One of the best things I've heard in a long time "Dont attach emotions to failure. Attach solutions to failure". I enjoy your videos. As a non-machinist I learn a lot with each one.
I remember my first crash on a lathe, the instructor at the time told me get back on the machine but me being young at the time I was throwing a sulk and to quote me exactly 'I ain't ever getting up on that ffnng machine again'
Great summary. We have a Haas ST-30SSY with barfeeder and run a lot of Y axis milling. I agree with the pro’s and the areas for improvement. We bought a Nakamura-Tome AS-200MY as compliment to our Haas and have been very pleased with it. All machines are tools. Sometimes craftsman is fine, other times you need snap-on. People that say you always need snap-on are crazy or union.
@Peter Bowman You make an excellent point! Too many people (and apparently commenters) think of machines as Ford vs Chevy where one side is passionately convinced they're better. Thinking of machines as complementing each other is a winning strategy for success!
Our current gen ST20Y has been flawless for the last year. Have two more on the way. The sub interpolation has proven to not be an issue for our smaller parts since we can just XY mill anything we need. The lighting inside could be better. I’ll look into moving the light. Parts catcher is also a little weak. We added a small blocker wall of sheet metal on and it helped.
Great video Jay. One thing that I wish you had mentioned was the price of each machine. If they were identically priced, it would be a truly fair comparison but a few thousand dollars in difference can be a major deal breaker for potential buyers. I think this topic could be visited in the future since long term reliability is also an important factor.
Great vid. Just had a doosan dnm5700l installed a week ago. Going from the fadal 88hs control to the fanuc oimf+ control was a mind blow for the first few hours of training just like you mentioned. All ok now for basic machine operation but more advanced feature or uncommon menus are extremely well hidden. I use the ezi guide software you made mention of. It is easier for sure in my opinion. Cheers
I have an SL10 and a Doosan 220B. There is no comparison between the two. The Doosan runs the same program in 60% of the time the Haas does just due to the rapid times and tool changes. The Service on the Haas was Abysmal. The Doosan gets a checkup every year and keeps on running. It's a 2006 and the Haas is a 2004. I also bought a 2011 and a 2012 VM2 Haas. Between the two of them I've replaced SEVEN ballscrews, Three spindles. Both mills got out of the factorn with the Z Ballscrew bearing block not pinned to the chassis. I've sold every Haas except my little 2000 Mini and it just won't quit. Bought Maklino's and am MUCH happier. THE most important thing when buying machines is service. And Selway service is Legendary in it's piss poor quality. They put my Cuvic coupler back together with only TWO balls in it and then wanted to charge me to fix their screwup. Never again Then we can talk about their barfeeders,.,.,.Junk. Not accurate and slow. Pushrod bends. Won't feed...LNS is MUCH better
Great review, thanks! I own a basic 2 axis Haas St10 and quite recently bought a lynx 2100 lsyb. I agree with most of what you said, except: - Part catcher on the doosan. It is terrible for small light parts, misses a lot of them or parts stay stuck before reaching the conveyor. Also a big risk of crash having it fixed on the sub spindle if a part doesn't exit correctly and the sub starts moving. The Haas part catcher is dead simple. Not perfect at all but very reliable. - Thermal stability. Our doosan moves up to 0.003" during 60-90 minutes before getting stable. Might be an isolated issue with our machine though, the dealer is looking into it. Still, would go doosan again without hesitation, just for the noise...
Funny you mention the Parts Catcher on the Doosan ? They can be sort of fixed with a added on guard i guess you could call it. Thermal Stability dramas ? This goes for most machines that don't have Thermal Comp built into a machine. You would already know this by now. But a morning warm up before making parts normally settles down the worst machines. This is where the bonus of Lights Out Machining comes in very handy other than the obvious reasons. Because the temperature is more stable at night than day. All the best with your latest Doosan purchase. Definitely a Great machine to buy.
I have had the same issues with my Lynx 220... Even after warming up, once it idles for a bit. You are already back to square 1 and chasing tolerance. Dealing with such a swing became a headache on aluminum parts requiring +/- .0005 No coolant chiller or glass scales on mine. Might as well had gotten another machine that didn't require those extra bells and whistles. amukO Just be careful when selecting machines for your parts. I wish me and my dad had known when bought our Lynx.
@@peterCheater Still having dramas with runout ?? This has more to do with the Mechanicals of the machine. Not so much the brand of the machine. Especially after a warm up procedure. If you're still chasing tolerance after a warm up. It's more than lightly a problem with the Ball Screw. Could be also Linear Slides. But usually not as common as Ball Screw problems. 220 LYNX is a fairly old machine now. But saying that i have no idea of the hours on your machine ?? Can only gauge by the build date ?? But in general it has had enough time to start to wear out parts. Might be a good time to do a basic repeatability test to see how your machine is operating. Can definitely understand your frustration when this happens. But it could be time to do some basic test. Before blaming a particular brand of machine. Just saying 😌 👍
@@weldmachine Thanks Weld! Frustrating indeed. Ive only been in the industry for 3 years. Machine is 2017 Lynx 220 LSY. Got it after our boxway 1994 Hardinge T51 took the shitter. Did a simlpl back lash this past week and saw a .0004 back lash on the X. Adjusted the parameters. Hopefully that should've resolved a part of the issue. Kind of disheartening to see that variation.
I recently learned that there is a new Lynx model 2600sy being released this year, likely positioned to sell against the St-20/25. The 2600 has BMT-55 and 3" bar capacity and similar work envelope to ST-20/25.
