We can thank Woodham's scrapyard, Barry Island, South Wales for the proliferation of GWR locos (and Southern examples to a lesser extent) in preservation. God's Wonderful Railway!
YEP IF THE YARD HAD OF BEEN IN THE NORTH HE'D PROBBABLY HAVE SAID LMS LNER IN THE SOUTH SOUTHERN , YED DAI DID SCRAP A LOCO EVERYONE WANTED TO KEEP LEAVING NONE OF A VERY IMPORTANT TYPE IN EXISTANCE THAT ANGERED PRESERVATIONISTS
@@True_NOONabsolutely, by the start of the Second World War, the gwr had about 20 boiler types to maintain. The lner, a much poorer company, had 163. As boring as standardisation may look aesthetically, it makes great pragmatic sense for cost savings and spares, enabling a greater number of locos available for traffic
@@TheSaint491 The Gas Water & Rust is boring. Banging on about innovation. The Southern were putting in electrics, when GWR were still building kettles on wheels.
There are two ways of doing things: the wrong way, or the Great Western Way. The RIGHT way. And I'm from the Great Western Region, so hearing that their boaring is a great-insult. *PUN-intended*
The GWR always had the most fancy engines of the railway companies of Britain, whereas the rest concentrated on streamlining (A4's Duchess's and Battle of Britain's on the other 3 come to mind) and speed. GW tanks are always a favourite of mine, such as the Panniers, 14xx's, and the Prairie's.
Thanks Sam, certainly my weakness here. City class takes it from your offering. GWR engineers were so innovative and great problem solvers. For sheer attractiveness you can't beat a 14/58xx, although I do love a Prairie. So many interesting and graceful locos to come out of the GWR trinity of designers. They are enduring and were the proto 'standard' locomotives.
Fascinating overview Sam, and actually quite a nice addition after having watched a documentary about Brunel. The GWR locos certainly were different. The likeability of many of them could be up for debate perhaps but you certainly can't blame them for not being distinctive. Winner for us: Pannier. One aspect of historic British locos always springing to mind is how intricate their liveries were/are. It must have been a nightmare to keep them clean somewhat. If we only could be modelling broad gauge as well... Perhaps that would be an awesome challenge for 3D printing hahah. Thanks for the captivating résumé Sam. Cheerio.
Thanks very much Linda, that's great to hear! And great call on the Pannier - such classics those! You're right about the liveries... they really went to some trouble to keep everything looking elegant! Thanks for watching, Sam :)
For me, the two main reasons would be: - Overrepresentation in preservation, as you said - The GWR heavily relied on standardisation like BR would later, meaning they tended to use similar parts and have similar appearances. To the untrained eye, this can create a lot of "sameness" compared to other companies of the age. But you brought along some wonderful examples of the variety within GWR engines, and TBH they're probably my favourites over the castles and dukedogs.
When you look at the three other big four companies, they all had at least one visually distinctive express passenger loco (LMS-Streamline Coronation, LNER-A4 Pacific, Southern-Unrebuilt Merchant Navy), but the rest of their fleets were generally rather samey. The GWR never really had a visually distinctive/streaminlined express passenger loco. It's one of the reasons I think GWR is thought of as boring. However, the streamlined AEC railcars were definitely interesting. I'm surprised Sam didn't include those in this video.
Thanks for a really enjoyable video Sam. I grew up in Somerset, a few miles from Bristol so have always been a great admirer of the world's greatest ever Engineer, Isambard Kingdom Brunel and his acheivements, such as the Clifton Suspension Bridge and SS Great Britain which I saw on a regular basis growing up. And of course the GWR. Like the Romans Brunel laid straight lines, the Paddington to Temple Meads line is the best in the country which is why BR used it for their trials of the HST. And his bridges and tunnels are marvels of engineering. He laid down a legacy of good design and efficiency at the GWR. And the most famous Chief mechanical Engineers were all trained or influenced by GWR. There's no question that God's Wonderful Railway, as it was known, was the best run and most efficient of the big four and particularly in the early years had the best designed locos, as shown when Caerphilly Castle outperformed Gresleys's A1 Flying Scotsman in the exchange trials. Churchward's 1901 Outline scheme was a big part of that, proposing just 6 loco designs, using 5 wheel configurations, with many parts being interchangeable. This was more efficient and saved money. It was decades before the other three companies followed suit. Later locos were all evolutions, rather than completely new designs, which again is very efficient. The downside of that for modellers is that there is less variety than the other companies, particularly as you point out the 4-6-0s and 0-6-0 tanks. The lack of livery options is another fair point. As a result I have fewer GWR locos in my collection than any of the others. The LNER, especially has far more different designs and liveries available to modellers, e.g. Seven (!) different liveries available for the gorgeous A4s. That said I do like the GWR tank engines and the 0-6-0 panniers are iconic, partly thanks to Duck. The Hawkwoods are lovely coaches too.
There are some good GWR engines particular the pregouping locos and the Prairie classes of loco, lets not forget the Great Bear either. According Wikipedia, The King class of locomtive had more tractive effort than a 9F 40,300 lbf compared to 39,667 even after overhaul it was still 33lbf superior to the 9F so in the terms of tractive effort maybe enthuasiasts need to relook at things. As for loads of GWR locos in the preservation scene maybe thats thanks to Barry scrapyard for which we should be grateful. Do not forget enthusiasts back then were desperate to get their hands on any engine!
Ahh the Prairies - should have squeezed one of those in thinking about it! Great bear is one I'd love to see one! It is indeed thanks to Barry - though no complaints from me! Thanks for watching, Sam :)
I find European stuff more fun and that's what I mostly model as escapism having travelled and lived abroad a fair bit. But there's nothing more magical than sending GWR Burton Agnes Hall round the track for purely personal reasons - my Dad travelled to his university interview in a regular service hauled by BAH in the sixties, complete with dining car serving teacakes. My kids have now seen it with said grandad at Didcot railway centre (and they can't believe he actually took it as a normal train). So for me it's all about the emotional connections rather than anything else.
Ahh excellent - I'll have to start showing more of those models at some point then! And thanks for sharing - there certainly is magic in the Hall class! Thanks for watching, Sam :)
First I must nail my colours to the mast. I volunteer at an ex-GWR heritage railway and my Great Grandfather was a GWR railwayman at Bristol for his entire working life, and I have a preference for GWR trains both 1:1 scale and models. Nevertheless there was a sameness about the later products of Swindon works, because they had designed a fleet of locomotives that had the required performance, and until WW2 and later there was no need to change. "If it ain't broke don't fix it!" However although this does not relate to coaching stock. It was said, with a certain degree of truth, that no GWR train had two carriages the same. Look at any picture of their trains from the 1930s and there is a wonderful mix of coaching stock on all but the most prestigious trains. Flat-ended, bow-ended, 57', 63', even 70' stock, designed by Collett, Churchward and right back to Dean. My complaint is that typical formations cannot be modeled because the stock is not available. To run my layout as a typical secondary line I need half a dozen locos at most, all small to medium sized, but probably 20 different carriages. As an n gauge modeller the locos can be found, but not the rolling stock to give the character I want.
I can think of a larger tank engine! Bulleid's Leader has it beat, although I guess it's not what most people would think of when you say "tank engine."
And if GW locos are all the same, what about the LMS, with 800-some odd Black 5s, 181? Jubilees and 71 Rebuilt Scots, all of which have a very close family resemblance. And 800+ 8Fs! And of those all the 5s and 8Fs were black
Panniers that are Not Great Western...hmmm...if you visit the North Tyneside Railway ,in its associated museum is a " long boiler " type 0-6-0 with Panniers, worked at a local colliery. And if you visit Trainworld next time you're in Brussels, you can see a Belpaire designed outside frame 0-6-0 with a square chimney! I'm not making it up, honestly! Thanks for another great video. Boredom is a state of mind, only boring people would find GW engines boring.
Charles Collett's design language is too consistant for its own good! All his locos look like they're just resized variants of the same basic shape, with a lot of parts and details shared between them. This lack of variation, combined with the relatively boring liveries (made to seem even boring-er because of BR green and black) results in a range of engines that don't have much distinctiveness or unique styling. Add to that the fact that many of Collett's 'new' locos were incremental updates to existing Churchward designs, and you get a lot of visual sameness across the entire post-1923 Great Western era. I personally like the GWR aesthetic, but it does seem to be a case of "given the opportunity, engineers will optimize the fun out of their machines".
its mainly because of Barry scrapyard that theres so many GWR locos, being based in Wales and taking so long to get round to cutting up the locos meant they survived or so long, also pity its not easy to get hold of broad gauge stuff easily because they really were elegant
Barry scrap yard, most preserved locomotives ended up at Barry scrapyard, but he didn’t brake them up unlike other scrap yards, Barry scrap yard was the mainly used by the GWR region, as such this is why we have so many GWR locomotives.
GWR were the masters of Standardization. They had 12 boiler types compared to groups like the LNER and LMS who had over a 100 each and the logic of being able to pick a part and know it will fit every time really put them ahead of the rest. (And this is coming from a guy who is a Southern railway collector). But it did mean that their locomotives do look the same with few differences. They did try a Pacific called "The Great Bear" but it was more a show horse than a work horse.
