(Why) Do Competitive Players Hate "Off-Meta"?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 28 พ.ย. 2024
- When it comes to non-meta strategy in TF2, its not uncommon to find vocal anger and frustration from opponents. Why is this, and what causes this culture around 6s? Furthermore, is the meta being held back from evolving or is it still changing in more subtle ways?
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Hope you enjoyed! I recommend that you also watch this video from QueeQuey, who played an entire season of engineer and tried to develop new strategies around it (th-cam.com/video/X4J8uHLvVFo/w-d-xo.html). It's interesting and touches on some of the same topics that I cover here
How is this pin a day old when the video is 4 hours old?
@@Lawlz4Dayzz 🤫
When you say that these 4 classes that are particularly used, are the best classes to use in most scenarios; shouldn't this be an eye opener that these classes are problematic compared to the other 5 classes? Why should solider be a generalist? A Soldier can be a great pocket without a shotgun, A soldier is mobile due to rocket jumping, which in some ways nullifies his movement speed penalty. The soldier has the second highest health and has really high damage, including cheap splash damage. Soldier also has three supportive items that are extremely underrated, which two of them can turn Soldier and his team into a tank, the conch and battlions.
Soldier also has a straight upgrade of a weapon that isn't banned, the escape plan. This weapon has negligible downsides, a mark for death which can be negated by fast movement speed and dodging,. And it's downside of reduce healing can literally be put away by switching weapons. Speaking of it's reduce healing, this weapon easily allows medics to build uber. I can also state if you don't use the escape plan, the market gardener is a useful weapon for picking; but regardless, with roamer bomb rushing sometimes, he can get a pick or more.
So let me conclude my points, Soldier can be a tank due to his health, overheal, or with conch and battlions. Soldier can flank and pick off enemies due to his rocket jumps, especially with gunboats. He also can be on the frontlines for offense and defense, he can support his team with the 3 banners, he can help medic build uber, he can damage enemies very well, and if he doesnt get a direct hit, his splash is very useful at decent damage.
I cannot understand how people can call all these examples that one class can do is considered balanced, and does all these things better or at times can do these specfic things just in one life; while other classes such as Spy, Pyro, engineer, and heavy cannot have strict limitations that keep them from branching off into doing all said hings while soldier can do their jobs and other classes jobs combined and more efficently.
I could go on and talk about demoman and maybe Scout, but I think my points about Soldiers are enough to really make people think about why one class should be able to branch into all these jobs, power, pick, and support, and have very few exploitable weaknesses.
@@connorbyers2415 I think you are right that soldier is a very powerful class due to his ability to fit many roles on a team but these other classes often do 1 of those roles better
you mention soldier being able to tank and he does have high health to do that but heavy has more health enemies have to get through and a constant stream of bullets when spun up and the engineer creates another target the enemy has to take down which kind of has has a similar effect to adding an extra player to their team. not to mention soldier's mobility sacrifising his health (even more so with the banners which do take time to charge since no gunboats) thus reducing his tanking potential if he wants to go faster
pyro is a weird class I generally find hard to place but soldiers ability to juggle enemies with rockets is powerful it is definitely no airblast and while soldier's splash can do a decent job at checking for spies it is hard to beat the stream of fire a flamethrower provides and lighting the spies on fire also makes them easier to track
soldier can jump in and secure a pick with some well placed rockets or a sick market garden but this could get difficult if his target is protected by a sentry or a low ceiling where a spy could use their invisibility (and some degree of not getting too unlucky) to secure that pick
soldier is tf2's jack of all trades he is always a good pick even if he might often not be the MOST optimal one
as for the direct upgrade melee, this is a problem more classes suffer from since the damage from a stock melee swing is often worse than firing your primary weapon at them especially if you can trade that in for some kind of utility effect the exceptions to this either have a reason not to use their primary at close range (demo self damage and sniper's rifle being built for long ranges) or they use their melee in a special way (engineer for his buldings and spy to get a one shotting backstab). pyro even has a literal straight upgrade melee and I have never heard anyone say the third degree is too strong only that the straight upgrade nature does not fit the rest of the game's design
@@MachuThePichu Soldier is far by more mobile and harder to hit than heavy. Heavy may have more health but heavy's health doesn't really help due to his very restrictive mobility and massive hitbox. Soldier's damage output is more consistent due to his splash damage, while with heavy enenimes have to be within tight proximity of each other; heavy's minigun can only shoot one person at a time and turning to change target after killing one can be the decider between life and death.
Yes, I watched a video recently where rocketman joe or whatever that youtuber's name is, making valid points that soldier is the second best class to spy check.
As for spy to get a pick near a sentry, as a spy main a sentry is very dangerous to be around and limits plays, especially if there is a razor back sniper and/or pyro. Then having to worry about engineer(s) himself. Soldier is far better equipped to handle a sentry nest than spy and survive.
As for Soldier's melees and the other classes; Pyro's third degree is an upgrade but it technically does have a a downside, the risk to get up close to an enemy while the flamethrower would be the better option in most cases, and as well the very limited uses you can get out of the weapon. The third degree may have no red text but it has very niche viable options. Viablitity is also a deciding factor in what makes a weapon an upgrade or not.
The only weapon that can be considered an upgrade for pyro is the power jack. The weapons vulnerability is laughable as is the mark for death on soldier's escape plan. You just put it away and it's instantly gone (just about with the escape plan).
To talk about another class and his melee would be scout and the atomizer. The atomizer is a viable tool but the downside on using the triple jump has to be timed right due to the slow deploy speed. That downside helps keep the upside of a triple jump in check.
Even if the other classes have one role they perform better than soldier, soldier's jack or all trades makes him more viable since he can fit in these roles better than say, Spy, engineer, Pyro, and heavy as in a one class fits all roles. In laymen's terms, Spy is not good at offense/defense, combat, tanking, or supporting. Say Spy is though better at a pick, soldier still can pick while fitting all these other roles. There really is no use 9.9/10 times to go spy when you have a roamer, direct hit soldier, market gardner, bomber, stock rocket launcher, air strike, beggars etc.
My point is that Soldier is way to viable and all the buffing in the world the way these specialist are being buffed to keep them where the community and valve wants them is not going to make them viable. The only way other classes such as engine, spy, heavy, and pyro is that they get a buff that completely reworks them. Or, a class such as soldier is nerfed.
