@@WardenKaz @Baba hey noobs, Quandale Dingle back again. My finger doctor baba mc bibi son has committed identity theft on me and thrown me in jail. I will be breaking out and committing tax fraud under her name. My sister Saundale Dingle is going to break the world record for the most cheese balls chugged in under half a second. Come back next week to see me eat a pound of raw cookie dough while sitting on a tight rope.
Saying "Sonic shouldn't have a serious story" is like saying "Fallout shouldn't care about lore" :\ Franchises need to be treated with respect. It pains me to see franchises i love go down a path that robs them of their identity. :(
People who say that *clearly* never played any of the Kirby games. If you take a look at the crazy deep amounts of lore that series has, you'd be shocked. If a cutsy pink blob thing can have depth and serious story telling, why the hell can't a walking talking blue hedgehog have the same?
@@chaoschannel3428 Its because they try to compare Sonic to Mario, and fail to realise that Sonic was supposed to rival Mario not BE like Mario. Marios main games aren't trying to be story or lore heavy. But they think Sonic should follow the same principle because of his happy go lucky genesis days.
the joke is, the mariogames with good stories are some of the more popular ones, a good story would force them to fix the gameplay of the 2d games that are stagnant and yet people also say story is worthless in mario. both that series and sonic are a sad example of fans being dumb af. just that mario gets slightly less hate than sonic(yeah, mario gets hate. people do not notice because it is never called the worst thing ever unlike what happens to sonic)
@@y2kjetters317 Sonic1 and 3,yeah. Sonic2...I don't really know. The game barely had a real story unless one counts the offscreen stuff like the circumstances of tails meeting sonic, eggman burning down woodzone and the 7th chaos emerald being sealed by the gods because a tribe that had all of them ended itself in one night due to abusing their power.
I don't think I've ever loved a TH-cam video talking about SA2's story as much as this one. There's no mixing up English translation issues as problems with Maekawa's writing and I like how you've explained the more subtle details, especially foreshadowing and the connections between Shadow and Sonic. It's a shame the stories the series pumps out these days have about as much depth put into them as like, a Family Guy episode. I like how the details in the story play into the extra backstory from the Japanese strategy guide. Particularly everything raising the question whether the Shadow in SA2 was a replica or the original. (IMO, I LOVE the idea of the former!! The report says that Shadow wasn't 100% complete when he was ejected and the capsule was never found, which provides an arguably more suitable subject than the Biolizard for the "original data" he mentions) SA2 did far better than SA1 did at implementing those details. SA1 left out a lot of the Echidna backstory in-game, which is why you get people screaming about how the mural at the bottom of Lost World could exist and stuff. Hell, it didn't even give you the order of Tikal's flashbacks. I noticed some of Hero intro's textures are broken in the vid: That's caused by pak files not being able to read uppercase characters. The converters should take care of it in the latest SA Tools, but you can also rename the textures yourself. E0011texture, E0118texture and E0122texture have the same issue. (PS: Gerald's diary is what explains there being a sealed prototype to Knuckles)
Thank you so much for the kind words! The issues in the cutscenes were actually caused by a mod I was using at the time called "Dreamcast cutscene textures".
@@RubyofBlue Ooh. I don't recommend just having DC textures if you're looking for best quality, when it comes to cutscene textures SA2B isn't as clear cut as it is with SADX. Sure, SA2B does suffer from the quality loss from changing formats (especially textures with Alpha) but there's quite a few that are higher quality in that version, like the Chao in Space billboard when Sonic meets Shadow. It happens more with larger textures (256x256+) than smaller ones. A lot of the (not-tiny) cutscenes have lower quality textures in every version, so to find the best quality ones you have to find the best version of that texture, which is usually in a smaller cutscene or among the gameplay textures. For geometry it's usually a stage, but characters (other than Shadow I think) have higher quality textures in cutscenes than gameplay.
Ruby of Blue I love how you perfectly explain the story soooooo Well, I’m curious though, how would you rewrite Sonic Heroes if you could? The game is fine to me and I like it, Metal Sonic returns was Awesome! And the Introduction of E-123 Omega is really Cool, so I’m Interested in knowing how you would change it? (Thank you for reading.)🙏
Man, this was an eye-opening experience for me. I've always enjoyed SA2's story, but over the years holes in it popped up the more I revisited it. But the direct translation plus your own inferences really helped clear things up for me. I actually never knew anything about the possibility that Shadow wasn't the original or it's implications, I always thought that was just a line to foreshadow the Biolizard. Hell I didn't even know Gerald repressed his memories, or that his journal actually showed him slip into insanity instead of just immediately becoming a genocidal maniac. As much as I love the english dub, I'm shocked at how much information was lost in the localization. Thank you for this, it's really given me an even greater appreciation for Sonic Adventure 2. Especially as the current direction of the series' narrative and characterization grates on me more and more. Oh yeah, to build upon the theory that Shadow is based on the Super Sonic mural on Angel Island, I think it's likely that the Biolizard was based on the Perfect Chaos mural. It helps address the common complaint that Gerald went from a giant lizard to a hedgehog as the base for the Ultimate Life Form.
There's also Maya glyphs on both the Eclipse Cannon control center/core, as well as around the cannons core area in the Rouge, Knuckles, and Sonic segments.
I like the idea that Gerald found those two murals and was like "Okay, there's two animal-like figures here, and I want to create the ultimate life form. This hedgehog-looking thing seems to be fighting against the machine that looks like me, so I guess I'll start with the giant lizard-thing instead. If that doesn't work, _then_ I'll try basing it on hedgehog."
@@MxPokirby hate to be that guy but gerald never wanted biolizard to be giant and animalistic. He had always intended a, lets say, compact creature with a human level intelligence. Biolizard was a failure; he was actually a small creature at the start and showed promise but he just kept growing and didnt develop any intelligence. Its all written in the article rouge shows for like three second in the confrontation scene so i dont blame anyone for missing it but thats what i love about sa2 - it invites you to solve some mysteries by yourself instead of hitting you over the head with infodump.