There Are Not Boring Western's, People Don't Want To Learn About History & More. Witch I Lo❤e The Great Western Trains Like Those. I Know They Are Great Western's 👍
Born and grew up in The Valleys. I can remember the end of steam, the Panniers, the big Prairies small ones. So first choice for me in models has always been GWR. Don't get me wrong, I love all things steam, but I'm dyed in the wool GWR.
The 2800 class was the engine used as the "Miracle Express" in the bands music video for their track Breakthru. Roger Taylor had the idea, and filmed at Nene Valley in 1989.
Quite a good idea to make a documentary about the locos in your collection rather than a review of a new model complaining about the price! Not all Pannier Tanks are created equal. I found the old Hornby one runs better than the modern DCC one! You might like to create a video enhtitled, "Battle of the Pannier Tanks". Which model is the Sam's Trains winner?
I’m not a huge fan of the GWR, as you said the designs are often very similar and people do go on about them a bit. But I won’t deny that some of their locomotives a beautiful. City of Truro is probably my favourite.
GWR stuff is far from boring. In my work, restoring and preserving antique model trains, one of my 'things' is to squeeze better and better performance out of 70+ year old locomotives. Lionel O gauge engines that the old instructions called for three-four cars tops regularly pull fifteen or twenty for me. The GWR was doing similar. Minor changes to existing designs. They were innovators, pushing the envelope. While the LNER went all in on 4-6-2s, and statesde we had 4-8-4s, the GWR just kept improving the 4-6-0s. I've read about the optical frame alignment Swindon was using, how free rolling the locos were. Doesn't sound big, but its less power wasted to friction, all those minor improvements add up. I think they call it 'marginal gains', and yes they do add up. So for a nerd like my, the GWR really is Gods Wonderful Railway.
See the reason why the GWR is so good is also why it isn’t interesting. Their standardization is probably the most uniform of all the big 4, but that’s somewhat the problem. A lot of GWR Engines follow this formula: Tapered boilers, belpaire fireboxes, no domes, same safety valve bonnet, same standard parts. For cost saving, it’s brilliant. With variety, it’s like someone saying that their favorite color is dark green and they show off different shades of dark green. Sure, minor differences, but it’s still dark green.
Hi Sam, a great video my favourite is the 15XX, designed by GWR without footplates but finished built in BR days an 0-6-0 Pannier Tank with full WALSCHAERTS VALVE GEAR and I have models in OO and O gauge kit built. I also have one on order from Rapido in 00 BR lined livery and is due out this month. There were only ten produced in the Class. Sam you must get one and give it a review ! Regards from Ron 👍
A good video! I like Pannier tanks, My first 'proper' electric train set was the Hornby pick up good set, that I got for Christmas c1975/6. Also a fave because one featured in the TV Series 'Flockton Flyer'... And also in the original and best film vesrion og The Railway Children, but that was in the fictitious GN&SR Umber livery!
There are few things I like more than emerald green paint and brass on a steam loco, and Western engines are very well proportioned. They definitely aren't boring, although they are rather uniform, with so many standardized features and design practices. You can generally tell a Western design at a glance, the dainty tapered boilers, the distinctive safety valve covers, and the whole aesthetic is very unified.
Hi Sam. Glad to see you sticking up for 'God's Wonderful Railway'. A shame you omitted to discuss GWR's Saddle Tanks as they played a useful part in shunting on the tight curves of the dockside lines. According to a couple of historical GWR books I possess (plus the J.H.Russell books), the name 'Lord Of The Isles' did not exist in a 4-2-2 format but did exist in the 2-2-2 broad gauge format. I purchased brass name and number plates and converted my 'LOTI' to 'Crusader' as that particular loco actually existed in the 4-2-2 format. Also, IMHO, people not liking the look of the 'City Of Truro' need to pay a visit to Specsavers 😁. I cannot understand why anyone who appreciates beauty would poo-poo the Truro; they're probably diesel lovers. Ciao. Paul. 👍❤
@@AndreiTupolev Hi Andrei. Not according to my GWR history books that provide a list of the William Dean Achilles Class 4-2-2s and their corresponding numbers. Under the name 'Lord Of The Isles', it is listed as a Broad Gauge 2-2-2 that was designed by Daniel Gooch and came under the umbrella of the 'Iron Duke' Class (later converted to 4-2-2 that continued on as a Broad Gauge loco). It was withdrawn from service in 1884 and was stored in Swindon railway works until it was scrapped in 1906 due to lack of space. Paul.
Thanks Paul - yeah that's very true, I suppose the saddle tank should have had an honourable mention, as they're quite unique looking for GWR locos. That's very interesting about Lord of the Isles - is that really true?!?! Thanks for watching, Sam :)
Grew up next to LNER metals also quite near LMS, in the 50’s/60s. All the big four were good, we can have our favourite, but there isn’t a best. I have approx 40 locos 16 are GWR about 8 LMS, and 8 LNER, 4 BR, and 4 Southern. I love them all!
Fantastic video Sam! I absolutely loved it! You've single-handedly managed to sum up everything I love about the great Western Railway! What a stunner that 'City of Truro' loco is! Any clue where I could find one for a relatively decent price? I've been after one for a while now. Keep up the good work! :)
As a committed Diesel fan I may be out of my depth here, but I think the situation isn’t so much “GWR locos are dull”, but “I always see models and layouts of the GWR”. I think this is also a bit of a self-fulfilling situation in that lots of GWR layouts are made (because lots of stock is available), so model companies make lots of stock and so on and so on. All that being said, I personally really like the GWR Castles and I am glad so many GWR locos were saved due to them ending up at a certain Welsh scrap yard.
hahaha yeah that's a very common comment too actually... and that's an interesting thought, maybe there is a bit of snowballing going on there? Thanks for watching, Sam :)
Ahh interesting! Wonder if that was longer? I know the 72xx was heavier than that... but if the A55 was longer then it could be considered the biggest! Thanks for watching, Sam :)
A nice video, and since you said you couldn't think of any larger tank engines, I have three that may fit the bill. First is the GER A55 0-10-0t, followed by the GCR 8H 0-8-4t, running along an LBSCR L 4-6-4t. I don't have specifics on these engines to say if they are or aren't larger than the GWR 72xx 2-8-2t, and there are other tank engines in the UK and this comment section that are themselves pretty large, but I do hope this small note does you a good one, same as this video has done for us.
Great Western followed the meme of standard parts, you could mix boilers, fireboxes, wheel sizes, to make a different classes, but standardized parts was the key. You could turn out a prototype quicker because the parts were all proven. And LMS inherited William Stanier as their Chief Mechanical Engineer who learnt his trade in the workshops of the GWR, and took that on to the BR Standards!
Personally, I like the GWR locos but their design tend to be repetitive to the point that moguls, 4-6-0’s, and 4-4-0’s aesthetically look similar. The same applies to most tank engines usually resembling prairies or pannier tanks, mostly pre-grouping GWR locos gave a distinctive appearance
I think the other factor is that GWR locos never benefitted from the glamour of the "Race to the North" of the inter war years that LNER and LMS locos benefitted from.
OK, not the "Races to the North", but the GW had the Ocean Liner races to Plymouth with the LSWR, right up until the Salisbury crash of 1906 put the kybosh on such racing.
@@TheHoveHeretic As you said that died out in 1906 and became irrelevant with grouping, whereas LMS and LNER continued to compete for the fastest service to the north creating such icons as the A4s and Princess Coronation Class. GWR simply never had anything that captured the countries imagination in the age of the newsreel which was the popular media of the time.
Having worked on the restoration of 4 GWR locos in the 1970's, 5164 (2-6-2), 2857 (2-8-0) and 4566 (2-6-2) and 9303/7325 (2-6-0), I must say they are not boring. The GWR were very much in the forefront of manufacturing theory with the standardisation of parts across several classes allowing greater ease of repair.
I think the main reason for GWR locomotives seeming 'boring' comes from the GWR's policy of standardisation, which gave a familial look to all the classes. Another aspect is that although the GW was not opposed to experimental locomotives (The Great Bear, the UK's first pacific type, is a prime example), mostly they concentrated on improving on what worked with their existing designs. This is most noticeable with the 4-6-0s, as when the LMSR, LNER & SR were building 4-6-2s, the GWR were more than happy with improving the Star Class, first into the Castle Class, then into the King Class, which were capable of competing with the Pacifics. I do love Great Western, but there is a certain element of sameness about some of the locomotive classes. That said, having work on the footplate of 1638 on the KESR, all that work GW engineers put into improving the Pannier Tank design over the decades really paid off. Although built under BR, 1638 and her sisters represented over three quarters of a century of development, and boy did it show. The GW might not have gone for variety, but they certainly went for quality.
The GWR is definitely a railway I’m fond of, with my favorite design from the railway being the 47xx Night Owl 2-8-0 engines, the last design made by G. J. Churchward before he was replaced with Collett, being my favorites for their unique boiler and their size. I do know a model of it made by Heljain exists, but I don’t know if it’s worth it, which is a shame since I’d love one to at least have to look at on a shelf.
Great vid Sam. Just a shame there are no RTR models of the Great bear or the Aberdare 2-6-0s on the market. And as for boring... to me it's very elegance of the standard GWR designs that makes them special. No other company made such beautiful locos... the LMS, Southern and LNER all produced soime real gut churning ugly locos on occasions, the GWR never did. Oh yeah Pannier tanks, the other company that made use of Pannier tanks were the LNWR who had 0-4-0, 0-4-2 and 0-6-0 types.
