So, a couple things: UK vs. Germany will not conclude the Series 6 uploads just yet. I'm also going to replace Heat's I and J. These were the two Heats with notable sound problems, and Toast is kindly providing his copies of these episodes, too. I also want to know what you guys would like uploaded next out of Extreme 2 or Series 2. I'm planning the latter, but if there's a massive opinion for Extreme 2, I'll do that instead.
Super controversial final, I actually think that if Razer moved away and left Tornado suspended above the pit, it would’ve proved that Tornado were in/above the pit and unable to drive away, then Razer definitely would’ve won the final
36:54 is proof that Tornado couldn't have escaped its dead spot over the pit whether Razer was holding it there or not. Sure, its front-right wheel guard is up on the edge of the pit, but not to where the front-right wheel itself can gain traction to climb away. Just like Probophobia didn't need to withdraw its weapon from Snake Bite when it pitted the latter in Extreme Warriors Season 2, neither should Razer have had to do so with Tornado when it immobilised the latter over the pit. It should've been a win for Razer right there.
Yes I agree with benspurs but - Razer couldn't let go of Tornado at that point, and when the clock stopped Razer had backed off and was holding Tornado part way over the pit. And lifting another robot off the ground I don't think ever counted as 'immobilising' them. If you freeze frame at the moment the clock stopped at 37:07, IF Razer had been able to let go at that moment, Tornado would have fallen into the pit (so much for being 'impossible to pit). But Razer couldn't let go.
This is a fantastic grad final and razer lifting tornado at the end was some of the best drama in any robot wars fight. But I don’t understand why tornado was allowed to add an extension that prevented them from going into the pit surely that should have been a rule
It was a rule but by this point they were pulling stunts like this to cause controversy, the fact is they are over the pit and couldn't drive away so they WERE IN the pit ffs. It got stupid by this point for producers getting involved and causing some of the most pathetic stunts and it ruined the show. Storm 2 Vs Typhoon 2 was probably the final straw for a lot of them, Storm 2 vs Supernova was just the icing on the cake for it.
@@therebel4332 i just think that the point was that there was so little time left that razer haven't left tornado in the pit alone and by moving back it could have set tornado free
Yeah not being able to fall in the pit but even still they could immobilize them over it.the only argue tornado has is it dominated the push and pull war and looked to have been beaten too late to not win a decision. Uktjmiatel I wouldn't let them use a modification as ridiculous as that
@@digitaldeathsquid3448 also, the fact that the fight ended with tornado at least as, if not *more* disabled, than any robot's that don't have bullshit frame weldings on when they get pitted. Razer pitted them at the end, and despite their frame meaning they didn't fit, then were still completely disabled by the pit trap, which normally results in an instant win.
For me, this is easily top 3. Can't decide between this, season 5 and season 4. All had their fair share of incredible moments. Probably would go for series 5 just based on percentage of great battles with 3 out of 4 being absolute classics compared to only two in this being noteworthy and the same with season 4 but all 3 are incredible and are easily in my top 5 episodes of robot wars ever
Tornado didn't go into the pit but was suspended, and Tornado was in full control the entire time once it broke Razor's claw. Razor could only hang on, but rarely got any actual damage in or resist most of Tornado's advances. IMO, Tornado was in control the entire time and won that match fair and square.
@@EVAUnit4A "fair" using bull shit frame to not fit in the pit. Still disabled. And dude its frame was bent to shit. Tornado got lucky razor got stuck.
38:16 "Inspect robots for dmg" Tornado: Extra Shielding frame really bent, main weapon doesn't work, got put over the pit and couldn't get out, so therefor he was in the pit. Razer: A lot of scratchs, all 4 wheels still turn, hydrolique weapon still fully fonctionnal, only minor bent on the added hook part. The public: Razer The Judge: Yep, Tornado is our winner. The Public: Bruh
What annoys me most is that Tornado has always played the victim card before and after this. Complaining that judges and producers were biased against them. Yea, there's bias alright, they let you get away with that frame bullshit
@@grandmasterfarmer4792 That was near the end, to be fair. If they had another minute or two, they could've immobilised them. People complain about the frame a lot, but honestly, it would've been their undoing if Razer managed to do whatever it was they did near the end again, and get them properly stuck in there. The frame would've done Tornado in, ironically. Was a good fight eitherway. Yes, I am aware I am responding to a 2 year old comment. Hello, stranger from the past!
That final was an amazing fight, despite the pit controversy, that fight was good as both robots were slamming and having a good go at each other. And the house robots getting their teeth into both robots and not treating razer as daily as before. There series finals and semi finals always are a highlight of robot wars / combat in general.
Although Firestorm 4 and Terrorhurtz finished 3rd and 4th respectively, they would be seeded 2nd and 3rd for Series 7 due to Razer not returning. (Terrorhurtz would be disqualified however for arriving in an unfinished state though.)
25:00 "That's gonna be moving at Christmas in the year 2050, that axe." Hearing that made me feel a little bad that that axe shaft only made it to 2017 before being SIA during the World Series, against Terrorhurtz itself no less.
I'm not a huge fan of Razer either, but I really hate Tornado. They don't do anything. My dislike of them started when they got super cocky about fighting Wheely Big Cheese in Series 4 - seeing them beaten by Díotóir in Series 5 made me very happy.
This was a bastard move, perhaps, but really clever, and legal. The direct bounds of the pit (200cm x 140cm - Tornado's anti-Razer device was 194cm x 135cm), but that doesn't make it irrelevant. Robots like The Morgue and Major Tom could both fit over the pit, but could still be pitted if placed at the right angle, same with Tornado, and weren't counted as out based solely on the grounds that they couldn't fit over the pit, but because they were, feasibly, immobilised. Had Tornado been deposited diagonally, they would've definitely been pitted in some manner (look at 36:59 - they WERE trying), and therefore, legally out. They still have to be put in the pit, and could definitely still fall victim to it theoretically even in normal circumstances (if Razer pressed the pit button as Tornado drives over it - didn't happen in the fight, but feasible). The fact that Tornado was completely over the pit at 36:54 is irrelevant, as Razer immediately moved them back out of it, thus preventing a proper elimination from being called. It'd be no different to if Sir Killalot held Tornado over it, or if Razer had held regular Tornado over it before backing away. Of course, robots like Probophobia didn't have to withdraw its weapon from Snake Bite, but that's a different show for a different country, and beyond that, the chance that Snake Bite could get out of a put that had been activated were null and void, they were literally at the bottom of it. Razer had difficulty raising its crusher at the end, sure, but that wasn't down to Tornado's device, that was down to the lifting spike on Razer's beak - WILLINGLY ADDED BY TEAM RAZER. The inability to leave at the end of it was down to their own weapon being faulty - and that's not grounds to disqualify Tornado over. There are no grounds to highlight that the weapon was illegal, beyond that. It wasn't just defensive; Razer got hit several times by the blade, with notable impacts. It was flimsy, perhaps, but again, that isn't a problem except for the robot itself. It's not as though the judges turned a blind eye to Tornado's weapon system, either; the team did make an anti-Spinner and anti-Axe device, but those were ruled illegal by the judges after the teams of Hypno-Disc and Dominator 2 filed a complaint, as they were literally just defensive weapons, and as such, illegal (which really should've disqualified Storm 2 in the S7 Semis, but 🤷♀, I'm defending Mentorn here, but at times they definitely had weird rulings). Hell, even Team Razer themselves praised it as ingenious, they accepted defeat much better than half of this comment section today. The real controversy is that Tornado was ruled the winner the first time this device was used in Extreme Warriors 2, not here.
As a razer fan I can definitely accept this verdict. Also agree with your point on extreme warriors. For me that is the better fight so I would have preferred that as the final. Don't get me wrong that this fight is incredible with all the drama but I personally prefer the exw as an overall fight, even if I disagree with that result more than anyone should with this
Razer FINISHED tornado at the end. If you Fit a Massive Scaffolding, bigger than the Pit, onto your robot, and then get pitted, only not to get Pitted, while already skirting with the rules, with late additions... The Judges REALLY let themselves down by NOT aknowledging that Razor Pitted him at the end. Tornado are UNWORTHY of the Number 1 Seed in my book.
That attack at 32:38 gives you some idea of what Hynodisc might have done to Razer if they ever met in battle....that impact spun razer round with quite some force. No doubt hyno disc would have hit a lot harder as well..... If hypno disc was quick, I think all it would need is one imact to one of razers wheels and it would be game over for Razer...but dont know if hypnodisc's weapon sits low enough to hit the wheels.... Man I would LOVE to see that fight... but I think Hynodisc would win....... It is also interesting how pussycat took out hypno disc and razer in exactly the same way... by chopping up the wheels
Hypno Disc not winning series 5 was gutting. One fluke from Bigger Brother , 2 seconds of loss of concentration cost them the title. As I truly believe they would have beaten Razor in the final.
It's why the Razer team always asked the production team to keep their precious away from spinners, because it would get fucked up. Pussycat was the one time they went up against a decent bot with a blade in competition, and it got fucked angry.🤣
Wheely Big Cheese was longer than the pit, but within the maximum allowed length. Nobody complained. S3 was wider than the pit, but within the maximum allowed width. Nobody complained. Tornado did both, but was within the maximum allowed for both. Thousands threw their toys out of the pram.
I think the big difference here is that, S3 and wheel big cheese still fit within the pit, tornado didn't. Obviously not their fault, they just exploited the rules, but still shitty
@@monkeyatanofficedesk9253Then what about robots like black widow and eleven who were significantly larger than those machines? Wheely big cheese went into the pit in series 4 but wasn't deemed to be out
@@monkeyatanofficedesk9253 yet there wasn’t any outrage over them being larger than the pit. This is the point I’m making. It was only a problem when it was tornado and the fact that Razer couldn’t let them go.
@tombardsley3081 Tornado wasn't a walker tho, it wasn't bigger because it needed to be (although I don't personally think walkers needed the extra weight and size) it was like that specifically to not fit in the pit, which is scummy
If Razer had managed to get Tornado in the position it was in at the end with even a little bit of time on the clock, I think they'd rightly be considered the winners as Tornado would be unable to move. As it was otherwise, Tornado won on almost every category.
35:59 Its very satisfying to see the "lightweight" shunt lifting up one of the deadliest competitor robots like it is a piece of junk... and same for dead metal at 35:32.... you can almost feel the anxiety of the razer team desperate to get razer away from dead metal....
Looking back at it as an adult. I really appreciate the design of razer and technically they won. It's a fantastic robot. But tornado was amazing kit as well just not as good as razer in my view. But as a kid I was a tornado fan.
Technically speaking Tornado didn't cheat, as what it did was within the rules. But the rules were part of the problem with how inconsistent they were.
Not entirely true. They were told they weren't allowed specific defence modifications between fights after their fight with Hypnodisc, and there's no way you can claim that cage is not defence-orientated.
Is it just me that thinks Team Tornado were clever in planning a weapon purely for Razer at the very beginning of the wars? The judges were clearly aware of the design long before the final, as they approved it. I think the rules about a robot not being larger than the pit were introduced in the following series, but series 7 is where the bad judge's decisions started to come into play where the producers were deciding who to go through purely based on the popularity of the robot rather than the winner of the battle.
I think the issue many have is the fact that the weapon, in this case, wasn't actually just "changed out" but WELDED to the chassis of the bot....which is a permanent modification. Technically, against the rules....but overlooked by production for the "excitement" factor.
@@RidleeFox sometimes you can admire clever cheats of the system. I'm not sure how it was pre-approved prior to the series, they must have lied about the interchangeableness of it.
@@tdyerwestfield Those who manage to utilise and loophole through the rules in the spirit of the game, I can get behind. If the cage/weapon had been something that attached via the same attachment point as all the previous ones and sat around the bot.....that would have been fine and, I suspect, this is likely what was presented in the pre-approved set of interchangable weapons (a cage attached to a spinning blade which "clunked" into the front weapon mount). But....welding it onto the chassis....that was a clear violation of the rules at the time which stated you couldn't make permanent modifications to your bot during the course of the competition to give yourself and "edge" against specific opponents. I remember reading through entry packs back then as myself and a group were considering entering.