Whenever people call SA2 a bad game, I think of this channel and it reminds me that some people are just blissfully ignorant of what a masterpiece it really is. The same people saying it's "outdated" or "aged poorly" are the same people that praise OOT or Majora's Mask when they suffer the same or even worse problems in some cases.
Yeah, people generally dissing a game just because of a certain quality that they do not like. This game is awesome and very fun. I was always marveled how this game’s levels were out of this world. Something that was out of my wildest dreams . The mech and treasure hunting stages where fun. Those are the stages that I’m really good at . Playing someone who was not Sonic was interesting and wonderful experience. The game respects the characters that we know and love . So , this is one of the best sonic games ever made in my book.
I think when Rouge says she got something better, she means friends. They've overcome incredibly disastrous odds together and experiences like that form lasting bonds. Plus she seems shallow and obsessed with material riches throughout the game. I don't really think she's someone who had friends before SA2.
SA2 might be goofy at storytelling, especially in the localized version, but I'll take it any day over the shitty self-deprecating humor of the modern titles where you can't have five minutes of tension without Sonic looking to the camera and saying something like "Who writes this stuff?"
Amen to that. This is why I'm glad SEGA has got rid of Pontac and Graff. These writers were honestly terrible and don't know anything about Sonic. Now, we need a competent writer who knows the story-telling very well (I hope it's Shiro Maekawa!).
I like to compare SA2 with Devil May Cry 3, because of how similar they are in how they have this hocky yet utterly earnest and sincere approach to storytelling. Heck even the rivalry with Sonic and Shadow plays out somewhat similarly to that of Dante and Vergil.
@Dread StarZ The story isn't even that bad, the worst stories I've seen are from Free Riders, Colors, Lost World, Boom: Rise of Lyric, Forces, and even Team Sonic Racing.
@Dennis Raid Idk maybe the same as other rock emitted sounds. Since the Chaos Emeralds and Master Emerald have incredible chaos power, maybe they emit unique waves like no other gems or rocks.
...Something that only just caught my attention. "Sigma-Alpha 2 Heading due south over the city." at the start of the Hero Story. Literally saying that SA2 is starting there. Can't believe it took me so long to see it.
“We’re en route and everything’s good so far.” “This is control tower, receiving your transmission. Care to clarify your status of captured hedgehog?” “That’s a 10-4!” (Police/Military code for “Understood,” “Good,” “Acknowledged,” and oh so popular: “Affirmative!” Which essentially means “we’re good!” Which is hella ironic considering the next part of that scene XD)
I am SEEN. I am VALIDATED. THANK YOU for saying what needs to be said, I COMMEND you, good sir!!! I've been periodically replaying this game since 2002 and you brought so many new things to my attention that I had never even noticed! Everything about this analysis is just so in-depth and well done, and I'm just feeling so jazzed about this game all over again!! I'm done making self-deprecating jokes about liking SA2, aight, we done with that scene. It's good, it's great, fuck ya chicken strips.
Something I hear discussed alot is, how did Gerald go from a prototype of a Lizard type creature to a Hedgehog? I believe the answer is that the Biolizard, the prototype of the ultimate lifeform was based off of Perfect Chaos. You shortly mentioned how Gerald went to Angel Island and the Mystic Ruins at 1:49:20. Perhaps the 1st place he went to was the Mystic Ruins and he found the mural on the wall showing Perfect Chaos. Chaos was shown to absorb the chaos emeralds' power and was a literal immortal God of Destruction. We 100% know this is knowledge Gerald could have found, due to SA1 where Eggman knows this exact info from artifacts he found. If that isn't enough, we find the Biolizard in game is by the shrine of the Emeralds, the exact same place Chaos guarded. Not to mention Chaos looked alot like a lizard/reptile creature in his final form! Chaos would also grow and change size when fed emeralds, the same way the biolizard kept growing. Plus Strangely enough would become upset and lose control when using the power of the emeralds like Perfect Chaos did. There is just way to many coincidences for this to be by chance. To go either further Perfect Chaos was defeated by a hedgehog using the power of the emeralds! It just goes to show if someone found this out, they would immediately go from designing a copy of Chaos to a copy of Sonic. Now I don't think there was any way of Gerald to know that a Hedgehog beat Chaos, however perhaps when the Biolizard, the copy of Chaos was failing him; He found the mural of Super sonic on the wall of Angel Island and actually successfully created the ultimate lifeform based of it.
You are a fucking genius and im angry i have never picked up on Gerald creating a hedgehog as a possible measure against the Biolizard, despite loving SA universe, goddamn. I was just happy to go "ULF just means immortal intelligent lifeform, its doesnt matter what form the prototype was taking and why Shadow is a hedgehog, it could be completely random move on Gerald part who probably had a lot of other prototypes at least in his blueprints and hedgehog just was a thing that worked".
The canonical reason for it was actually explained in a strategy guide and it’s actually a deeper story plot that I wish was talked about more in the actual game: info.sonicretro.org/Sonic_Adventure_2_-_The_Truth_of_50_Years_Ago...
that's awesome and all, but Chaos' original form resembled the Hedgehog physique as well. He could have also discovered Chaos' original form. Huh. sounded better in my head. None of these theories sound right tbh
I really love Rouge and Shadow’s friendship in sonic o6. When Omega goes into the future and finds that he was the one who re-sealed shadow when the world grows to fearful of him and Rouge promises that no matter what happens she will always stay with him. That was sweet. As is the conclusion where he fights off mephiles telling him that he’s gonna fight and protect the world no mater what it dose to him. I feel that perfectly fits Shadows role as a servant to hopes and dream if a ideal world. I also recommend the comics. Archie or IDW, they are the ones to go to for a sonic story with meat on its bones. And the comics also do a good job using these characters affectively.
Shadow's story in 06 is legit good. It's what convinced me that bringing Shadow back is worth it, because he's important to the cast of the Sonic series because he provides a unique perspective on the world. 06 kinda salvaged Shadow's character from Heroes and StH and solidified Team Dark as an iconic trio.
