YA trilogy set in a different world. It's called "The Shattered Sea" and is probably my favorite writing of his.
I agree with you on Lyra from His Dark Materials, but only in the first book. She became a weird character in my opinion, as soon as Will's perspective starts. In The Subtle Knife it feels like she's barely there.
You mentioned Pratchett - you could include almost any of his female characters from the later books. Also see:
Sally Lockhart - from Philip Pullman's Ruby in the Smoke series. Amazingly atmospheric Victorian London, but in Tiger in the Well, we see Sally negotiating having to be a mother under extremely stressful circumstances (someone is trying to steal her child and they have the law on their side), whilst realising she's not very good at it.
Ellie from Tomorrow When the War Began by John Marsden. A rough-as-guts rural teenager turns guerilla fighter when she and her friends are caught out in the bush when Australia is invaded. Runs the full gamut from wishing she'd thought to bring her teddy to dealing with the guilt of killing enemy soldiers, and the rage of seeing strangers living in her home and killing her friends. Offers a deep understanding of war and insurgency. Should be required reading in schools, but I'd never have heard of them if my mother (who's Aussie) hadn't been looking for books about Australia
Those are two absolute knock-out series for female characters who are both extremely compelling and entirely believable. Notably, both authors used to be teachers of young teenagers. Their deep understanding of the ways kids - particularly girls - think has done them a huge favour in their writing.
My favourite five female characters by male authors are: Bathsheba Everdene (Far from the Madding Crowd), Eowyn (The Lord of the Rings), Marian Halcombe (Woman in White), Ursula Brangwen (Women in Love), and Miss Havisham (Great Expectation).
Granny Weatherwax is my favorite character in all of fiction
Great topic, good video. Thank you. Hugs & sunshine 🌞 N
Thank you :)
Women as ... human beings? What a concept! That's crazy! Only read the Ishiguro & I agree, people, each with their own motivations. I keep thinking of examples, & then I realize the author is a woman. I'll work on it. Two questions: any thoughts about the Bechdel test? Have you thought about doing the "international booktuber tag"? Really enjoyed this video & found some new books to look for ... nary a ripple in sight.
The Bechdel test is useful as one measure of female representation in media, but certainly not the only one, and it is a complex issue. There are of course many books and authors with really bad female representation that I enjoy very much (looking at you, Arthur Conan Doyle...), and plenty of examples where it is entirely justified by the story that women just don'e appear in it (Robinson Crusoe, for example) but it really bothers me when women are just written badly for no reason other than casual, almost incidental misogyny.
Also I will do the International Booktuber Tag at some point, I really enjoy watching it :)
Yay!
EM Forster is incredible at writing people and particularly women I think, I love how every one of his characters is changeable and flawed. With Dickens I always felt he didn't work out how to write real female characters until his last book Our Mutual Friend, which is my favourite of his. But I totally agree about Nancy, I obviously need to read Oliver Twist again as I don't even remember the character of Rose! I've only read one Thomas Hardy so I don't know about the rest of his books but Bathsheba from Far From the Madding was amazingly written. Although I haven't got along with all of his books I think Ian McEwan writes great female characters, Richard Yates with Revolutionary Road and Evelyn Waugh with Brideshead Revisited are a couple of others that come to mind as well.
Ooh, lots of authors to put on my to-read list. Thank you for the recommendation! I definitely want to explore more Dickens & Hardy, and have just added Revolutionary Road and Brideshead Revisited to my modern classics to-read list. Thank you for all of the recommendations!
I've not even read one of these books, but this is a wonderful series, Claudia. It's a shame that with anything feminist, someone will come up in the comments and be rude (instead of just ignore the video if they so violently disagree with feminism) but it's great that you continue. After all, the discussion is important.
Pratchett is someone I've been meaning to get to for years, bless his soul. My friend adores his books for their humour and originality. I've heard that The Colour of Magic is a good place to start with him. Which book would you recommend?
