I grew up listening to my parents discussing Hal Lindsay's book during the '70s. Later, I worked for CBN in the early '80s. Each time I heard reference to the pre-trib rapture, I felt a check in my spirit and went over the many scriptures believers use to corroborate their point. Finally, I made an appointment with one of the department heads at the network to have a heart-to-heart discussion about it. When I told him that I couldn't find biblical references to the pre-trib rapture anywhere in scripture, he absolutely agreed with me. But, because we both were entrenched in the charismatic evangelical culture, we agreed to keep our reservations to ourselves. I'm a writer, so I pay attention to context. Early on, I realized that proponents of this doctrine spin scriptural sources they use to support it. This is more than just a misinterpretation caused by poor scholarship. It's a spirit of deception that has been unleashed on believers. I believe this false doctrine may have serious consequences in years to come.
Yes Sharon, this pre-trib docturine could have serious consequences, namely causing its adherents to fall away from the faith when difficult tribulation comes.
@@NHisways imagine all the food we would have stored up if all the believers were ready for at least a few years of scarce food. If we believed the bible so much that we adjusted our lives in the event that we see prophecy fulfilled. I think that was the reason of inventing the pre trib rapture. That way we aren't ready for the horseman and we have to make the difficult decision of getting marked for food or get casted out and starving. This is brilliant and sad
Thats because the bible is about Israel, written by Jews, Jesus would not even speak to the Samaritan Woman, he would nit allow the 70 he sent out to go unto Gentiles, so why would you expect anything about the Gentiles anywhere except in Paul's writings (the Disciple sent to the gentiles) or the book of Revelation that tells about the end times. Hence Paul says I tell you a Mystery (Meusterion which means a Secret by God's silence or to SHUT THE MOUTH). So, all of the text which are point unto the Jews plight point to the END when they will be raised up, not to the Rapture when the dead n Christ are raised up. The problem is you guys conflate the Bride of Christ and the Bride of God, the Jews. There is NO WAY we can marry Jesus in Rev. 18 then return with him, and help Jesus DESTROY the Beast without a pre trib rapture. Also, Jesus points over and over to his Marrying his bride. Well, the Jewish Custom was 7 days in the marriage chambers, the Jewish custom was for the father to send the son fir the bride at a time of his choice, The Jewish customs all fit, the groom gives the bride a gift, Jesus gave us the holy spirit, the bride has to consent and then be purified, we have to accept Christ then we are baptized, its a sort of purification period. 2 Thess. 2 says DEPART not FALLING AWAY, the first bible to not say DEOART was the KJV, the first 7 English translations had DEPART, so what is it that departs, the Church that is GATHERED UNTO Christ as verse 1 describes !! You have been duped, their is no mention of FAITH anywhere in the passage, but a GATHERING unto Christ is in verse 1.
And the Wrath of God will be poured out on the seat of the beast and those who have taken the mark......The plagues of Egypt are a foreshadow of things to come....
But not us that love him, and know the truth.Revelation 9:4 “And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.”
The only difference is that they are taught and the pre-trib as a fact but scripture doesn't hold that view to my perspective I respect everyone's perspective and the Lord Jesus is coming back I know when at the right time but the Christian hope is not if we escape if it's that he is coming back according to his will hallelujah Maranatha get ready and enjoy the ride
@@jesusfreak7777 Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and Hebrews 12:22-24, modern Dispensational Theology falls apart, and the pretrib removal of the Church falls with it. The Capitol "C" Church, as we use the word today, is not found in the entire Book of Revelation. Individual church bodies in ancient Asia Minor are found. In Revelation 12:11 we find those under the blood of the Lamb. A person cannot be under the blood of the Lamb and not be a part of the New Covenant Church of Jesus Christ. Verse 12 of this passage proves at least part of the tribulation period is the wrath of Satan upon the people of God. Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time. "It may come as a surprise to most pre-Trib prophecy students that the post-Trib position (in its primitive form) is the oldest point of view." The quotation above is from the book "Will You Escape The Tribulation? RAPTURE [Under Attack]", by Tim LaHaye, copyright 1998, Page 197. The gathering of the Church is described at the end of 1 Thess. Chapter 4, and the timing of the event is found in chapter 5. The word “But” in the first verse of chapter 5 connects the two chapters, and the words “we” and “sleep” in verse 10 of chapter 5 prove the two chapters are connected.
Ive been in the Church for 36 years and have heard both sides. One thing that i dont understand is if one believes that we are made to go through the great tribulation why arent you (maybe you are) preparing (food,water, fuel ect...) to survive this terrible time as best as you can. Does the bible say dont prepare because you must suffer? Also does the word teach to prepare as best as you can in reguards to the tribulation? Those who beleive we are made for the tribulation: i havent heard them warning others to prepare either.
yeoberry im not trying to prove a pre trib rapture. Im trying to unserstand if we beleive we are to suffer through the tribulation then shouldnt we try and prepare. I asked questions. Does the bible say for the tribulation that we shouldn't prepare with food, water ect...? Or does it say we should prepare?. Or is it silent? Shouldn't we include a warning of the tribulation to also try and prepare so we can survive as best as we can? My questions are not rhetorical or a setup. You seem agitated and ready for confrontation I am simply trying to figure this all out myself
That there isn't any scripture teaching the pre-tribulation rapture means that position has no basis. 1 Corinthians 15:52 says the rapture occurs at the "last trumpet". Since there are trumpets during the tribulation, the rapture cannot happen before it. The question is settled. If you want to prepare for a tribulation, feel free.
I don't believe in the pre-trib rapture and I have done at least a little preparation- what I am able to do- and of course I would recommend others do the same. We are not "made for" the tribulation, but some of us may unfortunately have to go through it. All the original apostles of Christ were forced to go through the worst kind of tribulations for their testimonies. Are we better than they were?
The church will be equipped through a reformation that will go on soon(already started) to be able to endure the tribulation. We're no better than the generation that was fed to the lions. I think
We can all pick out scripture to support what we believe. Our church believes we will go through the entire tribulation. I have listened to their points from scripture and sure, it could support what they are saying. I've heard others who use other scripture and indeed those verses can also support we will be raptured before the tribulation. My view, based on my understanding from what I have read in scripture, is we will not go through the tribulation. Isn't the tribulation God's judgement on the earth? My husband and I both discussed this topic and have come to the conclusion that if we are wrong on being taken out, we are at least right in our faith in an all sustaining God who is faithful to protect and provide. To me the great tribulation is a wake up call from God to a Godless society. I already have had my wake up call and I, in a moment was held guilty before a sinless savior, and all I had done was laid bare before him. I had no defense on my own. Guilty. But in a moment as my heart melted within me and I through tears asked pardon for all that I had done, even everything that I had yet to do, His blood covered me and cleansed me of my sin and my guilt/ my shame and I was filled with his Spirit confirming, yes I even I was forgiven and never would endure his wrath. In my 31 years walking in Christ I have heard many different ideas about God, rapture, free will vs. predestined. And in the more modern churches emerging I even hear things that scare me about as much as going through the tribulation does. One thing however remains....God is still in control. He has always been faithful and every trial and tribulation I've gone through in my 65 years He has only shown me more of who He is. If we go through a tribulation He will still be the rock that we cling to, the mercy that we need. And if we die in the tribulation......we'll only be home sooner. Our lives are always in His capable hands.
The G.tribulatioon is NOT the same as the Wrath of God... The G.T is the Wrath of satan.. He will make war with the Saints and he will overcome them. REV 14. That's the G.T. Its the testing of our Faith who really really the TRUE follower of Christ. Separation of the real gold from the counterfeit one!!!. Then after the G.tribulatioon then The coming of our Lord Jesus CHRIST to take His Bride home then the Wrath of GOD pours down to the DISOBEDIENCE.!
Jesus says himself he will return after these things at the sound of a trumpet, where his angels gather the elect. When does that happen in Revelation? The 7th trumpet. If Jesus said it, thats how its happening.
15:51-52 The resurrection will happen AFTER THE LAST TRUMPET. 1 Thessalonians 4:16 The dead in Christ shall rise first. The last trumpet occurs AFTER the tribulation and the dead in Christ rise first- no pretrib rapture
Thank you, thank you! I long ago searched the scriptures all the typical verses quoted by those who believe in the pre-trib, and didn't see it at all. I have long felt those teaching such a doctrine are doing a great harm to the body of Christ. Instead of educating and helping people train to prepare for the coming suffering they are given a false illusion they will escape what is coming, which, I believe, will contribute to the great falling away; imagine how devastated and confused they will be when the trouble starts and they are still here. Appreciate you Dr. Brown! Keep up the good work!
R Het So you say that pretribbers are failing to prepare, but in Paul's epistles not once does it say prepare for the tribulation. So I guess by your thought Paul has failed also.
+livingforJesus: There isn't one verse any where in the Bible teaching a pre-trib rapture. You're wrong about the KJV and you're wrong about the pre-trib rapture. You're consistently wrong. 1 Corinthians 15:52 says the rapture occurs at the "last trumpet". Since there are trumpets during the tribulation, the rapture cannot happen before it.
Just by warning you you are being given the chance to prepare. If someone says "a train is coming" and you are standing on the tracks, do you need them to say "move" in order to understand that you should do it?
+livingforJesus: Where is even one scripture that teaches a pre-tribulation rapture? 1 Corinthians 15:52 says the rapture occurs at the "last trumpet". Since there are trumpets during the tribulation, the rapture cannot happen before it.
The problem with most pre-trib Rapture people, is that they confuse the tribulation with the wrath of God. Both pre and post both agree that we are not appointed to wrath as Christian's. But pre-trib folks believe that the tribulation is the wrath of God, but they are two separate things according to scripture. You either believe what Jesus taught in Matthew 24 or you believe what man says
Hey Dr. Brown, I love the show. Thanks for always having interesting guests. This time I thought you could have done a better job being a devil's advocate applying scrutiny to Mr. Keener's propositions. I think that many of the pre-trib arguments, even though some may espouse them, the refutation of some of them effectively amounted to refuting stawman arguments. Moreover, you did not apply scrutiny to Mr. Keener's explanations. In both cases, it would be better to have an actual pre-trib advocate present the pre-trib arguments and scrutinize the responses. This interview came across as a bash-the pre-trib-position fest. Doing a good job of teasing out the truth of Scripture is not necessarily an instantaneous event as much as we might like it to be so, but a much longer process of comparing Scripture with Scripture, and sadly, in mine experience few are those who are willing or have the patience to do it. Hopefully our goal in this exercise is to know and understand the truth.
+Ben Johnson: If you believe in the fiction of the pre-tribulation, you have blinders on. You can't show even one scripture that even suggests a pre-tribulation rapture.
does it matter...pre mid, or post....be ready for the hour no mans knows....I think if God want to shows us he would of, he didn't so it's not for us to know....not fiction, it is just a guess at best. This is the 1st time I've listen to Dr. Brown he is stumbling around with no comment??? He always had good points, but if you listen to him he has nothing concrete...either way...I tell people, be ready.....
On the "descended to hell" issue: the word "hell" used to mean the realm of the dead, I.e. Sheol or Hades, and not the place of eternal punishment (Gehenna or Tartaros). Hence, the word is nowadays usually avoided in the Apostles' Creed. The passage never meant that Jesus descended into Gehenna and no church ever taught that. It is a misunderstanding.
I love how Dr Arnold sees where things fit as he sees God sees it and i feel he has that gift of rightly deviding the word.I notice that it is mostly when ppl take Israel outta the Scriptures that we end up interpreting Scriptures backward-forward instead of the right way...
Hi larry and faith filoa, Israel and the church are one. We, the wild branches, are grafted into the root of Israel. We do not replace them. The tribulation saints are our brethren, they sre not divided from the bride of Christ. They are not saved, except by the blood of the lamb......the same Holy spirit that dwells within us, will be in them. The dead in Christ will rise first.
Dr Arnold identifies the church as n entity composed of both jews n non jewish ppl. The day of Pentecost is the birth date of the Church until the Rapture. God will deal with The Jews during the Troublesome days known as the Tribulation period bt ur right to an extent. Arnold teaches theres a clear distinction of the Church, Old Testament Saints, the tribulation saints etc... n so the church must be clearly defined n i trust that Arnolds on track. Yes the same Blood of the Messiah Yeshua will save us all in any given time in history in the future but these promises made that Paul talks abt in the epistles are specifically for the Church not for a time beyond the Church age..
Amen. Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and Hebrews 12:22-24, modern Dispensational Theology falls apart, and the pretrib removal of the Church falls with it. The Capitol "C" Church, as we use the word today, is not found in the entire Book of Revelation. Individual church bodies in ancient Asia Minor are found. In Revelation 12:11 we find those under the blood of the Lamb. A person cannot be under the blood of the Lamb and not be a part of the New Covenant Church of Jesus Christ. Verse 12 of this passage proves at least part of the tribulation period is the wrath of Satan upon the people of God. Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time. "It may come as a surprise to most pre-Trib prophecy students that the post-Trib position (in its primitive form) is the oldest point of view." The quotation above is from the book "Will You Escape The Tribulation? RAPTURE [Under Attack]", by Tim LaHaye, copyright 1998, Page 197. The gathering of the Church is described at the end of 1 Thess. Chapter 4, and the timing of the event is found in chapter 5. The word “But” in the first verse of chapter 5 connects the two chapters, and the words “we” and “sleep” in verse 10 of chapter 5 prove the two chapters are connected.
I’d love to listen to this but chi early there’s a commercial every couple of minutes. Is it more important to make a few extra dollars or to spread the gospel?
Dear brothers, Peter was crucified and other apostols killed too, but John not. A lot of christians lived until the Lord called them (Billy Graham). Chineese and Indian christians that have been killed are destined to get a crown, but those crowns are not for every christians. What is the difference with a brother in Christ who dead 2 months ago with cancer, after suffering 2 years. So, this is not an argument to post-trib posture. I can't understand how to comfort one another telling that they have to pass trough G.T. Glod blees you all!
The 1970’s was a miraculous time for so many inheriting the kingdom of God. I was born again in 1975. From day one, I loved studying eschatology. Anticipating Jesus’ return at any moment was so exciting. The Late Great Planet Earth was my favorite book. Yet the more I studied, the more questions I had. Finding answers always led to a frustrating dead end. In 1990, an answer to prayer changed what I always believed. My eyes were miraculously opened to the truth. Understanding the timing of our gathering at His coming is profound, yet so simple. The Day of the Lord will not overtake the overcomers watching for the events of the six seals. (1 Thes. 5:4, 2 Thes. 2:1-4, Rev. 3:3; 6:1-17)
I dont know what bible you people read from. In The rapture Jesus WONT come, nobody will see him, we will just disappear "in a twinking of an eye" and will meet Jesus in the air. On the 2nd coming, AFTER THE TRIBULATION every eye will see Jesus and the millenium will begin. 2 different separate events.
Ask yourself this. What gives God more glory, bailing his children out in the most critical time on earth or his Saints taking it on the chin despite all odds and glorifying God through faith in the face of evil...
Regarding 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4, Renald Showers writes “Paul is not teaching here that the apostasy and revelation of the man of sin have to take place before the Rapture takes place. What he’s saying is, the apostasy and the revelation of the man of sin, or the Antichrist, have to take place before the Day of the Lord begins.”
One would need to show that the pre-trib rapture in fact IS part of God's word. I never said God's words are nonsense of course- but pre-trib rapture is not IN God's word!
+Paul Rock: We know there is no pre-tribulation rapture. 1. There is not one verse in all the Bible teaching it. That's why no one believed in a pre-tribulation rapture until John N. Darby made it up in the 1830s. 2. The Lord Jesus specifically prayed that the church NOT be taken out of the world (John 17:15). For there to be a pretribulation rapture, the Father would have to not listen to the Son. 3. 1 Corinthians 15:52 says the rapture occurs at the "last trumpet". Since there are trumpets during the tribulation, the rapture cannot happen before it.
yeoberry 1.Luke 21:36 there is a possibility of escape if we are ready, 1 Thessalonians 4:15,17 those are alive and remain (possibly saints taken earlier that were not left) Revelation 3:10(reward for faithfulness escaping event, Revelation 12:5, 10-12, man child taken to the throne 10-12 demonstrates a group of believers Revelation 14:1-5 shows a group of believers following the Lord Well by your logic, doctrines of grace aren't in scripture until Augustine or even eternal security by some believers that want to go back to scriptures and the Church Fathers. Some doctrines are plainly stated while others are found through, studying, God teaching us and helping us apply knowledge. Darby had other issues as well and I'm fine with pointing out those things. Did you know he was part of an assembly with BW Newton who was post trib and also knew saints who believe like I do of a partial rapture? My point is we don't divide over this but willingly lay out different views for each other. Also for me to not to hold bitterness towards any believer for any reason. 2. Being a disciple of Christ is serious and real for all believers. Jesus wants us to serve Christ and be ready to serve him. If saints are ready before the tribulation, great, if not Christ will get them ready. 3. I agree with the final trumpet with saints being raptured 4. Do you think the elect can be deceived during the tribulation? Sounds pretty plain in the Olivet Discourse that it is possible. Sadly reformed and other Christian teachings takes that plain written word away. 5. Be blessed by the Lord. Let Christ be Lord of all His saints in every area of our life.
+elijah402 1. Not one of the verses you listed even hints at a pre-trib rapture. The doctrines of grace are clearly taught in scripture, repeatedly. 4. Actually, Jesus said the elect cannot be deceived. "If it were possible."
If I told my Son that he would never face my wrath does that mean he will never face trouble (tribulation) in this world? Absolutely not. Wrath is God's furious anger - we are free from that - but great tribulation was something Christ and all the Early church faced, its foolish to think we wont.
I agree that we must go through at least the first half of the tribulation. The reason being, in addition to the Scripture in context, is that God, Who is absolutely just and righteous, will not bring complete condemnatory judgement upon the world until the measure of sin is full. Just as He gave Pharoah and the Egyptians every chance to repent, before He brought final judgement upon them, so Hr will give the unbelievers the very best chance possible to repent, by showing them the most powerful testimony of all: martyrs. The final martyrs will be the two witnesses, and the full wrath off God will be unleashed after they are resurrected. Just as the Israelites were protected from the final plagues, so God will keep His people from the wrath which He will unleash upon the world. Those with His seal will be umharmed till the ressurection.
And you know what restrains him now, so that in his time he may be revealed. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way. -2 Thessalonians 2:6-7 Who is the "HE" who restrains....( the MAN child of REV.12 : the BODY of Christ that will be given the Rod of Iron to Rule with Christ for 1000 years....The Church of Philadelphia , the Bride of Christ who is full of (OIL) of the Holy Spirit)!!!!!The Bible is clear the elect are the Jews and those who will make up the Remnant of Her(Israel) seed( after the Man Child=the Body of Christ=True on fire for Christ Church has been delivered REV.12 sign) the Remnant, those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus….The 5 wise Virgins will have LEFT and gone into the Marriage Supper of the LAMB with the POWER of the Holy Spirit (OIL)keeping their lamps=Witness for Christ, burning brightly) at the Appointed time on God's SKY CLOCK that strikes year 6000(120 Jubilees) this Sept. 23ed at the last trump, like PAUL told us :the last trump at the Feast of trumpets( It’s time to Crown OUR KING)....The entire BOOK of REVELATION is written in the STARS and plays out to the day starting from SEPT.23...IF you want to see this, be a good Berean and Check it out at www.REVELATIONCHAPTER12dotCOM.....BE BLESSED and miss the TRIB/G.TRIB .Jesus told the Sardis Church(The rep. of the modern day sleeping Church) IF they did not WAKE UP He would come on them like a thief.....This means if they did wake up they would KNOW the Time of His return...Jesus Himself REVERSED the “no man’s KNOWS the day or hour” in the opening verse of the BOOK of REVELATION...Jesus was angry with the religious leaders for not Knowing His First Coming, because it was written in the STARS...THE WISE MEN FROM the EAST KNEW how to read GOD's sky clock( His Bride KNOWS HOW to read them today)....David said Psalm 19:1-4 1 For the choir director. A Psalm of David. The heavens are telling of the glory of God; And their expanse is declaring the work of His hands. 2 Day to day pours forth speech, And night to night reveals knowledge. 3 There is no speech, nor are there words; Their voice is not heard. 4 Their line has gone out through all the earth, And their utterances to the end of the world. God made the Sun, moon and Stars to Pour forth Knowledge....Jesus told the people of Jerusalem Luke 19:43-44 43 For the days will come upon you when your enemies will barricade you and surround you and hem you in on every side. 44 They will level you to the ground - you and the children within your walls. They will not leave one stone on another, because you did not recognize the time of your visitation from God.” Jesus Side pray always that you be found worthy to escape these things coming upon the earth.... If you must endure the TRIB/G.TRIB. WHY PRAY? Jesus Promised to keep the Church of Philadelphia from the HOUR of trial that would come upon the entire world…He promised to come and take us where HE is in John 14…If He waits to take His Bride at the end of the G. Trib, JESUS comes to earth for 1000 years (the new heaven and earth come at the END) and John 14 NEVER came TRUE…Jesus does NOT break His promises.!. There is more then one catching away.... Jesus already took the old O.T. saints when He rose from the grave and went to present Himself to the Father as the first fruits offering.... That was a resurrection...so the First resurrection is first because there are 2 types: the righteous and the wicked.... there are several places in REV. that harvesting of the Righteous takes place, not Just once.... STUDY this closely.... Some are standing on a sea of glass.... these are the wise virgins....Some are Standing on a sea of glass mingled with Fire these are the ones who endured the TRIB/G.TRIB.....The Bible is very complex.....Take the very little time that you have left to KNOW what it really says. ASK THE HOLY SPIRIT to BE your TEACHER, beloved ones...JESUS is Own HIS WAY....THE Solar Eclipse WAS THE MID-NIGHT CRY THE BRIDEGROOM COMETH, GO YE OUT TO MEET HIM…..Be a Berean and get your OIL, make the Rapture Beloved ones….Or a Luke19:43-44 TO the MAX is at your DOOR.