Seen the same machine also. All the things the LYNX 220/210 should be is already included in the LYNX 2600 It's as close to buying a Doosan Puma as you could go without spending the $$$$$. I definitely like the Big Bore Spindle which is fairly common on most CNC Lathes now but a huge plus if looking at buying a new Lathe. The heavier duty Live Tools is another plus. Never really liked the LYNX 220/210 that much, a great machine but the Live Tools are Not so good, Great for Drilling & Tapping some light duty Milling that's about it. The other plus i like with the Doosan range is you can option the machines with a Siemens Controller.
Would be interested in another update. Which machine has been down for maintenance more at this point. Also I think the Haas works for you well building small parts but the Doosan is built for more rigidity and larger parts making it more reliable with less downtime in my opinion. We machine large 12” OD parts and our Haas machines don’t hold up as well as the Doosan does. We have 30 Haas machines and only 2 Doosan machines but convincing me to buy another Haas would be a touch sell I think unless you plan ahead to replace them every 5-6 years
the pricing on Haas in the uk must be different to over the pond. No prices given by any machine supplier until they waffle you for over an hour of your life. I'm currently shortlisting a first new machine purchase and it would be easier if you had a guide price to work to first. Thanks for the reviews, very informative
Agreed. I'll be looking for a new turning center in the next year and I had no idea Doosan was even in a comparable price range to Haas. I would've skipped right over them if not for these videos.
I can whole heartedly agree and give credit to the Haas control for how intuitive it is, but most if not almost all Fanuc controls have rotary selector switches for rapids feeds speeds that are much more intuitive to use in my opinion When I am finishing a setup and walking thru the program, being able to twist the rapid selector becomes mindless as opposed to the rapid buttons on the Haas control. Subtle, and possibly nitpicky, but I feel others will agree on this that use a Fanuc control daily in their work.
When you use something daily, minor details as those make a tremendous difference. Same goes for CAD CAM software, a couple of clicks more for the same result makes hours at the end of the month.
It would be interesting to know what coolant maintenance is like between the machines. The Haas DS30Y that we have allows the coolant tank to be slid out and quickly cleaned. What's the Doosan like? With one exception, a Nakamura WT100, all of our lathes have been Haas. We just sold the oldest one last year and it showed 1.95 MILLION tool changes on the diagnostics page. It has run reliably except for a tailstock encoder for 20 years and held tolerances of .0005" throughout its life.
Coolant access is similar. The Doosan tank rolls out the front and the Haas rolls out the side. The Doosan includes a tramp oil skimmer as a standard feature!
Been using My Haas SL 30's since 1999 , and they run really good . Consistently hold .001 after warm up. The new ST's are supposedly even better, so I am not surprised. Just gotta Bar feed for my 2005 SL-30 so I am glad to hear they work good. Thank You for the insight Jay
Had an early 2000s HAAS SL10. Was near a bay door. This was in Denver. In winter, if someone opened the bay door for more than a couple minutes, my next part was scrap. The machine also wouldn't run stainless, would just alarm out :( Had no "butt" to it at all. Drive belts snapped every few months. Part catcher never worked as far as I know. You can probably chalk most of this up to terrible maintenance, but from my experience, I'd rather spend an extra few bucks on a lathe than a HAAS. Not for a mill though. I'd buy a HAAS VF anything any day. Did a NASA part on a HAAS mill once, LOL. And we had DMU MORIs and Mazaks, nope, put it on the HAAS :D
@@jerryherrin6470, Interesting Jerry, I have only the Geared Head lathes and I have machined lot's of Stainless and lots Inconel 625 with no big problems. Maybe the direct belt drives are just not that powerful.
We have a early 2000s model SL-20 and I love that lathe. I run I625, C276, etc on it all the time and it’s a powerhouse lol but we also have other haas that are shit lol just depends on model and ours is a VDI style holders so the holders have a lock pin and they have a nut that screws from the back of the turret. I might be talking out my ass but I feel that makes it more ridged.
Some interesting pros and cons. I'm considering switching from HAAS to the exact Doosan you have. We've had huge reliability issues with our HAAS lathe and when the engineers are saying the lathes should be avoided at the moment that's saying something. Also explored Hurco but not hearing some greats things from a few customers with 2018/2019 lathes. Feels like a minefield for buying lathes right now. On the plus side the mills I hear from HAAS are rock solid
@@aronandreas generally the build quality and checks coming out of the factory. A small but main list was that the spindle was off centre from the tooling by height by 1.5mm and we're in our third live axis unit, second door, 4th live axis cable, 3rd servo drive unit. I've got a list bigger then a technical manual. The one thing I really do love about HAAS is the control. The control is super easy to use. But it's full of bugs, some fairly dangerous. Had an engineer's hand trapped twice by the bar pushed because it didn't dump air off
I can't comment about the Hurco Lathes, but the Mills are lighyears smarter and more heavily built than Haas. I will say that It took me awhile to do things with Winmax without having to think about it, but it is arguably the most advanced conversational control on the market.
Jay if you think that turret bearing is annoying wait till your haas is a week out of warranty and that Air cylinder that locks the turret starts leaking air and pushes all the oil out of the turret, haas was nice enough to charge me to fix it, with their simple design flaw, the gearbox doesn't have a breather in it. Oh yeah I said a week out of warranty. They have no problem saying it's out of warranty and not our problem.
I tried to get a price for a doosan At my local dealer and left after an hour without an actual price, though he was all about getting my information to get the ball rolling on a loan for it.