I remember this final fight more than any other from Robot Wars which I loved so much. It was controversial, and as much as I wanted Razer to win, I felt Tornado deserved it because of pure ingenuity and well-thought out strategy to have an "anti-Razer" weapon (lets face it, its all about the frame, not the spinning 'weapon' which wasn't very good, it was designed to keep Razer out to push them round with Tornado's 4WD, very clever). Despite my conflict.... this is the one fight I would say, due to how it ends, that should have been called a draw (controversial in itself) as Tornado WOULD have effectively been immobilised OVER the pit due to where Razer left them right at the death. I loved this show at it's peak so much because it gave us stories like this to remember.
The first fact is that Razer in any other scenario should have won - because Tornado were directly over the pit and could not have gotten out. The problem is that TECHNICALLY Tornado didn't go IN the pit so you could TECHNICALLY argue that they were still in the game. If you agree with that, then the battle was a simple judges decision, and I will concede that based purely on the fight before that pitting, Tornado dominated Razer. This makes me think that Tornado were DESERVING of a win in this battle, but I do still think that Razer actually won. It's a lot closer in my head now that I have rewatched the battle again, but still I think Razer won. In a fight that ends in a pitting, it doesn't matter who was in the lead or who deserved it more - it matters who is in the pit - just think Hypno-Disc vs Bigger Brother. Bigger Brother's shell was in tatters and the flipper had been disintegrated, but due to incredible build quality and some excellent driving, they managed to pit Hypno-Disc. Tornado was over the pit, and if Razer had had another couple of seconds to get away, Tornado would have been left suspended above the pit. Even if it didn't count as a pitting, it would have counted as an immobilisation. Robots who have gotten stuck on their own body work have been counted out in the past. I will accept that the frame was of a legal size within the rules - an oversight by the producers, and that saying that Tornado were bad sports is both irrelevant because it was 19 years ago and also because sportsmanship doesn't count in the arena. That being said, imo they shouldn't have been given the victory because they were technically immobilised. Also, while winning IS the point, Tornado's attitude towards the victory still leaves a bad taste in my mouth, because it feels in complete contrast to the sportsmanship and graciousness we usually saw on Robot Wars. Tornado did show themselves to be helpful in the pits - donating parts and helping to rebuild Wild Thing - but exploiting loopholes to win when they were already in with a fair shot, and then being smug about it? It just feels a bit gross and cheap to me.
Agree with all of this except the immobile part. Razer was still holding on to tornado so there’s no guarantee that tornado were immobile. Razer were technically immobilised earlier in the fight but the ref bot helped them out .
I think the fact that parts of the frame were below the arena floor level and inside the pit should have been taken into account.....but Razor were still "holding" them. As you say, Razor needed to back up/let go. The damage Tornado had suffered was actually extremely heavy and should have counted against them a lot more. Their weapon wasn't functional.....that should have been a HUGE points deduction in terms of judging between the two bots. As in, Razor = fully functional, Tornado = Weapon inoperable. Agression can be called for both, really, since both were agressive (Razor kept going in on the attack just as much as Tornado). Style....there wasn't any style. Control, both bots displayed great control but, in the end, Razor won out because they took control of Tornado and put them on top of the pit. I know that, behind the scenes, the Razor lads weren't happy that Tornado was allowed to get away with welding the frame onto the chassis in order to "toughen" it when their "Interchangable weapon" was supposeed to just have that front contact area that it was locked into....I think that's why they were told "ok, you can modify Razor to counter it....but with only a short amount of time, they could only make that small extender for the "beak".
Dang it, Firestorm! Why did you flip Tornado back over? If you left them upside down you coulda beaten them! No hate on Tornado from me but… they made an error there.
It was "within" the rules but I'm sorry I'd have laughed at them if they came to get approval for that monstrosity, if only because it can't be pitted with it on and therefor breaks the rules. Not "bending" them it was straight up cheating on Tornados part and I'm a fan of the robot.
@@therebel4332 razer were told in advance what tornado were going to do and had plenty of warning to come up with their own solution, they chose some crappy little claw and didn't release tornado into the pit, just suspended them above it all was in the rules
Yes, but it would’ve needed to be raised completely vertical to slot down inside, with the anti-crusher lined up with diagonally opposing corners of the pit. And Razer couldn’t possibly have raised Tornado that high.
What a great season n what a terrible final! If this wasnt CHEATING then what is? Terrible judgement by judges. Horrible ending. Funny thing is, even with that cheating fence, razer put these losers in the pit but thanks to judges, they werent in the pit cuz their body size was larger than the pit. Robot wars producers really disgraced themselves by allowing this disaster happened.
The reason Tornado wasn't counted as pitted was because Razer couldn't detach itself and back away, not because Tornado couldn't fit inside. But that's still stupid. I get that you can't just immobilise your opponent by pinning them as you need to be sure that they can't recover when not being touched, but this was the pit Razer had Tornado immobile over, which means INSTANT ELIMINATION. And you can see by this video's thumbnail alone that Tornado couldn't possibly have escaped its dead spot whether Razer was grappled on or not. Just like Probophobia didn't have to withdraw its weapon from Snake Bite when it pitted the latter in Extreme Warriors 2, Razer shouldn't have had to do so with Tornado when it immobilised the latter over the pit.
@@warcraftlake7 It shouldn't have had to once it got Tornado into that immobile predicament over the pit, though, based on the logic I've already explained above. And it's Razer, not Razor. It can't even be a typo when the E and O keys have five other keys between them.
The fence wasn't cheating, as it was legal. Don't hate the player, hate the game. I do agree though, it was stupid that the Pit was smaller than the actual maximum width of an entered bot. I don't get how they allowed that to be a possibility. Besides, you want to complain about the fence? If it went on a bit longer, whatever Razer actually managed to do, to get a hold of them, I reckon they could've actually taken the win, had there been more time. The same fence that they devised solely to counter Razer's beak, could very well have ended in their defeat, if they did get themselves suspended and stuck above the Pit! I am aware this is two years old, by the way. Hello, stranger from the past!
Well, Terrorhurtz was really ill-matched against Razer - once Razer got its grip it was virtually impossible to hit. And here's JP *still* pratting on about Tornado's "unreliable drive train". (Or are they just replaying the same intro over and over again). When was the last time Tornado's drive broke down? And what the hell is Shunt doing? Tornado pushes Firestorm into the CPZ and Shunt axes Tornado. I thought it was the robot that was pushed in that was a legit target for attack? But then Firestorm pushes Tornado into the CPZ and Shunt axes Firestorm, so I dunno. But ignoring that, it was a thrilling pushing duel between two very quick and nimble robots - Tornado had slightly the upper hand but it could have gone either way. Terrorhurtz vs Firestorm - that was another frantic duel until Terrorhurtz's drive failed. But its axe did some spectacular damage to Firestorm in the short period that they were actively fighting. Very formidable. Firestorm come third again. But they're always a pleasure to watch. The final was actually a good battle. Tornado now has a weapon that can reach Razer and Razer have a lifting hook specially designed to catch Tornado. Well that was all Tornado on points. If Razer had managed to suspend Tornado over the pit at the last moment they would have snatched victory but they couldn't quite make it. Still, credit to the Razer team and Ian Lewis for accepting defeat gracefully. And - has to be said - I have a lot more respect for the Razer team than some of their whiny sour-grapes fans in the comments section. No Tornado did not cheat by fitting an anti-Razer frame. All through the Wars bots have added extra bits of armour or changed weapons to fight a particular opponent. Razer added the hook to their beak specifically to hook on to Tornado's frame - that wasn't cheating was it? And Tornado's frame was anti-Razer, not anti-pit (that was just some bullshit of blabbermouth JP's invention. *Any* bot that was the maximum legal size wouldn't have fitted down the pit any easier). If Razer had been able to let go of Tornado at the moment the clock ran out, Tornado would have fallen into the pit - freeze the vid at 37:07. But Razer couldn't let go so Tornado didn't fall in. As to whether they were actually 'immobilised' over the pit - and whether that should have won at the last minute for Razer - that's for the judges to decide and not something either side could 'cheat' about.
How anyone can agree with Tornado's actions is beyond me. Here's what they always come out with... _"What Tornado did was innovative and it outsmarted Razer. And Tornado's style is interchangeable weaponry."_ That's no excuse. There's a big difference between interchangeable weaponry and modifying your robot to render a specific opponent's attack methods useless. The latter's definitely the case with Tornado. And I know Razer did luckily manage to rip out Tornado's weapon motor in their previous encounter when it wasn't adapted at all to face the anti-crusher, but again, that's no excuse. The device was designed to give Razer no chance of reaching Tornado's chassis whatsoever. Its purpose and motives alone were so immoral that if it was up to me, I would've told the Tornado team not to use it or be disqualified from the competition. How can the Tornado team's actions be looked at as innovative or outsmarting even if it's technically true? They did nothing but rely on the anti-crusher to do all the work for them so they could easily steal a championship they didn't deserve. Some guy (whose name I won't mention) once said to me that by my logic Cassius was wrong to use its srimech, which I think is very insulting to Rex Garrod. Cassius' srimech WAS NOT like Tornado's anti-crusher. It was something to prevent instant elimination from getting turned over. It could spring back into action, but the opponent could still pit Cassius, immobilise it another way, or outdo it on point scoring for a judges' decision. Plus, the srimech was meant for use against ALL opponents. It wasn't something designed to render a specific opponent's attack methods useless. You want to know an example of adapting for weapons the proper way? The legalisation of entanglement weapons in Series 10. They were something to give spinners more of a challenge considering how dominant those weapons had become, but it didn't render them useless. It wasn't something set up to fuck Carbide over. I get that such individually specific devices are commonplace now, which at least means more consistency within the rules and better treatment for everyone, even though I still don't agree with the concept. But here wasn't the appropriate place for it, as I'll explain further in the next paragraph. _"Tornado didn't cheat - what they did was within the rules."_ The rules were part of the problem! Rules aren't always right, and in this case they were an inconsistent mess that allowed for Tornado to get away with their cheap and dirty tactics. Firstly, the officials saw how unfairly protective Tornado's anti-spinner was when it was meant for use against Hypno-Disc, and they banned it. Granted, it took the latter team to make an official complaint to get the judges to wake up, but the rule was still enforced. Yet they wouldn't do the same for the anti-crusher because the latter had a moving weapon on it. Why? So what if there are moving weapons on it? It's still a device designed for an unfair amount of protection from a specific opponent, therefore the anti-crusher should've been banned too. Secondly, what was the point of the pit being in the arena if robots were allowed to be big enough to prevent going in? Sure you could still be classed as being immobile over the pit (which I'll get back to), but the latter's just something to fall back on (no pun intended) in case for some unforeseen reason a robot won't go in, like with The Morgue in Series 4. The pit's designed for robots to be dumped down INTO it, not to be delicately placed on top. The latter's what the grilles in Series 1 were for. And thirdly, Razer DID have Tornado immobilised over the pit! But it didn't count because Razer's claw was still hooked into the frame and couldn't let go. Again, why? I understand the rule of not immobilising your opponent just by pinning them in place, as that'd be too easy and you can't always tell if the victim can escape by itself or not. But in Tornado's predicament, it was in a dead spot that it couldn't possibly escape from by itself whether Razer was still holding on or not. It's perfectly clear from this video's thumbnail alone. So that should've been a loss for Tornado right there. I am also aware Tornado could've been properly pitted even with the anti-crusher on, if it was raised completely vertical with either the front or back end of the frame going across the pit and slotting down inside. But let's face it, Razer couldn't possibly have done that without overbalancing and falling in itself. _"But if Tornado didn't adapt itself, the fight would've just been boringly one-sided with Razer predictably winning."_ Once again, that's no excuse. Roboteering isn't a movie, people. It's competition in REAL LIFE. You go in there to earn victory fairly and properly. And if something entertaining happens during the action, wonderful. It's always great when that happens. But if it doesn't, tough. You can't just force entertainment out of it. It happens naturally, if at all. In any case, competition is the main priority, not entertainment (regardless of whatever producers' meddling has happened in the show's history). And it shouldn't have to be adapted to pander to people who act as if it should be staged like professional wrestling. So your boredom is no excuse for Razer getting fucked over the way it did. I'd rather it be the most boring, one-sided, predictable battle in history with a rightful winner than a highly tense battle where cowardice gets rewarded. Do you Tornado supporters think you're cool or something just because you like getting behind the underdogs? There's a reason Razer won as much as it did. It's because it was one of the best designs and proved itself time and time again. I don't give a shit if you were bored by it - the machine legitimately earned its dominance and that's all that matters. And if you don't like that, that's your problem. Besides, it's completely arse-backwards to complain about a robot being so dominant when that's the point of the show! It's not as if Razer was invincible. As for the argument itself that Tornado wouldn't have had a chance against Razer without the anti-crusher web, just remember that Razer has been matched before without bullshit adaptations. Various competitors have managed to wedge underneath Razer to flip/topple it like Chaos 2, Behemoth and Gemini. Hell, even Cyrax did it in this very series and that robot was a rookie! You can't tell me after that that an experienced machine like Tornado couldn't have improved itself to outdo Razer's low ground clearance and its skid steer system. Plus, if you complain about Tornado having no chance against Razer but are fine with it being the other way round, you're fucking hypocrites. _"Well you're just a Razer fanboy."_ No, you're just a moron if you come out with that dogshit. I'm not a fanboy of any robot. I just hate it when cowardice is allowed, let alone rewarded. And I don't give a shit who's responsible for it. My argument is fuck-all to do with favouritism and you can't prove otherwise. Besides, there are other outcomes that have nothing to do with Razer or Tornado that I find bullshit, and I've never been called a fanboy of any of the robots I think were fucked over on those occasions. So, why give me the fanboy accusation just because I speak on behalf of Razer? The only possible motive you could have for that is that you were just personally sick of Razer's dominance prior to this controversy, making you fucking hypocrites to call anyone a Razer fanboy, as you're the ones with kind of bias _against_ the robot. Also, the only robots I've ever favoured above the others are Killertron in Series 2 and Hypno-Disc from Series 3 until its retirement. And even back then as a boy, I never thought _they_ had any victories stolen from them. Well (as I saw years later as an adult), Killertron lost its final fight when it rightfully should have won, but again, no one's called me a Killertron fanboy for pointing that out. _"Why can't you just get over it and move on? It happened a long time ago."_ Firstly, I don't give two shits. That's nothing more than a cop-out. An injustice that happened long ago in the past is still an injustice. Secondly, I'm not as affected as you think just because I have much to say about it. I just point out some things that I'm quite surprised people don't take into consideration. Thirdly, the only people who've ever told me to get over it and move on are those who disagree with my side of the argument, and I get the impression they just want me to agree with them and share their opinion. Those are two completely different things, you know. And I've never been told to get over it and move on by anyone who agrees with my side of the argument. And lastly, would you tell me to get over it and move on if I made a post like this on Storm 2 being fucked over in Series 7 when that too was a long time ago? If not, you're (again) hypocritical to ask differently of me in regards to _this_ controversy. I know none of my words will change history, but I'm happy to get some truth out there either way.