Revelation 8:1, there was silence in heaven for half an hour. why? Cause everybody is on earth taking away the believers. The church will go thru the tribulation just as Israel went thru the 10 plagues in Egypt.
YOURE RIGHT AND WRONG I FOUND THE ANSWER SIR: ITS IS AND WAS A MYSTERY SHARE THIS ON ALL THE DEBATE CHANNELS AND VIDEOS LETS EVANGELIZE ON LINE ASK ME IF YOU WANT THE SOURCE
i searched and i searched only Jesus could reveal this mystery post trib both KINDA are right BE HAPPY ITS A GREAT DAY READ: TRIBULATION testimony of a sister who talked with the Lord : I said, "My Lord, the church is not ready, how are You ready for the big day?" The Lord showed me in a vision all the churches of my city closed and the soldiers were allowed to invade several houses of the brothers. I asked the Lord, "Will the church go through the great tribulation? The church will not survive." The Lord said, "Daughter, the church will not go through all the tribulation, it is necessary that My people see the Antichrist to awaken.” I asked, “Lord, has it got to be this way; the church cannot go up before the great tribulation? He said, “For if I come before this sign many will not awaken. You must go through trials to remember Me and seek My presence. Remember the three young men of the furnace, they went through a great trial, had to pass through the fire to be purified and approved. Remember Joshua and Caleb who have passed through the great tribulation of the wilderness. They had their faith increased and they inherited the earth that exudes milk and honey. The church that will be preserved will also inherit eternal life in Heaven. That little time that my church will suffer on earth will be a small tribulation; she will not go through all tribulation; it will be as a watershed and all who are on earth will know who the true believers are. That affliction that is coming upon the earth will serve to ripen My fruits for the harvest. Are not all the fruits that belong to Me? When this persecution comes on the earth many will fear when it becomes hard and many will drop My name to not suffer persecution; they will stay behind for the great tribulation."
The church was not here for any of Daniel's previous 69 weeks, so why would we be here for any of the 70th week of a period of time where the bible says Jesus lays waste to the entire Earth and very few people remain. Wake up folks the tribulation is about getting rid of people like in the days of Noah.
+COLA FIZZ: You can't show even one scripture that even suggests a pre-tribulation rapture. If you think the Bible teaches a pre-tribulation rapture, you don't know how to right handle (not "divide" -- that's a bad KJV interpretation) the Word of Truth.
And you know what restrains him now, so that in his time he may be revealed. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way. -2 Thessalonians 2:6-7 Who is the "HE" who restrains....( the MAN child of REV.12 : the BODY of Christ that will be given the Rod of Iron to Rule with Christ for 1000 years....The Church of Philadelphia , the Bride of Christ who is full of (OIL) of the Holy Spirit)!!!!!The Bible is clear the elect are the Jews and those who will make up the Remnant of Her(Israel) seed( after the Man Child=the Body of Christ=True on fire for Christ Church has been delivered REV.12 sign) the Remnant, those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus….The 5 wise Virgins will have LEFT and gone into the Marriage Supper of the LAMB with the POWER of the Holy Spirit (OIL)keeping their lamps=Witness for Christ, burning brightly) at the Appointed time on God's SKY CLOCK that strikes year 6000(120 Jubilees) this Sept. 23ed at the last trump, like PAUL told us :the last trump at the Feast of trumpets( It’s time to Crown OUR KING)....The entire BOOK of REVELATION is written in the STARS and plays out to the day starting from SEPT.23...IF you want to see this, be a good Berean and Check it out at www.REVELATIONCHAPTER12dotCOM.....BE BLESSED and miss the TRIB/G.TRIB .Jesus told the Sardis Church(The rep. of the modern day sleeping Church) IF they did not WAKE UP He would come on them like a thief.....This means if they did wake up they would KNOW the Time of His return...Jesus Himself REVERSED the “no man’s KNOWS the day or hour” in the opening verse of the BOOK of REVELATION...Jesus was angry with the religious leaders for not Knowing His First Coming, because it was written in the STARS...THE WISE MEN FROM the EAST KNEW how to read GOD's sky clock( His Bride KNOWS HOW to read them today)....David said Psalm 19:1-4 1 For the choir director. A Psalm of David. The heavens are telling of the glory of God; And their expanse is declaring the work of His hands. 2 Day to day pours forth speech, And night to night reveals knowledge. 3 There is no speech, nor are there words; Their voice is not heard. 4 Their line has gone out through all the earth, And their utterances to the end of the world. God made the Sun, moon and Stars to Pour forth Knowledge....Jesus told the people of Jerusalem Luke 19:43-44 43 For the days will come upon you when your enemies will barricade you and surround you and hem you in on every side. 44 They will level you to the ground - you and the children within your walls. They will not leave one stone on another, because you did not recognize the time of your visitation from God.” Jesus Side pray always that you be found worthy to escape these things coming upon the earth.... If you must endure the TRIB/G.TRIB. WHY PRAY? Jesus Promised to keep the Church of Philadelphia from the HOUR of trial that would come upon the entire world…He promised to come and take us where HE is in John 14…If He waits to take His Bride at the end of the G. Trib, JESUS comes to earth for 1000 years (the new heaven and earth come at the END) and John 14 NEVER came TRUE…Jesus does NOT break His promises.!. There is more then one catching away.... Jesus already took the old O.T. saints when He rose from the grave and went to present Himself to the Father as the first fruits offering.... That was a resurrection...so the First resurrection is first because there are 2 types: the righteous and the wicked.... there are several places in REV. that harvesting of the Righteous takes place, not Just once.... STUDY this closely.... Some are standing on a sea of glass.... these are the wise virgins....Some are Standing on a sea of glass mingled with Fire these are the ones who endured the TRIB/G.TRIB.....The Bible is very complex.....Take the very little time that you have left to KNOW what it really says. ASK THE HOLY SPIRIT to BE your TEACHER, beloved ones...JESUS is Own HIS WAY....THE Solar Eclipse WAS THE MID-NIGHT CRY THE BRIDEGROOM COMETH, GO YE OUT TO MEET HIM…..Be a Berean and get your OIL, make the Rapture Beloved ones….Or a Luke19:43-44 TO the MAX is at your DOOR.
+Cola: The KJV is not the best translation. It's an early 17th century Anglican translation based on latter, more corrupted manuscripts. All of the Bible is inspired and profitable (2 Tim. 3:15ff). All of it is for all the people of God.
If believers must be raptured as the only means to be protected from Gods wrath, then how can the elect be in it and avoid Gods wrath? Shouldn’t they be raptured the second they are born again, which would mean not one but many raptures?
Brother, here are some more scriptures calling us to responsibility in the final 7 years of this age. We have Micah 2:12-13? Who is the Breaker”? Is He Messiah? Might Jesus be the Deliverer spoken of throughout Holy Scripture? And why is He coming to deliver? Are there Christian and pre-christian captives in the hopper, people being processed at the end of the age? Is there not a “Court of the Gentiles”? Is it really just a “Jewish exclusion area”?? Micah 2 12 I will surely assemble, O Jacob, all of thee; I will surely gather the remnant of Israel; I will put them together as the sheep of Bozrah, (under Esau), as the flock in the midst of their fold: they shall make great noise by reason of the multitude of men. (like a huge noisy Bible camp meeting). 13 The Breaker is come up before them: they have broken up, and have passed through the gate, and are gone out by it: and their king shall pass before them, and the LORD on the head of them. EndTimePilgrim.org/Bozexile.htm and EndTimePilgrim.org/Bozflight.htm Have we read Revelation chapter 12? Are we absolutely sure the woman is “Just the Jews”? EndTimePilgrim.org/woman.htm Are we under the blood of Christ? If so, as we read Ephesians 2:11-17 answer this question. Do we belong to the Congregation-Commonwealth of Israel??? Is “Jacob’s trouble really “Just Jewish trouble”? EndTimePilgrim.org/COI.htm See also EndTimePilgrim.org/posttrirap.htm And the crux of the matter? Is it not our true bridal devotion, - or lack thereof. EndTimePilgrim.org/bloodcove.htm We take our commissioning papers to our lawyer. We ask him when our commission expires. Is it really seven years before the end of the age? What did Jesus say? EndTimePilgrim.org/GreatCom.htm The bad apple CIA says “fear is the key”. Has the Western Church been led astray and allowed fear to trump faith? Is Pre-trib lore a “doctrine of desertion” in the face of craven faithless fear? What did our apostle Paul have to say in Acts 27 about desertion, and “going AWOL”? see EndTimePilgrim.org/Acts27.htm Teachers get a more strict accounting.
From actual scripture the rapture is just not there. Thess is talking about the endtimes on Christs second return. Very clear. none of the earllests church fathers or jesus ever mentioned that. now I can be convinced but from all ive heard and read,so far its not clear at all that it will happen.
The last half of Daniel's 70 th week, which is called the great tribulation is not God's wrath it is Satan wrath, God's wrath is found in (rev. 16 ) God will not pour out his wrath on his church.
Paul said WE who are alive ''''''',,,,,,, before That Day, what day ? The Day of The Lord COULD ( Mattew 24 and mark 13) The day of the lord could NOT come till the temple was destroyed, NOT ONE STONE WOULD BE LEFT UPON ANOTHER 1..... We who are Alive ( his life time ) 2...... Not one stone upon another 3 .... That day can't come till theres a falling away 4 .... The apostate 5 ....the REVEALING of the man of sin 6 ... THE ABOMINATION 7 ... EVERY eye will see HIM Paul Expected the Rapture Before the Temple was destroyed in 70 AD
Hallelujah! I thought I was the only person who believed that there is no rapture at all! All the verses that the Christians use are actually pertaining to Messiahs second coming. I am halfway through listening to this discussion and I have to point out one thing that I have not heard yet. Believing in a pre-tribulation rapture is basically antisemitic! The quiet pride behind the belief is, “we Gentile believers will be caught up in the air and the Jews will have to stay and suffer the rejection of their Messiah through the tribulation!” Nothing could be further from the truth since God has a heart for His people and the gospel is always to go to them first which is pointed out numerous times in the book of Romans. In fact, Romans is a warning to gentile believers not to turn cocky against the Jewish people; which is exactly what the Roman Catholic Church did! when Dr. Brown asked, why do people believe this? The first words out of my mouth were, Escapist Theology!
"Antisemitic"? *SMH* You either, *A)* Don't u/stand the position, or *B)* Just misrepresenting it. Who will be left behind to endure the tribulation, will be _A N Y O N E_ who has not come to faith PRIOR to the rapture.
The Ark represents Christ and his spiritual salvation. Not a promise to save you from physical suffering. Did Jesus prevent the Apostles from being crucified and beheaded? No, he did not. You are not more special than they are, are you? Jesus saves our souls, but our bodies may still be destroyed.
+The Lion: The Lord Jesus specifically prayed that the church NOT be taken out of the world (John 17:15). Noah was not taken out of the world. The story illustrates God protecting His people IN the world.
+Lion: First, there can't be an illustration of something the Bible never teaches. Noah wasn't taken out of the world. So his going into the ark is not an illustration of the rapture at all. He's kept safe in the world, just as the Lord Jesus prayed for His people in John 17:15. Neither Lot nor Daniel were taken out of the world. The theme of Daniel is God's people being faithful and protected in the world, not beamed out of it.
the temple was destroyed in 70 AD Right ? Paul wrote 1 and 2 Thess in 50 to 51 AD right ? that means that Paul wrote these words 20 Years before the temple was destroyed.. And We that are alive and remain will be Caught Up Pauls use of the word WE to indicate that he expected to be Caught up in his life time.. ,,, so should we
So, get engaged, leave the bride (the church) to go and prepare a place for her in the father's house. Meantime let the bride get beaten up. Come back and take her out to dinner. You can stay, I'm going up.
The entire Dispensational Premillennial view of Eschatology is not supported consistently throughout Scripture. It is a cherry-picked view that didn’t come into the limelight until the mid 19th century. If you read scholars like John Gill, Albert Barnes and others that pre-date John Nelson Darby and C.I. Scofield the view is very different than what has become popular today by John MacArthur and Michael Brown and others. Check out Gary DeMar and Kenneth Gentry for a more solid and historically rooted view.
At 39:00 if you take the context in Luke 17:22-37 you know that all is calm (days of Noah and Lot) before the event. Jesus does not come back to earth. There is only a flash of light. The taken (paralambano in greek) means to be received. Jesus said he would receive us but we leave our flesh behind (verse 37). We don't disappear.
Here is my question. I here pastors say that we are the bride of Christ. But in Revolution, John was told to come up here and i will show you the bride of Christ the new Jerusalem coming down from heaven. And several places in the Bible, it says that we are the body of Christ. So how can we be both the body of Christ and the bride of Christ. It just don't make sense to me.
it makes sense, if you understand the body of christ is called the bride, before the new heaven and new earth are made, in which new Jerusalem comes down, out of a new heaven, in a new creation and the old heaven earth will be no more. The city will have His new name and will not be called new Jerusalem and the people will also will be sealed by this new name, same name, as the name of the new city. Rev 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write UPON him the NAME OF my God, and the NAME OF THE CITY of my God, WHICH IS new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him MY NEW NAME. Rev 21:1 And I saw A NEW heaven and A NEW earth: for the FIRST heaven AND the FIRST earth were PASSED AWAY; and there was no more sea.
i searched and i searched only Jesus could reveal this mystery post trib both KINDA are right BE HAPPY ITS A GREAT DAY READ: TRIBULATION testimony of a sister who talked with the Lord : I said, "My Lord, the church is not ready, how are You ready for the big day?" The Lord showed me in a vision all the churches of my city closed and the soldiers were allowed to invade several houses of the brothers. I asked the Lord, "Will the church go through the great tribulation? The church will not survive." The Lord said, "Daughter, the church will not go through all the tribulation, it is necessary that My people see the Antichrist to awaken.” I asked, “Lord, has it got to be this way; the church cannot go up before the great tribulation? He said, “For if I come before this sign many will not awaken. You must go through trials to remember Me and seek My presence. Remember the three young men of the furnace, they went through a great trial, had to pass through the fire to be purified and approved. Remember Joshua and Caleb who have passed through the great tribulation of the wilderness. They had their faith increased and they inherited the earth that exudes milk and honey. The church that will be preserved will also inherit eternal life in Heaven. That little time that my church will suffer on earth will be a small tribulation; she will not go through all tribulation; it will be as a watershed and all who are on earth will know who the true believers are. That affliction that is coming upon the earth will serve to ripen My fruits for the harvest. Are not all the fruits that belong to Me? When this persecution comes on the earth many will fear when it becomes hard and many will drop My name to not suffer persecution; they will stay behind for the great tribulation."
The book of revelation is about a harlot who gets punished ( burned) for her apostasy and the climax of the book is that the wife has made herself ready, if this has not already happened then we are looking at another punishment on the harlot city ( double jeopardy) it's not going to happen.
Question: doesn't there have to be a Rapture type of event on the last day? We know that "flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God". So, if you're a believer on the last day when the New Jerusalem is coming down from heaven you've got a serious problem. How will the believer enter into the New Jerusalem? Two verses clearly explain the problem and solution; Revelation 21:1-4, and 1 Corinthians 15:51-55. "Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God... there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying... Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed... and [when] this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: 'Death is swallowed up in victory'.” Death still reigns through the Millennium, so clearly there will be people who are labeled as "the dead in Messiah" who themselves must rise first. Furthermore; the people who are living when New Jerusalem comes down must be changed in order to enter. Death is "the last enemy [to be] destroyed" on the last day when New Jerusalem comes down. Our Lord and Savior said at what time He would raise up His Body (four times) in the Book of John: Jn 6:39 "... that of all He has given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day." Jn 6:40 "... [ whosoever] believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day." Jn 6:44 "... and I will raise him up at the last day" Jn 6:54 " whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day." In the Book of John, Martha concerning her brother's death said to our Lord and Savior " ...I know that he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day (Jn 11:24)". Clearly, John who wrote the Book of John, Martha, Paul, and our Lord and Savior Jesus all knew this to be true (so what's our problem?). Conclusion: there has to be a Rapture type of event on the last day.
TRIBULATION I said, "My Lord, the church is not ready, how are You ready for the big day?" The Lord showed me in a vision all the churches of my city closed and the soldiers were allowed to invade several houses of the brothers. I asked the Lord, "Will the church go through the great tribulation? The church will not survive." The Lord said, "Daughter, the church will not go through all the tribulation, it is necessary that My people see the Antichrist to awaken.” I asked, “Lord, has it got to be this way; the church cannot go up before the great tribulation? He said, “For if I come before this sign many will not awaken. You must go through trials to remember Me and seek My presence. Remember the three young men of the furnace, they went through a great trial, had to pass through the fire to be purified and approved. Remember Joshua and Caleb who have passed through the great tribulation of the wilderness. They had their faith increased and they inherited the earth that exudes milk and honey. The church that will be preserved will also inherit eternal life in Heaven. That little time that my church will suffer on earth will be a small tribulation; she will not go through all tribulation; it will be as a watershed and all who are on earth will know who the true believers are. That affliction that is coming upon the earth will serve to ripen My fruits for the harvest. Are not all the fruits that belong to Me? When this persecution comes on the earth many will fear when it becomes hard and many will drop My name to not suffer persecution; they will stay behind for the great tribulation."
Mathew 24:29-31 says the rapture is after the tribulation. Mathew 24:29-31. 29 Immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall GATHER together his ELECT from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
They say that the tribulation determines the time that the Jesus will arrive. True, but, we will be so busy during the last 3.5 years that we won't KNOW the time or hour that Jesus will come. Thus he will come like a thief in the night. I'm still trying to find a verse that says that Jesus will come twice or that those who accept Christ as Lord and Saviour during the 7 years will have eternal life as if there's a second chance rule. Also that Jesus has already come at that point and said that when he returns the Spiritual gifts will cease. Yet the bible talks about an increase in use of Spiritual gifts during this time period. Who will teach new Christians the way if we are taken up. How does God select who goes and who stays. Would he not want righteous people to lead the way above someone who is a bit lazy in the faith. Yet in a pre Trib ideology those who are righteous in faith would be taken up before the years of tribulation. To many plot holes in a pretrib eschatology in my opinion.
One of the greatest problems I see with this post trib rapture idea is that it makes out salvation to be of works. Like it or not the mark of the beast is an arminian device. Either our salvation is by grace alone without regard to our works or it is by faith plus works. If martyrdom is a REQUIREMENT for salvation then our salvation is not a gift. Our salvation is not paid for by the flesh & blood work of Jesus Christ alone but a pound of our flesh then becomes a part of the payment.
Hi all. Jesus didn't didn't emphasize pre-trib. He didn't emphasize mid-trib. Neither did he emphasize post-trib. He did ask His disciples to *watch and pray*.
Pre Trib Eschatology has been taught since AD 100 in the epistle of BARNABAS amongst others like Irenaeus, in 'Against Heresies"...Ephraim of Nisibius (306-373BC) et al...From Revelation 4 the Church is in heaven. It's about Israel Rev 4 onwards. If post trib, how does the Marriage Supper of the Lamb fit in all this?...How does the parable of the 10 virgins fit? if not pre trib, how do you reconcile the Imminency of His return? ie expecting the Lord at any moment? 1 Timothy 6:14 1Thessalonians 4:16,17 2Thess 2:1?
