Was super surprised and happy to see you pop up on JRE. Congrats! As a Coloradan, I voted against the wolf proposal for exactly the points you make about the city voting for the people in the mountains who have to live and deal with the wolves. Always surprised how many Denverites never get to the mountains and don't understand what's really going on up there.
@@CliffGray free speech matters. Speak your mind. When inslee threatened to ban awb in WA, I told him straight up I'll arrest him myself and arrest any sheriff's who don't help. I called sheriff's also, and fbi, and secret service, and messaged Marshalls. I raised a storm online, and fully identified myself and my family, and I would follow it with action if inslee signed anything. So you should be able to speak your mind about wolves. I'm not tooting my horn, I'm saying, speak your mind. Or lose your right to speak it. So don't worry about being offensive about wolves.
@@jackjr1 Think of yourself as a steward of land, as a host for city families to share in the lands' vision. The problem...There are destructive forces on both sides that will render Public Land less wild. These are not amusement parks/game reserves for people, this applies to folks on both sides of this argument. Is it "wild" enough for wolves? If not, the scenario seems kind of sad. A loss to both sides.
I grew up in Colorado and as a young man, I hunted ungulates when I lived there. Not only has the human population exploded in Colorado, but the nature of those humans is decidedly much more liberal politically. As a result, habitat has been reduced substantially and the newcomer liberals do what all liberals do: namely they vote emotionally. So initiatives like wolf reintroduction are not based on sound management practices. It should also be understood by the emotionally driven CO voter that the way that wolves kill is almost always horrendously horrible for the ungulate. Wolves rarely suffocate prey; rather they rip and tear at the rear and belly of an animal and eat it alive over several minutes until death comes mercifully via blood loss. I have even heard a story of Idaho wolves that ran down a pregnant cow elk, ripped open her belly, ate just the fetus, and left the cow to bleed out. The gruesome manner in which wolves make their living is closely akin to African wild dogs and hyenas. I bet the greenies conveniently don't allow such thoughts to cross their mind when they advocate for wolves taking deer and elk. I'm coming up on retirement age and have given NO consideration to moving back to Colorado. It's governed poorly by wacko liberals and half of Denver empties into Summit County and surroundings on most weekends. Sorry, Cliff, it's gone to pot there.
I'm glad you mentioned Carrying Capacity. This isn't a concept that people are aware of unless their a biologist, or just spend A LOT of time in the mountains. Any piece of land can only support so much life. Once you exceed the carrying capacity, that's when things start dying, and your going to see alot more resource competition. Our very civilization necessitates wildlife management, because we divide and segment the land with our cities and highways, forcing wildlife to live in specific areas. They can't leave, and roam free like they used to before the westward expansion. In my personal opinion, the reintroduction of wolves is in no small part, an anti-hunting measure. As CO goes, It boils down blue state politics. Liberals HATE hunting and hunters. Even where I live in a very conservative area, there is an underlying sentiment amongst lefty's that with more wolves, they can have less hunting. It's what they want. They have this screwed up world view that there's two different worlds. The Animals world, and the human world. As if the two are completely separate and mutually exclusive. You really pick up this vibe when you read news stories about bear or cougar attacks, and they often remark how we "shouldn't be in their home" or in "their backyard". What they fail to realize is we build our homes in some of the best wintering range. We divide the land with our roads and highways. Elk were probably shitting in my living room 50 or a 100 years ago. How many elk became winter kill because of it? Everything we do effects nature, including doing nothing. The two worlds are not separate. Like it or not, we are part of the ecosystem. I have to link this video i took back in Febuary, because it perfectly illustrates my point: ( th-cam.com/video/YS0KDzEtH7o/w-d-xo.html ) This isn't an isolated incident. They have moved into town, because the carrying capacity in the mountains is next to nothing. They wouldn't be there if they didn't need to be. I have seen more elk as roadkill this year, then I can ever recall. Probably more elk have been killed on the highway, then the number of punched tags by the previous hunting year. I want to note in this video all the townhomes and condos in the background, and the construction equipment in the foreground. They're going to be laying more sewer pipe soon, Ill wager in a couple years, they'll be more townhomes where those elk are currently, and desperately trying to survive. Now, throw wolves into the mix, and I think you get the idea. You can't just turnback the clock and hope the land returns to how it was before people. We are here, and we're here to stay. Nature has struck a new balance. Wolves will throw that balance off. I've thought about making a video on this subject, but decided I didn't want the ensuing drama. The people who want to reintroduce wolves are freaking idiots.
Btw, I know you know all this, and we’re probably on the same page. Im just throwing this out for other people to read. I feel pretty strongly about the subject.
Good job bringing all this to light. I feel your pain, I'm a fourth generation Montanan and I've watched how it played out in our great state. It starts with wolf numbers growing out of hand because they have a ample supply of deer and elk which are unprepared to survive a new threat and will be annihilated or pushed into the low country (ranches and residential areas). Then the fish and game will increase tags on all the deer and elk that are causing problems. Here in MT elk are hunted from August till February in low laying ranch/residential areas. So not only is the game getting hit from the wolves in the mountains they get hammered on the ranches by hunters. The only bright side is the wolves will manage themselves (by starvation or suicide if they start killing livestock) then in ten years elk and deer numbers will rebound and they will be wiser but numbers will never be what they were before wolves. It's a crying shame, It was sportsman that made it even possible for this to happen and now they get the shaft
Thank you for this! Wolves are vicious killers…they think hunting is cruel…they’ve never seen a wolf rip apart its prey and not only for food but for sport. People who are not native to these beautiful hunting and ranching states simply do not understand. They are ignorant and cannot comprehend hunting is not animal cruelty! I live in Colorado but grew up in Wyoming and our freezer was full of wild game. That’s what we ate and my dad respected those animals and taught us to respect them too! It’s sad that people are so ignorant or it’s a chosen ignorance to the fact that their lives DO impact our ecosystem. Elk hunting will dwindle and it will cost our ranchers dearly and beef prices will rise even higher. How do you educate people who think they already know it all? Too many transplants moving to Colorado, Wyoming, Montana…not only are the wolves concerning but I think these people are the real danger to the ecosystem in these states!
@Bubby-N-Bright Wolves are misunderstood creatures, it's unfortunate most people hunt them without a soul, all animals in general. *Wolves are not vicious killers, they are cunning killers.* Hunting isn't a problem or cruelty, we as a species have no choice. So it's the manner how people hunt that pisses me off. You respect your hunt that's good, I wish more hunters were like you guys. I have friends and family who do not do the same. I know there's good people out there, obviously, but the majority and the overall senses, humans are dominators and are careless to do something about it when it gets out of hand. And they think or believe those in power will solve everything. People do not see the agenda. Sorry I'm getting off topic there, but it's another concern I'm having. Anyway, wolves, I will always skip the hunt for them. I just can't do it, there's something about them that is surreal or magical. There's a reason why we associate them as "Man's best friend". And origin story old maybe as old as the whole human history?! There's a saying to live our lives as wolves. A reminder the value and admiration of wolves' lives. There are many many many incredible heart touching stories founded when wolves meet humans! Especially the movies. Wolves in general don't attack humans, as if they know that humans aren't like them, animals. They understand a battle they can not win. And when wolves do attack humans, can I blame them. I've always associated wolves as the whispers of the forest, the animals that brings order. "Then their forest burns and a new force rises. All the wolves can do is watch. Life that was once balanced, now has bended the knee to a new order. " -The Wolf, 15th Century
Cliff also didn't talk about grazing policy on the flat tops. Many thousands of cattle and sheep graze their way through those ranges on group leases on public lands, eating large amounts of food. This also doesn't make it a natural ecosystem. There are some good things like cowboys making large water holding ponds to increase access to water over larger ranges, but also drawbacks.
Thanks Nic. At some point, I'll do a video on livestock grazing... how it affects hunting, my thoughts on it up in the national forest, etc... Nonetheless, you are correct that it does shift the ecosystem.
I live in the driest state in the Nation. There are people who want to crap all over livestock grazing in this state. I believe ranching is good for Nevada wildlife because of the water developments and hay fields that feed alot of game. Ranching isn't the problem in this state (total opinion, no science). The problem is a three pronged scurge of feral horses, poor Predator control, and drought.
Hi Cliff. Thanks for talking about this. You make good points. I'm a hunter. Love your videos, they have upped my game. I've hunted in the San Jauns for that last 20 years. I've seen wolves several times in the back basins. What about the political need not to reintroduce wolves but to allow wolves to reintroduce themselves?