Down in Plymouth for many years the 16xx pannier tanks earned their corn running push-pull passenger trains between North Road and Saltash - sometimes beyond. It would be lovely to see one of these trains on your layout, Sam.
I'd agree, GWR 4-6-0s can all be very similar. My faves mirror yours, City of Truro, Dean Goods, but I'd add 1366 pannier, 43xx mogul, early pannier tanks, Dukedog 4-4-0, even the gas turbines..
Oh Sam the GWR locos are the most elegant machines designed by any of the pre big four or afterwards come to think of it! Clean lines, no external pipe work…. In fact my favourite steam loco the Jubilee has Great Western DNA. Great line up you put together there’s👍 Cheers John b
I like GWR locos alot. Not everyones cup of tea, which is fair. Regarding the 2800, I wish Hornby would consider creating and releasing the one that Queen used in the music video for Breakthru. I'd happily buy the Miracle Express with the stage-converted flatwagon in a pack (ala all the Beatles sets they've done). Sadly I may be the only one that would buy it, so nevermind.
I have a soft spot for big tank engines and yes, the class 72XX were big, but back in 1924 the LMS built 10 Hughes 4-6-4T locos designed by the L&YR. They were 49' 10.5" long and weighed 99.95 long tons. They were known as "Dreadnought Tanks" as they were the tank version of L&YR 4-6-0 tender locos known as "Dreadnought". The last was withdrawn in 1942 and none survived.
They built the best locomotives , Swindons workshops working to tolerances that Doncaster & pre Stanier Crewe could only dream of. the story goes that Gresley could not understand why his 4-6-2 pacifics where not as powerful or fast as the GWR's 4-6-0' so he arranged for 4472 to go to Swindon for the GWR engineers to give it the once over , they declared 60% of the locomotive as scrap because the tolerances that Doncaster employed where that poor, His A4's owe everything to the GWR & the exercise with 4472. When the LMS needed a new chief mechanical engineer , where they did they go? Swindon & recruited the best, look at the locomotives that Stanier designed for the LMS, you can take the man out of Swindon but you cant take Swindon out of the man. the black 5's / 8F's & the coronation / city class are every inch a Swindon product , all Stanier did was import Swindons knowledge to Crewe. The GWML & WCML have many similarities , the gradients , route geometry , hence why you need top end gear to deal with it & deal with it at speed.
Having grown up in Devon I have never thought the GWR as anything other than the Prime of locomotive design. I love everything from the small branchline working 14XX 0-4-2's to the iconic Dean Goods and City class. Of that list I think you saved the best for last with the Pannier tank. The first model loco I had was an old Hornby Pannier, and despite it's plastic body it had some weight to it. It even had that classic "waddle" that inspired Awdry to name the pannier Duck in his stories. I also have a soft spot for the City of Truro, it's such an iconic loco, as well as the Dean Goods, a class I can recognise from nearly any angle. I'm looking forward to these coming out in TT as I plan to base my layout around a fleet of GWR loco's.
I'm not sure people find GWR locomotives boring as much as they are bored with manufacturers constant proliferation of Great Western subjects. Many of them have been repeated multiple times by manufacturers to the degree that they probably outnumber all other company types by about 4 to 1. Unwary future hobbyists may be forgiven for thinking that the GWR was the only pre-nat railway company! Southern Railway subjects are becoming almost as prolific and many of them are so 'niche' one wonders about the reasoning behind their production. There is a whole gamut of locomotive types from companies other than GWR and Southern, many of which were more visible in everyday working than the chosen subjects of those two companies. It's been good to see the trickle of CGR subjects appear over recent years, but where is the prolific C13 - a highly visible locomotive that saw service from it's intoroduction in 1903 all the way up to last withdrawls in 1960? The prime Lancashire & Yorkshire Railway goods and sub. traffic types, too: the 484 members (!) of the Aspinall class 27 0-6-0 tender loco that lasted in from 1889 until 1962 - and it's class 28 converstion derivative; the class 23 0-6-0 saddle tank converted from the earlier Barton Wright class 25 tender loco. It was fabulous that the (old pre-Bachmann) Dapol introduced the classic L&Y Pug, but Hornby seem content to rest on (it's) novelty for sales when it really could do with a serious upgrade - particularly given the level of quality of some of their more recent 0-4-0 tanks. Also good on Bachmann to produce the L&Y class 5 2-4-2, but again, like some of the Southern types, it's a bit niche. I could go on... GNR types abound, LNWR types, too. Let's have a rest from the endless stream of GWR duplicates and a bit more of a look at some of the other Railway Companies' equally ubiquitous types that up to yet haven't been been modelled at all! As per usual... great vid, Sam - and very thought provolking! Keep 'em coming. 👍
For me it has to be the Dean Goods, which worked at the same job all its long life and looked great even when grimy from a hard day's work. As to pannier tanks 5700 all the way! There were panniers on the LNWR though they were usually referred to as Box Tanks, and the last remaining long boilered 0-6-0 which was latterly an NCB loco and is preserved on the North Tyneside Railway is also a pannier tank, though very much a Stephenson long boiler design. Thanks for the enjoyable video of GW motive power, a nice departure from reviewing the latest models.
Myself, its not that they're boring, it's more..how do I put it. Its a bit like football clubs. Its not so much the club, its the fans. Great Western Fans tend to be very...self righteous? The whole "There's two ways to do things, the wrong way and the Great Western Way" and "Gods Wonderful Railway" and all that. Yes, the GWR did a lot right. We get it. But being the teachers pet is a bit nauseating. The LNER had Gresleys flawed racehorses (monocoque cylinderblocs are great..until they break. Three cylinders with inside motion is great...until you need to maintain it) The LMS had its frankly mental lack of coordination in the 1920s and early 30s. The SR had its electrics and the even more "genius but mental" designs of Bulleid. The GWR was solid, reliable, almost perfect, which just gets irritating :P Flaws make things interesting.
I don't find GWR locomotives BORING, but something about their overall appearance just, does not sit well with me, and I've never liked them all in all. Personally I adore almost all the SR and LMS engines, and strangely I love the BR Western Region's diesel-hydraulic engines, but my all time favourite UK steam engine class is easily the Austerity 2-8-0s. Great video as always Sam!
Castle Class locos are my favourite, especially those named after Welsh castles. Apart from the preserved Pannier 9600 that used to blow smoke in my face as I stood on a footbridge a small boy as it trip-worked from the colliery where my dad worked to the exchange sidings.
Rather partial to the Highland Rly's "Castles" too. No survivors, dammit. While on 'castles', try a search for 'Dunluce Castle' ..... a superb inside cylindered 4-4-0 preserved in it's NCC maroon finery at Ulster Folk & Transport Museum, Cultra.
@stephendavies6949 9600 was the first in the Hawksworth designed 9600 series with their visibly different sloping cab which contrasts with Tyseley's other 2 panniers
@@stephenchappell7512 Yes, the 8750 variant. I was trying to explain to a friend recently why I had both a 57xx and the 8750 variant. After telling him my 8750 (renumbered to 9600) was a reminder of my happy childhood, I pointed out the differences on the models, the most obvious being the round/porthole rear cab windows on the 57xx as opposed to the asymmetric versions on the 8750. He looked at me and said, "you're an anorak!"
Standardisation under Churchward must partly account for it: a range of taper boilers with Belpaire fireboxes, standard copper capped chimneys, brass safety valve covers, low running plates and almost universal use of inside valve gear. Neither Collet nor Hawksworth departed significantly from this standard, so the 'GWR look' persisted for nearly fifty years. Of course, this is testimony to the soundness of Churchward's designs, but it does mean that many GWR locos look quite similar, especially 4-6-0s: a Star, a Saint, a Hall, a Grange, a Castle or even a King; sometimes you have to look carefully to distinguish them. By contrast, the designs of Fowler and Stanier, Maunsell and Bulleid, or Raven and Gresley are easy to tell apart. Put it another way, if you've just bought a model of a Hall, how excited are you going to get if your next loco is a Manor?
Sam interesting video, but what about the Pannier Tank’s used at Paddington, for moving coaching stock ? They had outside cylinders 1501 I think was the number a nice looking Locomotive,with outside valve gear.
Another excellent video Sam! I’m a GWR/BR WR man through and through (my Dad used to fire and drive them) so will never find them boring! Incidentally if you are looking for the largest ‘tank engine’ to run in the UK how about the LMS/LNER Garratts? I know they were articulated but as there was no separate tender for the coal and water they were technically a tank engine 😁👍
Here's a list of gwr locos I personally like: Gwr 32xx/dukedog Gwr 14xx/auto tank Gwr 3220/duke Gwr 15xx Gwr dean single Gwr dean goods Gwr armstrong Gwr no. 36 Gwr saint (atlantic and 10-wheeler) Gwr prairie (small and large)
so sorry Sam , but I will have to disagree with you on this one, BUT I dont consider GWR trains boring - its just that the modelers and the model companies seem to obsessed by anything/everything GWR !! they are falling over themself,s to produce and duplicate G.W.R stuff -and they really cant grasp or dont want to grasp that their are actually modelers who really arnt interested in the GWR scene (i include myself in that statement !) !! I have been in the hobby since the late 60,s and since then its all been about the G.W.R !! , even back then ,their was a certain monthly model railway magazine ,that for every 10 out of the 12 issues in a year ,it featured a different GWR branch line as the main "model of the month " !! even now we are unable to get a quality class 81/82/83 and 84 25kv AC loco or a first generation 25 kv E,M.U , in "OO" YET if anyone wants to model some obscure GWR steam loco that only about 5 were ever produced and plied there trade on some fictitious and obscure 2 mile long branch line in the middle of nowhere, then you stuck for choice for models !! personally ,It really wouldnt bother me if I NEVER saw a GWR model ever again !
