Hi Rob, my name is Kasia, I started watching your series a week ago and I am really enjoying your videos. You explain concepts so well, thanks! But also you incite hope that I can become a permaculturist. This video especially incited that hope in me, I really appreciate it.
Joining your TH-cam series from Japan. Planning a return to my home country and my suburban plot next year, so am tanking myself up with your great ideas and precious information to help do things even better when I'm back in my own little space. Thanks for making this available to the world, Rob.
Weeping tile placed behind a retaining wall may not be a bad idea, provided that the tile is in a sock surrounded by gravel and coarse sand such that it remains free of debris and collects water and conveys it away from the base of the retaining wall. If you are worried about it clogging up, you could add some clean outs. Frost heave will occur for sure if you don’t have the drain. Rain will fall and runoff will occur, even if you use drip lines. With regards to drip line, the pressure at the drip line nozzle is a function of the head (aka, the difference in elevation of water in the tank and the nozzle) minus friction losses. Depending upon the difference in height, the pressure at the nozzle can be substantial. I convey water via siphons and the water pressure exiting the siphon is more than sufficient to power a sprinkler or to drive a micro hydro turbine.
Rob mentions that a friend got the chickens to browse the garden for 10 minutes for slugs, before they go to bed (which they do, they have an inner timer, so that is very reliable). I wonder if that works with the big fat slugs as well. I used to live at a place there they had the chickens in a generous coop, they were not allowed outside (excpet the few that could fly and insisted on lying eggs in the garage) - so the many slugs, many likely came in from surrounding meadows were collected. Hot water and salt seems to be a cruel method to kill them, and what to do with the killed slugs. Compost ? Only with hot water (to also kill the eggs). Electric current could have worked, to electrocute them, should also work on the eggs. They also said that dead slugs that lie somewhere attract even more slugs. so they threw some into the chicken coop. A few chickens ate ONE, but they did not like it, it is sticky and glues up their beak. - I do not blame them. Runner ducks eat slugs if they get lots of water, but the chickens I knew ignored the slugs after a short sampling despite also having acces to water. Now if they collect them themselves it might be another story. Or the slugs in the example were smaller. or another breed of chickens. If they are used to foraging it might shape their tastes, too. In think chickens can be very effective in eating the eggs and SMALL slugs.
Is there a way to grow in a permaculture environment while using 20th century "traditional" farm machinery for planting and harvesting? Or does permaculture require more human manual labor?
Vicki Vanderbeke There is. Take a look at what Takota Coen (Verge associate) and Darren Doherty are doing on broadacre projects. Add to that a review of Yeomans' Keyline system designed specially for that type of need, both Verge and Darren utilize; and the 'new' syntropic agroforestry system (Ernst Gotsch, www.adam.nz/syntropy) that ties beautifully with permaculture food forests, agro-forestry, silvopasture, and forestry zones 3, 4, and 5.
Mark Shephard had modest equipment, it depends what you plan to do. Some say they did not even have a tractor for the longest time (I seem to remember Mark was one of them). He could make do and money was scarce. He did alley cropping, stripes of conventional fields (for cash flow) with rows of trees. The width was at least one or two machines wide, so it was a fit for combines or harvesters (if you only have a few fields and do not constantly spray them - you can pay a neighbor to help out with the tractor the few times a machine would make sense. As the trees grew larger and started to make them moneythey made those stripes wider to turn them into food forests. There are machines to harvest hazel nuts ! I did not know such a thing existed.
it would be also interesting what Geoff Lawton has on his farm, they have a tractor, and 4 WD vehicles. And for a time it might be appropriate to be the proud owner of a small earth digger. I know a man than dug 2 ponds (not for farming) he had a Bed and Breakfast, and I think the meadow was wet anyway. He was lucky with the soil it was loam or clay, no liner needed. He claims the did the digging all alone and used the shovel to pound the dirt together. When he was done with the 2 ponds (fairly large ones, both are suited for swimiing), he sold the digger again, he claims with a profit.
Great video Rob. I have one question for you (sorry I couldn't make the live session) regarding your lovely design at the Groundswell permaculture garden. The pit gardens you designed do they overflow into the nearby swales? Thanks Rob and Michelle for sharing this information.
They cascade into each other. As they are super absorptive, we have had to flood them from time to time with the large underground cistern. Now that the trees are established they growing really well.