Ryan O'Donovan completely I agree. I'm a huge Hypno disk and panic attack fan. However the design changes is just insane and having it so huge is ridiculous.
How can people think that Razer won? He didn't drop Tornado onto the pit. He still had hold of him. You can't claim a robot is pitted if you are holding them over it. Tornado was on top for the entire fight, had Razer immobilised on the sidewall, pushed him into multiple CPZs, dented a couple of panels with the spinner in the early moments, Shunt dented a top panel. Definite Tornado win. Razer guys just got salty because somebody worked out a way to stop their boring grab and crush tactic. I remember welcoming this result when I was a kid watching it live, and my adult eyes still see this fight the same way
I think that although what Tornado did seems unfair i still do not think he cheated. If the people at robot wars allowed it after the game then it wasnt cheating. I do still think it was a cheap move but still not cheating. If i were running robot wars i would remove the modification rule.
I mean they probably just drive them surely? Most teams are from the British mainland so it'd be an easy drive, and the teams in Ireland can get the car ferry? So no paperwork required.
But they got out of the pit thanks to Razer. Being in the pit does not mean a fight is over. Cassius invented a way of getting out of it but sadly never got to use it.
Tornado was still unable to move out of the pit of its own volition. Same as The Morgue when up against firestorm in series 4. It was never fully dragged out of the pit and was surely disabled/immobilised due to its inability to leave the pit? Also this cassius thing sounds pretty interesting. Wonder if the judges would allow a fight to continue if they could lift themselves from oblivion.
But you have to be immobile for a select amount of time. Razer was also holding Tornado for 30 seconds which isn't allowed either. Yeah the Cassius thing would have been allowed. It had a huge spike coming out the back which Rex said on the show was a way of getting it out of the pit. It's not the pitting that ends the fight, it's the being stuck down there to ends it.
The immobile for a set ammount of time is a decent arguement also. But I personally acknowledge it as 'pitted' due to its inability to leave the pit area. Either way, unlike saying 'tornado cheated' (which is factually wrong) these are valid opinions. I dunno about that 30 second rule. I know that if robots are lodged together and the fight ceases progress because of this, they are broken up by force. With Razer there was often progress made with the fight, by moving the robots into arena hazards and house robots for example, meaning the binding is in a sense, meaningful. Oh, it was a spike, that is interesting. I would have liked to see a robot raise from the dead like that XD
In my opinion a very sour end to a really, really good series. It doesn't help that I generally find Razer fights to be a lot of "make a hole and then spend three minutes getting them in the pit", but while that wire frame may have been perfectly within the rules (which it really shouldn't be anyway if it makes it impossible to pit), it makes for an even more bloody boring final than it already would've been. Yes, it has some slight drama and tension, but there's so much dead air of just the two robots holding each other like a loving embrace. This series contains some of the best fights in the classic era as a whole and the grand final here definitely isn't one of them.
If you freeze frame the video at 37:07 (the last second of the countdown) and consider what would happen if Razer could just have let go, it's pretty obvious Tornado would instantly have fallen into the pit. So it was certainly possible to pit. Just that Razer couldn't let go at that moment.
Razer should've won. I remember a battle between Firestorm and The Morg where Firestorm went in the pit and Morg was on the edge but Morg lost as it was declared as actually being in the pit. Tornado was in the exact same situation. They were in the pit. Can't use one rule for one robot and one rule for all the others.
Yeah well, Tornado wasn't counted as being pitted like The Morgue was because Razer was still hooked on to Tornado's anti-crusher, unable to let go and drive away. And that's just one way the rules were stupidly inconsistent. I understand the rule of not immobilising your opponent just by pinning them in any spot in the arena, as that'd be too easy and you can't always tell if the opponent can escape under its own power or not. But it was glaringly obvious at 36:54 that Tornado couldn't have escaped from that dead spot whether it was held there or not.
Rules are extremely consistent. The Morgue was considered in the pit because it was released and couldnt escape - thus was immobile before Firestorm. Tornado was not in the pit, it was being held over the pit by Razer. All Razer had to do was release and back away and itd have won, but it didnt manage to do that. In the same sense, Chaos 2 vs Wild Thing was not considered a win for Wild Thing - even though Chaos 2 actually went inside the pit whilst being held there by Wild Thing. The rule here was consistent however as Wild Thing needed to release for Chaos 2 to be considered in the pit - which freed the robot.
@@Garfie489 The reason Chaos 2 wasn't classed as pitted when pushed to the edge by Wild Thing was because not only did the former not fall in, but it was able to escape on its own. Tornado couldn't possibly have done that at 36:54 whether Razer was holding it there or not, as all four of its wheels were in a spot that they couldn't gain traction. So Tornado should've been classed as pitted. Plus, there's no point in the pit even being in the arena if robots are allowed to be big enough to prevent going in. Sure, you can still be classed as pitted by being immobilised over it or stuck on the edge, but that's just something to fall back on (no pun intended) in case for some _unexpected_ reason the robot won't fit. The pit's designed for robots to GO IN, not to be delicately placed over it. The latter method of elimination is what the grilles in Series 1 were for. So no, the rules for being pitted were not consistent here, let alone "extremely".
It’s not being a “boring loser” to want the competition to not have cheapness and inconsistent rules. I’d respect Team Tornado if they _actually_ outdid Razer with their initial design, but they didn’t. They just welded scaffolding around their robot so that they couldn’t be touched, or even fit in the pit properly! That’s nothing to admire. And what’s this stupid argument of Razer’s attacks being “repetitive” all about? That’s what it’s designed for, like every other robot is designed for a certain type of attack, DUH!
@@ryanodonovan9497If a robot can get hard countered by scaffolding, it needs work. Even when Tornado was sort of pitted, Razer probably would’ve needed to let go in order for it to count. Aside from that, Tornado won 99% of that fight. Robot Combat is all about engineering, and guess what? Adapting to your opponent is good engineering.
@@codered9472 Firstly, there was _no_ engineering in the anti-crusher; only with the spinning blade, which was only there to exploit a stupid rule to allow the anti-crusher to exist; that rule being that it had to have moving weaponry on it. That's why Team Tornado couldn't use their anti-spinner against Hypno-Disc, or their anti-axe against Dominator 2 or Terrorhurtz, because neither device had moving weaponry on it. But why did it matter whether the devices had any kind of weaponry or not? It made no difference to the fact they were all designed to render the attack methods of specific robots useless because Team Tornado wanted cheap, improper victories. Therefore, for the sake of consistency at least, ALL of the devices should've been allowed, or none of them should've been allowed. Secondly, and speaking of stupid rules, Razer shouldn't have had to detach from Tornado when immobilising it over the pit when it was obvious the latter couldn't escape from that dead spot whether held there or not. Probophobia didn't have to withdraw when it pitted Snake Bite; Razer shouldn't have had to withdraw from Tornado. And don't try saying that Tornado was put in a different place that escaped from later when that doesn't matter. The pit means INSTANT elimination and always has. Tornado should've lost right there alone, regardless of who did more in battle prior. And thirdly, the idea of Robot Wars was so that you win with your initial design without any drastic changes to it. Yes, there's interchangeable weaponry, but what Team Tornado did was morally excessive for the competition, to the point it was practically a different robot. And I don't care how other shows would deal with such matters when that's their own business. Team Tornado didn't want to actually work on outdriving Razer to outscore it, so they exploited flawed rules to steal a victory and Championship they didn't deserve. That's cowardice and nothing more.
The Robot Wars equivalent of "The Mountain and the Viper" (Game of Thrones) one sided, right til the end, then a fairly anti-climactic shock nearly happens.
They said it in the video, it wasn't over the maximum. The Pit being smaller than the maximum dimensions, is rather stupid though, and they should've considered it.
Watching it again all these years later, I do still think Razer had Tornado 'in' the pit, ie Tornado couldn't drive away so was technically in. So for me, Razer should have given the victory. At the time I did think it was cheating, but looking back (And obviously still remembering what was to come) all through the series the Tornado team were talking about their different configurations for different types of robots, so I do believe this was something they had hidden just for Razer, and probably came up with the idea of the interchangeable weapon bay after Extreme 1 when Razer trashed it and was basically robot Tornado was vulnerable to. The conversation is easy to image: We want to keep the disc which is very destructive, but we need a defense against Razer. Well the rules allow for different weapons, we just have to declare them at the start and always be under the 100kg limit. Ok, lets have something for Rzaer, and the disc, anything else? How about a really meaty bulldozer blade that can absorb heavy hits, and because a wedge is useful as well. To me, it's very, very clever interpretation of the rules that existed, so within the letter of rules, if not in the spirit of the rules. But as Andrew Marchant says; they're there to win, and in any sport where you design to a set of rules and regs, the way to get a decisive advantage is to make clever interpretations of them. But even after all this time, my heart still belongs to Firestorm. Always the Bronze medal and always difficult to beat and sad we never got to see it get it's moment.