The Disciplinary Action stands out to me as an unlock that is specifically banned to make 'full-time' Heavies worse. Whether you frame that as 'enforcing the meta classes' or 'avoiding a non-fun strategy to be optimal' is something you can probably argue either way for :)
Couldn’t the whip also be used to bring a Sniper to mid? That feels like it would make mid fights more miserable than a Heavy to mid
While everyone cites this as the reason for it's ban, which i agree is invalidating, there is also the consideration that it can just as easily bring a scout, soldier, sniper, or medic to mid faster than the other team as well, which would make it not too unlike a "you need to equip if the other team equips it" item (like old vita saw, for example.) since being first to mid is wildly important.
To me, 6s boils down to a desire to death match over any other aspect of TF2. So everything about the game mode caters to this. This means every class which does not excel at 1v1s or is too dominate with certain unlock strategies, will be hindered in some manner.
Hence why 5cp is the preferred game mode, (hard for low mobility classes to compete without the use of certain unlocks which are likely banned) hard limits on classes (playing three pockets against each other would be rather boring after a certain point), and maps with terrible sight lines (sniper is simply loathed for his ability to pick off from a distance).
From what I understood, prolander came about as a desire to allow for more classes to play, on more maps, while allowing for additional choices for meta options. It simply is not as popular due to how TF2 competitive is. Players want to death match, not play a more advance version of TF2.
holy smokes this sums it up way better than whatever i wanted to comment
As important as deathmatching is to 6’s, the 1v1’s aren’t nearly as constant as people make them out to be and can be undesirable sometimes. Like yeah a player winning a random 1v1 can completely change the pace of the game sometimes but I still feel like teamfights and sac pressure and all that are much more important (which tbf still involves a good amount of dm). This also ties into what makes 5cp desirable is also the reward for winning your fights, either being able to push out and turn the game state around if you win your defense or closing out the round. In other gamemodes played in comp like payload or koth the results of team fights are much more permanent since the points don’t get recaptured or in the case of the latter there’s no new portion of the map to play on so the dynamics that change in the next fight would be execution focused. Not disagreeing that players want to run around and shoot things but there’s more to it than meets the eye. Also sniper is very good on a decent portion of the map pool.
6s is literally less of a dm fest than any other form of tf2 full stop
@@lamptowel I think you're conflating dm with spam. Peak dm is mge and that's literally 2 players and zero spam
@@oiytd5wugho 6s is less dm based than any other form because it requires the most teamplay
pyro can reach mid as fast as the scout depending on the route you take with the detonator + powerjack. and has a very strong niche with what they can do with the detonator (destroy stickies without line of sight, long-range pressure, cripple the scout) and can also be easily re-applied if light classes like the scout make a beeline for the nearest small health pack.
the flamethrower is a pretty weak deathmatching weapon sure, but the dragon's fury turns otherwise hopeless matchups like scout vs pyro into a surprisingly even one (the dragon's fury has great kill potential vs a flanking scout, and the detonator is a very consistent long-range pressure/finisher tool and even enables bombing medics to a certain degree)
the fast projectile speed and longer reach of the DF allows the pyro to control a lot more space without relying on the airblast to punish soldiers or demos, and not be owned completely by the scout that plays well around the stock flamethrower's slow and short projectiles.
even in pubs, the dragon's fury is criminally underrated and serves as the number 1 example in my book for why the 6's meta has NOT been fully experimented or explored.
I would 100% use the DF more if my Graphics Card didn't stutter every time I pulled the trigger. Such a good weapon
the DF still suffers from an incredibly short range
@@MrFancyGamer that's why you det jump or use the detonator to apply pressure to people trying to stay too far outside of your range
that or be wary of map positioning where you force people to stay within your range
the scouts can just deny you while you jump
DF nerf makes it too inconsistent (even with perfect aim) due to the "full" hit requirement.
Pyro is completely fine in 6s, if 6s didn't play 5cp. The only reason they play 5cp is because classes like pyro and engineer will be worse
I think when casual players talk about 6s being too "stale", they do refer to the macro-interactions and strategies of 6s. Yes, 6s can and does have incredible depth in its micro-interactions, but I think many players would play (and respect) 6s more if there were more varied general strats they could use. Unfortunately, though, that's never going to happen without undoing the groundwork of the entire format, so there's always going to be vitriol from the casual community, and the "most competitive format". (I put that in quotes not to be sarcastic, it's common knowledge that 6s was built from the ground up to be as competitively balanced of a mode as possible).
I big gripe I do have with 6s myself is how limiting the offclasses seem to be when they ARE used. Engie is "Sentry and then go hide", Heavy is "Sentry but real player", Pyro is "airblast", etc. These classes have an incredible amount of depth and utility that just aren't used or highlighted in the pinnacle of competition because 6s literally has no room for them in the macro-level. They're used for their most baseline purpose and that's really it for most players.
I'd also like to add that, IMO, when a casual player complains about 6s being too stale, we could say something to the effect of "have you tried/seen Prolander/HL? They're likely what you're looking for." It's insane how few casual players know about HL and ESPECIALLY Prolander's existences, when they'd be perfect fits for them otherwise. I dunno I'd recommend NR6s tho, since I feel knowledge of restricted 6s is almost necessary at points.
@@blacksmithgames8739format nobody plays and sniper vs sniper with other mercs
When the so called competitive play has literally broken one of its strongest class, engie, to being borderline unplayable then it has failed. How can this possibly be a competitive version of TF2? It just feels like another game with TF2's skin... If Smash Melee had its comp scene like this I bet it would be as popular in wider circles as TF2 6's is, which is to say it isn't. Sorry for the rant it just angers me how so far removed 6's is from TF2 and yet it's treated as what comp, nay, what TF2 "should be!" To competitive players. Imo servers like UncleTopia are waaayyyy better at being a competitive version of TF2 without sacrificing what the game actually is.
@@cheezeebutter452 im genuinely curious as to where youve seen this sentiment echoed, because speaking as a comp player myself, ive never seen it before
The reason for this is simply because these classes are INHERENTLY LIMITED.
For instance, compared to Demoman, an Engineer's area denial is incredibly inflexible. Sentries are incredibly powerful, but that power is offset by how slow they are to build, upgrade, and move.
Engineer himself has average speed, which in terms of a fast-paced mode like 6s is incredibly slow. He can mitigate this partially with items like the Eureka Effect but his mid will always be awful on a lot of maps.