Falelodge, you are correct; Dr. Brown is wrong. Add these arguments to your repertoire: . . 19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead. 20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast. 21 For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain. - Isaiah 26:19-21 . . When he comes "out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth", is that time we know as the time of great tribulation. Prior to that time, he invites his people to hide themselves "as it were for a little moment, *_until the indignation be overpast_* ." They hide themselves in their chambers (i.e - a place prepared for them, John 14:3); in his pavilion (Psalm 27:5); which is in heaven (Psalm 18:11). The invitation to "Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers . . ." occurs *after* a resurrection of the dead spoken of here in verse 19 (also in 1 Thessalonians 4:16,17), but *before* the indignation they hide themselves from. . . . Hebrews 9:28 says: "So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and *_unto them that look for him_* shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation." Apparently then, he does not appear to those _NOT_ looking for him. They then, would not receive that invitation. Therefore, it is of PARAMOUNT importance that we not only be doing what he commanded, but also are looking for his appearing! Flee from those that counsel you to be unconcerned with watching for your master's immediate return (MATTHEW 24:44-51). .
being I have certified copies of such writings I can say t is fact pre trib was never taught prior to 1830..Barnabas (40-100) knew John and all 12 of Jesus disciples, and traveled with Saint Paul to evangelize among the gentiles, wrote:"The final stumbling block approaches...for the whole [past] time of your faith will profit you nothing, unless now in this wicked time we also withstand coming sources of danger....then the evil one [Antichrist] may find no means of entrance...." (Epistle of Barnabas, 4). Polycarp (70-168) Johns apostle and knew Barnabas, wrote:"He comes as the judge of the living and the dead." (Epistle to the Philippians, II). Justin Myrtyr (100-167) a contemporary of Polycarp, wrote:"The man of apostasy [Antichrist], who speaks strange things against the Most High, shall venture to do unlawful deeds on the earth against us the Christians..." (Dialogue with Trypho, 110). Irenaeus (138-202) Polycarps apostle and knew Justin Myrtyr,wrote: "And they [the ten kings who will arise] shall lay Babylon waste, and burn her with fire, and shall give their kingdom to the beast, and put the church to flight" (Against Heresies, V,26). Tertullian (150-220) a contemporary of Irenaeus, wrote:"The souls of the martyrs are taught to wait [Rev.6:9,10,11]...that the beast Antichrist with his false prophet may wage war on the Church of God..." (On the Resurrection of the flesh, 25). Hyppolytus (158-240) a contemporary of Tertullian, wrote:"The one thousand two hundred and three score days (the last half of the week) during which the tyrant is to reign and persecute the church..." (Treatise on Christ and Antichrist, 61). Cyprian (200-258) a contemporary of Hyppolytus, wrote:"The day of affliction has begun to hang over our heads, and the end of the world and the time of the Antichrist to draw near, so that we must all stand prepared for the battle..." (Epistle, 55, 1). Victorinus (240-303) a contemporary of Cyprian, wrote:"...the times of Antichrist, when all shall be injured."(Commentary on the Appocalypse of the Blessed John, VI, 5). Lactantius (242-330) a contemporary of Victorinus, wrote:"And power will be given him [Antichrist] to desolate the whole earth for forty two months..." (Divine Institutes, VII, 17). Athanasius (293-373) a contemporary of Lactantius, wrote:"...they have not spared Thy servants, but are preparing the way for Antichrist." (History of the Arians, VIII, 79). Ephrain the Syrian (306-373) a contemporary of Athanasius,wrote: "Nothing remains then, except that the coming of our enemy, Antichrist, appear..." (Sermo Asceticus, I). Cyril of Jerusalem (315-386) a contemporary of Ephrain, wrote:"The church declares to you the things concerning Antichrist before they arrive...it is well that, knowing these things, thou shouldest make thyself ready beforehand." (Catechetical Lectures, 15, 9). Jerome (340-422) a contemporary of Cyril of Jerusalem, wrote:"I told you that Christ would not come unless Antichrist had come before." (Epistle 21). Chrysostom (345-407) a contemporary of Jerome, wrote:"...the time of Antichrist...will be a sign of the coming of Christ..."(Homilies on II Thessalonians 2:2-3) Augustine (354-430) a contemporary of Chrysostom, wrote:"But he who reads this passage [Daniel 12:1-13], even half asleep can not fail to see that the kingdom of Antichrist shall fiercely, for a short time, assail the church..." (The City of God, XX, 23). Venerable Bede (673-735) wrote: "[The Church's triumph will] follow the reign of Antichrist."(The Explanation of the Apocalypse, II, 8). Bernard of Clairvaux (1090-1153) wrote: "There remains only one thing--that the demon of noonday [Antichrist] should appear,to seduce those who still remain in Christ..."(Sermons on the Song of Songs, 33, 16). Roger Bacon (1214-1274) wrote: "...because of future perils [for the Church] in the times of Antichrist..." (Opus Majus, II, p. 634). John Wycliffe (1320-1384) wrote: "Wherefore let us pray to God that He keep us in the hour of temptation, which is coming on all the world, Revelation 3:10."(Writings of the Reverend and Learned John Wycliffe, D.D. p.155) Martin Luther (1483-1546) wrote:"[The book of Revelation] is intended as a revelation of things that are to happen in the future,and especially of tribulations and disasters for the Church..." (Works of Martin Luther, VI, p. 481). Menno Simons (1496-1561) a contemporary of Martin Luther,wrote: "...He [Jesus] will appear as a triumphant Prince and a victorious King to bring judgment. Then will those who persecute us look upon Him..." (Complete Writings...p. 622). John Calvin (1509-1564) a contemporary of Menno Simons, wrote: "We ought not to follow in our inquiries after Antichrist,especially where such pride proceeds to a public desolation of the Church." (Institutes, Vol. 2, p. 411). John Knox (1515-1572) a contemporary of John Calvin), wrote:"...the great love of God towards His Church, whom He pleased to forewarn of dangers to come, so many years before they come to pass...to wit, the man of sin, the Antichrist the ***** of Babylon."(The History of the Reformation..., I, p. 76). John Fox (1516-1587) a contemporary of John Knox, wrote:"...that second beast prophesied to come in the later time of the Church...to disturb the whole Church of Christ..."(Acts and Monuments, I). Daniel Whitby (1638-1726) wrote: "...after the fall of Antichrist, there shall be such a glorious state of the Church...so shall this be the Church of Martyrs, and of those who had not received the Mark of the Beast..." (A Paraphrase and Commentary, p. 696). Matthew Henry (1662-1714) a contemporary of Daniel Whitby,wrote: "Those who keep the gospel in a time of peace shall be kept by Christ in an hour of temptation [Revelation 3:10] ." (Commentary, VI, p. 1134). Jonathan Edwards (1703-1758) a contemporary of Matthew Henry, wrote: "...continuance of Antichrist's reign [when the Church is persecuted] did not commence before the year of Christ 479..." (A history of the Work of Redemption, p. 217). John Newton (1725-1807) a contemporary of Jonathan Edwards,wrote: "Fear not temptation's fiery day, for I will be thy strength and stay. Thou hast my promise, hold it fast, the trying hour [of] Rev 3:10, will soon be past." (The Works of the Rev. John Newton, Vol. II, p. 152). George Muller (1805-1898) wrote:"The scripture declares plainly that the Lord Jesus will not come until the Apostacy shall have taken place, and the man of sin shall have been revealed..." ("Mrs. Mueller's Missionary Tours and Labours, p. 148). R. Trench (1807-1886) a contemporary of George Muller, wrote:"...the Philadelphian church...to be kept in temptation, not to beexempted from temptation..." (Seven Churches of Asia, p. 183). Carl F. Keil (1807-1888) a contemporary of R.Trench, wrote:"...the persecution of the last enemy Antichrist against the church of the Lord..." (Biblical Commentary, Vol. XXXIV, p. 503). S. P. Tregelles (1813-1875) a contemporary of Carl F. Keil, wrote:"The Scripture teaches the Church to wait for the manifestation of Christ. The secret [pre-trib] theory bids us to expect a coming before any such manifestation."(The Hope of Christ's Second Coming, p. 71). Nathaniel West (1826-1906) a contemporary of S. P. Tregelles,wrote: "[The Pre-Trib Rapture] is built on a postulate (assume to be true), vicious in logic... repudiated by the early Church..." (The Apostle Paul and the "any moment" Theory, p. 30). Alexander Maclaren (1826-1910) a contemporary of Nathaniel West, wrote: "He will keep us in the mist of, and also from, the hour of temptation [Revelation 3:10]."(The Episles of John, Jude and the Book of Revelation, p. 266). M. Vincent (1834-1922) a contemporary of Alexander Maclaren, wrote: "The preposition 'from' implies, not a keeping from temptation, but a keeping in temptation [Revelation 3:10].." (Word Studies..., p. 466). Grattan Guinness (1835-1910) a contemporary of M.Vincent,wrote: "...the Church is on earth during the action of the Apocalypse..." (The Approaching End of the Age, p. 136). Theodor Zahn (1838-1933) a contemporary of Grattan Guinness,wrote:"He will preserve...at the time of the great temptation [Rev.3:10]." (Zahn-Kommentar, I, p. 305). I.T. Beckwith (1843-1936) a contemporary of Theodor Zahn, wrote:"The Philadelphians...are promised that they shall be carried in safety through the great trial [Rev. 3:10], they shall not fall." (The Apocalypse of John, p. 484). Robert Cameron (1845-1922) a contemporary of I.T. Beckwith,wrote:"The Coming for, and the Coming with, the saints, still persists, although it involves a manifest contradiction, two Second comings which is an absurdity." (emphasis mine) (Scriptural Truth About the Lord's Return, p. 639).
well sister, lets address what you claim.... first lets address who the church is..The sacrifice of Christ benefits all truly repentant sinners who have sincere faith and trust in Christ, but this benefit is conferred as God automatically baptizes all true believers in the Holy Spirit, which places them "into" the Body of Christ (1Cor.12:13) and that "Body" is the Church (Eph.1:22,23), with the result that all believers are "IN Christ" (2Cor.5:17). Being "in Christ" is the place of justification (Gal.2:17), redemption and forgiveness of sins (Eph.1:7). There is no other place, than in Christ's body, for those spiritual transactions in the NT. It will only be people "in Christ" (and in his body), who have been crucified with him, who have died and been burried with him, and are made alive with him (read Rom.6:1-10). For anyone to be saved, God places Jews or Gentiles "in this one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross" (Eph.2:16)... and that one body of reconciliation is the Church (Eph.1:22-23). There will never be any other way to justification, reconciliation to God, redemption, resurrection and eternal life, than by being "IN Christ," which is in his body the Church...and anything else is another way of salvation (and really, another gospel) than is found in the Bible. With sound biblical doctrine we can conclude those in rev 12 verse 17 are in fact the church..
Now lets address the dead must raise first and when this can take place being Paul says we meet Jesus in the rather than heaven...Job Chapter 14 verse 12. The Bible reads "So man lieth down and riseth not till the heavens be no more. They shall not awake nor be raised out of their sleep." So this verse is very clearly stating that those who've died will not be resurrected, they will not live again until the heavens be no moreNow lets address the fact we meet Jesus in the clouds and escort Him right back to earth hence the second coming..Concerning the Lord’s visible, physical return, the apostle Paul tells us, “For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then WE which are alive and REMAIN shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet* ( Greek- apantesiς/ apantesis) the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.” [1 Thessalonians 4:16-17]The Greek word for “meet” used above, apantesis, is a very precise, and very unusual word. The sense is of “a going forth by a group of people to escort an arriver back into the city or the dwelling from which they had just come”, as the people of a city would go out to greet a returning victorious general or king. This particular word only appears in three other places in the entire New Testament: 1.) twice, in the parable of the wise and foolish virgins, a group who waited to go out and greet the bridegroom and then to escort him back to his dwelling place, back to the place from where they had just come [Matthew 25:1-12]; and, 2.) once, in Acts of the Apostles [Acts 28:14-15], which describes a group of people coming out from Rome to meet Paul and then escorting him back to Rome, from where they had just come! “Where we found brethren, and were desired to tarry with them seven days: and so we went toward Rome. And from thence, when the brethren heard of us, they came to meet (apantesiς) us as far as Appii forum, and the three taverns: whom when Paul saw, he thanked God, and took courage.” ALL of these cases clearly describe a GROUP of people GOING OUT to meet an INDIVIDUAL, and then shortly escorting HIM back to the place from which THEY had just come. IF we truly are Biblical literalists (as all Dispensationalists claim to be) we will understand that in the actual Rapture of the Church which is prophesied, when Christ comes, believers will be caught up to meet (apantesis) him in the air, and then to soon return WITH the Lord to the earth, but not in any predictable or specified amount of human time. All of which is IMPOSSIBLE with a pre-Trib/mid-Trib rapture of the Church, but ALL of which fits a post-Trib scenario perfectly.Since Paul says that, at the Rapture of the Church, we will meet the Lord Yeshua in the air and then immediately return with him to the earth, what does this do to the pre-Trib/mid-Trib theories which are the eschatological cornerstones of so many Laodicean churches today?
speaking of those foolish virgins...“And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.” [Matthew 25:10 - KJV] Dispensationalists generally teach that, immediately after the Rapture of the Church, all those who were removed from the earth are immediately taken to “heaven” to celebrate the “marriage supper of the Lamb” with “Jesus”. Not understanding the logical consequences of their own teaching, they often refer to the parable of the wise and foolish virgins as being a metaphor for their “pre-Trib” rapture scenario. But in that parable, as soon as the Bridegroom arrives, he goes in to the wedding feast with ONLY the wise virgins (those who were prepared) and the door is shut, and no one else is admitted after that. IF this really were a metaphor for the Lord’s return - as most dispensationalist Bible “experts” seem to consider it to be - and IF there were going to be a pre-Trib Rapture, this would necessarily mean that NO ONE ELSE COULD BE SAVED during the Tribulation, which theoretically happens AFTER the pre-Trib Rapture. Question :Since we know that people WILL be saved during the Tribulation (the souls beneath the altar, etc.), HOW can this parable from the Lord Yeshua be reconciled with a pre-/mid-Trib Rapture scenario?
If you're experiencing it, it will seem "great" to you. I think what makes the last one seem "great" is that the persecution of believers will be very widespread - more so than ever before.
The Bible says we will not know the day or the hour that he comes. But we are to know the season. We are to be watching for the signs. There are three generations spoken of in the Bible. 40 years 70 years and 120 years. Jesus said to learn the parable of the fig tree.
what i like about dr michael: there is so much room for discussion and disagreement in love, restoring in the spirit with brotherhood in yashua the anointed. bring the king!! 👑 what if some of the book has been added by unGodly men for unGodly purposes? how is that not possible? faith is not blind to the acts of men, nor that God may lead his beloved away. see: david and the census. if the book is the perfect word of God, how shall we presume to say we understand it and so reprove our brother as fallen or wicked or unworthy? it's the mark of a man. i don't want to be "taken" by God. i want to be led by God. the taken are the wicked, taken because they cannot be led.
The rapture seems to happen in this verse. Revelation 14:14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
I do not believe in rapture before tribulation. From reading the bible and comparing various scriptures that is not the conclusion I have drawn. The rapture occurs at the sixth seal (which saves us from the bowls of the wrath of God because we are not destined to experience God's wrath) and how do I know this? Matthew 24 states: "29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet.." The words 'immeadiately after the tribulation' lets me know Christians will experience some of the tribulation.... When you read Revelations 6:12 it states: "12 I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and [g]behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the [h]moon became like blood. 13 And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind......Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?” The descriptions in REV 6:12 and Matthew 24:29 are IDENTICAL (great earthquake, sun darkened, stars falling from heaven, people mourning at his coming, etc.) The rapture and the Great day of wrath are simultaneously occurring. It is so impt to study the scriptures because if ppl believe in PRE-TRIB RAPTURE...and they find themselves in the tribulation...they will think oh no, I have been left behind and get discouraged. When actually we should be looking to be raptured soon at that point and persevering until the end as the bible teaches.....
Dr Michael Brown, I'm surprised at you. I thought you knew the Bible. You have an, "Ask Dr Brown" program, yet you don't know the end times. The Bible teaches the pre-tribulation rapture. And nowhere does the Bible say the Church goes through the great tribulation period.
No description of His coming until Rev 19!!!! Mat 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? The disciples asked three questions #1 Tell us, when shall these things be? #2 and what shall be the sign of thy coming, #3 and of the end of the world? here is #2 Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Mar 13:24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, Mar 13:25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. Mar 13:26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. Mar 13:27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven. 1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. notice the same signs as Jesus gave in Math, Mar, and Paul in 1Th Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand? Revelation 6:12-14 is a description of the Lord coming as it has the same signs Jesus told the Disciples.
Being a Bible scholar is one thing, but being a Spirit led Bible scholar is another. The natural mind cannot understand the Bible which is a Spiritual book and can only be understood by the Holy Spirit. The Bible is perfectly clear that the Rapture of the Bride of the Lamb, when the Lord comes to the air for His Church, will be pre Tribulation. When the Son of Man, Jesus Christ, comes in glory at the end of the Tribulation at the second coming TO EARTH, it is also in black and white that the glorified saints will be WITH HIM. They cannot be with Him in glorified bodies like unto His body of glory, if they have not been previously raptured and changed into Christ likeness. The Lord comes Himself to receive us to Himself and take us to the Father's house, as fulfillment of John ch. 14 v 1-3. What happens at the second coming to earth is completely different and the angels are involved in gathering the 'elect' of Israel, the nations must be judged before entrance into the millennial reign on the earth for 1000 years. Try going to the Bible with an open mind and letting the Spirit teach you what is there. Do not go with your mind made up and try to fit your wrong teaching into what is taught.
There is no soft g in Hebrew. The English J used to be pronounced as Y. Correct pronunciation would be Yehovah, Yerushalem, Yericho, Yehudim, Yehudah, Yeshua, etc.
There are at least 4 different times to enter Heaven... For the Bride, there is an Escape before the Pre Trib Rapture... See Luke 21:36 The Pre Trib Rapture Paul Described. The mid Trib is also correct as well as the Post Trib, but the choice is yours...The choice is yours and it seems like a No Braimer, we want the first flight out... The Harvests also describe the different times to leave. Too bad this is not understood by the masses of people...
at 1:18 about John asking if He's the one.. i always took it as John becoming disillusioned and into depression about being in jail if the real messiah his friend is walking around, but your point is good and perhaps the other half of the equation !! or even the 'whole :0, ive not heard that one before-- surprisingly... i really enjoyed this show
I think its wrong to alter Scripture jst cz things is happening arnd us. I think Jacobs Suffering is quite a distinct event from our everyday persecutions. That is what i think Pre Trib Schollars emphesize as a Suffering so great like its never happened b4. Every part of Earth will have this and that is what needs to be looked at..
i was like you before a houre a go then i read this : a testimony TRIBULATION I said, "My Lord, the church is not ready, how are You ready for the big day?" The Lord showed me in a vision all the churches of my city closed and the soldiers were allowed to invade several houses of the brothers. I asked the Lord, "Will the church go through the great tribulation? The church will not survive." The Lord said, "Daughter, the church will not go through all the tribulation, it is necessary that My people see the Antichrist to awaken.” I asked, “Lord, has it got to be this way; the church cannot go up before the great tribulation? He said, “For if I come before this sign many will not awaken. You must go through trials to remember Me and seek My presence. Remember the three young men of the furnace, they went through a great trial, had to pass through the fire to be purified and approved. Remember Joshua and Caleb who have passed through the great tribulation of the wilderness. They had their faith increased and they inherited the earth that exudes milk and honey. The church that will be preserved will also inherit eternal life in Heaven. That little time that my church will suffer on earth will be a small tribulation; she will not go through all tribulation; it will be as a watershed and all who are on earth will know who the true believers are. That affliction that is coming upon the earth will serve to ripen My fruits for the harvest. Are not all the fruits that belong to Me? When this persecution comes on the earth many will fear when it becomes hard and many will drop My name to not suffer persecution; they will stay behind for the great tribulation."
I think Brown and Hitchcock would be an awesome debate on this topic. The rapture topic is horrible to listen to when you bring on a like minded person. It ends up being an echo chamber instead of an exchange of differences. For instance the "secret rapture" arguement is a red herring. I dont care if the world sees him or not, it makes no difference on the timing of the rapture at all. Its just a red herring arguement. Id like to see a formal debate on this, I think that would be awesome.
What about the people who already died horrible a horrible ,painful death? T am sure that to them that was their tribulation . People that are killed in storms and disasters also to them it’s the end of their world here on earth. I had 2 sons that died. 1 was only 30 and the other was 35. So who thinks that they are better then the next person? We are all appointed to die , flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God. At this point I myself find it hard to believe in a rapture. Maybe the last Christian’s that were caught up were already physically dead. Idk. I have a very hard time with revelation. However I don’t believe that the church will be taken out. God is not a respecter of persons. This world is a great big lie and tribulation! I can’t wait to be with the Lord.
Mr. Brown, it is a shame you do not stand up against false prophets and false teachers, learned a lot from you but need to distance from you now unless you repent and call these people out by name how the Bible says to and gives several examples of, you should stop being so passive about people who are proven to be deceived and deceiving others, your just as bad sir
Dear Dr. Brown. It is marvelous how the Lord had elevated you to such a status. Blessed be the Lord foe all the favor he had shown you in regard to all the supetnatural open doors of ministry. My husband is a retired Army chaplain. He has written a book on post tribulation theory. He has profound scriptural documentation of the post trib theory. The book is being published now. I am sure he would love to discuss his findings with you. He was ordained through a church in Georgia where wr also ministered to a church that Sid Roth attended. GOD BLESS YOU.
Kathryn Basal Dr. Brown has not been elevated to his position by God, but by the kingdom of darkness. How do I know? He simply will not stand for truth and call out heretics by name, instead he does conferences with them
I reject all scripture that is not in line with Yeshua's words to his flock. I used to follow the pre-tribulation rapture. When I got older, I studied the bible for decades and decades on each subject. Comparing the living prophecies in the old testament and aligning them up with the spoken prophecies. There is no pre-deliverance or similar pre-tribulation prophecy in the old testament. The Jews were right there in Egypt through the times of tribulation, everyone else was going through in the region. They were only removed after those times. Noah and his family lived right there on earth through all those horrible times and were right there up until they got in the ark (still on earth) and the flood took the evil away. The same with the Egyptians when the waters came back together and took them away. The Lords people were right there on earth. All those early disciples suffered the Tribulations of the Last Days. Do you think I am wrong in saying they were living in the last days? "This is that spoken of by the prophet Joel. In the Last Days, I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh..." Peter said that. They were in the last Days and we are in the Last Days. 1 Day is 1,000 years and 1,000 years is a day. "..He will raise us up on the third day" Yeshua (Jesus) was in the earth for three days and on the third day he rose and left the grave. It was two days ago that Yeshua was here on earth. It was two days ago that Peter quoted Joel on the day of Pentecost. The Last Days are the Last Three Days and we are only Two Days into the Last Days. Everything that was to come, is prophesied in the Old Testament as they are a Shadow of Things to Come. Joseph's life is a perfect prophecy of Yeshua. Brothers did not believe in him. Betrayed and silver exchanged. Handed over to the gentiles. Accused of a crime he was not guilty of, yet accepted the punishment. In prison, two thieves, one freed, one not. Jesus on the cross, two thieves, one freed, one not. Then exalted to rule and the only difference was the thrones they sat on. That is one Living Prophecy. Jeremiah is another one, so is Daniel, so are the 3 Hebrew Children, so is Solomon and Elijah and Sampson. All the parallels are there. Yeshua said, "If it were possible, even the most elect would be fooled. If it were possible." It is not impossible, because the most Elect are raptured. It is because they are the most Elect and have his Holy Spirit. Again, I will state that I reject any scripture after Yeshua (Jesus) that is contrary to his teaching on the subject. I certainly reject people twisting scripture away form Yeshua's teaching on the subject.
yeoberry "If you reject any scripture, you are wrong and are a rebel against the Lord Jesus" You are wrong. It does not say that in any scripture and so you are altering biblical law, so by your own words, you just rejected Yeshua (Jesus). "The word of God can not be broken." is not in any scripture in the bible. I spent over 40 years studying the Bible, both religions of the Bible and comparing it to other world religions. You are making up fake scripture, that is the second time you lied and twisted scripture. You are really selling your soul to Sheol and should just stop.
+Fla-buschaft Prepper: The Lord Jesus said in John 10:35 "If he called them gods to whom the word of God came-and Scripture cannot be broken-". You're wrong and exposed as a fraud.
