This is a pretty ingenious move for Truly Ergonomic. Specifically requesting Thomas not to swear can help create an illusion that it’s better than any other ergo board.
We thank Thomas for taking the time to review our keyboard, we enjoy his reviews, we even enjoy his connotations, we liked he used the right hand for Y and H correctly - even if for a few seconds, and we know that if he take 2-3 weeks he could have gotten accustomed to the better layout of the Cleave keyboard. We will provide future keyboards for future reviews.
@Truly Ergonomic --- One thing I noticed he didn't mention, but seemed very obvious to me, I would like to ask if I'm correct about. It looks to me like the shift key, the enter key, the space bars, and perhaps also the arrow keys and the similar directional grouping on the left side, we're all intended to make use of the versatility of the human thumb. This seems to me much more intelligent than having to use the pinky finger for the shift key and Enter key, or necessarily completely reposition your hand in order to use the arrow keys.
@@DonaldKronos the ironic thing is that it's right thumb I have problems with, I usually use my right index to hit the spacebar, so there's that. I guess this layout would let me do the same with enter, and the other index could hit shift instead of the pinky? I'll give Truly this much, it's not completely bonkers at least.
actually that enter for right thumb is best idea ever. For people who programming or writting a lot is huge timesaver and avoid lot of typos because wrong return of right hand to desired position.
Ergo weirdo here: my Ergodox EZ has the left thumb cluster as Space - Backspace - Home/End, and the right cluster as Page Up/Page Down, Delete, Enter. Those eight keys you use every single minute of using a keyboard? Yup. Right there without thinking about it.
Actually a very good idea overall. Very good set of keys for developers. Having dedicated shift-tab and putting delete and backspace next to eachother is great. Also actual great switches on something ergo and fairly minimalistic ergo design.
Switched from a Microsoft Sculpt to this keyboard about 8 months ago. I am a programmer and this checks all the boxes for me. Wired, backlit, split ergo, mechanical, programmable keys. GREAT keyboard.
It's because swearing at the keyboard got banned, as it is a commercial request for such. But if he could swear, I bet my nickels it would have a WANING
I actually developed painful carpal tunnel syndrome on a regular keyboard at work many years ago. It was a desk job with lots of typing. I then got the Microsoft ergonomic keyboard and it really helped solve the issue. I now have the bit more sleek looking MS Surface version and use it in a Mac. It works great even with gaming
God, that moment right at 10:34 just screams, "We here in the gun community desperately need to bring Chyros in to the fold and have him tear apart the thousands of different, good, bad, incredible, terrible, and down right HIDEOUS triggers that exist."
@@Chyrosran22 If you ever move or relocate or just simply decide to take a skip across to see how your fingers feel; I'd make sure you swear your arse off with some of the worst, most jarring, most disappointing triggers imaginable. God it'd be amazing.
@@somecoder3054 he would probably have nothing but disdain for any articulated striker-fired trigger, oh my God. First thing I would want him to review would be a mosin nagant's 13 lb trigger.
I really like that you have a fast, yet human typing speed. None of this 120 wpm nonsense. I peaked at 99 wpm, but average more like 60-80 because I can’t be arsed to get faster.
I am a home-row touch-typist, and EVERY standard keyboard is now an ergonomic keyboard to me, after re-training my left hand to type all the rows sloping inward instead of outward. For example- my left index finger now types row TFC instead of RFV, middle finger now types RDX and so on, which mirrors the right hand rows' usual UJM, IKcomma, OLperiod, etc. The strokes are much more simple now, mostly forward and backward motions (as the right hand has always done) with fewer side strokes. So right and left have a balance I've never felt before.
Yes! Exactly! I cannot fathom why the orthodox touch-typing pattern has the left hand finger pattern sloping outward from bottom to top. This seems so obviously to work against the natural motion of the fingers and angle of the hands. I once tried to train my hands to touch type by laser cutting a "stencil" to put over the keyboard to channel each of my fingers to "stay in their lanes". The left hand channels were so impossible to deal with I felt confident in concluding that this was not a system I ever wanted to adopt.
So you now enter both E and S with your left ring finger? That's some double whammy... While I applaud your approach to re-assigning the keys to different fingers, I think you need to look beyond QWERTY to make it work in a sensible way.
I’m pretty sure the ergo crowd actually prefers vertical stagger if keys can’t be placed in a dished board like a Kinesis or Dactyl, since your fingers don’t all line up flat. It’s diagonal stagger that gets criticized, since it forces you to twist your wrists awkwardly if you’re a touch typist. Doesn’t make a big difference for hunt-and-peck typists, though.
I'm already using right thumb on numpad enter, because mouse. That feels very satisfying. I imagine this one is similar. Non-butchered F keys? Great. Backtab could see a lot of use in some proprietary software (like banking). Ctrl "in place of Caps" actually predates modern layout. I think Emacs people love it. Overall quite interesting keyboard.
Speaking of ortho boards, I recently swapped from a fairly decent rubber dome board (NMB something or other) to a DIY ortholinear board with proper tactile switches, idk how but after maybe a day or two I figured out that I type faster on it than I ever did on a staggered layout... On the old board I averaged a pretty consistent 45-50 wpm with a lot of mistakes from hitting keys off center or missing entirely (this despite me writing stories in my spare time), on the ortho board I'm pretty consistently hitting 65 to just about 70 wpm with lucky bursts of speed up into the low 90s... Weirded the heck out of me, but it was a welcome surprise, and now I feel inclined to make more ortho boards or build a diy laptop with one in it.
What I've heard re: ortholinear is that it's for particular RSI. If you're making an ergo keyboard having an Ortho layout like this doesn't make it especially hard to pick up as you found but will be good for those people that do need it. In a niche like that I'd imagine hitting as many RSI as you can is beneficial to making sure you sell enough units.
