CGI-Phobia in the Anime Community
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 30 ก.ค. 2024
- 3D CGI in Anime gets a lot of hate, and a lot of that hate is getting silly. Especially re: Chainsaw Man.
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#anime #chainsawman #3danimation
Chapters:
0:00 Selling Your Eyes to the Potato Devil
9:28 Genshin Impact Scenery And Sentiment (AD)
11:09 The Magic of Traditional Animation
17:45 A Realm of Infinite Visual Possibilities
27:31 A New Kind of Magic
Anime CGI-phobia
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In the depths of his Mother's Basement, Geoff Thew creates videos analyzing the storytelling techniques of anime and video games. He has been named the number one Worst TH-cam Anime Reviewer by The Top Tens. - ภาพยนตร์และแอนิเมชัน
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The views/opinions expressed in this video are my own.
no it’s not. we have had 3D technology for a while and use it regularly for example video games.
saying the 3D CGI looks cheap and ugly is a completely valid criticism.
it’s not like it’s brand new, earth breaking technology.
that said i guiltily enjoyed cagester, knights of sidonia (which is one of the better ones in looks).
that doesn’t mean they didn’t look ugly
@@draconisthewyvern3664 me when schizophrenia
Good video, but be clear Arcane was animated in France and written in America with American music. It’s a French animation not a anime, calling it anime bit rude to France.
general society defines that ‘anime’ has to be made in Japan or at least Asia or really dosnt count. Anime is not defined by any particular art style but by limited frame animation, witch can only happen when have very low budget 2 d hand drawn animation witch 3d by nature has automatic in-betweens between its key poses so dose not suffer this issue.
@@victornavarro19842 saying something looks bad/ugly is a valid critic regardless if it’s 3D or 2D.
you can enjoy something and have that something also be bad. for example i guiltily enjoy ME 3. that doesn’t mean it’s ending is not kinda 💩
if you as a gamer or enthusiast of anime can’t name one bad game/anime you enjoyed at least a little?
you need to watch/play more games and anime.
"Genshin Impact had an Impact on my frontal lobe and now I can't stop thinking about Ganyu"
-Maxor
There really are people out there who watched Berserk 2016 and just never forgave the entire concept of CGI for it.
To be fair that’s pretty understandable.
I mean I'll never forgive the berserk 2016 production. But also Houseki No kuni is of my favorite anime.
CGI looks great its mostly a compositing issue that requires good communication between the departments.
If an anime studio gets that right shit will look great regardless of the shortcuts taken.
@@FanGirl9463 it really isnt. 💀
A scolded cat fears cold water
It's me, I'm the people
I died when he said "the only season of Promised Neverland", I have literally told people there's only one to prevent them from seeking out that other trainwreck
They should remake Season 2 of TPN. Season 1 was perfect.
Yes they should make a season 2
the suspense of season 1 awesome season 2 was just another shounen
there's no season 2 in ba sing se
It was so natural i didn't even notice it
“Look at the only season of the Promised Neverland….”
Lol that got me in the heart😂
@User Season 1 was one of the best seasons of anime that I’ve ever seen. Shame that it was never renewed.
Seriously prison break shows never reach the same highs once they break out of said prison.
Yeah LMAO it came outta nowhere, too.
Has there... ever been official word or statements on why Season 2 became all... that? There's gotta be a story behind that worth at least an hour long TH-cam video essay. What was the thought process? What was the motivation? Was there a grander plan than wrap it up? Why rush to an ending when most titles these days either continue or just... don't Netflix style?
The world needs to know.
I'm surprised that you only gave Violet Evergarden one very brief mention; that anime combined 2D and CG a lot and that anime was absolutely _gorgeous._ I can't think of a single moment where that show's animation was anything less than amazing; there were a few times where it looked blurry to me, but that was because of me tearing up (I don't think any piece of fiction has ever managed to make me cry nearly as much as Violet Evergarden did).
Probably only got a brief mention because VE is so dang beautifully done that you'd have to be an absolute stubborn mule of a CGI hater to say it looks anywhere near bad
every single typewriter is 3d
2d animating the typewriter for a trailer proved to be difficult since you need time and money so they completely switched
Same
@@NotZedMainand it was phenomenal and amazing
"as someone who grew up knowing knowing every rock was about to blow up" this hit me hard
Geoff basically said everything I was going to add in the video already, but it really reminds me of the hate Mob Psycho 100 got for its use of mixed media in its animation, which was just as stupid a thing to complain about. It's like anime fans have 1 specific Anime Aesthetic that they remember from the Good Anime of the 80's to 2000's, that all anime has to follow, and if it errs in any way from that, then it's Bad Anime.
@@Khotetsu wait people actually complained about MP100s mixed media? That show is far and away one of the best feasts for the eyes I've ever seen.
That and "the only season of Promised Neverland" got me good
@@SingeScorcher Yeah, I can't remember if Geoff made a video talking about it or if it was Super Eyepatch Wolf, but one of them talked about it when season 1 first aired, because people were apparently outraged about how "awful" the animation in MP100 was.
@@Khotetsu I have to agree with this. I've seen a lot of complaints about Studio Shaft's use of collage art and integrated photography along with surreal architectural renders. It does seem sometimes that if you move away from the whole orthodoxy of watercolor-looking backdrops and standard character shots, you'll end up with people who just didn't like having it be different.
The 3D in doro he doro is so consistent that it just becomes it’s own thing. You don’t even think of it as aping 2D
The Dorohedoro manga is absolutely fucking stunning. The quality of that CGI is a total insult.
Bro i didnt even realize it's CG until the cockroach appear. I went like "wait it's all CG??" .
*cocks gun*
"Always has been*
* sobs in waiting for season two * I love Dorohedoro so much, and it's such a perfect example of using one's tools appropriately to achieve something that'd be a total nightmare to do traditionally.
like... I absolutely ADORE Q Hayashida's art style, because it's so hyper detailed, and loose, and sketchy, and grungy... you can feel the artistic process in it, literally I remember finding a panel in the manga where a large portion of the pencil rough sketch just wasn't even erased, and there was something so personal about that. polish isn't the point in Dorohedoro, that world is characterized by the fact that it's messy, and the art style isn't just committed to making it look that way... it feels like the story was conceived to play to the strengths of the kind of art that is Q Hayashida's wheelhouse. the roughness of that art style does not signify a lack of care, skill, or effort. if anything, it's the exact opposite. it is a very specific labor of love to draw out every messy detail in a world full of dirt, and broken things, and garbage, and blood... so to me, those moments of observable technique, where you aren't afraid to show the bones of your process, makes the creation of the art feel psychologically cohesive with the story it's telling.
that being said... it's this exact kind of labor intensive looseness that would make hand animating Q Hayashida's exact art style a total nightmare project. even just hand animating Kaiman would be super difficult because of his irregular head shape, and all those scales. I am absolutely in love with the anime for Dorohedoro, because it feels like the manga and the anime each chose the tools that got them where they needed to go. and now, instead of having just the manga, and a verbatim translation of the manga that moves, we have two very different works of art. the audience gets to have two totally unique experiences with the story, and tbh, the 3D animation still has a similar psychological effect in terms of unapologetically using whatever tools are needed to lovingly portray all the dirt, broken things, garbage, and blood, without skimping, or leaving anything out. if hand animating meant they had to compromise on what they could visually include, then this medium actually was the best way to achieve the most authenticity with their resources.
@@loregoblin3854 If you really feel like its that good, then Ill try it again, but Im not expecting it to wow me. I honestly would've enjoyed if they hired a western studio that does cartoon adaptations of dark comics. I think Dorohedoros manga artstyle is really evocative of that western style.
@@loregoblin3854 yesssss dead on and fingers crossed for season two! I'm loving Dai Dark so far as well and expecting it to only get better so hopefully it'll get an adaptation one day too!
The biggest issue presented by most cgi in anime is when it is extremely noticeable. It actually does take you out of the experience. When the cgi is well integrated, or for games like genshin when 2d illustrations are absent from the game experience entirely they don't create the same jar for the viewer. 3d as a concept isn't the problem, it never was - its integration quality.
This. This is exactly what I was saying, this "jarring effect" happens when these two things looks so different from each other that its terribly noticeable and it takes you out of the experience. Shows and games like: Arcane, Genshin Impact, Spiderman: Into the Spiderverse, and Land of the Lustrous don't have this problem because they're only using one animation style and if it is a mix of 2d and 3d they've done a real good job of hiding it.
@genovaz even 'noticeable' is a case-by-case thing for me, personally. cowboy bebop's CGI is noticeable as hell, but the obvious boundary between the two styles is used strategically. if a story is good enough, i often don't care about how much the 3D stands out. the 1st season of 'golden kamuy' was a great example... the animation is just not good, 2D or 3D, but the story is fantastic and the art is lovely? so i keep watching.
@@Acceleration50 fun fact, almost all the backgrounds in arcane are all 2d and all the lighting is hand painted as well. plus all the effects were 2d too. they really made a master piece
Gumball is the best example of good integration.
Isn’t this the entire point that Jeff made in his video though?
The thing that impresses me most about Chainsaw Man’s CG application is that they combine it with 2D elements in a lot of clever ways most people don’t notice. Making a 3D character in an “anime” style adhere to the basics of 2D animation is HARD and we are starting to see that clever compositing can make use of 3D and 2D in conjunction to cover each medium’s limitations. I saw one in episode four that had my jaw on the FLOOR it was done so well, and those moments don’t get enough credit.