Tornado clearly won that fight. It was possible for them to be pitted if Razer pushed them in diagonally, they would have fallen in. I do see why people were (and still are) mad about this. That cage was kinda iffy with the rules, but at least Tornado didn't just have the cage with no weapon.
Razer's tatic of biting and not letting the oppentant go bit them when it mattered the most. Had they let Tornado go once they had them over the pit, they would have won.
I can't believe they got away with that frame. Surely they exceeded the 100kg weight limit with it, didn't they?! They were already just below the limit when they had the plow on.
that plough was basically just a solid chunk of metal, the metal struts aren't actually that heavy, most of the added weight would be in that spinning disc, the base weight of the robot isn't actually that high
If there would have been crushers or choppers or hammers or screws around the arena...the Raven bird-like robot would have been Killed Outright!! Good Call....
Tornado took way more damage, and the frame being "to support that spinner" was complete BS, at the front sure, but the back and sides was just to stop Razer from getting in at them. Like I kinda get that being within the rules, but the amount of damage delt, mostly by themselves, to that extra frame should have lost them the fight
in the arena for the house robots, Shunt with the bulldozer blade. in the arena for the house robots, MR PSYCHO! LOL. Johnathon pierce said in the arena for the house robots twice
The only reason I support Tornado as the champ is because Razer never let go. The anti crasher device was genius in my opinion, and I question why people call it an anti pit device.
yea , the pit simply needed to be bigger actually then their would not have bin any fuss Tornado would have had he's defence up vs Razer but woud have still lost in the end
Cue the Imperial March as the Razer lovers come from the north and the Tornado lovers come from the south. Joking over, as much as I hated seeing Razer lose its title and prefer it over Tornado any day, I must say the claims of Tornado cheating are getting old. The frame was allowed.
I'm actually not going to release the Series 6 battles video until the Ultimate Countdown is done. The fights have slightly different criteria for placings on each list, but I wouldn't want to give anything away at all.
As always Razer are given every advantage possible, with the house robots acting stupid and doing nothing to them whenever they got pushed into the CPZ. And they still lost. They were told well ahead of time about the attachments and I think they couldn’t believe someone had nullified their weapon. So they went in to try to use it anyway, to no avail. Had they really thought it through, they would have known the only strategy was to activate the pit early, push Tornado in, and wait for the countdown. Simple as that. They were completely outsmarted.
Essentially it comes down to rule interpretation, Battlebots is currently experiencing a similar issue with EXACTLY how far you can take battle to battle modifications and now they have a lot of 'judges discretion' based laws. Interchangeable weapons have been in the show from the start and they break no rules as it were. You can argue if it's in the spirit of the rules but as a concept it's no different from attaching extra armour to fight Carbide. Almost every robot these days has configurations that involve defending attacks from spinners. My personal view is adapting a robot to that extent to defend against one singular opponent that happens to have an advantage in the ever developing rock paper scissors nature of robot combat is outside the spirit of the show, apparently they had a similar setup for fighting Hypno Disc that the judges deemed a defensive addition and was therefore barred. Having said that it's certainly not cheating and I do admit there is a significant issue in where the line of acceptable modifications should be drawn. Why shouldn't a team push the rules to their very limits?
@AdrianYoungs81 if they could still fit in the pit it would be fine but making yourself bigger then the pit was normally against the rules and they had to get permission from the judges which is favoritism and just plain not fair
@AdrianYoungs81 definite cheating you mean? They practically reinvented their robot to take razer on. Tornado has no weapons at all and is too big to even be put in the pit. Completely unfair advantage
@AdrianYoungs81 what tornado had was a massive unfair advantage. Couldn't even fit into the pit. Razor clear fan favourite and almost unstoppable - seems to be show writers creating a challenge
Everyone bitching about Tornado they got approval for the frame from the judges they always had modular weaponry before the battle started im prefer Razer but all is fair in love and robot wars
Most Razer fans hate the battle and believe that Tornado cheated, but Tornado legally won the fight First, I want to say i'm neither a Razer or Tornado fan. My favourite robots are robots like Hypno Disk and Chaos 2, and I prefer Razer to Tornado. With this disclaimer out the way, there was 3 reason why Tornado legally won the fight First reason is that the spinner "cage" was not an anti pit device. While it was undeniably an Anti Razer weapon (they even had an Anti Hypno Disk weapon that was banned after the Hypno Disk team raised a complaint about it) it wasn't designed to keep Tornado out the pit. The cage was in the guidelines and was approved by the judges (which is brought up before the fight) Second, it's not illegal to have a robot that is too big for the pit. Look at robots like Black Widow in Series 5 or Anarchy in this Series. Do you think those robots would have been able to fit down the pit with the size of them? Finally, the reason Tornado was not considered immobile, despite all 4 wheels being over the pit is because of the pinning rule. This rule prevents any form of immobilisation if a robot is in an immobile position and is being held there by another robot. It's why the Razer team have a stopwatch, to count how long they have got hold of a robot. This includes pittings. Case and point, Wild Thing vs Chaos 2 in Series 5. Wild Thing had Chaos 2 in the pit, but because the flipper of Chaos 2 was being held over the lip of the pit by Wild Thing, but because of the pinning rule, Chaos 2 wasn't classed as pitted. If Wild Thing had released the grip it had on Chaos 2, then Chaos 2 would have been counted as pitted. This same rule is why Tornado wasn't classed as pitted against Razer. Razer's crusher was keeping Tornado in the fight, and had they let go, then Tornado would have been classed as pitted. I'll also like to point out that if it wasn't for the Anti Razer cage it would have been a boring fight. Razer was probably the best designed robot in the original run and the design made it near unbeatable. Robots like Bigger Brother, Dantomkia, Firestorm and Chaos 2 were all beaten with ease by Razer. Tornado had fought Razer a few times and got beaten easily by them, so they had to adapt to Razer, and their adaption reaped it's reward.
This is the only time where people had a problem with a robot modifying itself to better suit a fight, razor was great but incredibly boring to watch. Tornado did what was within the rules, nothing wrong with that, well deserved 👏
The final fight was completely rigged against Razor. That ridiculous 'weapon' not only stopped their own weapon but also prevented them from being put in the pit or even being reached by the house robots. They had no win condition. Such a farce it was, I still believe to this day that this finale killed Robot Wars.
no matter how many times i've watched this, it still pisses me off that Tornado fricking cheated to win the title. i found out on the RW wiki that the judges made a blundering error but the decision still stood. bollocks to that! at least they should've done a rematch but with Tornado removing that fucking bar frame. i respect Tornado for what it's worth but that frame made me lose some respect AND the fact they did this EVERY time they fought Razer, angers me even more. I would say this and the fight between Storm 2 and Typhon 2 are the worst fights for me because of stupid decision making and in the case of tornado, cheating.
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So, a couple things:
UK vs. Germany will not conclude the Series 6 uploads just yet. I'm also going to replace Heat's I and J. These were the two Heats with notable sound problems, and Toast is kindly providing his copies of these episodes, too.
I also want to know what you guys would like uploaded next out of Extreme 2 or Series 2. I'm planning the latter, but if there's a massive opinion for Extreme 2, I'll do that instead.
I suppose Extreme 2 will sound interesting. I mean, I still have yet to see how far Robochicken went in the Tag Team Terror alongside Bulldog Breed.
I'd like to see Series 2 just for Piece De Resistance unable to dislodge bricks.......................IN HD!!
Love to see series 2 in HD as one of the episodes already uploaded years ago has part of the sound being cut out in the first part.
Series 2 for obvious reasons ;)
NJGW Definitely Extreme 2, please!
Can we all just appreciate a young(ish) John Reid and his plethora of Good Hits?
It's weird how he literally hasn't changed in all these years 😂
He isn’t waiting for a good hit though, out of character much?
Super controversial final, I actually think that if Razer moved away and left Tornado suspended above the pit, it would’ve proved that Tornado were in/above the pit and unable to drive away, then Razer definitely would’ve won the final
36:54 is proof that Tornado couldn't have escaped its dead spot over the pit whether Razer was holding it there or not. Sure, its front-right wheel guard is up on the edge of the pit, but not to where the front-right wheel itself can gain traction to climb away. Just like Probophobia didn't need to withdraw its weapon from Snake Bite when it pitted the latter in Extreme Warriors Season 2, neither should Razer have had to do so with Tornado when it immobilised the latter over the pit. It should've been a win for Razer right there.
Yes I agree with benspurs but - Razer couldn't let go of Tornado at that point, and when the clock stopped Razer had backed off and was holding Tornado part way over the pit. And lifting another robot off the ground I don't think ever counted as 'immobilising' them. If you freeze frame at the moment the clock stopped at 37:07, IF Razer had been able to let go at that moment, Tornado would have fallen into the pit (so much for being 'impossible to pit). But Razer couldn't let go.
@@ryanodonovan9497 Still crying like a little bitch 19 years later, huh? 🤣🤣🤣
Tornado was technically imboalized by being hung over the pit this was a farce
@@wolfielps4411they weren't immobilised. Razer still had a hold of them. Same logic, razer were immobilised on the side
This is a fantastic grad final and razer lifting tornado at the end was some of the best drama in any robot wars fight. But I don’t understand why tornado was allowed to add an extension that prevented them from going into the pit surely that should have been a rule
There was not, and Tornado actually gained the approval.
It was a rule but by this point they were pulling stunts like this to cause controversy, the fact is they are over the pit and couldn't drive away so they WERE IN the pit ffs. It got stupid by this point for producers getting involved and causing some of the most pathetic stunts and it ruined the show. Storm 2 Vs Typhoon 2 was probably the final straw for a lot of them, Storm 2 vs Supernova was just the icing on the cake for it.
TheRebel if razed pushes tornado into the pit with 30-45 seconds left the. They would’ve had no choice but to give it to razer
@@therebel4332 i just think that the point was that there was so little time left that razer haven't left tornado in the pit alone and by moving back it could have set tornado free
Yeah not being able to fall in the pit but even still they could immobilize them over it.the only argue tornado has is it dominated the push and pull war and looked to have been beaten too late to not win a decision. Uktjmiatel I wouldn't let them use a modification as ridiculous as that
I hate that this final fight still makes me mad so many years later! :P
Why?
Nearly 20 years on, and Tornado's modification is still bullshit
Same
@@digitaldeathsquid3448 also, the fact that the fight ended with tornado at least as, if not *more* disabled, than any robot's that don't have bullshit frame weldings on when they get pitted.
Razer pitted them at the end, and despite their frame meaning they didn't fit, then were still completely disabled by the pit trap, which normally results in an instant win.
41:05
All things aside I think this is the best grand final of RW to date. The drama and everything in it is just electric.
Razer still won
@@Frosty_tha_Snowmanwhy dont you get angry about something actually important like Biden's stealing of the election?
For me, this is easily top 3. Can't decide between this, season 5 and season 4. All had their fair share of incredible moments. Probably would go for series 5 just based on percentage of great battles with 3 out of 4 being absolute classics compared to only two in this being noteworthy and the same with season 4 but all 3 are incredible and are easily in my top 5 episodes of robot wars ever
I don’t know how many years it’s been but this still angers me to this day
41:05
Tornado didn't go into the pit but was suspended, and Tornado was in full control the entire time once it broke Razor's claw. Razor could only hang on, but rarely got any actual damage in or resist most of Tornado's advances.
IMO, Tornado was in control the entire time and won that match fair and square.
