1. Well the actual results are not surprising to me,but i would move the cones next to the camera guy and give him the stopwatch, make it easier on you haha. and have some shots between laps with the actual times going on there. 2. put that inside camera on the dash and give as a hood view or something, much better than your mug hahaha. 3. Do more scenarios.
@@Teamoneilrally @Team O'Neil Rally School Aside from the active plan; If you did a video series on random or miscellaneous driving scenarios, it'd probably slay!
^^ What this guy said, especially the stopwatch! There's a couple of seconds of uncertainty for sure in there just with you starting to roll and starting the time. Keep making more like this, we're loving it!
I did 6 days at Team O'Neil. The first 3 days were around -15 F and sheer ice. The second 3 days were in the spring. Learning car control on ice and snow is one of the best Motorsports experiences I've ever had! The spring was a lot faster and presented slightly different challenges. I'm so jealous. I want to be there again. Go to Team O'Neil, especially in the winter if you can. It's freaking amazing!
Having driven two wheel drive pickup trucks and rear wheel drive cars for quite a few years I think there's a good possibility that they'll be quite close, especially over a longer distance where acceleration is less of a factor. Also having said that I did notice a huge difference, mostly in acceleration with a rebuilt limited slip on my p71 when I had it.
@@MitchRiedstra My bet is that if driven smoothly, avoiding tire spin, and if the surface is consistent, the open diff will be close. But driving aggressively, the LSD will be clearly better; the open diff will be more difficult/ less predictable when driving aggressively.
@@fredygump5578 You are pretty much correct. I have an E46 Touring for almost 6 years now. The first couple of years I drove it with the stock open diff. It was still pretty fun in the snow, but it spun the inner wheel like crazy when accelerating out of a tight corner, slowing you down a lot. As an enthusiast, I decided to install custom LSD with a 40% lock. It totally transformed the way the car handles at the limit and beyond it. You always know what the rear will do and you can pull off these long drifts, that were previously almost impossible with the open diff.
@@HochstartHarry a common misconception is that an LSD makes it easier to spin tires, actually its the opposite, it's just an LSD makes sortoff sure that if one tire spins, the other one will too (when given enough throttle)
Just found this channel and it's awesome. I'm not telling you guys to spend money or anything, but if you have the extra cameras, a video running around your track split screen with a windshield view showing handwork and a camera showing footwork at the same time would be incredible.
I made the same experience on a frozen lake a few years ago. The car was a E30 too, on street spike tyres. Sideways was faster, but with very low grip it was very easy to make a mistake. So in the end the difference between sideways and straight was very small.
I can't wait to visit team O'Neill school! I have been setting aside some money each month.... I may only be able to afford 1 day but I am going to make the most of it!
This is an excellent production and true to the original TH-cam quality we all came to know and love! Keep doing your best and we'll keep liking and subscribing!
I'd love to see this in a vehicle with stability control turned on. Notably i'd love to see how the systems interrupt your driving line. I know stability control is for safety not speed but i'm curious if your going hot how it interferes with a knowledgeable driver.
I have no experience with timed driving, but i know that accelerating a car with tc and esp will be slower than accelerating without, this only applies for knoelageble drivers tho who know how to drive
Love it!! I think so many people go by that slow is fast mentality because they just don't have the skills to take the risk. Love this demo great car choice also!!!
its true in road racing, open wheel racing etc go try and thrash a gt3 car around a track it would be stupid, it depends on the car, surface, driving style, Tyre and fuel regulations, risk vs reward. nothing is that simple, even some road racing like older Japanese touring cars at one point had corners it was faster to have a little over steer and some fast rally stages its better to keep clean and tidy. you could say as a general rule on loose surface it more likely to be faster to slide while on tarmac its generally faster to stay smooth and tidy but there is always exceptions. and a big part is wear on the vehicle, wear on tyres, fuel consumption... if you have to pit an extra time over a 120 mile rally will the 21 minutes you save really be worth it? also fatigue and risk of crash, if you are thrashing for a few days straight getting tired what is the chance you will crash? 1 small crash could make you slower than the time you would gain and maybe even put you out the race, as with all racing its about balance
I did something similar on an ice track and tight turns. The acceleration lugging a car and slower acceleration was better than spinning and drifting. Like on glare ice when you idle away versus spinning hard and not moving. So on glare ice the results are a bit different.