I think the reason it works so well is because denji moves at mach speeds so its hard to focus on how he looks but when he does stops or slows down youre still focus on how insane the fight was and the nutty shit denji is saying about touching boobs, imo the first episode fight didnt look great and really worried me but after the bat devil fight i was reassured and fully back on board
Couldn’t agree more. I think that Mappa blended 2D with 3D really well.
I agree with you! The 3D animated effects from the Chainsaw Man adaptation is so well done! :D
I think Nighthead 2041 combined both elements quite nicely.
Yea just make it not look like shit
Every time I see a CG background or a horse or a car I just think "I bet the artists are glad they didn't have draw that. Good for them."
@@amandak.4246 I mean, you win some, you loose some.
@@amandak.4246 Better let it go, many of these animators don't even have a living wage.
@@amandak.4246 in geenral horses tend to be one of the hardest animals to animate so it's very difficult either way
But an artist did have to make it still!
SAO Abridged Kirito: "haha... _yeah"_
Shout out to The Bad Guys for realizing stylized, cartoony expressiveness and elasticity into a 3D production so masterfully. It's been exiting lately to see CGI used for more than just achieving photo realism.
Another Dreamworks film I’m looking forward to is the new Puss in Boots film
I don’t know if the film will be any good, but the animation alone looks so good 🤩🤩
Honestly, i don't know what kind of witchcraft they did to get that much expressiveness or such crisp, precisely tuned shillouettes
even in the new Trigun trailer, you can see how expressive it is compared to other CGI anime, it looks like it's one of the first anime to use such exaggerated features instead of mimicking realistic effects.
You can do cgi right, just look at fsn ubw
I agree but into the spider verse is the perfect example/blue print.
As someone who grew up loving Reboot, I approve this message. Bad CG can tell a great story and great CG can ruin a moment, but it is not the fault of the CG itself.
Exactly. 3D isn’t the problem. It’s how they use it.
@@onepresence9460 when theyve failed to use it well, then it starts to at the very least, be closely associated with the problem
If its constantly happening then it is a problem.
Another Example of a Good Show made with Primitive CGI: BEAST WARS!
Side note: there's no rotoscoping in chainsaw man. That's just the power of Japanese animators working on 1's
That’s epic 👌
Bro I can't believe Power's dance fron 11th ending is full 2d
Denji vsv Zombies fight was full 2d
Its amazing
People get used to watch onepiss and mha, boruto
That's why they shit on god level aniamtion
@@kenmaru777 imagine confusing rotoscoping and cgi LMAO 🤣🤣🤣
What's rotoscoping?
@@derekhandson351 Put simply, it's animation made in part by tracing live-action footage.
Speaking on the subs v dubs intro, I've been watching anime with my bff who suffers from bad enough dyslexia where most traditional subtitles are not an option, especially in shows where the dialogue moves faster. Nothing she can do about it, but its lead to me watching some dubs and actually discovering some really good voice work in newer shows that really shouldn't be shit on for being a dub. It's absolutely an accessibility thing and I'm glad that her and people who run into problems with subtitles for whatever reason have that option without having a diminished experience.
Just a tangent, but worth pointing out to any of the dub haters out there.
Indeed. Good that she has the option! Personally, sorta the opposite, I have real trouble understanding what I'm hearing, so I like to have subtitles even if they're speaking english. In fact, subbed is even better, because if they're speaking a foreign language, my brain stops straining to comprehend what's being said, meaning I can relax and focus watching more.
Personally there's a couple shows that I absolutely cannot watch subbed after watching the dub. The prime example I have is Rokka no Yuusha, I think they called it Heros of the six Braves or something in english. Either way, hearing the sub vs dub, the voice actors in the sub sound completely emotionless and, In my opinion, bored, whereas the dub cast sounds like they're giving it everything, especially in high emotional moments the characters shouldn't sound like they're chatting over dinner
Edit: spelling dammit, I fat fingered Rolla not Rokka
@@Gore1704 One of my big pet peeves for dubs is that the "closed captioning" for them is just the sub - meaning that they usually don't match what the english cast is saying and it's very annoying. I also have audio processing issues but I'd watch a lot more dubs if they had accurate subtitles
@@MrReznorPlays Fucking hell, yeah, that's so annoying!
I similarly have a friend who I watch anime with who is blind in one eye and it makes it really hard for him to handle subs.
That sequence of Makima walking with the two guys at the end of episode one is not rotoscoped by the way. It was 2D animated by Kouki Fujimoto, an animator who is very good at drawing realistic movements. He was also the one who animated the sequence of Denji getting chased by the zombies.
If there's one thing I learnt from the CSM animation discourse is that people have not been exposed enough to character-acting animation, especially in action anime. CSM Episode 4 had a 2 minute sequence of pure character-acting animation, and despite being anime-original, its easily one of the best scenes in the anime so far. Seriously, prolonged character-acting animation sequences right now is a normal thing for CSM, whereas its a VERY RARE thing in other action anime.
Amazing. In many scenes in CSM I was like "this is rotoscoped, it's too damn good."
yeah pretty funny he would give an example of rotoscoping that was actually just pure 2d animation. People's coats would never flutter like that IRL, it's definitely exaggerated, just not by much.
Honestly, I couldn't tell if the shot with Makima walking into the warehouse in Episode 1 was CGI or not, but neither way I thought it looked fantastic. And just like the rest of the show it absolutely freakin does. I love this show, the story is amazing, the action is over-the-top awesome, the music is always wonderful and the animation is drop dead gorgeous.
I'd add that Fujimoto (like many other respected animators) use live action references in some instances and it's definitely not the same as rotoscopy. Even people with trained eyes sometime confuse the two techniques.
Arcane is still the best example of hand drawn 3d style ive ever seen
And these veggies anime fans still say.
‘Oh but Berserk 2016 traumatised me really hard and it hurtz.’
It's one of the most expensive too, so no surprises there.
@@soysource3218 i mean berserk 2016 fucking sucks
ITS DRAWN?!?!
@@sovietdoggo3779 the backgronds and shading/coloring are painted and 2d and the character are 2d models
Listen. When I work traditionally, my lines get jittery if I don't press down the pen like I'm interrogating it. I can work for maybe 2-3 hours, tops.
I don't have to do that with my tablet. I can create **so much more** due to it. I spent almost 20 years learning how to draw, and it's utterly infuriating when that work gets thrown out for the sin of not being on paper. People don't realize that they're literally in the golden age of media creation right now. It's crazy.
It's not Japanese, but French, but "Code Lyoko" uses a fascinating mix of 2d and 3d animation. I really recommend it!
What a throwback…used to watch that as a kid
Non-Japanese anime are valid! Spiderverse (Canadian animators), The Dragon Prince (also Canadian animators), and Arcane (also French, and Spanish) were mentioned in the video.
And yeah, Code Lyoko was great! Its 3D hasn't aged well in terms of its technology, but it absolutely does a great job at conveying the action and intensity of the cyberspace sequences. And not just in fights, but also drama - for example, that one episode where Odd gets poisoned with laughing gas inside the digitization chamber, and his avatar ends up lurching forward drowsily, occasionally intercut with swaying, blurring POV shots. That's pretty intense, and it's hard to imagine something similar having the same impact with just 2D animation.
BLAST TO THE PAST man
It's also anime
Code Lyoko is so cool! Good times...
as a 3D animator I know the problem, what anime studios need is good animation (its good but soo good that people don't notice 3D as much) but the thing is that good animation takes a loooot of time and end of the day 3D is used to save time.
You hit the nail on the head. That's exactly the problem.
@@BigFry9591 example of 3D done right - Arcane, and the reason it's so good is the animation.
And bleding 2d and 3d animation as is comen in most productions is even harder.
That's it? Not gonna tell them to reshape deform the mesh to look like drawing prediction Instead of 14fps perfectly shaped movement/rotation moving around like a laggy videogame?
@@Deezsirrer pootis engage would like to have a word with you
I feel like Beastars never gets enough praise for its visuals, although that might be because no-one's watched it because they all just see it as "the furry anime". If I wasn't completely sold on CGI anime before I was after Beastars. It looks stunning to me. The amazing composition and how good the show is at building atmosphere helps enormously, too, but there are little movements that are so much more expressive and effective with the CGI. The scene in season 2 with Legosi's tail wagging, for example.
But I have to say, I was still humbled by this video as I have been complaining about the CGI in Blue Lock yet indeed did not notice the CGI in Spy x Family at all. I think the only reason it's bothering me in BL is that even though it's used sparingly and not for important moments, it's very obviously different in style from the hand-drawn characters so it can be a bit jarring when it suddenly switches between 2D and CGI in a single scene. I never saw anything that glaring in KNB and Haikyuu so I suppose I felt a little disappointed.
Beastars is freaking amazing. It’s 3D CG animation done right. No wonder it’s by Studio Orange, that also made Houseki no Kuni.
Beastars being seen as "the furry anime" is super disappointing since it is strongly written drama.
Nobody sometimes seen interest in furry either and we all seen fury does been killed like a lot
@@kingace6186the whole show is furry beside a drama that hits the drawbacks
All seen a meme is just furry getting killed by nazi
To add: The CGI style of Arcane has been around since 2013 with the release of the Get Jinxed music video for League Of Legends and it still looks good to this day. Fortiche Studio is really good with their art style. They've made more with that art style ever since for Riot Games.