ZEAL WANING: I don't really care either way in ortholinear vs. standard staggered layouts - I use both. The real benefit for me in the ergo world was switching to Colemak. It made real world difference in relieving my RSI, which was getting very severe in my left hand. Switched to Colemak almost 10 years ago, and the RSI is gone. END ZEAL WANING
I love ergonomic keyboards, but there’s no sense trying to hustle them onto people who aren’t drawn to them. You shouldn’t even consider switching to them unless typing on standard keyboards is causing you problems that less drastic changes fail to alleviate. If you ARE interested in ergonomic boards, I recommend you start with something comparatively inexpensive like the Planck from Drop/OLKB, or Keebio’s Nyquist/Levinson or (my own favorite) the Iris. You can get up and running with those for as little as $120-150.
I only use a normal keyboard but my hands are already in ergonomic position because I type with 7 fingers (pinky is only for ctrl & shift, and use ring for pinky position.) so I don't really find any ergonomic benefits from truly ergo keyboards. It really depends on person by person, in my opinion.
hey thomas , ever thought of reviewing the unicomp pc122 .(the unicomp battlecruiser) . there arent many reviews that compare it to any other ibm keyboards . anyways , happy new year
In my experience ortholinear is just infinitely more convinient compared to the staggered designs. I also prefer splitting the letters and have the numpad on the middle, with this layout I can type 8-10 hours without any issues while with the standard staggered layout I have pain in my wrists and fingers after 1-2 hours. Plus an ortho layout is just way more efficent, an ANSI 60% board has around 60-65 keys (not sure exactly, 61 comes to mind) while my 60% ortho has 75. What I would suggest is an ortho board with a programmable layout and a keycap set with a uniform height (for example, DSA). With that you can experiment with the layouts (I put the enter key to the bottom row on the left so I can hit it with my palm/base of my pinky, best decision ever). You don't need any fancy split and tented boards or exotic layouts like this one, those have a steep learning curve and require a lot of dedication. Meanwhile you can get used to a generic ortho board in 1-2 hours.
1:02 There's something about the way this company presents itself which I find uniquely unsettling, which is why I've never bought their products. I'm hoping to hear you touch upon this in your review. 13:40 guess not
Looks like a nice board for programming. That "backup" ctrl key is the original place to put it, which you should know because you own a dozen ibm boards.
It dated so far back? I mapped my keyboard to switch the two because it looks much more reasonable, but always thought it started with Happy Hacking Keyboard (that's where I saw it at least). It feels so good I don't want to go back
@@SuperSohaizai The source of some unix/linux weirdness is because terminal emulators and basic programs still use key bindings for the dec vt terminals. We just don't have the same layout as the vt100 on modern boards.
As someone who wasted the first lockdown learning to touch type by switching fully over to DVORAK (forcing myself to touch type as I couldn't find the keys any other way). Having now switched back to QWERTY (I forgot how I used to type so just picked up touch typing on it), I can say that it really doesn't make it feel more comfortable other than on the right pinkie. This just makes ergo keyboards seem like a huge waste of time to learn. P.s: Love the intro lmao.
Dvorak is, indeed, a waste of time, but I won't push better layouts because it doesn't really help unless there's a specific reason you're switching. I feel like ergo keyboards can also be a waste of time unless you have an RSI, can prevent an RSI, or are just really into it. I love ergo keebs but the amount of people in the community who try to push a giant learning curve on others without reason is crazy
I like how it has mostly normally sized keycaps, unlike the X-Bows Knight. 2:54 Oh, no. Don't you dare reach your left index finger over there. You savage! 3:55 YAY! It's like a new year resolution!
I’d have to actually try it, but this thing looks amazing for coding. -that little page up/down block thing on the left -the tab in and out -the backspace and delete -the switches … few other things.. Seems like it would be really cool to have those features in the layout they chose. I would just switch the spaces and the enter/shift. Again it might be awful, but in theory it looks like coding would be fun on it.
Ergodox/Redox has all advantages (excluding optoelectric switches) and is programmable (via QMK). I use redox keyboard for programming with box whites and it works perfectly. It even places () {} [] under convenient keys under a layer.
I've never used a full ortholinear keyboard, apart from the cursor and numpad keys on a regular full keyboard. I bet if someone produced a stand alone staggered layout numpad, you'd be swearing at that! Not having to move your fingers as much diagonally when moving up or down a row does seem to make more sense though. It's a pity nobody seems to have conducted a twins study to find out which is better. They could do the same for other keyboard layouts too, to put the issue to rest. I like the sound of those switches. If you had to rate them on a scale of ten for sound and feel, where your beloved SKCM blues were ten for both, where would these rate? Happy New Year.
@Chryosran22 --- I'm curious. Did you try using your thumbs for the shift and enter keys, and the space bars? I haven't had a chance to try that keyboard and I've never seen it before, but it does look to me like that would be much easier than having to use your pinky fingers for those keys like on a regular keyboard. Especially if using a touch typing method or something similar, which it seems to me you did mention you sort of avoid, but which many people do make use of.
disclaimer: not into ergo or ortho. the reason ortho *can* be more ergonomic, is because it lets you use columnar stagger instead of row stagger (so technically that ends up not being technically ortho, but thats what this keyboard is). the idea being that columnar stagger more naturally suits the fact that your fingers have different lengths. idk how much that *helps*, but thats the idea. i think. theres probably other stuff too tho like i said, not super into ergo
I think one of the main reasons why I subscribe to you is because of the entertaining way that you swear about things.. I think, I could get used to the shift and in Enter key being down next to my thumbs.. Maybe..
tbh after about 3 months now using a split ergo keyboard i gotta say ortho is nice as hell, not because its more ergonomic or anything but its easier for me to memorize the distance between each key type without looking than on a normal keyboard
"...But things like jumping, which is of course _the control button_ " I've never ever played a game where jump was control, and even if I did I'd do a backflip with how awkward it is to access before remapping it to spacebar; you know, the key your idle thumb can press instead of twisting the pinkie into itself while trying to keep the other fingers on wasd for mobility? I tried doing that just now and my ring finger got shitty with me haha. I get that everyone gets comfortable with defaults on what they prefer playing/grew up playing, so not trying to shame or anything. I just couldn't help feeling that your criticism was a, uh...heh, it was a bit of a _stretch_ lolololol Despite preferring a "unfuckedwith" layout, I'm thankful for you electing to review this. I appreciate how fair you were because this thing looks pretty incredible with the layout and choice to use what looks like standard sized keycaps. Granted, you'd be getting a LOT of the longer keycaps but wacky boards like this are so rare with having that option to replace the stock ones. Would you be willing to verify if that's actually possible given sizing and stabalizer spacing?