I've only read about ten of the Discworld books, but I would not recommend starting with The Colour of Magic. It is the first one to be published chronologically, but the style and tone are so different to the other books, and it's just not very good. You should have a look at the different series within the Discworld universe, pick one that speaks to you and start with the first book of that series. For example, I really like the witches books (the first one is Equal Rites), the ones about Death (starting with Mort), and the ones about the City Watch (Guards! Guards!), but there are many to pick from. Jean Menzies did a really good video about where to start with Discworld a few years ago.
@@SpinstersLibrary awesome, thank you. I'll look them all up and decide on something. I'm glad to get your input, since the Pratchett fans i met seem to have so much love for all of his books. Thanks again. :)
I've never read Oliver Twist but I loved hearing you describe the female characters and it's definitely piqued my interest. I agree well-developed female characters don't have to be revolutionaries to be important!
I just finished Daniel Jose Older's Dactyl Hill Squad, and I think Magdayls was written really well!
I've heard that the Mistborn series by Brandon Sanderson doesn't have great female characterization, but I haven't picked it up yet. What I *have* read from him has had really good women! Especially Vivenna in Warbreaker. She's not the typical "spunky rule-breaker" archetype--not that there's anything wrong with that, but as you said it's nice to have female characters who don't always rebel in obvious ways.
Great video, Claudia!
Thank you! Sanderson is one of those authors I've been meaning to read for a long time, so thank you for the recommendation for where to start :D
I really love and appreciate this! ❤️❤️❤️❤️
Thank you so much :)
100% agree about Red Sister (and I enjoyed Grey Sister even more). We see such an array of characters, which I just really appreciate. There are so few fantasy works featuring a primarily femme cast.
Yes, I'm really glad I came across that series!
I enjoyed this! I have added Red Sister and Howards End to my TBR list. I will need to go through my goodreads to see if I can come up with any male authors with well rounded female characters. What a great topic! :)
Thank you! I hope you enjoy those two books when you get to them :) and let me know if you have any recommendations for me - it took me quite a while to come up with my five, and I was surprised by the amount of classics in it (only two of the books I mentioned are from this century)
@@SpinstersLibrary I would like to hear your thought on My Grandmother Asked Me To Tell You She's Sorry and Britt-Marie Was Here both by Fredrik Backman. I love how he builds up his characters and in these 2 novels the protagonist are female. :)
I have really enjoyed Alastair Reynolds's 'Revenger' series. The protagonists are sisters, and the main villain of Book 1 is a woman. I thought they were excellently characterised.
I hope it's not too weird to leave a comment on a 5yr old video, but I've only recently discovered your channel and this is a great topic for a video. I enjoyed listening to your selections - a very nice mix.
When it comes to female authors writing male characters well, I can think of loads of examples just from what I've read this year - books by Tana French, Daphne du Maurier, Jane Harper, Danya Kukafka and Louise Doughty. But it does require a lot more thought to think of men writing women well. But after a little thought I've three names for you - and I've read all of these authors in the last twelve months.
Will Dean. He's a mystery/thriller writer - not the sort of books you generally talk about from what I've seen of your channel so far, but I like him a great deal. All of his books thus far have featured a female protagonist, and his main series is the Tuva Moodyson series - she's a reporter on a local newspaper in Sweden. I think the first book is called Dark Pines. I think he writes her very well. She's deaf, and I think he takes a lot of care to portray this as carefully and respectfully and accurately as he can. And Tuva feels like a well-rounded and compelling character overall. He writes crime stories than can go to dark places, but there's warmth and empathy in his writing. My favourite of his is The Last Thing to Burn - a standalone novel, again with a fantastic female protagonist, a woman being held captive by her abusive husband. It's an extremely taut and tense book.
Michel Faber. I reread a novella of his last year - The Hundred-and-Ninety-Nine Steps - and I loved it. It's very subtle, but also mysterious, and the protagonist - an archaeologist called Sian - feels to me to be a fabulously written character, with lots of subtle layers. One of his best known novels is The Crimson Petal and the White - it has a huge cast of characters, but I consider 19-year-old Sugar to be its protagonist. It's years since I read it, but it was one of my favourites - I plan on reading it again soon to see how it holds up. You may well have heard of this book - it's set in Victorian London, and Sugar is a young prostitute who wants to escape the life she's been forced into - it might sound a bit cliched but in practice Faber turns this story into something vibrant and colourful, and Sugar feels to me like a unique, formidable character.