Ruby of Blue I never realized how much I hated sonic heroes plot until you kinda showed us what we lost. I still like some of the interaction. One part that stick out was after sonic’s team fights team dark and during the next level the discuss it a little a Knuckles jokes “maybe it was the G H O S T of Shadow” just to spook out Tails. And I really really like Omega. He’s a cool guy and is a interesting dark parallel to shadow. As someone that goes against his creators wishes. Which could be a cool other parallel to Metal Sonic but for some reason are never meaningfully connected as mirrors or contrast what kind of writing is that?!? But yeah thanks for making me think harder about sonic heroes. Thank I hate it. Lol
Infinite Octopaw I think Sonic Heroes was fine, Not every story has to be complex, Sometimes it’s needs to take a breath, I like Sonic Adventure 2 storyline I really do, And it did Introduce & Brought back my Favourite Characters E-123 Omega & Metal Sonic, (Thank you for reading.)🙏
@@RubyofBlue A simple solution to Knuckles's problems in Heroes (and Riders and 06) would be to use Amy as the power character of Team Sonic instead, it would make more sense for her to be in Sonic's company than him. This would also mean that Team Rose would be completely scrapped but they didn't contribute much to the story so it wouldn't be that big a loss, same goes for the rival battles (the characters start fights for flimsy reasons) in general. Shadow's own games story had to bend to the will of the stupid progression system so it would be easy to wright a proper story for it without it. 06 would just need more properly defined rules for it's time travel (like you can't encounter your past self or else you would cancel yourself out of existence. Also the removal of characters like Knuckles for example because the story of 06 has nothing to do with the master emerald. I don't mind Heroes story and I think 06's narrative isn't bad (for a first draft because there were clearly things that needed to be ironed out) but I can understand your disappointment. 06 made Shadow my favorite character and it is a shame to see him and all the other characters reduced to either cardboard cutouts or functions like how Knuckles is the power type regardless of whether or not it makes sense.
I personally thought about how to fix the story of shadow the hedgehog without losing much and it ain't easy. I would not want to scrap the progression system, so there would essencially more if-s in the rewrite than in the code of a noobprogrammer. I do have an idea for an alternate noncanon storymode(yeah, shadow is destined to have 95% of it's content be non canon) tho where there would only be dark and hero-routes and it would be the story of the characters end basicly. the idea is built around the unused song all of me btw.
"ThAt's NoT SOniC" Me: Okay......yeah, but how many anthropomorphic Hedgehogs that run super fast, that collect rings and chaos emeralds do you know of???
I really wish furture Sonic games had Sonic portrayed like this. The difference between how Sonic acts in the Adventure era and the Modern era is the difference between someone who is bold and someone who is smug.
It's not even just smug, after the SECOND voice actor change, Sonic became incredibly arrogant and childish. He went from actually cool to being kid friendly Deadpool. It feels like the new writers had never actually played a Sonic game before, and you can especially see this with characters like Shadow who is essentially a Vegeta clone now, Tails being a total coward, and Knuckles having the IQ of a toddler. I love Colors and Generations and actually like Lost World, but they've totally raped all the characters personalities and previous character development arcs except for probably Amy.
@@broom2839 To me Jason is the worst,Ryan made Sonic sound Natuarlly cool,and Roger sounds like a relaxed man,Jason sounds like He's trying to be so cool.
Aryan Descendant I can understand that case in terms of Jason's early years, but I strongly disagree in terms his later years (especially Unleashed and Black Knight)
This video is an absolute masterpiece man. I love your passion for SA2 and most of all I love the way you fully explain the entire story to such an extreme level of detail. It’s safe to say that I’ll be using this video a lot to help debate and debunk a lot of the misconceptions surrounding this story.
I never thought to analyze the lyrics in the songs in this game. It's brilliant. Love seeing how it all ties together and connects. Awesome video. It just increases my love for SA2
And make the canon even more of a mess? Why not just make everything after Unleashed non-canon (and redo 06's story) because it doesn't make sense with the rest of the canon?
@@charliekahn4205 Dude, did you not read my comment? "Throw out everything after A2 and make A3." Throw out. As in retcon. As in strike from canon. How the hell does that make the canon more of a mess? It literally does the opposite. What was your logic here?
@@charliekahn4205 No, modern canon wouldn't exist, like Sonic Boom, dmc: Devil May Cry, or the Rob Zombie Halloween movies. You'd pick up where Adventure 2 left off with Adventure 3 then jump off from there. Meaning Heroes, StH, 06, Unleashed, Colors, Lost World, Generations, Forces, etc. None of it happened.
They really should. They made such a mess now it’s such a disappointment. I at the moment consider every 3d game except shadow 05 canon. Sonic 06 technically never happened as well but the event did happen before being erased. Colors is not canon, generations is (makes a mess though) lost world and forces are definitely not canon. I think it would of been better if they kept shadow dead, he was only good in 06 and even then he was still to silent and shy but his actions did speak for themself. I would like shadow around if they based him off the Archie comics, he is exactly represented well then.
I really do believe that Sonic 06 is the reason they wont make another adventure style game, but i fully believe that if they get people on the team that understand the SA games and work together to make a true SA3 that it could be done. Mania was made by people that love the 2D games so I fully believe this could be a thing. The problem is that Sonic Team really doesnt seem to get it anymore. IMO the worst parts of Sonic Mania were things like it being tied to Sonic Forces. The team didnt want to make a game full of remade levels, they wanted a brand new 2D Sonic game. Its like Sega doesnt understand there own character and its just surreal. I also want to point out that I am very much sick of the boost games at this point. I like them enough but I honestly feel like im buying the same game with a different coat of paint. Say what you want about SA1,2, Heroes, and 06, they felt like very different games to me, with SA2 being the peak of content for a Sonic game. Generations has a lot of it too but SA2, to me, is the Sonic game with the absolute best replay-ability and the most things to do. Its also very challenging a lot of the time to A rank a mission. S Ranking missions in boost games are a friggen joke now with maybe 1 level being slightly challenging if your lucky, but it does say alot when I pop in SA2 again and find myself really working to get the A ranks despite me already 100%ing this game quite a bit of times. What I think should happen is that Sega should bring people on that know and love the SA games, get them to make an SA style game the same way Sonic Mania was a 2D style game, and see what happens. I dont know how it would go now a days though with people bashing these games left and right now and trying to drag these games in the mud. I can only hope something like that happens though.