People that know they need ergonomics know why a lot of the stuff is there. We know it's not for everybody... Or at least the sensible among us do. Like I have a dactyl manuform, but I encourage people not to switch away from standard if they don't need to
Wait, who the heck jumps with Control? Spacebar man, spacebar. I have an old keyboard (bought at Walmart a lifetime ago) that has dedicated copy/cut/paste buttons on it. I loved that keyboard because of that, and kept using it long past the point of it's retirement (it was a pretty "meh" keyboard other than those buttons).
I have no idea how I would even be able to type without looking without the keyboard stagger. The feel of the edge of the key gives so much information that it's pretty much entirely how I tell where my fingers are on the keyboard. Then again, I a.) don't touch type, and b.) have absolute dogwater typing accuracy, so I am doing a lot of things wrong
When typing many hours every day with moderate to high speed (90 - 125 wpm) for months (or years) the possibility of feeling strain and discomfort using staggered layouts and QWERTY/QWERTZ is high; I'd have never believed a few years back that switching to a split ergo/ortho and Colemak-DH would make such a difference, already after a few months. I agree, it's probably niche and not necessary for the normal office user in order to avoid RSI. If speed and volume of typing is a factor that matters, then layout changes are not "changes for the sake of change" but a convenience in very much the same way you prefer an (ortholinear) numpad on your keyboard.
I've always been under the impression that you really do *have* to be typing that fast, or faster, to get any real benefit out of ortho. It didn't really speed me up much the one time I tried one, then again, I don't really keep my hands in a consistent position at all, and have no idea how the heck I touch type considering.
@@DFX2KX If you have your own typing style and you're good with that - I agree, it might not give an advantage or make things even worse. On the other had - no one staggered the numpad because staggered is more convenient or becaues it would be consistent to all other keys on the board.
@@ThatManFromGermany The biggest difference between The numpad and the alphakeys is that is that my right arm and wrist are straight when typing on them, so my fingers move straight up and down. The alphakeys are off to the left slightly, so both wrists are at angles. I suspect that's why staggard is still popular. Straight up on my fight index is U, resting is J, and straight back is M. To get my wrists straight enough to type like that on an ortho keyboard, I'd have to have my arms extended out a lot more than I usually do. The only Ortho keyboard I used was an otherwise standard 144 layout, so the qwerty row in particular wasn't comfortable to use. I've never tried a split/tenting ortho, but I wager ortho works a LOT better on that type of keyboard unless the layout is utterly bonkers. I have actually seen staggered numpads built into trackball mise. They where also angled to match controls, and where staggered for similar reasons best I can tell. my G600 MMO mouse has a veeeeery slight stagger to it's thumb button keys, too, and those also function as a numbpad, albiet a niche one.
even still this keyboard, where it varies a bit vertically, seems like it'd be more comfortable as it accommodates a bit for finger length. I do fine on the numpad, enough that I won't get a keyboard that lacks one typically, but I don't enter endless strings of numbers on it either.
I feel like the typical keyboard is pretty ergonomic for me at this point since my hands literally grew around the fact that I've used one almost every single day for 30 years.
Ergonomic keyboards always look like they’re designed by aliens but the fact that he had a number of positive things to say about this board, especially how good the switches, are, goes to show this company is onto something, at least.
Dear Mr Swearworddude, my approach to this topic of ergo keyboards would be using vr motion controllers (with or without a headset). The only thing necessary would be to track every finger individually i would suggest the valve index. What do you think about this? Are there any good approaches with vr you know of? Ive seen nothing good till now except for eye tracking or something which is linked to your visual cortex but works slow. Ps: I dont want a chip in my brain because elon musk shouldnt know what hentais i like.
I’ve used a tented ergo keyboard for years, couldn’t type or write at all without them, and came here just to hear you make fun of them. 😹 The whole point of ergonomics is that every body needs different designs to be comfortable. So for some people some “ergonomic” keyboards are going to be exactly the wrong thing And no one thing like tenting or pinky use or whatever will be the right one for everybody. Ideally we’d have options and adjustability or not as needed, but yeah, that runs up the costs. And ideally we’ll get more videos about ergo keyboards as amusing as yours
It took me about 2 weeks to really get used/up to speed to an earlier (first?) revision of the truly ergonomic keyboard about a decade ago which I still use for work and am very happy with. The first week was wildly unproductive due to the slightly shifted key positions. I use a wooting keyboard for gaming, no point in not using different tools for different tasks when it. Sadly I think that this newer Truly ergonomic model looks worse for me than the one I use, there are pretty big differences in the layout when it comes to the modifiers and middle row stuff. Hopefully my old kbd will continue to work for a long time, in worst case I could probably replace the controller if it actually dies at some point.
Thomas has an absolutely legendary use of the English Language, specifically regarding swears. I could hear you swear for hours straight..... maybe make a Vinyl full of swears? Id buy.
When a company has a strict sets of review rules that means the product is bad thus require marketing. I've seen Thomas reviewed Mistel board and it came much better that I still consider buying it when I have some budget to spend on despite that video is more like negative than positive.
The reason why you don't like ergo boards is related to why you don't like alternate layouts or home row typing-because you need to try all of them together. Home row typing with QWERTY is awful, ergo boards are awful without home row typing, and dvorak makes no sense without home row typing. All of them together, however, makes for a delightfully comfortable experience where you hardly have to move your fingers at all.
I have two CLEAVE keyboards and on two independent machines they have very annoying USB compatibility problems. While typing itself is very nice I have to unplug and re-plug the CLEAVE on every Linux boot. Originally I bought it because I used the predecessor (TECK) - that worked without any problems.. Also the predecessor was more flexible in terms of reprogramming the key functions. Unless they change something on the hardware/firmware to fix the problems (the 'latest' firmware version on their website does not fix it) I personally would not recommend this keyboard. In general the build-quality is nice .. but what all does that help if you cannot boot normally with it?!