We use feature cam to program an st20y to interpolate using C. It involved the G128 I think, it's not amazing but it works. I've finished 3d surfaces using basically a steep shallow tool path with the spindle acting as C and a live tooling head with a ball nose endmill. I've got pics of some parts if u want DM me
Coming from the Haas lathe control and now having the Doosan ez guide mode(or whatever it's called), there was basically no learning curve. I would say they are both equally easy to use. Now the standard fanuc side, I still have no idea how to use it. The Puma does come standard with the auto tool setter arm. I wish the Lynx did as well for in process tool checks but I don't think it's even an option. As for holding size, the CL-1 held tenths regardless if it was hot or cold and the Lynx seems to move about .001" as it warms up but then it holds size all day once its up to temp. I'm assuming that's because it's a much larger casting and thermal expansion is more noticeable which I'm sure the larger haas lathe experience the same thing.
Used to sell machines for a company here in Southern California, and I’ll speak for myself, but I never looked at the quality of the shop and thought about the price they could afford to pay. I always just tried to get them the best deal possible because there was so much competition on simply getting the machine sold. Maybe Haas shows the prices like that because they don’t feel like they have as much competition.
Even if the individual sales rep is truly looking out to score a good sale and be price competitive (And I know many are really trying to be positive support for their clients) because of well, everything... it's hard to trust that as a customer until longer term basis of trust is there. And many to-be-customers do probably loose out on some great opportunities as a result which is a shame. I'm sure plenty of people are getting smoking deals below list for Haas stuff, even outside the ridiculous sales, but if I can at least look at the website and go "yeah that's the price they're listed at, and the sales guy is giving me a price a bit better than that" then at least I trust they aren't taking me for a ride. They might give other people better deals, that's great for them, I just like knowing that I can start somewhere and the sales guy knows I have that data. And especially for smaller shops and startups the ability to just see all the prices right there, so you know where a VF2 sits in comparison to the VF4 or the TM2 or the UMC500 or so-on. That can help say "we have been eyeing a TM2, but the VF2 is only a tiny bit more and has all these extra features" In fact that's what happened with our startup. Had we just been going by the sales guy who knew we were interested in the TM and had given quotes on that, we'd have been looking down the tunnel of TM stuff and been in a bit of a bubble. We might not have realized we would essentially paying for a loaded TM that could have just as easily been a base model VF that is a better machine in every way for us. A really keen Sales person might have seen that and made the suggestion, but part of me isn't sure. And certainly the website having pricing on it let us figure this out and change course at the last minute.
I run a DS-30Y and there's still no interpolation. It does have a brake however and is far more substantial than just a 'finishing spindle' but unforuntately no interpolation.
Some great points in the review. I own a HAAS SL-20 and a Mori NL2500SY as well as a Robodrill. Fanuc control is a pain to train on but so reliable, the Doosan is an exact copy of a Mori NL (one of the most popular lathes ever sold). I would never buy a live tool sub spindle lathe without full C axis on sub and I’m surprised haas would release one with only orientation. Orientation on my haas mill is pointless because it has a rubber coupling between spindle and motor so is not accurate (not sure how solid it is on Haas lathe sub) Love the Haas control. Hopefully Fanuc will sort the user friendly side of their control out as it really is a joke to a new user compared to Haas. (Cncmedcom pty Ltd)
I really wanted to buy a new Doosan a few months ago, but I went with a new Haas ST20Y. It was due to the Fanuc controls and having 20 x more button presses to do anything like touching off tools or loading a file from USB. Not very well thought out by Fanuc and then the graphics version running on top of the hmi is Windows. Lastly, the Doosan has twice the horsepower as the Haas (look at current/amperage ratings) but then uses a much smaller BMT45 turret vs Haas's BMT65. The machine looks really nice, much stiffer linear rails, nicer coolant tank, and rapids twice as fast, but the Fanuc controls killed it for me. I have several Haas machines so I'm used to them. The old Fadal requires spacebar to jump to different menus but still not as bad as the Fanuc.
Either you got a good Haas Lathe, we got one that's not so good, or Haas has come a long ways with their new machines, when it comes to holding size. When running a long running job on our 2006 SL-10, I have seen between 0.003" and 0.007" change from start up to "operating temperature." And it usually takes between 4 and 6 hours of constant running before it finally settles down. If we stop it for lunch, we have to start over again, to a certain point, after lunch. Also, you mention the auto touch probe auto adjusts sizes while running at night, lights out? I am curious how that works. Not how the arm itself works, but making sure the part is the right size. We touch off tools on our manual probe, and that will get you within 0.005" of the correct size on the part. But it's never perfect. I guess if you are dealing with +/-0.015" for tolerances, that would be OK. We deal with parts having 0.0005" total tolerance on some features. Major difference there. An order of magnitude difference, just from where we touched off the tool! Certainly not saying the SL-10 we have is a bad machine. It is just much different than what you are talking about in these two categories.
Have both machines too. But cycletime at Doosan 328 sec and at Haas 379 sec with quite less Quality!! Thinking Haas is good enough for Americans but the rest of the world would prefer.... NOT THE HAAS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! The productivity is like their F1-Team , below the average. Changing my Hass to another Doosan Lynx at 31th of July and im HAPPY with that . Greets from Germany
Which makers do you think are above average? the F-1s? how would you rank them? Im still learning about cnc 5-axis world and its certainly vast, lots of machine manufacturers out there 😳 matsuura, mazak, dmg-mori, makino....there are also less well known brands but seen very high quality too ... ufff a very long etc ..... 😬
Where I work I run a 2008 sl30 old controller no live tooling or y or bar feeder. I got the royal cutoff and bar puller and made some parts catchers to attach to the tailstock. And my boss is liking it even being against the shop switching more to cnc and making new instead of reparing. Just took delivery of a ST35 LY, unfortunately one rail has a massive ding in it. Can't wait to play with the live tooling and learn to program that. What's your solution for holding live tooling heads out of the machine and it says not to change tooling in the machine as it could damage it.