Wrong. Unleashed was originally gonna be SA3 before they decided to focus more on Sonic. And that game had a pretty good plot. Colours onwards, the stories and characters got butchered. And S Ranking is definitely not a joke in Unleashed. It has the same Rank Principles as SA2 and 06. Colours onward though, S Ranks are a joke.
I think they know that the adventuregames and similar sidegames are superior,but they have a destinct fear of the past from the bashing that sa1-shadow received in the recent years and from the financial failure 06 was. unleashed was the last adventure game(its japanese name is actually world adventure) and people hated everything that had to do with the werehog. then they just released black knight to give the edgy fans their final fix and went on to make colors. it is kinda sad how much the series lost its backbone really.
@@awesomeguy2009 It's interesting how the game started off as Adventure 3 while 06 was still being made. My guess is they were in the early stages, then they saw Sonic 06's reception and tried to get away from it. Which meant killing Adventure 3 off I guess, because 06 became an argument trump card for those who disliked the Adventure games.
@@awesomeguy2009 In Colors, you mostly revisit levels and abuse color bonuses to boost your score. It's not about learning the best path through levels and balancing out speed and defeating enemies so much that it's finding the one way you're supposed to get S Ranks, which isn't skill-based.
Beautifully done - allowed me to finally share in something deeply meaningfully and genius within this game and these characters. My son has always known about the brilliance in this - but I always saw it as a kid game with cartoony characters and I've missed all of this until tonight. But tonight I got to watch this with my son and bond with him by being able to see what he's been trying to explain for years since he was a little kid with way more insight even as young boy then I ever knew - and I always knew he was a brilliant - I just didn't know Sonic and Shadow and this whole universe was too. Kailen - I finally get it.
Seriously, how could Eggman come from a Big bad, to a Big dope! How could Shadow come from the Ultimate life form, to the Ultimate edge lord! And Tails come from the brave side kick, to the side kick who can barely even stand on his own two feet without Sonic as a crutch! Really Sega, you messed up on something so simple as keeping characters consistant? I'm truely dissapointed in a company that over the past year, I've grown so much respect for!
Sonic Team and SEGA have shown that they have had no clue what they're doing for years. They put the director of Generations in charge of Mario and Sonic at The Olympic Games 2014 and had somebody else come in to direct Lost World. After that, they used up THREE of the FOUR years they were given to make Forces and used three of those years to make a new graphics engine that doesn't even look as good as the original Hedgehog Engine, and then had THREE level designers work on the level design for three different characters in about a year. Those level designers also never worked on a Sonic game prior to Lost World, and one of them from what I understand had only ever worked on one of the Olympic Games spinoffs. It really starts to make you realize why over half of the stage locals are from past games, specifically the genesis title, and also why they're rarely over a minute in length. Of course that really only barely scrapes the surface of Sonic Team's/SEGA's fuck ups and doesn't even cover the garbage they've done before 2010, relating directly to games or other media.
This man's explanation of "Live and Learn" is so insightful and very well done. He does a great job of dissecting the lyrics while relating both real life issues and experiences that the cast of characters went through
Ah, so it makes sense. While in custody, Gerald Robotnik modified Shadow's memories of his final moment with Maria, so that he would seek revenge against humanity, just like he wants, instead of willing to protect it. He made so that Shadow if set free, would grant his wish, and not Maria's. This just shows how the poor English localization of this game really adds to the confusion around the story. This game's scenario already felt good despite some flaws and inconsistencies here and there but now that you've shown the intended version, in original Japanese, it looks so much better. Man, the nerve of them to go back to cringy writing and shallow storytelling in games like Colors and Lost World after the gem that was SA2's story. Thanks for making this video and setting things clear man; this game can definitely use some positivity!
Shadow never got out much, if at all. Maria was his only friend. Of course he'd take it too far if anything happened to her, his only happiness in life. Especially since she died right in front of him at the hands of GUN. I don't think his memories were modified, but I can accept it as just a what if theory.
@@knucklesechidna2124 According to the Japanese text of Gerald's diary, the professor did modify Shadow's memories. If not, then why would Shadow seek revenge against humanity if Maria's last will was for him to protect it instead?
Honestly, I kinda wish the Story was laid out slightly diffrently. The way it is currently, there are three diffrent versions of the event and none of them really make sence if we look really close. All three have GUN just shoot Maria because "eh, let's kill this girl" and the two versions shown in Shadow the Hedgehog do not even have Maria send shadow down. Not to mention, how did she even have the time to do that in the version shown in SA2 when they were shooting her down? I would like it more if how shadow tells the story would be the fake memory given by Gerald and the SA2 Version would be the way his mind overwrote those memories with a blurry moment of Maria giving him her last wish because he was pretty close to her and the Version he remembers at the end of the game is just his mind correcting since amy remembers him that she would have never wished for revenge.
And shadow the hedgehog seemed to messed that part up saying Gerald wanted shadow to complete his purpose when in reality he wanted for humanity to die. Shadow 05 was such a missed opportunity.
@@nascarconnor1254 Well, at first gerald wanted good for humanity and then when he saw that everyone he knew and loved was killed in the event, including maria, he constructed the revengeplot. It would actually work well with shadow the hedgehog even....if the eclipse cannon did not get destroyed in SA2. That is kinda a continuityerror anyways tho since eggman canonically inserts the real emerald into the energyconsole instead of sonic inserting the fake.