I don't know if it's also Fortiche who did the Tales Of Runeterra videos, Night At The Inn, & even the trailer for The Ruined King game, but the style is still really great.
I've never heard of Steam Boy and was really surprised that the movie was made in the early 2000s. It looks like it came out more recently
Land of the Lustrous is literally the anime that defeated the comments that CGI in anime is bad
It's so pretty. Orange please make more
For me was watching dorohedoro. Arcane was something else, the series had more realism than most live action movies I have seen
I wish we could get a second season so badly, if only so the anime onlies can experience the soul crushing despair that lies in the manga.
*Time to wait a thousand years...*
I loved houseki no kuni one of my favorite anime but hated the cgi in Attack on titan: final season specifically. For me humans and animals or anything organic in cgi looks horrible.
Mechs look awesome to me and cars remind me of the ps2 era...
I really can't say cgi is all good or all bad... it REALLY depends.
Code geass great! The mechs are detailed and flashy and they blend well with aesthetic
Berserk 2016 😬
Houseki no Kuni, fabulous! The whole show is 3D which makes it so much more stylized and unique I'd honestly enjoy it less if it was 2D. Wince the characters are rocks there's less work to be done on humanizing their features and making them less uncanny, yet still they feel human!
season one of initial d 😭 The cars are horrible and ugly but there's a charm to them I just can't look past them sometimes the 86 looks perfect in almost evey scene however.
There's pros and cons, it can take me out of the anime really fast if it isn't done just right and sometimes it can look amazing!
Like the fight scene between broly and goku in super!!
Attack on titan: final season, made me miss the 2d titans, the choreography was a lot better in the earlier seasons too I felt. The story helped me look the other way but rewatching that warhammer fight scene was painful!! Eren punching the stands looked so lifeless! His titan, which was usually the most emotive looked like a 3D model-- because it is.... I wish I could describe this better he just looks lifeless and less like a lifelike character that can respond to external stimulus and more like a clay doll which can only be posed at certain joints and has one or two extra heads that you can swap off. The lifelessness could be intentional but I can't help but miss the older scenes like eren transforming to fight annie for the first time!
Sorry for the essay TL;DR: I think that we should accept that cgi isn't always great or always bad, people are entitled to their opinion of whether it's bad or not, it is just an opinion there is no right answer!
1 exception won't make a rule. And really the only thing that saved that, is that it DIDN'T try to look like anime.
Also the CGI in live action Japanese movies is really bad too...
"Look at the ONLY SEASON of Promised Neverland" You are a champion sir.
The Promised Neverland deserves a second season. I loved the first one.
@@onepresence9460 *looks around* yeah... A second season... *sweats*
As a Zoids fan, I appreciate the early 2000s cgi anime defense.
That’s the spirit 👌
Houseki no Kuni is one of the most unique anime that has ever released and the CGI did it so much justice, the movement is so much more dynamic than 2D would ever allow. I really hope Orange releases more seasons because it's been 5 years since season 1
I'm so glad somebody mentions Houseki no Kuni. The animation style was so fresh, so novel. I had not even realized myself this was CGI until I read review comments. CGI can and **will** be good when done well.
‼️ I think Hollywood blockbuster movies are what ruined CGI for Western audiences. These arguments people make against CGI that they're directing towards anime, are actually true and valid arguments against using CGI in Blockbuster movies. Do you see what I mean? So many Hollywood movies don't have good writing they have terrible story, terrible wooden dialogue, and are counting on the special effects looking cool to keep people coming in. Such as the vast majority of superhero movies that have come out in the last 15 years and the new Star Wars movies. What percentage of all those would you say has an amazing story? Like a handful at best. So I think it's Hollywood that has made people viscerally hate CGI every time they see it. I don't think it actually has anything to do with anime.
@@WhitneyDahlin those aren't valid reasons to dislike cgi in movies. the dc movies were bad because Zack Snyder but as for marvel how many had an amazing story the first like 18/20 movies did.
and people have whined about cgi since it was invented, nothing to do with the super hero movies.
Thank you!! Houseki no Kuni was what made me start adoring 3d cgi in anime. I could go on for 10 years about how well they adapted the manga into the anime just because its one of the most amazing anime i've ever seen
@@wesleywyndam-pryce5305 I was just using those as an example. They use pretty effects to make up for bad writing. The new Star Wars are the poster child for that. Also all of Marvel and 90% of other blockbusters. Sorry it's just my opinion. The average quality of movies Hollywood puts out now vs 20 years is drastically worse. The invention of CGI has made movies much worse because Hollywood knows people won't notice the dialogue if there are cool special effects. For every 1 movie that doesn't lean on CGI to hide bad writing I can show you 10 that do.
Arcane and Into the Spider-Verse are two of the most beautifully animated things I've ever seen. I love them so much! And I think Chainsaw Man looks incredible.
Arcane and spiderman were properly made .. all the rest of CSM is good... Nobody hates 3d, reason why Jeff had to change the title of the video... People hate ugly looking CGI and this one it is, is not knights of sidonya bad but is not even dragons prince passable.... Make an exercise yourself, can this anime be watched entirely if all was animated like those fights? No, it will be berserk 2 (another good ip ruined), that's why this is not arcane nor into the spiderverse, is just a disrespect to compare them
@@adrianojv409 Japanese 3d artists are just not as skilled as western ones
Have you seen TRON:Uprising?
Honestly chainsaw man cgi kinda suck
@@hoangblox9991 yeah, no one thinks CGI is bad since CGI can get great if done well, but the CGI in csm is definitely not it.
I really wish more people would watch Land of the Lustrous. It's fully CG and is amazing, it truly shows the true potential of CG. For people who are big fans of animation - they really don't know much about it.
Agreed. That anime is really awesome. Beastars, Knights of Sidonia, Ajin: Demi Human, Blame! and Kengan Ashura are other 3D anime that i like as well.
@@onepresence9460 I'm glad someone mentioned Kengan Asura. Not the best cgi but it works with the show. Wouldn't have it any other way
Fully CG should watch Chinese one, Ling Cage Incarnation, Battle through the heavens(Three Years Agreement special), The Island of Siliang and more..
I feel like DJ4D is a really good example of the mix between 2d and 3d anime that looks really good
In terms of animation and its blending. Yeah, I very much agree with this. Enjoyed D4DJ for that.
I still remember how after first episode Land of the Lustrous had score about 6,5 on MAL just because of it being full CGI.
But it's so beautiful 🥺
But it's so beautiful
But It's so beautiful
But it's so beautiful
Wtf
I think the main complaint is actually the compositing but people don't have the correct language to explain it.
The jarring feeling of one element standing out in something is what people really dislike.
When everything blends in a scene, 2D and/or 3D, as long as its cohesive there tend to be less complaints
The CGI stands out, and they are trying for it not to. That's the problem, cars have been cgi in anime for years and people don't notice. But the fluid animation in characters constrast too much with 2d animation for it to look good in my opinion. The last guilty gears actually are a good example of good integration, they reduced the frames of the animation and used a lot of other tricks to make the CGI have the same feeling of 2d.
Yep
What ends up working best, in my view, is when CG takes care of mechanical or structural elements, and anything human or organic is hand-drawn. This works especially well with spacecraft and city shots, when you don't have to composite them together. Just my two cents.
Like Demon Slayer, Treasure Planet and The Prince of Egypt.
Treasure planet’s blending of cgi and 2D animation still holds up wonderfully, ESPECIALLY Silver’s mechanical arm. it blends in so well that I can still forget it’s 3d
I hate how people argue the CG debate for me it is a wholly personal thing that I will never push onto other people. I personally have an issue with CG because for some dumb reason my brain finds it very distracting especially in an anime setting. That doesn’t make it bad it just means it’s a harder barrier of entry to me. Just like how the art I love has a lot of barrier to entry for many other people. It doesn’t make it better or worse it is simply different and there is a lot of beauty in that.
It feels very similar to how I feel about FPS games. I don’t enjoy games like Fortnite and MW2 (202X) because I find them to not be engaging personally. But obviously they are good at what they do. It’s just not what I want.
I've literally seen people give up on Golden Kamuy just because of the CGI bear in the first episode even though it's dealt with and never seen again after episode 1. It's not even bad, look at the detail on its fur, like holy shit.
Oh my god, THIS. I 100% agree with you on this. The people who can’t get past that will never experience the glory that is GK otherwise.
a damn shame to miss out on GK just for that
Tbh I dropped GK for the bear too. It's not just realistic, it's photorealistic, and nothing else is, to the point where I was genuinely unsure if it was a joke at first.
Glad to hear that doesn't pop up again, maybe I should revisit. In general I very much agree with the video and think that's a stupid reason to drop shows 90% of the time.
I admittedly still need to catch up on GK... But I the bear in the 1st season didn't really detract to how good I found it. Then again I'm not the kind of guy who judges anime based on what animation style or medium they use. I don't want to miss out on the fun just because of some weird prejudice.
Fact: the CGI bear is not a good reason to drop the whole anime, since as you said it's a one-off occurrence.
Also fact: come on, it looks like fucking ass though.
I have to say, as an animator, that zombie fight scene in chainsaw man definitely had some rough, and partially awkward motion in the CGI department. The cinemetography, the shot composition and the posing were all amazing, but there was a stilt to some of the motion. I see where people could have issues there.
HOWEVER! Chainsaw Man overall has the best, and most consistently good animation out of anything I've seen come out recently, and that is in part to the freedom of its CGI. Imagining drawing every turn of that chainsaw hurts my brain, and for the most part it blends in seemlessly with the background... But that first episode had me nervous.