I hope someone does a re-tooled and improved Dean Single one day; it would look beautiful. It's a shame most single drivers have never been depicted in model form, I could imagine examples like the GER P43 or the Midland Spinner being extremely popular.
City of Truro was actually preserved by the LNER - the GWR directors refused to pay for it, but luckily the LNER took it in to the old railway museum at York. (Which incidentally was a magic place, you could get into the cabs of pretty much all the exhibits, and my love of trains dates back to my dad taking me there when I was very young. I think the perception about the GWR being boring goes a bit further than just the 4-6-0s, and certainly includes all the panier tank varieties, and also the prairies. Not that many different wheel arrangements, and many of the classes looking visually similar. But in addition to the items you've identified, there are a few other things of interest to modellers; the Diesel Railcar, a lovely looking thing; and the B Set coaches and Autocoach, great ways of doing pretty prototypical running on a small layout.
Boring?! How bogus! Or at least bogus until you're on the Island of Sodor and have Duck constantly yack on about it. (But still, auto coaches, slip coaches, and even Duck's class of the 57xx pannier tank, those have always been interesting factors to me.)
Absolute Dog's 🐕🦺🦮Sam, I only like the locos with full enclosed cabs. I can't believe they made that poor bastard Engineers run those Quarter Cabs out in the cold rain and snow. 🥶😰
There was one other class of 2-8-2 for freight or goods service in the UK (if there are others please correct me). They were the LNER's P1 designed by Gresley. Only two were made and they turned out to be too powerful for the services that they were intended (heavy minerals). They were very similar in concept to American 2-8-2 used in coal trains in between 1900 to 1920s.
Model manufacturers should consider producing pre grouping GWR locos such as the Aberdares, Metro tanks, Buffalo tank engines and even the 517s which could be built as saddle tanks right through their various rebuilds to being almost identical to 14xx tanks.
I’ll grant that a lot of GWR tender engines are kinda dull (especially compared to the other members of the big four), but NO ONE can touch them on tank engines. The Pannier and 14xx are iconic, and the Large Prairie is probably the most perfectly proportioned tank engine ever built.
I was wondering if there is a starter kit for GWR engines, im just getting into model trains and i love the color scheme and history of the great western.
Excellent GWR beauty parade! I think the Dean Single would be greatly improved with a more accurate front pony truck - how about 3D printing one as a new Sam project?? Alternatively, you be more ambitious and print an entire new one!!
The GWR for me did always have some of my favourite loco designs. Maybe its my west country heritage at play! Especially the tank engines. However at the risk of having an "um actually" moment one of my favorite tank engines is the LSWR H16, a 4-6-2T made of goods work in London however it did see some passenger services. The reason why I bring them up is they are slightly larger than the 72xx class (an extra 4ft in length and 4 long tons in weight). But other than that they're very unqiue locomotives being painted in green while they worked for the Southen Railway and being a pacific tank engine is something else as well.
Post grouping they built good loco's but I do find them dull and tedious, when I was young GWR layouts were everywhere at every exhibition which perhaps is another reason I'm not interested in them. The Lynton and Barnstaple, Manning Wardle 2 6 2 Tank engines were Pannier tanks too (Look at a head on view)
What a great selection. I think the original saying was, “ oh no, not another GWR “ and was aimed at the model manufacturers, as they were always producing a GWR locomotive, it was rare ( and still to this day ) to see the other companies being modelled. Southern, Eastern, Northern were sadly left out for many years. And basically because of the configurations. As another commenter mentioned, in N gauge it is even worse. Diesel and electric fare a little better, but electric are way way behind. Especially southern electric. Again like the GWR , all say the southern electric are samey, which is also a big no. But unlike GWR , some groups are left out in the cold. Such a shame. But a good video. I like the tank engines, the 1600 being the second , with the prairies being first. What a selection. On any model layout I build, the trains I run are from any region. 😎🥳🚦
Hi Sam, I think I've mentioned this before by I am a huge GWR fan, especially as I live next to the GWML and are a couple of stations from Didcot where the Great Western Society are based. I have a couple of comments to make about this video. First you mentioned that the Dean Goods were used by the ROD (Railway Operating Department) during the First World War. Why did you not also mention that the 28xx was also used by them, as well as the War Department in World War II. A few if these were lost at sea during transportation overseas. Another thing you said was that the green was similar to the British Railways green. However was it not British Railways that adopted the GWR Brunswick Green, in the same way BR adopted other features from the other Big 3 when they standardised their fleet. Therefore that should have been expressed the other way round
Great video. If you're including the 1600 class, why not also the gas turbine? Also delivered after BR arrived, but hey what? Boring old diesel electrics? Let's do it the GW way with effectively a jet engine on wheels!
nice one...good joyce of subject......and you got it quite right.....i used to think GWR was all a bit samy and overrepresented in the past...but they were a very well ran railway, with very efficient stock and locos.....so......well done...i've got a few of those you showed, but never got round to get one of those big tank locos.....but hey....
A great overview video. Though I would like to mention that the Dean Goods were used heavily in Mid and South Wales on passenger trains, and that there were some Kitson Built Industrial Pannier tanks.
I don't find GWR locomotives themselves boring, far from it. I can sort of see reason 2 though with my local preserved line, the SVR. If they're running GWR stuff on the timetable I won't avoid taking the dog for a walk from Arley to Highley and back, which I do a few times a month all year round. But, if the timetable has something else running I will be more likely to choose to walk along the river next to the railway rather than take to Eymore Wood and walk to Trimpley; which has the railway out of sight most of the time but you can still hear them. There is a fourth reason too consider, and its not so much the locomotives, its the over saturation of GWR layouts in general. You can go to most model exhibitions and the majority of steam layouts will be Western based, it just gets boring seeing the same thing done a different way. Personally I hold GWR layouts in the same non-interest as current day layouts, I just walk past them thesedays, no matter how much effort the builder has put in. I'd literally rather watch the kids playing with a Thomas layout.
GWR isnt boring, British locomotives are boring in general. That isn´t to say they look bad but all of them kinda look bland and dull, while Continental European loco´s and American Loco´s have alot of variety within their ranks.
They've always looked nice, but really really samey and just lacking individuality, especially later on. Good on them for finding something that worked though. I guess the appearance is inevitable when you try to standardize parts.
For me personnally its not a specific GWR issue, I find the locomotives without moving rods/valve gear to be quite mhea. And yes that does include the diesels & electrics so Gronks and other modern engines with "movement" are a stand out for me.
The Great Western Railway was anything but boring. Unfortunately it pales in comparison to the glory of the mighty Southern Railway. After all Summer Comes Soonest in The South.
We can thank Woodham's scrapyard, Barry Island, South Wales for the proliferation of GWR locos (and Southern examples to a lesser extent) in preservation.
God's Wonderful Railway!
YEP IF THE YARD HAD OF BEEN IN THE NORTH HE'D PROBBABLY HAVE SAID LMS LNER IN THE SOUTH SOUTHERN , YED DAI DID SCRAP A LOCO EVERYONE WANTED TO KEEP LEAVING NONE OF A VERY IMPORTANT TYPE IN EXISTANCE THAT ANGERED PRESERVATIONISTS
The GWR was far from "boring". They were perhaps the most innovative railway back in its time.
Truer words were never spoken
It migth be true that they are samey, but in actual terms thats standartising the design approach
@@True_NOONabsolutely, by the start of the Second World War, the gwr had about 20 boiler types to maintain. The lner, a much poorer company, had 163. As boring as standardisation may look aesthetically, it makes great pragmatic sense for cost savings and spares, enabling a greater number of locos available for traffic
@@TheSaint491 The Gas Water & Rust is boring. Banging on about innovation. The Southern were putting in electrics, when GWR were still building kettles on wheels.
@@paulbrien4817 that's one way of disrespecting the late great Isambard Kingdom Brunel's fantastic work
There are two ways of doing things: the wrong way, or the Great Western Way. The RIGHT way. And I'm from the Great Western Region, so hearing that their boaring is a great-insult. *PUN-intended*
"there are two ways of doing things," said Duck "The Great Western way or the wrong way, I'm Great Western and--"
"Don't we know it" the other groaned
I'm also from the great Western region and I love their locos so idk what people are complaining about
We made far better Loco’s and we got screwed over by the labour government of the time
@@Butch1086Oh for pete's sake, kindly keep politics out of it.
To quote from a book, GWR Engineering manufacturing clearances started where other companies finished.....
I loved the Lord of the Isles as a child, and I still love it.
And to me it's far more Steampunk than the monstrosities we saw the other day.
The GWR always had the most fancy engines of the railway companies of Britain, whereas the rest concentrated on streamlining (A4's Duchess's and Battle of Britain's on the other 3 come to mind) and speed. GW tanks are always a favourite of mine, such as the Panniers, 14xx's, and the Prairie's.
Thanks Sam, certainly my weakness here. City class takes it from your offering. GWR engineers were so innovative and great problem solvers. For sheer attractiveness you can't beat a 14/58xx, although I do love a Prairie. So many interesting and graceful locos to come out of the GWR trinity of designers. They are enduring and were the proto 'standard' locomotives.