Hi Rob, thank you very much for your public materials, they are very informative for a beginner like me. I have a question about placing open water features such as swales in an urban setting. How do you deal with mosquitoes in the summer? What would be the "___ solution" to that? :)
There are no problems at all with mosquitos, Geoff Lawton also says he always gets that question regarding water harvesting (he did a 5 minute clip on that, check it out). I have no idea WHY, people seem to be unaware under which conditions they CAN breed - and when not. Swales are water _infiltration_ devices. Unless this is a mega rain / flood event, the water is supposed to have fully infiltrated after 3 days. If a swale is level (on contour) there is only moist soil left - but the larvae need STANDING and still water, tiny quantities will suffice, but it has to be standing. As for rainwater barrels etc - they are supposed to have a mesh and / or a cover. An open barrel would indeed be a breeding ground. if there was a mega flood - there is probabley a lot of movement going on the surface, first the rain drops, then water draining away (swales draining to other swales, or ponds) that is not good for the larvae. They need to come to the surface to breathe and can't do that with all the wild movement, they are tiny so it does not take much to derail them. And of course if there are fish or other critters they know where to find the snacks, they just have to wait, because the larvae MUST come up. So even if the standing water after a mega rain event lasts more than 3 days, you probably would be good. Takota Coen has standing water in the swales during 2 weeks of snow melt when the ground is still frozen - no problem despite "violating the 3 days rules", it is too cold for any pests. One permaculture steward is in South Italy, and in winter he has standing water in the swales of his demonstration site. There is so much water that they become little canals for a while. But I guess that it is too cool to promote mosquitoes. If so, he could insert some small fish to take care of them, which would probably die when the water finally infiltrates - or he rescues them. Goldfish (if he can be sure they will not get out, they have become invasive because people put them in natural bodies of water), they can deal with low water quality (nutrient rich, not much oxygen) or maybe some very small, robust local fish. And of course as always: toads and frogs, they probably already found his property. You are supposed to have niches for toads, frogs. And some niches for animals and insects that like dry spots, lizards, snakes, insects. Hedges for birds. One permaculturist in Germany deposited cut off brambles and branches in a heap and the birds really like it, they can go inside, I guess it is protection from predators. They were hammered in the first years with slugs, that eat their cabbage and strawberries. But then insects, wild birds, hedge hogs came, they have a pond (for a while when it was new, they did have gold fish in it), and now deer and wild boars visit, and many of them eat slugs or their eggs. So after 10 years no problems with slugs anymore. (that is a demonstration and couse site, they can't have animals like chicken there to control pests, they invest 2 hours per week work on average and are not much there). The site is open for the public and wildlife. The defenses for the pests should be invited before you even put your beds, water, paths, .... trees. When the pests find your garden, their predators are already well established (and you cover all niches from wet to dry). I think people are so enthusiastic about getting the beds going, or digging ponds, that they overlook they should get the stone walls, and dead wood piles and bird hedges and insect hotels before any of that. And little wet spots to attract toads or certain insencts that like that - there are some that like a wet spot (but not standing water) and they prey on slugs and their eggs. Good thing is - that can be low key and provisory, it does not need as much planning and expertise, and you can always move those stone / dead wood piles, and tiny wet spots (not standing water, just what some toads would find attractive). If you have a pond it needs to be deep enough to a allow fish to live in it year round and you need to have shwallow water zones with some gravel, and a little debris for the spawn of frogs, fish, toads to hide. Plus some shallow spots where water plants and _reeds_ can grow. If you have a lot of fish you will have fewer frogs, and toads (spawn) - unless the pond is fairly large. And hiding places and some warm shallow zones with some hiding places help to avoid tht one kind is completey decimated by another one. Sepp Holzer also says that the ponds tunred out to be more productive if he put in some hiding places (the little fish, or crabs can hide so they are not always completely stressed out because they are "in the open", and more food goes into putting on weight. And their predators do not have an all-you-can-eat-buffet, they have to work for their food. Reeds planted in shallow water. The dragonflies lie their eggs on those (they glue them to the stems). That takes care of your dragon fly swadron, your fish will be lucky to get some larvae, they are FIERCE and effective hunters. And for them (unlike for birds or bats) the mosquitos are not too tiny to be worth the while). Water that is constantly moving also makes it impossible for the larvae to survive. However: all saucers and even a spoonful of water in some depression after a rain, that can become a mosquito breeding ground. That could be in a tree fork, a small depression in the ground (uness your toads and frogs are on duty). watered flower pots with saucers. Rain barrels that are not covered. Equipment like garden chairs that is left standing for a few days with some water puddling on them. Ash treys. Geoff Lawton has a short video on the issue, he says they only have to be meticulous about all containers, equipment. AND plants like bromelia are not good because the flowers act like a small container, and there the mosquito larvae can hide, and frogs will not get into that deposit of water. The leaves of a water lily are not problem, frogs will patrol here.
Hi Rob, my name is Kasia, I started watching your series a week ago and I am really enjoying your videos. You explain concepts so well, thanks! But also you incite hope that I can become a permaculturist. This video especially incited that hope in me, I really appreciate it.