And just one more - at the end of last year I read Small Mercies by Dennis Lehane - an explosively brilliant crime thriller. It has a more masculine feel to it than the other books I've mentioned. It's set in Boston 1974 and the protagonist is an Irish-American woman called Mary Pat Fennessey - and oh my word, what a character. The whole book is brilliant and I particularly like how Lehane doesn't seek to idealise Mary Pat - she's a phenomenal character, and he writes her warts-and-all; we sympathise with her, we're rooting for her, but he doesn't shy away from writing the unpleasant parts of her personality. I loved this book, thought it was phenomenally powerful.
Sorry this is long and sloppily written! I enjoyed the video and I enjoyed trying to think of well-written female characters by male authors - it's not easy! I'm relatively new to your channel and I look forward to checking out more of your videos.
Jim Fergus writes first-person female characters fantastically.
I was thinking of Trollope's Lizzy Eustace and Mann's Tony Buddenbrook.
Ah, another two classics authors I have yet to read! Thank you for the recommendations :)
@@SpinstersLibrary You're welcome. :-) (I will never stop recommending The Buddenbrooks) Theodor Fontane should also get an honorary mention.
The Poldark ladies are incredible examples. They made me continue the series
Oh my goodness
THANK YOU for this, I see so many videos saying how bad male authors are, honestly they can be really good and they like it! Doing videos against something they love to bring them down doesn’t sound right to me. I saw a male author the other day and he said he’s happier than he ever was before he started to write. I feel like those videos saying ‘Male authors are bad,’ or whatever are bigots.
A book from a pervious era that really depicts a great female character without all the modern, annoying tropes is Edna Ferber's "So Big."
Great video! I love three of these books and need to read more... Interesting to hear your thoughts on Oliver Twist - I think Nancy's a fascinating character, but I've never found Rose that interesting. I'll be interested to hear what you think of later Dickens novels too if you get to them - the female characters in Little Dorrit, Dombey and Son and Our Mutual Friend are all great! :) Would also recommend The Odd Women by Gissing, The Woodlanders or The Return of The Native by Hardy, and The Way We Live Now by Trollope, for some other Victorian ones!
I definitely want to explore more Charles Dickens, as well as Hardy and Trollope (can't wait for Victober to really get into those kind of books again!) Thank you for the recommendations for specific books!
It's always good to have a outward visual idea of what sort of female/young character you're writing for, becuase their physical quality is arguably more crucial to their definition as characters than the written word is. Sometimes you don't know exactly what to expect with them because you're mainly concerned with the plot and how the character comes into the plot without a firm visual idea of the character, which one is inclined to leave to a seperate department and the spark of the actress who carries the role, which as I see it has even more of a pivotal part to play in the character's effect on the audience. This is also why one might be left with the impression, as I have been, that the potential of female characters, especially in male-dominated plot scenarios, was lacking. I figured this because I generally like to first use a visual reference and sketch it down as a base for a character, and then work the story around my findings attached to said reference; the advantage of course is that you know right from the get-go what it embodies as a character and how it might have a long-term effect on plot and audience reception. That's what I figured anyway.
Regards, Samuel Farris.
I havent read any of this books but I will definitely add them to my tbr, specially Terry Pratchett, Ive been meaning to read him for such a long time
His books are great, really hilarious and clever stories. I read one every few months or so, still nowhere near finishing the series but they're great light reads.
It has been a long time since I read it but I remember Flora de Barral who is the lead in Joseph Conrad’s Chance as being realistic.
I agree with a lot of what your saying however I have a few points I would like to consider.
1st is that maybe a female character should be made a supporting character if the author doesn't feel they are comfortable writing a believable female character.