There were some less graceful designs too. 56xx 0-6-2 springs to mind..
Functional!@@garagewindowrailway
Fascinating overview Sam, and actually quite a nice addition after having watched a documentary about Brunel. The GWR locos certainly were different. The likeability of many of them could be up for debate perhaps but you certainly can't blame them for not being distinctive. Winner for us: Pannier.
One aspect of historic British locos always springing to mind is how intricate their liveries were/are. It must have been a nightmare to keep them clean somewhat.
If we only could be modelling broad gauge as well... Perhaps that would be an awesome challenge for 3D printing hahah. Thanks for the captivating résumé Sam. Cheerio.
Thanks very much Linda, that's great to hear! And great call on the Pannier - such classics those! You're right about the liveries... they really went to some trouble to keep everything looking elegant!
Thanks for watching, Sam :)
For me, the two main reasons would be:
- Overrepresentation in preservation, as you said
- The GWR heavily relied on standardisation like BR would later, meaning they tended to use similar parts and have similar appearances. To the untrained eye, this can create a lot of "sameness" compared to other companies of the age.
But you brought along some wonderful examples of the variety within GWR engines, and TBH they're probably my favourites over the castles and dukedogs.
When you look at the three other big four companies, they all had at least one visually distinctive express passenger loco (LMS-Streamline Coronation, LNER-A4 Pacific, Southern-Unrebuilt Merchant Navy), but the rest of their fleets were generally rather samey. The GWR never really had a visually distinctive/streaminlined express passenger loco. It's one of the reasons I think GWR is thought of as boring. However, the streamlined AEC railcars were definitely interesting. I'm surprised Sam didn't include those in this video.
Thanks for a really enjoyable video Sam.
I grew up in Somerset, a few miles from Bristol so have always been a great admirer of the world's greatest ever Engineer, Isambard Kingdom Brunel and his acheivements, such as the Clifton Suspension Bridge and SS Great Britain which I saw on a regular basis growing up.
And of course the GWR. Like the Romans Brunel laid straight lines, the Paddington to Temple Meads line is the best in the country which is why BR used it for their trials of the HST. And his bridges and tunnels are marvels of engineering. He laid down a legacy of good design and efficiency at the GWR. And the most famous Chief mechanical Engineers were all trained or influenced by GWR.
There's no question that God's Wonderful Railway, as it was known, was the best run and most efficient of the big four and particularly in the early years had the best designed locos, as shown when Caerphilly Castle outperformed Gresleys's A1 Flying Scotsman in the exchange trials.
Churchward's 1901 Outline scheme was a big part of that, proposing just 6 loco designs, using 5 wheel configurations, with many parts being interchangeable. This was more efficient and saved money. It was decades before the other three companies followed suit. Later locos were all evolutions, rather than completely new designs, which again is very efficient.
The downside of that for modellers is that there is less variety than the other companies, particularly as you point out the 4-6-0s and 0-6-0 tanks. The lack of livery options is another fair point. As a result I have fewer GWR locos in my collection than any of the others.
The LNER, especially has far more different designs and liveries available to modellers, e.g. Seven (!) different liveries available for the gorgeous A4s.
That said I do like the GWR tank engines and the 0-6-0 panniers are iconic, partly thanks to Duck. The Hawkwoods are lovely coaches too.
There are some good GWR engines particular the pregouping locos and the Prairie classes of loco, lets not forget the Great Bear either. According Wikipedia, The King class of locomtive had more tractive effort than a 9F 40,300 lbf compared to 39,667 even after overhaul it was still 33lbf superior to the 9F so in the terms of tractive effort maybe enthuasiasts need to relook at things.
As for loads of GWR locos in the preservation scene maybe thats thanks to Barry scrapyard for which we should be grateful. Do not forget enthusiasts back then were desperate to get their hands on any engine!
Ahh the Prairies - should have squeezed one of those in thinking about it! Great bear is one I'd love to see one! It is indeed thanks to Barry - though no complaints from me!
Thanks for watching, Sam :)
I find European stuff more fun and that's what I mostly model as escapism having travelled and lived abroad a fair bit. But there's nothing more magical than sending GWR Burton Agnes Hall round the track for purely personal reasons - my Dad travelled to his university interview in a regular service hauled by BAH in the sixties, complete with dining car serving teacakes. My kids have now seen it with said grandad at Didcot railway centre (and they can't believe he actually took it as a normal train). So for me it's all about the emotional connections rather than anything else.
Ahh excellent - I'll have to start showing more of those models at some point then! And thanks for sharing - there certainly is magic in the Hall class!
Thanks for watching, Sam :)
"magic in the Hall Class" was that pun intentional. (:@@SamsTrains
First I must nail my colours to the mast. I volunteer at an ex-GWR heritage railway and my Great Grandfather was a GWR railwayman at Bristol for his entire working life, and I have a preference for GWR trains both 1:1 scale and models. Nevertheless there was a sameness about the later products of Swindon works, because they had designed a fleet of locomotives that had the required performance, and until WW2 and later there was no need to change. "If it ain't broke don't fix it!"
However although this does not relate to coaching stock. It was said, with a certain degree of truth, that no GWR train had two carriages the same. Look at any picture of their trains from the 1930s and there is a wonderful mix of coaching stock on all but the most prestigious trains. Flat-ended, bow-ended, 57', 63', even 70' stock, designed by Collett, Churchward and right back to Dean. My complaint is that typical formations cannot be modeled because the stock is not available. To run my layout as a typical secondary line I need half a dozen locos at most, all small to medium sized, but probably 20 different carriages.
As an n gauge modeller the locos can be found, but not the rolling stock to give the character I want.
They are not!!! The 1400s, hall classes and that and the 6400s are like some of the best machines mads
I can think of a larger tank engine! Bulleid's Leader has it beat, although I guess it's not what most people would think of when you say "tank engine."
And if GW locos are all the same, what about the LMS, with 800-some odd Black 5s, 181? Jubilees and 71 Rebuilt Scots, all of which have a very close family resemblance. And 800+ 8Fs! And of those all the 5s and 8Fs were black
Panniers that are Not Great Western...hmmm...if you visit the North Tyneside Railway ,in its associated museum is a " long boiler " type 0-6-0 with Panniers, worked at a local colliery. And if you visit Trainworld next time you're in Brussels, you can see a Belpaire designed outside frame 0-6-0 with a square chimney! I'm not making it up, honestly! Thanks for another great video. Boredom is a state of mind, only boring people would find GW engines boring.
Charles Collett's design language is too consistant for its own good! All his locos look like they're just resized variants of the same basic shape, with a lot of parts and details shared between them. This lack of variation, combined with the relatively boring liveries (made to seem even boring-er because of BR green and black) results in a range of engines that don't have much distinctiveness or unique styling. Add to that the fact that many of Collett's 'new' locos were incremental updates to existing Churchward designs, and you get a lot of visual sameness across the entire post-1923 Great Western era.
I personally like the GWR aesthetic, but it does seem to be a case of "given the opportunity, engineers will optimize the fun out of their machines".
its mainly because of Barry scrapyard that theres so many GWR locos, being based in Wales and taking so long to get round to cutting up the locos meant they survived or so long, also pity its not easy to get hold of broad gauge stuff easily because they really were elegant
Barry scrap yard, most preserved locomotives ended up at Barry scrapyard, but he didn’t brake them up unlike other scrap yards, Barry scrap yard was the mainly used by the GWR region, as such this is why we have so many GWR locomotives.
GWR were the masters of Standardization. They had 12 boiler types compared to groups like the LNER and LMS who had over a 100 each and the logic of being able to pick a part and know it will fit every time really put them ahead of the rest. (And this is coming from a guy who is a Southern railway collector). But it did mean that their locomotives do look the same with few differences. They did try a Pacific called "The Great Bear" but it was more a show horse than a work horse.
They really were - way ahead of their time! I bet they were the most efficient at a guess?
Thanks for watching, Sam :)
Which is why the GWR was a profitable company and resisted nationalisation.
@@stephendavies6949 Spot on. All nationalising meant for the GWR was a few new areas added to their control.
🇺🇦
Hi Sam.
Doesn't matter if it's black, green or pink with purple dots. It's a steamer and no steam loco is boring.
Stay safe.
DELPH JUNCTION
Honestly I'd say the GWR was far from boring. They genuinely have some of the best looking and interesting Locos ever made.
There Are Not Boring Western's, People Don't Want To Learn About History & More. Witch I Lo❤e The Great Western Trains Like Those. I Know They Are Great Western's 👍
Maybe you could have included a GWR 14xx with ab Autocoach, I cant think off another railway that had anything to compete with that !
Would be interesting to see a Class 2221 4-4-2 County tank in model form, perhaps one for you to do Sam🤔
Why so many Great Western were preserved? It has to do with the spirit of Isambard Brunel who's still around whispering "preserve!"
There is a family resemblance, but that is the fun of it. You get to look and try to figure out what you are looking at from the tiny details.
Yeah I agree - I've always loved the family look... wonderful!
Thanks for watching, Sam :)
Born and grew up in The Valleys. I can remember the end of steam, the Panniers, the big Prairies small ones. So first choice for me in models has always been GWR. Don't get me wrong, I love all things steam, but I'm dyed in the wool GWR.
The 2800 class was the engine used as the "Miracle Express" in the bands music video for their track Breakthru.