Yeah, it is odd that it is even an issue with the slow trickle of wolves coming in on their own. I think it's just a political play, and as I mentioned a couple times - it's about money. The industry of "non-profits" is not in business if wolves just cruise in on their own. They need an injustice to raise money on.
@@CliffGray I agree and feel if you follow the money you will find their cause and therefore effect. Even with education on the subject it's a tough one to battle. Thanks for sharing!
I agree totally with you Cliff. A very ballsy video. I am an avid Wildlife hunter and trapper and an avid supporter of organizations supporting wildlife managemnt from a hunter and trapper's perspective.
Oh man! I was so pumped to see ya on Joe Rogan! LOVED hearing your back story as I had no idea how you got to where you were, had the skills, built a guide company and got out of finances. I am a native Western Sloper of CO and hunt the unit y’all discuss. Oh boy, it’ll be interesting to see what happens with wolfs up there. Loved your thoughts on the whole issue as metro CO folks may not fully understand or appreciate the consequences of what they voted on. Really liked the points on CPW’s wallet too as folks don’t understand how much any hunters love this state and actually provide the means to steward these lands. It’s bonkers! Hope this and other things continue to blowup your channel.
Great follow-up discussion and some excellent points here Cliff! Wolf reintroduction is definitely a hot topic for sure man. Even though wolves were reintroduced here in Idaho years back, it's still a touchy subject to many to this day. Can't think of anyone that's happy about it. The initial introduced population exploded... effecting ranchers, hunters, and of course big game populations. Elk in particular. We're fortunate to be able to hunt them (wolves) here now however... so that's a plus I guess. Not sure how much good it's done though as the wolf population just seems to keep growing and expanding their ranges. Doesn't sound like it's going to be much different over there in Colorado... except for the much more limited policies (and poor planning) that you highlighted... doesn't sound good at all! Wishing y'all the best in regard to this situation man.
hey Cliff I grew up in Colorado and moved to wyoming before the introduction of wolves to Yellowstone. I have spent the last two winters recooperating in Colorado. I know firsthand how decimated much of the game already is and have made this my Quest . You are about 97% correct on all but you need to know what I know. I think I can get My buddy Lee (attacked by a Grizzly in Wy Oct) and the Ground Zero Rancher from Walden . points--- the vote , winter summer range , predator prey relationship. predator pits , man is the predator , the attack , please contact me. I have a presentation Colorado needs to see.
Hey Cliff, Thanks for making this video. I live in Colorado and I am not a fan of the wolves being brought back in for lots of reasons and I voted against the bill here. But the one thing bringing them back could do is to remove some of the population of animals that are infected with chronic wasting. Wolves are efficient and will take the easiest prey. Hunters will avoid sick animals and leave them on the landscape. I don't think it will solve CWD, but right now in Colorado it is quickly getting out of control. Also I talked to one of the game commissioners for Colorado and the initiative that passed required them to have a plan to reintroduce the wolves. It didn't set any specific numbers. In the last few years they have been moving south from Wyoming as they expand farther from the Yellowstone Basin. The current plan is to allow them to migrate on their own.
Ben, the logic on CWD makes sense but contrary that was has been portrayed there is no real science to back up that theory. The "studies" that the pro-wolf folks have put out on wolves and CWD aren't actually studies, they are paper's that use population/predator/prey mathematical models to suggest something may occur to help the spread of CWD. They aren't actual evidence. Your info from the commissioner is probably out of date. In addition to the natural migration of wolves, CPW will be introducing additional transplants by the end of this year - that is the current plan.
Thanks Cliff for the well reasoned info. Maybe my biggest issue, along the lines of this video, is the lack of honesty from those who support wolf reintroduction. It's not science based as wildlife biologists did not support this measure, ranchers aren't actually made whole financially as depredation is only a small part of the economic loss from wolves, and finally there is no management plan that those who support reintroduction will support. Wolves are not as resilient as coyotes and they will be susceptible to environmental factors that will make the success of this project much less likely. Sadly, the population on the front range that drives the ballot biology has little to no knowledge of these issues and has even less interaction.
Great job on the discussion. I sent cpw some videos of tracks recently from your old backyard. Less than 5 miles from the lake. Hope u and the fam are great.
Once all the game is gone, then hunters won't need guns...see what they're working towards? They can always raise your taxes to make up the revenue from the tags and licensing. It's all ratcheting down, a little less freedom every year. "You'll own nothing and be happy."-Klaus Schwab
Screw the haters. Idaho failed with their wolf reintroduction and we will be following the same fate. Should have never been on a ballot in CO. And also, the majority of the voters don't even live anywhere near the introduction zones.
And what about the impact on the ranchers who use USFS land like the Uncompahgre plateau for open range grazing of cattle. I know that's outside the release area but wolves travel. Idaho is experiencing huge issues with stock stress and loss.
When I started hunting Mountain Lions because I felt they were causing a crash in the mule deer population I was totally shocked to find that lion hunters are the best protectors of mt. Lions.
Wolves are a very cool animal, and they have a place, but much like mountain lions, there's too many of them. Hunting them is fun, but realistically to successfully manage predators, you need a trapping season. I spend a lot of my winter hunting and running a trapline for them, and I can say first hand their population is growing, not shrinking
Great to hear your perspective, thanks! Agreed on trapping. Really when I refer to hunting them, I'm saying hunting/trapping. Should be more clear on that front.
@@CliffGray it's an important distinction to make I think, especially since there's states that only allow cage trapping, which excludes any sort of canine 99.999% of the time. Washington for instance is starting to have wolf problems in the northeast, but even if they open up a hunting season, it's not going to manage the population in a meaningful way, there will just be some lucky deer and elk hunters who get a wolf pelt for being in the right place at the right time. Idaho and Montana are on the right track, but we still can't trap them as fast as they breed
Growing up in Wisconsin and upper peninsula, I grew up with wolves. They are now out of control and the deer population dropped way off to an unhealthy point. Any animal should be checked and balanced by man. A great example is the seal population on the west coast. There are more seals now than most likely ever before and it’s a tremendous issue!
As a front range dweller that has identified as a hunter for about 2 weeks I find this topic pretty fascinating. One question I have is that it doesn't appear the CPW was forced to choose the areas of release that they did. Since the i70 corridor/vail pass area seems to be one of the roots of your argument against the rewilding argument why do you think CPW chose this area? What do they see that you don't or are they at fault here? Thanks for the content I think i found your channel right before the rogan interview and have been learning a lot. Interested to hear more about upcoming elk season in CO and maybe some thoughts on the recent recommendation to decrease tags this season in the north western area of the state due to winter kill. I've been eyeing up unit 14 Dangit!
Hi Sean, the reality is that most of the areas in CO suffer from the same winter range development and ecosystem issues. I just happen to know that area well and can give concrete examples of some of the more obvious obstacles in the ecosystem there.
They probably figure the wolves are going to end up there anyways due to the elk herd. Why not just start there. Other issue I’d guess they are trying to mitigate is a neighboring state/tribe getting up in a chopper and taking the wolves out the minute they cross a border… Vail area gives a little buffer on that vs other options.
Great video Cliff, you raised some interesting points that hadn’t occurred to me. I think what makes Colorado so different, and is why I oppose their presence completely, is the over development of winter range. While the overall habitat area for elk here is large, they, and the other ungulates will be funneled down into increasingly reduced areas making easy prey for the surely increasing numbers of unmanaged wolves. Mule deer populations are on the decline already. I noticed CPW is going to be reducing tag allocations due to winter kill in the very locations proposed for the wolf drop off. I think we are seeing the beginning of a really tough go at it for outfitters in those areas. I mean why book a hunt there where points will artificially go up and there is a known presence of wolves when I can hunt elsewhere? I guess that’s life, change.
My favorite part of this is that people still believe that the parks service is and has always been involved with the cult of original habitat and that's what the wolves are for. With the increased effort across the system to do things like eradicate non-native plants and reestablish animals people very naturally assume that the national parks are little slices of ecosystem that we're just trying to return to primeval condition, but that's never been the case really, especially in Yellowstone. Where it is the case it's very new. If anything you've understated how deliberately and artificially the elk were inflated.
Been a long time listener/watch Buddy! I’m proud of you! As many have stated. Good job on Rogan! Please speak on how California doesn’t offer hunting opportunities on Mountain Lions…yet they still manage them through the state…thus losing revenues from hunters not being able to draw tags. My understanding is not thorough which is why I ask! Is it really impossible for CPW to ever offer a hunting and trapping draws for wolf management? Seems silly to lose revenue in loss of tags for deer and elk being lost to wolves…in addition losing potential revenue for wolf hunting/trapping tags. There is a lot to unpack in this comment… I’ll even add 1 more “conspiratorial” touch. A gal on a recent Jordan Peterson podcast talking about the Dutch Farmers protest said…their govt is potentially trying to “control the food, so they can control the people” Seems interesting. If you reduce hunting opportunities, then the wilderness areas we all love can just turn right into these real estate developments. With no complaints. I’d love your pragmatic take!