The thing I like the most about sonic games is that they usually start out in a tropical paradise or city and end in a futuristic, sterile environment or space. It almost feels like most of the time in games sonic is trying to find ways to get into space since that’s usually where eggmans bases are located.
SA2's story along with Live & Learn is one of the deepest and most compelling stories about mental health ever told and this video helped me understand that back when it first came out, I already loved SA2 as a child and to find out that the story was this deep and meaningful was such an emotionally fun moment for me when I watched this vid for the first time back in 2020
The Sonic Adventure games had a strong balance between lighthearted and dark moments. Every other Sonic game story wise is either too simplistic with not much depth (Heroes, Colors, Generations, Lost World, etc), overly dramatic and too serious (Shadow, 06, Forces), or relied on visuals due to hardware limitations (Sonic 2 and especially 3).
I wasn't knocking the Mega Drive games. The fact that Sonic 2 and especially 3 could tell a coherent story with no dialogue is something I have massive respect for (not to mention the attention to detail when exploring Angel Island from one zone to another). If there was one thing Sonic did better than Mario from the start, it was storytelling. Dr. Robotnik coming super close to taking over the world at the end of Sonic 3 really gave the impression that he was learning from his mistakes and improving his villain act. I will admit it's weird that Dr. Eggman went from world domination intentions to destroying one city in Sonic Adventure but then again he probably didn't have the money to build another Death Egg.
@@knucklesechidna2124 I agree with you guys. With each genesis sonic game, Sonic team expanded on the storytelling. That's why mania was disappointing imo. Good level design, ost and controls but it just lacked overall substance. If anything, its story is behind Sonic 2 and is barely above sonic 1's level of storytelling.
I can't group Heroes with those other 3. Simplicity doesn't group with the over-light-heartedness. Heroes was as simple as it could get, but with using established roles. The characters were shallow but still in line with who they were in the Adventure games. As for Colors, Generations, and Lost World...I can't even begin to explain the lack of consistency with the characters in those games - not to mention the lack of relevant characteristics.
After watching this multiple times, I've gone to appreciate the older games. SA2 being the most appreciated. Because a common thing I've noticed and this is apparent in Jebtube's videos and how much you repeated it. The older games, mostly Sonic 1 2 3& Knuckles SA1 &SA2, they each build off each other. Game Apologist lightly remarks on this in his "Unapologetic Sonic 3 & Knuckles" video. To this day I still remember the stories of SA1, SA2, Sonic & The Secret Rings, and Sonic & The Black Knight the most. Anyway, I said all that to say I loved the video and I wish the older games could be played on the newer systems like the PS4. No, I'm never counting PS Now as a way to play them.
I just picked up Sa1DX and Sa2B ports on my xbox one , I'm told they run on the series x as well Though DX is notoriously a bad port and so Is sa2b to an extent , it's still my preferred way to play given that I dont have a pc
If I have one complaint. It would be how tedious it is to raise chao to win chao races just to get ten emblems. Aside from that (as well as a few frustrating missions), it was a blast.
You know looking back, I actually didn’t think about this before but you know what’s also an interesting parallel to SA1? Maria and Shadow. Let me explain: in SA1 who was devoted to Chaos and who was also devoted to protecting the Chao (innocent creatures) in SA1? Tikal. Similarly, Who was loyal to Maria? Shadow. If we compare Maria’s desire to protect the innocent people on Earth, to Tikal’s desire to protect the Chao and protecting innocent people from being pillaged and plunged by the echidnas, then you realize Maria standing up to G.U.N can also be a parallel to how Tikal stood up to her father for killing innocent people and not opening up their hearts, much like how the military refused to spare Maria and the others on the colony.
I absolutely enjoyed every second of this video. This game has been part of my life for 17 and a half years and is by far one of my most played games ever. I've most likely put in well over 1000 hours into it, and have familiarized myself with nearly every line of dialogue in the English release. The way you put into the words the amount of effort, the way the story was conveyed among other things was absolutely amazing. I've wanted to make a video on this subject for quite some time, but it looks like now I don't have to. I share the very same thoughts and opinions on this game. You've put everything into perspective from how well this games story is told and what needed and didn't need to be shown for an audience to understand the themes. Sonic Adventure 2 is a fast paced, heart wrenching work of art that deserves all the praise it gets. Well done, by far one of the best videos on this game to date. You've graciously earned yourself another subscriber.
Great analysis. For years SA2's story has been my favourite in the series. It has great action, funny moments that don't bog down the pace of the story and is genuinely heartwarming. All of the characters were very well handled in this story (except Amy, she doesn't really do much after prison Island and before the final story) especially Sonic, Shadow, Tails and Dr Eggman. I think Sega misunderstood what made SA2's story work. SA2 earned its darker moments by building them up. Most importantly it focused on the characters themselves. I think this is where Shadow, 06 and Forces really missed the mark. Shadow The Hedgehog completely bastardized Shadow's character and was way too forceful at being dark. 06 tried to be dark and mysterious but failed due to boring characters and wasting time with repetitive plot points that go nowhere. Forces not geniene at all with its story. It doesn't build up its darker aspects and drops them within a second for an annoying joke and friendship speech. If they want to do another serious story again the writers should think on how to actually fit the characters into the story and build it up. Both Adventure games start light on the tension before picking up. They could also do what Unleashed did and start dark but then ease the tension for the first few levels. What is most important is that they should genuinely commit to a serious story, make it interesting, earn the serious moments and get the characters right.
Amy has a good purpose in the story, helping Shadow realize Maria's wish. It's not as big a role as SA1, but to me it's just as important. This game is more story driven so they gutted Amy's gameplay for making both Hero and Dark gameplay exactly the same. But I'm okay with her being there in the story's cutscenes. At least they gave her a part. These days Sonic characters just cheer from the sidelines.
@@obd9660 The theme of freindship by itself is so boring and overdone, its really difficult to be done well, it can be included but it should have more unique messages within it. Even your basic power of freindship shonens like Naruto and One Piece have underlying messages that expand on it.