Just saying the people with issues with parts of that first episode are not completely, as you say "without eyes."
Dorohedoro does this better if you ask me.
I agree with this. The CGI in Chainsaw Man, especially the first episode, was PRETTY bad in spots. I was a little disappointed. However the next few episodes have not actually had those jarring moments of CGI. And a lot of it is done well. Hopefully episode 1 was a bit of an outlier, and so far it looks like that might be the case.
Its more due to there complaints being so over the top.
Like as if the bad portions in there are "the worst" 3dcg ever.
Same thing with Bleach TYBW episode 1, when people dissed the 3dcg Hollows, when the cg Hollows looks more convincingly scarier and better than most 2d Hollows in the og Bleach
@@SteeleResolve yup, even the 2d bits in there also don't look that great either
Thank you for your insight.
I think that for some folks, the still baffling choice of japanese cg houses to use limited animation frames for full cg models makes it more "jittery" even though the 2d animation around it is still using the same limited frames. As you say, the shot composition is great (ie the key frames) but the in between is not done generally by animators like it is with hand drawn, but by the animation engine of the cgi software, so it "feels" different.
I will also like to point out, that there are people that watch shows on tvs with motion smoothing turned on. I know it is a preference for some (i personally think it is horrible, even if the tech has improved over the years) and it cannot "smoothen" scenes where limited animation was composed on top of full frame backgrounds, so it looks even worse on those.
So while i disagree with the "without eyes" fighting words, i will have to admit that hard core anime viewers handle/dont see the flaws of limited animation in cgi, better than an average viewer, used to smoother 3d cgi of live action movies or western 3d animation and video game cutscenes.
So i think it is a matter of misunderstanding terms. Animation is the act of drawing still models to move, this mappa does very very well. Animation smoothness is achieved by having more frames animated, more frames always equals more time/money to animate, regardless if it is human hands or computers. So on a tv schedule, even with a larger than usual budget like chainsaw man, corners need to be cut in the generation of frames. The time and energy is all spent in key frames so that things look good when it counts.
Here's the issue, CGI itself isn't the problem, it's the fact that it's easy to notice. Even chainsaw man it is very easy to tell when they switch between the two. The reason no one really complains about the effects and backgrounds is because it's hidden, its not the main focus and that it's a static image. The moment you put something up front, something to focus on it's usually in motion and the way CGI creations move is very easy to see. As mentioned the shows that do it best don't do it in an obvious way, because they hide it behind something else either the way it's framed or in terms of action scenes theirs just simply to much shit to focus on
Denji being bright as FUCK in episode 1 makes it so nasty. Its so noticable. CG cars are the worst too
Yes. So many people saying "yOu CaN't eVeN TeLl tHeRe's aNy CGi" like sorry but we can lol. I'm sure there are people who genuinely can't tell the difference between the 3d and 2d. But for a lot of us, it is painfully obvious 99% of the time.
Yeah. Can't believe that majority of people can be so dumb. They say CG is always used in the background but you can't tell them?
Like...how dumb can you be!?
Yes I agree. Cgi in chainsaw man broke my immersion so I didn't like it
@@TKMezo I am not even a cgi hater. I love the movements cgi brings and absolutely love beastars and dorohedoro. I personally believe if csm had just used better adjustments to the colouring and brightness, it would've brought the criticism down a lot.
It's been a few hours since my viewing but I remember a point you've made about how animators had to figure stuff out (paraphrasing) and I couldn't help but mentally compare that to giving a chisel to a brilliant painter. Yes, the first artwork made with it won't be brilliant, however, the experience they have on their 2D platform will eventually shine on the new 3D canvas as they learn to make use of the tool. It isn't easy to apply something you've known all your life in 2D to 3D. But once it all clicks and the artist becomes used to the new tool, and the new form(s) they can create, it can be something to behold. Going from 3D to 2D is easier than the reverse, so many new options are on the table it can be daunting to try and get it even remotely right, especially to discerning eyes.
People forget that very often. I'm likely not wording this as well as I could, or should, but still. This is my perspective on CGI use in anime or other works that heavily feature 2D.
After holding off on watching Dorohedoro for like a year because it was "CG" I will no longer let CG stop me from watching a show. It was so damn good.
I still felt 2d would’ve looked better, but I’d have taken DRHDR stick figures honestly, it’s so good
Even bad CG that is unintentionally hilarious can be great when put in a show that is INTENTIONALLY hilarious. I will fight to the death for Golden Kamuys bad CG bear.
Im still waiting for season 2
Story is good as fck
It didn't look good, and I didn't enjoy it either.
@@janisir4529 and not a single person cared about what you said this day.
Lupin III the First is probably the first anime I've seen that perfectly captured the energy and artisanry of cel animation. And that film doesn't even TRY to look 2D.
Reminds me a lot of what Tartakovsky did with the Hotel Transylvania movies
@@mothersbasement Now you've got me thinking of a Lupin III film by Genndy Tartakovsky.
And don't forget that Doraemon "stand by me" Did the same thing
Lupin III the First was freaking awesome.
@@kieranking7173 Wouldn't that be a hell of a thing.
Houseki no Kuni shatters CGI phobia.
They manage to make CGI look beter than actual hand drawn animation.
It's also a great story and holy crap does it get dark
What Studio Orange did with Houseki no Kuni was absolutely unbelievable. It’s their finest work imo.
100% agree!! I hope we get a season 2 someday
If you are after more of it, there is a fine 2D short you can find on TH-cam.
@@marsmons2118 considering Studio Orange is gonna be busy with their original take on Trigun and the final season of Beastars, I don't think Houseki no Kuni will ever get a season 2. At least not for the next 5-7 years
I think there's a bit of a misconception with this video- Most people are chill with 3D environments, it's the character models themselves constantly flipping back and forth between traditional and 3D that calls attention to itself and brings you out of the show. It's not even that it's bad, it's the constant fluctuating and obvious style change that takes you out of the experience. CSM does this well with rotoscoping, but there are still shots that distract and feel like they're from a different show.
Oh man, I have the exact same view on this... I would love to consider CSM close to being "perfect/ideal", but the fluctuations are just too off-putting and distracting for me as a somewhat of a nit picking person.
As far as I'm aware, Chainsaw Man hasn't used rotoscoping in a single episode yet (up to ep 9). The super realistic animations you are probably referring to are mostly done by a talented animator called Kouki Fujimoto who is an absolute master at animating life-like scenes all entirely by hand. He animated Denji and Power dancing in the opening, Makima and her two colleagues walking towards the warehouse in episode 1, Aki vs Katana Man and many many more.
The only instances of rotoscoping being used in CSM to my knowledge are a few cuts of Power dancing in the 4th ending.
I feel like you perfectly explained it the weird disconnected between random scenes being 2d to them being 3d in the next just highlights the cgi I don’t mind things like arcane where it is integrated so well and consistently (at least it looks consistent I have no knowledge on animation) but in most anime it’s just so inconsistent and it’s usually used for crucial scenes like fight scenes that include a lot of movement that would probably be too demanding for already overworked animators so at scene we anticipate most the art style just changes and we almost instantly get disappointed
Honestly I never really got that "jarring effect" watching Chainsaw Man like I did when watching Black Summoner, for example. The transitions always felt really smooth and well done to me, and because some piece of every scene was always CG while others were always drawn, it all flowed really well for me visually. To me, having some visual elements in common between both mainly CG and mainly drawn scenes to link them together is the key to making the entire work flow smoothly and not pull you out of the experience. Hell, even the example of not doing it so well that I used, Black Summoner, at least tried to transition to the CG fight scenes bit by bit instead of all at once, so I liked that. It was just the difference in the feeling of motion and space during the CG fights was too great compared to the rest of the show. Personally I still enjoyed the series in spite of that. I think for me, with every year(or every season, really) CG is becoming better integrated and executed in anime and we're not too far off from when it just feels "right" like good hand drawn animation does.
I know the subs vs. dubs thing was a small example used in the video but I gotta say, the modern anime landscape is so cool with this. There are English VAs I like and Japanese VAs I like, and I get to choose which version of the anime I watch based on the cast I prefer. That's a pretty unique position for a piece of media to be in.
I prefer subs because I am hearing impaired but dubs work for multitasking.
It's not always either an attention issue either, ie "dubs so you don't have to read." There are some shows I just think are flat out better dubbed. I grew up with the English cast of DBZ, and FMA:B is a classic example of this. Games too, if a game is set in Japan I will usually set the language to Japanese for immersion but I just can't detach my image of Persona 5's characters from their English voices.
Dubs and CG are both a matter of utilization, who are the people working on it, how is it being directed, etc. And dubs have a LOT of restrictions, just look at what happens when a VA gets to dub a character that doesn't have a mouth.
I also appreciate cheesy dubs for different reasons.
@@WakkaMadeInYevon Same. There are a few animes which I just prefer the English VAs for. Like FMA and Black Clover. If the sub and dub are both available when I start the first episode of a series I'll check out both for a few minutes to see which sounds better for my preference.
Im German so I do This for every movie and series on the planet lol.
@@kerwinbrown4180 I'm actually the opposite. For a long time, I was a bit of a sub purist (not gatekeeping, but definitely watched everything sub for myself), until my eyesight degenerated enough that I can't watch fight scenes and read dialogue at the same time, especially since colors blend too much for me now and I can barely read subtitles against certain backdrops. I've had to switch over to dub almost entirely.