When you were describing the controls that you were having trouble with in games, I couldn't help but wonder what games you play. What is your main rotation for gaming?
I play a lot of games so I rotate a lot. At the moment I'm playing Diablo 2 R, Tarkov, Ace Attorney, and Ready or Not, but I play lots of others on the side as well.
Their previous model is less weird in the middle, and after some time I found the layout to be really nice. The CTRL and Shift keys are better placed, ideal if you are using them a lot (not gaming). The Cleave is fine but required more time to adjust.
would love to see you review the dygma raise something. as someone with rsi problems its really great. i use nordic iso layout + the tenting kit and im loving it
It missed the mark for me, because it doesn’t let you use the thumbs enough. CTRL, Alt/opt and windows/command should be accessible from your thumbs in a way that lets you keep your fingers on the home row
I mean, you might not like it, which is fair enough, but it looks like you moved your hands less than you normally do in your typing demos. Which for some specific ergonomic reasons might be a good thing. I think as far as the middle cluster goes, they might have been on to something if they'd changed the shift & enter functions around with the delete & backspace ones and moved those middle bottom keys up a bit. And as you indicated the ctrl and alt keys really need to be physically higher up. Really cool they put some thought into the switches though. Noice!
Those modifiers at the bottom left and bottom right corners look like they'd be best actuated with the side of the hand below the pinky. That's how I'd do it anyways, but having two keys there seems awkward
I ordered a cheap eyoosu board from amazon that has these snapspring switches but of the non-optical variant. Hopefully I like them enough to harvest them and give them a good home on a keyboard kit
I've got a sneaky suspicion that even though this keeb is not the end-all in the ergo community, I give it 2 months for someone to sawzall it in half, wire it back together and post something gratifying on deskthority ;)
Back in the day I had a Microsoft spilt keyboard and quite often nearly broke my index finger when doing an "illegal" H or other key hitting the middle 🤣, where on that thing the three LEDs were doing their led thing, which is nothing because num lock is for accountants.
Say what you will, but this KB (actually the previous version, with almost the same layout) which I have for 9 years made my tendinitis totally go away.
![[UNCUT]“ฅนตื่นธรรม”ปะทะ“หมอปลา-ปู่มหามุนี-อั๋นโอกิ”สะเทือนกระทรวงเวทมนตร์ Iคนดังนั่งเคลียร์I10 ตค.67](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/peMD_SAkwNc/mqdefault.jpg)
This is a pretty ingenious move for Truly Ergonomic. Specifically requesting Thomas not to swear can help create an illusion that it’s better than any other ergo board.
Trust me, if I wanted to swear, I'd do it :p . Ain't nobody who tells me how to speak!
I think they were a bit naive with that request
@@Chyrosran22 ya swear on it? :p
As someone who bought the earlier version, I am surprised they're still managing to stay in business.
If you've seen the unboxing video you'd know he doesnt give a damm
"Ergo people are weird. So anyway, Ctrl is the jump button"
It's the one true path, bro! Ctrl is jump, it's a fact of life! :p
@@Chyrosran22 jump is mouse 3 lunatic
Ctrl was always my jump key for DOS side scrollers like Commander Keen and Duke Nukem
For the last time-- CTRL crouches; Spacebar jumps! 💢
@@nnthayer Exactly! See, old-school gamers get it :D .
We thank Thomas for taking the time to review our keyboard, we enjoy his reviews, we even enjoy his connotations, we liked he used the right hand for Y and H correctly - even if for a few seconds, and we know that if he take 2-3 weeks he could have gotten accustomed to the better layout of the Cleave keyboard.
We will provide future keyboards for future reviews.
@Truly Ergonomic --- One thing I noticed he didn't mention, but seemed very obvious to me, I would like to ask if I'm correct about. It looks to me like the shift key, the enter key, the space bars, and perhaps also the arrow keys and the similar directional grouping on the left side, we're all intended to make use of the versatility of the human thumb. This seems to me much more intelligent than having to use the pinky finger for the shift key and Enter key, or necessarily completely reposition your hand in order to use the arrow keys.
@@DonaldKronos the ironic thing is that it's right thumb I have problems with, I usually use my right index to hit the spacebar, so there's that.
I guess this layout would let me do the same with enter, and the other index could hit shift instead of the pinky? I'll give Truly this much, it's not completely bonkers at least.
@@DFX2KX it’s somewhat close to a vertical-stagger Alice board, so yeah, not really all that bonkers.
He will never like any ergonomic layout thats for sure. But he might still like all the other aspects of your keyboards lol
The sound of those keys, it’s nice
actually that enter for right thumb is best idea ever. For people who programming or writting a lot is huge timesaver and avoid lot of typos because wrong return of right hand to desired position.
Ergo weirdo here: my Ergodox EZ has the left thumb cluster as Space - Backspace - Home/End, and the right cluster as Page Up/Page Down, Delete, Enter. Those eight keys you use every single minute of using a keyboard? Yup. Right there without thinking about it.
@@Kvantum I am also very fond of this layout on my redox keyboard.
Actually a very good idea overall. Very good set of keys for developers. Having dedicated shift-tab and putting delete and backspace next to eachother is great.
Also actual great switches on something ergo and fairly minimalistic ergo design.
"They asked me not to use any swear words."
*_Thomas: proceeds to swear_*
I don't want to come across as petty, but I really don't take well to censorship :p .
TH-cam captions be like:
things like [_][_] piss crap [_] horse [_][_][_][_][_]
@@ej_tech yes
Based
Switched from a Microsoft Sculpt to this keyboard about 8 months ago. I am a programmer and this checks all the boxes for me. Wired, backlit, split ergo, mechanical, programmable keys. GREAT keyboard.
Are you still using this keyboard today? Thoughts?
An ergo keyboard without a waning? Impossible.