What you get is something like a balance point between your forward speed, the center of mass of the vehicle and the available traction of the surface. All of that then determines the correct angle to achieve fastest progress. A rally driver is always adjusting to achieve that and a drift driver is always adjusting to achieve an even bigger angle. ;¬)
What do you feel determines the difference in speed? I can see a few factors to look at. 1) Deformable surface - You tend to always gain an advantage using more aggressive driving on deformable surfaces. This not only includes how the surface shapes around the tire as the tire exerts force, but it can also include thrust from physical ejection. It can even include a reduction in friction with the intent of grabbing at the leading edge in front of the tire and moving it out of the way versus grip driving where you are more so always trying to climb over the snow. 2) Application of peak power and grip levels - To slide more often forces you to be at the operating limit most of the time. If you weren't at the limit, you would not be sliding. With the ideal being to maximize energy out and grip utilization, it's an easier method to position you in that limit region. Grip driving tends to mean you're sometimes at but often under the limit, both for energy out and grip utilization. It's much, much harder to balance at the limit when you're not always there. 3) Chassis inertia/handing balance - I'm not sure if these go hand-in-hand, but the basic idea is if a car is configured to understeer, you will often underutilize all 4 tires. You will hit the limit of one end or the other first and then sit there with some reserve on the other tires. A rwd is nice in that you can operate both ends independently through throttle and steering to balance this, if it's being done. The balance would also influence how you take a corner since you have to manage the chassis rotation somewhere (early, late, evenly through) and utilize grip to do so. The choice to oversteer and slide all the time can counter the imbalance and utilize all the grip versus having one end with some reserve left. This is generally how I've perceived the performance issue. Basically, if the car is configured very neutral, it would experience less difference between grip and slip driving (if surface deformation isn't playing a roll). As a car is configured more for under or over steer, now one needs to manage inputs to counter this and neutral out the car in any way viable for the available inputs. For an understeering car, you're a little more hamfisted with the inputs, doing more weight shift, trail brake if the bias isn't too forward, initiating rotation a little early, and end up heavier on the throttle. Basically you sit there fighting against the car's imbalance. Kind of as #2, the sliding method is a simple way to do this and ensure you're using all the grip and all the available power. The main difference between a neutral car and understeering car while sliding is a little difference in steer angle and throttle application, but in both cases you're sitting there using all 4 tires to a high level. Grip driving, you might leave 10%, 15% on the table on the rear end of the car as the front pushes. 4) Tire traction circle - There's many other factors like how the tire bites the snow/ice and generates grip (most tires traction circle isn't very circular and may favor straight line operation, some slide angle, or even a lot of slide angle. I've found many winter tires favor straight line operation, main tires specifically tailored for accelerate/brake functions. For example, Michelin's X-ice Xi2 was like this. The newer Xi3 is nearly circular. Most V pattern winters I've run have always favored some slip angle to generate grip. It didn't really matter the brand. If the design was a V style, it hand moderately less initial lateral bite until you got some slip. They all seemed designed to ramp up in grip levels, say up to 20 to 30 degrees. I believe the overall intent is for the tire to "catch" a slide and self straighten the car without the driver needing to correct. This style of tire would ultimately favor slip driving, from my experience...significantly, a rough guess a solid 10% to 15% greater grip levels with slip angle. Some of the testing to determine which components are affecting the time, you would need to tweak the surface and the car's suspension setup. I know to eliminate deformable surfaces you could run on ice. An ice surface will not generate the advantages snow offers (or mud, dirt, sand, gravel). #2 is just very, very difficult to do from a grip perspective. It's really a constant struggle and constant testing of grip and throttle levels just to attempt to keep yourself close. It's a hell of a lot of work to feel around that edge up from under the threshold and keeping yourself right there. I've tried for many years, and it's realistically the most challenging skill I've ever struggled with driving. It's way to easy to leave a little here and there on the table, and every little bit adds up and quite moderately. A great practical example is driving nearly 100% and driving at 80% or 70%. The difference is a lot of seconds. Just personally, I've commonly seen 2-3 seconds lost per minute just from a slight amount of laziness, say at 90%. It's just a lot, LOT easier to step over and just put the limit somewhere in the middle instead and just wiggle above and below as you go. That limit is far more visible and apparent when driving. For #3, you'd just have to tweak suspension settings and play with the same car configured for understeer, neutral, and oversteer. See how each configuration utilizes grip and power delivery for grip driving and slip driving. I would make the assumption a car configured for understeer will be fastest slip driving, but a car configured for oversteer will slightly favor tidy grip driving. #4 would be just trying a few different tires with known traction circle shapes/known behaviors.
I'm not sure about rwd. But from my experience with awd, the sliding is super important for pointing the nose where you want to go. When you don't slide you deal with a lot of understeer which causes you to overslow just to get the car around the corner.
@@fukkinkana sort of. You have to rotate the car. You're stuck dealing with inertia at some point. You just have to decide where. For off road on deformable surfaces, there can be a moderate advantage to initiating rotation early in the turn, even before the turn. You can perform work on the necessary rotation and generate deceleration at the same time. This can scale anywhere between trail braking to pitching the car sideways or in extreme cases kind it rearward (we've all seen some of these rally clips). Any rotation you get out of the way at the entrance means you have more grip through and it of the turn available. You're doing less work to rotate the chassis and have more available to corner and accelerate out. There are constraints though, like available space to have the car sideways, if there's an advantage with the surface (dirt vs asphalt), and if there are skill/control issues that could introduce excess risk. Sometimes finishing wins races.
@@Xmvw2X your always gonna deal with inertia no matter what kind of racing you do. Also I'm not experienced with 2wd, so it may be different, but with an awd with appropriate (gravel, snow, etc) tires you have plenty of grip on these loose surfaces. You brake to appropriate speed before the corner. Your not gonna get the rear end loose just cause you're driving fast. You need to shift the weight to the front, which is why left foot braking is a thing. Once you got fhe nose pointed at the exit (even before that in many cases), you find your exit, and full throttle out. That's just the way i drive.
love it! One thing I wonder I keep seeing some rally drivers still slide a lot on the tarmac ... and I am almost I have read somewhere some WRC teams have a separate driver that is meant for tarmac races to slide less :). On the other hand, based on personal feelings I know for sure there are some corner types where sliding on tarmac feels faster even in a gokart or with my Subi during slalom days events.
Great video! Can't wait for the front wheel drive version! I struggle with understeer while intentionally or unintentionally sliding so I hope you address that.
How much a factor do you think the tread pattern has on the sideways grip of a tire? Most rally tires I know have blocks which go longitudinally as well as blocks which go diagonally, I assume for this very reason. This was covered a little bit in an earlier video you made "Rally Tires Explained." This may be a more general "practical" video, but its a point worth revisiting when you make Ep. 3!