2nd is that I believe that readers and audience members of a story shouldn't care about the main character's gender, race, sexual orientation, religion..ext. The Wizard of Oz of my favorite book as a child and even when I saw Return to Oz on tv as a child, I would imagine myself in dorthys shoes and was inspired by her bravery. The fact that her gender was female made ZERO DIFFERENCE to me as a child. It's just stupid to limit your imagination around characters that you somehow feel you can identify either just because rheu share the same prodigious features as you. I am sick and tired of listening to how black people are somehow a minority in the US when over 20% of the US population is black. The definition of a minority should be legally less than 5% which I am definitely a minority because I'm part Porto Rican, Spanish from Spain, and part Native American. I believe more races should be portrayed in an offer for your story not to be racist. I swear I hate how Hollywood does stories now. If your story just has "white, black, Mexican, and Asian" then your story is racist because you dong get to just add a black guy pr a Mexican woman when there are so many of those people just in the united states alone. When did you see a porter Rican or any 3rf world county race have a main character of a story and not someone that gets killed as an unames extra?
Whenever I hear people complain about sexualized female characters, I just think about the countless romance books with shirtless men on them. Like... Is that sexualized?
I simply love your videos!
Thank you so much!
This is great video. A bit older, but helpful. As a man who writes women, not only women, but lesbian women, it's definitely a challenge. For me, it's not a challenge in that I would otherwise write two-dimensional perfect characters. I have been completely surrounded my entire life by what would be an amazing cast of women. I have never had a woman in my life that was in personality even remotely similar to any of the others. The challenges come in the nuances of women's feelings which are frequently contradictory which then leads to some interesting moments. I try to stay away from western GL literature because at the moment it is more kabuki theater than real. A set of symbolic things representing one or more various struggles women have and are currently undergoing which always turns its romances into tragedies. I would be an imperfect vessel for telling that story. When done well, men writing women does not attempt to create the perfect woman in the eyes of men or women. It is also never going to create a truly real woman, it is always going to be an ever so slightly idealized version. When I look at most current literature, not only are the women frequently cartoon character versions of their real selves, but the men don't even make it to two dimensions, and that's true no matter whether its men or women writing them.
Ooh I've had Red Sister on my tbr for a minute, but it's so good to hear you love it. That definitely makes me more excited to read it. I've also been wanting to read some Pratchett, so I may see if I can start with the Witches. I can't think of any books written by men with well written female characters off the top of my head. I'm sure there are some, but I gravitate so heavily toward female authors. I've been thinking about this a fair amount because I've been rereading The Virgin Suicides by Jeffrey Eugenides, and the issue of the male gaze is essentially the central focus of that book. But I haven't been able to decide if it's intentional and well done or not.
Yeah, I've had ambiguous feelings towards The Virgin Suicides. The concept is good, but the execution just didn't work out in my opinion. The book could have been a really clever comment and discussion and analysis of the male gaze, and instead it ended up being just, well, the male gaze.
Nat Cassidy writes female characters really well. You should check out his book Mary: An Awakening of Terror. It's an incredible debut.
New Subscriber here. 😊 Love your content. ✌🏻
I've only read the first 2 books of the series, but sabriel and Lirael of the abhorsen trilogy are both well written with girls as the main leads (at least for a large part).
Another is Jonathan L. Howard's Johannes Cabal. The women are fewer in there, unfortunately, but the ones written are written as equally well as any male characters.
Thank you, I've not heard of either of those books but they sound interestings!
Eric Jerome Dickey, I have read only one of his books, the Other Woman. The main character is a female lead first person. Very interesting. Take a look.
I love _Howard's End_ . I think the relationship between the first Mrs. Wilcox and Margaret Schlegel (the second Mrs. Wilcox) makes the novel. Mrs. Wilcox, in her own subtle, passive aggressive way, rebels against Mr. Wilcox in a way that predicts Margaret Schlegel's willingness to confront Mr. Wilcox later. Also, Mrs. Wilcox and the two Schlegel women are much stronger than any of the male characters. Mr. Wilcox, Charles (?) Wilcox (the son), and Mr. Bass are all weak. Mr. Wilcox is afraid to show his emotion, he son is determined to live up to his father's expectations so much he isnt really a his own person, and Mr. Bass is too easily led, to romantic too survive. All these men depend on the strength of the women in their lives.