Paul said WE who are alive ''''''',,,,,,, before That Day, what day ? The Day of The Lord COULD ( Mattew 24 and mark 13) The day of the lord could NOT come till the temple was destroyed, NOT ONE STONE WOULD BE LEFT UPON ANOTHER 1..... We who are Alive ( his life time ) 2...... Not one stone upon another 3 .... That day can't come till theres a falling away 4 .... The apostate 5 ....the REVEALING of the man of sin 6 ... THE ABOMINATION 7 ... EVERY eye will see HIM Paul Expected the Rapture Before the Temple was destroyed in 70 AD
The tribulation is God's judgment against the unbelieving world. NOT those who belong to Christ. Paul said we are NOT appointed to God's wrath. And that we're going to meet Jesus in the clouds. When Jesus comes again, then everyone will see Him. Therefore, there is the Harpazo, the taking away AKA the rapture, and then the SECOND coming of Christ. How in this world can people who SAY that they belong to Christ, NOT see this!? You can all can stay here during the tribulation, but as for me and my brethren, we're leaving! Have fun!
The time of Jacob's trouble (Jeremiah 30:7), i.e., what is commonly called "the great tribulation, (Jesus called it "a time of great tribulation") is not the wrath of God. The time of great tribulation is Satan's wrath against the Jewish people and those who stand with them. It is 3 1/2 years (or 42 months or 1260 days; read Daniel), not seven years. It begins in the middle of Daniel's 70th week, when Satan is evicted by Michael from heaven (Daniel 12 and Revelation 12). "Christians are always safe from God's wrath." Yes. The Israelites were safe in Goshen from God's wrath against Egypt. They were preserved in the wrath. Noah and his family did not escape the flood; they were preserved through it in the ark. But let's say for the sake of argument that this "escape theology", as I call it, is, in fact, true. The question I have for anyone who claims to love the Jewish people and believes the pre-trib theory correct is this: Would you be willing to be "left behind" during the time of Jacob's trouble in order to stand with the Jews in their time of distress? Or is your claim to love the Jewish people just lip service? The answer to that question exposes the heart. This is a heart issue. Those getting slaughtered in the second half of Daniel's 70th week, if the church is not here, are the Jewish people. And if the pre-tribulation doctrine is correct, then Jacob's trouble becomes Jacob's problem. Those who claim to love the Jewish people should stop and think about that, and then examine your heart.
One other thing that has not been discussed is the feast days. Jesus' first coming fulfilled the four Spring feast days on their day in the same year. It seems obvious then that His second coming will fulfill the 3 Fall feast days and we could then believe they will be fulfilled in the same year. If that is true then the feast of the trumpet which is considered the rapture would be fulfilled in the same year as the day of atonement and the feast of tabernacles.
Please open the KJV to 2 Thessalonians 2, Mark 13, Matthew 24, Luke 21, & Revelation 6, & compare scripture with scripture, learning not the day or the hour, but rather the timing of end time events in relation to one another. Imagine watching, waiting, and anticipating Jesus Christ returning before the tribulation, only to witness the events unfolding, yet Jesus Christ not coming at the time He is expected by the misinformed. Then, “behold, a pale horse”, bringing lying signs and wonders, and something doesn’t add up. I have been working to bring the truth, according to scripture, to my brothers and sisters in Jesus Christ, yet they will not listen. I’m frustrated, but I will not give up on my fellow believers, and Jesus Christ never has, and never will, because you are the elect in Christ, and your place in Heaven is sealed by the blood of Jesus Christ, the name above all other names. Please pray for our fellow believers, and God bless you all in the name of Jesus Christ!
Luke 21 is not a secret rapture as you would like to ridicule the secret rapture. How is it every time you being up this secret thing you sarcastically laugh. But I got a Tell ya it’s only gonna be a secret to those who are not looking for it
Jon 1:17 Now the LORD had prepared a great fish to swallow up Jonah. And Jonah was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights. Mat 12:39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonah: Mat 12:40 For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. Joh 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. Joh 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd. Luk 23:42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise. Luk 16:19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: Luk 16:20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, Luk 16:21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. Luk 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; Luk 16:23 And in hell he lifted up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. Luk 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. Luk 16:25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. Luk 16:26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. Luk 16:27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: Luk 16:28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. Luk 16:29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. Luk 16:30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. Luk 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead. 1Pe 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 1Pe 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; 1Pe 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. 1Pe 4:6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. Mat 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, Mat 27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many. Eph 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
Isaiah 57:1 the righteous is taken away from the evil to come. 1cor 15; 51+52 changed in the twinkling of an eye 1thes 4:16-18 caught up and the lord descends not touching the earth because we are caught up to meet him. Rev 3:10 not appointed to wrath 1thes 1:10 delivers from wrath. The 10 virgins 5 waiting eagerly for the groom that comes like a thief in the night for his bride. At the 2nd coming he comes with all the saints in great glory all see thats not like a thief in the night. Gods wrath was put on jesus for us that we might have the righteousness of God. He is not going to let his bride suffer his wrath which is poured out on the unbelievers. When the abomination of desolation occurs it’s 1290 days we know the day the second coming we don’t know the day of the rapture. That which restrains the antichrist is the church it must be taken out of the way so that he can be revealed. 1thes 5:9 Rom5:9 Eph 5:6 all about not suffering his wrath
ENDTIMES FALSE CHURCH FALSE PROPHET ANTICHRIST TRIBULATION ABYSS When I heard this rebuke my spirit in a matter of seconds was already beside Jesus. He said, "I will show in vision the church that will operate great signs in the Tribulation. This Tribulation church will have millions of branches worldwide. This false church is the only one that will exist and will bring together all the religions of the whole world to form one." The False Prophet is the leader of this church and will have powers to execute the laws of death, killing people who do not follow the Beast. It will be a totally idolatrous church full of miracles and cures. The images of this church speak and even heal everyone who touches them. This church has the power to intervene and take away people's freedom. The power that this church will have in people's lives was given through the Beast because of the covenant between the False Prophet and the Antichrist. These two persons will command the world in the great tribulation. The religion commanded by the False Prophet who is the Beast who came up from the Earth. And the policy commanded by the Antichrist who is the Beast who came up out of the sea. In the vision, I saw the spirit of the Beast rising from the depths of the Earth, from the deepest infernal abyss. And the other spirit went up from the depths of the sea, even from the deep. I believe these two beasts were trapped in the abyss of hell. The Spirit of the Earth Beast went to the Middle East and won all of Asia. The people of Israel and the Muslims accepted the Beast as their king. This man introduced the anti-Christian religion that came about as the whole appearance of charity is quite attractive. The false appearance of goodness offered the people all iniquity and abomination. He did not fight evil but strengthened sin. This false religion created 2 Gods of flesh in which the people could see and talk. The False Prophet made the world population bow before him and the Antichrist. This religion was the most idolatrous of all time and operated as many signs as it had never seen before. Not even the churches of our day did as many miracles as I saw in the vision. The false prophets of our day will be too small in healing operations compared to this religion that will come to subdue the world. The Antichrist will be a strategic man and will lead all religions into a single religion, to which the False Prophet will be the greatest religious leader of all time. The world taken by the religion implanted by the Antichrist will be marked with its sign. This mark will make many be properties of the Beast. And thousands upon millions of demons were released to work in the church of the False Prophet. I was frightened to see several dark-shadow cults invading Earth. All the people who went to their churches were not faithful to God. Their congregations remained with the same name as the denomination founded by their pastor. But in tribulation who was being worshiped in the temple was the Beast. His statue was within all the earthly churches that were places of worship before God. All the Christian people, who had denied Jesus, were inside the temples being submissive to the greatest authority of the earth, the False Prophet. The immorality reached a high level that every kind of sin was considered acceptable. The spiritual lives of the people were poisoned by the religious system of the Beast. People were spiritually dead through teaching, worship and the idolatry of the dogmas of the Beast. The Holy Spirit no longer works in people's lives because of the rottenness of sin. The submission of the people to the anti-Christian teaching caused the Holy Spirit to depart from them. The Holy Spirit was with those who had the seal and remained hidden from the pursuers. The false church caused the spiritual death of almost the entire world population. There were no more evangelical churches to worship Jesus. The temples were invaded by the images of the Beast. The true worshipers were worshiping Jesus in secret places. And the great signs, healings, strange appearances, and tongues were taking place in the temples of the worshipers of the Beast. All this happened without the presence of the Holy Spirit. Millions of people worshiping, several churches open, but God's chosen ones were not there, because Satan usurped the altar of worship by taking the pulpits of these denominations by profaning them with their filth. God's people lost their freedom and preached the hidden Word of God. What has been revealed to me was that the world religious system will reign on Earth, and no other religion will stand before this gigantic organization that will crush the world and annihilate all religions on Earth. Jesus said to me, "Write down everything you saw and witness on Earth."
The church was not here for any of Daniel's previous 69 weeks, so why would we be here for any of the 70th week of a period of time where the bible says Jesus lays waste to the entire Earth and very few people remain. Wake up folks the tribulation is about getting rid of people like in the days of Noah.
I think that may be what leads to the "great apostasy" - when Satan persecutes believers, they won't be prepared to suffer for their faith. It will be more than "disappointment."
Paul said WE who are alive ''''''',,,,,,, before That Day, what day ? The Day of The Lord COULD ( Mattew 24 and mark 13) The day of the lord could NOT come till the temple was destroyed, NOT ONE STONE WOULD BE LEFT UPON ANOTHER 1..... We who are Alive ( his life time ) 2...... Not one stone upon another 3 .... That day can't come till theres a falling away 4 .... The apostate 5 ....the REVEALING of the man of sin 6 ... THE ABOMINATION 7 ... EVERY eye will see HIM Paul Expected the Rapture Before the Temple was destroyed in 70 AD
@@bearcreek9402 we "who remain"! None of the Apostles lived to witness Zechariah 14 (the return of the Lord). It's basic comprehension. He didn't say we will all remain until the coming of the Lord!
Hi Dr. Brown, could you please reach out to Perry Stone for a friendly Christian debate about the rapture timing? That would be a great one to see or hear. Robert Breaker on TH-cam is another one that could be interesting.
+Chris Burton: There's no good argument for a pre-tribulation rapture. Ask anyone who believes in pre-trib for a verse that proves it. You'll get a deer-in-the-highlights stare.
I have been a post-trip Believer now for about 20 years, it is encouraging to me to hear that someone else came the same way. They studied for themselves they notice that the scriptures that were given did not line up with the pre-trib doctrine, and as he said most only believe it because that's what they were taught. The story is always the same from everyone going to have questioned the pre-trib doctrine. I swear I hear myself speaking through this gentleman. For me it was where does the bible teach 7 years of tribulation?, where does the bible say that the tribulation is the wrath of God?, and more to the point, where does the bible say the church is removed before the tribulation? And let me not forget the very clear reading of 2nd Thessalonians 2, straight to the point and unmistakable.
A lot of comments here miss the point of pre-trib rapture. The Great Tribulation isn't because of a time of persecution..that's been occurring for aeons.. It's a specific time of God's wrath upon the earth... that's the logic of a rapture for Christians before that occurs. If you don't get that point.. you cannot possibly critique it biblically
Very good point. I myself dont believe in a pre trib, I hope I am worng, but you are correct. If the only comment someone can bring agianst pre trib is God doesnt save us from persecution then they miss the point
The church was not here for any of Daniel's previous 69 weeks, so why would we be here for any of the 70th week of a period of time where the bible says Jesus lays waste to the entire Earth and very few people remain. Wake up folks the tribulation is about getting rid of people like in the days of Noah.
“But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powersthat are in heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the EARTH to the uttermost part of heaven.” Mark 13:24-27. KJV PRE-TRIB. RAPTURE IS FALSE DOCTRINE!
I have carefully listened to both sides of, various individual “experts” or knowledgeable individuals and debates. I have also, examined scripture on my own... both sides have convincing arguments as well as weak; all of this as well as my own research has not convinced me one way or the other because it is too vague as far as an exact time-frame or clear distinction between rapture and second coming...Nevertheless, it is clear that those who are alive and remain, will be “caught up to meet the Lord in the air” can’t argue with this. Christ is not coming on the ground to get those who are still alive at this time. Therefore my goal is to, with the help of God, do my best to arm myself , as the Apostle Paul taught when referring to suffering and enduring any form of tribulation. I get the sense we may never know. So carry on soldier, and not to dwell to heavy on the matter.
ENDTIMES FALSE CHURCH FALSE PROPHET ANTICHRIST TRIBULATION ABYSS When I heard this rebuke my spirit in a matter of seconds was already beside Jesus. He said, "I will show in vision the church that will operate great signs in the Tribulation. This Tribulation church will have millions of branches worldwide. This false church is the only one that will exist and will bring together all the religions of the whole world to form one." The False Prophet is the leader of this church and will have powers to execute the laws of death, killing people who do not follow the Beast. It will be a totally idolatrous church full of miracles and cures. The images of this church speak and even heal everyone who touches them. This church has the power to intervene and take away people's freedom. The power that this church will have in people's lives was given through the Beast because of the covenant between the False Prophet and the Antichrist. These two persons will command the world in the great tribulation. The religion commanded by the False Prophet who is the Beast who came up from the Earth. And the policy commanded by the Antichrist who is the Beast who came up out of the sea. In the vision, I saw the spirit of the Beast rising from the depths of the Earth, from the deepest infernal abyss. And the other spirit went up from the depths of the sea, even from the deep. I believe these two beasts were trapped in the abyss of hell. The Spirit of the Earth Beast went to the Middle East and won all of Asia. The people of Israel and the Muslims accepted the Beast as their king. This man introduced the anti-Christian religion that came about as the whole appearance of charity is quite attractive. The false appearance of goodness offered the people all iniquity and abomination. He did not fight evil but strengthened sin. This false religion created 2 Gods of flesh in which the people could see and talk. The False Prophet made the world population bow before him and the Antichrist. This religion was the most idolatrous of all time and operated as many signs as it had never seen before. Not even the churches of our day did as many miracles as I saw in the vision. The false prophets of our day will be too small in healing operations compared to this religion that will come to subdue the world. The Antichrist will be a strategic man and will lead all religions into a single religion, to which the False Prophet will be the greatest religious leader of all time. The world taken by the religion implanted by the Antichrist will be marked with its sign. This mark will make many be properties of the Beast. And thousands upon millions of demons were released to work in the church of the False Prophet. I was frightened to see several dark-shadow cults invading Earth. All the people who went to their churches were not faithful to God. Their congregations remained with the same name as the denomination founded by their pastor. But in tribulation who was being worshiped in the temple was the Beast. His statue was within all the earthly churches that were places of worship before God. All the Christian people, who had denied Jesus, were inside the temples being submissive to the greatest authority of the earth, the False Prophet. The immorality reached a high level that every kind of sin was considered acceptable. The spiritual lives of the people were poisoned by the religious system of the Beast. People were spiritually dead through teaching, worship and the idolatry of the dogmas of the Beast. The Holy Spirit no longer works in people's lives because of the rottenness of sin. The submission of the people to the anti-Christian teaching caused the Holy Spirit to depart from them. The Holy Spirit was with those who had the seal and remained hidden from the pursuers. The false church caused the spiritual death of almost the entire world population. There were no more evangelical churches to worship Jesus. The temples were invaded by the images of the Beast. The true worshipers were worshiping Jesus in secret places. And the great signs, healings, strange appearances, and tongues were taking place in the temples of the worshipers of the Beast. All this happened without the presence of the Holy Spirit. Millions of people worshiping, several churches open, but God's chosen ones were not there, because Satan usurped the altar of worship by taking the pulpits of these denominations by profaning them with their filth. God's people lost their freedom and preached the hidden Word of God. What has been revealed to me was that the world religious system will reign on Earth, and no other religion will stand before this gigantic organization that will crush the world and annihilate all religions on Earth. Jesus said to me, "Write down everything you saw and witness on Earth."
Real kindergarden some scriptures say Jesus foot touch the ground other scriptures say hes coming with the saints here and but not in this scripture hes picking up SAINTS COME ON BILL WENT TO THE BALL GAME SUE SAW BILL CATCH A FLY BALL AT THE GAME, STEVE ONLY SAW BILL EATING A HOT DOG AT THE FOOD STAND, OK AND JACK ONLY SAW BILL AT THE GAME IN THE BATHROOM ONLY WASHING HIS HANDS, AT CHRISTS ONE AND ONLY SECOND COMING JESUS WILL BE DOING MILLIONS AND MILLIONS OF THINGS FIGHTING SATAN, DELIEVERING THE GOOD , HEALING THE EARTH, SAVING THE WORLD GOING AND COMING TAKING AND DELIEVERING BUT ITS ALL ONE EVENT THE SECOND COMING WHEN JESUS IS NOT BOUND TO THIS GUY ONLY ONLY SAW THIS SO JESUS IS COMING IS ONE GIANT EVENT WITH LITERLY MILLIONS OF THINGS GOING ON AND HAPPENING ( NOT INTERPTED BY CLEVER CON ARTISTS SAYING HES COMING 2 DIFFERENT TIMES , JESUS ONE AND ONLY EVENT WITH DIFFERENT ACCOUNTS OF DIFFERENT VISIONS , BUT WITH DIFFERENT TIMES OF DIFFERENT PEOPLE WITNESSING THE SAME ONE EVENT!
Except Jesus says himself, very specofically in matthew 24 that his second coming will be after the the antichrist and his return will be at a trumpet blast where his angels gather the elect. Well, in revelation, thats the 7th trumpet.
I am with you Yvette! I heard recently about churches in other areas where there was severe persecution of Christians but they were preaching the rapture. The leaders said, "we wish that we had preached that which would encourage and sustain our people through persecution; we wish we had preached of tribulation and persecution, not the rapture; we are so sorry." I think this says enough for me. And if you look at what's happening in the world then you would be honest to admit that the tribulation has already started 😔
Wish I could have called in to discuss. My understanding is that before God's judgement falls on a large scale (i.e., worldwide tribulation), He always provides a way of escape for those who choose to follow and obey Him. Obviously, believers suffer until we're with the Lord...and in various ways, from being rejected by family and friends to martyrdom. For me, I'm actually motivated to obedience, genuine love and service to God precisely because I have no idea when He will return. And I don't want to be living godlessly when He calls me home. My pre-trib viewpoint moves me to a healthy fear and reverence for the Lord, not to complacency. I want to be ready to see Him face-to-face; I don't want to be ashamed because I've been living my way, not His. And there are many writings from church leaders about a pre-trib rapture WELL before Darby in the 1800s. We'll all see what our Lord has planned. Like Dr. Brown, I've studied eschatology for decades, and both my informal and formal studies have convinced me that there is indeed a rapture that occurs before the great tribulation.
John The Revelator oh yes it is! There are 7 seal judgements, 7 trumpet judgments, and 7 bowl judgements. “Then I heard the angel in charge of the waters say: “You are just in these judgments, O Holy One, you who are and who were;” Revelation 16:5 NIV www.bible.com/bible/111/rev.16.5.niv
1 Corinthians 15:50-52 The resurrection will happen AFTER THE LAST TRUMPET. The dead in Christ shall rise first. The last trumpet occurs AFTER the tribulation no pretrib rapture
I grew up listening to my parents discussing Hal Lindsay's book during the '70s. Later, I worked for CBN in the early '80s. Each time I heard reference to the pre-trib rapture, I felt a check in my spirit and went over the many scriptures believers use to corroborate their point. Finally, I made an appointment with one of the department heads at the network to have a heart-to-heart discussion about it. When I told him that I couldn't find biblical references to the pre-trib rapture anywhere in scripture, he absolutely agreed with me. But, because we both were entrenched in the charismatic evangelical culture, we agreed to keep our reservations to ourselves. I'm a writer, so I pay attention to context. Early on, I realized that proponents of this doctrine spin scriptural sources they use to support it. This is more than just a misinterpretation caused by poor scholarship. It's a spirit of deception that has been unleashed on believers. I believe this false doctrine may have serious consequences in years to come.
You were right.. no one is ready 👍
Yes Sharon, this pre-trib docturine could have serious consequences, namely causing its adherents to fall away from the faith when difficult tribulation comes.
@@NHisways imagine all the food we would have stored up if all the believers were ready for at least a few years of scarce food. If we believed the bible so much that we adjusted our lives in the event that we see prophecy fulfilled. I think that was the reason of inventing the pre trib rapture. That way we aren't ready for the horseman and we have to make the difficult decision of getting marked for food or get casted out and starving. This is brilliant and sad
@@sinnersaved1033 Good point
Thats because the bible is about Israel, written by Jews, Jesus would not even speak to the Samaritan Woman, he would nit allow the 70 he sent out to go unto Gentiles, so why would you expect anything about the Gentiles anywhere except in Paul's writings (the Disciple sent to the gentiles) or the book of Revelation that tells about the end times. Hence Paul says I tell you a Mystery (Meusterion which means a Secret by God's silence or to SHUT THE MOUTH). So, all of the text which are point unto the Jews plight point to the END when they will be raised up, not to the Rapture when the dead n Christ are raised up.
The problem is you guys conflate the Bride of Christ and the Bride of God, the Jews. There is NO WAY we can marry Jesus in Rev. 18 then return with him, and help Jesus DESTROY the Beast without a pre trib rapture. Also, Jesus points over and over to his Marrying his bride. Well, the Jewish Custom was 7 days in the marriage chambers, the Jewish custom was for the father to send the son fir the bride at a time of his choice, The Jewish customs all fit, the groom gives the bride a gift, Jesus gave us the holy spirit, the bride has to consent and then be purified, we have to accept Christ then we are baptized, its a sort of purification period.
2 Thess. 2 says DEPART not FALLING AWAY, the first bible to not say DEOART was the KJV, the first 7 English translations had DEPART, so what is it that departs, the Church that is GATHERED UNTO Christ as verse 1 describes !! You have been duped, their is no mention of FAITH anywhere in the passage, but a GATHERING unto Christ is in verse 1.
Where does the bible say the tribulation is God's wrath, the tribulation is the "Beast" attacking the saints.
EXACTLY!
And the Wrath of God will be poured out on the seat of the beast and those who have taken the mark......The plagues of Egypt are a foreshadow of things to come....
But not us that love him, and know the truth.Revelation 9:4
“And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.”
Finally, somebody gets the clue.