Joining your TH-cam series from Japan. Planning a return to my home country and my suburban plot next year, so am tanking myself up with your great ideas and precious information to help do things even better when I'm back in my own little space. Thanks for making this available to the world, Rob.
Hey I’m ShofarDean really excited about all the great news and information is highly appreciated. I want to under more I saw # 5
Great series. Hope it sparks interest in permaculture in many people
Weeping tile placed behind a retaining wall may not be a bad idea, provided that the tile is in a sock surrounded by gravel and coarse sand such that it remains free of debris and collects water and conveys it away from the base of the retaining wall. If you are worried about it clogging up, you could add some clean outs. Frost heave will occur for sure if you don’t have the drain. Rain will fall and runoff will occur, even if you use drip lines. With regards to drip line, the pressure at the drip line nozzle is a function of the head (aka, the difference in elevation of water in the tank and the nozzle) minus friction losses. Depending upon the difference in height, the pressure at the nozzle can be substantial. I convey water via siphons and the water pressure exiting the siphon is more than sufficient to power a sprinkler or to drive a micro hydro turbine.
Rob mentions that a friend got the chickens to browse the garden for 10 minutes for slugs, before they go to bed (which they do, they have an inner timer, so that is very reliable). I wonder if that works with the big fat slugs as well. I used to live at a place there they had the chickens in a generous coop, they were not allowed outside (excpet the few that could fly and insisted on lying eggs in the garage) - so the many slugs, many likely came in from surrounding meadows were collected.
Hot water and salt seems to be a cruel method to kill them, and what to do with the killed slugs. Compost ? Only with hot water (to also kill the eggs). Electric current could have worked, to electrocute them, should also work on the eggs. They also said that dead slugs that lie somewhere attract even more slugs.
so they threw some into the chicken coop. A few chickens ate ONE, but they did not like it, it is sticky and glues up their beak. - I do not blame them.
Runner ducks eat slugs if they get lots of water, but the chickens I knew ignored the slugs after a short sampling despite also having acces to water.
Now if they collect them themselves it might be another story. Or the slugs in the example were smaller. or another breed of chickens. If they are used to foraging it might shape their tastes, too.
In think chickens can be very effective in eating the eggs and SMALL slugs.
Where will you place a rootceller?
can you place it next to or as a part of your kitchin?
Is there a way to grow in a permaculture environment while using 20th century "traditional" farm machinery for planting and harvesting? Or does permaculture require more human manual labor?
Vicki Vanderbeke
There is. Take a look at what Takota Coen (Verge associate) and Darren Doherty are doing on broadacre projects.
Add to that a review of Yeomans' Keyline system designed specially for that type of need, both Verge and Darren utilize; and the 'new' syntropic agroforestry system (Ernst Gotsch, www.adam.nz/syntropy) that ties beautifully with permaculture food forests, agro-forestry, silvopasture, and forestry zones 3, 4, and 5.
Mark Shephard had modest equipment, it depends what you plan to do. Some say they did not even have a tractor for the longest time (I seem to remember Mark was one of them). He could make do and money was scarce. He did alley cropping, stripes of conventional fields (for cash flow) with rows of trees. The width was at least one or two machines wide, so it was a fit for combines or harvesters (if you only have a few fields and do not constantly spray them - you can pay a neighbor to help out with the tractor the few times a machine would make sense. As the trees grew larger and started to make them moneythey made those stripes wider to turn them into food forests.
There are machines to harvest hazel nuts ! I did not know such a thing existed.
it would be also interesting what Geoff Lawton has on his farm, they have a tractor, and 4 WD vehicles. And for a time it might be appropriate to be the proud owner of a small earth digger. I know a man than dug 2 ponds (not for farming) he had a Bed and Breakfast, and I think the meadow was wet anyway. He was lucky with the soil it was loam or clay, no liner needed. He claims the did the digging all alone and used the shovel to pound the dirt together.
When he was done with the 2 ponds (fairly large ones, both are suited for swimiing), he sold the digger again, he claims with a profit.
Great video Rob. I have one question for you (sorry I couldn't make the live session) regarding your lovely design at the Groundswell permaculture garden. The pit gardens you designed do they overflow into the nearby swales? Thanks Rob and Michelle for sharing this information.
They cascade into each other. As they are super absorptive, we have had to flood them from time to time with the large underground cistern. Now that the trees are established they growing really well.
Thanks for that. You're doing some amazing work...Thanks
As are you my friend!
Note to self: listen to it again, read automatic transcript and also chat (that is interesting, too although he reads most of it).