Hey Zach, thanks for the comment and support. I do think that we will be hard-pressed to ever see a wolf hunted in Colorado. On your last point - I'm not sure an antihunting push is directly about controlling the food or food availability. However, I think it is a subset of a theme that is about pushing against anything that represents independence, self-reliance, masculinity, etc... Those have always been threats to control.
Truth. Even the old water guzzlers are no longer being maintained. Every one I see is broken unless a hunter fixes it up to make it his spot. ODFW doesn't maintained much.
You do know you will get more business from hunters wanting to see wolves. I've seen it here where I live (Okanogan-Wenatchee NF), the outfitter's clients are more and more interested in seeing wildlife and these are getting common.
I can’t believe how much information on the real impacts of wolfs compared to when we voted to reintroduce. If we can ever change the politics in Colorado back to center this state is doomed.
I watched your clip on reintroducing wolves into Yellowstone with Rogan. Joe's attitude and knowledge regarding wolves are frankly childlike. He thinks living with wolves around means you can't let your dog outside or 'it will get eaten' for example. He paints them as calculating killers that were eradicated 'for a reason' and makes it sound the ecosystem is better for their absence as it is our playground. Still 'the big bad wolf' of the dark ages I guess. I live in BC and have hunted and lived around wolves for many years. Never heard of a dog lost personally, coyotes or wolves for that matter, in rural areas. It does happen, and in urban areas with coyotes is can happen more. It isn't an issue though. Dogs getting hit by cars is an issue, not wolves. Ranchers for the most part live in harmony with wolves. I see cattle all the time where I hunt and there is a wolf pack I hear quite often. I wouldn't be surprised if there is some loss at times, but again it isn't an 'issue'. Wolves are hunted and trapped here, and they don't 'overrun' the countryside. They don't just kill big game as well. They predate on mice a lot at times as well. There 'is' a place for wolves in the ecosystem, and it 'is' better for it.When I was sitting watching the dawn creep in glassing an old cut last november and a pack of wolves started howling off in the distance the feeling I got was indescribable...in a good way.
You know how many different animals they kill in those soy bean fields to protect crops... a lot, and they won't admit to anything like that. Then they want to make wolves look like this fluffy cute animal that only eats sick or old animals. That's a joke. I have seen wolves dig out black bears in the winter and kill them or kill rabbits, mice, and deer and just leave them because they do kill a lot just for sport. I like wolves, but they 100% need to be managed!!!
There is a reason our forefathers eradicated them and every children's story from their European ranges is about their killing instinct and prowess. People have no idea what they're dealing with. They're great for Yellowstone as a control species, but they are not needed in unmanaged numbers. Plus Cliff is right- it not only costs $30k in tags based on what they eat- they make hunting harder by driving herds completely out of areas as they blow through them. So success rates drop even more. 5% of hunters will be able to work with this, but many will give up. And for every $600 out of state tag, hunters like me usually spend at least double that in state with business owners who pay taxes and make a living.
Cliff, read Cat Urbigkit’s book, “The Wolves of Yellowstone “. There were wilves all over Wyoming. Canis Lupis Irrimotus. They were mostly nocturnal, smaller and did not run in packs. I am a former guide and pacjer from Wyoming. I have seen these wolves, fiund their kills and even one one occasion, heard them howling. The introduction of a larger, alien species, caused the eradication of the resident species. It makes me sick.
The bad thing about this is the biologists knew that there was a native species of wolf in Wyoming, Idaho and Montana and they also knew what would happen when they brought in the Canadian gray wolf and did it anyway.
Thank you for speaking up on this topic Cliff. Many people like myself are against re-introducing wolves but don't have enough knowledge to effectively argue with pro wolf re-introduction people. I appreciate all the time and research you put into this video to make it easy to understand and use to better educate others who are not informed and easily persuaded to the pro wolf movement. Keep up the good work.
Remember....Wolves actually grow elk populations through vigor due to predation. It may take 20 years to balance out the predator/prey relationship but our kids may want this. Don't be afraid of some competition when hunting, it's not supposed to be easy. Seeing or even hearing a wolf/wolves in the wild is a surreal life changing moment. Respect them. Keep public lands wild. Development is our common enemy.
Thanks for speaking the truth, well explained and totally agree w you. It’s shame most of the ones who want wolves are the ones that have contributed to habitat destruction and human encroachment and totally don’t understand how to manage wildlife yet are arrogant enough to dictate and force their misconceptions onto wildlife management. It makes me sick and I’m not a even a co resident
"Native species" is such a funny term to use for Wolves in my mind. Wolves were naturally extripated before the last ice age from North America, then filtered back in fallowing human migration at the end of the ice age till the settlers removed them. So are they a native species? Are horses? Well, it all depends on what time frame you look at. Hell coyotes are entirely different now than they were before the grey wolf returned because of competition. If it weren't for grey Wolves, coyotes would be the size of grey Wolves lol.
Great factual information. I totally agree with your opinion. Sadly I don’t know if we can do anything about the path we are now on. Love your content!
anther issue with wolves being reintroduced into Colorado is ranchers and there livestock, Isn't that why they were killed off in the first place. You know what your talking about. Right on
thanks for the awsome video its really is a shame how politics is destroying are country's in alot of areas. also i would be very interested in a video describing your opinion on the winter kill and your predictions on tag allogations on deer and elk in the north western units in Colorado thanks again for all you do !!
Thank you for sharing this great information. Colorado has to many yuppies. The Skiing has taken how much land away from the Deer and Elk. You made drugs legal. God's Blessings
People don't understand the survival characteristics of the wolf, they will survive in many ways that people don't realize. Things will change when pets are killed and there many more scenarios they have not even thought of.
Wildlife populations in the US have been hunted by humans for thousands of years. Taking that hunting away from such a large area along with predator control efforts is bound to result in overpopulation. It happened with mule deer on the Kaibab of northern Arizona. What is needed is dynamic management that takes into consideration all factors biotic and abiotic. Hunting is a tool to help manage populations. Take hunting out of the toolbox and populations of predators and prey would fluctuate wildly and ultimately result in far fewer of both .
Ive heard the wolves is over exaggerated in Yellowstone on how much it help. You make good since on it! Not saying I dont love wolves and believe they are needed. The probably do help. Anyways Hi, heard you from The hunting stories podcast.
Good talk Cliff. Appreciate it much. I’ve been anti wolf since before the idea was coined/termed. I quit RMEF when they cowered and refused to fight this. Me, Jack Hume, and extremely few warned about this. Bad news is we were right.
With my research these wolves are NOT a native species, they are Canadian Grey Wolves, 15% larger than the native North American Grey Wolves so this is not a reintroduction but an introduction of an invasive species. The only interest I have in apex predators is to hunt them…and do my part in eradicating them! Great video @Cliff
Yellowstone elk population was 19000 , after two years of introduction of wolves into the Yellowstone the population of elk was 4000 . Wolves are killing machines . Wolves don't eat all they kill , they will kill to teach their young . RMEF member since 1983 .
How are you supposed to have a National Park that fits up well with a Disney movie if the Elk aren't habituated to humans? Common man! We all know disney knows how it's really supposed to work!
You do know the powers that be want to get rid of all hunting so they can control the people eventually. That's why my state reintroduced wolves and isn't letting us hunt spring bear anymore. Cliff Grey you seam so smart just like all the other channels I watch I don't get how no one can see this.
My grate grandad was a pilot involed in some of the elk transplanted to new mexico. Hay clif u probly know alot wen it comes to excotic game. That u can hunt on a draw, is there any outher places besides nm u can draw for exoicets. Maybe u could do a video on it if theres enought material for one. I know we got 4 in nm. 3 u can draw for. And u can hunt tara for free in nm.
@@whitesturgeon ya I know wasn't much for school. Preferred wild horses, hunting, and fighting, but I get by in today's world. Check out men who made this country. men like Jim bridger never could read a word much less spell one.
@@McDanielRanch haha just hacking on ya. The older I get the harder it is for me to spell things right. Not that it matters, I gotta work for a living.