Yeah. I was expecting a WANING but somehow it's not there though
It's because swearing at the keyboard got banned, as it is a commercial request for such. But if he could swear, I bet my nickels it would have a WANING
It's because this video is just an ad.
I actually developed painful carpal tunnel syndrome on a regular keyboard at work many years ago. It was a desk job with lots of typing.
I then got the Microsoft ergonomic keyboard and it really helped solve the issue. I now have the bit more sleek looking MS Surface version and use it in a Mac. It works great even with gaming
God, that moment right at 10:34 just screams, "We here in the gun community desperately need to bring Chyros in to the fold and have him tear apart the thousands of different, good, bad, incredible, terrible, and down right HIDEOUS triggers that exist."
Honestly, if I'd been born in Imperial Land, I probably would've had a gun channel instead xD .
@@Chyrosran22 If you ever move or relocate or just simply decide to take a skip across to see how your fingers feel; I'd make sure you swear your arse off with some of the worst, most jarring, most disappointing triggers imaginable. God it'd be amazing.
Pretty sure he'd rate anything double-action only as reading braile through garden gloves.
@@somecoder3054 he would probably have nothing but disdain for any articulated striker-fired trigger, oh my God. First thing I would want him to review would be a mosin nagant's 13 lb trigger.
Not the rifle, the revolver.
I am surprised you had so many forbidden words in your holster. 😂
Plenty more where that came from, mate :p .
@@Chyrosran22 i might teach you some vietnamese swear words if you want to
@@xxmutegodxx Bring it on! Always looking for more swear sentences in more languages! :D
@@Chyrosran22 i need to make a twitter account first
"It supports macros without software. Fuck yeah!" I wasn't prepared for the burst of enthusiasm but it was very nice to hear nonetheless.
I really like that you have a fast, yet human typing speed. None of this 120 wpm nonsense. I peaked at 99 wpm, but average more like 60-80 because I can’t be arsed to get faster.
I am a home-row touch-typist, and EVERY standard keyboard is now an ergonomic keyboard to me, after re-training my left hand to type all the rows sloping inward instead of outward. For example- my left index finger now types row TFC instead of RFV, middle finger now types RDX and so on, which mirrors the right hand rows' usual UJM, IKcomma, OLperiod, etc. The strokes are much more simple now, mostly forward and backward motions (as the right hand has always done) with fewer side strokes. So right and left have a balance I've never felt before.
Yes! Exactly! I cannot fathom why the orthodox touch-typing pattern has the left hand finger pattern sloping outward from bottom to top. This seems so obviously to work against the natural motion of the fingers and angle of the hands. I once tried to train my hands to touch type by laser cutting a "stencil" to put over the keyboard to channel each of my fingers to "stay in their lanes". The left hand channels were so impossible to deal with I felt confident in concluding that this was not a system I ever wanted to adopt.
So you now enter both E and S with your left ring finger? That's some double whammy... While I applaud your approach to re-assigning the keys to different fingers, I think you need to look beyond QWERTY to make it work in a sensible way.
Ergonomic keyboards can actually be very useful if you want to split your typing speed in half
Happy New Year from North Germany 🙂
I was feeling sh*tty when I saw your video. Your vibe is an instant mood lifter. Thank you for bringing sun on an otherwise dreary New Years Day !
Speaking of otholinear kb, you should review the dactyl manuform, it has a similar layout to the kenesis advantage. They’re great.
They're also both key well 3D layouts, not ortholinear. Like the Maltron one-handed keyboard he absolutely hated.
I've actually always liked column stagger on a board, it's been quite nice on the few I've tried out
I’m pretty sure the ergo crowd actually prefers vertical stagger if keys can’t be placed in a dished board like a Kinesis or Dactyl, since your fingers don’t all line up flat.
It’s diagonal stagger that gets criticized, since it forces you to twist your wrists awkwardly if you’re a touch typist.
Doesn’t make a big difference for hunt-and-peck typists, though.
I'm already using right thumb on numpad enter, because mouse. That feels very satisfying. I imagine this one is similar. Non-butchered F keys? Great. Backtab could see a lot of use in some proprietary software (like banking). Ctrl "in place of Caps" actually predates modern layout. I think Emacs people love it. Overall quite interesting keyboard.
mfw proprietary software🤮 but the ctrl in place of caps lock actually helps me out a lot
Always delightful to watch another humorous keyboard review from The Keyboard Oracle. ;)
Speaking of ortho boards, I recently swapped from a fairly decent rubber dome board (NMB something or other) to a DIY ortholinear board with proper tactile switches, idk how but after maybe a day or two I figured out that I type faster on it than I ever did on a staggered layout... On the old board I averaged a pretty consistent 45-50 wpm with a lot of mistakes from hitting keys off center or missing entirely (this despite me writing stories in my spare time), on the ortho board I'm pretty consistently hitting 65 to just about 70 wpm with lucky bursts of speed up into the low 90s... Weirded the heck out of me, but it was a welcome surprise, and now I feel inclined to make more ortho boards or build a diy laptop with one in it.
Those switches actually sound pretty noice. Bet in a more substantial case with thicker keycaps they'd sound downright good.
What I've heard re: ortholinear is that it's for particular RSI. If you're making an ergo keyboard having an Ortho layout like this doesn't make it especially hard to pick up as you found but will be good for those people that do need it. In a niche like that I'd imagine hitting as many RSI as you can is beneficial to making sure you sell enough units.
Really nice to see that we are no longer limited to that annoying click jacket for the clicker.
Agreed. Death to click jackets!
ZEAL WANING: I don't really care either way in ortholinear vs. standard staggered layouts - I use both. The real benefit for me in the ergo world was switching to Colemak. It made real world difference in relieving my RSI, which was getting very severe in my left hand. Switched to Colemak almost 10 years ago, and the RSI is gone. END ZEAL WANING
I haven’t watched yet but was expecting a Swear Waning when I saw the thumbnail, so when I watch later I assume it’s safe to listen out loud.
Can confirm your switch removal method; it's the only reliable way I've found to deal with tight plates.