Not directly related, but one thing I noticed after playing around a bit, is that in my non abs car, the tyres wouldn't lock (as soon) if I didn't press the clutch. Dunno if that's something usual or anything, but it certainly is a peace of mind for me
Yes that's' good peace of mind especially in the winter! When you are in gear, the tires will not lock unless the engine and driveline also lock up and stall out, the engine is basically keeping the wheels turning. This is really good if you're using it gently as you are... But if you do brake really hard on a slippery road, the tires will lock and the engine will stall, so just be careful of that... Usually when you release the brakes, the tires will grip and the engine will bump-start itself again but that's not always the case. If it's really icy, the tires may not have enough grip to bump-start, and some new cars with push-button starters need to be stopped for the motor to turn over... Our Focus RS if you stall it out you need to come to a full stop, push the button, then go again. With the engine off you've got no power steering, power brakes etc so it can be sketchy.
@@Teamoneilrally Ah yes, you need to be weary of that. Started trying stuff after sliding down a mountain. Stalling the engine was the least of my worries at that moment ^^
Can you guys do a video timing the difference of snow/studded tires vs gravel rally tires. Would be nice to see the results before next month's rally sprint up there!!
What kind of tires are you guys using on these cars? Would be interesting to see a studded vs non-studded comparison on top of the slide/no slide comparison.
How to jump a car? While mid air, should I press in a clutch pedal before I land or should I let of the gas or should I just floor it like i'm in dukes of hazzard?
what about not on snow? This result doesn't seem too surprising to me since on an extremely slick surface you have to be very conservative to do a grip run but on something where your tires can get more grip, it would allow you to go faster on a grip run and possibly slow you down on a drift one.
It all depends on surface, and how the car is set up. (This is how I think it is, thuogh I have not driven too many car type and drivetrain configurations, or any very high spec cars) If the car is set like any average car withuot mods, all drivetrains prefer very minor slide on tarmack, bit more on gravel and snow. If the car is set like rally car would be, on snow and gravel it often prefers bit more slide, but on tarmack it's very situational, with the exception of short wheelbase high power AWD and RWD cars that might prefer sliding more If the car is tuned for tarmack track, (Such as DTM, BTCC, F1, Indy. etc.) all drivetrains prefer grip, Some really powerful AWD cars might have some benefit on sliding, how ever that is very situational. or of the car is set to be slightly loose (Such as Nascar) In all cases slides CAN make the car faster, but having too much slide slows you down, althuogh on some cases (Such as ice racing car doing a tarmac hillclimb stage) even high amount of sliding wont slow you down too much.
Do you know anything about the brake override system for new WRX Sti's? Any way around it to allow left foot braking? Can't seem to find anyone online who has been able to do it.
Nice videos as always! i have a 2002 wrx, i would be interested in knowing which tecnique is best/faster to approach a small snowy hairpin when the speed isn't enough to do a scandinavian flick using the standard way with the pedal brake. (in my case i use the handbrake once for sliding the rear in the opposite direction and once again to make the hairpin sideway) Thanks if you'll reply!
Low speed: The handbrake is your best option. With a little more speed: Lift, turn, brake (smoothly without locking up the wheels) More speed still: Pendulum turn More speed still: Trail brake or brake straight to slow down then handbrake *Probably try the lift, turn, brake thing somewhere with plenty of room first to get the hang of it*
Go to Team O'Niel and get the seat time with an instructor. You will learn things that you don't even know about and they will teach you the right habits on how to handle a car.
@@camerongillis437 Eventually, yeah you're totally right that it's not great for the center differential. To be a little extra easy on the car just be all the way off the gas and clutch in when you handbrake... Also be pretty quick about it, try not to hold it up for too long... You'll get a LOT of handbrake turns out of an AWD before the center diff starts to get weak. And you're again correct, you can always add a little speed and do a pendulum turn instead, that just takes some practice and commitment. A lot of drivers go that route and only use the handbrake as an emergency backup if something goes wrong. Anyone interested in more on handbrake turns check out th-cam.com/video/Dv_mdpEVOc8/w-d-xo.html
@@Teamoneilrally many thanks for your reply, unfortunately my wrx understeers a lot at low speed with low-grip conditions just lifting off the gas and turning. Only "1 handbrake hit" seems not good either so the only way to do it seems to create a scandinavian flick with the handbrake waaay before the hairpin always keeping the wheelspin at minimum. PS: obviously i always press the clutch while using the handbrake
Although I think I know the results, I would really like to see these tests on pavement. To be more specific, I want to know if it’s possible for a drift run to be faster than a grip run
i think that isn't possible. the main reason why drifting is faster than grip racing on loose surfaces seems to be the fact that it pushes some of the ground to the sides before the car which slows it down and gives stability
I wonder what the times would be like if you mastered the perfect line without skidding vs the best skidding time. IE, can the difference be made up with perfect line choice and practice?
Even the "not skidding" laps here had a little bit of skidding... To do a real "no skidding" run, you would have to be going very slowly and carefully.
@@Teamoneilrally Understood. After watching more of your videos about race lines, I get the sense that "optimal race lines" are not a thing in rally racing. I'd be interested in more of a deep dive on this topic in regards to going "balls out" with AWD vs an "optimal race line" attempt with a FWD. Basically: can an extremely practiced and deliberate FWD driver perform the same as a "get in and give'r" AWD driver. given similar power, braking, and tires. This is the context, in regards to rally racing, that I hear the idea that "carefully choosing your line with an FWD is as fast/faster than an AWD just sliding everywhere."