When you go and buy a machine for your shop, do you buy new? Do you buy used? What's your philosophy? My parents are school bus contractors and when they go buy a bus, they do their best to buy new because they don't want to deal with someone elses problems from a used bus. They would rather work through their own problems with a new bus.
@Pierson Workholding Would you consider relaying the machine red, amber, green traffic lights onto a board in your office? Nay, even network them somehow? Think how many slight neck movements you could save!
Used a lot of LNS bar feeders. I think I had to manually feed each one of them. Terrible terrible devices that aren't worth their value in scrap metal. I've heard horror stories about HAAS feeders too though. Either not working outright or just being shotty. Only bar feeder I trust these days are the ones on swiss citizens.
@@nikolaiownz Mills are trying to sell me the Fanuc control Instead of the Siemens. I asked about the Siemens because j heard just this. Kinda confused why they would push Fanuc
I used to be mazak boy, now I'm working on doosan 3100lxy with siemens 828 d ,without training ,I will pick-up that control on my self ,doosan lathe with this control eat our mazak 350
Samsung's are great machines with good iron. They are very comparable to Doosan and about 5-10% less expensive. Support in my area isn't as prominent as Doosan though.
@@PiersonWorkholding Honestly for me, its the power and reliability that i get from doosan, haas never gave me that, doosan give you so much more standard than haas did, EG, roller ways, 12k spindle, Face contact spindle, 20 bar tsc, its all standard! plus, the dealer was cheaper than haas by a few grand, Very surprising. For the same size machine doosan i think weighs 2 ton more, you should see the casting on it, its huge compared to my haas. DNM 6700 - VF4SS, but I'm not going to deny haas just because they're haas, its experience from both brands, I started on a ol scrapper haas and I wouldn't be where I am today without it.
@@PiersonWorkholding HAAS VMC is "narrow C-frame design" and Doosan VMC column is "wide C-frame design". On the HAAS design in X plus and minus table hangs in the air. Doosan pros or also stronger spindle motor, stronger feed axis motor, bigger profile of linear ways, and roller ways against ball ways, bigger ball screw diameter, and Doosan ball screws are anchored on both sides with 3 bearings, while HAAS ball screw hangs, so thermal expansion on X and Y cannot be controlled on the HAAS
@@blacklabeloffroad Thanks for info! Im asking this since we have one of the Lynx 2100LSYA and we actually run into .0014" in the morning and it's quite frustrating for us. Trying to find solution for that...
Looking in from the outside of never using a haas, it seems like haas is running their company the same way the American car manufacturers do by focusing on selling a car with lots of features the public wants, instead of a truly well built car with decent features. You know, feeding on that "disposable" immediate gratification mentality.
The Doosan should allow you to spec Siemens or Heidenhain controls and use Fanuc as a default ,so thats a Pro. Once you give the Siemens a try you won't go back , its super efficient and can be programmed in 3 different methods. Thermal stability: Ive seen upto 20um -30um from initial first component to say 10th depending on cutting loads. Im convinced its not only m/c warmup but rather the general temp rise within the enclosure,turret ,tool holder,coolant temp and bar to be machined tha have an effect.
HAAS parts catcher is a very bad design..have used it on sl20 alot.. the lid in the door jams all the time, or u often get long chips stuck in that tray. Alot of times small parts just bounce on that tray, and u can never find them again.. or just get stuck at the opening in the door
After my bad experience with a haas dealer trying to screw me with a new maching that was .0015” out and programming a customer machine that was +.003” out. I would never buy one are recommended any. I know theirs other very good machines out their.
Lol. Okuma is not even close in price to a Haas man. Doosan is much closer to price of an optioned up Haas and I think I may bet a Doosan as my next mill and maybe get rid of my haas.
One of the best things I've heard in a long time "Dont attach emotions to failure. Attach solutions to failure". I enjoy your videos. As a non-machinist I learn a lot with each one.
I remember my first crash on a lathe, the instructor at the time told me get back on the machine but me being young at the time I was throwing a sulk and to quote me exactly 'I ain't ever getting up on that ffnng machine again'
@@MrCoffeypaul Not touched my lathe for months since the last crash. It broke me as well.
Great summary. We have a Haas ST-30SSY with barfeeder and run a lot of Y axis milling. I agree with the pro’s and the areas for improvement.
We bought a Nakamura-Tome AS-200MY as compliment to our Haas and have been very pleased with it.
All machines are tools. Sometimes craftsman is fine, other times you need snap-on. People that say you always need snap-on are crazy or union.
@Peter Bowman You make an excellent point! Too many people (and apparently commenters) think of machines as Ford vs Chevy where one side is passionately convinced they're better. Thinking of machines as complementing each other is a winning strategy for success!
Our current gen ST20Y has been flawless for the last year. Have two more on the way. The sub interpolation has proven to not be an issue for our smaller parts since we can just XY mill anything we need. The lighting inside could be better. I’ll look into moving the light. Parts catcher is also a little weak. We added a small blocker wall of sheet metal on and it helped.
Great video Jay. One thing that I wish you had mentioned was the price of each machine. If they were identically priced, it would be a truly fair comparison but a few thousand dollars in difference can be a major deal breaker for potential buyers.
I think this topic could be visited in the future since long term reliability is also an important factor.
Great vid. Just had a doosan dnm5700l installed a week ago. Going from the fadal 88hs control to the fanuc oimf+ control was a mind blow for the first few hours of training just like you mentioned. All ok now for basic machine operation but more advanced feature or uncommon menus are extremely well hidden. I use the ezi guide software you made mention of. It is easier for sure in my opinion.