So many board reviews recently. I love it
I like how you craftily dealt with the “no cursing” clause.
I love ergonomic keyboards, but there’s no sense trying to hustle them onto people who aren’t drawn to them. You shouldn’t even consider switching to them unless typing on standard keyboards is causing you problems that less drastic changes fail to alleviate.
If you ARE interested in ergonomic boards, I recommend you start with something comparatively inexpensive like the Planck from Drop/OLKB, or Keebio’s Nyquist/Levinson or (my own favorite) the Iris. You can get up and running with those for as little as $120-150.
I only use a normal keyboard but my hands are already in ergonomic position because I type with 7 fingers (pinky is only for ctrl & shift, and use ring for pinky position.) so I don't really find any ergonomic benefits from truly ergo keyboards. It really depends on person by person, in my opinion.
Can confirm: learned to touch type, got RSI 6 months later. Still suffering a year on.
Legit subbed because you respected their desires by not swering
One reason I see for ortho is the F-B distance (both typed with left indicator), which his too wide in staggered keyboards.
hey thomas , ever thought of reviewing the unicomp pc122 .(the unicomp battlecruiser) . there arent many reviews that compare it to any other ibm keyboards . anyways , happy new year
Cheers mate, I don't have a Unicomp 122 atm unfortunately.
@@Chyrosran22 you better buy the black version when you get it, it looks sick
@@patr1ck28 I no longer spend money on keyboards.
I loved the singing part (it was spot on!)
You, over chromecast, coming through the office audio rig: ASMR personified. A voice like the smoothest smoked salmon this side of Norway 😎
Hehehe just add a Barry White bass track accompaniment...
In my experience ortholinear is just infinitely more convinient compared to the staggered designs. I also prefer splitting the letters and have the numpad on the middle, with this layout I can type 8-10 hours without any issues while with the standard staggered layout I have pain in my wrists and fingers after 1-2 hours. Plus an ortho layout is just way more efficent, an ANSI 60% board has around 60-65 keys (not sure exactly, 61 comes to mind) while my 60% ortho has 75.
What I would suggest is an ortho board with a programmable layout and a keycap set with a uniform height (for example, DSA). With that you can experiment with the layouts (I put the enter key to the bottom row on the left so I can hit it with my palm/base of my pinky, best decision ever). You don't need any fancy split and tented boards or exotic layouts like this one, those have a steep learning curve and require a lot of dedication. Meanwhile you can get used to a generic ortho board in 1-2 hours.
1:02 There's something about the way this company presents itself which I find uniquely unsettling, which is why I've never bought their products. I'm hoping to hear you touch upon this in your review.
13:40 guess not
Looks like a nice board for programming. That "backup" ctrl key is the original place to put it, which you should know because you own a dozen ibm boards.
I do, but I should point out that the Ctrl key is much older than the Model F, around two decades or so.
It dated so far back? I mapped my keyboard to switch the two because it looks much more reasonable, but always thought it started with Happy Hacking Keyboard (that's where I saw it at least). It feels so good I don't want to go back
@@SuperSohaizai The source of some unix/linux weirdness is because terminal emulators and basic programs still use key bindings for the dec vt terminals. We just don't have the same layout as the vt100 on modern boards.
@@SuperSohaizai I know Teletypes had it there as far back as the 60s.
12:13 How did he not laugh? 😂
As someone who wasted the first lockdown learning to touch type by switching fully over to DVORAK (forcing myself to touch type as I couldn't find the keys any other way). Having now switched back to QWERTY (I forgot how I used to type so just picked up touch typing on it), I can say that it really doesn't make it feel more comfortable other than on the right pinkie. This just makes ergo keyboards seem like a huge waste of time to learn.
P.s: Love the intro lmao.
Dvorak is, indeed, a waste of time, but I won't push better layouts because it doesn't really help unless there's a specific reason you're switching. I feel like ergo keyboards can also be a waste of time unless you have an RSI, can prevent an RSI, or are just really into it.
I love ergo keebs but the amount of people in the community who try to push a giant learning curve on others without reason is crazy
I like how it has mostly normally sized keycaps, unlike the X-Bows Knight.
2:54 Oh, no. Don't you dare reach your left index finger over there. You savage!
3:55 YAY! It's like a new year resolution!
I’d have to actually try it, but this thing looks amazing for coding.
-that little page up/down block thing on the left
-the tab in and out
-the backspace and delete
-the switches
… few other things..
Seems like it would be really cool to have those features in the layout they chose.
I would just switch the spaces and the enter/shift.
Again it might be awful, but in theory it looks like coding would be fun on it.
Ergodox/Redox has all advantages (excluding optoelectric switches) and is programmable (via QMK). I use redox keyboard for programming with box whites and it works perfectly. It even places () {} [] under convenient keys under a layer.
@@sir0herrbatka that sounds awesome!
I've never used a full ortholinear keyboard, apart from the cursor and numpad keys on a regular full keyboard. I bet if someone produced a stand alone staggered layout numpad, you'd be swearing at that! Not having to move your fingers as much diagonally when moving up or down a row does seem to make more sense though. It's a pity nobody seems to have conducted a twins study to find out which is better. They could do the same for other keyboard layouts too, to put the issue to rest.
I like the sound of those switches. If you had to rate them on a scale of ten for sound and feel, where your beloved SKCM blues were ten for both, where would these rate?
Happy New Year.
@Chryosran22 --- I'm curious. Did you try using your thumbs for the shift and enter keys, and the space bars? I haven't had a chance to try that keyboard and I've never seen it before, but it does look to me like that would be much easier than having to use your pinky fingers for those keys like on a regular keyboard. Especially if using a touch typing method or something similar, which it seems to me you did mention you sort of avoid, but which many people do make use of.
That Alabama song part killed me 🤣
disclaimer: not into ergo or ortho.
the reason ortho *can* be more ergonomic, is because it lets you use columnar stagger instead of row stagger (so technically that ends up not being technically ortho, but thats what this keyboard is). the idea being that columnar stagger more naturally suits the fact that your fingers have different lengths. idk how much that *helps*, but thats the idea. i think. theres probably other stuff too tho like i said, not super into ergo
I think the other part is just that it minimizes how far left and right your fingers have to move when typing on the top and bottom row.