Part of this is due to the 5CP gamemode inherently limiting the ability these offclasses have to influence the game. Attack/Defend maps can encourage the use of Engineer or Heavy on defense for example, but attack/defend gamemodes just aren't necessarily that fun for either party. The defending team basically just forces a stalemate the whole round while the attacking team throws themselves at the control point until it's captured.
Compared to this, the tug-of-war nature of 5CP or KOTH is incredibly refreshing. At any moment, both teams have to be ready to push every advantage and mitigate every disadvantage. There's no dull moment when at any time a soldier could leap onto your combo and you don't have a sentry gun, a 300 pound Russian with a minigun, and an airblast to protect you.
6s is a natural extension and refinement of the game of TF2. It emphasizes the truly sophisticated mechanical and strategic elements that a competitive format is supposed to.
pyro would be able to close the distance if they'd unban the detonator... (t. salty casual pyro main)
det isn't banned in NA
i didn't know it was banned, but personally i think it should be as much as i love it. if you ask me, the scorch shot and the detonator aren't actually that meaningfully different. they're both annoying long range spam tools and a boost to mobility simultaneously. but the SS leans more towards the former, and the det leans towards the latter.
this slight difference is why the SS is so hated and the det is so loved, despite being nearly the same exact weapon. people who want to mindlessly spam will take the SS, and people who want sick movement will use the det. people who adopt an annoying playstyle pick the slightly more annoying weapon, so it gets all the hate.
but if you take the SS away, like by banning it? all that means is SS spammers will switch to the det and spam it nearly as effective as they already were. its like the SS is the designated fall guy to protect the det from criticism. they're both equally unhealthy for the game by nature of being long range AOE afterburn spam.
i do wish pyro had burst mobility without having to give them an annoying crutch fire rocket launcher. like, imagine if the default flare gun could effectively flare jump too.
No pyro weapon is banned in RGL
@@lipschitzlyapunovnot even phlog?
Why is it banned anyway?
As a new(er) player, what attracted me to TF2 was the freedom in skill and strategy expression and the compeititive aspect within casual but never comp itself. I had my own journey and exploration of this game without any rules or limitation except those I set for myself. Comp limiting freedom so Im just a worse version of other players rather than my own unique playstyle limits my interest in comp to say the least.
Imo community servers like Skial and UncleTopia are better competitive versions because they only change things that increase skill expression rather than sand off any and all variations of skill with a nuke like what 6's does. Firstly they don't do the whole 6 players only junk, 12 players per team, and on Skial you could even play with more than 24 people in a lobby unlike the base game and a lot of popular games on Skial are the ones that have 24 players per team. Plus, since most people who find out about TF2 servers are more experienced with the game you get a bunch of players who are just better because they're not actively figuring out how to play while they're playing.
If you're interested and don't already know about community servers then you can easily check them out in the community tab, once you're there you can type a specific type of server like "skial" into the tags section. Although for some reason I have not been able to find UncleTopia using that same method but UncleTopia has it's own website you can find by searching: uncletopia.com.
I would say that Skial is like the next step in terms of going from casual to competitive because again everyone there basically knows what they're doing but the players are not super tryhard and there's options to turn on things like random crits if the majority of people desire it. UncleTopia is the step after Skial because there's no option to turn on things like random crits and there's a class limit of 3 per class, which I think is a good thing for a competitive TF2 mode, and the players more tryhard than on Skial.
Sorry you can't use overpowered items in an environment designed to be balanced and interesting. This is like complaining about items off in Smash.
@@Sammysapphira sorry that i don't wanna do the same thing every game
The restrictions never really bothered me honestly. Most of the best weapons aren't banned.
This speaks to a problem I (Agro) have observed with off classes, in that if you're not constantly practicing with that class together with your team, your team won't know how to make the most of the resource, and to shore up the gaps left from playing with one less of the meta classes in your team.
I think what's interesting is that tf2 and smash melee share a lot of parallels in how things developed as roughly two decade old games. Things get banned in melee for many similar reasons, you could probably simplify it to just banning things that would make each respective game "degenerate". In melee they implemented a ledge grab limit to inhibit stalling, banned many stages, banned an infinite combo called wobbling, all of which are part of the game and you could argue are fair as a result, but there are just so many issues with all these things that create a sort of gameplay that devolves into camping/drawing out the game or creating unfair situations for many characters that ultimately feels unfun or unfair.
Many of the bans in tf2 are for similar reasons, you don't want base jumper because most classes can't effectively deal with it, mad milk will just be who tosses the better milk and stall fights out longer, many other bans are for those two reasons. But even despite all the banning for creating unfun/degenerate gameplay, both games live and die from having interesting interactions so banning uninteractive/unfair weapons is only for the health of the game. I think that largely what's happening is people hate tf2's comp scene because an overwhelming majority of people are casual to the point that it's kinda toxic, melee almost has the opposite problem.
I think other classes could possibly see more play in niche situations as you described with pyro being played often against froyo if they were afforded more opportunities to develop in practice environments. All it takes is one very dedicated individual to pull out their niche pick and really lab it out and develop strategy to make it work imo. This has also been the case in melee with amsa's yoshi and axe's pikachu, both characters in the past considered to be incapable of winning tournaments but eventually making it work. The problem really lies in it being a team game with a culturally set meta. As you said, people won't practice against or with it seriously or at all, so it won't develop as much as it possibly could (this also happened in melee, but we got rollback matchmaking and, because it's a 1v1 game, people have been almost forced to practice weird matchups). Otherwise you might see more off-classing and, ultimately, the "true" meta could be a lot less set in stone than the wider competitive community believes right now, it's just that these things work in general the overwhelming majority of the time and, to be clear, are the best overall, so unless there's a cultural shift it'll stay this way. edit: and to be clear, the main 4 classes will certainly stay, just might see people swap around more
The traditional 6v6 format is more of a quake than what TF2 is. In Quake there is teamwork and it is very important, but in the end the importance is given to 1v1 and the meta weapons are the weapons that best adapt to that. 6v6 is the same, the META are classes that shine in 1v1, and the favorite modes are those that allow those interactions, add to that the classes that do not have that ability are capped by banning the weapons that give them those abilities. People want to play TF2, a game where there is a balance between teamwork and 1v1, that is why they prefer casual, lander formats or servers that are a bit more serious like uncletopia (even Dane who admits those 6v6 mistakes)
As a competitively casual player, theres def a niche between comp and casual I wish there was the is more like a pick up match or tourament that I can show up and be compeitive in without all the hassle organization and scheduling but without random crits, stacking snipers, 12 players on the point vs me where my team is no where to be found etc.