I dont listen to Joe Rogan as he likes to "dance around" important topics for his ratings. I would rarher watch Cliff Grey. Cliff's mom tells him how its is! (Pemmican video)
We as people then should fulfill the jobs of the wolves, agreed? I see that introducing wolves is an anti-hunting measure and I wouldn’t support it in areas where the elk are already facing serious pressure and stress. But without us people doing the job of the wolf how else can we ensure the sick and weak elk are culled first? Without guidelines we human hunters are placing a different set of evolutionary pressure on the elk which might be harmful for them in the long term. But I don’t think wild wolves should be hunted to extinction everywhere either…surely it’s exciting to have a chance to see a wolf in the wild so I do support the establishment of wildlife sanctuaries in appropriate places likely far from human settlement.
I love wolves, but they need to be controlled. The story goes that excess elk populations changed the northern Yellowstone ecosystem. Too much grazing pressure from elk had changed the ecosystem. According to the video "Wolves Change Rivers," the wolves reduced elk numbers, allowing the willows, cottonwoods and aspens to come back along rivers, stabilizing banks. Beavers had more willows and aspens for food and they expanded in the park. Ponds and meadows were created. Moose thrived. Except that wolves ate beavers and moose. There have been no real gains by beavers or moose in Yellowstone. The truth was that most of the elk used to move out of the park in the fall and hunters (including Park Service cull operations) kept the population on a relatively even level before the wolves returned. After 1995, the elk got hammered by the wolves. The northern Yellowstone elk herd went from 20,000 to 4,000 or less. Economically, the wolf watchers haven’t replaced the economic boost supplied by the hunters. Finally, the Yellowstone wolves crashed in the mid-2010s. Wolf predation on elk calves was additive to that of grizzly and black bears. Twice, we watched grizzlies after elk calves on a 1996 Yellowstone family vacation. Elk calves became scarce and a “predator pit” situation developed where the elk numbers never got high enough to produce enough calves to fully recover from the predation. The wolves also cut into the bear spring breakfast by eating a lot of the winter kill before the bears woke up. The number of grizzly depredations on cattle away from the park shot up, as hungry bears cast about to replace elk and bison carcasses in their spring diet. Sure, the elk were “reduced,” but the Park Service began managing for an increased bison population. Why weren’t the wolves switching from elk to bison? Think about it. Bison are larger than elk and more prone to “circle the wagons” for more effective protection than trying to run, as the elk more readily do. The wolf packs don’t often tackle a healthy bull elk unless there is a situation or change that puts the odds in their favor. Too much of a chance of injury. The Park Service claims that Molly’s wolf pack has begun specializing in killing bison, but I have to wonder to what degree since their territory is doesn’t cover either of the main bison localities in Yellowstone. Maybe lone, mature bulls, but that’s not going to be a steady supply. Early naturalist science reported plains wolf skulls were slightly larger than those of woodland wolves, indicating a larger, more muscular animal. There probably needs to be some evolutionary tweaks to accommodate that switch in prey species size. Almost 30 years after the wolf reintroduction into the central Rocky Mountains, river banks in Yellowstone weren't protected and rivers didn't change. The truth is that the whole thing was a dream, a fairytale that I first saw published in National Geographic around the time of the first Yellowstone wolf releases in 1995. Pure speculation sold as planned science. The claims were made before wolves were reintroduced and the video was made before there was time for rivers to even be affected. It has been sold as science, but the fantasy never materialized. I ran across an article by an academic bison researcher. He said the elk weren't the problem on Yellowstone’s northern range..... bison were. He accused the Park Service of managing for too many bison. Now that the elk numbers were down, the Park was trying to manage for almost double the number of bison that had been previously agreed to. He said his research showed bison also suppressed river willows and young aspen. Now, a dozen years later, the Park itself showed "new" research that bison bulls pick on young aspens and cottonwoods, snapping them when they reach a certain size. Sometimes it's during the rut, but not always. In 2020, Oregon State researchers found that higher bison numbers are preventing ecosystem recovery in the Lamar Valley. They state that bison exert 10 times the environmental pressure of elk. If you've paid attention lately, beavers are the Nature’s engineers that are going to save ecosystems. Except, now a study in northern Minnesota finds that their wolves eat a lot of beavers. That is, beavers pioneering out to change ecosystems have a hard time with wolves around. They have a better chance of survival if they stay closer to the ponds. I would say that wolves impact beaver expansion, but the convoluted conclusion of the wolf study was that wolves help preserve the forest. No kidding. Saving the forest from the natural engineers that are supposedly saving ecosystems. The message by wolf researchers is that wolves are good. Beaver researchers think not so much.
You either get basic high school level ecology or you don’t. Just look at the all the commenters on CPW wolf commission meetings. It’s clearly the educated vs those who struggled to get a GED
They won't lose revenue from hunting licenses, they'll just start selling them for the plains, or places where there are no elk. Or, to add insult to injury, raise prices, again...
I get there is big business for these pro-predator 501c3's, but is there an industry that makes money off other animal populations being as large as possible??????????
Yeah, all of the hunting related businesses. Biggest difference is they don't have a centralized lobbying effort. People always mention the outfitting business as "big money" That concept makes me laugh given that I know how disorganized and fragmented that industry is.
@@CliffGray You'd know more than me, but I don't think I would call groups like RMEF "small money" and I kind of forgot what we are even talking about but I think the Ag lobby is pretty damn powerful when it comes to anti-predator sentiment.
I understand all the science conversation on this. The other thing that is lost in the conversation is the fact that we are the predator that is the top of the food chain. And we have changed the ecosystem more than wolves ever will. But we eliminated them for a reason. And I think they should stay eliminated. As a hunter and a conservationist and as someone who loves the outdoors, there is a reason we got rid of them and I think we should of stayed with that plan.
Thanks John! I just looked it up, and you’re correct. Hilarious. I had just assumed that based on the hundred+ comments I received on it that I had made a verbal flub! Haha. Now I feel like an even bigger idiot 😳! 👍hahaha
From what I’ve seen the only ppl upset with wolves in Colorado are hunters and some ranchers. The average person would love to be able to see wolf and doesn’t care if less elk tags are handed to out
It’s funny how Rogan only finds outfitters and reality show celebs when he does wolf segments, never one of the noted wolf biologists who will give facts.
![เปิดบ้าน โคตรสวย ป๋องกพล รู้จักตั้งนาน เพิ่งรู้ว่ารวย!!! l [Nickynachat]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/tmgCF_2HfYI/mqdefault.jpg)
Was super surprised and happy to see you pop up on JRE. Congrats! As a Coloradan, I voted against the wolf proposal for exactly the points you make about the city voting for the people in the mountains who have to live and deal with the wolves. Always surprised how many Denverites never get to the mountains and don't understand what's really going on up there.
thanks Jack!
@@CliffGray free speech matters. Speak your mind.
When inslee threatened to ban awb in WA, I told him straight up I'll arrest him myself and arrest any sheriff's who don't help. I called sheriff's also, and fbi, and secret service, and messaged Marshalls. I raised a storm online, and fully identified myself and my family, and I would follow it with action if inslee signed anything. So you should be able to speak your mind about wolves. I'm not tooting my horn, I'm saying, speak your mind. Or lose your right to speak it. So don't worry about being offensive about wolves.
To be fair the city folk do have some say in rural land. "This land (animals too) is our land..... this land was made for you and me"
@@twt000 not arguing the right to vote arguing the sense of it for those that aren't directly affected on a daily basis.
@@jackjr1 Think of yourself as a steward of land, as a host for city families to share in the lands' vision.
The problem...There are destructive forces on both sides that will render Public Land less wild. These are not amusement parks/game reserves for people, this applies to folks on both sides of this argument.
Is it "wild" enough for wolves? If not, the scenario seems kind of sad. A loss to both sides.
I grew up in Colorado and as a young man, I hunted ungulates when I lived there. Not only has the human population exploded in Colorado, but the nature of those humans is decidedly much more liberal politically. As a result, habitat has been reduced substantially and the newcomer liberals do what all liberals do: namely they vote emotionally. So initiatives like wolf reintroduction are not based on sound management practices.
It should also be understood by the emotionally driven CO voter that the way that wolves kill is almost always horrendously horrible for the ungulate. Wolves rarely suffocate prey; rather they rip and tear at the rear and belly of an animal and eat it alive over several minutes until death comes mercifully via blood loss. I have even heard a story of Idaho wolves that ran down a pregnant cow elk, ripped open her belly, ate just the fetus, and left the cow to bleed out. The gruesome manner in which wolves make their living is closely akin to African wild dogs and hyenas. I bet the greenies conveniently don't allow such thoughts to cross their mind when they advocate for wolves taking deer and elk.
I'm coming up on retirement age and have given NO consideration to moving back to Colorado. It's governed poorly by wacko liberals and half of Denver empties into Summit County and surroundings on most weekends. Sorry, Cliff, it's gone to pot there.