The Schlegel sisters may fail to achieve their vision of life completely, but in the end they do succeed on some level on their own terms.
You perfectly described what I love about the way the women in Howards End are portrayed - especially Mrs Schlegel (the first) is such a fascinating character, and her way of tiny little rebellions, all within the social constraints of her position, really ring true of the way women are able to exert influence and make change happen even when they are not given any real power by the men in their lives.
I’m a male writer writing as a female author, but I’ve been told that it feels like it reads like it’s a male author, even though the characters have both masculine and feminine traits.
Some of the female characters do things that are inappropriate and some of the female characters can be quite aggressive in their interactions, although I don’t think this is necessarily just a gender trait.
It’s actually a really interesting piece of feedback and one that I’d love to get thoughts and opinions on.
What are the main differences between how male and female authors write?
It sounds like what might really help you is to read lots of books written by women and actively pay attention to their characterisations, maybe take some notes on things you notice and how it differs from your writing.
I actually like what she is saying about female characters. I bet you have never heard her complain about the way women write men.
I don't know. I have read plenty of books with female characters that are well written without having to actively look for it.
Maybe we should read more books, just saying~
My goal is to write an actual good female character without sexualising them but my artist wants to sexualise them
Tell your artist to respect wamen or get lost.
Find another artist then -_- i did when I cant have my former artist to stop s-xualizing my teen chars.
Hey, miss. I have a bit of a predicament. I like to write my female character as a competent swordsman in a low medieval fantasy story (fictional land and history but no magic or surreal creatures). Recently, however, there has been arguments about whether or not women sword fighters can be as good as men due to strength disparities (forgive me for mentioning. Even as a guy myself, I am frustrated of inequalities).
My sister tells me that I shouldn't have to worry about every aspect of realism as it is my fiction and I can write what I want and inspire others. What do you make of this?
So there's two different issues here: firstly, your assumption that women can't sword fight as well as men is not quite right. Sure, women on average don't have the same upper body strength as men on average, but sword fighting is not just brute strength but mainly technique and training. So if your female character has had opportunity and training, she can totally be as good or better than any male fighter.
Secondly, I agree with your sister: fantasy is word exploring things that are missing in the real world.
@@SpinstersLibrary Thank you for responding, miss.
Indeed, swordsmanship is not about brute force. As someone who has some knowledge of HEMA, swords are light and what matters is technique. It's just that there is this arguing going on where many detractors say that in all else equal matchups, men would dominate due to being stronger (some also say other physical attributes such as better reaction times, though I'm not 100% sure if women can't also improve to the point of having the same level cap). I like to think that even as a disadvantage, one can overcome. I also am aware that female swordsmen have existed such as Julie d'aubigny. With this arguing going on, it makes me conflicted.
True that fantasy is meant to be a break from reality. Real life is not always consistently logical as weird things happen (some frustrating, some cool (like MadJack of ww2), some...bizarre). No wonder truth is stranger than fiction
@@SpinstersLibrary Also, I didn't mean to give the impressionthat I assumed women can't swordfight. I only said some argued that they can't possibly be as good as men. I was simply conflicted when it comes to writing female swordsmen in fantasy while trying to have some realism in it.
My apologies if I gave the impression that I looked down upon women. As an egalitarian, I want both men and women to be happy and reach their potential and dreams. Sometimes, I am not good at talking.
No worries, I'm sure your female character will be awesome ☺️ good luck with your novel
I'm here cuz all my female characters are turning into dude bros and I dont know why 😂
I'm not an author so can't help you, but I hope this video was useful!
@@SpinstersLibrary it was
Any advise on writing women characters, for a man like me?
Oh, and are you Iranian by the way?
I nominate Cassie in Faulkner's "The Sound and the Fury".
Such a cool video! I totally agree with you
That's a tall order, I can't think of any atm.
What I do is think of a man, and then I take away reason, and accountability
I can recommend the books of Theodor Fontane, like Effi Briest
or Frau Jenny Treibel. The other one I like is Henrik Ibsen, like Hedda Gabler or Die Frau vom Meer (I don't know the english titles). Both we're interestet in the Relations between man an women.