Cheers
I have an SL10 and a Doosan 220B. There is no comparison between the two. The Doosan runs the same program in 60% of the time the Haas does just due to the rapid times and tool changes. The Service on the Haas was Abysmal. The Doosan gets a checkup every year and keeps on running. It's a 2006 and the Haas is a 2004. I also bought a 2011 and a 2012 VM2 Haas. Between the two of them I've replaced SEVEN ballscrews, Three spindles. Both mills got out of the factorn with the Z Ballscrew bearing block not pinned to the chassis. I've sold every Haas except my little 2000 Mini and it just won't quit. Bought Maklino's and am MUCH happier. THE most important thing when buying machines is service. And Selway service is Legendary in it's piss poor quality. They put my Cuvic coupler back together with only TWO balls in it and then wanted to charge me to fix their screwup. Never again
Then we can talk about their barfeeders,.,.,.Junk. Not accurate and slow. Pushrod bends. Won't feed...LNS is MUCH better
what kind of work do you do ? AL BR SS?
Great review, thanks!
I own a basic 2 axis Haas St10 and quite recently bought a lynx 2100 lsyb. I agree with most of what you said, except:
- Part catcher on the doosan. It is terrible for small light parts, misses a lot of them or parts stay stuck before reaching the conveyor. Also a big risk of crash having it fixed on the sub spindle if a part doesn't exit correctly and the sub starts moving.
The Haas part catcher is dead simple. Not perfect at all but very reliable.
- Thermal stability. Our doosan moves up to 0.003" during 60-90 minutes before getting stable. Might be an isolated issue with our machine though, the dealer is looking into it.
Still, would go doosan again without hesitation, just for the noise...
Funny you mention the Parts Catcher on the Doosan ?
They can be sort of fixed with a added on guard i guess you could call it.
Thermal Stability dramas ?
This goes for most machines that don't have Thermal Comp built into a machine.
You would already know this by now.
But a morning warm up before making parts normally settles down the worst machines.
This is where the bonus of Lights Out Machining comes in very handy other than the obvious reasons.
Because the temperature is more stable at night than day.
All the best with your latest Doosan purchase.
Definitely a Great machine to buy.
I have had the same issues with my Lynx 220... Even after warming up, once it idles for a bit. You are already back to square 1 and chasing tolerance.
Dealing with such a swing became a headache on aluminum parts requiring +/- .0005
No coolant chiller or glass scales on mine. Might as well had gotten another machine that didn't require those extra bells and whistles. amukO
Just be careful when selecting machines for your parts. I wish me and my dad had known when bought our Lynx.
@@peterCheater
Still having dramas with runout ??
This has more to do with the Mechanicals of the machine.
Not so much the brand of the machine.
Especially after a warm up procedure.
If you're still chasing tolerance after a warm up.
It's more than lightly a problem with the Ball Screw.
Could be also Linear Slides.
But usually not as common as Ball Screw problems.
220 LYNX is a fairly old machine now.
But saying that i have no idea of the hours on your machine ??
Can only gauge by the build date ??
But in general it has had enough time to start to wear out parts.
Might be a good time to do a basic repeatability test to see how your machine is operating.
Can definitely understand your frustration when this happens.
But it could be time to do some basic test.
Before blaming a particular brand of machine.
Just saying 😌 👍
@@weldmachine Thanks Weld!
Frustrating indeed. Ive only been in the industry for 3 years.
Machine is 2017 Lynx 220 LSY. Got it after our boxway 1994 Hardinge T51 took the shitter.
Did a simlpl back lash this past week and saw a .0004 back lash on the X. Adjusted the parameters. Hopefully that should've resolved a part of the issue.
Kind of disheartening to see that variation.
I recently learned that there is a new Lynx model 2600sy being released this year, likely positioned to sell against the St-20/25. The 2600 has BMT-55 and 3" bar capacity and similar work envelope to ST-20/25.
Seen the same machine also.
All the things the LYNX 220/210 should be is already included in the
LYNX 2600
It's as close to buying a Doosan Puma as you could go without spending
the $$$$$.
I definitely like the Big Bore Spindle which is fairly common on most CNC Lathes now but a huge plus if looking at buying a new Lathe.
The heavier duty Live Tools is another plus.
Never really liked the LYNX 220/210 that much, a great machine but the Live Tools
are Not so good,
Great for Drilling & Tapping some light duty Milling that's about it.
The other plus i like with the Doosan range is you can option the machines with a Siemens Controller.
Haas has overhead lights but they only come on when the door is open. It is nice for when setting up.
Going from haas to the doosan control is very tough but once you get used to it its not a big deal
Would be interested in another update. Which machine has been down for maintenance more at this point. Also I think the Haas works for you well building small parts but the Doosan is built for more rigidity and larger parts making it more reliable with less downtime in my opinion. We machine large 12” OD parts and our Haas machines don’t hold up as well as the Doosan does. We have 30 Haas machines and only 2 Doosan machines but convincing me to buy another Haas would be a touch sell I think unless you plan ahead to replace them every 5-6 years
the pricing on Haas in the uk must be different to over the pond. No prices given by any machine supplier until they waffle you for over an hour of your life. I'm currently shortlisting a first new machine purchase and it would be easier if you had a guide price to work to first. Thanks for the reviews, very informative
Agreed. I'll be looking for a new turning center in the next year and I had no idea Doosan was even in a comparable price range to Haas. I would've skipped right over them if not for these videos.
I can whole heartedly agree and give credit to the Haas control for how intuitive it is, but most if not almost all Fanuc controls have rotary selector switches for rapids feeds speeds that are much more intuitive to use in my opinion
When I am finishing a setup and walking thru the program, being able to twist the rapid selector becomes mindless as opposed to the rapid buttons on the Haas control.
Subtle, and possibly nitpicky, but I feel others will agree on this that use a Fanuc control daily in their work.
When you use something daily, minor details as those make a tremendous difference. Same goes for CAD CAM software, a couple of clicks more for the same result makes hours at the end of the month.