I think Star Wars: The Clone Wars shows this process you’re talking about really well. You can literally see their competency with the tech evolve over the course of the show to the point where the last season looks like a theatrical production. Also one of the big take aways I got from this video was that we need to start encouraging people to stop seeing art as a product and more as a process that we’re all participating in together! Idk I think maybe it could go a long way in making our community less divisive and more focused on having productive conversations
I was thinking about the Clone Wars and wondered if anyone would bring it up! The last season of The Clone Wars is gorgeous and so is The Bad Batch. Rebels is excellent too even thought the budget was lower. The animation did start out rough, but as someone who hated the art style before I started watching it, the recent animation is definitely some of my favorite!
And From a similar time period there is TRON:Uprising. Interesting mixed use of cell shaded animation and painted backgrounds in some scenes. Very strong use of light and shadows; cause I mean its TRON. Sick environment design. Good use of simple silhouettes for the character models.
agreed. Clone wars is one of the all time greatest shows for me
The whole video Geoff was going on how 2d was unfeasible due to financial realities (viewing the art as PRODUCT), so i don't know how you took that away from the video
Man i love The Clone Wars so much.
i somewhat noticed the cgi when the transformation happened and a small part of me went "that looks kinda jank" but that part of me was shut out when denji started kicking ass, i really dont mind it as long as the choreography can keep my attention like it did in the episode 1 fight
people have certainly overblown the CGI in chainsaw man you need to be honest with yourself, as much as i love chainsaw man its CG does become a bit distracting from time to time.
A 35 minute long video about CGI and not even a mention of Aijin. That anime is ridiculously underrated...
I loved Ajin. The 3D CGI Animation was great in that Anime. Never knew and probably will never know why people didn’t like it.
@@onepresence9460
I LOVED Ajin. I don't get why people complained about it either. Sure it may look a little janky but it looked fine to me.
Aijin is amazing more people should watch it
Ironic for me because mothers basement is the one that convinced me to watch ajin
@@onepresence9460 On god Ajin was a great anime. I’m not really one who enjoys bad CGI in anime but Ajin’s fight scenes were so fucking cool that I didn’t even care
What's really funny are the people who don't realize how much of Chainsaw Man is CG but they'd never know. Also, I think CSM is doing some really unique compositing with a CG body and a hand animated face at times.
Also, most people don't know when CGI was actually used.
Like, the zombies were CG, and it was SO GOOD because the were shadows used to create depth.
@Mark Ryan Francisco
How so?
I think when CGI is used as a stylistic choice, it can also be effective. The first anime I ever watched, Deltora Quest, based on a series of children's books by a Australian Author, making it the first 'Aussie Anime', Uses CGI for the Guardians of the McGuffin's, not because they are complex, but to show that they are different from other foes(and to pay homage to the book cover art). It was one of my favourite book series in primary school, and a decent anime that was not only shown on regular tv, but TAUGHT in schools about adapting media.
Its a decent anime as well, if a little PG, but character design and growth is excellent, I recommend it too anyone wanting the feeling of getting home from school and watching cartoons
I love when they choose 3D CG as an artistic choice, rather than a cheaper way to make animation (Which is not entirely true). Arcane, Spider-Verse, The Mitchells and The Bad Guys comes to mind.
you made me remember a locked away memory. Thanks for that.
Thankfully, my first experience with CGI is Houseki no Kuni and my first experience with dubbing is Black Lagoon…
And felt in love with them
I liked berserk 3d
It was my 1st time experience with berserk
And now Im hardcore Berserk fan
Story is Story
Doesn't matter how animation is bad
Actually, i'm one of those people that found the CGI on ep1 awkward. But with all that they've accomplished with it on episode 2-4. I'm just a grateful power stand now
This. The CG in the Zombie scene is genuinely not great. The problem that a lot of CG in anime tends to have is that you can see the bones in the character rig, so it looks rigid when compared to the 2D animation. The Zombie fight had a TON of that. Also, the neck of the Chainsaw head doesn't feel attached to the body because of how sharp the texture divide is between them. The Bat and Leech Demon fights were orders of magnitude better looking; it seems like they added a lot more smearing and warping which helped blend it with the 2D animation much better.
@@RuinaLux agreed, but I also don’t understand why the cgi is noticeable in chainsaw man, but with the animation in jujustsu Kaisen if it uses CG at all you can pick it out, so why did mappa animate chainsaw man worse than JJK
@@portlandshomlessproblem1728 Chainsaw Man is not "worse animated" than Jujutsu Kaisen at all. There is plenty of character acting animation that JJK doesn't have, and JJK itself had plenty of CG backgrounds that looked outright awful that took away from the 2D animation, something which Chainsaw Man fixes.
Claiming that CSM is "worse animated" just because it uses CG models for characters is just being plain ignorant.
That's good to hear. I've only watched the first episode so far and the animation during the zombie fight felt so weird and jarring. It honestly made me wonder what all the hype for the show was about. This is coming from someone who doesn't mind 3D animation in anime at all.
I'm surprised he didn't talked more about the cg that people are complaining about and more on the cg in general. I've got absolutely nothing against it, but it did felt really awkward in that zombie fight. Especially the movement. I haven't watched the other episodes (and was in no hurry to watch them after that), but I'll definitely watch them soon then.
Especially considering how poorly animators are paid in Japan, would you really want them to animate all of that machinery and complex angles completely by hand? As an animator myself who animates puppet in harmony and still struggles with complicated designs without the aid of models….yeah nah
then... pay them better?
@@razumikhim honestly even if they were paid decently I still wouldn’t make them animate things that complicated by hand
@@pukkandan ok you go animate a camera panning shot with a fully detailed mecha by hand while it’s fighting a multi headed monster without a single bit of CGI and tell me how it goes
the real problem though is that they arent getting worked any less hard with CGI, theyre just being tasked with more.
So it doesnt really solve anything.
@@also4thebirds it just proves that having less CGI would be worse for them because they'd have to do even more difficult work for the same low pay
I love the CGI fight scenes, they do cool scene rotations and perspectives.
04:09 "...Its fine most of the time. So fine you dont even notice it, and when you do notice it make a lot of anime look substantially better". I think this is the big disconnect between Jeff and a lot of CGI dislikers, myself included. If you can notice it, its a negative. If you can't notice it, then its CG done right. "Do it yourself" is a great recent example. most people didn't notice the CG, but I could tell, every time it zoomed in on a characters hand, it was a CG model and it was JARRING to see that animation shift. Was it bad CG?, no it wasn't. Did I like it? No, I didn't.
My biggest complaint about CG, especially for characters, is that it seems to drive imprecise or lazy camera work that just hangs on the cg model without any reason to. As a person who draws comics it feels weird to draw a character from an angle that doesn't emphasize their actions and pose, but I see a lot of CG, even from good series, where the direction doesn't feel that precise or intentional.
They should take notes on Spider-Verse, Arcane, Land of the Lustrous, Dorohedoro and Knights of Sidonia in how to do it right.
A lot of modern anime i think suffer from things like this. Like the directors giving the worst shots possible for some reason
Some series do it better than others. I do think rotoscoping(I think that’s what it’s called) where you draw over a real person makes better animation particularly for dancing and poses.
Because 2d animation company lack the practical knowledge of how camera work in real live.
ps. They let the 3d animater control those cameras at will without any real world "limitation" such as dolly track, body held camera rig or camera crane.
@connor bingel from personal experience in my animation class for college, rotoscoping while looking really good is a pain in the ass to do and takes a long time to match the pose whether you're doing it in 2D or 3D. It looks fantastic but I can see why it's hardly used
I had friends who hated Knights of Sidonia because they couldn't "get" the CGI but I freaking loved it. Same with Blame
Such a great show… I loved it
I think with some of that you just can't stand the style so there's no point in trying to get over it. Between knowing about Erin being annoying for the two seasons that were out at the time and the harsh bold lines and bold colors of AoT I refused to continue it beyond two episodes. I'm just never gonna get past how much it hurts my eyes. I don't think it's ugly, it's just...like an assault on the eyes, the way some people can't stand neon colors or really bright intense reds. There's even some elements I've heard of it that I think I *might* like, but it's just never gonna be worth it to me, unless I'm bored in a room with nothing else.
There were other animes I wasn't sure I'd become accustomed to the style...one about leaves I think? That was super distinct, but eventually I was able to adapt and see past it. Same with Air and the weird large eyes and mouth positions.
Well, you're talking a full CG series. Not really the same case as an anime that only uses CG for battle scenes :)
@@frostfang1 really? Bold colors? In AoT? In terms of style it’s one of the least offensive ones out there, and if that’s the only reason you’re refusing to watch it, you’re LITERALLY hurting yourself. It’s one of the best anime ever, period.
Too bad people hate on Polygon Pictures for being a CGI studio.
15:00 Bringing up SAC is actually a really good example because yes, they did something that good in 2002, and then in 2020 they did SAC2045 with the cg naked flipping man scene that looked like some drunk teenager in the newgrounds basement threw together in source filmmaker in 5 minutes.
My only issue with cgi in anime is when it I notice the change in fps for the character. CGI is often animated too smothly compared to the rest of the show. So it often feels out of place for me. You mentioned 3d anime games, but that style is consistent. Chainsaw mans 3d animation is good. But its too smooth, which feels out of place compared to when it was done in 2d animation.
