I tend to only listen to this album as a whole, and while I don’t anticipate that fundamentally improving anything for you, it does give some more time to settle into the album before reaching this point. Also makes the final acoustic guitar bit make sense, as it’s a reprise of the opening bit of track 1.
This is my favorite band, so hats off to you for taking on this beast. Cassandra is TMV at their most excessive, for better and worse, but I love it. All the dissonance, wackiness, and noise works for me, but I totally understand it's not for everyone. This song reminds me of an extended Led Zeppelin live jam if they were trying to summon demons in a Mexican desert. It'd be awesome to see your reaction to some of their recent live shows. The latest tour shows how much they've matured and tightened up their sound even on older, crazier songs.
All of the criticism you have of the music is exactly why I love it. Those parts that you don't see them as fitting, I see them as accents. I just don't hear the abrasiveness.
I love it too, it's a jumble but in the best way. Kinda think some parts are there to throw people off, induce that fever dream kind of state. Hit both sides of the listeners brain at once and see how they take it Edit: I've listened to this song many many times and it still gets me, that's music baby!
Because there is no abrasiveness to hear. Regarding the apparently constant need for cohesion: you realize this is explicitly experimental and consciously intended to be a 'prog epic' on steroids... The reaction does not situate the song within the context of the broader album, which is where it gets much of its meaning and coherence from. This is a concept album, there are musical and lyrical themes repeated throughout, which in isolation may appear random and chaotic, but in the totality of the album, make perfect sense. Frankly, this was a shallow reaction and analysis, which in my opinion reflects a lack of understanding of progressive rock, the intentions behind this album, and the context of the song within the album.
It's violent at times - ever since I first heard it, the only image in my mind was like - something being brutally slaughtered, the sax being its screaming as everything just gets soaked with delay and reverb.
for anyone who really loves sax like that please look into kaoru abe aswell as james chance & the contortions, they both use solos like that all the time
Love it or hate it, I think this is definitely TMV's masterpiece. It's certainly them in their peak "violently manic psychedelic prog" mode and was really them pushing their singular style as far as it could possibly go. Like many such uber-ambitious pieces it can easily come off as too indulgent and just too much, in general, for many; and TMV definitely scaled things back a lot after this, with each release after this becoming more accessible (though Amputechture was still quite ambitious in parts). They never went "mainstream accessibility" exactly, but they never produced anything as challenging as this track again, or this album in general. This will always be my favorite from them, perhaps just because I listened to it non-stop for a while after it was released because it blew my mind. While I enjoyed much of their material after I was never as enthused as I was with this Frances the Mute (and Deloused in the Comatorium) era material. I can definitely see you enjoying their later material more, but this is what made so many (including myself) fall in love with them. BTW, the ending of this track loops back around to the beginning of the album (Cygnus...Vismund Cygnus). The album is a concept album, though woe be to the person who tries to make narrative sense out of the lyrics!
For funsies my cousin created a 2 hour PowerPoint presentation breaking down the entire storyline of this album including the "Frances the Mute" song and the music video for "The Widow". He had a lot of time on his hands and was obsessed with this album at the time.
I am not sure I concur that Bedlam was anything but a dive headfirst into the conceptual. In a way its everything I wanted them to do. Taking their excesses and making them a part of the narrative with the "cursed album" concept
This is the blended experience of fever dream meeting a circus meeting an asylum party. Welcome to the TMV soundscape! Honestly, when I first came across them TMV really interested me but I didn't love it. Then I got accidentally exceptionally high one night and this whole album happened to play. And my relationship with the band was transformed and transcended. Its hard to explain why but over time I've figured out what it is. First, you have to get a bit disassociated and track different instruments as if they are totally different conversations happening at a party. Second, the space between the sounds and the ever evolving dynamic between them is extremely hidden and I've only ever really been able to understand it when the music feels slowed down and can hear it all better in a very high state of mind.
Your point of tracking the different instruments actually makes a lot of sense. When this album was being recorded, Omar had everyone play their parts without ever hearing any of the others. Each instrument is its own solo performance.
This is the most intense piece of music I've heard. I am not sure how much of it one can appreciate without losing at leas 2 kilos during the listen. 😅
the sax at 30:16 is just...violent. Like, the imagery in my head is like an animal being slaughtered - not killed, just slaughtered and it just builds a kind of tension I don't feel in any other track and it just leads into that release and crescendo. Cassandra Gemini is just...a ride.
Truly a masterpiece! I’m not a big fan of the extended “freak-out” section near the end. It just went on too long with Omar just noodling around with his effects pedals. But other than that, I consider it their greatest, most ambitious Masterpiece!!
Cassandra Gemini is literally a piece of art lol. This whole song and album are truly flawless, and when it came out was considered a 5-star album by critics, and for good reason. I'm not telling you you're wrong, but.... idk.
Idk if anyone else has played MGS 2 but that voice effect that Cedric uses around the 2:50 mark reminds me so much of the Colonel winging out in Arsenal Gear. Not to mention the flutes and stuff behind it sound like the music playing on arsenal. Its crazy. Wonder if they were influenced by that at all lol
"I hear it's amazing when the famous purple stuffed worm in flap-jaw space with the tuning fork does a raw blink on Hari Kiri Rock. I need scissors! 61!"
Hey Bryan, thanks so much for checking this out, I know it went over the time limit and you aren't really a fan of The Mars Volta (or this era of TMV at least) but it was really interesting and entertaining hearing your take on it. Not sure why I had a sliver of hope you might like this one despite the other tracks you've heard lol, but I completely understand where you are coming from and its always great hearing your analysis even if I don't always agree.
To be fair, I greatly enjoyed the hook more than anything else I've heard from there. There's definitely some aspect to TMV that I really enjoy and I keep seeing recommendations for some of their other, less abrasive albums. If anything this suggestion has made me more interested in them than before.
@@CriticalReactions Whole Frances The Mute album tells the story about the certain family and it's quite long and complicated so I won't even try summarizing it here, however if I remember correctly that loop was a sign that this story will happen again and it will keep happening whenever and wherever. Frances The Mute lore is easily googleable. Though trigger warning: r*pe and m*rder
@@CriticalReactions It's a story about the cycle of revenge and the systemic abuse of organized religion, that's why it loops. Sarcophagi starts the album to warn the listener about cygnus fate and the seeds of his rage, then the album explodes and finishes on the same passage, but it feels defeated, as revenge was pointless and Cygnus fury dissipates, described in the sound of the kettle cooling off under the guitar.
@@CriticalReactionsthe album is partially about cycles of trauma. The intro/outro also is referred to as "sarcophagi" where the main character starts in utero (a kind of sarcophagus?) and then dies at the end (definitely a sarcophagus) so that return makes sense. Also the word "sarcophagi" means flesh-eaters in greek, which probably also refers to the villains of the story who are only within the narrative at the very beginning (doing villain stuff) and at the very end (being confronted by the narrator) so returning to their leit motif makes sense in that regard as well. I think your *musical* analysis about the abrasiveness of some sections of the album is indisputable. But from an artistic standpoint, we, the listener, *must* be abraded because the narrative that goes beneath the story demands those abrasions...as it were. I think listening to a TMV track purely as music is actually missing a good deal of the point, and why their more recent albums haven't done as well--because there isn't a central narrative that the listener can hang their hat on to get through the abrasive parts by saying, "okay, this part here represents a baby screaming and so it makes sense that it's an obnoxious wail" or "this part here is a guitar impression of an ambulence siren so it makes sense that it sounds like THAT." I think if you were to come at Mars Volta albums from a perspective of A) narrative and B) impressionism more broadly, you might consider them slightly differently.
Agreeed about Take the Veil Cerpin Taxt. Phenomenal track that displays what they do best at their highest level and I would also say generally most cohesive.
I would consider myself musically attuned, but I seriously could not explain to you why I love this track so much, but I do It wasn't even a grower either, it was something that clicked immediately the first time I heard it (though I had already heard TMV before), and it's in my regular rotation and something I listen to casually a loooot, I do dooze off a little during the jam section bit since it's a lot less structurally interesting than the other sections but everything else is RIGHT up my alley
the loud-quiet-loud dynamic applied to texture and melody. chaos adding meaning to the cohesive bits. abrasion and dissonance adding additional beauty to whatever is not. finding solid ground in the chaos, the drums and bass often keeping things together, and omar eventually landing on a string of notes that most would consider "musical". these things are half the fun one of the few bands that actively remind me music is an art form and not just a technical craft.
I vaguely remember my first listens to this album back in the day. The whole thing was just some random themes here and there surrounded by a lot of noise and ambience. Very hard to orient yourself in. However it grew on me with a LOT of listens. It was helpful to already be a fan because of their previous, arguably more digestible, album. As a musician myself, I feel like I can connect with some of what this is coming from. At times when I've been working for a long time with compositions or arrangements I can kind of get fed up with... well, assonance. Clean chords and melodies. That's where this type of chaos becomes refreshing to my ears, almost cleansing. I believe that Omar did a Miles Davis thing here, where he told musicians to go into the studio and play their asses off without hearing any of the music they were going to be a part of. It makes sense when you listen to what the instruments are doing. For me the piece is super intense for a long time in the beginning of the track so the "jam that trails off" almost lets you rest for a bit before they kick it up again. It IS actually a bit lyrically connected, since they're describing a state of mind that is turbulent but also delirious and likely ridden with more than one substance. So the struggle for cohesion is like a struggle to find focus and to get a grip of reality. That's of course just my interpretation. I see that others in this comment section have given some insight as to what the story is so I'm not going to bother with that. Oh, and the acoustic guitar + vocals outro is more like an outro to the whole album, since that is the exact way the first track begins. Anyways, creds for your patience with this weird track!