My dream controller is a Haas with rotary knobs for the overrides. 😀
It would be interesting to know what coolant maintenance is like between the machines. The Haas DS30Y that we have allows the coolant tank to be slid out and quickly cleaned. What's the Doosan like? With one exception, a Nakamura WT100, all of our lathes have been Haas. We just sold the oldest one last year and it showed 1.95 MILLION tool changes on the diagnostics page. It has run reliably except for a tailstock encoder for 20 years and held tolerances of .0005" throughout its life.
Coolant access is similar. The Doosan tank rolls out the front and the Haas rolls out the side. The Doosan includes a tramp oil skimmer as a standard feature!
Been using My Haas SL 30's since 1999 , and they run really good . Consistently hold .001 after warm up. The new ST's are supposedly even better, so I am not surprised. Just gotta Bar feed for my 2005 SL-30 so I am glad to hear they work good. Thank You for the insight Jay
Had an early 2000s HAAS SL10. Was near a bay door. This was in Denver. In winter, if someone opened the bay door for more than a couple minutes, my next part was scrap. The machine also wouldn't run stainless, would just alarm out :( Had no "butt" to it at all. Drive belts snapped every few months. Part catcher never worked as far as I know. You can probably chalk most of this up to terrible maintenance, but from my experience, I'd rather spend an extra few bucks on a lathe than a HAAS. Not for a mill though. I'd buy a HAAS VF anything any day. Did a NASA part on a HAAS mill once, LOL. And we had DMU MORIs and Mazaks, nope, put it on the HAAS :D
@@jerryherrin6470, Interesting Jerry, I have only the Geared Head lathes and I have machined lot's of Stainless and lots Inconel 625 with no big problems. Maybe the direct belt drives are just not that powerful.
@@jerryherrin6470 yeah haas are alot better than people give them credit for
@@dominic6634They still use an electric stove element for a brake resistor? We have one and always joke about cooking breakfast on it.
We have a early 2000s model SL-20 and I love that lathe. I run I625, C276, etc on it all the time and it’s a powerhouse lol but we also have other haas that are shit lol just depends on model and ours is a VDI style holders so the holders have a lock pin and they have a nut that screws from the back of the turret. I might be talking out my ass but I feel that makes it more ridged.
Some interesting pros and cons. I'm considering switching from HAAS to the exact Doosan you have. We've had huge reliability issues with our HAAS lathe and when the engineers are saying the lathes should be avoided at the moment that's saying something. Also explored Hurco but not hearing some greats things from a few customers with 2018/2019 lathes. Feels like a minefield for buying lathes right now. On the plus side the mills I hear from HAAS are rock solid
Can you please share what haas has to improve?
I consider to buy one and the last thing I want is problem as a startup.
If you watched the video, their Doosan was the machine with reliability issues.
@@ClockworksOfGL at 14 months. Mine has seriously not been without a fault for more than 6 weeks at a time. Owned for a little over 2 years
@@aronandreas generally the build quality and checks coming out of the factory. A small but main list was that the spindle was off centre from the tooling by height by 1.5mm and we're in our third live axis unit, second door, 4th live axis cable, 3rd servo drive unit. I've got a list bigger then a technical manual. The one thing I really do love about HAAS is the control. The control is super easy to use. But it's full of bugs, some fairly dangerous. Had an engineer's hand trapped twice by the bar pushed because it didn't dump air off
I can't comment about the Hurco Lathes, but the Mills are lighyears smarter and more heavily built than Haas. I will say that It took me awhile to do things with Winmax without having to think about it, but it is arguably the most advanced conversational control on the market.
Jay if you think that turret bearing is annoying wait till your haas is a week out of warranty and that Air cylinder that locks the turret starts leaking air and pushes all the oil out of the turret, haas was nice enough to charge me to fix it, with their simple design flaw, the gearbox doesn't have a breather in it. Oh yeah I said a week out of warranty. They have no problem saying it's out of warranty and not our problem.
Thanks for the video.
Really love the way you make your videos. 👍
I tried to get a price for a doosan At my local dealer and left after an hour without an actual price, though he was all about getting my information to get the ball rolling on a loan for it.
Lol I've tried something similar for tooling and I just get run around in circles. They really only care about the big shops
@@dominic6634Where are you located? My area has excellent service. We can have a machine in a week, like on our floor and cutting jaws.
Amazing intel, thanks. Right now i am stuck at work with coming up with an idea for automation for our lathe which runs small batches.
Glad you could get some good info from our video!
We use feature cam to program an st20y to interpolate using C. It involved the G128 I think, it's not amazing but it works. I've finished 3d surfaces using basically a steep shallow tool path with the spindle acting as C and a live tooling head with a ball nose endmill. I've got pics of some parts if u want DM me
Coming from the Haas lathe control and now having the Doosan ez guide mode(or whatever it's called), there was basically no learning curve. I would say they are both equally easy to use. Now the standard fanuc side, I still have no idea how to use it. The Puma does come standard with the auto tool setter arm. I wish the Lynx did as well for in process tool checks but I don't think it's even an option. As for holding size, the CL-1 held tenths regardless if it was hot or cold and the Lynx seems to move about .001" as it warms up but then it holds size all day once its up to temp. I'm assuming that's because it's a much larger casting and thermal expansion is more noticeable which I'm sure the larger haas lathe experience the same thing.
How's your Cl-1 nick? Any issues?
Lynx 220LM, cuts underside 0.03-0.05mm (machine that was crashed many times) in the morning, but after two/three simple parts it´s all good
Used to sell machines for a company here in Southern California, and I’ll speak for myself, but I never looked at the quality of the shop and thought about the price they could afford to pay. I always just tried to get them the best deal possible because there was so much competition on simply getting the machine sold. Maybe Haas shows the prices like that because they don’t feel like they have as much competition.