This seemed like a comparison to see whether driving slowly is quicker than driving fast!!!! The thing I have wondered about is the benefit of the "scandavian flick" and using the handbrake and really unsettling the car going into the turns. I may be wrong but you don't seem to be using these techniques on either run? When I watch old Group B videos and see the cars being flung left, right, left etc into the corners with the car fully rotated before the apex, I can't help thinking a simple neat line must be quicker, after all you don't seem to see the WRC cars being driven like this nowadays. Does that make any sense?
You're exactly correct, if you want to go fast on a slippery road you're probably going to be sliding around a fair amount. As far as the BIG slides doing pendulum turns and handbrake turns, you only need a BIG slide if it's a BIG corner right? If it's a 90 degree corner, the goal is to slide about 90 degrees and then hammer down as you go by the apex. If it's a big almost 180 degree hairpin, that's when have to do the flick or handbrake to make about 180 degrees of rotation on the way in.
@@Teamoneilrally that certainly makes sense. So I guess you'd say it's definitely faster through a 180 degree corner doing the full pendulum turn on snow and gravel? Maybe not dry tarmac??
Great video. I was wondering if sim racing like Dirt Rally has transferable skills to real world rallycross and could help you get a feel for moving sideways?
Yes and no. They're really good for learning to listen to the notes and trusting your co-driver instead of just what you can see. They're also great for training your eyes to always look where you want to go (not at the trees and spectators). They also teach you to keep it pretty tidy, stay on the road and don't break the car. As far as building muscle memory for driving an actual car sideways at high speed, they're not perfect, but they get better every year. You'd get more skills faster hammering a beater car around on a frozen lake or something, but the sims are definitely better than nothing.
You'll find that real life has a lot more grip than video games make you believe. Also in video games weight transfer is pointless where irl it's critical. Sense of speed, sense of steering, sense of pushing the brake with your left foot, etc. All have to be learned from actually driving.
@@pedroportfolio I agree. RBR is actually the one and only rally sim ever made. Dirt rally with modded physics can feel quite believable at times on the right car / stage combo but when you have enough experience on both real cars and sims it's easy to realize how insanely arcadey the physics are. A good sim will teach you the right kind of muscle memory, because it requires pretty much exactly the same kind of movements behind the wheel to achieve the results you want. But to be fast IRL requires real IRL experience. Also what most people don't realize is the same is true for simracing as well.
I like your series but.. hell there's snow and you just have a jacket and even rolled up sleeves xD. Whatever always interesting stuff, thumbs up from Italy.
ProTec helmet checks the box for our insurance here and there's no real need for a proper rally helmet just to go for a little rip around in the snow. We do use full racing helmets for the rally stages.
1. Well the actual results are not surprising to me,but i would move the cones next to the camera guy and give him the stopwatch, make it easier on you haha. and have some shots between laps with the actual times going on there.
2. put that inside camera on the dash and give as a hood view or something, much better than your mug hahaha.
3. Do more scenarios.
The plan is to do FWD next on a longer more complex course here on the snow and ice, then we'll switch surfaces and do it again.
@@Teamoneilrally @Team O'Neil Rally School
Aside from the active plan; If you did a video series on random or miscellaneous driving scenarios, it'd probably slay!
@@Teamoneilrally here comes the handbrake lol
^^ What this guy said, especially the stopwatch! There's a couple of seconds of uncertainty for sure in there just with you starting to roll and starting the time. Keep making more like this, we're loving it!
you want to be able to see driver inputs as well, up on the cage over the shoulder would be ideal.
I did 6 days at Team O'Neil. The first 3 days were around -15 F and sheer ice. The second 3 days were in the spring. Learning car control on ice and snow is one of the best Motorsports experiences I've ever had! The spring was a lot faster and presented slightly different challenges. I'm so jealous. I want to be there again. Go to Team O'Neil, especially in the winter if you can. It's freaking amazing!
Brilliant videos, can't wait for the next ones!
Can you test how much of a difference LSD does on the snow? So a car without LSD vs one equipped with it?
Having driven two wheel drive pickup trucks and rear wheel drive cars for quite a few years I think there's a good possibility that they'll be quite close, especially over a longer distance where acceleration is less of a factor.
Also having said that I did notice a huge difference, mostly in acceleration with a rebuilt limited slip on my p71 when I had it.
@@MitchRiedstra My bet is that if driven smoothly, avoiding tire spin, and if the surface is consistent, the open diff will be close. But driving aggressively, the LSD will be clearly better; the open diff will be more difficult/ less predictable when driving aggressively.
I think driving a car on lsd in the dry is risky... And you want to try lsd whilest snow drifting...
Crazy kids these days...
@@fredygump5578 You are pretty much correct. I have an E46 Touring for almost 6 years now. The first couple of years I drove it with the stock open diff. It was still pretty fun in the snow, but it spun the inner wheel like crazy when accelerating out of a tight corner, slowing you down a lot. As an enthusiast, I decided to install custom LSD with a 40% lock. It totally transformed the way the car handles at the limit and beyond it. You always know what the rear will do and you can pull off these long drifts, that were previously almost impossible with the open diff.
@@HochstartHarry a common misconception is that an LSD makes it easier to spin tires, actually its the opposite, it's just an LSD makes sortoff sure that if one tire spins, the other one will too (when given enough throttle)
This car sideways was as fast as the AWD car was keeping it neat and tidy. Interesting!
Fwd next please
And hutch back plz
He said they are going to do it in the end
inb4 "wrong wheel drive" crowd gets here
Just found this channel and it's awesome. I'm not telling you guys to spend money or anything, but if you have the extra cameras, a video running around your track split screen with a windshield view showing handwork and a camera showing footwork at the same time would be incredible.
I made the same experience on a frozen lake a few years ago.
The car was a E30 too, on street spike tyres.