I loved Sonic Adventure 2 before, but this analysis of the story makes me fall in love with this brilliant game all the more. Incredible. I don't know who is saying the story is trash, and I don't even care. This level of storytelling, lighting, voice direction, respect for the characters, and nuance... This is what's needed in a story, and this is what brings people back to this game. Yes, it has plotholes and gaps in knowledge, but this video has shown how easy it is to patch them up should this game be remade (well). And I have a new appreciation for Live and Learn, which I've always placed behind Open Your Heart--not anymore. The world needs a Sonic Adventure 3.
It's my first game that had a story to follow. I remember being so invested with the colourful cast of characters that I watched Sonic X and became a fan of the series!
What I love about Gerald's research when trying to create the ultimate life form is that Shadow and the biolizard are pretty much artificial versions of Sonic and Perfect Chaos it really explains a lot on how Gerald actually has been to Angel island and the mystic ruins trying to make his own scientific creation
Back when Sonic games had a more dark serious tone, but also keeping a perfect balance of it's light heartedly tone with a mixed batch of comedy. Now all we get is, BALDY MC NOSE HAIR, POWER OF FRIENDSHIP, EGGMAN IS A JOKE. And so forth. I really wish they would go back and give Sonic game's not only the adventure style gameplay but also it's story. I'll definitely take a 06 story again.
That mistaking shadow for sonic point makes a surprising amount of sense now that I think about it that way... except for Amy mistaking him for sonic (imo), she idolises and crushes on him.
As far as I'm concerned, no other game since 2 is canon to the universe of Sonic Adventure 1 and 2. The story was just too strong for it to be ruined by the new ones. I mean Shadow's death alone is so powerful that even 10 year old me knew better than to want him back because his story was tightly knit.
i gotta admit i was one of those people who didn't get how people can mistake shadow for sonic, but now you've made such a valid point,i totally understand it now!!
SA2 IS GOOD GAME. SA2 IS GOOD GAME. SA2 IS GOOD GAME. GIMME MORE SA2 PLOX THANK YOU. Alright, but yeah, this game is a LOT better than other big name game critics have made it out to be. You have single-handedly proven it. Good job with your feature-length long reviews.
@@alfa01spotivo that's not a very thorough critique of the game tho. And I just want to say that whether a game is actually "good" or not should not stop anyone from enjoying the game. If you like it, then more power to you
@@Spamus Yeah, try not to rub your opinions into other people's faces. Sharing opinions is fine, but your tone is just so annoyingly condescending. Also, game design is something that's subjective. To me, SA2's gameplay is 2/3 amazing, and 1/3 alright. The other aspects like story, art direction, post-game are all great too.
Phew... what a wild ride these two reviews were, and I must say I wholeheartedly agree with everything you've said. The adventure games have received an incredible amount of hate, and your analyses show just how underserved this hate really is. Those were real reviews, made by someone who is passionate and is not afraid of putting in a lot of work to really explain, in-depth, why these games are really good and what are their flaws. I couldn't enough stress the need to set the record straight about the adventure games: despite their flaws and a poor English localization, they fully deserve to be praised for their amazing gameplay and storytelling. Unfortunately, a bunch of angry reviewers who lazily put up a half-assed critique of games they likely didn't play for a long time tarnished SA1 and 2's reputation, but I really hope that passionate reviewers can bring some positivity and finally change some minds. Maybe then, we will finally get full-fledged remasters of SA1 and 2, and a Sonic Adventure 3. Thanks a million for taking the time to make an over three hours long analysis in defense of this amazing game.
i remember looking forward to this game on the sega. Dreamcast and i had it sonic adventure 2 was so much fun it has replayable game even the Game cube version was a blast from s.a 1 to s.a 2 they need to ether remake both Games or remastered them
From start to finish this video all together highlights what makes this game as great as it is while not glossing over it's flaws and inconsistencies. This was a joy to watch, thank you for this in depth analysis.
2:07:00 "With good gameplay and a good story you have an unforgettable experience" YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! SA1 and SA2 are perfect examples. 100% a good review!
6 หลายเดือนก่อน +1
I was watching this while going from my 175 emblems to 180 emblems and finished when you got to cannons core.
Sonic Adventure 2 is garbage because the ghosts gave me nightmares the first time I played, and they still freak me out. 0/10 Joking aside, I hate the ghosts but I appreciated this game and Adventure 1 a hell of a lot more once I played with Windii's translations. This gave me a bit of a deeper appreciation beyond that, though. Great video!!
Meteor Herd creates a cliffhanger and suspense within Sonic's storyline which you'd expect to be followed up on as soon as possible. It's really crafty.