Roger Taylor had the idea, and filmed at Nene Valley in 1989.
Oh wow I didn't realise that - that's very cool, thanks for the fun fact! :D
Thanks for watching, Sam :)
@@SamsTrains
The loco in question is the one on static display at Didcot
Quite a good idea to make a documentary about the locos in your collection rather than a review of a new model complaining about the price! Not all Pannier Tanks are created equal. I found the old Hornby one runs better than the modern DCC one! You might like to create a video enhtitled, "Battle of the Pannier Tanks". Which model is the Sam's Trains winner?
I’m not a huge fan of the GWR, as you said the designs are often very similar and people do go on about them a bit. But I won’t deny that some of their locomotives a beautiful. City of Truro is probably my favourite.
GWR loco’s are never boring. 4-6-0 or not. GWR loco’s are some of my favourite.
GWR stuff is far from boring. In my work, restoring and preserving antique model trains, one of my 'things' is to squeeze better and better performance out of 70+ year old locomotives. Lionel O gauge engines that the old instructions called for three-four cars tops regularly pull fifteen or twenty for me. The GWR was doing similar. Minor changes to existing designs. They were innovators, pushing the envelope. While the LNER went all in on 4-6-2s, and statesde we had 4-8-4s, the GWR just kept improving the 4-6-0s. I've read about the optical frame alignment Swindon was using, how free rolling the locos were. Doesn't sound big, but its less power wasted to friction, all those minor improvements add up. I think they call it 'marginal gains', and yes they do add up. So for a nerd like my, the GWR really is Gods Wonderful Railway.
See the reason why the GWR is so good is also why it isn’t interesting. Their standardization is probably the most uniform of all the big 4, but that’s somewhat the problem.
A lot of GWR Engines follow this formula:
Tapered boilers, belpaire fireboxes, no domes, same safety valve bonnet, same standard parts.
For cost saving, it’s brilliant. With variety, it’s like someone saying that their favorite color is dark green and they show off different shades of dark green. Sure, minor differences, but it’s still dark green.
Hi Sam, a great video my favourite is the 15XX, designed by GWR without footplates but finished built in BR days an 0-6-0 Pannier Tank with full WALSCHAERTS VALVE GEAR and I have models in OO and O gauge kit built. I also have one on order from Rapido in 00 BR lined livery and is due out this month. There were only ten produced in the Class. Sam you must get one and give it a review ! Regards from Ron 👍
A good video! I like Pannier tanks, My first 'proper' electric train set was the Hornby pick up good set, that I got for Christmas c1975/6. Also a fave because one featured in the TV Series 'Flockton Flyer'... And also in the original and best film vesrion og The Railway Children, but that was in the fictitious GN&SR Umber livery!
There are few things I like more than emerald green paint and brass on a steam loco, and Western engines are very well proportioned. They definitely aren't boring, although they are rather uniform, with so many standardized features and design practices. You can generally tell a Western design at a glance, the dainty tapered boilers, the distinctive safety valve covers, and the whole aesthetic is very unified.
Hi Sam.
Glad to see you sticking up for 'God's Wonderful Railway'. A shame you omitted to discuss GWR's Saddle Tanks as they played a useful part in shunting on the tight curves of the dockside lines.
According to a couple of historical GWR books I possess (plus the J.H.Russell books), the name 'Lord Of The Isles' did not exist in a 4-2-2 format but did exist in the 2-2-2 broad gauge format. I purchased brass name and number plates and converted my 'LOTI' to 'Crusader' as that particular loco actually existed in the 4-2-2 format.
Also, IMHO, people not liking the look of the 'City Of Truro' need to pay a visit to Specsavers 😁. I cannot understand why anyone who appreciates beauty would poo-poo the Truro; they're probably diesel lovers.
Ciao.
Paul. 👍❤
*Great Way Round
Lord of the Isles was a Dean 4-2-2, no. 3046
@@AndreiTupolev
Hi Andrei.
Not according to my GWR history books that provide a list of the William Dean Achilles Class 4-2-2s and their corresponding numbers. Under the name 'Lord Of The Isles', it is listed as a Broad Gauge 2-2-2 that was designed by Daniel Gooch and came under the umbrella of the 'Iron Duke' Class (later converted to 4-2-2 that continued on as a Broad Gauge loco). It was withdrawn from service in 1884 and was stored in Swindon railway works until it was scrapped in 1906 due to lack of space.
Paul.
Thanks Paul - yeah that's very true, I suppose the saddle tank should have had an honourable mention, as they're quite unique looking for GWR locos. That's very interesting about Lord of the Isles - is that really true?!?!
Thanks for watching, Sam :)
@@SamsTrains Wikipedia has a list of the Dean Singles, and Lord of the Isles is no. 3046
Grew up next to LNER metals also quite near LMS, in the 50’s/60s.
All the big four were good, we can have our favourite, but there isn’t a best.
I have approx 40 locos 16 are GWR about 8 LMS, and 8 LNER, 4 BR, and 4 Southern. I love them all!
Fantastic video Sam! I absolutely loved it! You've single-handedly managed to sum up everything I love about the great Western Railway! What a stunner that 'City of Truro' loco is! Any clue where I could find one for a relatively decent price? I've been after one for a while now. Keep up the good work! :)
I have seen City of Truro and City of Bath on Ray Heard's stand (Newton Abbot Model and Toy fair, Sunday September 17th)
I'm from the Southern area. Even so, I love The GWR locos. I have GWR locos for my layout. The Dean Single is a beautiful loco.
That's good to hear Duncan, thank you for sharing! Got to love those Dean Singles!
Thanks for watching, Sam :)
As a committed Diesel fan I may be out of my depth here, but I think the situation isn’t so much “GWR locos are dull”, but “I always see models and layouts of the GWR”.
I think this is also a bit of a self-fulfilling situation in that lots of GWR layouts are made (because lots of stock is available), so model companies make lots of stock and so on and so on.
All that being said, I personally really like the GWR Castles and I am glad so many GWR locos were saved due to them ending up at a certain Welsh scrap yard.
hahaha yeah that's a very common comment too actually... and that's an interesting thought, maybe there is a bit of snowballing going on there?
Thanks for watching, Sam :)
Yep. Dai Woodham was a accidental preservation hero
I think the GER Class A55 was probably the biggest tank engine to run on Britains railways. 0-10-0 wheel arrangement. 😊
Ahh interesting! Wonder if that was longer? I know the 72xx was heavier than that... but if the A55 was longer then it could be considered the biggest!
Thanks for watching, Sam :)
Great video Sam, the older locos have so much character, a bygone era of steam that must be preserved.
Thanks a lot David - I think so too - particularly those two pre-grouping ones!
Thanks for watching, Sam :)
You missed out the 14XX! Very pretty!
A nice video, and since you said you couldn't think of any larger tank engines, I have three that may fit the bill. First is the GER A55 0-10-0t, followed by the GCR 8H 0-8-4t, running along an LBSCR L 4-6-4t. I don't have specifics on these engines to say if they are or aren't larger than the GWR 72xx 2-8-2t, and there are other tank engines in the UK and this comment section that are themselves pretty large, but I do hope this small note does you a good one, same as this video has done for us.
Yup the GER A55 Decapod is 56ft in length whereas the 72xx is 44ft in length.
Would love a GER A55 in 00 gauge
Great Western followed the meme of standard parts, you could mix boilers, fireboxes, wheel sizes, to make a different classes, but standardized parts was the key. You could turn out a prototype quicker because the parts were all proven. And LMS inherited William Stanier as their Chief Mechanical Engineer who learnt his trade in the workshops of the GWR, and took that on to the BR Standards!
That classic great western green and red definitely looks beutiful on locomotives.
I think it does too! :D
Personally, I like the GWR locos but their design tend to be repetitive to the point that moguls, 4-6-0’s, and 4-4-0’s aesthetically look similar. The same applies to most tank engines usually resembling prairies or pannier tanks, mostly pre-grouping GWR locos gave a distinctive appearance
I think the other factor is that GWR locos never benefitted from the glamour of the "Race to the North" of the inter war years that LNER and LMS locos benefitted from.
OK, not the "Races to the North", but the GW had the Ocean Liner races to Plymouth with the LSWR, right up until the Salisbury crash of 1906 put the kybosh on such racing.
@@TheHoveHeretic As you said that died out in 1906 and became irrelevant with grouping, whereas LMS and LNER continued to compete for the fastest service to the north creating such icons as the A4s and Princess Coronation Class. GWR simply never had anything that captured the countries imagination in the age of the newsreel which was the popular media of the time.
I Wouldn't Be Lying If I Said Fredrick Hawksworth Engines Are My Favorite Ones. The County Class And The 94xx Pannier Tank Engines Are Up There
Having worked on the restoration of 4 GWR locos in the 1970's, 5164 (2-6-2), 2857 (2-8-0) and 4566 (2-6-2) and 9303/7325 (2-6-0), I must say they are not boring. The GWR were very much in the forefront of manufacturing theory with the standardisation of parts across several classes allowing greater ease of repair.
I think the main reason for GWR locomotives seeming 'boring' comes from the GWR's policy of standardisation, which gave a familial look to all the classes.
Another aspect is that although the GW was not opposed to experimental locomotives (The Great Bear, the UK's first pacific type, is a prime example), mostly they concentrated on improving on what worked with their existing designs. This is most noticeable with the 4-6-0s, as when the LMSR, LNER & SR were building 4-6-2s, the GWR were more than happy with improving the Star Class, first into the Castle Class, then into the King Class, which were capable of competing with the Pacifics.