Pretty much nailed it!
I'm glad you mentioned Carrying Capacity. This isn't a concept that people are aware of unless their a biologist, or just spend A LOT of time in the mountains. Any piece of land can only support so much life. Once you exceed the carrying capacity, that's when things start dying, and your going to see alot more resource competition. Our very civilization necessitates wildlife management, because we divide and segment the land with our cities and highways, forcing wildlife to live in specific areas. They can't leave, and roam free like they used to before the westward expansion.
In my personal opinion, the reintroduction of wolves is in no small part, an anti-hunting measure. As CO goes, It boils down blue state politics. Liberals HATE hunting and hunters. Even where I live in a very conservative area, there is an underlying sentiment amongst lefty's that with more wolves, they can have less hunting. It's what they want. They have this screwed up world view that there's two different worlds. The Animals world, and the human world. As if the two are completely separate and mutually exclusive. You really pick up this vibe when you read news stories about bear or cougar attacks, and they often remark how we "shouldn't be in their home" or in "their backyard".
What they fail to realize is we build our homes in some of the best wintering range. We divide the land with our roads and highways. Elk were probably shitting in my living room 50 or a 100 years ago. How many elk became winter kill because of it? Everything we do effects nature, including doing nothing. The two worlds are not separate. Like it or not, we are part of the ecosystem.
I have to link this video i took back in Febuary, because it perfectly illustrates my point:
( th-cam.com/video/YS0KDzEtH7o/w-d-xo.html )
This isn't an isolated incident. They have moved into town, because the carrying capacity in the mountains is next to nothing. They wouldn't be there if they didn't need to be. I have seen more elk as roadkill this year, then I can ever recall. Probably more elk have been killed on the highway, then the number of punched tags by the previous hunting year. I want to note in this video all the townhomes and condos in the background, and the construction equipment in the foreground. They're going to be laying more sewer pipe soon, Ill wager in a couple years, they'll be more townhomes where those elk are currently, and desperately trying to survive.
Now, throw wolves into the mix, and I think you get the idea. You can't just turnback the clock and hope the land returns to how it was before people. We are here, and we're here to stay. Nature has struck a new balance. Wolves will throw that balance off. I've thought about making a video on this subject, but decided I didn't want the ensuing drama.
The people who want to reintroduce wolves are freaking idiots.
Btw, I know you know all this, and we’re probably on the same page. Im just throwing this out for other people to read. I feel pretty strongly about the subject.
tons of great points here, that I'm with you on!
Very well said
My favorite argument for libs is grizzly bears once lived in San Francisco. So we should reintroduce them there
hahahha agreed!
Good job bringing all this to light. I feel your pain, I'm a fourth generation Montanan and I've watched how it played out in our great state. It starts with wolf numbers growing out of hand because they have a ample supply of deer and elk which are unprepared to survive a new threat and will be annihilated or pushed into the low country (ranches and residential areas). Then the fish and game will increase tags on all the deer and elk that are causing problems. Here in MT elk are hunted from August till February in low laying ranch/residential areas. So not only is the game getting hit from the wolves in the mountains they get hammered on the ranches by hunters. The only bright side is the wolves will manage themselves (by starvation or suicide if they start killing livestock) then in ten years elk and deer numbers will rebound and they will be wiser but numbers will never be what they were before wolves. It's a crying shame, It was sportsman that made it even possible for this to happen and now they get the shaft
Thank you for this! Wolves are vicious killers…they think hunting is cruel…they’ve never seen a wolf rip apart its prey and not only for food but for sport. People who are not native to these beautiful hunting and ranching states simply do not understand. They are ignorant and cannot comprehend hunting is not animal cruelty! I live in Colorado but grew up in Wyoming and our freezer was full of wild game. That’s what we ate and my dad respected those animals and taught us to respect them too! It’s sad that people are so ignorant or it’s a chosen ignorance to the fact that their lives DO impact our ecosystem. Elk hunting will dwindle and it will cost our ranchers dearly and beef prices will rise even higher. How do you educate people who think they already know it all? Too many transplants moving to Colorado, Wyoming, Montana…not only are the wolves concerning but I think these people are the real danger to the ecosystem in these states!
@Bubby-N-Bright Wolves are misunderstood creatures, it's unfortunate most people hunt them without a soul, all animals in general. *Wolves are not vicious killers, they are cunning killers.*
Hunting isn't a problem or cruelty, we as a species have no choice. So it's the manner how people hunt that pisses me off.
You respect your hunt that's good, I wish more hunters were like you guys. I have friends and family who do not do the same. I know there's good people out there, obviously, but the majority and the overall senses, humans are dominators and are careless to do something about it when it gets out of hand. And they think or believe those in power will solve everything. People do not see the agenda.
Sorry I'm getting off topic there, but it's another concern I'm having.
Anyway, wolves, I will always skip the hunt for them. I just can't do it, there's something about them that is surreal or magical. There's a reason why we associate them as "Man's best friend". And origin story old maybe as old as the whole human history?!
There's a saying to live our lives as wolves. A reminder the value and admiration of wolves' lives. There are many many many incredible heart touching stories founded when wolves meet humans! Especially the movies.
Wolves in general don't attack humans, as if they know that humans aren't like them, animals. They understand a battle they can not win. And when wolves do attack humans, can I blame them.
I've always associated wolves as the whispers of the forest, the animals that brings order.
"Then their forest burns and a new force rises. All the wolves can do is watch. Life that was once balanced, now has bended the knee to a new order. "
-The Wolf, 15th Century
The 30000 per wolf is just the direct loss of tags. Doesnt include the loss of revenue from what the hunters spend in gas, food, lodging, guides,etc.
Cliff, I find the idea of introducing wolves in Colorado a bad idea. You just solidified my thoughts. Thanks
Thanks for speaking out on this Cliff!
It's cool you were on JRS.
thanks James
Cliff also didn't talk about grazing policy on the flat tops. Many thousands of cattle and sheep graze their way through those ranges on group leases on public lands, eating large amounts of food. This also doesn't make it a natural ecosystem. There are some good things like cowboys making large water holding ponds to increase access to water over larger ranges, but also drawbacks.
Thanks Nic. At some point, I'll do a video on livestock grazing... how it affects hunting, my thoughts on it up in the national forest, etc... Nonetheless, you are correct that it does shift the ecosystem.
I live in the driest state in the Nation. There are people who want to crap all over livestock grazing in this state. I believe ranching is good for Nevada wildlife because of the water developments and hay fields that feed alot of game. Ranching isn't the problem in this state (total opinion, no science). The problem is a three pronged scurge of feral horses, poor Predator control, and drought.
We have a saying here in Wisconsin..Preserve Wolves, Can'em!!!!
The real reason is Colorado ultimately wants to get rid of hunting
Truth
If they are adding wolves they want wolves to do the hunting.
Cliff, I'm proud to have you on our team. You present both conservation and our value as humans also on the landscape. Thank you
Way to state the facts with no bull crap!! Thanks for what you do Cliff!!
Thanks man!
I'm currently reading American Wolf. What are some other resources to read about this?
Thanks Cliff. I have thought this and it seems so obvious. I don't know how people honestly deny it.
Hi Cliff. Thanks for talking about this. You make good points. I'm a hunter. Love your videos, they have upped my game. I've hunted in the San Jauns for that last 20 years. I've seen wolves several times in the back basins. What about the political need not to reintroduce wolves but to allow wolves to reintroduce themselves?
Yeah, it is odd that it is even an issue with the slow trickle of wolves coming in on their own. I think it's just a political play, and as I mentioned a couple times - it's about money. The industry of "non-profits" is not in business if wolves just cruise in on their own. They need an injustice to raise money on.
@@CliffGray I agree and feel if you follow the money you will find their cause and therefore effect. Even with education on the subject it's a tough one to battle. Thanks for sharing!
@@bryanb5413 👍
I agree totally with you Cliff. A very ballsy video. I am an avid Wildlife hunter and trapper and an avid supporter of organizations supporting wildlife managemnt from a hunter and trapper's perspective.
thanks Jerry!
Can we get Grizzlys re-introduced into California?
For sure! That would be a good ballot initiative. Golden Gate Park first transplants
Only if they’re woke.
Oh man! I was so pumped to see ya on Joe Rogan! LOVED hearing your back story as I had no idea how you got to where you were, had the skills, built a guide company and got out of finances.
I am a native Western Sloper of CO and hunt the unit y’all discuss. Oh boy, it’ll be interesting to see what happens with wolfs up there.