When both 2D and 3D are smooth, it’s when it gets good. We will get there someday.
@@onepresence9460 yes the motions of characters. in my head it's always like too flowy? Like the characters arent quite human
The Lupin III: the First is probably the single best example of CGI characters that look and feel completely natural, it's certainly the best I've ever seen. They're all extremely detailed and obviously CG, and yet because the animators took great care to make the movements and facial expressions deliberately over-exaggerated, they still feel like the same cartoony characters from the original. I am a bit disappointed that it wasn't mentioned at all in the video (but being snubbed is nothing new for the series, no matter how great it gets), but I would really love to see some kind of follow up about just how good the movie is, specifically as an example of not just how to do CGI right, but how to transition an established 2D animated series over to 3D and have it still feel natural.
This right here ^^^
oh yeah, i have yet to watch that
Jeff is making a very simple Mistake here, hes overlooking an awfully-simple fat: IF Millions SAY there is a Problem with how something looks, there IS a Problem.
@@loturzelrestaurant people said that with jews and erm..
@@loturzelrestaurant there is also the issue that millions might not be saying it. Thousands might just be saying it VERY LOUDLY.
I always find 3D much easier to handle when it's in a full 3D production instead of going back and forth, but you are absolutely correct that the vast majority of the time it at least looks absolutely fine, and very frequently it looks much better than if the same scenes were animated in 2D. Arcane is of course the best possible example of how good it can get, there's no denying it is breathtaking. Although just looking at the Chainsaw Man clips I'm seeing in the video, and knowing how much this anime has been hyped up, I can understand some people being a little disapointed. It's still quite good, but there are moments it's not looking quite as good as I would expect. (This is just based on the clips in the video, I don't like that much gore so I'm not watching it myself)
The Chainsaw Man clips definitely have twitchy, jank animation
There was no way any anime could have lived up to the hype Chainsaw Man was getting, so yeah I can also understand why some people were disappointed. Despite that though, I have no issue with its use of CGI. Admittedly I haven't seen very many anime, but out of the ones I have seen that make use of CGI Chainsaw Man uses it the best.
@@nathanlevesque7812 how much of that is down to compression for the TH-cam format though? Streaming it on Crunchyroll, I’m not seeing the jank
Yeah I 1000% agree with your point. I think that childish-ness of a large part of the community might make it seem that the people complaining *HATE* cgi, but one of my favorite shows of all time is Houseki no Kuni (Land of the Lustrous) and that show has a very distinct 3d art style (CGI). Im sure it was jarring at first when I watched it but because it is consistent and helps to augment the storytelling (the characters are supposed to have very specific textures that are conveyed well in 3d) I wouldnt want it any other way now. That show to me was a triumph of innovative animation among other things. I do think chainsaw man look amazing and I haven't been nearly as bothered watching it since the first ep where the CGI really got called out, so the attacks on it are definitely overblown. But im also watching Bleach this season and its just.... so gorgeous. The effects in bleach are like a wet dream.
i mean arcane uses 2D backgrounds and objects evrey once in a while but the people are 3d
as somebody who plans on working in animation, this was a really fascinating and informative video. it's given me a lot of anime to look at for reference so thank you! even western feature-length movies praised for 2d animation have 3d to thank for certain parts (prince of egypt and iron giant come to mind, and like a lot of anime you pointed out, they've been made pretty early in the development of 3d). i myself was "anti-3d" growing up watching anime but when you really look at the shows that come out using it, it really is a matter of execution rather than any inadequacies with the technology today. it unlocks so much potential for animation as a medium and at this point im rambling. point is, with 3d animation the way it is today, whos to say we cant have steel ball run soon after stone ocean?
Exactly. It’s all about the execution. 3D can be just as good as 2D if you do it right.
I think the problem people seem to have with certain CGI is about the integration of the CGI animation in the 2D environment. There is a disturbing steep between the fluidity (image per frame) of the 2D and CGI that is way much too fluid compared to traditional 2D.
ex: when denji is breathing from a medium pov distance, in 2D, the image is not really moving. But in 3D, they make the animation with a lot of details in the movement to be realistic. And THAT is absolutely not natural according to me in the final product. It's obvious when you look at the difference between 2D and 3D playing musical instruments in anime. 2D is more "frozen" so 3D needs to reproduce it to be better integrated in 2D show (if it replaces a character only. because it's ok when it's special effects like in demon slayer)
A way to solve the problem would be to voluntarily make the movement animation a bit less fluid to get closer to the 2D pace. And I do have observed that technique applied in some shows. I was totally ok to me and I hope the Japanese 3D animators will realize that very soon.
I think they will realize that very soon 👍
The Genshin Ad is actually kind of fitting when you consider the animated shorts made for Mihoyos older game, Honkai Impact. They just continuously get better and better with every new one and are honestly peak CGI Anime. Anyone reading this right now do yourself a favor and check out one of the new ones such as "Everlasting Flames" or "Because of you".
Honestly the first time they contacted me to do an ad for Honkai is the fastest I’ve ever said yes to a mobile game company. I just saw it and was like “holy fuck, the people must know”
My first interaction with honkai was one of the shorts (lament of the fallen) and I straight up thought it was an anime series, no joke I didn’t even realise it was cgi at the time cause of how fluid and good it was (since that was a time where cgi anime only had jank). Then when I played the game (after getting into Genshin) I straight up fell in love cause like wtf, this is so fucking good. As an anime lover and an entertainment design student (wanting to work in video games and animation) I had my brains blown to pieces, highly recommend checking out the animated shorts if you haven’t played honkai at all or even hate gacha cause these deserve that much praise
Same but with the Seele one
All the fully animated cutscenes in genshin are just fantastic, everything is insanely smooth, dynamic, character animations are expressive as all hell, the effects are gorgeous and even the voice acting improves, it's so good
@@fatmax2spew140 Hell, the quality of the recent cinematics/cutscenes of the just released 3.2 Archon (main story) is already if not at-level with honkai's but at least the cusp of it.
The CGI in this show is “noticeable” for a few seconds or “a bit jank” for a few seconds at worst. If you’re _observant_ enough to see those flaws you should be observant enough to see what the show does really well, and it’s a lot. Great adaptation so far 👍
I still can't see it. These are the same people who can lecture for half an hour at a stretch about True Black on a TV.
@@angharad256 its how it's shaded and framerate issues. It looks off
the unfair thing about good CGI is that it's harder to spot the better it gets, so people will not appreciate most of the great work but immediately spot the bad
@@sparklesparklesparkle6318 i don't think its right to act like the visuals of episode one were *objectively* bad. Knowing that something is CG doesn't make it necessarily BAD CG. You can have a personal preference against CG but imma be real with you I fucking loved it the entire way through.
@@ExeErdna the framerate inconsistencies tend to be the things that make me the most annoyed since it makes the CG element more distracting than jt otherwise would be when that issue is present
Violent evergarden and land of the lustrous are my top picks for well done 2D-3D marriage
Violet Evergarden is downright gorgeous. I can't think of a single moment in that show that didn't look anything less than amazing; sometimes it did look blurry to me, but that was entirely because of me tearing up (I can't think of a story that managed to make me cry more than Violet Evergarden did).
A bit disappointed that SANZIGEN's Black Rock Shooter wasn't mentioned not even once despite having jaw-dropping CGI action shots and character rendering all the way back in 2012.
Steamboy is a treat to look at, had no idea people hated on it.
I loved Steamboy. I didn’t know it was hated.
the amount of budget that Chainsaw Man got is insane for them to keep this quality up and give us brand new endings EVERY EPISODE.
They should've just do one ending and save the budget for something that matters.
Id rather the same ending and less cgi
@@xnexgax2477 Spoiler alert, They would've done the same amount of CGI regardless :) if you paid attention to the actual video you would've learned that the use of CGI goes far beyond simply saving time and budget in this day and age. It is literally the modern advancement into animes cinematography, and you bet your bum they aren't skipping out on it when it conveys the motion of a scene perfectly.
@@luan931 So basically you're saying, they should've dropped all of their professional choices and creative vision, just to appeal to you and your personal interests? Yeah right. Be thankful for what you have.
@@hangry3102 Great. Cant wait for it to not look like ass 99% of the time
I’m glad you mentioned Daisuke and the Guilty gear team. The 3d models in XRD and strive are really good.
Came here to say this, the Guilty Gear team has made 3D look and play like 2D and it's fantastic.
IIRC they talked about how they were able to achieve that 3D imitating 2D quality so well at GDC, for example frame limiting to mirror hand drawn frame rates and adding deformations to mimic 2D smearing.
Shout-out to _Bocchi the Rock!!,_ whose audition scene demonstrates that even cheap (affectionate) shows can make CGI blend in with the rest of the show if the animators try. Cheap (derogatory) shows are SOL, but that's true whatever animation tech they use.
I really appreciate you bringing this issue to a wider audience, many people have a misconception that cg is cheap bc no effort is put into it when in reality its cheap bc one good cg artist can produce a lot more work than one good 2d artist meaning less money at an hourly rate despite the fact that cg is a harder skill that takes longer to learn.
Yes but the Cgi levels are just boring and any jackass can become a chi artist, while 2d animation is actually art the worst 2d animated movie will be far better then the best 3d animated film
@@wolftitanreading5308 That I call bullshit on, he even shows in the video the worst 2D animation examples in anime, and the best 3d animation beats that by a country mile.