It could be more like a Minecraft servee that has a centralized Hud for Hunger games then invidual tourament games with a certain number of players or even specific roles filled by each team till the game begins in smore like a 12 vs 12, 9vs 9, 6 vs 6, and 3vs 3 format and so forth.
Itd prob need a big youtuber to push such big ideas to the TF2 community anyway but thats after any and all Beta testing and design.
It would be really cool if you did a video explaining weapon bans.
Like going weapon per weapon explaining the reasoning behind it not being allowed in 6s.
Maybe every class would be too long of a video so you could split it into parts.
Anyway i love the content keep it up
aWoolenSleevelet did a 2 part series on that, the short answer is that bans are (generally) for weapons that are a) overpowered or b) buggy as hell but the videos are over 5 years old by now so having an updated version that be most delightful
@@swagguy7515 Isnt that video outdated since a bunch of weapons got whitelisted from 6s since its been six years?
eyy me bottle of rumpus
I think the problem is that many players expect competitive TF2 to be more like Overwatch, when it really acts more like Counter-Strike.
On the one hand, comp TF2 could be a hero shooter rock-paper-scissors thing where players try to make strategies and counterstrategies using all of the game's tools.
But the fact is, TF2 is mostly just quake with funny hats. So players who want to play this game competitively do so because they want to tap into the depths of its mechanics.
Yeah a lot of the bans/limits are there to de-emphasize rock paper scissors gameplay. If you were able to whip a heavy to mid sure, you could counter that by running a sniper, but what if they decide not to run a heavy to mid? Then you're stuck with a sniper on mid. This sort of gameplay is fine in games where there's a deep economy related to items and the games rounds/respawn system are designed to accommodate constant switching around, but tf2 isn't like that and the item based counterplay is all pretty braindead anyway. If a scout decided to run soda popper I'm not gonna feel like I outsmarted him by equipping the direct hit when I respawn.
Pin this
I feel like 5CP might be part of the problem. Something like A/D or Payload gives more classes a chance to shine.
But 6s doesn't care about that. 6s is about what the soldier and scout mains find fun, not who is best at playing with and against different classes.
Asymmetric gamemodes like A/D and Payload aren't good for 6v6 gameplay, which is supposed to be fast paced. Payload forces you to play at the speed of the cart (slow) and this plus the level designs heavily favor the defender, while the skewed respawn times favor the attacker - one side gets more ability to pressure but has to fight at a constant disadvantage. Snowballing is a lot more common and is influenced by factors outside how well each team plays; it happens enough in Highlander and that's closer to TF2's standard style.
@@rbfilms4752 5cp map design is only "good" for 6v6 because most 5cp maps played were designed purely for 6v6.
@@benshulz4179 And dodgeball maps were designed purely for dodgeball. Your point is?
@@rbfilms4752 payload and a/d maps could be made for 6v6
after all, 5cp maps were for 6v6.
it's disrespectful, they are saying they're better than you and want to rub it in.
While I don't exactly play TF2 comp, I do agree with your points that the meta is not stale but mostly explored. Saying 6s meta is stale is pretty similar to saying CSGO meta is stale, I think both have been developed throughout the years and reached a rather stable point.
lol as usual all I see in these discussion of 6s format are casual players flaming competitive. there's always really onesided sentiment from the casual side.
Hey! Long time viewer, first time commenter and I appreciate the pinned comment!
There's definitely a mix of feelings on this that shows a large disparity between those who are casual and those who are more entrenched in the competitive scene. I think the lack of conversations between the two groups is one of the major reasons why the divide here has happened as you can probably see in the comments here and on your previous video. If the scene wants to grow, or at least start breaking the stereotypes that we have, I think it's worth starting these conversations/outreach. There's a reason why the attitude has started to shift among TH-camrs, you used to only hear "all competitive is bad" but more and more I'm starting to hear "Competitive is bad... Except for RGL" or "I'm just not a fan", which I think shows that the community is taking steps in the right direction. From my talks with people like Dane etc it's clear that the meta and the culture *together* is a large barrier to entry.
That being said, I do think the metagame has a large opening for non-traditional classes to shine, or at least play. For anyone unaware, that was essentially the point of the Engineer in 6s video. You can play what you want to play, you just have to create and adapt strategies for it. I don't think that the common saying of "start with highlander" is productive, and people should just play what they want to. If you want to play HL, go for it. If you want to play 6s, do that instead, and so on. I would like to see more players experiment, but I think it's clear that I (and others) need to be the change that we'd like to see in the world and do it ourselves. I mean my "How to" video on Engineer isn't going to finish itself. This goes for anything in the meta, but goes doubly for off-classes and showing what they can actually do other than their defined role of doing exactly 1 thing then abusing the resup bind.
Also as a sidenote you consistently say that running a full-time offclass is a less effective strategy, and I think this is true! If you assume that the player is also good at the class that they're swapping off of. For example if Jay plays Pyro then yeah that is obviously less effective, but for me it is much better for me to play Engineer than Scout because I am quite frankly, terrible at scout.
As for your ending conclusions, I don't think you realize how tilted some players can get to immediately start calling for bans on weapons or the amount of players that we have that ARE the stereotype of Competitive players. They're definitely in the minority but they are typically loud. I listen to them but it becomes hard when they start calling for the Beggars Bazooka or Scottish Resistance to be banned (among others). We definitely have fads in the community and I think based on how we react to the fad is important. The last fad was the Beggar's with everyone and their dog wanting to use it because Antoni is cool (which is fair). Right now the fad is the Loch, maybe it'll stick, maybe it'll pass. We'll see. It's just emblematic of how much of the metagame is able to be played with if we want.
Yeah I definitely have mixed and at times differing opinions on the topic which is why I think pointing out a different perspective is just better for making informed opinions (aside from the fact that it's just entertaining to watch)
The thing is, I think that someone who wants to be a competitive player needs to be able to play a class like Scout. Arguably, Scout is easier in 6's than he is in a pub, but that's just one example. Any player who wants to do well in a competitive format should have enough proficiency in all 9 classes to where they can do what's expected of them in a newcomer lobby, which frankly isn't a lot.
Even as someone who's basically never played competitive versions of games, it really feels like at times that in any community where the stereotype is "players who play competitive hate casual and ruin the fun of the game", that sentiment is way smaller than the subset of casual players who constantly shit on competitive players and act like competitive play is objectively unfun and competitive players are wrong for enjoying it, even when they hang around their own circles and aren't hurting anyone or getting mad at casuals. I notice this a lot with TF2, Smash Bros, and Dead By Daylight.