I’d love to see a frank discussion between you & Dr. Andy Woods or Amir Tsarfati or Pastor Jack Hibbs.
Dr Andy Woods would win a good debate against my brother Dr Brown on the Tribulation subject .
@@eswn1816 I'll fix it... Lol. It does sound bad.
@@jesusfreak7777
👍 😊
The only difference is that they are taught and the pre-trib as a fact but scripture doesn't hold that view to my perspective I respect everyone's perspective and the Lord Jesus is coming back I know when at the right time but the Christian hope is not if we escape if it's that he is coming back according to his will hallelujah Maranatha get ready and enjoy the ride
@@jesusfreak7777
Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and Hebrews 12:22-24, modern Dispensational Theology falls apart, and the pretrib removal of the Church falls with it.
The Capitol "C" Church, as we use the word today, is not found in the entire Book of Revelation. Individual church bodies in ancient Asia Minor are found. In Revelation 12:11 we find those under the blood of the Lamb. A person cannot be under the blood of the Lamb and not be a part of the New Covenant Church of Jesus Christ. Verse 12 of this passage proves at least part of the tribulation period is the wrath of Satan upon the people of God.
Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
"It may come as a surprise to most pre-Trib prophecy students that the post-Trib position (in its primitive form) is the oldest point of view."
The quotation above is from the book "Will You Escape The Tribulation? RAPTURE [Under Attack]", by Tim LaHaye, copyright 1998, Page 197.
The gathering of the Church is described at the end of 1 Thess. Chapter 4, and the timing of the event is found in chapter 5. The word “But” in the first verse of chapter 5 connects the two chapters, and the words “we” and “sleep” in verse 10 of chapter 5 prove the two chapters are connected.
Ive been in the Church for 36 years and have heard both sides. One thing that i dont understand is if one believes that we are made to go through the great tribulation why arent you (maybe you are) preparing (food,water, fuel ect...) to survive this terrible time as best as you can. Does the bible say dont prepare because you must suffer? Also does the word teach to prepare as best as you can in reguards to the tribulation? Those who beleive we are made for the tribulation: i havent heard them warning others to prepare either.
You can't show even one scripture that even suggests a pre-tribulation rapture.
yeoberry im not trying to prove a pre trib rapture. Im trying to unserstand if we beleive we are to suffer through the tribulation then shouldnt we try and prepare. I asked questions. Does the bible say for the tribulation that we shouldn't prepare with food, water ect...? Or does it say we should prepare?. Or is it silent? Shouldn't we include a warning of the tribulation to also try and prepare so we can survive as best as we can? My questions are not rhetorical or a setup. You seem agitated and ready for confrontation I am simply trying to figure this all out myself
That there isn't any scripture teaching the pre-tribulation rapture means that position has no basis. 1 Corinthians 15:52 says the rapture occurs at the "last trumpet". Since there are trumpets during the tribulation, the rapture cannot happen before it. The question is settled.
If you want to prepare for a tribulation, feel free.
I don't believe in the pre-trib rapture and I have done at least a little preparation- what I am able to do- and of course I would recommend others do the same. We are not "made for" the tribulation, but some of us may unfortunately have to go through it. All the original apostles of Christ were forced to go through the worst kind of tribulations for their testimonies. Are we better than they were?
+siji olawumi:
Do you know that the pre-tribulation rapture is fiction?
The church will be equipped through a reformation that will go on soon(already started) to be able to endure the tribulation. We're no better than the generation that was fed to the lions. I think
Ed Ho Amen!
We can all pick out scripture to support what we believe. Our church believes we will go through the entire tribulation. I have listened to their points from scripture and sure, it could support what they are saying. I've heard others who use other scripture and indeed those verses can also support we will be raptured before the tribulation. My view, based on my understanding from what I have read in scripture, is we will not go through the tribulation. Isn't the tribulation God's judgement on the earth? My husband and I both discussed this topic and have come to the conclusion that if we are wrong on being taken out, we are at least right in our faith in an all sustaining God who is faithful to protect and provide. To me the great tribulation is a wake up call from God to a Godless society. I already have had my wake up call and I, in a moment was held guilty before a sinless savior, and all I had done was laid bare before him. I had no defense on my own. Guilty. But in a moment as my heart melted within me and I through tears asked pardon for all that I had done, even everything that I had yet to do, His blood covered me and cleansed me of my sin and my guilt/ my shame and I was filled with his Spirit confirming, yes I even I was forgiven and never would endure his wrath.
In my 31 years walking in Christ I have heard many different ideas about God, rapture, free will vs. predestined. And in the more modern churches emerging I even hear things that scare me about as much as going through the tribulation does. One thing however remains....God is still in control. He has always been faithful and every trial and tribulation I've gone through in my 65 years He has only shown me more of who He is. If we go through a tribulation He will still be the rock that we cling to, the mercy that we need. And if we die in the tribulation......we'll only be home sooner. Our lives are always in His capable hands.
The G.tribulatioon is NOT the same as the Wrath of God... The G.T is the Wrath of satan.. He will make war with the Saints and he will overcome them. REV 14. That's the G.T. Its the testing of our Faith who really really the TRUE follower of Christ. Separation of the real gold from the counterfeit one!!!. Then after the G.tribulatioon then The coming of our Lord Jesus CHRIST to take His Bride home then the Wrath of GOD pours down to the DISOBEDIENCE.!
Jesus says himself he will return after these things at the sound of a trumpet, where his angels gather the elect. When does that happen in Revelation? The 7th trumpet.
If Jesus said it, thats how its happening.
15:51-52 The resurrection will happen AFTER THE LAST TRUMPET.
1 Thessalonians 4:16 The dead in Christ shall rise first.
The last trumpet occurs AFTER the tribulation and the dead in Christ rise first- no pretrib rapture
Thank you, thank you! I long ago searched the scriptures all the typical verses quoted by those who believe in the pre-trib, and didn't see it at all. I have long felt those teaching such a doctrine are doing a great harm to the body of Christ. Instead of educating and helping people train to prepare for the coming suffering they are given a false illusion they will escape what is coming, which, I believe, will contribute to the great falling away; imagine how devastated and confused they will be when the trouble starts and they are still here. Appreciate you Dr. Brown! Keep up the good work!
R Het
So you say that pretribbers are failing to prepare, but in Paul's epistles not once does it say prepare for the tribulation. So I guess by your thought Paul has failed also.
+livingforJesus:
There isn't one verse any where in the Bible teaching a pre-trib rapture. You're wrong about the KJV and you're wrong about the pre-trib rapture. You're consistently wrong.
1 Corinthians 15:52 says the rapture occurs at the "last trumpet". Since there are trumpets during the tribulation, the rapture cannot happen before it.
Just by warning you you are being given the chance to prepare. If someone says "a train is coming" and you are standing on the tracks, do you need them to say "move" in order to understand that you should do it?
Kanbei85
Ok, where is Paul's warning of the coming tribulation that we are to go through.
+livingforJesus:
Where is even one scripture that teaches a pre-tribulation rapture?
1 Corinthians 15:52 says the rapture occurs at the "last trumpet". Since there are trumpets during the tribulation, the rapture cannot happen before it.
Why do only Jew , the 144k, preach the gospel during tribulation? And not the church?
Because the church is not here by then?
The problem with most pre-trib Rapture people, is that they confuse the tribulation with the wrath of God. Both pre and post both agree that we are not appointed to wrath as Christian's. But pre-trib folks believe that the tribulation is the wrath of God, but they are two separate things according to scripture. You either believe what Jesus taught in Matthew 24 or you believe what man says
Hey Dr. Brown, I love the show. Thanks for always having interesting guests. This time I thought you could have done a better job being a devil's advocate applying scrutiny to Mr. Keener's propositions. I think that many of the pre-trib arguments, even though some may espouse them, the refutation of some of them effectively amounted to refuting stawman arguments. Moreover, you did not apply scrutiny to Mr. Keener's explanations. In both cases, it would be better to have an actual pre-trib advocate present the pre-trib arguments and scrutinize the responses. This interview came across as a bash-the pre-trib-position fest. Doing a good job of teasing out the truth of Scripture is not necessarily an instantaneous event as much as we might like it to be so, but a much longer process of comparing Scripture with Scripture, and sadly, in mine experience few are those who are willing or have the patience to do it. Hopefully our goal in this exercise is to know and understand the truth.
Dr Brown has blinders on when it comes to the prophetic.
+Ben Johnson:
If you believe in the fiction of the pre-tribulation, you have blinders on. You can't show even one scripture that even suggests a pre-tribulation rapture.
does it matter...pre mid, or post....be ready for the hour no mans knows....I think if God want to shows us he would of, he didn't so it's not for us to know....not fiction, it is just a guess at best. This is the 1st time I've listen to Dr. Brown he is stumbling around with no comment??? He always had good points, but if you listen to him he has nothing concrete...either way...I tell people, be ready.....
Daniel Ayala I suggested Dr. Brown request Perry Stone to have a friendly Christian debate since he has a strong argument for pre-trib.
Paul Rock it matters for the sake of knowing biblical truth. We should want to know more of Gods word. Simple as that :)
On the "descended to hell" issue: the word "hell" used to mean the realm of the dead, I.e. Sheol or Hades, and not the place of eternal punishment (Gehenna or Tartaros). Hence, the word is nowadays usually avoided in the Apostles' Creed.
The passage never meant that Jesus descended into Gehenna and no church ever taught that. It is a misunderstanding.
This was a great segment and have listened to it several times...really enjoy when you have Dr. Keener on!
I love how Dr Arnold sees where things fit as he sees God sees it and i feel he has that gift of rightly deviding the word.I notice that it is mostly when ppl take Israel outta the Scriptures that we end up interpreting Scriptures backward-forward instead of the right way...
Hi larry and faith filoa,
Israel and the church are one. We, the wild branches, are grafted into the root of Israel. We do not replace them. The tribulation saints are our brethren, they sre not divided from the bride of Christ. They are not saved, except by the blood of the lamb......the same Holy spirit that dwells within us, will be in them. The dead in Christ will rise first.
Dr Arnold identifies the church as n entity composed of both jews n non jewish ppl. The day of Pentecost is the birth date of the Church until the Rapture. God will deal with The Jews during the Troublesome days known as the Tribulation period bt ur right to an extent. Arnold teaches theres a clear distinction of the Church, Old Testament Saints, the tribulation saints etc... n so the church must be clearly defined n i trust that Arnolds on track. Yes the same Blood of the Messiah Yeshua will save us all in any given time in history in the future but these promises made that Paul talks abt in the epistles are specifically for the Church not for a time beyond the Church age..
The pre trib thing has become more modern church tradition than actually grounded in scripture
Amen.
Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and Hebrews 12:22-24, modern Dispensational Theology falls apart, and the pretrib removal of the Church falls with it.
The Capitol "C" Church, as we use the word today, is not found in the entire Book of Revelation. Individual church bodies in ancient Asia Minor are found. In Revelation 12:11 we find those under the blood of the Lamb. A person cannot be under the blood of the Lamb and not be a part of the New Covenant Church of Jesus Christ. Verse 12 of this passage proves at least part of the tribulation period is the wrath of Satan upon the people of God.
Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
"It may come as a surprise to most pre-Trib prophecy students that the post-Trib position (in its primitive form) is the oldest point of view."
The quotation above is from the book "Will You Escape The Tribulation? RAPTURE [Under Attack]", by Tim LaHaye, copyright 1998, Page 197.
The gathering of the Church is described at the end of 1 Thess. Chapter 4, and the timing of the event is found in chapter 5. The word “But” in the first verse of chapter 5 connects the two chapters, and the words “we” and “sleep” in verse 10 of chapter 5 prove the two chapters are connected.
I’d love to listen to this but chi early there’s a commercial every couple of minutes. Is it more important to make a few extra dollars or to spread the gospel?
Dear brothers, Peter was crucified and other apostols killed too, but John not.
A lot of christians lived until the Lord called them (Billy Graham).
Chineese and Indian christians that have been killed are destined to get a crown, but those crowns are not for every christians. What is the difference with a brother in Christ who dead 2 months ago with cancer, after suffering 2 years.
So, this is not an argument to post-trib posture.
I can't understand how to comfort one another telling that they have to pass trough G.T.
Glod blees you all!
The 1970’s was a miraculous time for so
many inheriting the kingdom of God. I was born again in 1975. From day one, I
loved studying eschatology. Anticipating Jesus’ return at any moment was so
exciting. The Late Great Planet Earth was my favorite book. Yet the more I
studied, the more questions I had. Finding answers always led to a frustrating
dead end. In 1990, an answer to prayer changed what I always believed. My eyes
were miraculously opened to the truth. Understanding the timing of our
gathering at His coming is profound, yet so simple.
The Day of the Lord will not overtake the overcomers watching for the events of the six seals. (1 Thes. 5:4, 2 Thes. 2:1-4, Rev. 3:3; 6:1-17)
I dont know what bible you people read from. In The rapture Jesus WONT come, nobody will see him, we will just disappear "in a twinking of an eye" and will meet Jesus in the air. On the 2nd coming, AFTER THE TRIBULATION every eye will see Jesus and the millenium will begin. 2 different separate events.
Ask yourself this. What gives God more glory, bailing his children out in the most critical time on earth or his Saints taking it on the chin despite all odds and glorifying God through faith in the face of evil...
really good question
Regarding 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4, Renald Showers writes “Paul is not teaching here that the apostasy and revelation of the man of sin have to take place before the Rapture takes place. What he’s saying is, the apostasy and the revelation of the man of sin, or the Antichrist, have to take place before the Day of the Lord begins.”
Finally! Someone willing to tackle this pre-trib rapture nonsense!
I don't think it's nonsense...I believe it's God's way of keeping us from guessing....No man knows....the hour...None of God's words is nonsense....
One would need to show that the pre-trib rapture in fact IS part of God's word. I never said God's words are nonsense of course- but pre-trib rapture is not IN God's word!
+Paul Rock:
We know there is no pre-tribulation rapture.
1. There is not one verse in all the Bible teaching it. That's why no one believed in a pre-tribulation rapture until John N. Darby made it up in the 1830s.
2. The Lord Jesus specifically prayed that the church NOT be taken out of the world (John 17:15). For there to be a pretribulation rapture, the Father would have to not listen to the Son.
3. 1 Corinthians 15:52 says the rapture occurs at the "last trumpet". Since there are trumpets during the tribulation, the rapture cannot happen before it.
yeoberry 1.Luke 21:36 there is a possibility of escape if we are ready, 1 Thessalonians 4:15,17 those are alive and remain (possibly saints taken earlier that were not left) Revelation 3:10(reward for faithfulness escaping event, Revelation 12:5, 10-12, man child taken to the throne 10-12 demonstrates a group of believers Revelation 14:1-5 shows a group of believers following the Lord
Well by your logic, doctrines of grace aren't in scripture until Augustine or even eternal security by some believers that want to go back to scriptures and the Church Fathers. Some doctrines are plainly stated while others are found through, studying, God teaching us and helping us apply knowledge. Darby had other issues as well and I'm fine with pointing out those things. Did you know he was part of an assembly with BW Newton who was post trib and also knew saints who believe like I do of a partial rapture? My point is we don't divide over this but willingly lay out different views for each other. Also for me to not to hold bitterness towards any believer for any reason.
2. Being a disciple of Christ is serious and real for all believers. Jesus wants us to serve Christ and be ready to serve him. If saints are ready before the tribulation, great, if not Christ will get them ready.
3. I agree with the final trumpet with saints being raptured
4. Do you think the elect can be deceived during the tribulation? Sounds pretty plain in the Olivet Discourse that it is possible. Sadly reformed and other Christian teachings takes that plain written word away.
5. Be blessed by the Lord. Let Christ be Lord of all His saints in every area of our life.
+elijah402
1. Not one of the verses you listed even hints at a pre-trib rapture. The doctrines of grace are clearly taught in scripture, repeatedly.
4. Actually, Jesus said the elect cannot be deceived. "If it were possible."
If I told my Son that he would never face my wrath does that mean he will never face trouble (tribulation) in this world? Absolutely not. Wrath is God's furious anger - we are free from that - but great tribulation was something Christ and all the Early church faced, its foolish to think we wont.
I agree that we must go through at least the first half of the tribulation. The reason being, in addition to the Scripture in context, is that God, Who is absolutely just and righteous, will not bring complete condemnatory judgement upon the world until the measure of sin is full. Just as He gave Pharoah and the Egyptians every chance to repent, before He brought final judgement upon them, so Hr will give the unbelievers the very best chance possible to repent, by showing them the most powerful testimony of all: martyrs. The final martyrs will be the two witnesses, and the full wrath off God will be unleashed after they are resurrected. Just as the Israelites were protected from the final plagues, so God will keep His people from the wrath which He will unleash upon the world. Those with His seal will be umharmed till the ressurection.
I believe the two harvests in Revelation reflect the two harvests in Matthew 13.
And you know what restrains him now, so that in his time he may be revealed. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way. -2 Thessalonians 2:6-7 Who is the "HE" who restrains....( the MAN child of REV.12 : the BODY of Christ that will be given the Rod of Iron to Rule with Christ for 1000 years....The Church of Philadelphia , the Bride of Christ who is full of (OIL) of the Holy Spirit)!!!!!The Bible is clear the elect are the Jews and those who will make up the Remnant of Her(Israel) seed( after the Man Child=the Body of Christ=True on fire for Christ Church has been delivered REV.12 sign) the Remnant, those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus….The 5 wise Virgins will have LEFT and gone into the Marriage Supper of the LAMB with the POWER of the Holy Spirit (OIL)keeping their lamps=Witness for Christ, burning brightly) at the Appointed time on God's SKY CLOCK that strikes year 6000(120 Jubilees) this Sept. 23ed at the last trump, like PAUL told us :the last trump at the Feast of trumpets( It’s time to Crown OUR KING)....The entire BOOK of REVELATION is written in the STARS and plays out to the day starting from SEPT.23...IF you want to see this, be a good Berean and Check it out at
www.REVELATIONCHAPTER12dotCOM.....BE BLESSED and miss the TRIB/G.TRIB .Jesus told the Sardis Church(The rep. of the modern day sleeping Church) IF they did not WAKE UP He would come on them like a thief.....This means if they did wake up they would KNOW the Time of His return...Jesus Himself REVERSED the “no man’s KNOWS the day or hour” in the opening verse of the BOOK of REVELATION...Jesus was angry with the religious leaders for not Knowing His First Coming, because it was written in the STARS...THE WISE MEN FROM the EAST KNEW how to read GOD's sky clock( His Bride KNOWS HOW to read them today)....David said Psalm 19:1-4 1 For the choir director. A Psalm of David. The heavens are telling of the glory of God; And their expanse is declaring the work of His hands. 2 Day to day pours forth speech, And night to night reveals knowledge. 3 There is no speech, nor are there words; Their voice is not heard. 4 Their line has gone out through all the earth, And their utterances to the end of the world.
God made the Sun, moon and Stars to Pour forth Knowledge....Jesus told the people of Jerusalem
Luke 19:43-44 43 For the days will come upon you when your enemies will barricade you and surround you and hem you in on every side. 44 They will level you to the ground - you and the children within your walls. They will not leave one stone on another, because you did not recognize the time of your visitation from God.”
Jesus Side pray always that you be found worthy to escape these things coming upon the earth.... If you must endure the TRIB/G.TRIB. WHY PRAY? Jesus Promised to keep the Church of Philadelphia from the HOUR of trial that would come upon the entire world…He promised to come and take us where HE is in John 14…If He waits to take His Bride at the end of the G. Trib, JESUS comes to earth for 1000 years (the new heaven and earth come at the END) and John 14 NEVER came TRUE…Jesus does NOT break His promises.!. There is more then one catching away.... Jesus already took the old O.T. saints when He rose from the grave and went to present Himself to the Father as the first fruits offering.... That was a resurrection...so the First resurrection is first because there are 2 types: the righteous and the wicked.... there are several places in REV. that harvesting of the Righteous takes place, not Just once.... STUDY this closely.... Some are standing on a sea of glass.... these are the wise virgins....Some are Standing on a sea of glass mingled with Fire these are the ones who endured the TRIB/G.TRIB.....The Bible is very complex.....Take the very little time that you have left to KNOW what it really says. ASK THE HOLY SPIRIT to BE your TEACHER, beloved ones...JESUS is Own HIS WAY....THE Solar Eclipse WAS THE MID-NIGHT CRY THE BRIDEGROOM COMETH, GO YE OUT TO MEET HIM…..Be a Berean and get your OIL, make the Rapture Beloved ones….Or a Luke19:43-44 TO the MAX is at your DOOR.
Revelation 8:1, there was silence in heaven for half an hour. why? Cause everybody is on earth taking away the believers. The church will go thru the tribulation just as Israel went thru the 10 plagues in Egypt.
YOURE RIGHT AND WRONG I FOUND THE ANSWER SIR: ITS IS AND WAS A MYSTERY SHARE THIS ON ALL THE DEBATE CHANNELS AND VIDEOS LETS EVANGELIZE ON LINE ASK ME IF YOU WANT THE SOURCE
i searched and i searched only Jesus could reveal this mystery post trib both KINDA are right BE HAPPY ITS A GREAT DAY READ: TRIBULATION testimony of a sister who talked with the Lord :
I said, "My Lord, the church is not ready, how are You ready for the big day?"
The Lord showed me in a vision all the churches of my city closed and the soldiers were allowed to invade several houses of the brothers.
I asked the Lord, "Will the church go through the great tribulation? The church will not survive."
The Lord said, "Daughter, the church will not go through all the tribulation, it is necessary that My people see the Antichrist to awaken.”
I asked, “Lord, has it got to be this way; the church cannot go up before the great tribulation?
He said, “For if I come before this sign many will not awaken. You must go through trials to remember Me and seek My presence. Remember the three young men of the furnace, they went through a great trial, had to pass through the fire to be purified and approved. Remember Joshua and Caleb who have passed through the great tribulation of the wilderness. They had their faith increased and they inherited the earth that exudes milk and honey. The church that will be preserved will also inherit eternal life in Heaven. That little time that my church will suffer on earth will be a small tribulation; she will not go through all tribulation; it will be as a watershed and all who are on earth will know who the true believers are. That affliction that is coming upon the earth will serve to ripen My fruits for the harvest. Are not all the fruits that belong to Me? When this persecution comes on the earth many will fear when it becomes hard and many will drop My name to not suffer persecution; they will stay behind for the great tribulation."