Seriously, if you want bad ( as in mechanically does not do its job ) 2d animation compared to 3d animation being bad ( same as the other, mechanically not doing its job ), then 3D will still beat that by being able to work in a 3D space that can use those maybe not to the right mechanical quality elements in the right fudging ways to get it to work right, and even then 3D has a limit to where it can be fudged before it becomes unusable, but 2D can go even further below that. As in for 3D, you have to put even a bar of quality into it before it will even mechanically work and exist, which is why 3D will never be worse than 2D unless made to look stylistically bad due to either incompetence, ignorance, or a rush in time taken.
@@MinecraftLD10 nah, as I said 2d is far superior the time the hard work and beauty of it compared to bullshit digital 3d that any half ass money with a keyboard can make. Especially animation from the past. 2d animation is quality while 3d is cheap bullshit
@@wolftitanreading5308 I still call bullshit on your statement, have you never seen something like Iron Giant? Iron Giant is literally one of the main characters of the film and he is done in 3D, you can literally tell by how the materials work on him.
@@MinecraftLD10 have you not seen the road to El dorado, spirited away, Aladdin Alice in wonderland, Fantasia, mother fucking who framed Roger rabbit
Honestly, the first genuine Anime that I fell in love with as a kid was Zoids: The Battle Begins + Zoids: Chaotic century, there was something about the awesomeness about the big animal mechs like Liger Zero that made me totally overlook the whole 3D wonky-ness of the early 2000’s. Rll, if it’s used well, blending 2D and 3D together in animation can really make a show shine! It’s this whole idea that’s made me go into 3D animation :D
Yeah, I don't mind it with robots. Looks bad when it's Kaido from One Piece, or Denji.
@@kringhetto It honestly depends also on the design on the robots too. I loved Zoids as a kid, but I've seen plenty of mecha series in the last decade that relied heavily on CG for their mechs. Unfortunately, a lot of those series, realizing they no longer had to keep the design simple to make it easier to draw, ended up overdesigning their mechs with extra features and shapes that just made them unappealing to look at, even when translated back to 2D.
Man, I really wish Zoids would come back. I absolutely love that series, and it's a shame it died with the mediocre Fuzors, and never got another season that I'm purposefully ignoring.
@@TheDapperDragon I don't like "zoids wild" but "zoids wild: zero" Is actually good.
I was wondering why this got me back and it's because they got the old director of the first 2 series back!
@@kringhetto funny im the opposite i like 2d mechs lol
If I'm not wrong, Mappa made an entire in-house CGi department around the time Chainsaw Man was in production. It looks great, and the stellar production in literally every other aspect of the show exemplifies it.
still don't put that frame rate up to stop it looking jerky though...
Fucking thank you. I'm so tired of seeing Twitter users thinking they're clever for saying midsaw man
@@mytimetravellingdog congrats on making a fool of yourself
The video frustrated me. I really don't understand people saying to looks good. It ...doesn't. There is nothing wrong with CGI in anime (UBW, even GITS) but Chainsaw Man has issues. Like pans and translations don't seems to line up and it looks like the models are sliding.
offtopic but what's funny to me is people in these comment sections use similar vocabulary and tones to the ones jeff uses in his videos.
I think it's interesting maybe there's a general coalescing of thoughts and personalities that form this one behavior that each of you can agree on plus relate to... like making video essays! And anime! Also appreciating video essays... and anime...
I think most of the problem people have with the Chainsaw Man 3D use comes from the framerate during the fights, more specifically the frame rate of the characters. Because of it's clean shapes, most people need faster framerates to better solve movement, specially in a world where many people are used to game in 60 fps. It does seems off pace sometimes. I assume that what causes this uncanny feeling is that if you reproduce the same movement, with the same amount of frames, a 3D model falls into an uncanny valley because of how if perfectly goes through all the frames, while the 2D character can enjoy some warping of forms and changes of speeds that our brains solves better. You can see this effect a lot on those artists' posts of animation studies, trying to understand what's the best sequence to do an arm swing or a mouth movement. It's impressive how some small changes dramatically improve the final result, giving a much better fluidity, even if we're still talking about 3-6 fps animation. Of course, more fps directly means more rendered frames, which means more money, so there is no simple answer to that. And the vast sea of people with no will and/or vocabulary to properly portray their complaints doesn't help either.
Let’s be real. The CGI in chainsaw man was weird at first I agree. It isn’t bad tho. It takes a little time to get used to but that doesn’t matter. The fights on episode 2 and 3 are fucking insane. When he says it looks like a movie, without a doubt the truth. This is now one of my top threes. I cannot wait to watch the rest of this adventure play out.
The CGI in Chainsaw Man definitely got better in the next episodes. The CG in Episode 3 looked a lot better than 1.
so how were ep 8 and 9 for you
Agreed it’s weird and noticeable but it’s not bad. Whether you enjoy it is a matter of preference. I for one dislike too much of what makes up chainsaw man to enjoy it. But it is an impressive work.
I wouldn't say that the CG looks bad in chainsaw man and it definitely doesn't ruin the show. I would say that the CG is noticeably distinct from the 2D and therefore breaks my immersion just a little every time I see it. The fact that it is well done CG helps but it doesn't completely negate the problem, minor though it is. The problem is not the quality of the CG, but the contrast between the cg and the standard animation style. The video game character example illustrates my point.
I understand that there's probably no other way it could have been done, so I'm just glad they did as well as they did.
@Tin Watchman
I get that there was only one way they could have pulled chainsaw man off, I bet the whole animal would have looked much worse had they not used any CG.
That said, I can't help that my brain experiences a slight dissonance when I see the character suddenly become Subtly 3D and start moving in a different way. I'm not saying the animators did a bad job, I think the fights look great. It's just an automatic response I get and I can see why it would bother people just a little.
I think it got better by Episode 3.
My big issue with 3D in anime is that anime directors seem to have this bizarre notion that they need to delete/"cut" the frames on the 3D animation to "make it look like 2D", so it often looks out of place and shit: 24 FPS 2D characters moving alongside jerky 12 FPS 3D vehicles. This is especially noticeable in Polygon Pictures' work.
There are ways of implementing frame-skipping well, and there are ways of implementing it poorly. It isn’t a black-and-white dichotomy. There are action sequences in Kill La Kill that you’d never guess are CGI, simply because the frame-skipping is implemented so well and so seamlessly that one simply can’t tell at first or even second glance.
The issue here is that the best CGi is almost (or completely) invisible. If you don't notice it, the studio did their job well
My biggest gripe with Gen: Lock, same issue. They decided to switch between rendering on 1s and 2s (aka, in practice, 24 vs 12 fps), and it just looks jittery and horrible a lot of the time.
Skimping on the framerate for artistic reasons is akin to the stupidity of locking a video game to 30fps and calling it "cinematic". It just looks bad; don't do it
@@Excludos Yeah, they got to think "maybe because I like it, other people might not" janky frames are janky frames. If anything 2D can be droped a bit yet with 3D you have to speed it up. Slow 3D never looks good.
Thats not much of the problem as it is rendering light in the 3d object as well as making movement look great in lower frame rates to make it consistant since that uses smear frames to be even possible and smearing 3d stuff is just not easy
I could go into realms here, but I am going to just say the following. CGI CAN ruin things. But it absolutely doesn't ruin everything it touches, absolutely doesn't ruin every anime it is used in. Its about aesthetics and getting them right, keeping things in balance, and using the right tools at the right time, and Chainsaw Man looks fucking incredible, every damned frame of it. Nuff said I think.
I was waiting for you to talk about Houseki no Kuni for almost the whole damn video !
I actually didnt mind the cgi. It wasnt bad at all and the story( even in just the 1st ep) is really good.
I enjoyed it so much and saw the pain, the sadness, and how denji is becoming better. I didnt even notice it was cgi at first and i still loved it
I preferred it on ep 3 with the bat devil, I was kinda sad because I expected them to use a different style of animation on specific devils like the darkness but looking back it's pretty good
@@airplanes_aren.t_real the darkness devil hasn't been animated yet though, and it probably won't be until next season iirc
So who knows? Maybe they'll do it in a completely new and amazing wa
@@morgoth_bauglir hopefully, I've seen a lot of anime do this to differentiate between characters especially in horror, an example is made in abyss where they used a different shading style and frame rate for the monsters
The CGI advancements MAPPA has made with chainsaw man makes me so much more hyped for IF they do a dorohedoro season 2, because i can imagine so many scenes later in the manga that could be elevated so highly by MAPPA's style.
But they can do great fight scenes without noticeable cgi, look at JJK
@@portlandshomlessproblem1728 JJK had plenty of fights that used full 3D backgrounds and they looked absolutely horrendous.
idk wtf is MAPPA's style I don't get this idea people have
@@lebyandsmartiel318 its cool and looks nice :)
@@carloscauan7967 It's kinda sad seeing people out here in the wild that actually have such shitty takes. Half the time I'm not sure if its bait or not.
As said in the beginning of the video "Do you have eyes?"
Cgi is good if it's done right but 2d will always be better
I kinda agree and disagree at the same time, because i personally enjoyed Arcane and Spider-Verse a lot more than bunch of 2D stuff imo (Animation quality wise). However, there are exceptions of course like Akira, Ghost in the Shell, some 2D Disney movies and all Studio Ghibli movies.
I'm not a fan of it but it does good when the transitions are good which most of the time aren't and I feel like that's what kills it for most people. Few anime's have that great transitions like Demonslayer does it beautifully to the point where I almost didn't notice.