@@somekinnn there is a competitive DbD?!
@@emirwattabor6991 Someone who plays 6s and only wants to run Demoman because they like his gameplay isn't "proficient in all 9 classes", but that's fine because they're playing the character they like AND "doing what's expected of them in a newcomer lobby".
Also, I don't see how Scout is easier to play in 6s, when you need good communication with your team, awareness of what the game state is, and better DM in general to do well VS. in pubs.
I'd like to throw my two cents into the discussion of balancing. One thing I think most people tend to miss in terms of balance when it comes to casual and competitive is the most basic difference between the two. Team sizes. A lot of people tend to not factor them. It's why I tend to not agree with balancing with competitive in mind, because the mode is so fundamentally different from casual. Some weapons just have a different effect on different game modes, team sizes, team comps and so forth.
I do agree with you saying that the meta is there for a reason in terms of balance, but I think a lot of people have to keep in mind that the balance is with 6's in mind. I remember the videos from Funke and Uncle Dane (no shade towards them) that encouraged balancing for competitive, and I'd ask myself. "Okay, but how do you even do spy?" You'd have to pretty much rework the class to fit into that game mode's meta. Like you said, people are going to use the best strategies to win, and in the case of 6's given the weapon bans and game modes that are played, it's why the standard team comp is the standard. Of course people aren't going to like the meta when it's the same thing, but in a competition... people are going to use the best thing. If you're in a footrace, you're going to wear running shoes, not high heels, but I'm getting off track.
Balancing I think should be done in consideration of what more experienced players and the general community can do with a weapon, rather than just focusing on a specific game mode. Balance purely for competitive (well, a specific mode i should say), can harm items that are not even an issue in casual. While balancing with only the casual aspect in mind, causes more weapons to be banned in competitive settings due to being too much for said mode.
I like this video a lot. I do think there is a valid discussion to be made on the competitive meta, offclassing, and general community consensus on where to take the game. I just wanted to throw my two cents into the ring, and also wanted to say thanks for the good watch.
This coming from someone with painfully little comp experience in tf2 (but a fair bit in other games). The idea of people wanting off meta banned or refusing to play against it isn’t unheard of. People’s egos are fragile, and loosing to something that is suboptimal makes them feel like they "deserved" the win, even if they played worse than the other player (I play competitive Pokémon, sorry but I use 1v1 verbiage). And even spectators, when they see a better player using worse options and succeeding it makes the skill gap seem even more apparent. Something like "they can win this trash teams, and I still don’t preform well with meta teams." Which leads to (in Pokémon a minority of) players throwing hate towards good players who use inconsistent teams (not counting players who use bad teams with polarizing matchups hoping to predict the team the opponent is using. Those players are often mocked and for good reason). You make it out to be that the ratio is flipped in tf2, and by your account the majority of players have that attitude rather than the minority. If so, kinda curious why you think it might be different than other competitive games.
(also, found your videos recently. Its really interesting seeing how competitive players in different games approach things and the differences in philosophies between different competitive communities)
i think that joining a competitive scene then being surprised that theres less variation in gameplay is honestly a bit silly. nobody gets into competitive counter strike and then gets mad that they can't use the sawed off shotgun or m249 full time. in competitive you are playing to win, so playing anything other than the best strategies inherently goes against the spirit of the competition and i think that people are right to get upset at people who off class, especially once it's clear that it wont work. you're literally just griefing at that point. im not even a competitive player (at least in tf2) ive only done some pugs but im not upset that the comp meta is so specific, because quite frankly 6s is it's own game that is only tangentially related to casual and highlander, at least in my opinion
not to mention 6s is an unofficial gamemode like if most players deem something as arbitrarily "unfun" then they can ban it i never understand why some casual players get so hung up on "developer intent" because competitive communities for games have always gone against developer intent with 3rd party orgs usually having different rules than official matchmaking
I'm sure its been tried somewhat, but I wonder if introducing more attack/defend maps to the 6s pool would help with this perception that off classes are never used. Gravelpit used to be played alot and saw some more varied strategies, and I understand being the cart baby is boring in 6s but payload is a TF2 staple at this point and maybe should be explored more.
I think something more people need to hear is that if something works and allows you to win, it is still just as viable as the optimal strat.
and while of course, there are counterplays to these strategies, if they don't employ them or you're able to work around them, it can end up being a valid non-troll strat.
I'm generally more casual but I do have comp experience, and I play competitively in many other games too. When I look at tf2's 6s meta, i feel like it's starting to un-stale with more offclassing to sniper and pyro and spy at top levels. it's exciting to see and it reminds me of how another competitive game with a perceived "stale" meta has been having an extreme shift in what's viable - that being melee with the rise of donkey kong.
The sudden rise of the loch and load has also been interesting and fits into the topic of this video and the most recent one, especially considering European leagues banned it near instantly.
Yeah, it got banned because people lost to it. Doesn't sound too competitive.
Same level of whining as banning people from winning against you on thursdays.
As a casual player ho is not going to play comp not because I wouldn't want to, I just can't, I ain't go time for it, but you do bring a probem I don't see most casuals acknowledging specially with pyros engies and heavies, I main heavy and people call him w+m1 though I'd sometimes remove the w as he's too slow. But while the character is very simple, he's also stupid simple to exploit like, damn, a good demoman is going to give me shit an entire match because of superior aim prediction and I'm just a big fat bulls eye. It is hard to survive as a heavy without the other specialists that one usually has in casual, in fact engie and heavy are super dependant on their team they can't do much alone and while I've been able to carry I just can't do it without a medic and a soldier/pyro at my side and a dispenser to recover, I can't get away with a lot of stuff that these faster clases can. And I do actually know how to rocket jump and strafe I've pulled some bazingas on unexpecting players as a flying heavy, yet I ain't a big dealeo without my teamo, they help me carry.
Yes heavy is stupid simple in casual, but he's stupd exploitable, even a medic can exploit a heavys weakness there's a reason why he dies all the times in the meet the shorts, hes a punching bag, and most people who play him just w+m1 and die becuase tthey had no situational awareness tsk.
At the end of the day, players should have room to be competitive in intent yeg be able to be casual in how they experiment and play the game.
5 pocket medics and 1 demoman can be interesting and funny at once as its fun in concept but taken seriously when its used without everyone yelling at you for deciding to have fun in a vidoe game even if it is compeititive too.