@@EVAUnit4A "fair" using bull shit frame to not fit in the pit. Still disabled. And dude its frame was bent to shit. Tornado got lucky razor got stuck.
@@warcraftlake7 Still crying like a little bitch 19 years later, huh? 🤣🤣🤣
Tornado are the last real champion of the classic era. All hail TORNADO!!!
38:16 "Inspect robots for dmg"
Tornado: Extra Shielding frame really bent, main weapon doesn't work, got put over the pit and couldn't get out, so therefor he was in the pit.
Razer: A lot of scratchs, all 4 wheels still turn, hydrolique weapon still fully fonctionnal, only minor bent on the added hook part.
The public: Razer
The Judge: Yep, Tornado is our winner.
The Public: Bruh
What annoys me most is that Tornado has always played the victim card before and after this. Complaining that judges and producers were biased against them.
Yea, there's bias alright, they let you get away with that frame bullshit
Tornado won it on aggression, control and style. Damage was close.
@@tdyerwestfield Yeah, omg that control they had when they got stuck over the pit. Surely stylish as well.
@@grandmasterfarmer4792 Very stylish I'd say.
@@grandmasterfarmer4792 That was near the end, to be fair. If they had another minute or two, they could've immobilised them.
People complain about the frame a lot, but honestly, it would've been their undoing if Razer managed to do whatever it was they did near the end again, and get them properly stuck in there. The frame would've done Tornado in, ironically.
Was a good fight eitherway.
Yes, I am aware I am responding to a 2 year old comment. Hello, stranger from the past!
That final was an amazing fight, despite the pit controversy, that fight was good as both robots were slamming and having a good go at each other. And the house robots getting their teeth into both robots and not treating razer as daily as before. There series finals and semi finals always are a highlight of robot wars / combat in general.
2 old kings fell foul in the heats, Chaos 2 and Panic Attack. From Joe. X
Tornado did not cheat. It's not true. It's boolsheet, it did not cheat. IT DID NAHT! Oh hai Razer.
I see you're also a man of culture. Is your name Mark by any chance?
Headbanger142 a
Robot Wars meets The Room. Didn't know I needed that in my life 😂
now uve just made me imagine what it would be like if tommy wiseau entered robot wars
You are tearing me apart Razer!
Although Firestorm 4 and Terrorhurtz finished 3rd and 4th respectively, they would be seeded 2nd and 3rd for Series 7 due to Razer not returning. (Terrorhurtz would be disqualified however for arriving in an unfinished state though.)
Terrorhurtz was unable to fight in series 7 when they failed to arrive in time to take part. From Joe. X
the perfect thumbnail
25:00 "That's gonna be moving at Christmas in the year 2050, that axe."
Hearing that made me feel a little bad that that axe shaft only made it to 2017 before being SIA during the World Series, against Terrorhurtz itself no less.
in a way, it's nice to see how far they came over time by breaking their own older axe
SIA?
@@amichiganboiwhosereallazy1544 Snapped in Action
This solidified my hatred for tornado.. Complete cowards
I'm not a huge fan of Razer either, but I really hate Tornado. They don't do anything. My dislike of them started when they got super cocky about fighting Wheely Big Cheese in Series 4 - seeing them beaten by Díotóir in Series 5 made me very happy.
Pure cheating bolting things on..
Just imagine if everyone did this stunt , 🙄🙄should have been not allowed
41:05
@@I.aTuckingFypo.l 41:05
This was a bastard move, perhaps, but really clever, and legal. The direct bounds of the pit (200cm x 140cm - Tornado's anti-Razer device was 194cm x 135cm), but that doesn't make it irrelevant. Robots like The Morgue and Major Tom could both fit over the pit, but could still be pitted if placed at the right angle, same with Tornado, and weren't counted as out based solely on the grounds that they couldn't fit over the pit, but because they were, feasibly, immobilised. Had Tornado been deposited diagonally, they would've definitely been pitted in some manner (look at 36:59 - they WERE trying), and therefore, legally out. They still have to be put in the pit, and could definitely still fall victim to it theoretically even in normal circumstances (if Razer pressed the pit button as Tornado drives over it - didn't happen in the fight, but feasible).
The fact that Tornado was completely over the pit at 36:54 is irrelevant, as Razer immediately moved them back out of it, thus preventing a proper elimination from being called. It'd be no different to if Sir Killalot held Tornado over it, or if Razer had held regular Tornado over it before backing away. Of course, robots like Probophobia didn't have to withdraw its weapon from Snake Bite, but that's a different show for a different country, and beyond that, the chance that Snake Bite could get out of a put that had been activated were null and void, they were literally at the bottom of it. Razer had difficulty raising its crusher at the end, sure, but that wasn't down to Tornado's device, that was down to the lifting spike on Razer's beak - WILLINGLY ADDED BY TEAM RAZER. The inability to leave at the end of it was down to their own weapon being faulty - and that's not grounds to disqualify Tornado over.
There are no grounds to highlight that the weapon was illegal, beyond that. It wasn't just defensive; Razer got hit several times by the blade, with notable impacts. It was flimsy, perhaps, but again, that isn't a problem except for the robot itself. It's not as though the judges turned a blind eye to Tornado's weapon system, either; the team did make an anti-Spinner and anti-Axe device, but those were ruled illegal by the judges after the teams of Hypno-Disc and Dominator 2 filed a complaint, as they were literally just defensive weapons, and as such, illegal (which really should've disqualified Storm 2 in the S7 Semis, but 🤷♀, I'm defending Mentorn here, but at times they definitely had weird rulings). Hell, even Team Razer themselves praised it as ingenious, they accepted defeat much better than half of this comment section today. The real controversy is that Tornado was ruled the winner the first time this device was used in Extreme Warriors 2, not here.
As a razer fan I can definitely accept this verdict. Also agree with your point on extreme warriors. For me that is the better fight so I would have preferred that as the final. Don't get me wrong that this fight is incredible with all the drama but I personally prefer the exw as an overall fight, even if I disagree with that result more than anyone should with this
*Eats popcorn and waits for comment section to erupt with Tornado and Razer fans arguing again......
...am I the only one that isn't a huge fan of either of them?
Tornado had no fans they were hated
@@Raveneffect1989I liked them when I was younger but when I heard what they did I just didn’t
@@Raveneffect1989 Still crying like a little bitch 19 years later, huh? 🤣🤣🤣
Thanks for the series upload, great quality.
Razer FINISHED tornado at the end. If you Fit a Massive Scaffolding, bigger than the Pit, onto your robot, and then get pitted, only not to get Pitted, while already skirting with the rules, with late additions...
The Judges REALLY let themselves down by NOT aknowledging that Razor Pitted him at the end.
Tornado are UNWORTHY of the Number 1 Seed in my book.
That attack at 32:38 gives you some idea of what Hynodisc might have done to Razer if they ever met in battle....that impact spun razer round with quite some force. No doubt hyno disc would have hit a lot harder as well..... If hypno disc was quick, I think all it would need is one imact to one of razers wheels and it would be game over for Razer...but dont know if hypnodisc's weapon sits low enough to hit the wheels.... Man I would LOVE to see that fight... but I think Hynodisc would win....... It is also interesting how pussycat took out hypno disc and razer in exactly the same way... by chopping up the wheels
Hypno Disc not winning series 5 was gutting. One fluke from Bigger Brother , 2 seconds of loss of concentration cost them the title. As I truly believe they would have beaten Razor in the final.
It's why the Razer team always asked the production team to keep their precious away from spinners, because it would get fucked up. Pussycat was the one time they went up against a decent bot with a blade in competition, and it got fucked angry.🤣
Wheely Big Cheese was longer than the pit, but within the maximum allowed length. Nobody complained.
S3 was wider than the pit, but within the maximum allowed width. Nobody complained.
Tornado did both, but was within the maximum allowed for both. Thousands threw their toys out of the pram.
I think the big difference here is that, S3 and wheel big cheese still fit within the pit, tornado didn't. Obviously not their fault, they just exploited the rules, but still shitty
@@monkeyatanofficedesk9253Then what about robots like black widow and eleven who were significantly larger than those machines? Wheely big cheese went into the pit in series 4 but wasn't deemed to be out
@tombardsley3081 They were walkers no? That's why they were so big, I don't agree with walkers being allowed to be that big either
@@monkeyatanofficedesk9253 yet there wasn’t any outrage over them being larger than the pit. This is the point I’m making. It was only a problem when it was tornado and the fact that Razer couldn’t let them go.
@tombardsley3081 Tornado wasn't a walker tho, it wasn't bigger because it needed to be (although I don't personally think walkers needed the extra weight and size) it was like that specifically to not fit in the pit, which is scummy
Controversy aside, that Grand Final between Razer and Tornado was insane.
They met in the USA/UK episode in robot wars extreme warriors series 2, and Tornado won on a judges' vote! From Joe. X
I Was Shocked when Tornado Won
But he deserved it. From Joe. X
the tornado vs razer fight has to be the most contreversioal and devisive fight in robot wars history.
Wow Firestorm IV v Tornado is a way better fight than I remembered
A great fight between Tornado and Firestorm, a good battle of the elements.
Tornado edged the fight. From Joe. X
If Razer had managed to get Tornado in the position it was in at the end with even a little bit of time on the clock, I think they'd rightly be considered the winners as Tornado would be unable to move. As it was otherwise, Tornado won on almost every category.
He used the frame twice against razer and won both times tornado did. From Joe. X
35:59 Its very satisfying to see the "lightweight" shunt lifting up one of the deadliest competitor robots like it is a piece of junk... and same for dead metal at 35:32.... you can almost feel the anxiety of the razer team desperate to get razer away from dead metal....
Tornado was the champion. From Joe. X
Looking back at it as an adult. I really appreciate the design of razer and technically they won. It's a fantastic robot. But tornado was amazing kit as well just not as good as razer in my view. But as a kid I was a tornado fan.
You a member of their family? As no one liked Tornado!
@@Raveneffect1989 Still crying like a little bitch 19 years later, huh? 🤣🤣🤣
36:14 man, gotta love that 90's watch!
Not a Razer fan just wanted to say the Maltesers box on wheels cheated
Technically speaking Tornado didn't cheat, as what it did was within the rules. But the rules were part of the problem with how inconsistent they were.
Best description of tornado ever!
Not entirely true. They were told they weren't allowed specific defence modifications between fights after their fight with Hypnodisc, and there's no way you can claim that cage is not defence-orientated.
Slug 2000 cobblers!!
Is it just me that thinks Team Tornado were clever in planning a weapon purely for Razer at the very beginning of the wars? The judges were clearly aware of the design long before the final, as they approved it. I think the rules about a robot not being larger than the pit were introduced in the following series, but series 7 is where the bad judge's decisions started to come into play where the producers were deciding who to go through purely based on the popularity of the robot rather than the winner of the battle.
I think the issue many have is the fact that the weapon, in this case, wasn't actually just "changed out" but WELDED to the chassis of the bot....which is a permanent modification. Technically, against the rules....but overlooked by production for the "excitement" factor.
@@RidleeFox sometimes you can admire clever cheats of the system. I'm not sure how it was pre-approved prior to the series, they must have lied about the interchangeableness of it.
@@tdyerwestfield Those who manage to utilise and loophole through the rules in the spirit of the game, I can get behind. If the cage/weapon had been something that attached via the same attachment point as all the previous ones and sat around the bot.....that would have been fine and, I suspect, this is likely what was presented in the pre-approved set of interchangable weapons (a cage attached to a spinning blade which "clunked" into the front weapon mount).
But....welding it onto the chassis....that was a clear violation of the rules at the time which stated you couldn't make permanent modifications to your bot during the course of the competition to give yourself and "edge" against specific opponents. I remember reading through entry packs back then as myself and a group were considering entering.
What a battle between Razer and Tornado with the latter winning on a judges decision.