You know I already loved SA2 even when people started hating the game after a certain reviewer did a half-ass review on it. I knew deep down the story did have lots of heart and thought put into it though yes, I will admit that I did think the usual seeming plot holes like the dumbness of Sonic being mistaken for Shadow, Sonic using the power of a fake Chaos Emerald, and many others but after hearing someone actually bring in some context about why these things actually aren't plot-holes, I can admit wrongness on my end. The only one that I wish had more context was how Amy managed to sneak onto Prison Island. See this is why it would've been if they had Amy be a minor playable character, they could've done one level for her where she's traversing Prison Island to get to Sonic's jail cell. I dunno, I think that would've been cool and would've played on her character from the first SA game showing that she really is trying to be more independent. But aside from that, I happily take back the other plotholes I bought into, especially people mistaking Sonic for Shadow because what you said is true, context is important in a lot of these cases. Though I will say that even as a kid, I did catch on to the secret agent contacting the President's secretary was Rouge which I thought was clever as it hinted towards it without outright telling you. And I never played the game in Japanese but holy crap I can see why some people say the script was better than the dub. I do really like the English Voice Actors even if the acting wasn't perfect but seeing the Japanese script, I really wish they didn't change it and kept it straight though I think it's because of the usual "It's too dark for children!" thing but Eugh... Just why? The original script was so bloodcurdling in a lot places. I really was missing out haha. I'm also reminded how great Shadow was presented in his debut and it's such a shame his character was flabbergasted in the later games. In my opinion as much as I love the character, he should've stayed dead after SA2 as it would've cemented his legacy just like what happened to E-102 Gamma. I know that it's the popular thing to hate on SA2 and say things like it really wasn't as good as we remember or thought but I just have to disagree. Yes it's true that many people praise this game but look at all it did, can you really be surprised that it garnered such a huge fanbase for it? With all the context put into the story when you actually think about it and how some of the gameplay quirks aren't as bad as you'd believe if you know practice the ins and outs of how it worked, the game truly was an experimental gem in the Sonic franchise that took risks and while not perfect, a great era for Sonic's evolution into 3D (before it all went downhill...). Anyway amazing retrospective, probably one of the best videos on SA2 I've seen. :)
Out of curiosity who was the reviewer who started the trend of mocking the Sonic Adventure series? I've seen a number of videos detailing that same sentiment, but I didn't know it had any specific origin point. I always just figured it was a popular game that got recommended to people over the years, and as games in general got better the flaws in the Sonic Adventure series became more noticable. Well that, and a lot of online discourse being pretty toxic. But I'd be interested in seeing the original review that spawned all this, if for nothing more than to leave a thought-out rebuttal to the points raised.
The best part is they did say rouge was working for the president, shadow specifically said rouge got direct orders fro the president when he figured her out in the dub.
SA2 is literally my favorite Sonic game and I still wish Sonic Team can go back to do this type of story and presentation since the Adventure games are my favorite of the Sonic series no matter how people say crap about it because those were Sega's last hurrah on Dreamcast
Ruby, it would be awesome to hear you talk about Heroes-Shadow-S06. I have an all-new appreciation of these games after watching your streams and actually replaying Shadow because of you.
The adventure games, unleashed, and black knight are peak sonic storytelling imo. They all started out lighthearted, but got serious and got stakes as the game progressed. Something I noticed is that this has been a thing in the form of level aesthetic since the first game (compare green hill and scrap brain and you see what i mean), and each game afterwards expanded on that storytelling, with it truly taking off in Sonic 3&K. Even if the adventure games’ presentation aged horribly (even more so Adventure 1) they’re still amazing in story imo and expanded on everything from the classics.
Missed a little detail that may or may not be foreshadowing at the start of the Dark story - when Eggman is awakening Shadow there's an Engrish-y inscription that reads: "Astronomers are concluding that monstrousblacks" As far as Shadow being more brooding in Heroes and Shadow - it's kind of the point. Shadow has amnesia and has no idea who he is, why he is, or even IF he is. He has nothing but quesitons and no answers. He was more upbeat in Heroes and Battle but eventually it got to him and he finally had a lead in his own game, only for it to be thrown in the middle of a huge war between the humans and the Black Arms. After the events of Shadow, in '06 he was more in-tune to his appearance in SA2, but still not exactly the same as by that point he'd undergone a lot and his whole life and everything he thought he knew had been flipped upside-down many times, even with his new friends to hold him up.
I’ve always adored the Adventure games since I was super young and have been saddened for a long time by how many people have written them off as bad games with bad stories. the love that you have for this game shines clear through your words and it’s just so refreshing to hear it made me tear up several times. this is a wonderful video, man, I’m so glad I watched it.
You know a story is done right when you almost cry at someone RECAPPING the ending 😂 this game got me in the feels so bad that I get residuals every time I revisit it
One thing I always thought was really cool about Knuckles' stages is that they get progressively spookier with Pumpkin Hill, Aquatic Mine, and Death Chamber, and it culminates in the King Boom Boo boss fight as a send-off to the spookiness, and Meteor Herd is much more free, literally and figuratively.
I miss this shonen anime style writing Sonic games used to have, it fit the series like a glove SA2 and Black Knight had the best stories in the series
This video is great, but it sadly reminds me of how much people like to crap on Sonic game's stories even when they're at their best. Even when these games were new all you would ever hear is people (who most of the time had no idea what they were even talking about) complaining. Always idiotic stuff like.... "Humans don't belong in a Sonic game!" "Why isn't it set on Planet Mobius?" "These characters suck! The Freedom Fighters like Sally Acorn are a million billion SQUILLION times better than these Lame-o Freaks!" "That's not Robotnik! He supposed to have a pointy head, glowing red eyes, and a robotic arm just like he did in the old games!" Or the worst one of all were the people who would be frantically bashing buttons during every cutscene going "YEAH YEAH, BLAH BLAH, WHATEVER! CHRIST LET ME JUST GET ON WITH THE GAME! NO ONE PLAYS SONIC GAMES FOR THE STINKY STORY!" And Sega have sadly taken that to heart and have just decided not to try as hard anymore!
Sega really needs to stop listening to the people who shit on Sonic games for stupid reasons! Especially in terms of story! Sonic having a good story is what used to make his series great! If people say "No one plays Sonic games for stories!" then they're NOT Sonic fans!
Nintendo, even with all of their kid friendly games, had some truly deep and engaging experiences. Nobody judges Nintendo for being too dark in their epic games. Why Sonic? Isn't Sonic supposed to be the more mature alternative to Mario? The Super Mario RPG games (Including Paper Mario and the Mario and Luigi series) were epic despite being based on a series of games that was very cartoony and kid friendly. then there's the Legend of Zelda series, the Metroid series, the mother trilogy, the Golden Sun trilogy, ect. Why is it ok when nintendo does it, but not Sonic? Sega has tons of other great epic games like Skies of Arcadia, Panzer Dragoon series, Golden Axe series, Streets of Rage series, House of the Dead series, ect. I think that Sonic Heroes was a lot of modern gamer's "first Sonic" and as such, they expected it to be that way from then on. So when Shadow the Hedgehog and Sonic 06 came out trying to rectify it for older fans, they failed miserably. It was Sega constantly trying to fix what aint broke while misunderstanding fan complaints.