6s seems kinda like when you visit someone's house and there's zero clutter, every surface is perfectly sterile, the kids aren't even allowed to play with toys. All rough edges gone, only beige. Casual will always be the definitive TF2 experience.
Wow, it's almost like when you are building a competitive environment that's what you need. This statement is nonsensical.
@@Sammysapphira If the only way for a game to be competitive is to crush all variety and innovation, maybe competition isn't worth it?
@@PlatinumAltariathere is plenty of nuance/variety in 6s. Just because you cant use some unlocks doesnt mean that its boring
@@Anshhhhhhhhhk If people wanna play it or watch it that's totally fine, it's just not for me.
@@PlatinumAltaria Your idea of innovation/variety is literally just unlocks and classes. There's way more in competitive tf2 than this.
this feels like if Sam sulek was talking about TF2 competitive on his way to the local gym
would love to hear your thoughts on prolander format
If I'm going to be locked in a server for 30 minutes I don't want someone to practically be trolling. I have an expectation on what I want to experience in the game and when people start doing goofy stuff, it just isn't what I signed up for and I wish I could find other people to play with.
question, have you ever considered also releasing these videos on spotify as a podcast? id love to listen to these in the car
interesting suggestion, ive never considered it. if its convenient enough i may look into it
I wish comp was more like uncletopia and less like a high school basketball team trying to go against the NBA
I played some highlander back in The day as a sniper. Let me tell you the few times they allowed Upward to be played you as the sniper player had to be better then the other. If you where you basicly won the match.
In terms of 6s ive tried it once. Thats really about it. Most people really only.played the meta set up with small differences here and there. To me it played more like advanced MGE over actual TF2 and it kinda put me off from it
I don't play comp, but I can appreciate the nuances presented here. I generally use whatever weapon I think looks appealing and/or auditorily appealing.
Asmr rambling is the best kind of rambling
i love the way you talk. you sound like my (cooler) older cousin that got me into the game in 2014
For lower divs like open, a lot of players have a desire to shake it up by running sniper, pyro or spy. Even if they're equal skill level to their competitors there's a high chance that the strat works for a while. That team will eventually be figured out, but in the mean time the div has to play around the "pyro" or "spy" team. Rarely does that team dominate without sandbaggers though.
Middle divs end up sticking to the meta as much as possible, if not more than invite/prem players, because they're not developed enough to actually form a cohesive game plan that wont be seen as a meme. It's this group, really the largest group in all of comp tf2, that opposes off meta the most. Invite players can't complain due to the well thought out game plan of pyro to mid at that skill level. Mid level players only know that one spy open team they played a season ago as their point of reference. Resulting in them dismissing it out right because it slows the pace down at best and centralizes the game in an fun way at worse.
People enjoy the 6s meta for rocket jumping and double scout ubers for a reason. Mid level players are the least equipped to actually do well off classing and/or countering it when comes around. They no longer get the fast paced nature, and that's upsetting to most players.
And you get banned from servers if you experiment with off-classing. Weird comp scene.
honestly watching you play im happy i'm european and dont have to play against loch n load
the first 10 minutes (writing this while paused on 8:22) is the best ad to play offclass. Salty comp players who can't play against anything other than 2 sold 2 scouts medic demo teams should be punished
Im sure when casual or casual tryhards say the meta is stagnant its like making a strategy out of the composition of your team. For example having 3 soldiers and sacking everytime the game plan fully being about it. Or having a dragon fury pyro melt scouts.
Though its very sweeping it does include more strategies with more downsides and upsides.
On the game being fast paced movement oriented. What is the deal with hating stall strategies. As long as it slowly wins that works no?
Also for multiple medics how about 1 kind of medigun for each team. So only 1 uber per team
I tried getting into competitive tf2 few times, but to me that community is just filled with guys having thousands of matches played and they just don't want any change.
The amount of banned classes, items, maps, modes is so ridiculous, how can competitive gain any new players if it's so limited. Even if they're banned to make it more balanced, what's the point of it if there are no players to play the game you created?
its not balanced. The mask has been off many times, ask any 6s defender and they will throw around "yeah but this strategy isn't fun".
Imagine if footballers just whined that dribbling isn't fun. That's what 6s community is: Losers grinding specific skills nobody else finds value in.
@@benshulz4179 Using actual competitive sports is the worst possible argument because no competitive sport has completely universal rules - they will always vary by league and organization and level of play, and casual players are of course free to use or discard any of them as they please. Pro sports also change their rules and what you're allowed to do as a player all the time.
Yes, the people who actually play something are going to curate the experience to suit them when they have the ability to do. You're the only loser here for getting upset about something you don't even participate in.
@@rbfilms4752 Oh no, "pros" in a "competitive" game lost to strategy and banned it!
Well, too bad, I guess! This is apparently something that happens daily in serious competitive sports!
What circus did all of you clowns come from? You can just call it a casual gamemode if you don't care about skills. If you want it to be competitive, you wouldn't cry at skill issues this much
This is one of those things where I would prefer valve's version of competitive had it actually been developed. Having pseudo class limits where the risk is other player's angry noises is a signal that people have fragile sense of superiority.
Hey man! Nice video! You’re really popping off on these 6s videos! It’s like you’re trying to lure me back in! Nice try! Ignore all these noob 6s non believers! Rock on!
damn just posted after my lunch, but great discussion that I will not part take in since i don't play 6v6 but cool vid
You know, this video makes me wonder how the game would be if soldier and scout both had class limit 3. Are they close enough in power level that it would just allow more roster flexibility? 3 scout teams sound really unfun to play against as a 3 soldier team, so maybe only class limit 3 for soldier? Imagine playing medic vs 3 soldiers, nightmare. So like, probably not a good idea, but I am still curious.
Hey @Wild_Rumpus could you recommend any TH-camr focused on playing Scout in 6s? I really enjoy your videos and they made me want to come back to TF2. While I was never a huge fan of 6s, I thought it'd be worth giving it a shot (of course only after I touch up on my game, that is). Thanks!
j_peg and tec are both decent scouts that post on yt but i have no idea if they do tutorial stuff or just entertainment
@@Wild_Rumpus Thanks, I'll give them a watch!
has dragon's fury pyro ever been tested? it's got some pretty nasty damage if you're good with it, though i can understand not wanting to give up the mobility of a scout or soldier.
Even if it was good, it wouldn't matter. Competitive players do not want change.