Sideways was faster, but with very low grip it was very easy to make a mistake.
So in the end the difference between sideways and straight was very small.
I can't wait to visit team O'Neill school! I have been setting aside some money each month.... I may only be able to afford 1 day but I am going to make the most of it!
Do it with the Super Duty next.
This is an excellent production and true to the original TH-cam quality we all came to know and love! Keep doing your best and we'll keep liking and subscribing!
Always a blast to see you drive and/or explaining, Wyatt! Keep up the good work of entertaining and teaching us things! Richard
I'd love to see this in a vehicle with stability control turned on. Notably i'd love to see how the systems interrupt your driving line. I know stability control is for safety not speed but i'm curious if your going hot how it interferes with a knowledgeable driver.
Yes yes pleAse , same question here
It interferes badly!
@@GTFour well this is clear we can feel that more interested in how it influences the clock :) and how much time one will lose.
it would just make you go really slow. tried it myself
I have no experience with timed driving, but i know that accelerating a car with tc and esp will be slower than accelerating without, this only applies for knoelageble drivers tho who know how to drive
Love it!! I think so many people go by that slow is fast mentality because they just don't have the skills to take the risk. Love this demo great car choice also!!!
its true in road racing, open wheel racing etc go try and thrash a gt3 car around a track it would be stupid, it depends on the car, surface, driving style, Tyre and fuel regulations, risk vs reward. nothing is that simple, even some road racing like older Japanese touring cars at one point had corners it was faster to have a little over steer and some fast rally stages its better to keep clean and tidy. you could say as a general rule on loose surface it more likely to be faster to slide while on tarmac its generally faster to stay smooth and tidy but there is always exceptions. and a big part is wear on the vehicle, wear on tyres, fuel consumption... if you have to pit an extra time over a 120 mile rally will the 21 minutes you save really be worth it? also fatigue and risk of crash, if you are thrashing for a few days straight getting tired what is the chance you will crash? 1 small crash could make you slower than the time you would gain and maybe even put you out the race, as with all racing its about balance
YES, my favourite episode continues.
I did something similar on an ice track and tight turns. The acceleration lugging a car and slower acceleration was better than spinning and drifting. Like on glare ice when you idle away versus spinning hard and not moving. So on glare ice the results are a bit different.
Hey Wyatt !! You have too much fun at your job !!! Keep the videos coming !!!
no dislikes cuz you sir are the best!!! I always learn with you thanks alot!!!!
Let's see you do this course with a Hyundai Equus
What you get is something like a balance point between your forward speed, the center of mass of the vehicle and the available traction of the surface. All of that then determines the correct angle to achieve fastest progress. A rally driver is always adjusting to achieve that and a drift driver is always adjusting to achieve an even bigger angle. ;¬)
What do you feel determines the difference in speed? I can see a few factors to look at.
1) Deformable surface - You tend to always gain an advantage using more aggressive driving on deformable surfaces. This not only includes how the surface shapes around the tire as the tire exerts force, but it can also include thrust from physical ejection. It can even include a reduction in friction with the intent of grabbing at the leading edge in front of the tire and moving it out of the way versus grip driving where you are more so always trying to climb over the snow.
2) Application of peak power and grip levels - To slide more often forces you to be at the operating limit most of the time. If you weren't at the limit, you would not be sliding. With the ideal being to maximize energy out and grip utilization, it's an easier method to position you in that limit region. Grip driving tends to mean you're sometimes at but often under the limit, both for energy out and grip utilization. It's much, much harder to balance at the limit when you're not always there.
3) Chassis inertia/handing balance - I'm not sure if these go hand-in-hand, but the basic idea is if a car is configured to understeer, you will often underutilize all 4 tires. You will hit the limit of one end or the other first and then sit there with some reserve on the other tires. A rwd is nice in that you can operate both ends independently through throttle and steering to balance this, if it's being done. The balance would also influence how you take a corner since you have to manage the chassis rotation somewhere (early, late, evenly through) and utilize grip to do so. The choice to oversteer and slide all the time can counter the imbalance and utilize all the grip versus having one end with some reserve left. This is generally how I've perceived the performance issue. Basically, if the car is configured very neutral, it would experience less difference between grip and slip driving (if surface deformation isn't playing a roll). As a car is configured more for under or over steer, now one needs to manage inputs to counter this and neutral out the car in any way viable for the available inputs. For an understeering car, you're a little more hamfisted with the inputs, doing more weight shift, trail brake if the bias isn't too forward, initiating rotation a little early, and end up heavier on the throttle. Basically you sit there fighting against the car's imbalance. Kind of as #2, the sliding method is a simple way to do this and ensure you're using all the grip and all the available power. The main difference between a neutral car and understeering car while sliding is a little difference in steer angle and throttle application, but in both cases you're sitting there using all 4 tires to a high level. Grip driving, you might leave 10%, 15% on the table on the rear end of the car as the front pushes.
4) Tire traction circle - There's many other factors like how the tire bites the snow/ice and generates grip (most tires traction circle isn't very circular and may favor straight line operation, some slide angle, or even a lot of slide angle. I've found many winter tires favor straight line operation, main tires specifically tailored for accelerate/brake functions. For example, Michelin's X-ice Xi2 was like this. The newer Xi3 is nearly circular. Most V pattern winters I've run have always favored some slip angle to generate grip. It didn't really matter the brand. If the design was a V style, it hand moderately less initial lateral bite until you got some slip. They all seemed designed to ramp up in grip levels, say up to 20 to 30 degrees. I believe the overall intent is for the tire to "catch" a slide and self straighten the car without the driver needing to correct. This style of tire would ultimately favor slip driving, from my experience...significantly, a rough guess a solid 10% to 15% greater grip levels with slip angle.