Ah, I remember reading Effie Briest in school and actually quite enjoying it. I should check out some of his other works. I've not yet read any Ibsen, but I'll ad him to my list. Thank you for the recommendations!
Now do one about examples of women writing god men characters, and please put subtitles if is posible
I think Fredrick Backman portrays women well... At least in A Man Called Ove, the only novel of his that I have read.
I've heard good things about that book, thanks for the recommendation :)
Your arguments are absolutely nonsensical I'm sorry. A male author writes a male protagonist if course the protagonist is likely to be the default character and the main POV / Experience. A woman as a side character doesn't have any more value than a male side character.
This idea that every character 3sp of they are women or some marginalized group has to had a fully fleshed out back story and motivations is hilariously short sighted. Sometimes people are nothing more than a plot device. Even in real life. Sometimes you meet a person she or he causes some stuff to start rolling / creates a chain of events and you never really see them or care about them again.
I see female readers complain so often about unrealistic female portrayals on books. Meanwhile the most popular female read genres are abusive relationships between 16 year old shy virgin Mary sues and much older guys or the "strong girl super hero, undefeatable vampire witch" who hates every other girl and calls her classmate a slat for having kissed her own boyfriend in public that one time. Meanwhile it's ok that she has a gang bang with bad boy professor vanpiricus ... It's ok because she was under a powerful bloodspell .. but she can't 2ait to do it again tonight.
Yes obviously women are much better at writing women (ps excuse the sarcasm but i do actually believe women are better, of course they are. They have the experience of growing up a WOMAN" . Which is also why 70% of the content at "r/menwritingwomen" is just women writing smut, attributed to men somehow. And 20% is intentionally taken out of context to make the writer look bad.
Anyway. The reason this frustrates me so is because NO PERSON is the same. Hence any character no matter how dumb, hypocritical or nonsensical exists somewhere.
Yet
1. Seductive temptress or a nymphomaniac .. nope can't do that that's sexist because those girls obviously don't exist. The fact that I've known girls like that irl I've known girls who used their appearance to get what they want. Somehow doesn't matter
2. Woman is attractive. Nope can't do that attractive women don't exist and are UNREALISTIC.
3. Women is feminine. Nope can't do that that's sexist
4. Can't have ANY form of SA because that might trigger someone and obviously that doesn't EVEr happen in real life. At least we gotta pretend it doesn't. Don't go to the root cause bo let's pretend it doesn't exist that .. works and will surely solve the issues. Ah a bandit who threathened to SA one of his victims. That would NEVER happen .. such a dirty male fantasy. Probably just the writer living out his fantasies. Using women as a plot device. To elicit emotions ... Which is totally not .. what a book is about. you're only ever supposed to be affirmed, loved, supporter and happy while reading a book. You shouldn't ever think. Complex characters that aren't like you don't exist because everyone thinks like you obviously and if they don't well they should because they are wrong
Etc etc. There is no pleasing everyone. I'm sure there have been written critiques and long angry comments about the women you thought were written well by men.
Etc etc etc. My point is. If you pick up a book with a clear protagonist. Don't be surprised his love interest or sister or whatever the fk isn't as fleshed out and doesn't have her own motivations and goals etc etc. How many fkn people do you people even know that have actual goals and motivations. Most people cruise by in life.
Listen sometimes it becomes very obvious that the writer is beingxreepy or that this girl is unrealistically constantly hitting on his obnoxious self insert etc. But in the majority of cases. This whole "men writing women" is a hilariously bad take by people who seem to live in an extremely limited bubble and haven't met anyone outside of their normal of values
Well, you can't blame male writers. They can't write stories with only male characters. And men don't know what it is to be a woman like a woman does. So, male written female characters may, many times, feel somewhat stereotypical. But it's great for male writers to see what the woman's perspective is on the issue.
Sure but I would suggest that most writers also don't know what it is to be a serial killer, or a wizard, or the secret heir to the throne. All it takes for a male writer to write a good female character is to see beyond one's biases and prejudices and listen to the voices of women. It's not rocket science.