The church was not here for any of Daniel's previous 69 weeks, so why would we be here for any of the 70th week of a period of time where the bible says Jesus lays waste to the entire Earth and very few people remain. Wake up folks the tribulation is about getting rid of people like in the days of Noah.
Would you please have a public debate about that with any reknown pre-trib theologian?
+COLA FIZZ:
You can't show even one scripture that even suggests a pre-tribulation rapture. If you think the Bible teaches a pre-tribulation rapture, you don't know how to right handle (not "divide" -- that's a bad KJV interpretation) the Word of Truth.
And you know what restrains him now, so that in his time he may be revealed. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way. -2 Thessalonians 2:6-7 Who is the "HE" who restrains....( the MAN child of REV.12 : the BODY of Christ that will be given the Rod of Iron to Rule with Christ for 1000 years....The Church of Philadelphia , the Bride of Christ who is full of (OIL) of the Holy Spirit)!!!!!The Bible is clear the elect are the Jews and those who will make up the Remnant of Her(Israel) seed( after the Man Child=the Body of Christ=True on fire for Christ Church has been delivered REV.12 sign) the Remnant, those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus….The 5 wise Virgins will have LEFT and gone into the Marriage Supper of the LAMB with the POWER of the Holy Spirit (OIL)keeping their lamps=Witness for Christ, burning brightly) at the Appointed time on God's SKY CLOCK that strikes year 6000(120 Jubilees) this Sept. 23ed at the last trump, like PAUL told us :the last trump at the Feast of trumpets( It’s time to Crown OUR KING)....The entire BOOK of REVELATION is written in the STARS and plays out to the day starting from SEPT.23...IF you want to see this, be a good Berean and Check it out at
www.REVELATIONCHAPTER12dotCOM.....BE BLESSED and miss the TRIB/G.TRIB .Jesus told the Sardis Church(The rep. of the modern day sleeping Church) IF they did not WAKE UP He would come on them like a thief.....This means if they did wake up they would KNOW the Time of His return...Jesus Himself REVERSED the “no man’s KNOWS the day or hour” in the opening verse of the BOOK of REVELATION...Jesus was angry with the religious leaders for not Knowing His First Coming, because it was written in the STARS...THE WISE MEN FROM the EAST KNEW how to read GOD's sky clock( His Bride KNOWS HOW to read them today)....David said Psalm 19:1-4 1 For the choir director. A Psalm of David. The heavens are telling of the glory of God; And their expanse is declaring the work of His hands. 2 Day to day pours forth speech, And night to night reveals knowledge. 3 There is no speech, nor are there words; Their voice is not heard. 4 Their line has gone out through all the earth, And their utterances to the end of the world.
God made the Sun, moon and Stars to Pour forth Knowledge....Jesus told the people of Jerusalem
Luke 19:43-44 43 For the days will come upon you when your enemies will barricade you and surround you and hem you in on every side. 44 They will level you to the ground - you and the children within your walls. They will not leave one stone on another, because you did not recognize the time of your visitation from God.”
Jesus Side pray always that you be found worthy to escape these things coming upon the earth.... If you must endure the TRIB/G.TRIB. WHY PRAY? Jesus Promised to keep the Church of Philadelphia from the HOUR of trial that would come upon the entire world…He promised to come and take us where HE is in John 14…If He waits to take His Bride at the end of the G. Trib, JESUS comes to earth for 1000 years (the new heaven and earth come at the END) and John 14 NEVER came TRUE…Jesus does NOT break His promises.!. There is more then one catching away.... Jesus already took the old O.T. saints when He rose from the grave and went to present Himself to the Father as the first fruits offering.... That was a resurrection...so the First resurrection is first because there are 2 types: the righteous and the wicked.... there are several places in REV. that harvesting of the Righteous takes place, not Just once.... STUDY this closely.... Some are standing on a sea of glass.... these are the wise virgins....Some are Standing on a sea of glass mingled with Fire these are the ones who endured the TRIB/G.TRIB.....The Bible is very complex.....Take the very little time that you have left to KNOW what it really says. ASK THE HOLY SPIRIT to BE your TEACHER, beloved ones...JESUS is Own HIS WAY....THE Solar Eclipse WAS THE MID-NIGHT CRY THE BRIDEGROOM COMETH, GO YE OUT TO MEET HIM…..Be a Berean and get your OIL, make the Rapture Beloved ones….Or a Luke19:43-44 TO the MAX is at your DOOR.
+Cola:
The KJV is not the best translation. It's an early 17th century Anglican translation based on latter, more corrupted manuscripts.
All of the Bible is inspired and profitable (2 Tim. 3:15ff). All of it is for all the people of God.
yeoberry as usual you have no point. Just talking to hear yourself
yeoberry The pre-trib rapture can be found in the Bible.
If believers must be raptured as the only means to be protected from Gods wrath, then how can the elect be in it and avoid Gods wrath? Shouldn’t they be raptured the second they are born again, which would mean not one but many raptures?
Brother, here are some more scriptures calling us to responsibility in the final 7 years of this age.
We have Micah 2:12-13?
Who is the Breaker”? Is He Messiah?
Might Jesus be the Deliverer spoken of throughout Holy Scripture?
And why is He coming to deliver?
Are there Christian and pre-christian captives in the hopper, people being processed at the end of the age?
Is there not a “Court of the Gentiles”? Is it really just a “Jewish exclusion area”??
Micah 2
12 I will surely assemble, O Jacob, all of thee; I will surely gather the remnant of Israel; I will put them together as the sheep of Bozrah, (under Esau), as the flock in the midst of their fold:
they shall make great noise by reason of the multitude of men. (like a huge noisy Bible camp meeting).
13 The Breaker is come up before them: they have broken up, and have passed through the gate, and are gone out by it: and their king shall pass before them, and the LORD on the head of them.
EndTimePilgrim.org/Bozexile.htm
and
EndTimePilgrim.org/Bozflight.htm
Have we read Revelation chapter 12?
Are we absolutely sure the woman is “Just the Jews”?
EndTimePilgrim.org/woman.htm
Are we under the blood of Christ?
If so, as we read Ephesians 2:11-17 answer this question.
Do we belong to the Congregation-Commonwealth of Israel???
Is “Jacob’s trouble really “Just Jewish trouble”?
EndTimePilgrim.org/COI.htm
See also
EndTimePilgrim.org/posttrirap.htm
And the crux of the matter?
Is it not our true bridal devotion, - or lack thereof.
EndTimePilgrim.org/bloodcove.htm
We take our commissioning papers to our lawyer.
We ask him when our commission expires.
Is it really seven years before the end of the age?
What did Jesus say?
EndTimePilgrim.org/GreatCom.htm
The bad apple CIA says “fear is the key”.
Has the Western Church been led astray and allowed fear to trump faith?
Is Pre-trib lore a “doctrine of desertion” in the face of craven faithless fear?
What did our apostle Paul have to say in Acts 27 about desertion, and “going AWOL”?
see
EndTimePilgrim.org/Acts27.htm
Teachers get a more strict accounting.
From actual scripture the rapture is just not there. Thess is talking about the endtimes on Christs second return. Very clear. none of the earllests church fathers or jesus ever mentioned that. now I can be convinced but from all ive heard and read,so far its not clear at all that it will happen.
The last half of Daniel's 70 th week, which is called the great tribulation is not God's wrath it is Satan wrath, God's wrath is found in (rev. 16 ) God will not pour out his wrath on his church.
There is no pretrib!
Paul said WE who are alive ''''''',,,,,,, before That Day, what day ? The Day of The Lord COULD ( Mattew 24 and mark 13) The day of the lord could NOT come till the temple was destroyed, NOT ONE STONE WOULD BE LEFT UPON ANOTHER 1..... We who are Alive ( his life time ) 2...... Not one stone upon another 3 .... That day can't come till theres a falling away 4 .... The apostate 5 ....the REVEALING of the man of sin 6 ... THE ABOMINATION 7 ... EVERY eye will see HIM Paul Expected the Rapture Before the Temple was destroyed in 70 AD
TribulationSafe no, but a pre trib harpazo...absolutley..
Bear Creek day of the lord and the day of Christ are two different things.
Hallelujah! I thought I was the only person who believed that there is no rapture at all! All the verses that the Christians use are actually pertaining to Messiahs second coming. I am halfway through listening to this discussion and I have to point out one thing that I have not heard yet. Believing in a pre-tribulation rapture is basically antisemitic! The quiet pride behind the belief is, “we Gentile believers will be caught up in the air and the Jews will have to stay and suffer the rejection of their Messiah through the tribulation!” Nothing could be further from the truth since God has a heart for His people and the gospel is always to go to them first which is pointed out numerous times in the book of Romans. In fact, Romans is a warning to gentile believers not to turn cocky against the Jewish people; which is exactly what the Roman Catholic Church did! when Dr. Brown asked, why do people believe this? The first words out of my mouth were, Escapist Theology!
"Antisemitic"? *SMH* You either, *A)* Don't u/stand the position, or *B)* Just misrepresenting it.
Who will be left behind to endure the tribulation, will be _A N Y O N E_ who has not come to faith PRIOR to the rapture.
The Pre-Trib isn't in the bible. People don't understand what is being stated.
Just take a look at Noah and the Ark......carried His People away to safety.
He didn't take Noah out of the world. The Lord Jesus specifically prayed that the church not be taken out of the world (John 17:15).
Charles Merchant .....but He kept them IN the world.
The Ark represents Christ and his spiritual salvation. Not a promise to save you from physical suffering. Did Jesus prevent the Apostles from being crucified and beheaded? No, he did not. You are not more special than they are, are you? Jesus saves our souls, but our bodies may still be destroyed.
+The Lion:
The Lord Jesus specifically prayed that the church NOT be taken out of the world (John 17:15). Noah was not taken out of the world. The story illustrates God protecting His people IN the world.
+Lion:
First, there can't be an illustration of something the Bible never teaches.
Noah wasn't taken out of the world. So his going into the ark is not an illustration of the rapture at all. He's kept safe in the world, just as the Lord Jesus prayed for His people in John 17:15.
Neither Lot nor Daniel were taken out of the world. The theme of Daniel is God's people being faithful and protected in the world, not beamed out of it.
the temple was destroyed in 70 AD Right ? Paul wrote 1 and 2 Thess in 50 to 51 AD right ? that means that Paul wrote these words 20 Years before the temple was destroyed.. And We that are alive and remain will be Caught Up Pauls use of the word WE to indicate that he expected to be Caught up in his life time.. ,,, so should we
I mentioned Dr David Jeremiah cz ive listened to him n hes a great deliverer n Bible teacher..
When was this show taped because them left behind movies came out over a decade ago.
A new one came out in the last 2-3 years
So, get engaged, leave the bride (the church) to go and prepare a place for her in the father's house. Meantime let the bride get beaten up. Come back and take her out to dinner.
You can stay, I'm going up.
Pre-Trib video: th-cam.com/video/dhWxGQbQUXc/w-d-xo.html
The entire Dispensational Premillennial view of Eschatology is not supported consistently throughout Scripture. It is a cherry-picked view that didn’t come into the limelight until the mid 19th century. If you read scholars like John Gill, Albert Barnes and others that pre-date John Nelson Darby and C.I. Scofield the view is very different than what has become popular today by John MacArthur and Michael Brown and others. Check out Gary DeMar and Kenneth Gentry for a more solid and historically rooted view.
At 39:00 if you take the context in Luke 17:22-37 you know that all is calm (days of Noah and Lot) before the event. Jesus does not come back to earth. There is only a flash of light. The taken (paralambano in greek) means to be received. Jesus said he would receive us but we leave our flesh behind (verse 37). We don't disappear.
Here is my question. I here pastors say that we are the bride of Christ. But in Revolution, John was told to come up here and i will show you the bride of Christ the new Jerusalem coming down from heaven. And several places in the Bible, it says that we are the body of Christ. So how can we be both the body of Christ and the bride of Christ. It just don't make sense to me.
it makes sense, if you understand the body of christ is called the bride, before the new heaven and new earth are made, in which new Jerusalem comes down, out of a new heaven, in a new creation and the old heaven earth will be no more. The city will have His new name and will not be called new Jerusalem and the people will also will be sealed by this new name, same name, as the name of the new city. Rev 3:12
Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write UPON him the NAME OF my God, and the NAME OF THE CITY of my God, WHICH IS new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him MY NEW NAME. Rev 21:1
And I saw A NEW heaven and A NEW earth: for the FIRST heaven AND the FIRST earth were PASSED AWAY; and there was no more sea.
i searched and i searched only Jesus could reveal this mystery post trib both KINDA are right BE HAPPY ITS A GREAT DAY READ: TRIBULATION testimony of a sister who talked with the Lord :
I said, "My Lord, the church is not ready, how are You ready for the big day?"
The Lord showed me in a vision all the churches of my city closed and the soldiers were allowed to invade several houses of the brothers.
I asked the Lord, "Will the church go through the great tribulation? The church will not survive."
The Lord said, "Daughter, the church will not go through all the tribulation, it is necessary that My people see the Antichrist to awaken.”
I asked, “Lord, has it got to be this way; the church cannot go up before the great tribulation?
He said, “For if I come before this sign many will not awaken. You must go through trials to remember Me and seek My presence.
Remember the three young men of the furnace, they went through a great trial, had to pass through the fire to be purified and approved.
Remember Joshua and Caleb who have passed through the great tribulation of the wilderness. They had their faith increased and they inherited the earth that exudes milk and honey.
The church that will be preserved will also inherit eternal life in Heaven. That little time that my church will suffer on earth will be a small tribulation;
she will not go through all tribulation; it will be as a watershed and all who are on earth will know who the true believers are. That affliction that is coming upon the earth will serve to ripen My fruits for the harvest. Are not all the fruits that belong to Me? When this persecution comes on the earth many will fear when it becomes hard and many will drop My name to not suffer persecution; they will stay behind for the great tribulation."
The book of revelation is about a harlot who gets punished ( burned) for her apostasy and the climax of the book is that the wife has made herself ready, if this has not already happened then we are looking at another punishment on the harlot city ( double jeopardy) it's not going to happen.
Question: doesn't there have to be a Rapture type of event on the last day?
We know that "flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God". So, if you're a believer on the last day when the New Jerusalem is coming down from heaven you've got a serious problem. How will the believer enter into the New Jerusalem?
Two verses clearly explain the problem and solution; Revelation 21:1-4, and 1 Corinthians 15:51-55.
"Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God... there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying... Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed... and [when] this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: 'Death is swallowed up in victory'.”
Death still reigns through the Millennium, so clearly there will be people who are labeled as "the dead in Messiah" who themselves must rise first. Furthermore; the people who are living when New Jerusalem comes down must be changed in order to enter. Death is "the last enemy [to be] destroyed" on the last day when New Jerusalem comes down.
Our Lord and Savior said at what time He would raise up His Body (four times) in the Book of John:
Jn 6:39 "... that of all He has given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day."
Jn 6:40 "... [ whosoever] believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day."
Jn 6:44 "... and I will raise him up at the last day"
Jn 6:54 " whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."
In the Book of John, Martha concerning her brother's death said to our Lord and Savior " ...I know that he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day (Jn 11:24)". Clearly, John who wrote the Book of John, Martha, Paul, and our Lord and Savior Jesus all knew this to be true (so what's our problem?).
Conclusion: there has to be a Rapture type of event on the last day.
TRIBULATION
I said, "My Lord, the church is not ready, how are You ready for the big day?"
The Lord showed me in a vision all the churches of my city closed and the soldiers were allowed to invade several houses of the brothers.
I asked the Lord, "Will the church go through the great tribulation? The church will not survive."
The Lord said, "Daughter, the church will not go through all the tribulation, it is necessary that My people see the Antichrist to awaken.”
I asked, “Lord, has it got to be this way; the church cannot go up before the great tribulation?
He said, “For if I come before this sign many will not awaken. You must go through trials to remember Me and seek My presence. Remember the three young men of the furnace, they went through a great trial, had to pass through the fire to be purified and approved. Remember Joshua and Caleb who have passed through the great tribulation of the wilderness. They had their faith increased and they inherited the earth that exudes milk and honey. The church that will be preserved will also inherit eternal life in Heaven. That little time that my church will suffer on earth will be a small tribulation; she will not go through all tribulation; it will be as a watershed and all who are on earth will know who the true believers are. That affliction that is coming upon the earth will serve to ripen My fruits for the harvest. Are not all the fruits that belong to Me? When this persecution comes on the earth many will fear when it becomes hard and many will drop My name to not suffer persecution; they will stay behind for the great tribulation."
Mathew 24:29-31 says the rapture is after the tribulation.
Mathew 24:29-31. 29 Immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall GATHER together his ELECT from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
They say that the tribulation determines the time that the Jesus will arrive. True, but, we will be so busy during the last 3.5 years that we won't KNOW the time or hour that Jesus will come. Thus he will come like a thief in the night. I'm still trying to find a verse that says that Jesus will come twice or that those who accept Christ as Lord and Saviour during the 7 years will have eternal life as if there's a second chance rule. Also that Jesus has already come at that point and said that when he returns the Spiritual gifts will cease. Yet the bible talks about an increase in use of Spiritual gifts during this time period. Who will teach new Christians the way if we are taken up. How does God select who goes and who stays. Would he not want righteous people to lead the way above someone who is a bit lazy in the faith. Yet in a pre Trib ideology those who are righteous in faith would be taken up before the years of tribulation. To many plot holes in a pretrib eschatology in my opinion.
One of the greatest problems I see with this post trib rapture idea is that it makes out salvation to be of works. Like it or not the mark of the beast is an arminian device. Either our salvation is by grace alone without regard to our works or it is by faith plus works. If martyrdom is a REQUIREMENT for salvation then our salvation is not a gift. Our salvation is not paid for by the flesh & blood work of Jesus Christ alone but a pound of our flesh then becomes a part of the payment.
What you see is not that important. What important is why the Bible really says about the rapture.
Great discussion that gives one a lot to chew on.
Hi all. Jesus didn't didn't emphasize pre-trib.
He didn't emphasize mid-trib.
Neither did he emphasize post-trib.
He did ask His disciples to *watch and pray*.
But he did say in Matthew 24 he was coming back after the Tribulation of those days, which means post-trib.
Pre Trib Eschatology has been taught since AD 100 in the epistle of BARNABAS amongst others like Irenaeus, in 'Against Heresies"...Ephraim of Nisibius (306-373BC) et al...From Revelation 4 the Church is in heaven. It's about Israel Rev 4 onwards. If post trib, how does the Marriage Supper of the Lamb fit in all this?...How does the parable of the 10 virgins fit? if not pre trib, how do you reconcile the Imminency of His return? ie expecting the Lord at any moment? 1 Timothy 6:14 1Thessalonians 4:16,17 2Thess 2:1?
Falelodge, you are correct; Dr. Brown is wrong. Add these arguments to your repertoire:
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19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.
20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.
21 For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain. - Isaiah 26:19-21
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When he comes "out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth", is that time we know as the time of great tribulation. Prior to that time, he invites his people to hide themselves "as it were for a little moment, *_until the indignation be overpast_* ."
They hide themselves in their chambers (i.e - a place prepared for them, John 14:3); in his pavilion (Psalm 27:5); which is in heaven (Psalm 18:11).
The invitation to "Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers . . ." occurs *after* a resurrection of the dead spoken of here in verse 19 (also in 1 Thessalonians 4:16,17), but *before* the indignation they hide themselves from.
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Hebrews 9:28 says: "So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and *_unto them that look for him_* shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation."
Apparently then, he does not appear to those _NOT_ looking for him. They then, would not receive that invitation. Therefore, it is of PARAMOUNT importance that we not only be doing what he commanded, but also are looking for his appearing!
Flee from those that counsel you to be unconcerned with watching for your master's immediate return (MATTHEW 24:44-51).
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being I have certified copies of such writings I can say t is fact pre trib was never taught prior to 1830..Barnabas (40-100) knew John and all 12 of Jesus disciples, and traveled with Saint Paul to evangelize among the gentiles, wrote:"The final stumbling block approaches...for the whole [past] time of your faith will profit you nothing, unless now in this wicked
time we also withstand coming sources of danger....then the evil one [Antichrist] may find no means of entrance...."
(Epistle of Barnabas, 4).
Polycarp (70-168) Johns apostle and knew Barnabas, wrote:"He comes as the judge of the living and the dead."
(Epistle to the Philippians, II).
Justin Myrtyr (100-167) a contemporary of Polycarp, wrote:"The man of apostasy [Antichrist], who speaks strange things against the Most High, shall venture to do unlawful deeds on the
earth against us the Christians..." (Dialogue with Trypho, 110).
Irenaeus (138-202) Polycarps apostle and knew Justin Myrtyr,wrote: "And they [the ten kings who will arise] shall lay Babylon waste, and burn her with fire, and shall give their kingdom to the beast, and put the church to flight" (Against Heresies, V,26).
Tertullian (150-220) a contemporary of Irenaeus, wrote:"The souls of the martyrs are taught to wait [Rev.6:9,10,11]...that the beast Antichrist with his false prophet may wage war on the Church of God..."
(On the Resurrection of the flesh, 25).
Hyppolytus (158-240) a contemporary of Tertullian, wrote:"The one thousand two hundred and three score days (the last half of the week) during which the tyrant is to reign and persecute the church..." (Treatise on Christ and Antichrist, 61).
Cyprian (200-258) a contemporary of Hyppolytus, wrote:"The day of affliction has begun to hang over our heads, and the end of the world and the time of the Antichrist to draw near, so that we must all stand prepared for the battle..." (Epistle, 55, 1).
Victorinus (240-303) a contemporary of Cyprian, wrote:"...the times of Antichrist, when all shall be injured."(Commentary on the Appocalypse of the Blessed John, VI, 5).