Some of the testing to determine which components are affecting the time, you would need to tweak the surface and the car's suspension setup. I know to eliminate deformable surfaces you could run on ice. An ice surface will not generate the advantages snow offers (or mud, dirt, sand, gravel). #2 is just very, very difficult to do from a grip perspective. It's really a constant struggle and constant testing of grip and throttle levels just to attempt to keep yourself close. It's a hell of a lot of work to feel around that edge up from under the threshold and keeping yourself right there. I've tried for many years, and it's realistically the most challenging skill I've ever struggled with driving. It's way to easy to leave a little here and there on the table, and every little bit adds up and quite moderately. A great practical example is driving nearly 100% and driving at 80% or 70%. The difference is a lot of seconds. Just personally, I've commonly seen 2-3 seconds lost per minute just from a slight amount of laziness, say at 90%. It's just a lot, LOT easier to step over and just put the limit somewhere in the middle instead and just wiggle above and below as you go. That limit is far more visible and apparent when driving. For #3, you'd just have to tweak suspension settings and play with the same car configured for understeer, neutral, and oversteer. See how each configuration utilizes grip and power delivery for grip driving and slip driving. I would make the assumption a car configured for understeer will be fastest slip driving, but a car configured for oversteer will slightly favor tidy grip driving. #4 would be just trying a few different tires with known traction circle shapes/known behaviors.
I'm not sure about rwd. But from my experience with awd, the sliding is super important for pointing the nose where you want to go. When you don't slide you deal with a lot of understeer which causes you to overslow just to get the car around the corner.
@@fukkinkana sort of. You have to rotate the car. You're stuck dealing with inertia at some point. You just have to decide where. For off road on deformable surfaces, there can be a moderate advantage to initiating rotation early in the turn, even before the turn. You can perform work on the necessary rotation and generate deceleration at the same time. This can scale anywhere between trail braking to pitching the car sideways or in extreme cases kind it rearward (we've all seen some of these rally clips). Any rotation you get out of the way at the entrance means you have more grip through and it of the turn available. You're doing less work to rotate the chassis and have more available to corner and accelerate out. There are constraints though, like available space to have the car sideways, if there's an advantage with the surface (dirt vs asphalt), and if there are skill/control issues that could introduce excess risk. Sometimes finishing wins races.
@@Xmvw2X your always gonna deal with inertia no matter what kind of racing you do. Also I'm not experienced with 2wd, so it may be different, but with an awd with appropriate (gravel, snow, etc) tires you have plenty of grip on these loose surfaces. You brake to appropriate speed before the corner. Your not gonna get the rear end loose just cause you're driving fast. You need to shift the weight to the front, which is why left foot braking is a thing. Once you got fhe nose pointed at the exit (even before that in many cases), you find your exit, and full throttle out. That's just the way i drive.
love it! One thing I wonder I keep seeing some rally drivers still slide a lot on the tarmac ... and I am almost I have read somewhere some WRC teams have a separate driver that is meant for tarmac races to slide less :). On the other hand, based on personal feelings I know for sure there are some corner types where sliding on tarmac feels faster even in a gokart or with my Subi during slalom days events.
*imagines Eurobeat while he drifts the bimmer*
Happy New Year!!!
those E series cars aged like fine wine
only that fine wine tastes like cat piss...
@@alvinchan7746 does it? I for one have never tried cat piss
@@alvinchan7746
What accident or fetish lead to that knowledge?
I like this series
great series, pls do more of these sideways tests!!!
Great video! Can't wait for the front wheel drive version! I struggle with understeer while intentionally or unintentionally sliding so I hope you address that.
Fwd production cars naturally understeer for safety reasons.
@@AndyE30 and that's not what my comment is about at all.
It's only fair now to do fwd
Drifting is the best!
How much a factor do you think the tread pattern has on the sideways grip of a tire? Most rally tires I know have blocks which go longitudinally as well as blocks which go diagonally, I assume for this very reason. This was covered a little bit in an earlier video you made "Rally Tires Explained." This may be a more general "practical" video, but its a point worth revisiting when you make Ep. 3!
I'm looking forward to when these "get a little weird"!
Not directly related, but one thing I noticed after playing around a bit, is that in my non abs car, the tyres wouldn't lock (as soon) if I didn't press the clutch. Dunno if that's something usual or anything, but it certainly is a peace of mind for me
Yes that's' good peace of mind especially in the winter! When you are in gear, the tires will not lock unless the engine and driveline also lock up and stall out, the engine is basically keeping the wheels turning. This is really good if you're using it gently as you are... But if you do brake really hard on a slippery road, the tires will lock and the engine will stall, so just be careful of that... Usually when you release the brakes, the tires will grip and the engine will bump-start itself again but that's not always the case. If it's really icy, the tires may not have enough grip to bump-start, and some new cars with push-button starters need to be stopped for the motor to turn over... Our Focus RS if you stall it out you need to come to a full stop, push the button, then go again. With the engine off you've got no power steering, power brakes etc so it can be sketchy.
@@Teamoneilrally Ah yes, you need to be weary of that. Started trying stuff after sliding down a mountain. Stalling the engine was the least of my worries at that moment ^^
this is interesting! now i really looking forward for the frontwheel drive test
How much do you love your job? You guys must have one of the best jobs on the planet.
This looks like me driving to work on the winter in my Mercury Grand Marquis!
Keep it up. I love what you do. Cant wait for more of your making a race car segments.