I do love Great Western, but there is a certain element of sameness about some of the locomotive classes. That said, having work on the footplate of 1638 on the KESR, all that work GW engineers put into improving the Pannier Tank design over the decades really paid off. Although built under BR, 1638 and her sisters represented over three quarters of a century of development, and boy did it show.
The GW might not have gone for variety, but they certainly went for quality.
The GWR is definitely a railway I’m fond of, with my favorite design from the railway being the 47xx Night Owl 2-8-0 engines, the last design made by G. J. Churchward before he was replaced with Collett, being my favorites for their unique boiler and their size. I do know a model of it made by Heljain exists, but I don’t know if it’s worth it, which is a shame since I’d love one to at least have to look at on a shelf.
plot twist: it was Gordon who said it
Great vid Sam. Just a shame there are no RTR models of the Great bear or the Aberdare 2-6-0s on the market. And as for boring... to me it's very elegance of the standard GWR designs that makes them special. No other company made such beautiful locos... the LMS, Southern and LNER all produced soime real gut churning ugly locos on occasions, the GWR never did.
Oh yeah Pannier tanks, the other company that made use of Pannier tanks were the LNWR who had 0-4-0, 0-4-2 and 0-6-0 types.
Down in Plymouth for many years the 16xx pannier tanks earned their corn running push-pull passenger trains between North Road and Saltash - sometimes beyond. It would be lovely to see one of these trains on your layout, Sam.
The 1600 class were never equipped for push pull. It would be a fairly similar but larger wheeled 6400 on the Saltash services.
I'd agree, GWR 4-6-0s can all be very similar. My faves mirror yours, City of Truro, Dean Goods, but I'd add 1366 pannier, 43xx mogul, early pannier tanks, Dukedog 4-4-0, even the gas turbines..
Oh Sam the GWR locos are the most elegant machines designed by any of the pre big four or afterwards come to think of it!
Clean lines, no external pipe work….
In fact my favourite steam loco the Jubilee has Great Western DNA.
Great line up you put together there’s👍
Cheers John b
I like GWR locos alot. Not everyones cup of tea, which is fair. Regarding the 2800, I wish Hornby would consider creating and releasing the one that Queen used in the music video for Breakthru. I'd happily buy the Miracle Express with the stage-converted flatwagon in a pack (ala all the Beatles sets they've done). Sadly I may be the only one that would buy it, so nevermind.
I have a soft spot for big tank engines and yes, the class 72XX were big, but back in 1924 the LMS built 10 Hughes 4-6-4T locos designed by the L&YR. They were 49' 10.5" long and weighed 99.95 long tons. They were known as "Dreadnought Tanks" as they were the tank version of L&YR 4-6-0 tender locos known as "Dreadnought". The last was withdrawn in 1942 and none survived.
They built the best locomotives , Swindons workshops working to tolerances that Doncaster & pre Stanier Crewe could only dream of. the story goes that Gresley could not understand why his 4-6-2 pacifics where not as powerful or fast as the GWR's 4-6-0' so he arranged for 4472 to go to Swindon for the GWR engineers to give it the once over , they declared 60% of the locomotive as scrap because the tolerances that Doncaster employed where that poor, His A4's owe everything to the GWR & the exercise with 4472.
When the LMS needed a new chief mechanical engineer , where they did they go? Swindon & recruited the best, look at the locomotives that Stanier designed for the LMS, you can take the man out of Swindon but you cant take Swindon out of the man. the black 5's / 8F's & the coronation / city class are every inch a Swindon product , all Stanier did was import Swindons knowledge to Crewe. The GWML & WCML have many similarities , the gradients , route geometry , hence why you need top end gear to deal with it & deal with it at speed.
Having grown up in Devon I have never thought the GWR as anything other than the Prime of locomotive design. I love everything from the small branchline working 14XX 0-4-2's to the iconic Dean Goods and City class.
Of that list I think you saved the best for last with the Pannier tank. The first model loco I had was an old Hornby Pannier, and despite it's plastic body it had some weight to it. It even had that classic "waddle" that inspired Awdry to name the pannier Duck in his stories. I also have a soft spot for the City of Truro, it's such an iconic loco, as well as the Dean Goods, a class I can recognise from nearly any angle.
I'm looking forward to these coming out in TT as I plan to base my layout around a fleet of GWR loco's.
I'm not sure people find GWR locomotives boring as much as they are bored with manufacturers constant proliferation of Great Western subjects. Many of them have been repeated multiple times by manufacturers to the degree that they probably outnumber all other company types by about 4 to 1.
Unwary future hobbyists may be forgiven for thinking that the GWR was the only pre-nat railway company!
Southern Railway subjects are becoming almost as prolific and many of them are so 'niche' one wonders about the reasoning behind their production.
There is a whole gamut of locomotive types from companies other than GWR and Southern, many of which were more visible in everyday working than the chosen subjects of those two companies.
It's been good to see the trickle of CGR subjects appear over recent years, but where is the prolific C13 - a highly visible locomotive that saw service from it's intoroduction in 1903 all the way up to last withdrawls in 1960?
The prime Lancashire & Yorkshire Railway goods and sub. traffic types, too: the 484 members (!) of the Aspinall class 27 0-6-0 tender loco that lasted in from 1889 until 1962 - and it's class 28 converstion derivative; the class 23 0-6-0 saddle tank converted from the earlier Barton Wright class 25 tender loco.
It was fabulous that the (old pre-Bachmann) Dapol introduced the classic L&Y Pug, but Hornby seem content to rest on (it's) novelty for sales when it really could do with a serious upgrade - particularly given the level of quality of some of their more recent 0-4-0 tanks. Also good on Bachmann to produce the L&Y class 5 2-4-2, but again, like some of the Southern types, it's a bit niche.
I could go on... GNR types abound, LNWR types, too. Let's have a rest from the endless stream of GWR duplicates and a bit more of a look at some of the other Railway Companies' equally ubiquitous types that up to yet haven't been been modelled at all!
As per usual... great vid, Sam - and very thought provolking! Keep 'em coming. 👍
For me it has to be the Dean Goods, which worked at the same job all its long life and looked great even when grimy from a hard day's work. As to pannier tanks 5700 all the way! There were panniers on the LNWR though they were usually referred to as Box Tanks, and the last remaining long boilered 0-6-0 which was latterly an NCB loco and is preserved on the North Tyneside Railway is also a pannier tank, though very much a Stephenson long boiler design.
Thanks for the enjoyable video of GW motive power, a nice departure from reviewing the latest models.
Missed my favourite GWR class 14XX autotank such an unusual 0-4-2T, for an larger tank loco I found an 0-10-0T, the GER Class A55
Myself, its not that they're boring, it's more..how do I put it. Its a bit like football clubs. Its not so much the club, its the fans. Great Western Fans tend to be very...self righteous? The whole "There's two ways to do things, the wrong way and the Great Western Way" and "Gods Wonderful Railway" and all that. Yes, the GWR did a lot right. We get it. But being the teachers pet is a bit nauseating.
The LNER had Gresleys flawed racehorses (monocoque cylinderblocs are great..until they break. Three cylinders with inside motion is great...until you need to maintain it) The LMS had its frankly mental lack of coordination in the 1920s and early 30s. The SR had its electrics and the even more "genius but mental" designs of Bulleid. The GWR was solid, reliable, almost perfect, which just gets irritating :P Flaws make things interesting.
I don't find GWR locomotives BORING, but something about their overall appearance just, does not sit well with me, and I've never liked them all in all. Personally I adore almost all the SR and LMS engines, and strangely I love the BR Western Region's diesel-hydraulic engines, but my all time favourite UK steam engine class is easily the Austerity 2-8-0s.
Great video as always Sam!
Castle Class locos are my favourite, especially those named after Welsh castles. Apart from the preserved Pannier 9600 that used to blow smoke in my face as I stood on a footbridge a small boy as it trip-worked from the colliery where my dad worked to the exchange sidings.
Rather partial to the Highland Rly's "Castles" too. No survivors, dammit. While on 'castles', try a search for 'Dunluce Castle' ..... a superb inside cylindered 4-4-0 preserved in it's NCC maroon finery at Ulster Folk & Transport Museum, Cultra.
@stephendavies6949
9600 was the first in the Hawksworth designed 9600 series with their visibly different sloping cab which contrasts
with Tyseley's other 2 panniers
@@stephenchappell7512 Yes, the 8750 variant. I was trying to explain to a friend recently why I had both a 57xx and the 8750 variant. After telling him my 8750 (renumbered to 9600) was a reminder of my happy childhood, I pointed out the differences on the models, the most obvious being the round/porthole rear cab windows on the 57xx as opposed to the asymmetric versions on the 8750. He looked at me and said, "you're an anorak!"
@@stephendavies6949
Nothing wrong with that 😁
@@TheHoveHeretic
It's a pity that Dunluce Castle has remained a static as it was the Irish version of the Fowler Scots
Standardisation under Churchward must partly account for it: a range of taper boilers with Belpaire fireboxes, standard copper capped chimneys, brass safety valve covers, low running plates and almost universal use of inside valve gear. Neither Collet nor Hawksworth departed significantly from this standard, so the 'GWR look' persisted for nearly fifty years. Of course, this is testimony to the soundness of Churchward's designs, but it does mean that many GWR locos look quite similar, especially 4-6-0s: a Star, a Saint, a Hall, a Grange, a Castle or even a King; sometimes you have to look carefully to distinguish them. By contrast, the designs of Fowler and Stanier, Maunsell and Bulleid, or Raven and Gresley are easy to tell apart. Put it another way, if you've just bought a model of a Hall, how excited are you going to get if your next loco is a Manor?