I might be wrong but I think a lot of Omars song writing comes from his love of film and the film making process. He has mentioned before movies really inspire him and he has also tried his hand at making film himself. I can see this song describing scenes out of a movie and all the the different parts describing things playing out in the film.
keep in mind this is a concept album too. i absolutely love the weird little out of tune yelps etc. lol. i also used to feel the same about how there are certain parts that really ruin the overall sound i was enjoying, but over time i have become so acclimated to their sound that i absolutely love those little, weird parts & everything else is kinda boring unless i listen to a complete variety of music. they've been my fav band since i was 18. i'm now 35. lol. they also helped me learn to recognize specific instruments in music, whereas before i would hear everything lumped together. now i can hear each instrument individually. pretty tight
As always, wonderful reaction and analysis... I could recommend you to check on YT some videos that speak about this album concept, the music functions in order to a story, the Cygnus Vismund story, this piece was the pinnacle of the hole tale, and every moment has a meaning. Yeah, it's kind of complex that there is a soundtrack to a story that is not like "well written" but that you can do your own interpretation. This final piece was Cygnus vengance and demise, that's all I can say.
Omar Rodriguez-Lopez's uncompromising musical vision is both exhilarating and awesome to witness but also frustrating and challenging at times, lol. That's why they are The Mars Volta, for better or worse. I have like a 25% success rate trying to get friends and family members into this band. But they are in my top 3 favorite bands of all time. Wild.
What I am hearing is that 'Miranda that ghost just isnt holy anymore' would be your favorite track off this album (and thats very ok, its very beautiful)
The very end of that (that seemed to come out of left field) is a reprise of the opening moments of the album. It makes a lot more sense in context of the whole album than it does with that song in isolation, bookends the album nicely. As many times as I’ve listened to this album, it still threw me listening to this track in isolation with you, lol.
one of the best prog songs ever made along with : close to the edge (yes), thick as a brick (jethro tull) , salisbury (uriah heap) , april (deep purple) and invitation to a river (bill chase)
Mid 2000s or maybe later, I remember an interview where they said they like their music to reflect films that they were fans of. They liked having 'scenes' that didnt make sense or made you uncomfortable the way a film might. That always stuck with me
That makes so much sense because everytime I listen to Frances (especially the widow and Cassandra) the imagery is definitely in the art style of sin City.
I think the excess dissonance is a poetic choice. Like, you aren’t allowed to have just the good. It has to be drenched in all the ugliness, because that’s just life. Or at least, how these artists saw life at this point.
I actually really enjoyed this. I have only heard a few TMV songs and they bounced off me, but there is something about this song that I really liked. I assumed this is from a concept album that I might download and listen to as a whole. Also, it is my experience with this style of music that it can take some time to grow on me. Sometimes a first listen is not enough to appreciate everything that is going on and why.
You should listen to Frances the Mute (the album this is from) if you haven’t already. It is indeed a concept album with some exceptionally dark themes if you go looking into it. The story was actually based off of a diary a late member of the band discovered in the back of a car while working as a repo man. The diary was strange and the band suspected the writer might be schizophrenic as it told a surreal story of the narrator learning he was adopted and seeking out his biological family. The names of the songs on the record are based on the names of different people written about in the diary.
I mean, the descending synth line around 15:00 seems to me to be a counterpoint to the building tension of the rest of the arrangement. Cedric's voice getting more and more insistent and frantic, the horns losing cohesion, the guitar jumping in to shriek a bit and if I'm not mistaken, each cycle of the synths start at a higher point before their descent. Or that may be arpeggiated, I'm not sure
The way you react to their music is the way I react to your TMV reactions. 60% loving it because it looks like you're going to like the song, but then you pair it up with not liking the rest and makes me half not enjoy the review! The like/not-like tension is real! Cheers man! :D
I give you so much props dude. I totally get why some people just can’t dig the Volta, despite my love for them. But you give them an honest try every time
I find your reactions to my two favorite bands, Porcupine Tree and The Mars Volta, utterly fascinating. You’re typically very enamored with Porcupine Tree/Steven Wilson’s ability to communicate stories and emotions woven flawlessly together, able to follow any potential digressions or embellishments by identifying clear motifs and thru lines and seeing how they shift and evolve, whereas your reactions to TMV are always more conflicted. The cacophony that arises from Omar’s production and composition style always presents roadblocks despite them also channeling a lot of narrative and atmospheric elements through progressive music. On the face of it, they’re both 2000s prog acts with elements of other alternative genres fused together, but The Mars Volta, even though they’re perhaps arguably one of the most stylistically eclectic rock bands ever, stick to a solid template within their music and usually you can find what makes a given song unique or communicative in how each song differs from their own formula, whereas PT, a more ‘in their lane’ band, go for a variety of moods, energies, and general sense of dynamics on a song to song basis, even though they have a comparatively limited toolkit. If you break them down, it’s like The Mara Volta do a sort of free form sculpting for their music, whereas Porcupine Tree meticulously build from disparate parts with a very specific set of instructions- if any of that makes sense. You’re one of the few people who, no matter how you feel about a given compositional choice, I always take something valuable away from your insights and find out way more about music I really love. Thanks for giving these a shot! I think you might actually end up being a much bigger fan of The Mars Volta’s later era stuff, ironically the stuff the fans are far less hot on, because it sees them honing their craft into something a little more pointed and less amorphous.
It was only a matter of time! Honestly it's pretty crazy that both Mars Volta and La Dispute, two very different bands, are both favorites of mine and you have heavily reviewed their work.
I've also decided I would never want to have your musical ear/mind. I want the ignorance of thinking this song is as cool as I did when I first heard it at 16.
TBF this song is still very cool and I would love to hear the thoughts of someone who is musically attuned who loves this track. Not everyone who can listen to music critically has the same tastes, after all.
Respect for your commitment! One of my all time favorite bands, this is my favorite track of my favorite album. Cool to hear someone who doesn't like it, but truly understands music and can explain why in a respectful manner.
You say you're biased, I'd say that you're just more conservative in you preferences. There are things here going on that make first listen just extremely exhausting and I have a feeling you expect everything to make sense on the go. But some of it does only when you approach this song over and over again and catch the flow of those seemingly chaotic and dissonant elements in a wider perspective. Some of it is easier to accept if you consider, that this band emerged from At the Drive-in, a post-hardcore project that was way louder and more uncompromising in their expression. The whole idea behind this music is kind of impossible, because it blends progressive and psychedelic with hardcore and punk, and those are simply two opposite things if you look at popular music history. Somehow they are able to connect those two traditions. There's noise influence there, there's Latino music component as well... Really a lot to unpack, and we didn't really even mentioned cryptic lyrics and themes they're dealing with yet. Does it all change anything? No, you don't have to like it, dissonant and abrasive sounds are not for everyone and that's absolutely fine. Sometimes all those background (or not-so-background) noises make more sense if you really treat this music as psychedelic in the first place, by which I mean you trip to it. And boy, what a trip it is. But I enjoyed this album and song for years (and still, I noticed a nice detail i bass that I never payed attention to before, while watching your reaction) without this perspective, so I guess it all comes down to your taste and aesthetic preferences at the end of the day. Thanks for listening and analysis anyway, it's always fun to watch and hear your observations :)
Maybe I should've add, cause it seems important somehow - I truly believe this whole album is a masterpiece. It's perfect and I wouldn't change a single note in it. The only thing I regret is that record label allegedly didn't accept it to be longer, so they had to cut out title track "Frances the Mute", that was supposed to start the whole thing. I imagine you'd absolutely hate that one hahaha. There are not many records that I consider to be 10 out of 10. I'm awfully picky when it comes to music. I have enough musical education to understand many things going on, but definitely not all of it. That being said - the size of this thing, the nerve required to create such a thing, the imagination of those people, the amount of layers, the fact that it's a music close to impossible to wear off no matter how much you listen to it, the emotional expression maintained in spite of pedantic attention to detail - it all just blows my mind. Mars Volta has it's own category in music. I believe even they are not able to re-create any of those early achievements in their discography, and even if they tried - it would be pointless, because it's already done, there are other things and places to explore. I'm not a believer, I'm rarely really sure of anything, but if you call this statement a devotion, so be it, I can live with that.
Despite my overall negative experience with the track there's still a lot that I enjoyed here and I'm 100% certain the entire album improves with repeat listens. One of my top 3 albums of all times bounced off of me the first time I heard it so I'm not discounting this album at all. It's very possible that more context and a better understanding of how this fits into the evolution of musical trends would help me appreciate it more. As you stated, it has a ton of influences and many are not easily combined together.
what I do love about this track is that despite being 32 minutes long, it never really gets boring. Yes the jam section in the middle is about 7 minutes long, but compared to the rest it's really not that out of the ordinary lengthwise. Just look at the booklet of the album, they barely fit all of the lyrics to this lol. 43:40 I think the thing with Mars Volta is that their albums are more structured like a movie rather than an album. 45:30 Their sound designer Jeremy Ward, while working as a cars salesman found a diary of an adopted person trying to find their biological mother on the back of an old car and he could really relate to that cause afaik he was adopted too. The album is only losely based on that though, as the story revolves about Cygnus trying to find the people who r*** and killed his mother Frances. L'via, Widow and Miranda are all people he met along the way.