Maybe ALL companies should show pricing. Secret pricing leaves it to the salesperson to see how much they can squeeze out of their customers.
Even if the individual sales rep is truly looking out to score a good sale and be price competitive (And I know many are really trying to be positive support for their clients) because of well, everything... it's hard to trust that as a customer until longer term basis of trust is there. And many to-be-customers do probably loose out on some great opportunities as a result which is a shame.
I'm sure plenty of people are getting smoking deals below list for Haas stuff, even outside the ridiculous sales, but if I can at least look at the website and go "yeah that's the price they're listed at, and the sales guy is giving me a price a bit better than that" then at least I trust they aren't taking me for a ride. They might give other people better deals, that's great for them, I just like knowing that I can start somewhere and the sales guy knows I have that data.
And especially for smaller shops and startups the ability to just see all the prices right there, so you know where a VF2 sits in comparison to the VF4 or the TM2 or the UMC500 or so-on. That can help say "we have been eyeing a TM2, but the VF2 is only a tiny bit more and has all these extra features"
In fact that's what happened with our startup. Had we just been going by the sales guy who knew we were interested in the TM and had given quotes on that, we'd have been looking down the tunnel of TM stuff and been in a bit of a bubble. We might not have realized we would essentially paying for a loaded TM that could have just as easily been a base model VF that is a better machine in every way for us. A really keen Sales person might have seen that and made the suggestion, but part of me isn't sure. And certainly the website having pricing on it let us figure this out and change course at the last minute.
@@rgetso I don't trust any company that won't publish the price for the same reason.
Haas has the DS-30Y which is a true dual spindle lathe not sure if the interpolation issues are addressed with the DS-30Y or not though.
I run a DS-30Y and there's still no interpolation. It does have a brake however and is far more substantial than just a 'finishing spindle' but unforuntately no interpolation.
Some great points in the review. I own a HAAS SL-20 and a Mori NL2500SY as well as a Robodrill. Fanuc control is a pain to train on but so reliable, the Doosan is an exact copy of a Mori NL (one of the most popular lathes ever sold). I would never buy a live tool sub spindle lathe without full C axis on sub and I’m surprised haas would release one with only orientation. Orientation on my haas mill is pointless because it has a rubber coupling between spindle and motor so is not accurate (not sure how solid it is on Haas lathe sub) Love the Haas control. Hopefully Fanuc will sort the user friendly side of their control out as it really is a joke to a new user compared to Haas. (Cncmedcom pty Ltd)
I really wanted to buy a new Doosan a few months ago, but I went with a new Haas ST20Y. It was due to the Fanuc controls and having 20 x more button presses to do anything like touching off tools or loading a file from USB. Not very well thought out by Fanuc and then the graphics version running on top of the hmi is Windows. Lastly, the Doosan has twice the horsepower as the Haas (look at current/amperage ratings) but then uses a much smaller BMT45 turret vs Haas's BMT65. The machine looks really nice, much stiffer linear rails, nicer coolant tank, and rapids twice as fast, but the Fanuc controls killed it for me. I have several Haas machines so I'm used to them. The old Fadal requires spacebar to jump to different menus but still not as bad as the Fanuc.
But, how do you machine Salmon?
You ever experience hurcos? I’d love to see more TH-cam content involving them.
Either you got a good Haas Lathe, we got one that's not so good, or Haas has come a long ways with their new machines, when it comes to holding size. When running a long running job on our 2006 SL-10, I have seen between 0.003" and 0.007" change from start up to "operating temperature." And it usually takes between 4 and 6 hours of constant running before it finally settles down. If we stop it for lunch, we have to start over again, to a certain point, after lunch. Also, you mention the auto touch probe auto adjusts sizes while running at night, lights out? I am curious how that works. Not how the arm itself works, but making sure the part is the right size. We touch off tools on our manual probe, and that will get you within 0.005" of the correct size on the part. But it's never perfect. I guess if you are dealing with +/-0.015" for tolerances, that would be OK. We deal with parts having 0.0005" total tolerance on some features. Major difference there. An order of magnitude difference, just from where we touched off the tool! Certainly not saying the SL-10 we have is a bad machine. It is just much different than what you are talking about in these two categories.
Have both machines too.
But cycletime at Doosan 328 sec and at Haas 379 sec with quite less Quality!!
Thinking Haas is good enough for Americans but the rest of the world would prefer....
NOT THE HAAS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! The productivity is like their F1-Team , below the average.
Changing my Hass to another Doosan Lynx at 31th of July and im HAPPY with that . Greets from Germany
Which makers do you think are above average? the F-1s? how would you rank them? Im still learning about cnc 5-axis world and its certainly vast, lots of machine manufacturers out there 😳 matsuura, mazak, dmg-mori, makino....there are also less well known brands but seen very high quality too ... ufff a very long etc ..... 😬
Where I work I run a 2008 sl30 old controller no live tooling or y or bar feeder. I got the royal cutoff and bar puller and made some parts catchers to attach to the tailstock. And my boss is liking it even being against the shop switching more to cnc and making new instead of reparing. Just took delivery of a ST35 LY, unfortunately one rail has a massive ding in it. Can't wait to play with the live tooling and learn to program that. What's your solution for holding live tooling heads out of the machine and it says not to change tooling in the machine as it could damage it.
Most people change tools inside the machine using the proper spindle stops. You just don't want to put any tightening torque on the gears.
2nd ops on parts made on a single spindle 2 axis lathe are using up tons of my time. We just can't afford a multi spindle machine at this point.
Yup. It's always a tradeoff between time and money!