Most likely you would just be a worse scout when using it
airblast is too strong
@@T-v2k where r u getting this from!
@@lamptowel I suppose the idea is to replace that irritating spammy skill vacuum with an actual damage dealing threat
You actually played well this match
Do you have a link to that Froyo v Pyro match? Haven't heard of this before and would love to see when they decided to switch off to Soldier
unfortunately i dont think it was casted and there aren't remaining stream vods but one of the players reviewed the vod here: th-cam.com/video/sriSp5zNu9I/w-d-xo.html
hey, cool vid. could you do one where you go more in detail about how the meta changes ?
Because they want to play a very specific version of TF2
NVM i found it
6:29 what game was this? sounds interesting to watch
competitive players ruin our weapons for 7 years so they dont deserve we respect those rules i will keep playing any class that isnt soldier scout demo or medic
I hate competitive tf2 being standard of the meta. TF2 should be balanced based on casual setting. Conp dudes got your own ban list, so use it.
i really appriciate u WR ur a legend in my opinion
I claim ignorance on the competitive topic
Not interested in 6s cause of 5cp
I do not have a cohesive reasoning other than I don't like 5 cp
What is the map you're playing on sir rumpus
cp_sultry, its fun!
with the class limitations in place, how confusing would it be for the enemy team if a spy disguised as their own demo or medic?
Comp would be more fun if they didn’t ban all those weapons that aren’t “meta”
your videos are comfy
you should try adding some quiet, chill music in the background of your videos
I've thought about it, i might but not sure
I think the main thing is that demo/soldier/scout all soft counter each other in different situations and are all great at helping each other out. If a soldier randomly decides to bomb, their scout teammate can instantly follow up on the space the soldier has opened up as long as theyre at least somewhat near each other. If their scout was an engie instead, they just simply can't move in fast enough to take advantage of what you have done. There's way more room for on the fly teamwork and coordination when every class in play can move quickly. Sure, there are ways to play around an engineer or a heavy, but they're much less exciting because the ideal strategy there is much more passive and less skill expressive.
Another issue is that since the offclasses are less mobile, they're also less engaging to shoot at. engie/heavy both discourage explosive jumping so they also make the other people in the game play in a way that is less exciting to shoot at. Instead of getting to airshot a soldier bombing in at you, you're spamming the soldier peeking around the corner trying to kill your engineer's sentry gun.
I still think off classes add a lot to the game by adding complexity for last pushes/defences and their ability to break stalemates, but in their current state I don't believe they would make the game more interesting if they were viable fulltime.
If your team loses to heavy, that's a skill problem, not "boring game" problem. Trying to claim every loss or stalemate is due to some nebulous "boring" factor is just weird cope for the fact that, no, you just kind of suck at the game despite playing it 6s for so long.
This is why every 6s defender starts egoposting about their hours or how others haven't played 6s, or whatever. It's not about being better than others, it's about banning everything you lose to. And if that fails - Just mention your game hours to shut down any conversation.
Also 5CP and symmetrical CTF are the only gamemodes in the game that can stalemate, nobody forces 6s players to play them.
@@benshulz4179 even if heavy had all of his unlocks unbanned, he wouldn't be hard for any decent 6s team to deal with. People just say it isn't fun because everyone has to play much more passively. Instead of having your soldiers rocket jump into the enemy medic to get the game going, you have to slowly spam the enemy heavy until he dies or is forced to give up territory. This isn't a particularly hard thing to do. Peeking around a corner to fire a rocket or two at the slowest class in the game isn't something I'd call mechanically demanding. You seem to have this conception that 6s players are bad at regular TF2, but I find that quite confusing. Pretty much everyone who plays competitively does so because they wanted something more challenging than casual tf2, so it's not like there are people who only play 6v6 and just have absolutely no idea how to play against a heavy.
Mentioning hours to show authority isn't unique to competitive players. Though I guess you can say competitive players have more hours on average so they may be more likely to do that.
5cp is one of the few stalemate prone gamemodes but it's not like it doesn't have advantages over other game modes. Other gamemodes like payload tell you when to attack or defend, but in 5cp your team needs to make a decision about how offensive or defensive they need to play.
@@capnfapn You claimed Heavy unlocks get banned for being... too easy to counter? Then nobody would play heavy, so why ban them?
Or perhaps you meant that it leads to less skill expression - Like how trimping is harder than stickbomb jumping and leads to more expression, but stickybomb launcher is not banned. So skill expression doesn't lead to things getting banned. Weird.
It's almost as if 6s ONLY bans because the players found something they didn't like to learn, like countering heavy on mid. They didn't want to learn trimping so they allowed stickybomb launcher, despite it being by design the most campy weapon in the game. But it was fun, so who cares about stuff like that, right?
Just like how some people find random crits fun. I guess if 6s community really liked them, they'd add those too. I mean, why not, it's not like there's actually some competitive thought behind the restrictions of 6s.
@@benshulz4179 "Like how trimping is harder than stickbomb jumping and leads to more expression, but stickybomb launcher is not banned. So skill expression doesn't lead to things getting banned. Weird."
ok im being trolled lol
@@capnfapn sticky jumping is easier than trimping. You dont even need any practise to do basic 5cp stickyjumps rollouts, but try to do same for trimp rollouts
Personally speaking i hated scrimming your offclass (think it was s8) team because those classes are miserable to play against and often ruin the pace of the game
Also just felt like you guys were just dicking around which is annoying even though in retrospect in seemed like a somewhat earnest attempt to push a new strategy to its limit
This may be a hot take, but in my opinion highlander is the best competitive format. And im tired of pretending its not.
Too many players for serious full-time teams to ever form. 5 players is already quite a lot, and 6s is really pushing it.
pubbies have this notion lodged in their heads that because the 6's class meta is so well-defined therefore it must be boring, rigid, repetitive etc. despite the gamemodes class meta remaining essentially unchanged since its inception the actual gamemodes meta has only become more sophisticated, comprehensive and competitive over time. why? the core 6 classes are objectively more versatile with a much heightened capacity to push the limit of play than their specialist counterparts; it will never be possible for an engineer or heavy player to achieve the same level of development and impact that is open to any of the 6's classes. there are simply more opportunities to explore ways of improving the quality of play not just on the class but also on the player and team level and it results in a far vaster potential for complexity, creativity, expression and competition. this is what makes 6's so timeless.. it's an arms-race and each opportunity has the potential to be a fresh experience. it's embarrassing when pubbies claim the gamemode to be some obsession with "DM" or some other gross reduction. sure, it's an FPS game so mechanical advantage matters greatly but they'll see a 6's match and not observe any of the extremely comprehensive process that goes into it. not the team strategizing, not the routine practice, not the theorization or experimentation. none of what the thousands of hours was actually spent on. it's like viewing a competitive game of chess without being aware of any of the required conceptualization, practice, preparation, planning and execution that goes into it. of course they won't appreciate it, they don't know any of the language. they'll sit in the respawn queue in a pub server over and over and dismiss it as not being as "tryhard" as the comp player.