I really love your opinions cuz it's it's like reality punching fans in the stomach. The Mars Volta never do anything randomly, and you will never understand the composing without understanding the message. I am a guy who rates pink floyd's dark side of the moon 2nd, guess who's the first...yep. This is a movie, Frances the Mute is a movie, sorry, but you will never understand the composing earing tracks isolated. For example, L'via L'Viaquez, you told it was creepy. It was supposed to be because it was an ode to a death woman, and the latin section meant to represent a regression to the main carachter's past. It's a classic Frederico Fellini theme. Cassandra gemini: first of all, Cassandra. Cassandra was an oracle who was damned by the god Apollo to never be believed again because she rejected him. Cassandra in gemini is also an astronomical occurance. Cassandra gemini apoints to bipolarity of the main caracther, Cassandra is in fact a female alter ego full of rage and murderours revenge. Now the strange screams Cedric does. If you take a closer look he his imitating crows, owls and chickens (or gallos con dentes de machete). They all represent certain group of people the main carachter put in "little boxes". The final section of the song, sarcophagii, represents death, you also heard it on Cygnus...Vismund Cygnus. Also 26 is repeated thowards the song: "I think I've become one of the others...25 wifes e the lake tonight" 25 +1 = 26. 26 represents death. I am talking too much, sorry ahah. FOR A TOTAL DIFFERENT MARS VOLTA: Last 2 albuns. Fans, let's ask for Luciforms, luciforms, luciforms....
I'm currently struggling to add dynamic sunset shadowing to a Cedric portrait, but the right (visually left) side of him only. A tasteful approach is risky. Easy to mess it up.
I think that was a new record for puzzled head shakes. 😕 I personally love this track. Sure it does meander around with a lot of various sounds and change-ups, but I really don't find anything downright abrasive.
This is one of my favorite songs of all time, and this analysis is my favorite that I've seen on here. I deeply appreciate the honesty in your takes on this band's music.
There is so amazing parts in this song. This originally was not going to be an LP, it was just an experimental album, and this song was split into 5 songs. Someone released the whole album online with this song as 1 instead of 5 parts. It maybe my favorite album from them.
You're the man for committing to this one! It's not exactly a banger all the way through, but man it has some amazing sections. If you still want to hear more I recommend "Take the Veil Cerpin Taxt".
Interesting fact about the performances, for this and almost all of the TMV albums: the composer would force each musician to record their parts individually, WITHOUT HEARING THE OTHER INSTRUMENTS. One man's crazy dream.
I think this album is unsettling both intentionally and subconsciously from the band’s side. It deals with loss and tragedy they really experienced at the time. The story is inspired by an anonymous diary Jeremy Ward (friend of the band) found while repossessing a car. He realized he has much in common with the person who wrote it, they were both adopted and looking for their biological parents. From what I know, many people interpret the details of the story on the album differently, but basically it’s about a man (Vismund Cygnus) that finds out he was adpoted after his mother was killed. She was likely a nun raped by a priest and when she tried to abort the baby, the church forced her to keep it and killed her after giving birth. Her mother and sister had to flee and live in hiding. Cassandra Gemini is probably about him processing the story (maybe that’s why it goes back and forth), and him deciding to burn the church while everyone inside. Then killing himself afterwards, joining his mother. Jeremy Ward died from heroin overdose about a month before the release of their debut De-Loused in the Comatorium (that deals with loss of another friend). Allegedly that inspired Omar and Cedric to kick their own addictions. I didn’t think about this album as being abrasive when I first heard it, or maybe I didn’t mind at the time because I needed it. I thought of it more as creepy. I think I was drawn to it because it’s just so emotionaly charged and heartbreaking, even though I didn't know about the story back then. Lyrically, it deals with tragedy and suicide, and It gave me some kind of validation and outlet for my anger and frustration (but maybe also amplified it though). To this day some of the lyrics are the most existential ones to me. I don’t mind the little disorienting details, for me they’re the part of the concept and add to the atmosphere and uniqueness of it. Thanks for the reaction and for giving it a chance. :)
Totally get this criticism. Few people I show this to like it bc it’s just too out there and chaotic. Full of dissonance, etc. But it’s part of the experience to be this chaotic, intense often disorienting spooky rock in roll opera. I mean it’s jazz it’s balls out rock it’s the weaving between life and death, things uniting and things being ripped apart. It’s one of my favorite albums ever bc I like weird and I like to rock and hearing this album is a one of a kind experience. But yes, it’s ugly and grating at times. I get that.
I remember hearing this album originally and thinking it was just noise. While I don’t have the musical language or understanding of theory of what’s going on, it sounds more musical to me. After listening to much more “noisey” and abrasive “music” this is much more digestible to me. Tbh, I didn’t listen to the entire song but skipped to your comments. The comparison to HTS to TMV makes sense to me sonically. The core of HTS- vocals, melodic lines, drumming- all sound like a less spastic TMV (their older stuff imo sounds a bit more like TMV but is still a bit more controlled and melodic). I don’t know the history of TMV, but I’m assuming there’s a reason to their “noisey” approach to music. I’m curious what your line is for “noise” vs “music”? I imagine it’s difficult to define in a YT comment, but maybe some musical examples?? Thanks as always Bryan!
I didn't intend to use the word noise as much as I did in this video because it carries negative connotations with it. In this case, noise is a type of music that purposefully, and on as many characteristics as possible, pushing against the other concepts surrounding it. For instance there are quite a sections where the lead vocals, a rhythm guitar, the bass, and the drums will be playing something rather palatable and then a sax or flute or lead guitar will start playing something that is rhythmically, harmonically, and sonically different; almost as if it were from a different song. If I ever get the thought "wait, do I have another tab running audio" then that's noisy music to me. It's not bad and it's certainly not "not music" but it's not my cup of tea.
I've said it before, but considering you liked (or at least somewhat enjoyed) the newer stuff, you might actually dig their last album. Maybe even the more down to Earth approach from Ochtaedron and (up to a point) Noctourniquet. Frances is probably their most inaccesible stuff and it's crazy how it's what you've been mostly exposed. Don't get me wrong, I'm among the poeple that loves this album, but it's clear it's not something you'd like by now. And it's not all this band has to offer. I'd even say you'd probably dig the tracks you haven't listened to more than the three you had so far because even with the weird ambient sections and abrasive nature, both are kind of ballads and way more palatable for me most part. Great insight as always, even if I don't agree with the overall sentiment, I can undestrand why you feel frustrated with this.
Is the new one decent? I heard the first single and it was bit too jazzy for me. Love most of their albums but could only handle a couple songs on noctourniquet.
@@printsignalsoma1248 Personally I really like it, but it's pretty poppy and a bit yacht rock even. My favourites are Frances and Ochtaedron for different reasons, the last one feels like the pop songwriting from that album's most focused moments with the electronic sheen of Noctourniquet, so keep that in mind.
I don't think I actively love Mars Volta, but the unifying thread that keeps me coming back to a couple of their songs is how strong their choruses are. Such strong vocal melodies and harmonies paired with violent guitars going all out on the riffage - it really wakes you up after a couple minutes of instrumental wankery. And yet I don't think the choruses would *feel* as strong if we didn't have to suffer through the other bits. Cassandra Gemini *rarely* goes on my rotation because "the other bits" constitutes 25 minutes of fluff ranging from decent to pain-inducing, but there's no doubt that final chorus gets me just as excited as you did when it finally comes back around. Talk about a build up. Cygnus... Vismund Cygnus' chorus is better though.
Mars Volta deeply changed what do I like about music, an acquired tasted really hard to find elsewhere. Recently had a similar experience with the music of Oxbow. With me at the beginning being on the side of "what is this noise?".
Normally I don't really care for prog rock, but this chaotic jazziness (or is it their hardcore background) gives the music, of an otherwise pretty self-indulgent genre, a nice shot up the arm. This is one of the few prog rock bands I really like, together with King Crimson, Cardiacs and Mahavishnu Orchestra I guess.
I went back and forth with TMV. Always loved them but there was a time when i didn't like how sloppy some playing and arrangements were. Now i love all of it even after learning jazz guitar.
When you touch on the things that don't fit musically within each track, I have an idea why that might be. From what I can gather, this 32min song is a story of a woman that went literally insane once she found out she was the result of adultery, and then proceeds to start murdering adulterers. There's a palpable sense of unease and chaotic emotional undertones the whole way through this, and from a storytelling standpoint it makes sense. "25 wives in the lake tonight" - 25 victims from her rampage "The icepick's cummin' on the marble shrine" - she used an icepick 27:50 - 30:45 to me sounds like a murder being committed, it's so out of place and sounds "wrong". The sax solo around 30:20 sounds like somebody screaming.
Enjoyed watching this reaction and review. The theme of the album is centered around a journal the band found. The journal detailed an adopted person's journey to find their parents. The dissonance and lack of cohesion certainly reflects that. The Mars Volta is also chaotic generally for what that's worth.