Hi Rob, thank you very much for your public materials, they are very informative for a beginner like me. I have a question about placing open water features such as swales in an urban setting. How do you deal with mosquitoes in the summer? What would be the "___ solution" to that? :)
There are no problems at all with mosquitos, Geoff Lawton also says he always gets that question regarding water harvesting (he did a 5 minute clip on that, check it out). I have no idea WHY, people seem to be unaware under which conditions they CAN breed - and when not. Swales are water _infiltration_ devices. Unless this is a mega rain / flood event, the water is supposed to have fully infiltrated after 3 days. If a swale is level (on contour) there is only moist soil left - but the larvae need STANDING and still water, tiny quantities will suffice, but it has to be standing.
As for rainwater barrels etc - they are supposed to have a mesh and / or a cover. An open barrel would indeed be a breeding ground.
if there was a mega flood - there is probabley a lot of movement going on the surface, first the rain drops, then water draining away (swales draining to other swales, or ponds) that is not good for the larvae. They need to come to the surface to breathe and can't do that with all the wild movement, they are tiny so it does not take much to derail them.
And of course if there are fish or other critters they know where to find the snacks, they just have to wait, because the larvae MUST come up. So even if the standing water after a mega rain event lasts more than 3 days, you probably would be good.
Takota Coen has standing water in the swales during 2 weeks of snow melt when the ground is still frozen - no problem despite "violating the 3 days rules", it is too cold for any pests.
One permaculture steward is in South Italy, and in winter he has standing water in the swales of his demonstration site. There is so much water that they become little canals for a while. But I guess that it is too cool to promote mosquitoes. If so, he could insert some small fish to take care of them, which would probably die when the water finally infiltrates - or he rescues them. Goldfish (if he can be sure they will not get out, they have become invasive because people put them in natural bodies of water), they can deal with low water quality (nutrient rich, not much oxygen) or maybe some very small, robust local fish.
And of course as always: toads and frogs, they probably already found his property.
You are supposed to have niches for toads, frogs. And some niches for animals and insects that like dry spots, lizards, snakes, insects. Hedges for birds. One permaculturist in Germany deposited cut off brambles and branches in a heap and the birds really like it, they can go inside, I guess it is protection from predators.
They were hammered in the first years with slugs, that eat their cabbage and strawberries. But then insects, wild birds, hedge hogs came, they have a pond (for a while when it was new, they did have gold fish in it), and now deer and wild boars visit, and many of them eat slugs or their eggs.
So after 10 years no problems with slugs anymore.
(that is a demonstration and couse site, they can't have animals like chicken there to control pests, they invest 2 hours per week work on average and are not much there). The site is open for the public and wildlife.
The defenses for the pests should be invited before you even put your beds, water, paths, .... trees.
When the pests find your garden, their predators are already well established (and you cover all niches from wet to dry). I think people are so enthusiastic about getting the beds going, or digging ponds, that they overlook they should get the stone walls, and dead wood piles and bird hedges and insect hotels before any of that.
And little wet spots to attract toads or certain insencts that like that - there are some that like a wet spot (but not standing water) and they prey on slugs and their eggs.
Good thing is - that can be low key and provisory, it does not need as much planning and expertise, and you can always move those stone / dead wood piles, and tiny wet spots (not standing water, just what some toads would find attractive).
If you have a pond it needs to be deep enough to a allow fish to live in it year round and you need to have shwallow water zones with some gravel, and a little debris for the spawn of frogs, fish, toads to hide. Plus some shallow spots where water plants and _reeds_ can grow. If you have a lot of fish you will have fewer frogs, and toads (spawn) - unless the pond is fairly large.
And hiding places and some warm shallow zones with some hiding places help to avoid tht one kind is completey decimated by another one.
Sepp Holzer also says that the ponds tunred out to be more productive if he put in some hiding places (the little fish, or crabs can hide so they are not always completely stressed out because they are "in the open", and more food goes into putting on weight. And their predators do not have an all-you-can-eat-buffet, they have to work for their food.
Reeds planted in shallow water. The dragonflies lie their eggs on those (they glue them to the stems). That takes care of your dragon fly swadron, your fish will be lucky to get some larvae, they are FIERCE and effective hunters. And for them (unlike for birds or bats) the mosquitos are not too tiny to be worth the while).
Water that is constantly moving also makes it impossible for the larvae to survive.
However:
all saucers and even a spoonful of water in some depression after a rain, that can become a mosquito breeding ground. That could be in a tree fork, a small depression in the ground (uness your toads and frogs are on duty). watered flower pots with saucers. Rain barrels that are not covered. Equipment like garden chairs that is left standing for a few days with some water puddling on them. Ash treys.
Geoff Lawton has a short video on the issue, he says they only have to be meticulous about all containers, equipment.
AND plants like bromelia are not good because the flowers act like a small container, and there the mosquito larvae can hide, and frogs will not get into that deposit of water. The leaves of a water lily are not problem, frogs will patrol here.
We had an open cistern 1800s house,and rats got in it and died and we all got sick. Just sayin something to be aware of