I think one of the main reasons why I subscribe to you is because of the entertaining way that you swear about things.. I think, I could get used to the shift and in Enter key being down next to my thumbs.. Maybe..
Jumping with the CTRL key? Roger me with a wooden spoon while singing "What shall we do with a drunken sailor"
Happy New Year Tom!
tbh after about 3 months now using a split ergo keyboard i gotta say ortho is nice as hell, not because its more ergonomic or anything but its easier for me to memorize the distance between each key type without looking than on a normal keyboard
This ergonomic keyboard that is ergonomic is truly ergonomic
"...But things like jumping, which is of course _the control button_ "
I've never ever played a game where jump was control, and even if I did I'd do a backflip with how awkward it is to access before remapping it to spacebar; you know, the key your idle thumb can press instead of twisting the pinkie into itself while trying to keep the other fingers on wasd for mobility? I tried doing that just now and my ring finger got shitty with me haha. I get that everyone gets comfortable with defaults on what they prefer playing/grew up playing, so not trying to shame or anything. I just couldn't help feeling that your criticism was a, uh...heh, it was a bit of a _stretch_ lolololol
Despite preferring a "unfuckedwith" layout, I'm thankful for you electing to review this. I appreciate how fair you were because this thing looks pretty incredible with the layout and choice to use what looks like standard sized keycaps. Granted, you'd be getting a LOT of the longer keycaps but wacky boards like this are so rare with having that option to replace the stock ones. Would you be willing to verify if that's actually possible given sizing and stabalizer spacing?
People that know they need ergonomics know why a lot of the stuff is there. We know it's not for everybody... Or at least the sensible among us do. Like I have a dactyl manuform, but I encourage people not to switch away from standard if they don't need to
4:28 Everyone knows that jumping is the space bar and that CTRL is crouch.
Lies! Communist propaganda! Heretical slander!
@@Chyrosran22 Haven't you heard? Communist propaganda is all the rage at the moment!
Just wait until he hears about Minecraft's default keybinds.
@@s01itarygaming _"bunch of Scandinavian weirdos who like to assemble themselves their furniture..."_
Spacebar is for opening doors. Jumping? What's jumping? We're not Super Mario here...
I'm just looking for a keyboard. Not a huge keyboard enthusiast or collector. But you had me at 0:19, so I'm subscribing.
Wait, who the heck jumps with Control? Spacebar man, spacebar.
I have an old keyboard (bought at Walmart a lifetime ago) that has dedicated copy/cut/paste buttons on it. I loved that keyboard because of that, and kept using it long past the point of it's retirement (it was a pretty "meh" keyboard other than those buttons).
holy shit, considering how much I program, how did I not know about shift+tab...
Do you know about ctrl+arrow, and Ctrl+Shift+arrow keys?
Ctrl+home/end?
Personally I find it much easier to hit the keys on an ortholinear keyboard than a normal keyboard while typing fast.
I have no idea how I would even be able to type without looking without the keyboard stagger. The feel of the edge of the key gives so much information that it's pretty much entirely how I tell where my fingers are on the keyboard. Then again, I a.) don't touch type, and b.) have absolute dogwater typing accuracy, so I am doing a lot of things wrong
@@Vooman How does the stagger help you?
When typing many hours every day with moderate to high speed (90 - 125 wpm) for months (or years) the possibility of feeling strain and discomfort using staggered layouts and QWERTY/QWERTZ is high; I'd have never believed a few years back that switching to a split ergo/ortho and Colemak-DH would make such a difference, already after a few months. I agree, it's probably niche and not necessary for the normal office user in order to avoid RSI. If speed and volume of typing is a factor that matters, then layout changes are not "changes for the sake of change" but a convenience in very much the same way you prefer an (ortholinear) numpad on your keyboard.
I've always been under the impression that you really do *have* to be typing that fast, or faster, to get any real benefit out of ortho. It didn't really speed me up much the one time I tried one, then again, I don't really keep my hands in a consistent position at all, and have no idea how the heck I touch type considering.
@@DFX2KX If you have your own typing style and you're good with that - I agree, it might not give an advantage or make things even worse. On the other had - no one staggered the numpad because staggered is more convenient or becaues it would be consistent to all other keys on the board.
@@ThatManFromGermany The biggest difference between The numpad and the alphakeys is that is that my right arm and wrist are straight when typing on them, so my fingers move straight up and down.
The alphakeys are off to the left slightly, so both wrists are at angles. I suspect that's why staggard is still popular. Straight up on my fight index is U, resting is J, and straight back is M. To get my wrists straight enough to type like that on an ortho keyboard, I'd have to have my arms extended out a lot more than I usually do. The only Ortho keyboard I used was an otherwise standard 144 layout, so the qwerty row in particular wasn't comfortable to use.
I've never tried a split/tenting ortho, but I wager ortho works a LOT better on that type of keyboard unless the layout is utterly bonkers.
I have actually seen staggered numpads built into trackball mise. They where also angled to match controls, and where staggered for similar reasons best I can tell. my G600 MMO mouse has a veeeeery slight stagger to it's thumb button keys, too, and those also function as a numbpad, albiet a niche one.
even still this keyboard, where it varies a bit vertically, seems like it'd be more comfortable as it accommodates a bit for finger length. I do fine on the numpad, enough that I won't get a keyboard that lacks one typically, but I don't enter endless strings of numbers on it either.
I feel like the typical keyboard is pretty ergonomic for me at this point since my hands literally grew around the fact that I've used one almost every single day for 30 years.
Ergonomic keyboards always look like they’re designed by aliens but the fact that he had a number of positive things to say about this board, especially how good the switches, are, goes to show this company is onto something, at least.
Dear Mr Swearworddude, my approach to this topic of ergo keyboards would be using vr motion controllers (with or without a headset). The only thing necessary would be to track every finger individually i would suggest the valve index. What do you think about this? Are there any good approaches with vr you know of? Ive seen nothing good till now except for eye tracking or something which is linked to your visual cortex but works slow.