That final acoustic part is meant to be a revisitation to the beginning of first track, Cygnus...Vismund Cygnus which begins with that track. In this way, the album begins where it ends.
Hey Bryan, what you call "just noice" in here is NOT just noise but music (noisy music that might annoy you to bits perhaps, but still music☝️)😁 You're probably right that TMV don't care what critics think but (possibly partly because of just that) they were something of the critics darlings in Sweden at least. The same critics who never had a good word to say about prog otherwise (and subsequently never called TMV prog in their reviews...) I think one can also see much of that "jam band section" as a jazz/fusion. Jazz is typically much about improvised soloing over repeated foundation(s). I don't particularly enjoy all of theese solos but the section is as much without direction as most jazz (though more in the vein of free jazz in some of the solo work - but that's just the choice of the soloists and not a definer of what kind of music it is...) For the second time today you manage to (patiently) do a good reaction & analysis for a song you didn't enjoy overall. Bravo!
I was probably a bit cynical when I used the word noise to describe the more abrasive additions to some of the sections but it's the closest word I have for what they were doing. It's definitely music but I hear a lot of it as "sounds purposefully chosen to be as dissonant (harmonically, rhythmically, spatially) from the other sounds in the section". This is a good reminder that I need to expand my vocabulary when talking about musical ideas like this though. I totally agree with your free jazz comparison. That style loves to meander and do not much and it's one of the styles of jazz that tends to bounce off of me, which I don't think is a coincidence. When Jazz week comes up I'm definitely looking forward to more traditional jazz than the experimental, avant-garde, or free variants. 😅
I've seen a few of your Mars Volta reactions. Kudos for sticking with it despite not really digging a fair amount of what you've heard. You might like some stuff off their first album Deloused In The Comatorium. More direct, less fluff. Imagine all the punchy choruses and hooks, but without the extended proggy jams.
I haven't written them off entirely. I usually find something of interest in their music that I've been exposed to and I've been told that they have far less experimental sounds. I look forward to digging into Deloused one day.
@@CriticalReactions Yeah there's obviously something you like about them or you wouldn't still be reacting to their material. It's clear from your reactions which bits really resonate with you and which don't, which I fully understand. Frances is a dense and at times self-indulgent album. It's really not the best introduction for new listeners, despite being a fan favourite.
I'd love to see a compare and contrast between The Mars Volta and At the Drive-In (The lead singer and lead guitarists band from the 90s, resurrected in the late early 2020's or late 10's) God I love seeing reactions to music I love.
i always interpreted chaotic TMV as: "if you endure, you'll be rewarded". same to me as to endure screamo or growl: I HATE IT. but some bands are instrumentally/compositionally worth the pain
31:08 before this omar brings you into a nest of chaos that youre rightfully critical of, and its all so you desire this moment so much, then theyre back in orbit at 32:07
This was certainly one of my more frustrating listens. 😂 So many parts that were just on the cusp of finally connecting with me but just barely missed it. I should give it another shot one day though since it's been a while.
This is my all time favorite band, but it has taken many multiple listens for me to fully appreciate everything about the style of composition. For me, it's the album Deloused In The Comatorium that really shines the brightest. Once you have the time changes committed to memory and you can slap your hands along to the entire album and know all the changes, it just feels amazing. Its now deeply stamped on my emotional consciousness, and there is no going back.
Thanks to talk about this piece AND band ITS so difficult we cover us to true genious, no understand Many things in those compositions...because our level of critic no compares with Mars Volta like to say us .. but there Is not other musika like them Great marvel in this fucking world
The Beatles had the White Album and Mars Volta have the White Noise Album. The only thing i have against the noise prog is that the banging title track was left off this album cos it wouldn't fit the CD length.
You are not TMV’s target audience. Your reaction is to me what their music is to you. Negative, negative, meh, negative, love, like, wtf, negative, negative.
Someone may have mentioned this, but Omar purposefully had some members play parts without knowledge of the other concurrent players' parts. Might explain why all but one instrument seems in sync thematically with the others. This practice seems to be a Herbie Hancock inspiration.
I understand your frustrations but I feel you need to hear the album as a whole and not separate songs. When I hear the Mars Volta , it's usually the whole album beginning to end. My opinion....
That's totally fair. I've now heard every track from this album in isolation with plenty of time between them. Maybe just sitting down and taking it all in at once is the key. Mind you, I don't think that's gonna work for me but I'm willing to give it a try with an open mind.
i really wish he’d listen to something off of Noctourniquet. specifically The Malkin Jewel or Empty Vessels, some less proggy stuff but still amazing music (my favorite album of theirs)
Also, i just heard your comment about Hail the Sun. So, i checked them out, and i think i have an understanding here. It seems you enjoy modern metal type sound and production. Which is very much the opposite of the Mars Volta, who took much of their inspiration from improv jazz.
Omar loves to revel in atmospheric dissonance. It's def a love it or hate it thing. One of his biggest influences is Siouxsie & The Banshees, whom also heavily use atmospheric dissonance. When I first listened to this album when it came it I hated it & made fun of friends who made me listen to it. But I found the drums, bass, & horns stuck in my head, kept listening and ended up becoming a mega fan, seeing them in concert 3 times lol.
When you just finished the song but you still have to do an analysis: I'm tired, boss. Haha. Love this song. Some sections feel to me like they are pushing my head under the water. And when a less chaotic part comes I can finally breathe. Tension and release I guess.
I knew a year ago that you wouldn't enjoy this, in part because I don't really like it either despite being a TMV fan myself. I agree with the reasons you stated about the long jam section in the second half- it's too long and droning for me. I can't make it all the way through the song even though I go in knowing how long it is because by the time we hit that 15 minute mark, it feels like it's been the full 30 minutes because of how relentless it is. By the time the song is over, it feels like I've been listening for an hour. Like you said, I do find myself occasionally listening to the first half and enjoying it, but then moving on because the second half just isn't worth it to me. On the note of the songs you haven't heard from this album, I think you would legitimately enjoy Miranda. It's the song right before this one. The only problem with that one is it, like the rest of the songs on the album, has a long ambient section (the first 3:30 or so) that I just have to skip to get into the actual music.
Omar playing guitar with Omar One though that has always come to mind when thinking of Frances the Mute as a hole. It is that disfunctional apartment complex you walk through and you get to hear all the noises good and bad. It is the muk of life.
This is one of my all time favorite songs. There is so much groove it's ridiculous. Get some good shrooms and and pair of noise canceling headphones and blast off. Mars Volta is like Pink Floyd just free based an 8 ball.
Everything about this piece blows my mind every time I listen to it 🎉. It puts me in a great mood and energized for the day. I, too, hated them for at least a year when I first heard them in the early days. But now they have grown into one of my top listens, Ever. And I still can't get enough.
I tend to only listen to this album as a whole, and while I don’t anticipate that fundamentally improving anything for you, it does give some more time to settle into the album before reaching this point. Also makes the final acoustic guitar bit make sense, as it’s a reprise of the opening bit of track 1.
This is my favorite band, so hats off to you for taking on this beast. Cassandra is TMV at their most excessive, for better and worse, but I love it. All the dissonance, wackiness, and noise works for me, but I totally understand it's not for everyone. This song reminds me of an extended Led Zeppelin live jam if they were trying to summon demons in a Mexican desert.
It'd be awesome to see your reaction to some of their recent live shows. The latest tour shows how much they've matured and tightened up their sound even on older, crazier songs.
Sometimes TMV reminds me of Swans, specially the song Televators.
All of the criticism you have of the music is exactly why I love it. Those parts that you don't see them as fitting, I see them as accents. I just don't hear the abrasiveness.
I love it too, it's a jumble but in the best way. Kinda think some parts are there to throw people off, induce that fever dream kind of state. Hit both sides of the listeners brain at once and see how they take it
Edit: I've listened to this song many many times and it still gets me, that's music baby!
Because there is no abrasiveness to hear. Regarding the apparently constant need for cohesion: you realize this is explicitly experimental and consciously intended to be a 'prog epic' on steroids... The reaction does not situate the song within the context of the broader album, which is where it gets much of its meaning and coherence from. This is a concept album, there are musical and lyrical themes repeated throughout, which in isolation may appear random and chaotic, but in the totality of the album, make perfect sense. Frankly, this was a shallow reaction and analysis, which in my opinion reflects a lack of understanding of progressive rock, the intentions behind this album, and the context of the song within the album.
I feel like the 'purpose' of TMV, or at least Omars composition a lot of the time, is contrasting parts and having them rub up against each other.
@@rickrank321 hmmm how are those farts smelling? You jar them?