This. It is always evolving, you may not see it because you don’t play the format little to none at all or try to keep up with the scene and see what is going on and what we are discussing and arguing all the time. Literally when I got into and got to know the scene “the market gardener” was the biggest discussion on weather it should be banned in the NA league, now discussing the loch n load, it’s ridiculous hearing such vitriol towards the scene about the weapon changes and “nerfing” your special weapon, we could say and spam documentaries videos over and over again to say it’s valves fault for these changes but you just don’t want to believe it cause it was “catered to the scene” valve DECIDED to do it, not us who wanted to mind our own business since launch in the tf2 community and try to get better in a deep mechanical skilled game like tf2 which has been said time and time again by every single person who love this game.
I think the issue here is that comp players wayyy bigger virgins than casuals and have different perspectives on the relative depths of each class. If you have like 1k total hours in game you're probably still getting better at classes like pyro and engie and the idea of pushing them to their limit in a competitive environment seems cool. However, if you're a 10k hour giga virgin rgl player, the idea of spending hundred of hours playing pyro to get slightly better det spam aim and reflects is almost comical. Why would you want to do that when you could put that into a class that can grow with you like soldier or scout?
@@capnfapnand that’s where the mindset comes from, it’s as simple as that and believe it or not (I’m one of those people) I don’t like that mindset at all and want the culture to change a bit cause even if you are losing to an offclass, buck up and learn why you lost and how to counter it, they will get better too but that’s the fun of it.
the closing statement seemed so confrontational and bad-faith that i just completely checked out of the idea of taking u seriously dawg lol
its this combination of tribalism and aggressive argumentation that only serves to further the divide between the two camps. why can't people just try to play nice? the whole world's gonna burn if people become even more and more people become compromise-averse
@@bethnicz "even if you are losing to an offclass, buck up and learn why you lost and how to counter it, they will get better too but that’s the fun of it."
this is the attitude people have towards offclassing as a whole in comp though. If you get rolled by a team with a full time engineer, im sure someone will be there to tease you for it if you whine about it. I think everyone agrees that if you lose to a full time pyro thats on you and your team. The issue is that usually when people are full time offclassing, its just a means of stalling out an imbalanced game.
Simpily, put, whatever doenst evolve will die off. If the comp Meta is stale then it will die and there is no doubt.
CS:GO is such a simple game but tactics and strats continued to evolve so its not just invidual player or teams getting better but the game as a whole.
Look at Soccer, the worlds biggest and most popular sport, its constantly changing and evolving at the highest level. There is always something new and rarely a dull moment wheither positive or negative.
TF2 has that chaos to evolve even without dev support but comp as a whole limits itself far too much as an overreaction to keep that comp Order from the Casual Chaos when it needs a balance of each to continue to exist as it evolves.
Comp is just trying to be fun only for rocket jumpies soldiers, no wonder it doesn't evolve. TF2 was made with 9 classes in mind, not just the 4 that 6s plays.
GO RUMPUS!
Posted as a sub-comment to that DM comment, posted again so I hope you see this.
I often think the reason TF2 6s feels alien to people is that it is the modern day Quake DM. Quake Champions, Quake Live et al would have pleased 6s crowd pretty well if it wasn't mishandled. It is like a tragedy how Quake competitve found a little home in a corner of a much more casual game to the chagrin of the larger community. EDIT: yes Quake does not have classes like TF but a TF-lite mod could serve 6s better.
please tell me ur joking because quake dm is way different
@@Anshhhhhhhhhk @Anshhhhhhhhhk How much really? How much of 6s is TF, dare I ask?
Maybe you could say with 6s getting more experimental, (Buffalo steak, gunslinger etc) more of TF2 is starting to shine through.
@@r.g.thesecondI primarily play Quake, and have played a fair of 6s, and I can tell you that they are 2 completely different games. Even 24/7 Skial RTD 2fort is closer to Quake DM then 6s is. Even competitive QWTF/TFC is blatently different. Literally the only similarity are the weapons and thats not restricted to just 6s, thats just tf2 in general
Casual players seem to love Valve when it comes to hating on 6s but then hate Valve when its relevant to themselves. Just selfish narrow minded players.
Valve didn't put any thought into many of the new items/weapons they made and put into the game. It was just like "ah this is funny just add it to the game" levels of bad balancing. It undermined the entire class balance and flow of the game. Yeah sure some unlocks are fun and don't ruin the game, they use those in 6s. The ones that ruin the pacing and fun of the game are banned, its that simple. If you want to use the wacky funny weapons Valve added just play Casual, if you want to get better at the game and understand the inherent complexity of the game play 6s.
Like the entire point of Heavy is that he's slow and tanky, and it takes time for him to do damage. That is what balances him being tanky and doing a lot of damage. But then Valve added the whip and gru and other items into the game which completely ruin the original class design.
Its kinda like if you were at a chess tournament and your opponent made up new pieces
Наоборот. Это как будто твой оппонент запрещал бы тебе играть какими то фигурами потому что они не мета
why do u heart every single comment even the awful ones lol
i love my commenters even the awful ones
@@Wild_Rumpus these recent videos have just been an insane engagement farm well played
comp is stale and lame? outrageous!
Complaining about people wanting normal meta is like complaining about turning off items in a smash tournament. Competitive environemnts have no place for random overpowered bs. Nobody wants to watch a pyro with vaccinator airblasting anyone trying to push. The "varied and unique playstles" that casuals winge about is the equivalent of picking up the auto hammer and just winning the game.
Nah it's more like complaining about picking low tiers in sabm, they serve as knowledge checks and people feel entitled to play *their* game
"we lost to that strategy, let's ban it in this serious format so we wont lose to it.
and oops, now I died to that, let's ban it too
we are competitive!!! why is everyone laughing at our format??"
6's players
TF2's comp format should have been highlander. 6s suck big time.