Loved your thoughts on the whole issue as metro CO folks may not fully understand or appreciate the consequences of what they voted on.
Really liked the points on CPW’s wallet too as folks don’t understand how much any hunters love this state and actually provide the means to steward these lands. It’s bonkers!
Hope this and other things continue to blowup your channel.
Really appreciate the support man! thanks
West slope for life!!!
I was stoked for you to be on Rogan. Well deserved to get that audience
Thanks Josh!
Great follow-up discussion and some excellent points here Cliff! Wolf reintroduction is definitely a hot topic for sure man. Even though wolves were reintroduced here in Idaho years back, it's still a touchy subject to many to this day. Can't think of anyone that's happy about it. The initial introduced population exploded... effecting ranchers, hunters, and of course big game populations. Elk in particular. We're fortunate to be able to hunt them (wolves) here now however... so that's a plus I guess. Not sure how much good it's done though as the wolf population just seems to keep growing and expanding their ranges. Doesn't sound like it's going to be much different over there in Colorado... except for the much more limited policies (and poor planning) that you highlighted... doesn't sound good at all! Wishing y'all the best in regard to this situation man.
hey Cliff I grew up in Colorado and moved to wyoming before the introduction of wolves to Yellowstone. I have spent the last two winters recooperating in Colorado. I know firsthand how decimated much of the game already is and have made this my Quest . You are about 97% correct on all but you need to know what I know. I think I can get My buddy Lee (attacked by a Grizzly in Wy Oct) and the Ground Zero Rancher from Walden .
points--- the vote , winter summer range , predator prey relationship. predator pits , man is the predator , the attack , please contact me. I have a presentation Colorado needs to see.
Hey Cliff,
Thanks for making this video.
I live in Colorado and I am not a fan of the wolves being brought back in for lots of reasons and I voted against the bill here. But the one thing bringing them back could do is to remove some of the population of animals that are infected with chronic wasting. Wolves are efficient and will take the easiest prey. Hunters will avoid sick animals and leave them on the landscape. I don't think it will solve CWD, but right now in Colorado it is quickly getting out of control.
Also I talked to one of the game commissioners for Colorado and the initiative that passed required them to have a plan to reintroduce the wolves. It didn't set any specific numbers. In the last few years they have been moving south from Wyoming as they expand farther from the Yellowstone Basin. The current plan is to allow them to migrate on their own.
Ben, the logic on CWD makes sense but contrary that was has been portrayed there is no real science to back up that theory. The "studies" that the pro-wolf folks have put out on wolves and CWD aren't actually studies, they are paper's that use population/predator/prey mathematical models to suggest something may occur to help the spread of CWD. They aren't actual evidence.
Your info from the commissioner is probably out of date. In addition to the natural migration of wolves, CPW will be introducing additional transplants by the end of this year - that is the current plan.
Thanks Cliff for the well reasoned info. Maybe my biggest issue, along the lines of this video, is the lack of honesty from those who support wolf reintroduction. It's not science based as wildlife biologists did not support this measure, ranchers aren't actually made whole financially as depredation is only a small part of the economic loss from wolves, and finally there is no management plan that those who support reintroduction will support.
Wolves are not as resilient as coyotes and they will be susceptible to environmental factors that will make the success of this project much less likely. Sadly, the population on the front range that drives the ballot biology has little to no knowledge of these issues and has even less interaction.
Agreed. Thanks Tony
100% agree, not to mention ranchers
Dude, I’m so pumped you got on Rogan! I’ve been a fan of your channel since you had about 5k subs. Cool to see you on JRE!
Thanks Justin!
Man I don't remember you guys watching that video idk how I missed it. Gunna half to rewatch.
god reason to watch it another round! ahhahaha
Great job on the discussion. I sent cpw some videos of tracks recently from your old backyard. Less than 5 miles from the lake. Hope u and the fam are great.
Thanks Derrick. Hope you guys are well.
Once all the game is gone, then hunters won't need guns...see what they're working towards? They can always raise your taxes to make up the revenue from the tags and licensing. It's all ratcheting down, a little less freedom every year.
"You'll own nothing and be happy."-Klaus Schwab
Screw the haters. Idaho failed with their wolf reintroduction and we will be following the same fate. Should have never been on a ballot in CO. And also, the majority of the voters don't even live anywhere near the introduction zones.
And what about the impact on the ranchers who use USFS land like the Uncompahgre plateau for open range grazing of cattle. I know that's outside the release area but wolves travel. Idaho is experiencing huge issues with stock stress and loss.
we talk about it some in the podcast. It's going to be an issue.
When I started hunting Mountain Lions because I felt they were causing a crash in the mule deer population I was totally shocked to find that lion hunters are the best protectors of mt. Lions.
Wolves are a very cool animal, and they have a place, but much like mountain lions, there's too many of them. Hunting them is fun, but realistically to successfully manage predators, you need a trapping season. I spend a lot of my winter hunting and running a trapline for them, and I can say first hand their population is growing, not shrinking
Great to hear your perspective, thanks! Agreed on trapping. Really when I refer to hunting them, I'm saying hunting/trapping. Should be more clear on that front.
@@CliffGray it's an important distinction to make I think, especially since there's states that only allow cage trapping, which excludes any sort of canine 99.999% of the time. Washington for instance is starting to have wolf problems in the northeast, but even if they open up a hunting season, it's not going to manage the population in a meaningful way, there will just be some lucky deer and elk hunters who get a wolf pelt for being in the right place at the right time. Idaho and Montana are on the right track, but we still can't trap them as fast as they breed
@@Northwoods208 I hear ya
Growing up in Wisconsin and upper peninsula, I grew up with wolves. They are now out of control and the deer population dropped way off to an unhealthy point.
Any animal should be checked and balanced by man.
A great example is the seal population on the west coast. There are more seals now than most likely ever before and it’s a tremendous issue!
As a front range dweller that has identified as a hunter for about 2 weeks I find this topic pretty fascinating. One question I have is that it doesn't appear the CPW was forced to choose the areas of release that they did. Since the i70 corridor/vail pass area seems to be one of the roots of your argument against the rewilding argument why do you think CPW chose this area? What do they see that you don't or are they at fault here? Thanks for the content I think i found your channel right before the rogan interview and have been learning a lot. Interested to hear more about upcoming elk season in CO and maybe some thoughts on the recent recommendation to decrease tags this season in the north western area of the state due to winter kill. I've been eyeing up unit 14 Dangit!
Hi Sean, the reality is that most of the areas in CO suffer from the same winter range development and ecosystem issues. I just happen to know that area well and can give concrete examples of some of the more obvious obstacles in the ecosystem there.
They probably figure the wolves are going to end up there anyways due to the elk herd. Why not just start there. Other issue I’d guess they are trying to mitigate is a neighboring state/tribe getting up in a chopper and taking the wolves out the minute they cross a border… Vail area gives a little buffer on that vs other options.
Yeah it’s a shame this wasn’t brought up on JRE.
Great video Cliff, you raised some interesting points that hadn’t occurred to me. I think what makes Colorado so different, and is why I oppose their presence completely, is the over development of winter range. While the overall habitat area for elk here is large, they, and the other ungulates will be funneled down into increasingly reduced areas making easy prey for the surely increasing numbers of unmanaged wolves. Mule deer populations are on the decline already. I noticed CPW is going to be reducing tag allocations due to winter kill in the very locations proposed for the wolf drop off. I think we are seeing the beginning of a really tough go at it for outfitters in those areas. I mean why book a hunt there where points will artificially go up and there is a known presence of wolves when I can hunt elsewhere? I guess that’s life, change.
some great additional points Levon. Thanks
My favorite part of this is that people still believe that the parks service is and has always been involved with the cult of original habitat and that's what the wolves are for. With the increased effort across the system to do things like eradicate non-native plants and reestablish animals people very naturally assume that the national parks are little slices of ecosystem that we're just trying to return to primeval condition, but that's never been the case really, especially in Yellowstone. Where it is the case it's very new. If anything you've understated how deliberately and artificially the elk were inflated.
Been a long time listener/watch Buddy! I’m proud of you!
As many have stated. Good job on Rogan!
Please speak on how California doesn’t offer hunting opportunities on Mountain Lions…yet they still manage them through the state…thus losing revenues from hunters not being able to draw tags.
My understanding is not thorough which is why I ask!
Is it really impossible for CPW to ever offer a hunting and trapping draws for wolf management? Seems silly to lose revenue in loss of tags for deer and elk being lost to wolves…in addition losing potential revenue for wolf hunting/trapping tags.
There is a lot to unpack in this comment…
I’ll even add 1 more “conspiratorial” touch.