@@rickrank321Maybe TMV is an adquired taste, and not for everyone haha.
that sax solo is so sick leading back to that original chorus
It's violent at times - ever since I first heard it, the only image in my mind was like - something being brutally slaughtered, the sax being its screaming as everything just gets soaked with delay and reverb.
for anyone who really loves sax like that please look into kaoru abe aswell as james chance & the contortions, they both use solos like that all the time
Good o'l Flea from Red Hot Chili Peppers on Sax
Love it or hate it, I think this is definitely TMV's masterpiece. It's certainly them in their peak "violently manic psychedelic prog" mode and was really them pushing their singular style as far as it could possibly go. Like many such uber-ambitious pieces it can easily come off as too indulgent and just too much, in general, for many; and TMV definitely scaled things back a lot after this, with each release after this becoming more accessible (though Amputechture was still quite ambitious in parts). They never went "mainstream accessibility" exactly, but they never produced anything as challenging as this track again, or this album in general. This will always be my favorite from them, perhaps just because I listened to it non-stop for a while after it was released because it blew my mind. While I enjoyed much of their material after I was never as enthused as I was with this Frances the Mute (and Deloused in the Comatorium) era material. I can definitely see you enjoying their later material more, but this is what made so many (including myself) fall in love with them.
BTW, the ending of this track loops back around to the beginning of the album (Cygnus...Vismund Cygnus). The album is a concept album, though woe be to the person who tries to make narrative sense out of the lyrics!
For funsies my cousin created a 2 hour PowerPoint presentation breaking down the entire storyline of this album including the "Frances the Mute" song and the music video for "The Widow".
He had a lot of time on his hands and was obsessed with this album at the time.
I am not sure I concur that Bedlam was anything but a dive headfirst into the conceptual.
In a way its everything I wanted them to do. Taking their excesses and making them a part of the narrative with the "cursed album" concept
This is the blended experience of fever dream meeting a circus meeting an asylum party. Welcome to the TMV soundscape! Honestly, when I first came across them TMV really interested me but I didn't love it. Then I got accidentally exceptionally high one night and this whole album happened to play. And my relationship with the band was transformed and transcended. Its hard to explain why but over time I've figured out what it is. First, you have to get a bit disassociated and track different instruments as if they are totally different conversations happening at a party. Second, the space between the sounds and the ever evolving dynamic between them is extremely hidden and I've only ever really been able to understand it when the music feels slowed down and can hear it all better in a very high state of mind.
Your point of tracking the different instruments actually makes a lot of sense. When this album was being recorded, Omar had everyone play their parts without ever hearing any of the others. Each instrument is its own solo performance.
I love everything these guys have ever done. This album blew my mind when it first came out.
Me to
This is the most intense piece of music I've heard. I am not sure how much of it one can appreciate without losing at leas 2 kilos during the listen. 😅
the sax at 30:16 is just...violent.
Like, the imagery in my head is like an animal being slaughtered - not killed, just slaughtered and it just builds a kind of tension I don't feel in any other track and it just leads into that release and crescendo.
Cassandra Gemini is just...a ride.
i lost 2 IQ
@@8o86 You're clearly not missing them. 😜
@@8o86 wow! youre the first person with negative iq then!
Truly a masterpiece! I’m not a big fan of the extended “freak-out” section near the end. It just went on too long with Omar just noodling around with his effects pedals. But other than that, I consider it their greatest, most ambitious Masterpiece!!
Cassandra Gemini is literally a piece of art lol. This whole song and album are truly flawless, and when it came out was considered a 5-star album by critics, and for good reason. I'm not telling you you're wrong, but.... idk.
Idk if anyone else has played MGS 2 but that voice effect that Cedric uses around the 2:50 mark reminds me so much of the Colonel winging out in Arsenal Gear. Not to mention the flutes and stuff behind it sound like the music playing on arsenal. Its crazy. Wonder if they were influenced by that at all lol
"I hear it's amazing when the famous purple stuffed worm in flap-jaw space with the tuning fork does a raw blink on Hari Kiri Rock. I need scissors! 61!"
I looked up some footage of that sequence and yeah, I totally hear the similarities!
MGS2 is my favorite game and FTM is my favorite album. You're speakin' my language!
YESSSS
Faith No More uses the Alert sound from Metal Gear Solid in their song Stripsearch. Roddy plays it with a string patch on the keyboard
Hey Bryan, thanks so much for checking this out, I know it went over the time limit and you aren't really a fan of The Mars Volta (or this era of TMV at least) but it was really interesting and entertaining hearing your take on it. Not sure why I had a sliver of hope you might like this one despite the other tracks you've heard lol, but I completely understand where you are coming from and its always great hearing your analysis even if I don't always agree.
To be fair, I greatly enjoyed the hook more than anything else I've heard from there. There's definitely some aspect to TMV that I really enjoy and I keep seeing recommendations for some of their other, less abrasive albums. If anything this suggestion has made me more interested in them than before.
I subscribed waiting for this lol.
I seen this band live years ago, a friend that i introduced to metal bought me a ticket, and they were incredible, and absolutely insane.
That 15 sec ending was what Vismund Cygnus started with so album begins and ends with the same melody :)
Oh that makes sense. Musically at least. Narratively I don't understand making the album/story looping within itself.
@@CriticalReactions Whole Frances The Mute album tells the story about the certain family and it's quite long and complicated so I won't even try summarizing it here, however if I remember correctly that loop was a sign that this story will happen again and it will keep happening whenever and wherever. Frances The Mute lore is easily googleable. Though trigger warning: r*pe and m*rder
@@CriticalReactions It's a story about the cycle of revenge and the systemic abuse of organized religion, that's why it loops.
Sarcophagi starts the album to warn the listener about cygnus fate and the seeds of his rage, then the album explodes and finishes on the same passage, but it feels defeated, as revenge was pointless and Cygnus fury dissipates, described in the sound of the kettle cooling off under the guitar.
@@CriticalReactions It's a deep concept album with a lot of layers, hence the heavy replayability (for those who enjoy this type of music)
@@CriticalReactionsthe album is partially about cycles of trauma. The intro/outro also is referred to as "sarcophagi" where the main character starts in utero (a kind of sarcophagus?) and then dies at the end (definitely a sarcophagus) so that return makes sense. Also the word "sarcophagi" means flesh-eaters in greek, which probably also refers to the villains of the story who are only within the narrative at the very beginning (doing villain stuff) and at the very end (being confronted by the narrator) so returning to their leit motif makes sense in that regard as well.
I think your *musical* analysis about the abrasiveness of some sections of the album is indisputable. But from an artistic standpoint, we, the listener, *must* be abraded because the narrative that goes beneath the story demands those abrasions...as it were.
I think listening to a TMV track purely as music is actually missing a good deal of the point, and why their more recent albums haven't done as well--because there isn't a central narrative that the listener can hang their hat on to get through the abrasive parts by saying, "okay, this part here represents a baby screaming and so it makes sense that it's an obnoxious wail" or "this part here is a guitar impression of an ambulence siren so it makes sense that it sounds like THAT." I think if you were to come at Mars Volta albums from a perspective of A) narrative and B) impressionism more broadly, you might consider them slightly differently.
I appreciate the volta reactions! My all time favorite track of theirs is Take the Veil Cerpin Taxt. PLEASE REACT TO IT!!! 😀
Agreeed about Take the Veil Cerpin Taxt. Phenomenal track that displays what they do best at their highest level and I would also say generally most cohesive.
Ha, I just recommended this one before seeing your comment.
He will hate it. lol.
@@jmarsvolta You really think so? I think it is one of their more accessible songs lol
I think it their best song
I would consider myself musically attuned, but I seriously could not explain to you why I love this track so much, but I do
It wasn't even a grower either, it was something that clicked immediately the first time I heard it (though I had already heard TMV before), and it's in my regular rotation and something I listen to casually a loooot, I do dooze off a little during the jam section bit since it's a lot less structurally interesting than the other sections but everything else is RIGHT up my alley
the loud-quiet-loud dynamic applied to texture and melody. chaos adding meaning to the cohesive bits. abrasion and dissonance adding additional beauty to whatever is not. finding solid ground in the chaos, the drums and bass often keeping things together, and omar eventually landing on a string of notes that most would consider "musical". these things are half the fun
one of the few bands that actively remind me music is an art form and not just a technical craft.
I vaguely remember my first listens to this album back in the day. The whole thing was just some random themes here and there surrounded by a lot of noise and ambience. Very hard to orient yourself in. However it grew on me with a LOT of listens. It was helpful to already be a fan because of their previous, arguably more digestible, album.
As a musician myself, I feel like I can connect with some of what this is coming from. At times when I've been working for a long time with compositions or arrangements I can kind of get fed up with... well, assonance. Clean chords and melodies. That's where this type of chaos becomes refreshing to my ears, almost cleansing.
I believe that Omar did a Miles Davis thing here, where he told musicians to go into the studio and play their asses off without hearing any of the music they were going to be a part of. It makes sense when you listen to what the instruments are doing. For me the piece is super intense for a long time in the beginning of the track so the "jam that trails off" almost lets you rest for a bit before they kick it up again. It IS actually a bit lyrically connected, since they're describing a state of mind that is turbulent but also delirious and likely ridden with more than one substance. So the struggle for cohesion is like a struggle to find focus and to get a grip of reality. That's of course just my interpretation. I see that others in this comment section have given some insight as to what the story is so I'm not going to bother with that.
Oh, and the acoustic guitar + vocals outro is more like an outro to the whole album, since that is the exact way the first track begins.
Anyways, creds for your patience with this weird track!