Sam interesting video, but what about the Pannier Tank’s used at Paddington, for moving coaching stock ? They had outside cylinders 1501 I think was the number a nice looking Locomotive,with outside valve gear.
Another excellent video Sam! I’m a GWR/BR WR man through and through (my Dad used to fire and drive them) so will never find them boring! Incidentally if you are looking for the largest ‘tank engine’ to run in the UK how about the LMS/LNER Garratts? I know they were articulated but as there was no separate tender for the coal and water they were technically a tank engine 😁👍
Here's a list of gwr locos I personally like:
Gwr 32xx/dukedog
Gwr 14xx/auto tank
Gwr 3220/duke
Gwr 15xx
Gwr dean single
Gwr dean goods
Gwr armstrong
Gwr no. 36
Gwr saint (atlantic and 10-wheeler)
Gwr prairie (small and large)
so sorry Sam , but I will have to disagree with you on this one, BUT I dont consider GWR trains boring - its just that the modelers and the model companies seem to obsessed by anything/everything GWR !! they are falling over themself,s to produce and duplicate G.W.R stuff -and they really cant grasp or dont want to grasp that their are actually modelers who really arnt interested in the GWR scene (i include myself in that statement !) !! I have been in the hobby since the late 60,s and since then its all been about the G.W.R !! , even back then ,their was a certain monthly model railway magazine ,that for every 10 out of the 12 issues in a year ,it featured a different GWR branch line as the main "model of the month " !! even now we are unable to get a quality class 81/82/83 and 84 25kv AC loco or a first generation 25 kv E,M.U , in "OO" YET if anyone wants to model some obscure GWR steam loco that only about 5 were ever produced and plied there trade on some fictitious and obscure 2 mile long branch line in the middle of nowhere, then you stuck for choice for models !! personally ,It really wouldnt bother me if I NEVER saw a GWR model ever again !
I hope someone does a re-tooled and improved Dean Single one day; it would look beautiful. It's a shame most single drivers have never been depicted in model form, I could imagine examples like the GER P43 or the Midland Spinner being extremely popular.
City of Truro was actually preserved by the LNER - the GWR directors refused to pay for it, but luckily the LNER took it in to the old railway museum at York. (Which incidentally was a magic place, you could get into the cabs of pretty much all the exhibits, and my love of trains dates back to my dad taking me there when I was very young.
I think the perception about the GWR being boring goes a bit further than just the 4-6-0s, and certainly includes all the panier tank varieties, and also the prairies. Not that many different wheel arrangements, and many of the classes looking visually similar. But in addition to the items you've identified, there are a few other things of interest to modellers; the Diesel Railcar, a lovely looking thing; and the B Set coaches and Autocoach, great ways of doing pretty prototypical running on a small layout.
*Demonic* Who said there boring?
*Background zooms-out revealing rail-gun*
Boring?! How bogus! Or at least bogus until you're on the Island of Sodor and have Duck constantly yack on about it. (But still, auto coaches, slip coaches, and even Duck's class of the 57xx pannier tank, those have always been interesting factors to me.)
Absolute Dog's 🐕🦺🦮Sam, I only like the locos with full enclosed cabs. I can't believe they made that poor bastard Engineers run those Quarter Cabs out in the cold rain and snow. 🥶😰
There was one other class of 2-8-2 for freight or goods service in the UK (if there are others please correct me). They were the LNER's P1 designed by Gresley. Only two were made and they turned out to be too powerful for the services that they were intended (heavy minerals). They were very similar in concept to American 2-8-2 used in coal trains in between 1900 to 1920s.
Model manufacturers should consider producing pre grouping GWR locos such as the Aberdares, Metro tanks, Buffalo tank engines and even the 517s which could be built as saddle tanks right through their various rebuilds to being almost identical to 14xx tanks.
I HAVE NEVER thought that GWR is boring - I've got the 'Lord of the Isles' Loco - Lovely Loco 🙂🚂🚂🚂
I’ll grant that a lot of GWR tender engines are kinda dull (especially compared to the other members of the big four), but NO ONE can touch them on tank engines. The Pannier and 14xx are iconic, and the Large Prairie is probably the most perfectly proportioned tank engine ever built.
I was wondering if there is a starter kit for GWR engines, im just getting into model trains and i love the color scheme and history of the great western.
Excellent GWR beauty parade! I think the Dean Single would be greatly improved with a more accurate front pony truck - how about 3D printing one as a new Sam project?? Alternatively, you be more ambitious and print an entire new one!!
The GWR for me did always have some of my favourite loco designs. Maybe its my west country heritage at play! Especially the tank engines. However at the risk of having an "um actually" moment one of my favorite tank engines is the LSWR H16, a 4-6-2T made of goods work in London however it did see some passenger services. The reason why I bring them up is they are slightly larger than the 72xx class (an extra 4ft in length and 4 long tons in weight). But other than that they're very unqiue locomotives being painted in green while they worked for the Southen Railway and being a pacific tank engine is something else as well.
Post grouping they built good loco's but I do find them dull and tedious, when I was young GWR layouts were everywhere at every exhibition which perhaps is another reason I'm not interested in them. The Lynton and Barnstaple, Manning Wardle 2 6 2 Tank engines were Pannier tanks too (Look at a head on view)
What a great selection. I think the original saying was, “ oh no, not another GWR “ and was aimed at the model manufacturers, as they were always producing a GWR locomotive, it was rare ( and still to this day ) to see the other companies being modelled. Southern, Eastern, Northern were sadly left out for many years. And basically because of the configurations. As another commenter mentioned, in N gauge it is even worse. Diesel and electric fare a little better, but electric are way way behind. Especially southern electric. Again like the GWR , all say the southern electric are samey, which is also a big no. But unlike GWR , some groups are left out in the cold. Such a shame. But a good video. I like the tank engines, the 1600 being the second , with the prairies being first. What a selection. On any model layout I build, the trains I run are from any region. 😎🥳🚦
I was brought up by two LNER fans, but I always liked the GWR and it was something I discovered on my own. Wouldn't choose anything else :D
Hi Sam,
I think I've mentioned this before by I am a huge GWR fan, especially as I live next to the GWML and are a couple of stations from Didcot where the Great Western Society are based.
I have a couple of comments to make about this video. First you mentioned that the Dean Goods were used by the ROD (Railway Operating Department) during the First World War. Why did you not also mention that the 28xx was also used by them, as well as the War Department in World War II. A few if these were lost at sea during transportation overseas.
Another thing you said was that the green was similar to the British Railways green. However was it not British Railways that adopted the GWR Brunswick Green, in the same way BR adopted other features from the other Big 3 when they standardised their fleet. Therefore that should have been expressed the other way round
Great video. If you're including the 1600 class, why not also the gas turbine? Also delivered after BR arrived, but hey what? Boring old diesel electrics? Let's do it the GW way with effectively a jet engine on wheels!
nice one...good joyce of subject......and you got it quite right.....i used to think GWR was all a bit samy and overrepresented in the past...but they were a very well ran railway, with very efficient stock and locos.....so......well done...i've got a few of those you showed, but never got round to get one of those big tank locos.....but hey....
A great overview video. Though I would like to mention that the Dean Goods were used heavily in Mid and South Wales on passenger trains, and that there were some Kitson Built Industrial Pannier tanks.
I don't find GWR locomotives themselves boring, far from it. I can sort of see reason 2 though with my local preserved line, the SVR. If they're running GWR stuff on the timetable I won't avoid taking the dog for a walk from Arley to Highley and back, which I do a few times a month all year round. But, if the timetable has something else running I will be more likely to choose to walk along the river next to the railway rather than take to Eymore Wood and walk to Trimpley; which has the railway out of sight most of the time but you can still hear them. There is a fourth reason too consider, and its not so much the locomotives, its the over saturation of GWR layouts in general. You can go to most model exhibitions and the majority of steam layouts will be Western based, it just gets boring seeing the same thing done a different way. Personally I hold GWR layouts in the same non-interest as current day layouts, I just walk past them thesedays, no matter how much effort the builder has put in. I'd literally rather watch the kids playing with a Thomas layout.
GWR isnt boring, British locomotives are boring in general. That isn´t to say they look bad but all of them kinda look bland and dull, while Continental European loco´s and American Loco´s have alot of variety within their ranks.
They've always looked nice, but really really samey and just lacking individuality, especially later on. Good on them for finding something that worked though. I guess the appearance is inevitable when you try to standardize parts.
So sad they didn't developed The Great Bear further or build Hawksworth's Pacifics...
People that say the GWR is boring: Exist
Duck: OH DEAR! I’M GOING TO END THEIR WHOLE CAREERS!
For me personnally its not a specific GWR issue, I find the locomotives without moving rods/valve gear to be quite mhea.
And yes that does include the diesels & electrics so Gronks and other modern engines with "movement" are a stand out for me.
The Great Western Railway was anything but boring. Unfortunately it pales in comparison to the glory of the mighty Southern Railway. After all Summer Comes Soonest in The South.