A gal on a recent Jordan Peterson podcast talking about the Dutch Farmers protest said…their govt is potentially trying to “control the food, so they can control the people”
Seems interesting. If you reduce hunting opportunities, then the wilderness areas we all love can just turn right into these real estate developments. With no complaints.
I’d love your pragmatic take!
Hey Zach, thanks for the comment and support.
I do think that we will be hard-pressed to ever see a wolf hunted in Colorado.
On your last point - I'm not sure an antihunting push is directly about controlling the food or food availability. However, I think it is a subset of a theme that is about pushing against anything that represents independence, self-reliance, masculinity, etc... Those have always been threats to control.
11 yrs archery elk hunting in Colorado and I’ve never spoken to or even seen a fish cop in the woods
Great video. Keep it up
thanks Joe
Truth. Even the old water guzzlers are no longer being maintained. Every one I see is broken unless a hunter fixes it up to make it his spot. ODFW doesn't maintained much.
Didn't realize you were on Rogan so congrats. Great video, super informative. Thanks for sharing!
You do know you will get more business from hunters wanting to see wolves. I've seen it here where I live (Okanogan-Wenatchee NF), the outfitter's clients are more and more interested in seeing wildlife and these are getting common.
I can’t believe how much information on the real impacts of wolfs compared to when we voted to reintroduce. If we can ever change the politics in Colorado back to center this state is doomed.
I watched your clip on reintroducing wolves into Yellowstone with Rogan. Joe's attitude and knowledge regarding wolves are frankly childlike. He thinks living with wolves around means you can't let your dog outside or 'it will get eaten' for example. He paints them as calculating killers that were eradicated 'for a reason' and makes it sound the ecosystem is better for their absence as it is our playground. Still 'the big bad wolf' of the dark ages I guess. I live in BC and have hunted and lived around wolves for many years. Never heard of a dog lost personally, coyotes or wolves for that matter, in rural areas. It does happen, and in urban areas with coyotes is can happen more. It isn't an issue though. Dogs getting hit by cars is an issue, not wolves. Ranchers for the most part live in harmony with wolves. I see cattle all the time where I hunt and there is a wolf pack I hear quite often. I wouldn't be surprised if there is some loss at times, but again it isn't an 'issue'. Wolves are hunted and trapped here, and they don't 'overrun' the countryside. They don't just kill big game as well. They predate on mice a lot at times as well. There 'is' a place for wolves in the ecosystem, and it 'is' better for it.When I was sitting watching the dawn creep in glassing an old cut last november and a pack of wolves started howling off in the distance the feeling I got was indescribable...in a good way.
Amazing points and information
Thanks Jaron!
You know how many different animals they kill in those soy bean fields to protect crops... a lot, and they won't admit to anything like that. Then they want to make wolves look like this fluffy cute animal that only eats sick or old animals. That's a joke. I have seen wolves dig out black bears in the winter and kill them or kill rabbits, mice, and deer and just leave them because they do kill a lot just for sport. I like wolves, but they 100% need to be managed!!!
There is a reason our forefathers eradicated them and every children's story from their European ranges is about their killing instinct and prowess. People have no idea what they're dealing with. They're great for Yellowstone as a control species, but they are not needed in unmanaged numbers. Plus Cliff is right- it not only costs $30k in tags based on what they eat- they make hunting harder by driving herds completely out of areas as they blow through them. So success rates drop even more. 5% of hunters will be able to work with this, but many will give up. And for every $600 out of state tag, hunters like me usually spend at least double that in state with business owners who pay taxes and make a living.
Absolutely spot on!
Cliff, read Cat Urbigkit’s book, “The Wolves of Yellowstone “. There were wilves all over Wyoming. Canis Lupis Irrimotus. They were mostly nocturnal, smaller and did not run in packs. I am a former guide and pacjer from Wyoming. I have seen these wolves, fiund their kills and even one one occasion, heard them howling. The introduction of a larger, alien species, caused the eradication of the resident species. It makes me sick.
I’ll check it out 👍
The bad thing about this is the biologists knew that there was a native species of wolf in Wyoming, Idaho and Montana and they also knew what would happen when they brought in the Canadian gray wolf and did it anyway.
Good stuff, Cliff. Thank you for sharing and clarifying the truth.
thanks Joe!
Can we get another ballot measure to remove or suppress wolves from CO? Why not do what Tim Ferris did?
I don’t see why not. Only limitation is money.
Great insights! Thanks for speaking on this
Truth is in the middle wolves are good in moderation. Wolves save human lives and do alot of good but numbers need to be kept in check by hunters.
Thank you for speaking up on this topic Cliff. Many people like myself are against re-introducing wolves but don't have enough knowledge to effectively argue with pro wolf re-introduction people. I appreciate all the time and research you put into this video to make it easy to understand and use to better educate others who are not informed and easily persuaded to the pro wolf movement. Keep up the good work.
Dude, Joe has such a large audience that you are going to get a wide range of reactions.
This is Great. And I agree 100%! However, the question is, what can we do Now, since it’s already passed?
Remember....Wolves actually grow elk populations through vigor due to predation. It may take 20 years to balance out the predator/prey relationship but our kids may want this.
Don't be afraid of some competition when hunting, it's not supposed to be easy. Seeing or even hearing a wolf/wolves in the wild is a surreal life changing moment. Respect them. Keep public lands wild. Development is our common enemy.
Denver city people decided they know how to manage wildlife better than the experts.🙄
excellent video man! well said 👏
Appreciate it! 👍
Do the Grizzly Bear next
Thanks for speaking the truth, well explained and totally agree w you. It’s shame most of the ones who want wolves are the ones that have contributed to habitat destruction and human encroachment and totally don’t understand how to manage wildlife yet are arrogant enough to dictate and force their misconceptions onto wildlife management. It makes me sick and I’m not a even a co resident
Thanks Bobby!
They'll sell more tags knowing humans won't be finding deer or elk.
How big of an industry is hunting? - exactly, massive - store bought trophy shooters are all upset - not me - otherwise love your vids
"Native species" is such a funny term to use for Wolves in my mind. Wolves were naturally extripated before the last ice age from North America, then filtered back in fallowing human migration at the end of the ice age till the settlers removed them. So are they a native species? Are horses? Well, it all depends on what time frame you look at. Hell coyotes are entirely different now than they were before the grey wolf returned because of competition. If it weren't for grey Wolves, coyotes would be the size of grey Wolves lol.
Great factual information. I totally agree with your opinion. Sadly I don’t know if we can do anything about the path we are now on. Love your content!
I don't want wolves on my property and they will not survive if I find any there.
anther issue with wolves being reintroduced into Colorado is ranchers and there livestock, Isn't that why they were killed off in the first place. You know what your talking about. Right on
thanks for the awsome video its really is a shame how politics is destroying are country's in alot of areas. also i would be very interested in a video describing your opinion on the winter kill and your predictions on tag allogations on deer and elk in the north western units in Colorado thanks again for all you do !!
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Thank you for sharing this great information. Colorado has to many yuppies. The Skiing has taken how much land away from the Deer and Elk. You made drugs legal.
God's Blessings
Californians are invading everywhere. Bringing they're singlemindedness with them. Things must be changed to their way.
Nat park service needs a 70% decrease in budget
We have elk in Nebraska now lol
People don't understand the survival characteristics of the wolf, they will survive in many ways that people don't realize. Things will change when pets are killed and there many more scenarios they have not even thought of.
Love the honesty cliff! I Agree 💯%
Wildlife populations in the US have been hunted by humans for thousands of years. Taking that hunting away from such a large area along with predator control efforts is bound to result in overpopulation. It happened with mule deer on the Kaibab of northern Arizona. What is needed is dynamic management that takes into consideration all factors biotic and abiotic. Hunting is a tool to help manage populations. Take hunting out of the toolbox and populations of predators and prey would fluctuate wildly and ultimately result in far fewer of both .
Ive heard the wolves is over exaggerated in Yellowstone on how much it help. You make good since on it! Not saying I dont love wolves and believe they are needed. The probably do help. Anyways Hi, heard you from The hunting stories podcast.
Good talk Cliff. Appreciate it much. I’ve been anti wolf since before the idea was coined/termed. I quit RMEF when they cowered and refused to fight this. Me, Jack Hume, and extremely few warned about this. Bad news is we were right.
thanks Cory!