I might be wrong but I think a lot of Omars song writing comes from his love of film and the film making process. He has mentioned before movies really inspire him and he has also tried his hand at making film himself. I can see this song describing scenes out of a movie and all the the different parts describing things playing out in the film.
keep in mind this is a concept album too. i absolutely love the weird little out of tune yelps etc. lol. i also used to feel the same about how there are certain parts that really ruin the overall sound i was enjoying, but over time i have become so acclimated to their sound that i absolutely love those little, weird parts & everything else is kinda boring unless i listen to a complete variety of music. they've been my fav band since i was 18. i'm now 35. lol. they also helped me learn to recognize specific instruments in music, whereas before i would hear everything lumped together. now i can hear each instrument individually. pretty tight
I can totally see everything on this album working better in the context of the whole album, especially after repeat listens.
As always, wonderful reaction and analysis... I could recommend you to check on YT some videos that speak about this album concept, the music functions in order to a story, the Cygnus Vismund story, this piece was the pinnacle of the hole tale, and every moment has a meaning.
Yeah, it's kind of complex that there is a soundtrack to a story that is not like "well written" but that you can do your own interpretation.
This final piece was Cygnus vengance and demise, that's all I can say.
Omar Rodriguez-Lopez's uncompromising musical vision is both exhilarating and awesome to witness but also frustrating and challenging at times, lol. That's why they are The Mars Volta, for better or worse. I have like a 25% success rate trying to get friends and family members into this band. But they are in my top 3 favorite bands of all time. Wild.
I couldn't have worded this better myself. Interesting and frustrating is consistently my thoughts on this band.
What I am hearing is that 'Miranda that ghost just isnt holy anymore' would be your favorite track off this album (and thats very ok, its very beautiful)
Love that one 😍
Imagine having to mix all tracks for this...
The very end of that (that seemed to come out of left field) is a reprise of the opening moments of the album. It makes a lot more sense in context of the whole album than it does with that song in isolation, bookends the album nicely. As many times as I’ve listened to this album, it still threw me listening to this track in isolation with you, lol.
one of the best prog songs ever made along with : close to the edge (yes), thick as a brick (jethro tull) , salisbury (uriah heap) , april (deep purple) and invitation to a river (bill chase)
Mid 2000s or maybe later, I remember an interview where they said they like their music to reflect films that they were fans of. They liked having 'scenes' that didnt make sense or made you uncomfortable the way a film might. That always stuck with me
That makes so much sense because everytime I listen to Frances (especially the widow and Cassandra) the imagery is definitely in the art style of sin City.
I think the excess dissonance is a poetic choice. Like, you aren’t allowed to have just the good. It has to be drenched in all the ugliness, because that’s just life. Or at least, how these artists saw life at this point.
That's a great perspective to look at both their works and the plethora of music based around melodic dissonance.
I saw a guy comment on a video once that TMV sound like someone is pointing a gun at them and telling them to play... the description definitely fits
2:50 reminds me so hard to Little King John from Ratboy Genius.
It's crazy to see a fellow ratboy genius fan out in the wild
I actually really enjoyed this. I have only heard a few TMV songs and they bounced off me, but there is something about this song that I really liked. I assumed this is from a concept album that I might download and listen to as a whole. Also, it is my experience with this style of music that it can take some time to grow on me. Sometimes a first listen is not enough to appreciate everything that is going on and why.
You should listen to Frances the Mute (the album this is from) if you haven’t already. It is indeed a concept album with some exceptionally dark themes if you go looking into it.
The story was actually based off of a diary a late member of the band discovered in the back of a car while working as a repo man. The diary was strange and the band suspected the writer might be schizophrenic as it told a surreal story of the narrator learning he was adopted and seeking out his biological family. The names of the songs on the record are based on the names of different people written about in the diary.
@@LongSinceDead1 very interesting. I'll have to check it out. Thanks :)
the new album is a total mind blower. First listen I was let down....but give a listen or two and you will recognise the brilliance
It is such a beautiful gem
I mean, the descending synth line around 15:00 seems to me to be a counterpoint to the building tension of the rest of the arrangement. Cedric's voice getting more and more insistent and frantic, the horns losing cohesion, the guitar jumping in to shriek a bit and if I'm not mistaken, each cycle of the synths start at a higher point before their descent. Or that may be arpeggiated, I'm not sure
The way you react to their music is the way I react to your TMV reactions. 60% loving it because it looks like you're going to like the song, but then you pair it up with not liking the rest and makes me half not enjoy the review! The like/not-like tension is real! Cheers man! :D
Confused enjoyment is the gift that keeps on giving!
I give you so much props dude. I totally get why some people just can’t dig the Volta, despite my love for them.
But you give them an honest try every time
I find your reactions to my two favorite bands, Porcupine Tree and The Mars Volta, utterly fascinating. You’re typically very enamored with Porcupine Tree/Steven Wilson’s ability to communicate stories and emotions woven flawlessly together, able to follow any potential digressions or embellishments by identifying clear motifs and thru lines and seeing how they shift and evolve, whereas your reactions to TMV are always more conflicted. The cacophony that arises from Omar’s production and composition style always presents roadblocks despite them also channeling a lot of narrative and atmospheric elements through progressive music. On the face of it, they’re both 2000s prog acts with elements of other alternative genres fused together, but The Mars Volta, even though they’re perhaps arguably one of the most stylistically eclectic rock bands ever, stick to a solid template within their music and usually you can find what makes a given song unique or communicative in how each song differs from their own formula, whereas PT, a more ‘in their lane’ band, go for a variety of moods, energies, and general sense of dynamics on a song to song basis, even though they have a comparatively limited toolkit. If you break them down, it’s like The Mara Volta do a sort of free form sculpting for their music, whereas Porcupine Tree meticulously build from disparate parts with a very specific set of instructions- if any of that makes sense. You’re one of the few people who, no matter how you feel about a given compositional choice, I always take something valuable away from your insights and find out way more about music I really love. Thanks for giving these a shot! I think you might actually end up being a much bigger fan of The Mars Volta’s later era stuff, ironically the stuff the fans are far less hot on, because it sees them honing their craft into something a little more pointed and less amorphous.
Pick something from the debut guys!
It was only a matter of time! Honestly it's pretty crazy that both Mars Volta and La Dispute, two very different bands, are both favorites of mine and you have heavily reviewed their work.
I've also decided I would never want to have your musical ear/mind. I want the ignorance of thinking this song is as cool as I did when I first heard it at 16.
TBF this song is still very cool and I would love to hear the thoughts of someone who is musically attuned who loves this track. Not everyone who can listen to music critically has the same tastes, after all.
Respect for your commitment! One of my all time favorite bands, this is my favorite track of my favorite album. Cool to hear someone who doesn't like it, but truly understands music and can explain why in a respectful manner.
You say you're biased, I'd say that you're just more conservative in you preferences. There are things here going on that make first listen just extremely exhausting and I have a feeling you expect everything to make sense on the go. But some of it does only when you approach this song over and over again and catch the flow of those seemingly chaotic and dissonant elements in a wider perspective. Some of it is easier to accept if you consider, that this band emerged from At the Drive-in, a post-hardcore project that was way louder and more uncompromising in their expression. The whole idea behind this music is kind of impossible, because it blends progressive and psychedelic with hardcore and punk, and those are simply two opposite things if you look at popular music history. Somehow they are able to connect those two traditions. There's noise influence there, there's Latino music component as well... Really a lot to unpack, and we didn't really even mentioned cryptic lyrics and themes they're dealing with yet. Does it all change anything? No, you don't have to like it, dissonant and abrasive sounds are not for everyone and that's absolutely fine. Sometimes all those background (or not-so-background) noises make more sense if you really treat this music as psychedelic in the first place, by which I mean you trip to it. And boy, what a trip it is. But I enjoyed this album and song for years (and still, I noticed a nice detail i bass that I never payed attention to before, while watching your reaction) without this perspective, so I guess it all comes down to your taste and aesthetic preferences at the end of the day. Thanks for listening and analysis anyway, it's always fun to watch and hear your observations :)
Maybe I should've add, cause it seems important somehow - I truly believe this whole album is a masterpiece. It's perfect and I wouldn't change a single note in it. The only thing I regret is that record label allegedly didn't accept it to be longer, so they had to cut out title track "Frances the Mute", that was supposed to start the whole thing. I imagine you'd absolutely hate that one hahaha.
There are not many records that I consider to be 10 out of 10. I'm awfully picky when it comes to music. I have enough musical education to understand many things going on, but definitely not all of it. That being said - the size of this thing, the nerve required to create such a thing, the imagination of those people, the amount of layers, the fact that it's a music close to impossible to wear off no matter how much you listen to it, the emotional expression maintained in spite of pedantic attention to detail - it all just blows my mind. Mars Volta has it's own category in music. I believe even they are not able to re-create any of those early achievements in their discography, and even if they tried - it would be pointless, because it's already done, there are other things and places to explore. I'm not a believer, I'm rarely really sure of anything, but if you call this statement a devotion, so be it, I can live with that.
Despite my overall negative experience with the track there's still a lot that I enjoyed here and I'm 100% certain the entire album improves with repeat listens. One of my top 3 albums of all times bounced off of me the first time I heard it so I'm not discounting this album at all. It's very possible that more context and a better understanding of how this fits into the evolution of musical trends would help me appreciate it more. As you stated, it has a ton of influences and many are not easily combined together.
Props to you for reacting to the entire song. Such an epic journey IMO.
what I do love about this track is that despite being 32 minutes long, it never really gets boring. Yes the jam section in the middle is about 7 minutes long, but compared to the rest it's really not that out of the ordinary lengthwise.