Something I've found I love about Chainsaw Man's CGI is how you see the full motion of everything. Even the best looking 2D anime often show moments, not entire actions. A 2D Denji would lunge forward then cut to an extended still with minimal motion of the aftereffects of the hit. Very good, obviously, it's a classic anime action style, but there's an appealing grittiness to see an uninterrupted shot of him reeling back and tearing clean through a zombie.
Cutaways are so goddamn annoying, I cannot agree more. There's so much happening in a single fight scene in some hand-drawn fights that they cut very minor pieces of movement or locomotion in-between to budget more or less time to a specific scene, especially in fights. It's annoying whenever there's a cut in the movement at the last second right before an impact. They decide to just put the perspective behind the enemy's back; show a sword jammed straight through their body instead of the entire motion of the character charging forward and drilling the blade into their chest.
Most of the zombie devil fight isn't even cgi
You get to see drag and weight of motion that unless you dump literal millions of dollars 2d animation cannot compete.
One of the more recent examples of the sub vs dub argument getting put to rest is kaguya sama. Having a character like the narrator having a different personality altogether depending on which one you watch, gives each their own charm, and also makes it so that people who may only watch sub, or dub, have a reason to watch the other.
I completely agree with this. As another commenter mentioned, I also watch anime with a friend who is dyslexic and struggles to read subtitles, so we watch anything together dubbed. 5 or 10 years ago I would struggle through watching anime with an dub-only friend, but now on top of the general improvements of the dubs I can't wait to watch kaguya sama in english with him after originally watching it subbed.
Honestly with kaguya sama its worth watching both sub and dub. The narrator has different and both wildly entertaining personalities
I really appreciate this review. CGI can be a beautiful tool in the animation arsenal. And just like any tool, it can be used with skill or like a crayon in the hands of a toddler… going up a nose.
I appreciate this too. I love 2D don’t get me wrong, but 3D is also really good. Too bad it gets lots of hate.
wait till they find out how manga authors make backgrounds
It was really funny to see people complain about the cgi zombie devil fight in CSM ep 1 just for MAPPA to come out and show that it literally wasnt cgi
Yeah fr. The only thing that "bothers" me was the transformation scene with the camera moving from bottom to top. I think it looked a bit dull. But that's literally only 5 seconds of 20 min godlike animation.
I watched it on a large 4k tv the second time around, and it really isn't cgi for most of the fight, which astonished me. Makes all the angry typing about it online so much funnier.
That fight had cgi, it just wasn't cgi the whole time.
@@sagesmukler9383 most of the time. There's a few shots where he's standing around where it's obvious, but anytime there's any action going on, it's hand drawn.
@@Revealingstorm. yeah, it definitely stuck out like a sore thumb. Every episode since though has been chef's kiss with the blending.
My biggest fear, as well as the fear of many others, I suppose, is that anime is already an industry that prioritizes efficiency and quantity over quality. Now imagine if the use of CGI becomes more accepted by the fans; that most likely will translate into more anime, but as we already well know, more anime airing each season does not equals better quality. Soon after, every season we will be invaded by a new wave of mediocre stories with mediocre adaptations, each one bigger than the last one, similar to what happened with movies and videogames.
I mean, doesn't the anime community also prefer quantity over quality?
How many times have you heard fans wanting another season of an anime that has not been released yet?
But tbf, western anime fans don't really affect anime studios (to an extent).
You have a good point actually
Nope, you are wrong man... that is some stand out badly used CG. Bad blending, seemingly miss-matched frame rate, and just a completely different look.
And I have no problem with adding 3D animation. Actually love how much it has added to recent shows... but it is distractingly off for this one. It isn't that the CG looks bad, or that it isn't quality... it is that it doesn't match; which is distracting.
"My brain doesn't let me enjoy what I'm seeing because it focuses on how much it is bad." is perhaps the most pretentious, smarmy, stick-up-your-own-ass-y sentence ever written in any language.
While you were discussing how well CG can convey motion, speed, gravity, and weight re: cars and racing, my immediate thought was "oh man, I watched a flying anime that had the MOST realistic flying I've EVER seen, as an aviator myself. I wish I remembered what it was called!" so when you brought up Magnificent Kotobuki specifically to highlight its incredible dogfights, I practically stood up and cheered! Not just the animation, but the sound design and everything is perfect, you can practically FEEL the Gs they're pulling with their maneuvers. Thank you for highlighting it and reminding me to pick that back up!!
This is so wholesome i love it
Damn this was genuinely eye opening tbh I was a cgi hater but this genuinely made me rethink my view on it
I'm a 2D and 3D animator and i totally understand where people are coming from! The CGI during the fight scene was very stiff, and when I watched it, I didn't feel the power or energy behind the movement, it wasn't believable to me, and it felt quite out of place. The model however looks great! The way his body and head was modeled and painted looked just as good as the 2d version. To be honest though I actually felt a wave of disappointment when I first watched the CGI segments, i genuinely thought something like " i hope they do better with the CGI before the major fights in the series, otherwise ill probably just read the manga". Everything else animation wise is so so so so stunning and beautiful, and I can't wait to get more of it!!
There are only 2 examples of CGI in anime I've seen. One of them was Land of the Lustrous and that was amazing! The fights, the textures for the crystal in their hair, just everything flowed so well together.
The second one being JOJO's bizzare adventures, specifically the CGI intros. Those are LITERALLY SO GOOD!!! I have absolutely no complaints about that either.
Mixing 2D and 3D can look amazing if used right, like in Arcane, how the characters are in 3D, while effects like fire, electricity etc. are 2d animated, and backgrounds are painted! Or how many mainly 2D animated shows use 3d environments for dynamic camera movements that fit seamlessly with the rest!
I've never wrote a really long comment before so sorry if my thoughts are jumbled but i hope i get my point across :D
ALSO Breath Of The Wild Has great 3D animation in an anime style, forgot to mention
Mappa: **delivers some of the most god tier animation in the history of ever**
The anime community: "yeah that's kinda mid"
bruh
"Are we out of touch? No, it's almost the entirety of the consumer base that's wrong."
Yeah its kinda mid BECAUSE OF FUCKING 10 SECONDS OF DENJI CGI MODEL
@@RanDOmNumBErs108 You'd be surprised how often that's actually true. Consumers, by default, often want what they are already used to and openly criticize anything that deviates from that, until there are enough people who do like the change to outnumber the number of people who don't.
@@Shaiyo5 I mean, though, why should one like change for change's sake? I do not hate CGI in general, though all in all I still enjoy 2D animation more. But that's comparing to the very best CGI stuff that's been made, things like Arcane and Into The Spider-Verse. The Chainsaw Man CGI doesn't even come close to that. It's not unwatchable but it's definitely NOT as high quality in CGI terms as the rest of the animation is by the standards of 2D. It's ok whereas the rest of the show is stellar.
@@HaganeNoGijutsushi Then you missed the entire point of this video. Quality doesn't matter as much as implementation. That's why he was comparing the two to even begin with. Because without proper directorial implementation Arcane and spider-verse would look like dogshit that the artists couldn't carry.
The problem with CGI is that it is very hard to get right and very easy to get wrong. One of the best examples is probably the Gundam series and you can see it grow and evolve over time from the days of the first appearance of the Freedom. I felt there were huge improvements in Try Fighters and the recent Mercury. I felt God Eater did an okay job with their CGI too. This is what you can do when you CGI it right. However, most of the time, you end up with CGI wrong like in Knights of Sidonia or the more infamous Berserk.
The fact of the matter is that great quality 2d will more often than not look better than great quality 3d. 3d can be jarring when not implemented well and most studios don't get this right, background characters popout too much with their robotic walks (and low frame animation) and bland 3d designs for example.
I don't know how to articulate this in a sophisticated way, but all I can say is that CG does in fact look ugly. The CG in chainsaw man is ugly. I think it's the uncanny valley effect of seeing 2D characters suddenly look and animate in 3D, because I don't have a problem with videogame visuals, even though they're mostly 100% 3D. I can't think of a single anime where I saw the 3D switch and did not find it jarring. It's so bad I sometimes don't even feel like continuing with the anime. Maybe it's something that doesn't effect everyone the same way?
My fear comes mostly from the slow encroaching of a prospective media death due to the fact that cgi really is less expensive- and in a world that has largely sold itself off to the concept of cash, what is cheap becomes what is made. Of course, this is very doomsday, intellectually I know anime as a medium survives on its artistic merit, but there will always be a part of me that feels a bit uncomfortable by anime that perhaps relies too heavily on cgi. There'll always be good reasons to use it, I'm not so much against it as wary of it, but I'm hoping that it doesn't turn into a disney thing. They booted traditional 2d animation because they didn't think it was worth it, and anime is sort of the last place I can see gorgeous frame by frame animation anywhere at all (that isn't like, 30 seconds of a western animated show's episode. Owl House looks so good when it happens though)
I remember my first reaction to noticing the chainsaw man was a 3d model in that fight in episode 1, it was "oh yeah, they're definitely not redrawing that head, good on them", and then it was "damn that was an awesome fight"
I had the same reaction too 😅
22:13 thats right everyone. The Promised Neverland had the best and only season of anime period. Hopefully season 2 when they cover it covers all of Goldy Pond. The arc every TPN wants to see
18:12 "I could make an entire video about the spaceships in cowboy beebop and all their fiddely little panels..." , PLEASE make this video! :D