Do you think serial killers would approve to how they are portrayed in novels? Same way us other men probably sometimes miss nuonces in women characters written by men us non serial killers probably miss the nuonces in serial killer characters written by non seriel killers…
Well. alright.Some guys like Lewis Black can get attacked for agreeing with people. I think some authors do cautionary tales to show, not tell, the futility of error. But since You asked.; Irving Wallace. The Celestial Bed. The Fan Club. The Second Lady. The Seven Minutes.The Three Sirens. You can tell me what is wrong. He can point out why.
Mariette in Ecstasy by Ron Hansen
Also" The Hummingbirds Daughter by Luis Urrea
There is very little to go on in this rambling video to explicate what meant by well written female characters.
Next time you try something like this Miss, try to provide a plethora of examples and contrasting points of what could have & in other books often is lacking in female character development. To give solidity of perspective regarding your understanding of character design being well executed.
4:27 "grows up as a novice"?
You mean as an oblate?
Two categories of professed monks and nuns - conversi and oblati (for the masculine, obviously -ae in feminine). The conversi have a novitiate. The oblati get an education in the monastery. Either way one is free to leave, instead of making the vows.
Convents are for orders with only conversi, so, if a character grows up there, she is, a) an oblate rather than a novice, and b) living in a monastery, not in a convent.
Obviously, the author could very well be getting the Catholic setting slightly wrong and the female characters perfectly right.
_w a i t_ - the setting is not mundane? OK, makes sense, not actual real life Catholic settings, then!
Yes, I was simply going with the terminology used in the book which is not set at a Catholic convent, but in a fantasy setting.
@@SpinstersLibrary ok, makes sense!
In all fairness i dont think most female writters write men very well. I think it is just the way it goes for a large majority of writers.
Men write women correctly all the time. There is not ONE universal woman. This is a stupid idea.
You know what no one ever discusses? Male characters written by women. Know why? Because men aren’t busy problematizing those characters.
...But we can. Harry Potter doesn’t act like a teenage boy. He’s almost entirely sexless. He doesn’t seek bonding with other boys or seek out adult men. He acts like a woman imagines a teenage boy acts. But guess what? Close enough, and I’m not throwing myself on a cross about it.
“But I don’t hear men complaining about the way Harry was written.” Yep, because we aren’t concerned with nitpicking.
Or how about Ayn Rand? Her men only have sex drives when the heroine arrives. How convenient! It’s like the fantasy of a teenage girl! This great guy doesn’t have sex ever, except with ME! I could go on about Rand, but she’s my favorite author and her inaccuracy is trivial to the theme.
The fact is that women are equally bad at writing men, but you only ever hear about this kind of issue from malcontent women. Guess what! Women ALSO write bad women and men write bad men! It’s almost as if there’s NOT a cultural bias against women. It’s almost as if men and women are humsns who do their best to illustrate their experience...
And maybe feminists should get off the cross...and write a MALE character so the world can examine it for authenticity.
But god, gatekeeping on who writes women well? Come on. I have YET to read a female novelist who writes a male character that makes total sense. But the journey is the intellectual stretch - I’m so happy ANY writer takes a swing at presenting a character. The attitude of standing on a pedestal and demanding an author fundamentally nail your twenty point criterion for a genuine female character smacks of narcissism. How much literature and art have you or will you be deprived of because you’re micromanaging an author precisely because he has XY chromosomes? Do you really think the best way to absorb art is to obsess over this kind of thing? Recommending a book based on this criterion is ridiculous.
Come On.
You're very welcome to make your own discussion videos about issues you care about. 'Tis a free country.
Your comment would be far more effective if it was written politely. Ranting and insulting people doesn't help your case, even if it is completely valid (which I think it is).
That's a very good point. Also men don't care about male characters being sexualized.
What about a time where a women has wrote a man right 😂
that's literally all the time
Women in The Witcher are well potrayed imo though it's a fantasy novel
6 minutes
The trick is how to write a female character that is different than a male character without falling back onto a stereotype.
No Turgenev or Dostoevsky? shaaaaame