Tornado deserved the 6th wars. From Joe. X
I remember this final fight more than any other from Robot Wars which I loved so much. It was controversial, and as much as I wanted Razer to win, I felt Tornado deserved it because of pure ingenuity and well-thought out strategy to have an "anti-Razer" weapon (lets face it, its all about the frame, not the spinning 'weapon' which wasn't very good, it was designed to keep Razer out to push them round with Tornado's 4WD, very clever). Despite my conflict.... this is the one fight I would say, due to how it ends, that should have been called a draw (controversial in itself) as Tornado WOULD have effectively been immobilised OVER the pit due to where Razer left them right at the death. I loved this show at it's peak so much because it gave us stories like this to remember.
This is it the moment we been waiting for who is going to be robot wars champions
The first fact is that Razer in any other scenario should have won - because Tornado were directly over the pit and could not have gotten out.
The problem is that TECHNICALLY Tornado didn't go IN the pit so you could TECHNICALLY argue that they were still in the game. If you agree with that, then the battle was a simple judges decision, and I will concede that based purely on the fight before that pitting, Tornado dominated Razer. This makes me think that Tornado were DESERVING of a win in this battle, but I do still think that Razer actually won. It's a lot closer in my head now that I have rewatched the battle again, but still I think Razer won.
In a fight that ends in a pitting, it doesn't matter who was in the lead or who deserved it more - it matters who is in the pit - just think Hypno-Disc vs Bigger Brother. Bigger Brother's shell was in tatters and the flipper had been disintegrated, but due to incredible build quality and some excellent driving, they managed to pit Hypno-Disc. Tornado was over the pit, and if Razer had had another couple of seconds to get away, Tornado would have been left suspended above the pit. Even if it didn't count as a pitting, it would have counted as an immobilisation. Robots who have gotten stuck on their own body work have been counted out in the past.
I will accept that the frame was of a legal size within the rules - an oversight by the producers, and that saying that Tornado were bad sports is both irrelevant because it was 19 years ago and also because sportsmanship doesn't count in the arena. That being said, imo they shouldn't have been given the victory because they were technically immobilised. Also, while winning IS the point, Tornado's attitude towards the victory still leaves a bad taste in my mouth, because it feels in complete contrast to the sportsmanship and graciousness we usually saw on Robot Wars. Tornado did show themselves to be helpful in the pits - donating parts and helping to rebuild Wild Thing - but exploiting loopholes to win when they were already in with a fair shot, and then being smug about it? It just feels a bit gross and cheap to me.
Agree with all of this except the immobile part. Razer was still holding on to tornado so there’s no guarantee that tornado were immobile. Razer were technically immobilised earlier in the fight but the ref bot helped them out .
I think the fact that parts of the frame were below the arena floor level and inside the pit should have been taken into account.....but Razor were still "holding" them. As you say, Razor needed to back up/let go.
The damage Tornado had suffered was actually extremely heavy and should have counted against them a lot more. Their weapon wasn't functional.....that should have been a HUGE points deduction in terms of judging between the two bots. As in, Razor = fully functional, Tornado = Weapon inoperable. Agression can be called for both, really, since both were agressive (Razor kept going in on the attack just as much as Tornado). Style....there wasn't any style. Control, both bots displayed great control but, in the end, Razor won out because they took control of Tornado and put them on top of the pit.
I know that, behind the scenes, the Razor lads weren't happy that Tornado was allowed to get away with welding the frame onto the chassis in order to "toughen" it when their "Interchangable weapon" was supposeed to just have that front contact area that it was locked into....I think that's why they were told "ok, you can modify Razor to counter it....but with only a short amount of time, they could only make that small extender for the "beak".
I love the little hops that Terrorhurtz does sometimes! Also, 30:50 Those mini house robots that he has in the background... I need them
You mean the pullbacks? There should be a few on sale online at least, as well as the other lot of them, three of which were in this grand final.
@@robertwalpole5376I had loads as a kid and no doubt threw them away at some point thinking they were worthless 😭
Dang it, Firestorm! Why did you flip Tornado back over? If you left them upside down you coulda beaten them! No hate on Tornado from me but… they made an error there.
the final fight was total bs. yeah we just added a massive frame so we auto win lol.
Firestorm is a great robot
From the look of it if Razor could come in from the side I think they may have just had enough reach to puncture the wheels of tornado.
Those 2 were hated rivals!. From Joe. X
I feel that Tornado cheated by putting that modification in to stop them from falling into the Pit.
They should have been Disqualified afterwards.
It’s not really fair that tornado can get away with that because it’s impossible for them to go down the pit
It was "within" the rules but I'm sorry I'd have laughed at them if they came to get approval for that monstrosity, if only because it can't be pitted with it on and therefor breaks the rules. Not "bending" them it was straight up cheating on Tornados part and I'm a fan of the robot.
41:05 genius idea
@@therebel4332 razer were told in advance what tornado were going to do and had plenty of warning to come up with their own solution, they chose some crappy little claw and didn't release tornado into the pit, just suspended them above it
all was in the rules
Razor should of taken them to the side wall and put them over that way
Terrorhurtz was amazing this series
Only unseeded machine in the 6th wars grand final. From Joe. X
Can anyone else imagine these fighting in a 4 bot rumble the winner would probably be Firestorm.
He won the Commonwealth Carnage in extreme 2 Firestorm 4 did. From Joe. X
Commentator have amazing voice.
They say the Tornado frame was an ‘Anti-Pitting Device’ yet couldn’t it of still fitted diagonally?
Yes, but it would’ve needed to be raised completely vertical to slot down inside, with the anti-crusher lined up with diagonally opposing corners of the pit. And Razer couldn’t possibly have raised Tornado that high.
@@ryanodonovan9497fair enough
Admin they are hacking!
They should get a bigger pit of oblivion so that Tornado anti-crusher web can fit into the hole.
Is it wrong that i like both Razer and Tornado?
Nope. Two fantastic robots.
Not at all both were excellent robots in spite of the controversial ending.
No. Just as it isn't wrong that I dislike them both.
does anyone else think this rule was made on the fly ?? i mean it makes me wonder why no one built a frame around their robot to protect it.
What a great season n what a terrible final! If this wasnt CHEATING then what is? Terrible judgement by judges. Horrible ending.
Funny thing is, even with that cheating fence, razer put these losers in the pit but thanks to judges, they werent in the pit cuz their body size was larger than the pit.
Robot wars producers really disgraced themselves by allowing this disaster happened.
The reason Tornado wasn't counted as pitted was because Razer couldn't detach itself and back away, not because Tornado couldn't fit inside. But that's still stupid. I get that you can't just immobilise your opponent by pinning them as you need to be sure that they can't recover when not being touched, but this was the pit Razer had Tornado immobile over, which means INSTANT ELIMINATION. And you can see by this video's thumbnail alone that Tornado couldn't possibly have escaped its dead spot whether Razer was grappled on or not. Just like Probophobia didn't have to withdraw its weapon from Snake Bite when it pitted the latter in Extreme Warriors 2, Razer shouldn't have had to do so with Tornado when it immobilised the latter over the pit.
@@ryanodonovan9497 razor was trying to put him "in" the pit. He could detach.
@@warcraftlake7 It shouldn't have had to once it got Tornado into that immobile predicament over the pit, though, based on the logic I've already explained above. And it's Razer, not Razor. It can't even be a typo when the E and O keys have five other keys between them.
The fence wasn't cheating, as it was legal. Don't hate the player, hate the game. I do agree though, it was stupid that the Pit was smaller than the actual maximum width of an entered bot. I don't get how they allowed that to be a possibility.
Besides, you want to complain about the fence? If it went on a bit longer, whatever Razer actually managed to do, to get a hold of them, I reckon they could've actually taken the win, had there been more time. The same fence that they devised solely to counter Razer's beak, could very well have ended in their defeat, if they did get themselves suspended and stuck above the Pit!
I am aware this is two years old, by the way. Hello, stranger from the past!
Tornado’s Anti-Pit Device is Robot Wars’ Fosbury Flop moment 😂
Well, Terrorhurtz was really ill-matched against Razer - once Razer got its grip it was virtually impossible to hit.
And here's JP *still* pratting on about Tornado's "unreliable drive train". (Or are they just replaying the same intro over and over again). When was the last time Tornado's drive broke down? And what the hell is Shunt doing? Tornado pushes Firestorm into the CPZ and Shunt axes Tornado. I thought it was the robot that was pushed in that was a legit target for attack? But then Firestorm pushes Tornado into the CPZ and Shunt axes Firestorm, so I dunno. But ignoring that, it was a thrilling pushing duel between two very quick and nimble robots - Tornado had slightly the upper hand but it could have gone either way.
Terrorhurtz vs Firestorm - that was another frantic duel until Terrorhurtz's drive failed. But its axe did some spectacular damage to Firestorm in the short period that they were actively fighting. Very formidable. Firestorm come third again. But they're always a pleasure to watch.
The final was actually a good battle. Tornado now has a weapon that can reach Razer and Razer have a lifting hook specially designed to catch Tornado. Well that was all Tornado on points. If Razer had managed to suspend Tornado over the pit at the last moment they would have snatched victory but they couldn't quite make it. Still, credit to the Razer team and Ian Lewis for accepting defeat gracefully.
And - has to be said - I have a lot more respect for the Razer team than some of their whiny sour-grapes fans in the comments section. No Tornado did not cheat by fitting an anti-Razer frame. All through the Wars bots have added extra bits of armour or changed weapons to fight a particular opponent. Razer added the hook to their beak specifically to hook on to Tornado's frame - that wasn't cheating was it? And Tornado's frame was anti-Razer, not anti-pit (that was just some bullshit of blabbermouth JP's invention. *Any* bot that was the maximum legal size wouldn't have fitted down the pit any easier). If Razer had been able to let go of Tornado at the moment the clock ran out, Tornado would have fallen into the pit - freeze the vid at 37:07. But Razer couldn't let go so Tornado didn't fall in. As to whether they were actually 'immobilised' over the pit - and whether that should have won at the last minute for Razer - that's for the judges to decide and not something either side could 'cheat' about.
Razer got terrorhurtz. From Joe. X
@@joeandrews7329 Yes indeed, and once Razer got the deathgrip on Terrorhurtz there was nothing Thz could do.
How anyone can agree with Tornado's actions is beyond me. Here's what they always come out with...
_"What Tornado did was innovative and it outsmarted Razer. And Tornado's style is interchangeable weaponry."_
That's no excuse. There's a big difference between interchangeable weaponry and modifying your robot to render a specific opponent's attack methods useless. The latter's definitely the case with Tornado. And I know Razer did luckily manage to rip out Tornado's weapon motor in their previous encounter when it wasn't adapted at all to face the anti-crusher, but again, that's no excuse. The device was designed to give Razer no chance of reaching Tornado's chassis whatsoever. Its purpose and motives alone were so immoral that if it was up to me, I would've told the Tornado team not to use it or be disqualified from the competition. How can the Tornado team's actions be looked at as innovative or outsmarting even if it's technically true? They did nothing but rely on the anti-crusher to do all the work for them so they could easily steal a championship they didn't deserve. Some guy (whose name I won't mention) once said to me that by my logic Cassius was wrong to use its srimech, which I think is very insulting to Rex Garrod. Cassius' srimech WAS NOT like Tornado's anti-crusher. It was something to prevent instant elimination from getting turned over. It could spring back into action, but the opponent could still pit Cassius, immobilise it another way, or outdo it on point scoring for a judges' decision. Plus, the srimech was meant for use against ALL opponents. It wasn't something designed to render a specific opponent's attack methods useless. You want to know an example of adapting for weapons the proper way? The legalisation of entanglement weapons in Series 10. They were something to give spinners more of a challenge considering how dominant those weapons had become, but it didn't render them useless. It wasn't something set up to fuck Carbide over. I get that such individually specific devices are commonplace now, which at least means more consistency within the rules and better treatment for everyone, even though I still don't agree with the concept. But here wasn't the appropriate place for it, as I'll explain further in the next paragraph.