Brilliant video trying to getting in rally building the car maybe a bit oversize car bmw e39 but need to start somewhere
gotta do this in this in the fiesta st...
Can you guys do a video timing the difference of snow/studded tires vs gravel rally tires. Would be nice to see the results before next month's rally sprint up there!!
Definitely go with the snow tires!!! Rally tires will be pretty terrible especially once it gets polished off.
Answer = sometimes... Momentum is the key, so whatever lets you carry the most speed through any given corner yeah.
love these videos!
You guys are doing great! Love the videos
I'm glad you guys can knock out some easy videos ... But it would be nice if people actually thought about things before asking bad questions ... haha
As mighty master Walter Rohrl said - "Good drivers have dead flies on the side windows!"
What kind of tires are you guys using on these cars? Would be interesting to see a studded vs non-studded comparison on top of the slide/no slide comparison.
You are a good drifter bro
How to jump a car? While mid air, should I press in a clutch pedal before I land or should I let of the gas or should I just floor it like i'm in dukes of hazzard?
as an e30 driver i would love to get some lecture on your e30´s but sadly i live in germany
still good to get some videolecture
what about not on snow? This result doesn't seem too surprising to me since on an extremely slick surface you have to be very conservative to do a grip run but on something where your tires can get more grip, it would allow you to go faster on a grip run and possibly slow you down on a drift one.
How much faster left-foot braking is could surprise most people, but I'd love to learn if I'm just pretentious.
Here's one we did left foot braking VS right foot braking: th-cam.com/video/PdnL0X7_WcM/w-d-xo.html
Love this thank you so much!!!
Surprised the RWD time was only a few seconds off the AWD time in the snow, especially with the uphill!
Left wheel drive next
It all depends on surface, and how the car is set up. (This is how I think it is, thuogh I have not driven too many car type and drivetrain configurations, or any very high spec cars)
If the car is set like any average car withuot mods, all drivetrains prefer very minor slide on tarmack, bit more on gravel and snow.
If the car is set like rally car would be, on snow and gravel it often prefers bit more slide, but on tarmack it's very situational, with the exception of short wheelbase high power AWD and RWD cars that might prefer sliding more
If the car is tuned for tarmack track, (Such as DTM, BTCC, F1, Indy. etc.) all drivetrains prefer grip, Some really powerful AWD cars might have some benefit on sliding, how ever that is very situational. or of the car is set to be slightly loose (Such as Nascar)
In all cases slides CAN make the car faster, but having too much slide slows you down, althuogh on some cases (Such as ice racing car doing a tarmac hillclimb stage) even high amount of sliding wont slow you down too much.
As a bit of a personal joke/meme, at 3:56 I played Initial D Jeja Vu ... I did not regret it.
it would be nice if you had mentioned if you were using winter tires or just all seasons...
I would love to attend your school... I have cousins in NH up your way..
Do you know anything about the brake override system for new WRX Sti's? Any way around it to allow left foot braking? Can't seem to find anyone online who has been able to do it.
Can you do your tests in a 1992 Nissan Sentra, and also in a 1990 AWD bone stock Subaru Legacy LS 2.2L? Please?
Maybe the BMW would do even better here in Germany, its homeland?? ;)
Great video series again.
love you guys vids I prefer sliding myself and have always made faster times that way
always nice videos... u guys know how to do it!
Please, show the difference with and without esp system on this cycle.
How fast can the plow trucks make the course? Is plow braking legal? Plow drifting...
great video! it hurts me to say this but I think the FWD when able to slide around the track might be faster than the RWD
Will you please do this again with a Porsche 911, a homemade EV with the batteries in the trunk, or at least with sandbags in the trunk of the E30?
That helmet!!
Why did he even bother?! 😂 Safety 1st
Fwd test time! Love these.
oh! P.S. Big Hello from Czech Republic!
Nice videos as always!
i have a 2002 wrx, i would be interested in knowing which tecnique is best/faster to approach a small snowy hairpin when the speed isn't enough to do a scandinavian flick using the standard way with the pedal brake.
(in my case i use the handbrake once for sliding the rear in the opposite direction and once again to make the hairpin sideway)
Thanks if you'll reply!
Low speed: The handbrake is your best option.
With a little more speed: Lift, turn, brake (smoothly without locking up the wheels)
More speed still: Pendulum turn
More speed still: Trail brake or brake straight to slow down then handbrake
*Probably try the lift, turn, brake thing somewhere with plenty of room first to get the hang of it*
Go to Team O'Niel and get the seat time with an instructor. You will learn things that you don't even know about and they will teach you the right habits on how to handle a car.
Wont using the e brake mess up his awd car? I always assumed that it would soni never use it I just flick
@@camerongillis437 Eventually, yeah you're totally right that it's not great for the center differential. To be a little extra easy on the car just be all the way off the gas and clutch in when you handbrake... Also be pretty quick about it, try not to hold it up for too long... You'll get a LOT of handbrake turns out of an AWD before the center diff starts to get weak. And you're again correct, you can always add a little speed and do a pendulum turn instead, that just takes some practice and commitment. A lot of drivers go that route and only use the handbrake as an emergency backup if something goes wrong. Anyone interested in more on handbrake turns check out th-cam.com/video/Dv_mdpEVOc8/w-d-xo.html
@@Teamoneilrally many thanks for your reply, unfortunately my wrx understeers a lot at low speed with low-grip conditions just lifting off the gas and turning. Only "1 handbrake hit" seems not good either so the only way to do it seems to create a scandinavian flick with the handbrake waaay before the hairpin always keeping the wheelspin at minimum.
PS: obviously i always press the clutch while using the handbrake
Why is there a bright stripe on top of the steering wheel?