Doorsan +10
Thanks, Jay
When you go and buy a machine for your shop, do you buy new? Do you buy used? What's your philosophy?
My parents are school bus contractors and when they go buy a bus, they do their best to buy new because they don't want to deal with someone elses problems from a used bus. They would rather work through their own problems with a new bus.
It depends on the brand, year and hours. A used machine is a great way to avoid instant depreciation.
@@PiersonWorkholding what is red flag in a used machine?
If the spindle hours and motion hours are very close. If they are, you can tell they didn't warm up the spindles every morning.
@@PiersonWorkholding What are some others?
@Pierson Workholding Would you consider relaying the machine red, amber, green traffic lights onto a board in your office? Nay, even network them somehow?
Think how many slight neck movements you could save!
The Haas NextGen controllers have an app that you can use to see the status of the machine.
Used a lot of LNS bar feeders. I think I had to manually feed each one of them. Terrible terrible devices that aren't worth their value in scrap metal. I've heard horror stories about HAAS feeders too though. Either not working outright or just being shotty. Only bar feeder I trust these days are the ones on swiss citizens.
Used to run an old LNS on a Haas using a M-code to feed. Worked well except for the hydraulic oil mess.
Next time buy doosan with simens control ,the best control ever
I agree. Siemens is without doubt the Best control ever made.
@@nikolaiownz Mills are trying to sell me the Fanuc control Instead of the Siemens. I asked about the Siemens because j heard just this. Kinda confused why they would push Fanuc
@@HudsonLighting i have used fanuc, Siemens, heidenhein and okuma. And siemens is by far the best control if you ask me.
I used to be mazak boy, now I'm working on doosan 3100lxy with siemens 828 d ,without training ,I will pick-up that control on my self ,doosan lathe with this control eat our mazak 350
@@officialgoldboy5472 ive ran some. Mazatrol and I dident like it one bit. But I am not a conversational fan at All.
Hello.
Did you take a look at the SMEC sl2000asy before deciding what lathe you would buy?
I am looking for opinions about this lathe...
Thank you.
Samsung's are great machines with good iron. They are very comparable to Doosan and about 5-10% less expensive. Support in my area isn't as prominent as Doosan though.
What kind of materials are you cutting on the lathes ?
Everything from 50 Rc 4140 to 6061-T6 Aluminum
Get a doosan mill next, you'll love it, got a DNM, its SO much better than my VF4ss
Why is it better?
@@PiersonWorkholding Honestly for me, its the power and reliability that i get from doosan, haas never gave me that, doosan give you so much more standard than haas did, EG, roller ways, 12k spindle, Face contact spindle, 20 bar tsc, its all standard! plus, the dealer was cheaper than haas by a few grand, Very surprising. For the same size machine doosan i think weighs 2 ton more, you should see the casting on it, its huge compared to my haas. DNM 6700 - VF4SS, but I'm not going to deny haas just because they're haas, its experience from both brands, I started on a ol scrapper haas and I wouldn't be where I am today without it.
@@PiersonWorkholding HAAS VMC is "narrow C-frame design" and Doosan VMC column is "wide C-frame design". On the HAAS design in X plus and minus table hangs in the air. Doosan pros or also stronger spindle motor, stronger feed axis motor, bigger profile of linear ways, and roller ways against ball ways, bigger ball screw diameter, and Doosan ball screws are anchored on both sides with 3 bearings, while HAAS ball screw hangs, so thermal expansion on X and Y cannot be controlled on the HAAS
How much thermal differences are you getting at Doosan?
@@blacklabeloffroad Thanks for info! Im asking this since we have one of the Lynx 2100LSYA and we actually run into .0014" in the morning and it's quite frustrating for us. Trying to find solution for that...
If you wanted the ability to interpolate with the secondary spindle then why not buy a DS-30?
Never said we wanted it. The DS30 is a totally different machine.
Ds-30 does not have full c-axis on sub either.
What's a spindal? :P
European spelling... trying to be inclusive 🤣
Getting doosan with fanuc is bigest mistake you will ever make. Pay for Siemens, considered best for a good reason
Looking in from the outside of never using a haas, it seems like haas is running their company the same way the American car manufacturers do by focusing on selling a car with lots of features the public wants, instead of a truly well built car with decent features. You know, feeding on that "disposable" immediate gratification mentality.
The Doosan should allow you to spec Siemens or Heidenhain controls and use Fanuc as a default ,so thats a Pro.
Once you give the Siemens a try you won't go back , its super efficient and can be programmed in 3 different methods.
Thermal stability: Ive seen upto 20um -30um from initial first component to say 10th depending on cutting loads.
Im convinced its not only m/c warmup but rather the general temp rise within the enclosure,turret ,tool holder,coolant temp and bar to be machined tha have an effect.
HAAS parts catcher is a very bad design..have used it on sl20 alot.. the lid in the door jams all the time, or u often get long chips stuck in that tray. Alot of times small parts just bounce on that tray, and u can never find them again.. or just get stuck at the opening in the door
✅ Tired of making 1 part at a time? 👉 bit.ly/3xKUEOV
they both use samchully chucks?> ?>
🤖🤖
After owning three Okuma machines. I would never buy a haas.
Just want to remind everyone that this is Haas vs Doosan, not Haas vs Okuma.
After my bad experience with a haas dealer trying to screw me with a new maching that was .0015” out and programming a customer machine that was +.003” out. I would never buy one are recommended any. I know theirs other very good machines out their.
Lol. Okuma is not even close in price to a Haas man. Doosan is much closer to price of an optioned up Haas and I think I may bet a Doosan as my next mill and maybe get rid of my haas.
Hass had to make it easy for the Russian defense manufacturing companies could run it