Lactantius (242-330) a contemporary of Victorinus, wrote:"And power will be given him [Antichrist] to desolate the whole earth for forty two months..." (Divine Institutes, VII, 17).
Athanasius (293-373) a contemporary of Lactantius, wrote:"...they have not spared Thy servants, but are preparing the way for Antichrist." (History of the Arians, VIII, 79).
Ephrain the Syrian (306-373) a contemporary of Athanasius,wrote: "Nothing remains then, except that the coming of our enemy, Antichrist, appear..." (Sermo Asceticus, I).
Cyril of Jerusalem (315-386) a contemporary of Ephrain, wrote:"The church declares to you the things concerning Antichrist before they arrive...it is well that, knowing these things, thou
shouldest make thyself ready beforehand."
(Catechetical Lectures, 15, 9).
Jerome (340-422) a contemporary of Cyril of Jerusalem, wrote:"I told you that Christ would not come unless Antichrist had come before." (Epistle 21).
Chrysostom (345-407) a contemporary of Jerome, wrote:"...the time of Antichrist...will be a sign of the coming of Christ..."(Homilies on II Thessalonians 2:2-3)
Augustine (354-430) a contemporary of Chrysostom, wrote:"But he who reads this passage [Daniel 12:1-13], even half asleep can not fail to see that the kingdom of Antichrist shall fiercely, for
a short time, assail the church..." (The City of God, XX, 23).
Venerable Bede (673-735) wrote:
"[The Church's triumph will] follow the reign of Antichrist."(The Explanation of the Apocalypse, II, 8).
Bernard of Clairvaux (1090-1153) wrote: "There remains only one thing--that the demon of noonday [Antichrist] should appear,to seduce those who still remain in Christ..."(Sermons on the Song of Songs, 33, 16).
Roger Bacon (1214-1274) wrote: "...because of future perils [for the Church] in the times of Antichrist..." (Opus Majus, II, p. 634).
John Wycliffe (1320-1384) wrote:
"Wherefore let us pray to God that He keep us in the hour of temptation, which is coming on all the world, Revelation 3:10."(Writings of the Reverend and Learned John Wycliffe, D.D. p.155)
Martin Luther (1483-1546) wrote:"[The book of Revelation] is intended as a revelation of things that are to happen in the future,and especially of tribulations and disasters for the Church..."
(Works of Martin Luther, VI, p. 481).
Menno Simons (1496-1561) a contemporary of Martin Luther,wrote: "...He [Jesus] will appear as a triumphant Prince and a victorious King to bring judgment. Then will those who persecute
us look upon Him..." (Complete Writings...p. 622).
John Calvin (1509-1564) a contemporary of Menno Simons, wrote: "We ought not to follow in our inquiries after Antichrist,especially where such pride proceeds to a public desolation of the Church." (Institutes, Vol. 2, p. 411).
John Knox (1515-1572) a contemporary of John Calvin), wrote:"...the great love of God towards His Church, whom He pleased to forewarn of dangers to come, so many years before they come to
pass...to wit, the man of sin, the Antichrist the ***** of Babylon."(The History of the Reformation..., I, p. 76).
John Fox (1516-1587) a contemporary of John Knox, wrote:"...that second beast prophesied to come in the later time of the Church...to disturb the whole Church of Christ..."(Acts and Monuments, I).
Daniel Whitby (1638-1726) wrote: "...after the fall of Antichrist, there shall be such a glorious state of the Church...so shall this be the Church of Martyrs, and of those who had not received the Mark of the Beast..." (A Paraphrase and Commentary, p. 696).
Matthew Henry (1662-1714) a contemporary of Daniel Whitby,wrote: "Those who keep the gospel in a time of peace shall be kept by Christ in an hour of temptation [Revelation 3:10] ."
(Commentary, VI, p. 1134).
Jonathan Edwards (1703-1758) a contemporary of Matthew Henry, wrote: "...continuance of Antichrist's reign [when the Church is persecuted] did not commence before the year of Christ 479..." (A history of the Work of Redemption, p. 217).
John Newton (1725-1807) a contemporary of Jonathan Edwards,wrote: "Fear not temptation's fiery day, for I will be thy strength and stay. Thou hast my promise, hold it fast, the trying hour [of]
Rev 3:10, will soon be past." (The Works of the Rev. John Newton, Vol. II, p. 152).
George Muller (1805-1898) wrote:"The scripture declares plainly that the Lord Jesus will not come until the Apostacy shall have taken place, and the man of sin shall have been revealed..."
("Mrs. Mueller's Missionary Tours and Labours, p. 148).
R. Trench (1807-1886) a contemporary of George Muller, wrote:"...the Philadelphian church...to be kept in temptation, not to beexempted from temptation..." (Seven Churches of Asia, p. 183).
Carl F. Keil (1807-1888) a contemporary of R.Trench, wrote:"...the persecution of the last enemy Antichrist against the church of the Lord..." (Biblical Commentary, Vol. XXXIV, p. 503).
S. P. Tregelles (1813-1875) a contemporary of Carl F. Keil, wrote:"The Scripture teaches the Church to wait for the manifestation of Christ. The secret [pre-trib] theory bids us to expect a coming before any such manifestation."(The Hope of Christ's Second Coming, p. 71).
Nathaniel West (1826-1906) a contemporary of S. P. Tregelles,wrote: "[The Pre-Trib Rapture] is built on a postulate (assume to be true), vicious in logic... repudiated by the early Church..."
(The Apostle Paul and the "any moment" Theory, p. 30).
Alexander Maclaren (1826-1910) a contemporary of Nathaniel West, wrote: "He will keep us in the mist of, and also from, the hour of temptation [Revelation 3:10]."(The Episles of John, Jude and the Book of Revelation, p. 266).
M. Vincent (1834-1922) a contemporary of Alexander Maclaren, wrote: "The preposition 'from' implies, not a keeping from temptation, but a keeping in temptation [Revelation 3:10].."
(Word Studies..., p. 466).
Grattan Guinness (1835-1910) a contemporary of M.Vincent,wrote: "...the Church is on earth during the action of the Apocalypse..." (The Approaching End of the Age, p. 136).
Theodor Zahn (1838-1933) a contemporary of Grattan Guinness,wrote:"He will preserve...at the time of the great temptation [Rev.3:10]." (Zahn-Kommentar, I, p. 305).
I.T. Beckwith (1843-1936) a contemporary of Theodor Zahn, wrote:"The Philadelphians...are promised that they shall be carried in safety through the great trial [Rev. 3:10], they shall
not fall." (The Apocalypse of John, p. 484).
Robert Cameron (1845-1922) a contemporary of I.T. Beckwith,wrote:"The Coming for, and the Coming with, the saints, still persists, although it involves a manifest contradiction, two Second comings which is an absurdity." (emphasis mine)
(Scriptural Truth About the Lord's Return, p. 639).
well sister, lets address what you claim.... first lets address who the church is..The sacrifice of Christ benefits all truly repentant sinners who have sincere faith and trust in Christ, but this benefit is conferred as God automatically baptizes all true believers in the Holy Spirit, which places them "into" the Body of Christ (1Cor.12:13) and that "Body" is the Church (Eph.1:22,23), with the result that all believers are "IN Christ" (2Cor.5:17). Being "in Christ" is the place of justification (Gal.2:17), redemption and forgiveness of sins (Eph.1:7). There is no other place, than in Christ's body, for those spiritual transactions in the NT. It will only be people "in Christ" (and in his body), who have been crucified with him, who have died and been burried with him, and are made alive with him (read Rom.6:1-10). For anyone to be saved, God places Jews or Gentiles "in this one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross" (Eph.2:16)... and that one body of reconciliation is the Church (Eph.1:22-23). There will never be any other way to justification, reconciliation to God, redemption, resurrection and eternal life, than by being "IN Christ," which is in his body the Church...and anything else is another way of salvation (and really, another gospel) than is found in the Bible. With sound biblical doctrine we can conclude those in rev 12 verse 17 are in fact the church..
Now lets address the dead must raise first and when this can take place being Paul says we meet Jesus in the rather than heaven...Job Chapter 14 verse 12. The Bible reads "So man lieth down and riseth not till the heavens be no more. They shall not awake nor be raised out of their sleep." So this verse is very clearly stating that those who've died will not be resurrected, they will not live again until the heavens be no moreNow lets address the fact we meet Jesus in the clouds and escort Him right back to earth hence the second coming..Concerning the Lord’s visible, physical return, the apostle Paul tells us, “For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then WE which are alive and REMAIN shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet* ( Greek- apantesiς/ apantesis) the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.” [1 Thessalonians 4:16-17]The Greek word for “meet” used above, apantesis, is a very precise, and very unusual word. The sense is of “a going forth by a group of people to escort an arriver back into the city or the dwelling from which they had just come”, as the people of a city would go out to greet a returning victorious general or king. This particular word only appears in three other places in the entire New Testament: 1.) twice, in the parable of the wise and foolish virgins, a group who waited to go out and greet the bridegroom and then to escort him back to his dwelling place, back to the place from where they had just come [Matthew 25:1-12]; and, 2.) once, in Acts of the Apostles [Acts 28:14-15], which describes a group of people coming out from Rome to meet Paul and then escorting him back to Rome, from where they had just come! “Where we found brethren, and were desired to tarry with them seven days: and so we went toward Rome. And from thence, when the brethren heard of us, they came to meet (apantesiς) us as far as Appii forum, and the three taverns: whom when Paul saw, he thanked God, and took courage.” ALL of these cases clearly describe a GROUP of people GOING OUT to meet an INDIVIDUAL, and then shortly escorting HIM back to the place from which THEY had just come. IF we truly are Biblical literalists (as all Dispensationalists claim to be) we will understand that in the actual Rapture of the Church which is prophesied, when Christ comes, believers will be caught up to meet (apantesis) him in the air, and then to soon return WITH the Lord to the earth, but not in any predictable or specified amount of human time. All of which is IMPOSSIBLE with a pre-Trib/mid-Trib rapture of the Church, but ALL of which fits a post-Trib scenario perfectly.Since Paul says that, at the Rapture of the Church, we will meet the Lord Yeshua in the air and then immediately return with him to the earth, what does this do to the pre-Trib/mid-Trib theories which are the eschatological cornerstones of so many Laodicean churches today?
speaking of those foolish virgins...“And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.” [Matthew 25:10 - KJV] Dispensationalists generally teach that, immediately after the Rapture of the Church, all those who were removed from the earth are immediately taken to “heaven” to celebrate the “marriage supper of the Lamb” with “Jesus”. Not understanding the logical consequences of their own teaching, they often refer to the parable of the wise and foolish virgins as being a metaphor for their “pre-Trib” rapture scenario. But in that parable, as soon as the Bridegroom arrives, he goes in to the wedding feast with ONLY the wise virgins (those who were prepared) and the door is shut, and no one else is admitted after that. IF this really were a metaphor for the Lord’s return - as most dispensationalist Bible “experts” seem to consider it to be - and IF there were going to be a pre-Trib Rapture, this would necessarily mean that NO ONE ELSE COULD BE SAVED during the Tribulation, which theoretically happens AFTER the pre-Trib Rapture. Question :Since we know that people WILL be saved during the Tribulation (the souls beneath the altar, etc.), HOW can this parable from the Lord Yeshua be reconciled with a pre-/mid-Trib Rapture scenario?
Is there a difference between tribulation in general which we saw anyway for the last 2000yrs happening to christians and "THE GREAT TRIBULATION"?
If you're experiencing it, it will seem "great" to you. I think what makes the last one seem "great" is that the persecution of believers will be very widespread - more so than ever before.
Is the understanding of the word generation 2000 yrs ago the same as we understand it today?
The breaks are annoying squared
God didn’t let Jesus make it out alive seeing as he was dead for three days. Why should he let us?
The Bible says we will not know the day or the hour that he comes. But we are to know the season. We are to be watching for the signs. There are three generations spoken of in the Bible. 40 years 70 years and 120 years. Jesus said to learn the parable of the fig tree.
what i like about dr michael: there is so much room for discussion and disagreement in love, restoring in the spirit with brotherhood in yashua the anointed.
bring the king!! 👑 what if some of the book has been added by unGodly men for unGodly purposes? how is that not possible? faith is not blind to the acts of men, nor that God may lead his beloved away. see: david and the census. if the book is the perfect word of God, how shall we presume to say we understand it and so reprove our brother as fallen or wicked or unworthy? it's the mark of a man.
i don't want to be "taken" by God. i want to be led by God. the taken are the wicked, taken because they cannot be led.
The rapture seems to happen in this verse.
Revelation 14:14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
I do not believe in rapture before tribulation. From reading the bible and comparing various scriptures that is not the conclusion I have drawn. The rapture occurs at the sixth seal (which saves us from the bowls of the wrath of God because we are not destined to experience God's wrath) and how do I know this? Matthew 24 states:
"29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet.."
The words 'immeadiately after the tribulation' lets me know Christians will experience some of the tribulation....
When you read Revelations 6:12 it states:
"12 I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and [g]behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the [h]moon became like blood. 13 And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind......Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”
The descriptions in REV 6:12 and Matthew 24:29 are IDENTICAL (great earthquake, sun darkened, stars falling from heaven, people mourning at his coming, etc.) The rapture and the Great day of wrath are simultaneously occurring.
It is so impt to study the scriptures because if ppl believe in PRE-TRIB RAPTURE...and they find themselves in the tribulation...they will think oh no, I have been left behind and get discouraged. When actually we should be looking to be raptured soon at that point and persevering until the end as the bible teaches.....
Dr Michael Brown, I'm surprised at you. I thought you knew the Bible.
You have an, "Ask Dr Brown" program, yet you don't know the end times.
The Bible teaches the pre-tribulation rapture.
And nowhere does the Bible say the Church goes through the great tribulation period.
No description of His coming until Rev 19!!!!
Mat 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
The disciples asked three questions
#1 Tell us, when shall these things be?
#2 and what shall be the sign of thy coming,
#3 and of the end of the world?
here is #2
Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Mar 13:24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
Mar 13:25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
Mar 13:26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
Mar 13:27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
notice the same signs as Jesus gave in Math, Mar, and Paul in 1Th
Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
Revelation 6:12-14 is a description of the Lord coming as it has the same signs Jesus told the Disciples.
i just hope Jesus comes back soon
Being a Bible scholar is one thing, but being a Spirit led Bible scholar is another. The natural mind cannot understand the Bible which is a Spiritual book and can only be understood by the Holy Spirit. The Bible is perfectly clear that the Rapture of the Bride of the Lamb, when the Lord comes to the air for His Church, will be pre Tribulation. When the Son of Man, Jesus Christ, comes in glory at the end of the Tribulation at the second coming TO EARTH, it is also in black and white that the glorified saints will be WITH HIM. They cannot be with Him in glorified bodies like unto His body of glory, if they have not been previously raptured and changed into Christ likeness. The Lord comes Himself to receive us to Himself and take us to the Father's house, as fulfillment of John ch. 14 v 1-3. What happens at the second coming to earth is completely different and the angels are involved in gathering the 'elect' of Israel, the nations must be judged before entrance into the millennial reign on the earth for 1000 years.
Try going to the Bible with an open mind and letting the Spirit teach you what is there. Do not go with your mind made up and try to fit your wrong teaching into what is taught.
The soft g sound of J in Hebrew was sometimes spelled I. Jehovah, Jerusalem, Jericho, Jews, etc.
There is no soft g in Hebrew. The English J used to be pronounced as Y. Correct pronunciation would be Yehovah, Yerushalem, Yericho, Yehudim, Yehudah, Yeshua, etc.
There are at least 4 different times to enter Heaven... For the Bride, there is an Escape before the Pre Trib Rapture... See Luke 21:36 The Pre Trib Rapture Paul Described.
The mid Trib is also correct as well as the Post Trib, but the choice is yours...The choice is yours and it seems like a No Braimer, we want the first flight out... The Harvests also describe the different times to leave. Too bad this is not understood by the masses of people...
at 1:18 about John asking if He's the one.. i always took it as John becoming disillusioned and into depression about being in jail if the real messiah his friend is walking around, but your point is good and perhaps the other half of the equation !! or even the 'whole :0, ive not heard that one before-- surprisingly... i really enjoyed this show
I think its wrong to alter Scripture jst cz things is happening arnd us. I think Jacobs Suffering is quite a distinct event from our everyday persecutions. That is what i think Pre Trib Schollars emphesize as a Suffering so great like its never happened b4. Every part of Earth will have this and that is what needs to be looked at..
i was like you before a houre a go then i read this : a testimony
TRIBULATION
I said, "My Lord, the church is not ready, how are You ready for the big day?"
The Lord showed me in a vision all the churches of my city closed and the soldiers were allowed to invade several houses of the brothers.
I asked the Lord, "Will the church go through the great tribulation? The church will not survive."
The Lord said, "Daughter, the church will not go through all the tribulation, it is necessary that My people see the Antichrist to awaken.”
I asked, “Lord, has it got to be this way; the church cannot go up before the great tribulation?
He said, “For if I come before this sign many will not awaken. You must go through trials to remember Me and seek My presence. Remember the three young men of the furnace, they went through a great trial, had to pass through the fire to be purified and approved. Remember Joshua and Caleb who have passed through the great tribulation of the wilderness. They had their faith increased and they inherited the earth that exudes milk and honey. The church that will be preserved will also inherit eternal life in Heaven. That little time that my church will suffer on earth will be a small tribulation; she will not go through all tribulation; it will be as a watershed and all who are on earth will know who the true believers are. That affliction that is coming upon the earth will serve to ripen My fruits for the harvest. Are not all the fruits that belong to Me? When this persecution comes on the earth many will fear when it becomes hard and many will drop My name to not suffer persecution; they will stay behind for the great tribulation."
I think Brown and Hitchcock would be an awesome debate on this topic.
The rapture topic is horrible to listen to when you bring on a like minded person. It ends up being an echo chamber instead of an exchange of differences.
For instance the "secret rapture" arguement is a red herring. I dont care if the world sees him or not, it makes no difference on the timing of the rapture at all. Its just a red herring arguement.
Id like to see a formal debate on this, I think that would be awesome.
What about the people who already died horrible a horrible ,painful death? T am sure that to them that was their tribulation . People that are killed in storms and disasters also to them it’s the end of their world here on earth. I had 2 sons that died. 1 was only 30 and the other was 35. So who thinks that they are better then the next person? We are all appointed to die , flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God. At this point I myself find it hard to believe in a rapture. Maybe the last Christian’s that were caught up were already physically dead. Idk. I have a very hard time with revelation. However I don’t believe that the church will be taken out. God is not a respecter of persons. This world is a great big lie and tribulation! I can’t wait to be with the Lord.
Mr. Brown, it is a shame you do not stand up against false prophets and false teachers, learned a lot from you but need to distance from you now unless you repent and call these people out by name how the Bible says to and gives several examples of, you should stop being so passive about people who are proven to be deceived and deceiving others, your just as bad sir
Dear Dr. Brown. It is marvelous how the Lord had elevated you to such a status. Blessed be the Lord foe all the favor he had shown you in regard to all the supetnatural open doors of ministry. My husband is a retired Army chaplain. He has written a book on post tribulation theory. He has profound scriptural documentation of the post trib theory. The book is being published now. I am sure he would love to discuss his findings with you. He was ordained through a church in Georgia where wr also ministered to a church that Sid Roth attended. GOD BLESS YOU.
Kathryn Basal Dr. Brown has not been elevated to his position by God, but by the kingdom of darkness. How do I know? He simply will not stand for truth and call out heretics by name, instead he does conferences with them
if you just read the bible 20 times you will NEVER COME UP WITH / PRE-TRIB..JAHOVAS WITNESS / MORMONISM
Ask yourself, can Jesus come tomorrow? If he does, isn’t that pretrib theology?
So if you are dead right now. Then when you are resurrected it is "post trib" the Fall Feasts of the Lord lev.23.
I reject all scripture that is not in line with Yeshua's words to his flock. I used to follow the pre-tribulation rapture. When I got older, I studied the bible for decades and decades on each subject. Comparing the living prophecies in the old testament and aligning them up with the spoken prophecies. There is no pre-deliverance or similar pre-tribulation prophecy in the old testament. The Jews were right there in Egypt through the times of tribulation, everyone else was going through in the region. They were only removed after those times.
Noah and his family lived right there on earth through all those horrible times and were right there up until they got in the ark (still on earth) and the flood took the evil away. The same with the Egyptians when the waters came back together and took them away. The Lords people were right there on earth. All those early disciples suffered the Tribulations of the Last Days. Do you think I am wrong in saying they were living in the last days? "This is that spoken of by the prophet Joel. In the Last Days, I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh..." Peter said that. They were in the last Days and we are in the Last Days.
1 Day is 1,000 years and 1,000 years is a day. "..He will raise us up on the third day" Yeshua (Jesus) was in the earth for three days and on the third day he rose and left the grave. It was two days ago that Yeshua was here on earth. It was two days ago that Peter quoted Joel on the day of Pentecost. The Last Days are the Last Three Days and we are only Two Days into the Last Days. Everything that was to come, is prophesied in the Old Testament as they are a Shadow of Things to Come.
Joseph's life is a perfect prophecy of Yeshua. Brothers did not believe in him. Betrayed and silver exchanged. Handed over to the gentiles. Accused of a crime he was not guilty of, yet accepted the punishment. In prison, two thieves, one freed, one not. Jesus on the cross, two thieves, one freed, one not. Then exalted to rule and the only difference was the thrones they sat on. That is one Living Prophecy. Jeremiah is another one, so is Daniel, so are the 3 Hebrew Children, so is Solomon and Elijah and Sampson. All the parallels are there.
Yeshua said, "If it were possible, even the most elect would be fooled. If it were possible." It is not impossible, because the most Elect are raptured. It is because they are the most Elect and have his Holy Spirit. Again, I will state that I reject any scripture after Yeshua (Jesus) that is contrary to his teaching on the subject. I certainly reject people twisting scripture away form Yeshua's teaching on the subject.