_"Tornado didn't cheat - what they did was within the rules."_
The rules were part of the problem! Rules aren't always right, and in this case they were an inconsistent mess that allowed for Tornado to get away with their cheap and dirty tactics. Firstly, the officials saw how unfairly protective Tornado's anti-spinner was when it was meant for use against Hypno-Disc, and they banned it. Granted, it took the latter team to make an official complaint to get the judges to wake up, but the rule was still enforced. Yet they wouldn't do the same for the anti-crusher because the latter had a moving weapon on it. Why? So what if there are moving weapons on it? It's still a device designed for an unfair amount of protection from a specific opponent, therefore the anti-crusher should've been banned too. Secondly, what was the point of the pit being in the arena if robots were allowed to be big enough to prevent going in? Sure you could still be classed as being immobile over the pit (which I'll get back to), but the latter's just something to fall back on (no pun intended) in case for some unforeseen reason a robot won't go in, like with The Morgue in Series 4. The pit's designed for robots to be dumped down INTO it, not to be delicately placed on top. The latter's what the grilles in Series 1 were for. And thirdly, Razer DID have Tornado immobilised over the pit! But it didn't count because Razer's claw was still hooked into the frame and couldn't let go. Again, why? I understand the rule of not immobilising your opponent just by pinning them in place, as that'd be too easy and you can't always tell if the victim can escape by itself or not. But in Tornado's predicament, it was in a dead spot that it couldn't possibly escape from by itself whether Razer was still holding on or not. It's perfectly clear from this video's thumbnail alone. So that should've been a loss for Tornado right there. I am also aware Tornado could've been properly pitted even with the anti-crusher on, if it was raised completely vertical with either the front or back end of the frame going across the pit and slotting down inside. But let's face it, Razer couldn't possibly have done that without overbalancing and falling in itself.
_"But if Tornado didn't adapt itself, the fight would've just been boringly one-sided with Razer predictably winning."_
Once again, that's no excuse. Roboteering isn't a movie, people. It's competition in REAL LIFE. You go in there to earn victory fairly and properly. And if something entertaining happens during the action, wonderful. It's always great when that happens. But if it doesn't, tough. You can't just force entertainment out of it. It happens naturally, if at all. In any case, competition is the main priority, not entertainment (regardless of whatever producers' meddling has happened in the show's history). And it shouldn't have to be adapted to pander to people who act as if it should be staged like professional wrestling. So your boredom is no excuse for Razer getting fucked over the way it did. I'd rather it be the most boring, one-sided, predictable battle in history with a rightful winner than a highly tense battle where cowardice gets rewarded. Do you Tornado supporters think you're cool or something just because you like getting behind the underdogs? There's a reason Razer won as much as it did. It's because it was one of the best designs and proved itself time and time again. I don't give a shit if you were bored by it - the machine legitimately earned its dominance and that's all that matters. And if you don't like that, that's your problem. Besides, it's completely arse-backwards to complain about a robot being so dominant when that's the point of the show! It's not as if Razer was invincible. As for the argument itself that Tornado wouldn't have had a chance against Razer without the anti-crusher web, just remember that Razer has been matched before without bullshit adaptations. Various competitors have managed to wedge underneath Razer to flip/topple it like Chaos 2, Behemoth and Gemini. Hell, even Cyrax did it in this very series and that robot was a rookie! You can't tell me after that that an experienced machine like Tornado couldn't have improved itself to outdo Razer's low ground clearance and its skid steer system. Plus, if you complain about Tornado having no chance against Razer but are fine with it being the other way round, you're fucking hypocrites.
_"Well you're just a Razer fanboy."_
No, you're just a moron if you come out with that dogshit. I'm not a fanboy of any robot. I just hate it when cowardice is allowed, let alone rewarded. And I don't give a shit who's responsible for it. My argument is fuck-all to do with favouritism and you can't prove otherwise. Besides, there are other outcomes that have nothing to do with Razer or Tornado that I find bullshit, and I've never been called a fanboy of any of the robots I think were fucked over on those occasions. So, why give me the fanboy accusation just because I speak on behalf of Razer? The only possible motive you could have for that is that you were just personally sick of Razer's dominance prior to this controversy, making you fucking hypocrites to call anyone a Razer fanboy, as you're the ones with kind of bias _against_ the robot. Also, the only robots I've ever favoured above the others are Killertron in Series 2 and Hypno-Disc from Series 3 until its retirement. And even back then as a boy, I never thought _they_ had any victories stolen from them. Well (as I saw years later as an adult), Killertron lost its final fight when it rightfully should have won, but again, no one's called me a Killertron fanboy for pointing that out.
_"Why can't you just get over it and move on? It happened a long time ago."_
Firstly, I don't give two shits. That's nothing more than a cop-out. An injustice that happened long ago in the past is still an injustice. Secondly, I'm not as affected as you think just because I have much to say about it. I just point out some things that I'm quite surprised people don't take into consideration. Thirdly, the only people who've ever told me to get over it and move on are those who disagree with my side of the argument, and I get the impression they just want me to agree with them and share their opinion. Those are two completely different things, you know. And I've never been told to get over it and move on by anyone who agrees with my side of the argument. And lastly, would you tell me to get over it and move on if I made a post like this on Storm 2 being fucked over in Series 7 when that too was a long time ago? If not, you're (again) hypocritical to ask differently of me in regards to _this_ controversy.
I know none of my words will change history, but I'm happy to get some truth out there either way.
Ryan O'Donovan completely I agree. I'm a huge Hypno disk and panic attack fan. However the design changes is just insane and having it so huge is ridiculous.
U ok hun xxxx
Jon Stock Not bad, although your piss-take of a reply is, due to being stupidly unfunny and aimed at the wrong person.
How can people think that Razer won? He didn't drop Tornado onto the pit. He still had hold of him. You can't claim a robot is pitted if you are holding them over it. Tornado was on top for the entire fight, had Razer immobilised on the sidewall, pushed him into multiple CPZs, dented a couple of panels with the spinner in the early moments, Shunt dented a top panel. Definite Tornado win. Razer guys just got salty because somebody worked out a way to stop their boring grab and crush tactic. I remember welcoming this result when I was a kid watching it live, and my adult eyes still see this fight the same way
I think that although what Tornado did seems unfair i still do not think he cheated. If the people at robot wars allowed it after the game then it wasnt cheating. I do still think it was a cheap move but still not cheating. If i were running robot wars i would remove the modification rule.
That’s not fair, Razer is the real champion.
Ah yes... the year that Tornado cheated.
They declared that frame at the start of the wars, so it was very clever planning imo.
How do teams travel with their builds? I doubt you could get on a plane with any of these things!
I'm assuming a lot of it is dismantled, also paperwork, lots and lots of paperwork.
I mean they probably just drive them surely? Most teams are from the British mainland so it'd be an easy drive, and the teams in Ireland can get the car ferry? So no paperwork required.
Razor is king
Razer DID win this! Tornado should have been classed as in the pit(Sir chromealot vs plunderbird 5)
But they got out of the pit thanks to Razer. Being in the pit does not mean a fight is over. Cassius invented a way of getting out of it but sadly never got to use it.
Tornado was still unable to move out of the pit of its own volition. Same as The Morgue when up against firestorm in series 4. It was never fully dragged out of the pit and was surely disabled/immobilised due to its inability to leave the pit? Also this cassius thing sounds pretty interesting. Wonder if the judges would allow a fight to continue if they could lift themselves from oblivion.
You have one Problem Rezer was Imobilised becaus they cant get away from Tornado so both was Out what now?
But you have to be immobile for a select amount of time. Razer was also holding Tornado for 30 seconds which isn't allowed either.
Yeah the Cassius thing would have been allowed. It had a huge spike coming out the back which Rex said on the show was a way of getting it out of the pit. It's not the pitting that ends the fight, it's the being stuck down there to ends it.
The immobile for a set ammount of time is a decent arguement also. But I personally acknowledge it as 'pitted' due to its inability to leave the pit area. Either way, unlike saying 'tornado cheated' (which is factually wrong) these are valid opinions.
I dunno about that 30 second rule. I know that if robots are lodged together and the fight ceases progress because of this, they are broken up by force. With Razer there was often progress made with the fight, by moving the robots into arena hazards and house robots for example, meaning the binding is in a sense, meaningful.
Oh, it was a spike, that is interesting. I would have liked to see a robot raise from the dead like that XD
tornado should have lost. this was unfair af
Why should they have lost? They dominated 85% of the match. They weren’t in the pit as Razer didn’t let go of them in time
*_ANTI PIT DEVICE_*
In my opinion a very sour end to a really, really good series. It doesn't help that I generally find Razer fights to be a lot of "make a hole and then spend three minutes getting them in the pit", but while that wire frame may have been perfectly within the rules (which it really shouldn't be anyway if it makes it impossible to pit), it makes for an even more bloody boring final than it already would've been.
Yes, it has some slight drama and tension, but there's so much dead air of just the two robots holding each other like a loving embrace. This series contains some of the best fights in the classic era as a whole and the grand final here definitely isn't one of them.
If you freeze frame the video at 37:07 (the last second of the countdown) and consider what would happen if Razer could just have let go, it's pretty obvious Tornado would instantly have fallen into the pit. So it was certainly possible to pit. Just that Razer couldn't let go at that moment.
Razer should've won. I remember a battle between Firestorm and The Morg where Firestorm went in the pit and Morg was on the edge but Morg lost as it was declared as actually being in the pit. Tornado was in the exact same situation. They were in the pit. Can't use one rule for one robot and one rule for all the others.
Yeah well, Tornado wasn't counted as being pitted like The Morgue was because Razer was still hooked on to Tornado's anti-crusher, unable to let go and drive away. And that's just one way the rules were stupidly inconsistent. I understand the rule of not immobilising your opponent just by pinning them in any spot in the arena, as that'd be too easy and you can't always tell if the opponent can escape under its own power or not. But it was glaringly obvious at 36:54 that Tornado couldn't have escaped from that dead spot whether it was held there or not.
Rules are extremely consistent. The Morgue was considered in the pit because it was released and couldnt escape - thus was immobile before Firestorm. Tornado was not in the pit, it was being held over the pit by Razer. All Razer had to do was release and back away and itd have won, but it didnt manage to do that.
In the same sense, Chaos 2 vs Wild Thing was not considered a win for Wild Thing - even though Chaos 2 actually went inside the pit whilst being held there by Wild Thing. The rule here was consistent however as Wild Thing needed to release for Chaos 2 to be considered in the pit - which freed the robot.
@@Garfie489 The reason Chaos 2 wasn't classed as pitted when pushed to the edge by Wild Thing was because not only did the former not fall in, but it was able to escape on its own. Tornado couldn't possibly have done that at 36:54 whether Razer was holding it there or not, as all four of its wheels were in a spot that they couldn't gain traction. So Tornado should've been classed as pitted. Plus, there's no point in the pit even being in the arena if robots are allowed to be big enough to prevent going in. Sure, you can still be classed as pitted by being immobilised over it or stuck on the edge, but that's just something to fall back on (no pun intended) in case for some _unexpected_ reason the robot won't fit. The pit's designed for robots to GO IN, not to be delicately placed over it. The latter method of elimination is what the grilles in Series 1 were for. So no, the rules for being pitted were not consistent here, let alone "extremely".
@@ryanodonovan9497 Solution: Get rid of the pit. Battlebots manages just fine without one.
@@KUTProductions At least that would make more sense than the rules of the pit not being handled properly.
See I think there are two options here. You can be impressed by Tornado's adjusting to Razor's repetitive techinque... or you could be a boring loser
It’s not being a “boring loser” to want the competition to not have cheapness and inconsistent rules. I’d respect Team Tornado if they _actually_ outdid Razer with their initial design, but they didn’t. They just welded scaffolding around their robot so that they couldn’t be touched, or even fit in the pit properly! That’s nothing to admire.