Ps: I dont want a chip in my brain because elon musk shouldnt know what hentais i like.
I’ve used a tented ergo keyboard for years, couldn’t type or write at all without them, and came here just to hear you make fun of them. 😹
The whole point of ergonomics is that every body needs different designs to be comfortable. So for some people some “ergonomic” keyboards are going to be exactly the wrong thing
And no one thing like tenting or pinky use or whatever will be the right one for everybody. Ideally we’d have options and adjustability or not as needed, but yeah, that runs up the costs.
And ideally we’ll get more videos about ergo keyboards as amusing as yours
It took me about 2 weeks to really get used/up to speed to an earlier (first?) revision of the truly ergonomic keyboard about a decade ago which I still use for work and am very happy with. The first week was wildly unproductive due to the slightly shifted key positions.
I use a wooting keyboard for gaming, no point in not using different tools for different tasks when it.
Sadly I think that this newer Truly ergonomic model looks worse for me than the one I use, there are pretty big differences in the layout when it comes to the modifiers and middle row stuff. Hopefully my old kbd will continue to work for a long time, in worst case I could probably replace the controller if it actually dies at some point.
Thomas has an absolutely legendary use of the English Language, specifically regarding swears. I could hear you swear for hours straight..... maybe make a Vinyl full of swears? Id buy.
Him: told me not to use any curse words
Also him: *proceeds to say every possible curse word ever*
When a company has a strict sets of review rules that means the product is bad thus require marketing. I've seen Thomas reviewed Mistel board and it came much better that I still consider buying it when I have some budget to spend on despite that video is more like negative than positive.
Have you heard of the kailh box opticals? I use them and they seem to be the best clicky optical out there
As an American I subconsciously figured that it *was* a real gun you pulled out on screen until I read the text.
The reason why you don't like ergo boards is related to why you don't like alternate layouts or home row typing-because you need to try all of them together. Home row typing with QWERTY is awful, ergo boards are awful without home row typing, and dvorak makes no sense without home row typing.
All of them together, however, makes for a delightfully comfortable experience where you hardly have to move your fingers at all.
Hoping to see a review of the CharaChorder soon!
more ergo review pls
I have two CLEAVE keyboards and on two independent machines they have very annoying USB compatibility problems. While typing itself is very nice I have to unplug and re-plug the CLEAVE on every Linux boot. Originally I bought it because I used the predecessor (TECK) - that worked without any problems.. Also the predecessor was more flexible in terms of reprogramming the key functions. Unless they change something on the hardware/firmware to fix the problems (the 'latest' firmware version on their website does not fix it) I personally would not recommend this keyboard. In general the build-quality is nice .. but what all does that help if you cannot boot normally with it?!
The TECK also has the option to remove the palm rests and has buttons lined up along the center, rather than split into two rows.
Did you just say you jump with Control??? I have never heard of this. No judgement, just caught me off guard
That voice is smooth
When you were describing the controls that you were having trouble with in games, I couldn't help but wonder what games you play. What is your main rotation for gaming?
I play a lot of games so I rotate a lot. At the moment I'm playing Diablo 2 R, Tarkov, Ace Attorney, and Ready or Not, but I play lots of others on the side as well.
What is that smaller keyboard you use for comparison @ 11:05?
wait since when do you jump in games with ctrl?
Communist!
I like how you marked words which will not be used :) better to know exact which ones XD
looks truly amazing
Have you got zealpc's new clicky switches ?
Their previous model is less weird in the middle, and after some time I found the layout to be really nice. The CTRL and Shift keys are better placed, ideal if you are using them a lot (not gaming). The Cleave is fine but required more time to adjust.
would love to see you review the dygma raise something. as someone with rsi problems its really great. i use nordic iso layout + the tenting kit and im loving it
It missed the mark for me, because it doesn’t let you use the thumbs enough. CTRL, Alt/opt and windows/command should be accessible from your thumbs in a way that lets you keep your fingers on the home row
4:24 what games are you playing that have jump binded to control
I mean, you might not like it, which is fair enough, but it looks like you moved your hands less than you normally do in your typing demos. Which for some specific ergonomic reasons might be a good thing. I think as far as the middle cluster goes, they might have been on to something if they'd changed the shift & enter functions around with the delete & backspace ones and moved those middle bottom keys up a bit. And as you indicated the ctrl and alt keys really need to be physically higher up.
Really cool they put some thought into the switches though. Noice!
I hate it, but less than I hate most ergos!
Those modifiers at the bottom left and bottom right corners look like they'd be best actuated with the side of the hand below the pinky. That's how I'd do it anyways, but having two keys there seems awkward
Just wondering, how can you compare these switches to Box clicky's click bar mechanism? I'm always curious about the clapper mechanism from this.
I made a Teardown video about these switches where I show in detail how they work.
@@Chyrosran22 Do it again I wasn't looking :p
Hello fellow furry keyboard enjoyer and Chyrosran22 watcher.
@@SockyNoob Oh hey there
I would like to see him do the Planet Computers Gemini or Cosmo Communicator keyboard or Pine64's Pinephone Keyboard
When he gave the weight in Imperial I didn't hear if he said it was one half banjo or three quarters banjo.
I ordered a cheap eyoosu board from amazon that has these snapspring switches but of the non-optical variant. Hopefully I like them enough to harvest them and give them a good home on a keyboard kit
Why the hell would you use "Ctrl" for jumping while gaming settings??
CTRL to jump? What dimension are we living?
I've got a sneaky suspicion that even though this keeb is not the end-all in the ergo community, I give it 2 months for someone to sawzall it in half, wire it back together and post something gratifying on deskthority ;)
Back in the day I had a Microsoft spilt keyboard and quite often nearly broke my index finger when doing an "illegal" H or other key hitting the middle 🤣, where on that thing the three LEDs were doing their led thing, which is nothing because num lock is for accountants.
Say what you will, but this KB (actually the previous version, with almost the same layout) which I have for 9 years made my tendinitis totally go away.