So you can find 12 o'clock center again easily, you always know where straight is.
Because stripes make you go faster 😁
What abaut front wheel drive
I would love to see these tests on tarmac.
Haha, did you lose the stopwatch?? Awesome videos!!!
Although I think I know the results, I would really like to see these tests on pavement. To be more specific, I want to know if it’s possible for a drift run to be faster than a grip run
i think that isn't possible. the main reason why drifting is faster than grip racing on loose surfaces seems to be the fact that it pushes some of the ground to the sides before the car which slows it down and gives stability
I wonder what the times would be like if you mastered the perfect line without skidding vs the best skidding time. IE, can the difference be made up with perfect line choice and practice?
Even the "not skidding" laps here had a little bit of skidding... To do a real "no skidding" run, you would have to be going very slowly and carefully.
@@Teamoneilrally Understood. After watching more of your videos about race lines, I get the sense that "optimal race lines" are not a thing in rally racing.
I'd be interested in more of a deep dive on this topic in regards to going "balls out" with AWD vs an "optimal race line" attempt with a FWD. Basically: can an extremely practiced and deliberate FWD driver perform the same as a "get in and give'r" AWD driver. given similar power, braking, and tires.
This is the context, in regards to rally racing, that I hear the idea that "carefully choosing your line with an FWD is as fast/faster than an AWD just sliding everywhere."
There should be a crazy pants trial
I'd like to see this same test done on tarmac. And for petes sake, have the camera guy do the tuning
Where is episode 3????
This seemed like a comparison to see whether driving slowly is quicker than driving fast!!!! The thing I have wondered about is the benefit of the "scandavian flick" and using the handbrake and really unsettling the car going into the turns. I may be wrong but you don't seem to be using these techniques on either run? When I watch old Group B videos and see the cars being flung left, right, left etc into the corners with the car fully rotated before the apex, I can't help thinking a simple neat line must be quicker, after all you don't seem to see the WRC cars being driven like this nowadays. Does that make any sense?
You're exactly correct, if you want to go fast on a slippery road you're probably going to be sliding around a fair amount. As far as the BIG slides doing pendulum turns and handbrake turns, you only need a BIG slide if it's a BIG corner right? If it's a 90 degree corner, the goal is to slide about 90 degrees and then hammer down as you go by the apex. If it's a big almost 180 degree hairpin, that's when have to do the flick or handbrake to make about 180 degrees of rotation on the way in.
@@Teamoneilrally that certainly makes sense. So I guess you'd say it's definitely faster through a 180 degree corner doing the full pendulum turn on snow and gravel? Maybe not dry tarmac??
@@pjay3028 That's the sort of question that made us start filming this series... Check out th-cam.com/video/u9Xx_L0Rhjw/w-d-xo.html
What winter tires you are using?
Typically we use Yokohama Ice Guard.
FWD on dry asphalt? Should be interesting :D
When is the next episode with FWD?
FWD now, and do asphalt this summer =)
Do it again on asphalt in the summer.
Hi, can you tell which tires were you using?
Just checked, this one is on Yokohama Ice Guard IG52c
Great video. I was wondering if sim racing like Dirt Rally has transferable skills to real world rallycross and could help you get a feel for moving sideways?
Yes and no. They're really good for learning to listen to the notes and trusting your co-driver instead of just what you can see. They're also great for training your eyes to always look where you want to go (not at the trees and spectators). They also teach you to keep it pretty tidy, stay on the road and don't break the car. As far as building muscle memory for driving an actual car sideways at high speed, they're not perfect, but they get better every year. You'd get more skills faster hammering a beater car around on a frozen lake or something, but the sims are definitely better than nothing.
You'll find that real life has a lot more grip than video games make you believe. Also in video games weight transfer is pointless where irl it's critical. Sense of speed, sense of steering, sense of pushing the brake with your left foot, etc. All have to be learned from actually driving.
Richard Burns Rally... The Grail.
Forget dirt rally. Richard Burns Rally with ngp (latest physics mod) is the closest you will get to real rally driving. Especially with a VR headset.
@@pedroportfolio I agree. RBR is actually the one and only rally sim ever made. Dirt rally with modded physics can feel quite believable at times on the right car / stage combo but when you have enough experience on both real cars and sims it's easy to realize how insanely arcadey the physics are.
A good sim will teach you the right kind of muscle memory, because it requires pretty much exactly the same kind of movements behind the wheel to achieve the results you want.
But to be fast IRL requires real IRL experience. Also what most people don't realize is the same is true for simracing as well.
Fun fun! :)
I want to complain about something but I think I'm just jealous that I can't drift on snow in bmw e30. I mean what else u can ask for.
The Mac Demarco of the rally world
next do fwd also a footcam would be sweat
First 4 laps : BMW 😔
Last 4 laps : BMW 😃 😎....Hold my BRAKES.....im born to do THIS ☝️
Every time i see him outside in the snow his sleeves are always rolled up r u not cold bruh? 😂👍
any fwd video coming on this?
Watch the video, Wyatt specifically answers your question.
Yes we're going to do FWD next on a longer snow/ice course, then switch surfaces.
@@Teamoneilrally thanks for the answer😀
I like your series but.. hell there's snow and you just have a jacket and even rolled up sleeves xD. Whatever always interesting stuff, thumbs up from Italy.
Wait not everyone shovels snow in a t-shirt?
was your camera man distracted?
nice
Is that a bicicle helmet?
ProTec helmet checks the box for our insurance here and there's no real need for a proper rally helmet just to go for a little rip around in the snow. We do use full racing helmets for the rally stages.
RWD = More fun!