Just look at the booklet of the album, they barely fit all of the lyrics to this lol.
43:40 I think the thing with Mars Volta is that their albums are more structured like a movie rather than an album.
45:30 Their sound designer Jeremy Ward, while working as a cars salesman found a diary of an adopted person trying to find their biological mother on the back of an old car and he could really relate to that cause afaik he was adopted too. The album is only losely based on that though, as the story revolves about Cygnus trying to find the people who r*** and killed his mother Frances. L'via, Widow and Miranda are all people he met along the way.
I really love your opinions cuz it's it's like reality punching fans in the stomach. The Mars Volta never do anything randomly, and you will never understand the composing without understanding the message.
I am a guy who rates pink floyd's dark side of the moon 2nd, guess who's the first...yep.
This is a movie, Frances the Mute is a movie, sorry, but you will never understand the composing earing tracks isolated.
For example, L'via L'Viaquez, you told it was creepy. It was supposed to be because it was an ode to a death woman, and the latin section meant to represent a regression to the main carachter's past. It's a classic Frederico Fellini theme.
Cassandra gemini: first of all, Cassandra. Cassandra was an oracle who was damned by the god Apollo to never be believed again because she rejected him. Cassandra in gemini is also an astronomical occurance. Cassandra gemini apoints to bipolarity of the main caracther, Cassandra is in fact a female alter ego full of rage and murderours revenge. Now the strange screams Cedric does. If you take a closer look he his imitating crows, owls and chickens (or gallos con dentes de machete). They all represent certain group of people the main carachter put in "little boxes". The final section of the song, sarcophagii, represents death, you also heard it on Cygnus...Vismund Cygnus. Also 26 is repeated thowards the song: "I think I've become one of the others...25 wifes e the lake tonight" 25 +1 = 26. 26 represents death.
I am talking too much, sorry ahah.
FOR A TOTAL DIFFERENT MARS VOLTA:
Last 2 albuns. Fans, let's ask for Luciforms, luciforms, luciforms....
Definitely one of the songs I’ve been waiting for
I'm currently struggling to add dynamic sunset shadowing to a Cedric portrait, but the right (visually left) side of him only. A tasteful approach is risky. Easy to mess it up.
I think that was a new record for puzzled head shakes. 😕 I personally love this track. Sure it does meander around with a lot of various sounds and change-ups, but I really don't find anything downright abrasive.
This is one of my favorite songs of all time, and this analysis is my favorite that I've seen on here. I deeply appreciate the honesty in your takes on this band's music.
There is so amazing parts in this song. This originally was not going to be an LP, it was just an experimental album, and this song was split into 5 songs. Someone released the whole album online with this song as 1 instead of 5 parts. It maybe my favorite album from them.
You're the man for committing to this one! It's not exactly a banger all the way through, but man it has some amazing sections. If you still want to hear more I recommend "Take the Veil Cerpin Taxt".
Interesting fact about the performances, for this and almost all of the TMV albums: the composer would force each musician to record their parts individually, WITHOUT HEARING THE OTHER INSTRUMENTS. One man's crazy dream.
I think this album is unsettling both intentionally and subconsciously from the band’s side. It deals with loss and tragedy they really experienced at the time. The story is inspired by an anonymous diary Jeremy Ward (friend of the band) found while repossessing a car. He realized he has much in common with the person who wrote it, they were both adopted and looking for their biological parents.
From what I know, many people interpret the details of the story on the album differently, but basically it’s about a man (Vismund Cygnus) that finds out he was adpoted after his mother was killed. She was likely a nun raped by a priest and when she tried to abort the baby, the church forced her to keep it and killed her after giving birth. Her mother and sister had to flee and live in hiding. Cassandra Gemini is probably about him processing the story (maybe that’s why it goes back and forth), and him deciding to burn the church while everyone inside. Then killing himself afterwards, joining his mother.
Jeremy Ward died from heroin overdose about a month before the release of their debut De-Loused in the Comatorium (that deals with loss of another friend). Allegedly that inspired Omar and Cedric to kick their own addictions.
I didn’t think about this album as being abrasive when I first heard it, or maybe I didn’t mind at the time because I needed it. I thought of it more as creepy. I think I was drawn to it because it’s just so emotionaly charged and heartbreaking, even though I didn't know about the story back then.
Lyrically, it deals with tragedy and suicide, and It gave me some kind of validation and outlet for my anger and frustration (but maybe also amplified it though). To this day some of the lyrics are the most existential ones to me.
I don’t mind the little disorienting details, for me they’re the part of the concept and add to the atmosphere and uniqueness of it.
Thanks for the reaction and for giving it a chance. :)
The most underrated band I've heard. This band is in an a league all their own, one of the most epic I've heard
Totally get this criticism. Few people I show this to like it bc it’s just too out there and chaotic. Full of dissonance, etc. But it’s part of the experience to be this chaotic, intense often disorienting spooky rock in roll opera. I mean it’s jazz it’s balls out rock it’s the weaving between life and death, things uniting and things being ripped apart. It’s one of my favorite albums ever bc I like weird and I like to rock and hearing this album is a one of a kind experience. But yes, it’s ugly and grating at times. I get that.
I remember hearing this album originally and thinking it was just noise. While I don’t have the musical language or understanding of theory of what’s going on, it sounds more musical to me. After listening to much more “noisey” and abrasive “music” this is much more digestible to me. Tbh, I didn’t listen to the entire song but skipped to your comments.
The comparison to HTS to TMV makes sense to me sonically. The core of HTS- vocals, melodic lines, drumming- all sound like a less spastic TMV (their older stuff imo sounds a bit more like TMV but is still a bit more controlled and melodic). I don’t know the history of TMV, but I’m assuming there’s a reason to their “noisey” approach to music.
I’m curious what your line is for “noise” vs “music”? I imagine it’s difficult to define in a YT comment, but maybe some musical examples??
Thanks as always Bryan!
I didn't intend to use the word noise as much as I did in this video because it carries negative connotations with it. In this case, noise is a type of music that purposefully, and on as many characteristics as possible, pushing against the other concepts surrounding it. For instance there are quite a sections where the lead vocals, a rhythm guitar, the bass, and the drums will be playing something rather palatable and then a sax or flute or lead guitar will start playing something that is rhythmically, harmonically, and sonically different; almost as if it were from a different song. If I ever get the thought "wait, do I have another tab running audio" then that's noisy music to me. It's not bad and it's certainly not "not music" but it's not my cup of tea.
@@CriticalReactions Omar is quoted as saying they wanted to make music that was abrasive to the common man. What ever that means.
I've said it before, but considering you liked (or at least somewhat enjoyed) the newer stuff, you might actually dig their last album. Maybe even the more down to Earth approach from Ochtaedron and (up to a point) Noctourniquet. Frances is probably their most inaccesible stuff and it's crazy how it's what you've been mostly exposed. Don't get me wrong, I'm among the poeple that loves this album, but it's clear it's not something you'd like by now. And it's not all this band has to offer. I'd even say you'd probably dig the tracks you haven't listened to more than the three you had so far because even with the weird ambient sections and abrasive nature, both are kind of ballads and way more palatable for me most part. Great insight as always, even if I don't agree with the overall sentiment, I can undestrand why you feel frustrated with this.
Is the new one decent? I heard the first single and it was bit too jazzy for me. Love most of their albums but could only handle a couple songs on noctourniquet.
@@printsignalsoma1248 Personally I really like it, but it's pretty poppy and a bit yacht rock even. My favourites are Frances and Ochtaedron for different reasons, the last one feels like the pop songwriting from that album's most focused moments with the electronic sheen of Noctourniquet, so keep that in mind.
I don't think I actively love Mars Volta, but the unifying thread that keeps me coming back to a couple of their songs is how strong their choruses are. Such strong vocal melodies and harmonies paired with violent guitars going all out on the riffage - it really wakes you up after a couple minutes of instrumental wankery. And yet I don't think the choruses would *feel* as strong if we didn't have to suffer through the other bits. Cassandra Gemini *rarely* goes on my rotation because "the other bits" constitutes 25 minutes of fluff ranging from decent to pain-inducing, but there's no doubt that final chorus gets me just as excited as you did when it finally comes back around. Talk about a build up. Cygnus... Vismund Cygnus' chorus is better though.
The descending Sint represents the women sinking, the ice packs falling in a stabbing movement, the blood dripping from the ice picks.
Mars Volta deeply changed what do I like about music, an acquired tasted really hard to find elsewhere.
Recently had a similar experience with the music of Oxbow. With me at the beginning being on the side of "what is this noise?".
Congratulations. You have now listened to the greatest song ever written. You may die a happy man now.
LOVE THIS SONG SO MUCH
The end acoustic section, While making no sense in the context of this song, makes sense in context of the album.
The same part opens the album.
Normally I don't really care for prog rock, but this chaotic jazziness (or is it their hardcore background) gives the music, of an otherwise pretty self-indulgent genre, a nice shot up the arm. This is one of the few prog rock bands I really like, together with King Crimson, Cardiacs and Mahavishnu Orchestra I guess.
That little bit at the end is a reprise from the opening bit of the album
I went back and forth with TMV. Always loved them but there was a time when i didn't like how sloppy some playing and arrangements were. Now i love all of it even after learning jazz guitar.