If you reject any scripture, you are wrong and are a rebel against the Lord Jesus who told us that "the Word of God cannot be broken".
yeoberry "If you reject any scripture, you are wrong and are a rebel against the Lord Jesus"
You are wrong. It does not say that in any scripture and so you are altering biblical law, so by your own words, you just rejected Yeshua (Jesus). "The word of God can not be broken." is not in any scripture in the bible. I spent over 40 years studying the Bible, both religions of the Bible and comparing it to other world religions. You are making up fake scripture, that is the second time you lied and twisted scripture. You are really selling your soul to Sheol and should just stop.
+Fla-buschaft Prepper:
The Lord Jesus said in John 10:35 "If he called them gods to whom the word of God came-and Scripture cannot be broken-".
You're wrong and exposed as a fraud.
Excellent! Connected the dots!
Paul said WE who are alive ''''''',,,,,,, before That Day, what day ? The Day of The Lord COULD ( Mattew 24 and mark 13) The day of the lord could NOT come till the temple was destroyed, NOT ONE STONE WOULD BE LEFT UPON ANOTHER 1..... We who are Alive ( his life time ) 2...... Not one stone upon another 3 .... That day can't come till theres a falling away 4 .... The apostate 5 ....the REVEALING of the man of sin 6 ... THE ABOMINATION 7 ... EVERY eye will see HIM Paul Expected the Rapture Before the Temple was destroyed in 70 AD
The tribulation is God's judgment against the unbelieving world. NOT those who belong to Christ. Paul said we are NOT appointed to God's wrath. And that we're going to meet Jesus in the clouds. When Jesus comes again, then everyone will see Him. Therefore, there is the Harpazo, the taking away AKA the rapture, and then the SECOND coming of Christ. How in this world can people who SAY that they belong to Christ, NOT see this!? You can all can stay here during the tribulation, but as for me and my brethren, we're leaving! Have fun!
Watch and pray
The pre-trib rapture is the truth. You have to look at the dispensations of time.
The time of Jacob's trouble (Jeremiah 30:7), i.e., what is commonly called "the great tribulation, (Jesus called it "a time of great tribulation") is not the wrath of God. The time of great tribulation is Satan's wrath against the Jewish people and those who stand with them. It is 3 1/2 years (or 42 months or 1260 days; read Daniel), not seven years. It begins in the middle of Daniel's 70th week, when Satan is evicted by Michael from heaven (Daniel 12 and Revelation 12).
"Christians are always safe from God's wrath." Yes. The Israelites were safe in Goshen from God's wrath against Egypt. They were preserved in the wrath. Noah and his family did not escape the flood; they were preserved through it in the ark.
But let's say for the sake of argument that this "escape theology", as I call it, is, in fact, true. The question I have for anyone who claims to love the Jewish people and believes the pre-trib theory correct is this: Would you be willing to be "left behind" during the time of Jacob's trouble in order to stand with the Jews in their time of distress? Or is your claim to love the Jewish people just lip service?
The answer to that question exposes the heart. This is a heart issue. Those getting slaughtered in the second half of Daniel's 70th week, if the church is not here, are the Jewish people. And if the pre-tribulation doctrine is correct, then Jacob's trouble becomes Jacob's problem. Those who claim to love the Jewish people should stop and think about that, and then examine your heart.
Should have had John MacArthur with you guys
Is the caller a professor of Theology? I thought he is just a novice in the Bible.
One other thing that has not been discussed is the feast days. Jesus' first coming fulfilled the four Spring feast days on their day in the same year. It seems obvious then that His second coming will fulfill the 3 Fall feast days and we could then believe they will be fulfilled in the same year. If that is true then the feast of the trumpet which is considered the rapture would be fulfilled in the same year as the day of atonement and the feast of tabernacles.
Please open the KJV to 2 Thessalonians 2, Mark 13, Matthew 24, Luke 21, & Revelation 6, & compare scripture with scripture, learning not the day or the hour, but rather the timing of end time events in relation to one another. Imagine watching, waiting, and anticipating Jesus Christ returning before the tribulation, only to witness the events unfolding, yet Jesus Christ not coming at the time He is expected by the misinformed. Then, “behold, a pale horse”, bringing lying signs and wonders, and something doesn’t add up. I have been working to bring the truth, according to scripture, to my brothers and sisters in Jesus Christ, yet they will not listen. I’m frustrated, but I will not give up on my fellow believers, and Jesus Christ never has, and never will, because you are the elect in Christ, and your place in Heaven is sealed by the blood of Jesus Christ, the name above all other names. Please pray for our fellow believers, and God bless you all in the name of Jesus Christ!
Luke 21 is not a secret rapture as you would like to ridicule the secret rapture. How is it every time you being up this secret thing you sarcastically laugh. But I got a Tell ya it’s only gonna be a secret to those who are not looking for it
I don't see any arguments about post trib too. I would like to call this program . 😁
Jon 1:17 Now the LORD had prepared a great fish to swallow up Jonah. And Jonah was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights.
Mat 12:39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonah:
Mat 12:40 For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
Joh 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
Joh 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
Luk 23:42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.
Luk 16:19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
Luk 16:20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
Luk 16:21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
Luk 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
Luk 16:23 And in hell he lifted up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
Luk 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
Luk 16:25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
Luk 16:26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
Luk 16:27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
Luk 16:28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
Luk 16:29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
Luk 16:30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
Luk 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
1Pe 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
1Pe 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
1Pe 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
1Pe 4:6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
Mat 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
Mat 27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
Eph 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
What about revelation 7:14
Isaiah 57:1 the righteous is taken away from the evil to come.
1cor 15; 51+52 changed in the twinkling of an eye
1thes 4:16-18 caught up and the lord descends not touching the earth because we are caught up to meet him.
Rev 3:10 not appointed to wrath
1thes 1:10 delivers from wrath.
The 10 virgins 5 waiting eagerly for the groom that comes like a thief in the night for his bride. At the 2nd coming he comes with all the saints in great glory all see thats not like a thief in the night.
Gods wrath was put on jesus for us that we might have the righteousness of God. He is not going to let his bride suffer his wrath which is poured out on the unbelievers.
When the abomination of desolation occurs it’s 1290 days we know the day the second coming we don’t know the day of the rapture.
That which restrains the antichrist is the church it must be taken out of the way so that he can be revealed.
1thes 5:9
Rom5:9
Eph 5:6 all about not suffering his wrath
ENDTIMES FALSE CHURCH FALSE PROPHET ANTICHRIST TRIBULATION ABYSS
When I heard this rebuke my spirit in a matter of seconds was already beside Jesus. He said, "I will show in vision the church that will operate great signs in the Tribulation. This Tribulation church will have millions of branches worldwide. This false church is the only one that will exist and will bring together all the religions of the whole world to form one."
The False Prophet is the leader of this church and will have powers to execute the laws of death, killing people who do not follow the Beast. It will be a totally idolatrous church full of miracles and cures. The images of this church speak and even heal everyone who touches them.
This church has the power to intervene and take away people's freedom. The power that this church will have in people's lives was given through the Beast because of the covenant between the False Prophet and the Antichrist. These two persons will command the world in the great tribulation. The religion commanded by the False Prophet who is the Beast who came up from the Earth. And the policy commanded by the Antichrist who is the Beast who came up out of the sea.
In the vision, I saw the spirit of the Beast rising from the depths of the Earth, from the deepest infernal abyss. And the other spirit went up from the depths of the sea, even from the deep. I believe these two beasts were trapped in the abyss of hell.
The Spirit of the Earth Beast went to the Middle East and won all of Asia. The people of Israel and the Muslims accepted the Beast as their king. This man introduced the anti-Christian religion that came about as the whole appearance of charity is quite attractive. The false appearance of goodness offered the people all iniquity and abomination. He did not fight evil but strengthened sin. This false religion created 2 Gods of flesh in which the people could see and talk.
The False Prophet made the world population bow before him and the Antichrist. This religion was the most idolatrous of all time and operated as many signs as it had never seen before. Not even the churches of our day did as many miracles as I saw in the vision. The false prophets of our day will be too small in healing operations compared to this religion that will come to subdue the world.
The Antichrist will be a strategic man and will lead all religions into a single religion, to which the False Prophet will be the greatest religious leader of all time. The world taken by the religion implanted by the Antichrist will be marked with its sign. This mark will make many be properties of the Beast. And thousands upon millions of demons were released to work in the church of the False Prophet.
I was frightened to see several dark-shadow cults invading Earth. All the people who went to their churches were not faithful to God. Their congregations remained with the same name as the denomination founded by their pastor. But in tribulation who was being worshiped in the temple was the Beast. His statue was within all the earthly churches that were places of worship before God. All the Christian people, who had denied Jesus, were inside the temples being submissive to the greatest authority of the earth, the False Prophet.
The immorality reached a high level that every kind of sin was considered acceptable. The spiritual lives of the people were poisoned by the religious system of the Beast. People were spiritually dead through teaching, worship and the idolatry of the dogmas of the Beast.
The Holy Spirit no longer works in people's lives because of the rottenness of sin. The submission of the people to the anti-Christian teaching caused the Holy Spirit to depart from them. The Holy Spirit was with those who had the seal and remained hidden from the pursuers. The false church caused the spiritual death of almost the entire world population. There were no more evangelical churches to worship Jesus. The temples were invaded by the images of the Beast.
The true worshipers were worshiping Jesus in secret places. And the great signs, healings, strange appearances, and tongues were taking place in the temples of the worshipers of the Beast. All this happened without the presence of the Holy Spirit. Millions of people worshiping, several churches open, but God's chosen ones were not there, because Satan usurped the altar of worship by taking the pulpits of these denominations by profaning them with their filth.
God's people lost their freedom and preached the hidden Word of God. What has been revealed to me was that the world religious system will reign on Earth, and no other religion will stand before this gigantic organization that will crush the world and annihilate all religions on Earth.
Jesus said to me, "Write down everything you saw and witness on Earth."
pintosound thank the lord we will be out of here before this madness happens.
#You boost in all of your prosperity, but you make me sick. Lol. Love that.
No last I heard saggart it was not a lre-trib rapture
No Pre Trib. So many people are going to be disappointed
The church was not here for any of Daniel's previous 69 weeks, so why would we be here for any of the 70th week of a period of time where the bible says Jesus lays waste to the entire Earth and very few people remain. Wake up folks the tribulation is about getting rid of people like in the days of Noah.
Kyle Brasch
On the LAST DAY which is Immediately After the Tribulation in Matthew 24:29.
I think that may be what leads to the "great apostasy" - when Satan persecutes believers, they won't be prepared to suffer for their faith. It will be more than "disappointment."
I suspect the great falling away will be from
When people realize the pretrib is t biblical and they walk away feeling they’ve been lied to
The church is mentioned 19 times in the first 4 chapters of Revelation then not until around the throne in Heaven.
The LORD WILL BE HERE AT THE PRECISE MOMENT HE NEEDS TO BE HERE !!!!!
😁😁😁😁😉
2 Thessalonians 2:1-4
Where is a pre-tribulation rapture for Christians in the Middle East?
It's not in the Word of God. That I am sure of.
Paul said WE who are alive ''''''',,,,,,, before That Day, what day ? The Day of The Lord COULD ( Mattew 24 and mark 13) The day of the lord could NOT come till the temple was destroyed, NOT ONE STONE WOULD BE LEFT UPON ANOTHER 1..... We who are Alive ( his life time ) 2...... Not one stone upon another 3 .... That day can't come till theres a falling away 4 .... The apostate 5 ....the REVEALING of the man of sin 6 ... THE ABOMINATION 7 ... EVERY eye will see HIM Paul Expected the Rapture Before the Temple was destroyed in 70 AD
@@bearcreek9402 we "who remain"! None of the Apostles lived to witness Zechariah 14 (the return of the Lord). It's basic comprehension. He didn't say we will all remain until the coming of the Lord!
That temple was destroyed by the Romans in 70 AD.@@bearcreek9402
@@bearcreek9402 Paul expected no rapture at all.
Thank GOD people's eyes are being opened to this truth!
Hi Dr. Brown, could you please reach out to Perry Stone for a friendly Christian debate about the rapture timing? That would be a great one to see or hear. Robert Breaker on TH-cam is another one that could be interesting.
Also Scott Clarke.
ThaWhiteKnight777 yeah I've been watching him for about a year now
+Chris Burton:
There's no good argument for a pre-tribulation rapture. Ask anyone who believes in pre-trib for a verse that proves it. You'll get a deer-in-the-highlights stare.
yeoberry you should watch Perry Stone because he gives scripture from old testament to the new
Hey yeoberry i use many scriptures in this video if you care to check out the other side of the argument. th-cam.com/video/dhWxGQbQUXc/w-d-xo.html
I have been a post-trip Believer now for about 20 years, it is encouraging to me to hear that someone else came the same way. They studied for themselves they notice that the scriptures that were given did not line up with the pre-trib doctrine, and as he said most only believe it because that's what they were taught. The story is always the same from everyone going to have questioned the pre-trib doctrine. I swear I hear myself speaking through this gentleman. For me it was where does the bible teach 7 years of tribulation?, where does the bible say that the tribulation is the wrath of God?, and more to the point, where does the bible say the church is removed before the tribulation? And let me not forget the very clear reading of 2nd Thessalonians 2, straight to the point and unmistakable.
A lot of comments here miss the point of pre-trib rapture. The Great Tribulation isn't because of a time of persecution..that's been occurring for aeons.. It's a specific time of God's wrath upon the earth... that's the logic of a rapture for Christians before that occurs. If you don't get that point.. you cannot possibly critique it biblically
Very good point. I myself dont believe in a pre trib, I hope I am worng, but you are correct. If the only comment someone can bring agianst pre trib is God doesnt save us from persecution then they miss the point
Yes, most critics of pre-tribulationism are simply ignorant. They don't know what they are criticizing.
The church was not here for any of Daniel's previous 69 weeks, so why would we be here for any of the 70th week of a period of time where the bible says Jesus lays waste to the entire Earth and very few people remain. Wake up folks the tribulation is about getting rid of people like in the days of Noah.
“But in those days, after that tribulation, the
sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, And the stars of
heaven shall fall, and the powersthat are in heaven shall be shaken. And then
shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the
four winds, from the uttermost part of the EARTH to the uttermost part of
heaven.” Mark 13:24-27. KJV
PRE-TRIB. RAPTURE IS FALSE DOCTRINE!
I have carefully listened to both sides of, various individual “experts” or knowledgeable individuals and debates. I have also, examined scripture on my own... both sides have convincing arguments as well as weak; all of this as well as my own research has not convinced me one way or the other because it is too vague as far as an exact time-frame or clear distinction between rapture and second coming...Nevertheless, it is clear that those who are alive and remain, will be “caught up to meet the Lord in the air” can’t argue with this. Christ is not coming on the ground to get those who are still alive at this time. Therefore my goal is to, with the help of God, do my best to arm myself , as the Apostle Paul taught when referring to suffering and enduring any form of tribulation. I get the sense we may never know. So carry on soldier, and not to dwell to heavy on the matter.
ENDTIMES FALSE CHURCH FALSE PROPHET ANTICHRIST TRIBULATION ABYSS
When I heard this rebuke my spirit in a matter of seconds was already beside Jesus. He said, "I will show in vision the church that will operate great signs in the Tribulation. This Tribulation church will have millions of branches worldwide. This false church is the only one that will exist and will bring together all the religions of the whole world to form one."
The False Prophet is the leader of this church and will have powers to execute the laws of death, killing people who do not follow the Beast. It will be a totally idolatrous church full of miracles and cures. The images of this church speak and even heal everyone who touches them.
This church has the power to intervene and take away people's freedom. The power that this church will have in people's lives was given through the Beast because of the covenant between the False Prophet and the Antichrist. These two persons will command the world in the great tribulation. The religion commanded by the False Prophet who is the Beast who came up from the Earth. And the policy commanded by the Antichrist who is the Beast who came up out of the sea.
In the vision, I saw the spirit of the Beast rising from the depths of the Earth, from the deepest infernal abyss. And the other spirit went up from the depths of the sea, even from the deep. I believe these two beasts were trapped in the abyss of hell.
The Spirit of the Earth Beast went to the Middle East and won all of Asia. The people of Israel and the Muslims accepted the Beast as their king. This man introduced the anti-Christian religion that came about as the whole appearance of charity is quite attractive. The false appearance of goodness offered the people all iniquity and abomination. He did not fight evil but strengthened sin. This false religion created 2 Gods of flesh in which the people could see and talk.
The False Prophet made the world population bow before him and the Antichrist. This religion was the most idolatrous of all time and operated as many signs as it had never seen before. Not even the churches of our day did as many miracles as I saw in the vision. The false prophets of our day will be too small in healing operations compared to this religion that will come to subdue the world.
The Antichrist will be a strategic man and will lead all religions into a single religion, to which the False Prophet will be the greatest religious leader of all time. The world taken by the religion implanted by the Antichrist will be marked with its sign. This mark will make many be properties of the Beast. And thousands upon millions of demons were released to work in the church of the False Prophet.
I was frightened to see several dark-shadow cults invading Earth. All the people who went to their churches were not faithful to God. Their congregations remained with the same name as the denomination founded by their pastor. But in tribulation who was being worshiped in the temple was the Beast. His statue was within all the earthly churches that were places of worship before God. All the Christian people, who had denied Jesus, were inside the temples being submissive to the greatest authority of the earth, the False Prophet.
The immorality reached a high level that every kind of sin was considered acceptable. The spiritual lives of the people were poisoned by the religious system of the Beast. People were spiritually dead through teaching, worship and the idolatry of the dogmas of the Beast.
The Holy Spirit no longer works in people's lives because of the rottenness of sin. The submission of the people to the anti-Christian teaching caused the Holy Spirit to depart from them. The Holy Spirit was with those who had the seal and remained hidden from the pursuers. The false church caused the spiritual death of almost the entire world population. There were no more evangelical churches to worship Jesus. The temples were invaded by the images of the Beast.
The true worshipers were worshiping Jesus in secret places. And the great signs, healings, strange appearances, and tongues were taking place in the temples of the worshipers of the Beast. All this happened without the presence of the Holy Spirit. Millions of people worshiping, several churches open, but God's chosen ones were not there, because Satan usurped the altar of worship by taking the pulpits of these denominations by profaning them with their filth.
God's people lost their freedom and preached the hidden Word of God. What has been revealed to me was that the world religious system will reign on Earth, and no other religion will stand before this gigantic organization that will crush the world and annihilate all religions on Earth.
Jesus said to me, "Write down everything you saw and witness on Earth."
Real kindergarden some scriptures say Jesus foot touch the ground other scriptures say hes coming with the saints here and but not in this scripture hes picking up SAINTS COME ON BILL WENT TO THE BALL GAME SUE SAW BILL CATCH A FLY BALL AT THE GAME, STEVE ONLY SAW BILL EATING A HOT DOG AT THE FOOD STAND, OK AND JACK ONLY SAW BILL AT THE GAME IN THE BATHROOM ONLY WASHING HIS HANDS, AT CHRISTS ONE AND ONLY SECOND COMING JESUS WILL BE DOING MILLIONS AND MILLIONS OF THINGS FIGHTING SATAN, DELIEVERING THE GOOD , HEALING THE EARTH, SAVING THE WORLD GOING AND COMING TAKING AND DELIEVERING BUT ITS ALL ONE EVENT THE SECOND COMING WHEN JESUS IS NOT BOUND TO THIS GUY ONLY ONLY SAW THIS SO JESUS IS COMING IS ONE GIANT EVENT WITH LITERLY MILLIONS OF THINGS GOING ON AND HAPPENING ( NOT INTERPTED BY CLEVER CON ARTISTS SAYING HES COMING 2 DIFFERENT TIMES , JESUS ONE AND ONLY EVENT WITH DIFFERENT ACCOUNTS OF DIFFERENT VISIONS , BUT WITH DIFFERENT TIMES OF DIFFERENT PEOPLE WITNESSING THE SAME ONE EVENT!
There is nothing that indicates when we rise to meet Jesus at his 2nd coming, that we don't go down with him as his feet touch the Mt. of Olives.
Except Jesus says himself, very specofically in matthew 24 that his second coming will be after the the antichrist and his return will be at a trumpet blast where his angels gather the elect. Well, in revelation, thats the 7th trumpet.
I am with you Yvette!
I heard recently about churches in other areas where there was severe persecution of Christians but they were preaching the rapture. The leaders said, "we wish that we had preached that which would encourage and sustain our people through persecution; we wish we had preached of tribulation and persecution, not the rapture; we are so sorry."
I think this says enough for me. And if you look at what's happening in the world then you would be honest to admit that the tribulation has already started 😔
Wish I could have called in to discuss. My understanding is that before God's judgement falls on a large scale (i.e., worldwide tribulation), He always provides a way of escape for those who choose to follow and obey Him. Obviously, believers suffer until we're with the Lord...and in various ways, from being rejected by family and friends to martyrdom. For me, I'm actually motivated to obedience, genuine love and service to God precisely because I have no idea when He will return. And I don't want to be living godlessly when He calls me home. My pre-trib viewpoint moves me to a healthy fear and reverence for the Lord, not to complacency. I want to be ready to see Him face-to-face; I don't want to be ashamed because I've been living my way, not His. And there are many writings from church leaders about a pre-trib rapture WELL before Darby in the 1800s. We'll all see what our Lord has planned. Like Dr. Brown, I've studied eschatology for decades, and both my informal and formal studies have convinced me that there is indeed a rapture that occurs before the great tribulation.
How about midtrib?
Last Days 🙌 amen! I feel videos like this are to cause division in Gods people.
Gymkata Hikeeba the tribulation is not Gods judgement
John The Revelator oh yes it is! There are 7 seal judgements, 7 trumpet judgments, and 7 bowl judgements.
“Then I heard the angel in charge of the waters say: “You are just in these judgments, O Holy One, you who are and who were;”
Revelation 16:5 NIV www.bible.com/bible/111/rev.16.5.niv
1 Corinthians 15:50-52 The resurrection will happen AFTER THE LAST TRUMPET.
The dead in Christ shall rise first.
The last trumpet occurs AFTER the tribulation no pretrib rapture