With my research these wolves are NOT a native species, they are Canadian Grey Wolves, 15% larger than the native North American Grey Wolves so this is not a reintroduction but an introduction of an invasive species. The only interest I have in apex predators is to hunt them…and do my part in eradicating them! Great video @Cliff
Yellowstone elk population was 19000 , after two years of introduction of wolves into the Yellowstone the population of elk was 4000 . Wolves are killing machines . Wolves don't eat all they kill , they will kill to teach their young . RMEF member since 1983 .
How are you supposed to have a National Park that fits up well with a Disney movie if the Elk aren't habituated to humans? Common man! We all know disney knows how it's really supposed to work!
You do know the powers that be want to get rid of all hunting so they can control the people eventually. That's why my state reintroduced wolves and isn't letting us hunt spring bear anymore. Cliff Grey you seam so smart just like all the other channels I watch I don't get how no one can see this.
There is probably some truth to that. I use to doubt it, but it seems more that way everyday.
My grate grandad was a pilot involed in some of the elk transplanted to new mexico. Hay clif u probly know alot wen it comes to excotic game. That u can hunt on a draw, is there any outher places besides nm u can draw for exoicets. Maybe u could do a video on it if theres enought material for one. I know we got 4 in nm. 3 u can draw for. And u can hunt tara for free in nm.
huked awn fawnix?
@@whitesturgeon ya I know wasn't much for school. Preferred wild horses, hunting, and fighting, but I get by in today's world. Check out men who made this country. men like Jim bridger never could read a word much less spell one.
@@McDanielRanch haha just hacking on ya. The older I get the harder it is for me to spell things right. Not that it matters, I gotta work for a living.
they will make sure they get wolves in ever state they want, by trapping problem wolves and tranplanting them like they have into and around oregon
Agreed 100% !!!
Wolves are destroying Northern mn
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I dont listen to Joe Rogan as he likes to "dance around" important topics for his ratings. I would rarher watch Cliff Grey. Cliff's mom tells him how its is! (Pemmican video)
Haha! 👍👊
What does he dance arround?🤔 he seems pretty balanced
We as people then should fulfill the jobs of the wolves, agreed? I see that introducing wolves is an anti-hunting measure and I wouldn’t support it in areas where the elk are already facing serious pressure and stress.
But without us people doing the job of the wolf how else can we ensure the sick and weak elk are culled first? Without guidelines we human hunters are placing a different set of evolutionary pressure on the elk which might be harmful for them in the long term.
But I don’t think wild wolves should be hunted to extinction everywhere either…surely it’s exciting to have a chance to see a wolf in the wild so I do support the establishment of wildlife sanctuaries in appropriate places likely far from human settlement.
I love wolves, but they need to be controlled. The story goes that excess elk populations changed the northern Yellowstone ecosystem. Too much grazing pressure from elk had changed the ecosystem. According to the video "Wolves Change Rivers," the wolves reduced elk numbers, allowing the willows, cottonwoods and aspens to come back along rivers, stabilizing banks. Beavers had more willows and aspens for food and they expanded in the park. Ponds and meadows were created. Moose thrived. Except that wolves ate beavers and moose. There have been no real gains by beavers or moose in Yellowstone.
The truth was that most of the elk used to move out of the park in the fall and hunters (including Park Service cull operations) kept the population on a relatively even level before the wolves returned. After 1995, the elk got hammered by the wolves. The northern Yellowstone elk herd went from 20,000 to 4,000 or less. Economically, the wolf watchers haven’t replaced the economic boost supplied by the hunters.
Finally, the Yellowstone wolves crashed in the mid-2010s.
Wolf predation on elk calves was additive to that of grizzly and black bears. Twice, we watched grizzlies after elk calves on a 1996 Yellowstone family vacation.
Elk calves became scarce and a “predator pit” situation developed where the elk numbers never got high enough to produce enough calves to fully recover from the predation.
The wolves also cut into the bear spring breakfast by eating a lot of the winter kill before the bears woke up. The number of grizzly depredations on cattle away from the park shot up, as hungry bears cast about to replace elk and bison carcasses in their spring diet.
Sure, the elk were “reduced,” but the Park Service began managing for an increased bison population. Why weren’t the wolves switching from elk to bison? Think about it. Bison are larger than elk and more prone to “circle the wagons” for more effective protection than trying to run, as the elk more readily do. The wolf packs don’t often tackle a healthy bull elk unless there is a situation or change that puts the odds in their favor. Too much of a chance of injury. The Park Service claims that Molly’s wolf pack has begun specializing in killing bison, but I have to wonder to what degree since their territory is doesn’t cover either of the main bison localities in Yellowstone. Maybe lone, mature bulls, but that’s not going to be a steady supply. Early naturalist science reported plains wolf skulls were slightly larger than those of woodland wolves, indicating a larger, more muscular animal. There probably needs to be some evolutionary tweaks to accommodate that switch in prey species size.
Almost 30 years after the wolf reintroduction into the central Rocky Mountains, river banks in Yellowstone weren't protected and rivers didn't change. The truth is that the whole thing was a dream, a fairytale that I first saw published in National Geographic around the time of the first Yellowstone wolf releases in 1995. Pure speculation sold as planned science. The claims were made before wolves were reintroduced and the video was made before there was time for rivers to even be affected. It has been sold as science, but the fantasy never materialized.
I ran across an article by an academic bison researcher. He said the elk weren't the problem on Yellowstone’s northern range..... bison were. He accused the Park Service of managing for too many bison. Now that the elk numbers were down, the Park was trying to manage for almost double the number of bison that had been previously agreed to. He said his research showed bison also suppressed river willows and young aspen. Now, a dozen years later, the Park itself showed "new" research that bison bulls pick on young aspens and cottonwoods, snapping them when they reach a certain size. Sometimes it's during the rut, but not always. In 2020, Oregon State researchers found that higher bison numbers are preventing ecosystem recovery in the Lamar Valley. They state that bison exert 10 times the environmental pressure of elk.
If you've paid attention lately, beavers are the Nature’s engineers that are going to save ecosystems.
Except, now a study in northern Minnesota finds that their wolves eat a lot of beavers. That is, beavers pioneering out to change ecosystems have a hard time with wolves around. They have a better chance of survival if they stay closer to the ponds.
I would say that wolves impact beaver expansion, but the convoluted conclusion of the wolf study was that wolves help preserve the forest. No kidding. Saving the forest from the natural engineers that are supposedly saving ecosystems. The message by wolf researchers is that wolves are good. Beaver researchers think not so much.
Maybe just maybe some in charge of this will heed..
Got to do it. I would rather see wolves in cages, then kids in cages waiting at bus stops.
Ok... wolf reinduction... with all their winning arguments.... I say ok.... let's bring back Grizzly Bear to Colorado.... are we having fun now ?
Turn them loose in Vail first
What about Wooley mammoths?
You either get basic high school level ecology or you don’t. Just look at the all the commenters on CPW wolf commission meetings. It’s clearly the educated vs those who struggled to get a GED
They won't lose revenue from hunting licenses, they'll just start selling them for the plains, or places where there are no elk. Or, to add insult to injury, raise prices, again...
I get there is big business for these pro-predator 501c3's, but is there an industry that makes money off other animal populations being as large as possible??????????
Yeah, all of the hunting related businesses. Biggest difference is they don't have a centralized lobbying effort. People always mention the outfitting business as "big money" That concept makes me laugh given that I know how disorganized and fragmented that industry is.
@@CliffGray You'd know more than me, but I don't think I would call groups like RMEF "small money" and I kind of forgot what we are even talking about but I think the Ag lobby is pretty damn powerful when it comes to anti-predator sentiment.
I understand all the science conversation on this. The other thing that is lost in the conversation is the fact that we are the predator that is the top of the food chain. And we have changed the ecosystem more than wolves ever will. But we eliminated them for a reason. And I think they should stay eliminated. As a hunter and a conservationist and as someone who loves the outdoors, there is a reason we got rid of them and I think we should of stayed with that plan.
Bold , bald and bare face lie are all correct and mean different things
Thanks John! I just looked it up, and you’re correct. Hilarious. I had just assumed that based on the hundred+ comments I received on it that I had made a verbal flub! Haha. Now I feel like an even bigger idiot 😳! 👍hahaha
I like all your content and have learned from your videos. Even though I am 56 yo I am a better hunter because of a few of your vids. Thanks
@@melvinalvey great to hear. Thanks John
From what I’ve seen the only ppl upset with wolves in Colorado are hunters and some ranchers. The average person would love to be able to see wolf and doesn’t care if less elk tags are handed to out
It’s funny how Rogan only finds outfitters and reality show celebs when he does wolf segments, never one of the noted wolf biologists who will give facts.
Welcome to our world, you shouldn't be surprised, you live in a very liberal state, I'm surprised it took this long
i hear ya