When you touch on the things that don't fit musically within each track, I have an idea why that might be. From what I can gather, this 32min song is a story of a woman that went literally insane once she found out she was the result of adultery, and then proceeds to start murdering adulterers. There's a palpable sense of unease and chaotic emotional undertones the whole way through this, and from a storytelling standpoint it makes sense.
"25 wives in the lake tonight" - 25 victims from her rampage
"The icepick's cummin' on the marble shrine" - she used an icepick
27:50 - 30:45 to me sounds like a murder being committed, it's so out of place and sounds "wrong". The sax solo around 30:20 sounds like somebody screaming.
Enjoyed watching this reaction and review. The theme of the album is centered around a journal the band found. The journal detailed an adopted person's journey to find their parents. The dissonance and lack of cohesion certainly reflects that. The Mars Volta is also chaotic generally for what that's worth.
King Crimson meets Can meets Yes meets Pink Floyd meets Frank Zappa
Yup
You forgot to add The MC5
With some Yellow Magic Orchestra, Dick Dale and every kind of Latin influence you can think of
and the offspring is latin american
And John Coltrane. The sax sections of Cassandra Gemini has echoes of A Love Supreme.
My favourtie song, listen to this almost every day
I think you will really dig their tracks Take the Veil Cerpin Taxt or Drunkship of Lanterns based on your criticism of their work
That final acoustic part is meant to be a revisitation to the beginning of first track, Cygnus...Vismund Cygnus which begins with that track. In this way, the album begins where it ends.
on the lyrics: i don't think there's much there in the way of metaphors or hidden meanings. it's closer to surrealist automatic writing really
Hey Bryan, what you call "just noice" in here is NOT just noise but music (noisy music that might annoy you to bits perhaps, but still music☝️)😁
You're probably right that TMV don't care what critics think but (possibly partly because of just that) they were something of the critics darlings in Sweden at least. The same critics who never had a good word to say about prog otherwise (and subsequently never called TMV prog in their reviews...)
I think one can also see much of that "jam band section" as a jazz/fusion. Jazz is typically much about improvised soloing over repeated foundation(s). I don't particularly enjoy all of theese solos but the section is as much without direction as most jazz (though more in the vein of free jazz in some of the solo work - but that's just the choice of the soloists and not a definer of what kind of music it is...)
For the second time today you manage to (patiently) do a good reaction & analysis for a song you didn't enjoy overall. Bravo!
I was probably a bit cynical when I used the word noise to describe the more abrasive additions to some of the sections but it's the closest word I have for what they were doing. It's definitely music but I hear a lot of it as "sounds purposefully chosen to be as dissonant (harmonically, rhythmically, spatially) from the other sounds in the section". This is a good reminder that I need to expand my vocabulary when talking about musical ideas like this though.
I totally agree with your free jazz comparison. That style loves to meander and do not much and it's one of the styles of jazz that tends to bounce off of me, which I don't think is a coincidence. When Jazz week comes up I'm definitely looking forward to more traditional jazz than the experimental, avant-garde, or free variants. 😅
I've seen a few of your Mars Volta reactions. Kudos for sticking with it despite not really digging a fair amount of what you've heard. You might like some stuff off their first album Deloused In The Comatorium. More direct, less fluff. Imagine all the punchy choruses and hooks, but without the extended proggy jams.
I haven't written them off entirely. I usually find something of interest in their music that I've been exposed to and I've been told that they have far less experimental sounds. I look forward to digging into Deloused one day.
@@CriticalReactions Yeah there's obviously something you like about them or you wouldn't still be reacting to their material. It's clear from your reactions which bits really resonate with you and which don't, which I fully understand. Frances is a dense and at times self-indulgent album. It's really not the best introduction for new listeners, despite being a fan favourite.
I'd love to see a compare and contrast between The Mars Volta and At the Drive-In (The lead singer and lead guitarists band from the 90s, resurrected in the late early 2020's or late 10's)
God I love seeing reactions to music I love.
i always interpreted chaotic TMV as: "if you endure, you'll be rewarded". same to me as to endure screamo or growl: I HATE IT. but some bands are instrumentally/compositionally worth the pain
hey man out of curiosity, have you ever done psychedelics?
31:08 before this omar brings you into a nest of chaos that youre rightfully critical of, and its all so you desire this moment so much, then theyre back in orbit at 32:07
I was laughing out loud multiple times because you seemed so frustrated. Fantastic reaction as always.
This was certainly one of my more frustrating listens. 😂 So many parts that were just on the cusp of finally connecting with me but just barely missed it. I should give it another shot one day though since it's been a while.
This is my all time favorite band, but it has taken many multiple listens for me to fully appreciate everything about the style of composition. For me, it's the album Deloused In The Comatorium that really shines the brightest. Once you have the time changes committed to memory and you can slap your hands along to the entire album and know all the changes, it just feels amazing. Its now deeply stamped on my emotional consciousness, and there is no going back.
Thanks to talk about this piece AND band ITS so difficult we cover us to true genious, no understand Many things in those compositions...because our level of critic no compares with Mars Volta like to say us .. but there Is not other musika like them
Great marvel in this fucking world
The Beatles had the White Album and Mars Volta have the White Noise Album. The only thing i have against the noise prog is that the banging title track was left off this album cos it wouldn't fit the CD length.
Wow!!! Oh my goodness. Why so freaking long? It's very, very good. Experimental music, right?
You are not TMV’s target audience. Your reaction is to me what their music is to you. Negative, negative, meh, negative, love, like, wtf, negative, negative.
Someone may have mentioned this, but Omar purposefully had some members play parts without knowledge of the other concurrent players' parts. Might explain why all but one instrument seems in sync thematically with the others. This practice seems to be a Herbie Hancock inspiration.
I understand your frustrations but I feel you need to hear the album as a whole and not separate songs. When I hear the Mars Volta , it's usually the whole album beginning to end. My opinion....
That's totally fair. I've now heard every track from this album in isolation with plenty of time between them. Maybe just sitting down and taking it all in at once is the key. Mind you, I don't think that's gonna work for me but I'm willing to give it a try with an open mind.
i really wish he’d listen to something off of Noctourniquet. specifically The Malkin Jewel or Empty Vessels, some less proggy stuff but still amazing music (my favorite album of theirs)
YEEESSSSSSS
The mars Volta grew on me over the course of like 2 years. It's like your brain needs some time to figure out what the hell you just did to it.
vicariously loving this
Also, i just heard your comment about Hail the Sun. So, i checked them out, and i think i have an understanding here. It seems you enjoy modern metal type sound and production. Which is very much the opposite of the Mars Volta, who took much of their inspiration from improv jazz.
Great !, Easily my favorite Mars Volta track.
Omar loves to revel in atmospheric dissonance. It's def a love it or hate it thing.
One of his biggest influences is Siouxsie & The Banshees, whom also heavily use atmospheric dissonance.
When I first listened to this album when it came it I hated it & made fun of friends who made me listen to it.
But I found the drums, bass, & horns stuck in my head, kept listening and ended up becoming a mega fan, seeing them in concert 3 times lol.
If you're interested, their 2022 comeback album is more laid back, without the insane parts of their earlier discography.
I heard their first single from it but haven't had a chance to dive into the full album. It's on my list though.
When you just finished the song but you still have to do an analysis: I'm tired, boss. Haha.
Love this song. Some sections feel to me like they are pushing my head under the water. And when a less chaotic part comes I can finally breathe. Tension and release I guess.
I knew a year ago that you wouldn't enjoy this, in part because I don't really like it either despite being a TMV fan myself. I agree with the reasons you stated about the long jam section in the second half- it's too long and droning for me. I can't make it all the way through the song even though I go in knowing how long it is because by the time we hit that 15 minute mark, it feels like it's been the full 30 minutes because of how relentless it is. By the time the song is over, it feels like I've been listening for an hour. Like you said, I do find myself occasionally listening to the first half and enjoying it, but then moving on because the second half just isn't worth it to me.
On the note of the songs you haven't heard from this album, I think you would legitimately enjoy Miranda. It's the song right before this one. The only problem with that one is it, like the rest of the songs on the album, has a long ambient section (the first 3:30 or so) that I just have to skip to get into the actual music.
haha the ambient section is my favourite part isnt that funny how fans of the same band can have 2 opposite opinions
Omar playing guitar with Omar
One though that has always come to mind when thinking of Frances the Mute as a hole. It is that disfunctional apartment complex you walk through and you get to hear all the noises good and bad. It is the muk of life.
This is one of my all time favorite songs. There is so much groove it's ridiculous. Get some good shrooms and and pair of noise canceling headphones and blast off. Mars Volta is like Pink Floyd just free based an 8 ball.
Everything about this piece blows my mind every time I listen to it 🎉. It puts me in a great mood and energized for the day. I, too, hated them for at least a year when I first heard them in the early days. But now they have grown into one of my top listens, Ever. And I still can't get enough.
You need to check out some 5uu's. Try, " Resentments ", live. It's an early piece. Their album," Crisis in Clay", is on my desert island list.
LMAOOO I loved seeing Bryan straight up pissed off like yo.... why are yall doing this haha
I see your point but for some reason I love those weird screechy bits. Reminds me of Saucerful of Secrets et al.