And what’s this stupid argument of Razer’s attacks being “repetitive” all about? That’s what it’s designed for, like every other robot is designed for a certain type of attack, DUH!
@@ryanodonovan9497If a robot can get hard countered by scaffolding, it needs work. Even when Tornado was sort of pitted, Razer probably would’ve needed to let go in order for it to count. Aside from that, Tornado won 99% of that fight.
Robot Combat is all about engineering, and guess what? Adapting to your opponent is good engineering.
@@codered9472 Firstly, there was _no_ engineering in the anti-crusher; only with the spinning blade, which was only there to exploit a stupid rule to allow the anti-crusher to exist; that rule being that it had to have moving weaponry on it. That's why Team Tornado couldn't use their anti-spinner against Hypno-Disc, or their anti-axe against Dominator 2 or Terrorhurtz, because neither device had moving weaponry on it. But why did it matter whether the devices had any kind of weaponry or not? It made no difference to the fact they were all designed to render the attack methods of specific robots useless because Team Tornado wanted cheap, improper victories. Therefore, for the sake of consistency at least, ALL of the devices should've been allowed, or none of them should've been allowed.
Secondly, and speaking of stupid rules, Razer shouldn't have had to detach from Tornado when immobilising it over the pit when it was obvious the latter couldn't escape from that dead spot whether held there or not. Probophobia didn't have to withdraw when it pitted Snake Bite; Razer shouldn't have had to withdraw from Tornado. And don't try saying that Tornado was put in a different place that escaped from later when that doesn't matter. The pit means INSTANT elimination and always has. Tornado should've lost right there alone, regardless of who did more in battle prior.
And thirdly, the idea of Robot Wars was so that you win with your initial design without any drastic changes to it. Yes, there's interchangeable weaponry, but what Team Tornado did was morally excessive for the competition, to the point it was practically a different robot. And I don't care how other shows would deal with such matters when that's their own business. Team Tornado didn't want to actually work on outdriving Razer to outscore it, so they exploited flawed rules to steal a victory and Championship they didn't deserve. That's cowardice and nothing more.
The Robot Wars equivalent of "The Mountain and the Viper" (Game of Thrones) one sided, right til the end, then a fairly anti-climactic shock nearly happens.
Tornado - straight genius 😏😏😏😏
Wasn't there a rule that Robot's weren't allowed to be bigger than certain dimensions?
They said it in the video, it wasn't over the maximum. The Pit being smaller than the maximum dimensions, is rather stupid though, and they should've considered it.
2 old kings fell foul in the heats, Chaos 2 and Panic Attack. From Joe. X
its simple..im watching this for the first time....tronado cheated
Watching it again all these years later, I do still think Razer had Tornado 'in' the pit, ie Tornado couldn't drive away so was technically in. So for me, Razer should have given the victory.
At the time I did think it was cheating, but looking back (And obviously still remembering what was to come) all through the series the Tornado team were talking about their different configurations for different types of robots, so I do believe this was something they had hidden just for Razer, and probably came up with the idea of the interchangeable weapon bay after Extreme 1 when Razer trashed it and was basically robot Tornado was vulnerable to. The conversation is easy to image:
We want to keep the disc which is very destructive, but we need a defense against Razer.
Well the rules allow for different weapons, we just have to declare them at the start and always be under the 100kg limit.
Ok, lets have something for Rzaer, and the disc, anything else?
How about a really meaty bulldozer blade that can absorb heavy hits, and because a wedge is useful as well.
To me, it's very, very clever interpretation of the rules that existed, so within the letter of rules, if not in the spirit of the rules. But as Andrew Marchant says; they're there to win, and in any sport where you design to a set of rules and regs, the way to get a decisive advantage is to make clever interpretations of them.
But even after all this time, my heart still belongs to Firestorm. Always the Bronze medal and always difficult to beat and sad we never got to see it get it's moment.
Tornado clearly won that fight. It was possible for them to be pitted if Razer pushed them in diagonally, they would have fallen in. I do see why people were (and still are) mad about this. That cage was kinda iffy with the rules, but at least Tornado didn't just have the cage with no weapon.
Razer's tatic of biting and not letting the oppentant go bit them when it mattered the most. Had they let Tornado go once they had them over the pit, they would have won.
Tornado definitely should have lost that last battle! They were held in the pit!!
I can't believe they got away with that frame. Surely they exceeded the 100kg weight limit with it, didn't they?! They were already just below the limit when they had the plow on.
that plough was basically just a solid chunk of metal, the metal struts aren't actually that heavy, most of the added weight would be in that spinning disc, the base weight of the robot isn't actually that high
Who does razer and tornadoes
Shirts look like big surprise 13 black of course
If there would have been crushers or choppers or hammers or screws around the arena...the Raven bird-like robot would have been Killed Outright!! Good Call....
Tornado took way more damage, and the frame being "to support that spinner" was complete BS, at the front sure, but the back and sides was just to stop Razer from getting in at them. Like I kinda get that being within the rules, but the amount of damage delt, mostly by themselves, to that extra frame should have lost them the fight
Tornado absolutely dominated the fight in every metric. Razer didn't cause any of that damage. However it received damage because of tornado
in the arena for the house robots, Shunt with the bulldozer blade. in the arena for the house robots, MR PSYCHO! LOL. Johnathon pierce said in the arena for the house robots twice
10:55 careful, this might get flagged for being pornographic.
The only reason I support Tornado as the champ is because Razer never let go. The anti crasher device was genius in my opinion, and I question why people call it an anti pit device.
yea , the pit simply needed to be bigger actually
then their would not have bin any fuss
Tornado would have had he's defence up vs Razer
but woud have still lost in the end
@@takoza5396 Was that a poem?
@@KUTProductions idd kut
Cue the Imperial March as the Razer lovers come from the north and the Tornado lovers come from the south.
Joking over, as much as I hated seeing Razer lose its title and prefer it over Tornado any day, I must say the claims of Tornado cheating are getting old. The frame was allowed.
So is the best battles of S6 or Extreme 2/Series 2 next?
I'm actually not going to release the Series 6 battles video until the Ultimate Countdown is done. The fights have slightly different criteria for placings on each list, but I wouldn't want to give anything away at all.
NJGW Makes sense. So I'm guessing ultimate countdown is top priority now.
As always Razer are given every advantage possible, with the house robots acting stupid and doing nothing to them whenever they got pushed into the CPZ. And they still lost. They were told well ahead of time about the attachments and I think they couldn’t believe someone had nullified their weapon. So they went in to try to use it anyway, to no avail. Had they really thought it through, they would have known the only strategy was to activate the pit early, push Tornado in, and wait for the countdown. Simple as that. They were completely outsmarted.
Essentially it comes down to rule interpretation, Battlebots is currently experiencing a similar issue with EXACTLY how far you can take battle to battle modifications and now they have a lot of 'judges discretion' based laws. Interchangeable weapons have been in the show from the start and they break no rules as it were. You can argue if it's in the spirit of the rules but as a concept it's no different from attaching extra armour to fight Carbide. Almost every robot these days has configurations that involve defending attacks from spinners.
My personal view is adapting a robot to that extent to defend against one singular opponent that happens to have an advantage in the ever developing rock paper scissors nature of robot combat is outside the spirit of the show, apparently they had a similar setup for fighting Hypno Disc that the judges deemed a defensive addition and was therefore barred. Having said that it's certainly not cheating and I do admit there is a significant issue in where the line of acceptable modifications should be drawn. Why shouldn't a team push the rules to their very limits?
The main tornado guy has got such an annoyingly smug face 😂
I really like Tornado but everytime theygo against razor they shit their pants and wear that grill
Razor is king
@AdrianYoungs81 if they could still fit in the pit it would be fine but making yourself bigger then the pit was normally against the rules and they had to get permission from the judges which is favoritism and just plain not fair
@@keepermovin5906 they wanted revenge for Matilda. I think.
@AdrianYoungs81 lol. Cheating
@AdrianYoungs81 definite cheating you mean? They practically reinvented their robot to take razer on. Tornado has no weapons at all and is too big to even be put in the pit. Completely unfair advantage
@AdrianYoungs81 what tornado had was a massive unfair advantage. Couldn't even fit into the pit. Razor clear fan favourite and almost unstoppable - seems to be show writers creating a challenge
Razor is a beast
Come on tornado you can do it
After all this time. I am still salty over Tornado using that frame.
That frame was cheating, how they got away with that boggles my mind
Everyone bitching about Tornado they got approval for the frame from the judges they always had modular weaponry before the battle started im prefer Razer but all is fair in love and robot wars
Most Razer fans hate the battle and believe that Tornado cheated, but Tornado legally won the fight
First, I want to say i'm neither a Razer or Tornado fan. My favourite robots are robots like Hypno Disk and Chaos 2, and I prefer Razer to Tornado. With this disclaimer out the way, there was 3 reason why Tornado legally won the fight
First reason is that the spinner "cage" was not an anti pit device. While it was undeniably an Anti Razer weapon (they even had an Anti Hypno Disk weapon that was banned after the Hypno Disk team raised a complaint about it) it wasn't designed to keep Tornado out the pit. The cage was in the guidelines and was approved by the judges (which is brought up before the fight)
Second, it's not illegal to have a robot that is too big for the pit. Look at robots like Black Widow in Series 5 or Anarchy in this Series. Do you think those robots would have been able to fit down the pit with the size of them?
Finally, the reason Tornado was not considered immobile, despite all 4 wheels being over the pit is because of the pinning rule. This rule prevents any form of immobilisation if a robot is in an immobile position and is being held there by another robot. It's why the Razer team have a stopwatch, to count how long they have got hold of a robot. This includes pittings. Case and point, Wild Thing vs Chaos 2 in Series 5. Wild Thing had Chaos 2 in the pit, but because the flipper of Chaos 2 was being held over the lip of the pit by Wild Thing, but because of the pinning rule, Chaos 2 wasn't classed as pitted. If Wild Thing had released the grip it had on Chaos 2, then Chaos 2 would have been counted as pitted. This same rule is why Tornado wasn't classed as pitted against Razer. Razer's crusher was keeping Tornado in the fight, and had they let go, then Tornado would have been classed as pitted.
I'll also like to point out that if it wasn't for the Anti Razer cage it would have been a boring fight. Razer was probably the best designed robot in the original run and the design made it near unbeatable. Robots like Bigger Brother, Dantomkia, Firestorm and Chaos 2 were all beaten with ease by Razer. Tornado had fought Razer a few times and got beaten easily by them, so they had to adapt to Razer, and their adaption reaped it's reward.
This is the only time where people had a problem with a robot modifying itself to better suit a fight, razor was great but incredibly boring to watch. Tornado did what was within the rules, nothing wrong with that, well deserved 👏
Yep. By that logic, anyone that put a self righter after chaos 2 won and thicker armour vs hypno disc were cheating as well
The final fight was completely rigged against Razor. That ridiculous 'weapon' not only stopped their own weapon but also prevented them from being put in the pit or even being reached by the house robots. They had no win condition.
Such a farce it was, I still believe to this day that this finale killed Robot Wars.
no matter how many times i've watched this, it still pisses me off that Tornado fricking cheated to win the title. i found out on the RW wiki that the judges made a blundering error but the decision still stood. bollocks to that! at least they should've done a rematch but with Tornado removing that fucking bar frame. i respect Tornado for what it's worth but that frame made me lose some respect AND the fact they did this EVERY time they fought Razer, angers me even more. I would say this and the fight between Storm 2 and Typhon 2 are the worst fights for me because of stupid decision making and in the case of tornado, cheating.
That wasn't this match. It was the Extreme Warriors War of Independence when the judges made the error.
@@anduril38 i know this now thanks. my bad.
Uh oh
RAZOR CHEATED
NJGW haha lol that beak attachment was obviously not fair ;)
Lol
#razerdidnothingwrong
......wait