@@knucklesechidna2124 "Why's it okay when Nintendo does it, but not Sonic?" I think it's people being shallow, assuming "Ooh, that looks like something my precious little infant will love.", do you know what I mean?
7:49 Sonic and his friends probably wonder why there was never a Chao in Space 3, and why the Chao movies went downhill like they did. (haha) Edit: Hmm, and Dark Super Sonic (from Sonic X) and Shadow don't look too different. Amy in SA2: Don't wanna marry me, Sonic? Tch, fine! Amy in later games: Marry me! No means yes, Sonic! If there's ever a "Sonic Adventure 3", Shiro Maekawa needs to come back to write it.
There was finally a Chao in space 3 in generations, in Crisis city. Too bad 06, and crisis city technically never existed. So chao in space 3 never existed.
@@andrix7777 no. they did put the "Chao in Space" ads in Speed Highway, "Chao in Space 2" ads in City Escape [look well, you may find the billboard] and Crisis City has the "Chao in Space 3". Please notice I only talk about generations here
The last month, I've found a bunch of videos about people loving SA2. I've only mostly heard the hate sonic games gets. It's nice to hear others show love to my favorite character, and probably my favorite game in the catalogue
Excellent, excellent video, Ruby. You did an utterly fantastic job analyzing the masterpiece of storytelling that is Sonic Adventure 2. These are all things I picked up on even with the faulty English translation, and whenever I had brought these things up to other people, they were in awe, thinking that SA2 just had some silly plot or something. My personal take on the final line is that it feeds into the "natural vs. artificial" theme that ran throughout the story. Shadow (who I consider to be the real thing and not a copy) was designed by Prof. Gerald to be the Ultimate Life Form. However, Sonic is naturally the Ultimate. He may not be immortal like Shadow, but he exceeds Shadow in all other regards. It's Sonic's own willing determination and dedication to the good of humanity, plus his natural abilities, that make him the Ultimate. In this case, Shadow is the Copy, despite him being made to possess those qualities. We'll have to see what Maekawa would have to say about this, though, in case anyone asks him. It is a legitimate curiosity. If Sonic is indeed Gerald's final creation, then that would make his relationship to Dr. Robotnik all the more personal. All that being said, I do agree that it's a shame that Heroes took a dump all over character development instead of letting it continue. I would've loved to see Knuckles and Rouge deepen their relationship, and I would've loved to see them continue a character arc that had been building up since Sonic 1 on the Genesis - Dr. Robotnik's quest of revenge on the world for ruining his family's name. SA2, to me at least, made it clear that Robotnik saw the errors of his ways thanks to the very real implications of Gerald's insane plot to destroy all of humanity, himself included. Once he came to grips with all of this, Robotnik had a change of heart and helped Sonic and co. stop his grandfather's program. It is during this ordeal and the aftermath he has with Tails that Robotnik put his past behind him and reformed for good. Cue a proper version of Heroes, where Metal Sonic is none too pleased to hear about his master being a changed man and takes matters into his own hands... EDIT: I'm actually fine with Knuckles being how he is in Heroes, and I actually find it being good character development for him (though I would've preferred him being a bit more serious). In SA1, Knuckles was the rigid, no-nonsense guardian of the Master Emerald. He's bound to his duty, with no hope of escape. However, we later find out that the reason why he's guarding the Emerald (and why Angel Island was floating in the first place) was to ensure that Chaos was never released. With Chaos set free and ultimately redeemed, Knuckles's job is now moot. By the time SA2 takes place, Knuckles has voluntarily taken it upon himself to guard the Emerald out of respect for his lineage, but he doesn't need to be so OCD about it. He's finally free, and he's likely done some treasure hunting in the process to learn more about his people. While he's still serious, you can tell that a big load has been taken off his shoulders. He's smoother and more relaxed. Honestly, I wouldn't have minded seeing Knuckles wearing his get-up from the OVA in SA2 to reflect this change.
Honestly, they really should have gone the route of eggman being less evil than before. Like, I can see him falling back on it in certain games(like let's say the modern era specifically), but he should have been more ambiguous outside of that. Like, they could have done a plottwist in unleashed where his shenanagans basically helps everyone. Having the planet be split could just prevent dark gaia from awakening and he gets his robotnikland as a sideeffect. Maybe have him as a red herring in rush who just supplies eggman nega with resources and helps him with technological concepts because he has no idea what the guy is doing with them.
@@lpfan4491 The way I see it, Robotnik could've been doing good in Heroes and Shadow the Hedgehog, but then in Sonic '06, Mephiles tempts Robotnik and causes him to briefly return to his evil ways. It's only after seeing all the destruction that he's helped cause (ultimately leading to Sonic's supposed death) that Robotnik realizes what he's done and truly puts his old ways behind him. With Robotnik's full redemption, there can be room for new villains and new possibilities in general.
Dang... I already loved Sonic Adventure 2 to bits as my favorite Sonic game, and one of my most favorite videogames of all time, up with Banjo-Kazooie, Metal Gear Solid 2: Sons of Liberty, Devil May Cry 3: Dante's Awakening, Ratchet & Clank: Going Commando, Doom, and Persona 5, but this just takes everything to a whole new level. I feel like Maekawa Shirou is someone I would *really* love to meet.
This is a stunning analysis of the themes and motifs present in this game as well as how they extended and built off of the canon established in the previous games in the series. I especially like how you used the original dialogue instead of the more clumsy English translation to confirm your points. You've brought out a lot of the more subtle elements and hints in the story and exposed them pretty well and I'm floored by the amount of research that must've gone into this, aside from the writing and pacing of a video that's over 2 hours long. Not a single second was wasted. I'd love to see more analysis videos from you like this; you clearly know your stuff well beyond the superficial elements.
I assume they mistook Shadow for Sonic with the words, "Hedgehog moving at the speed of sound," not thinking it necessary to add the blue aspect since... that alone was an amazing feat. In fact, that kind of ties into the theme of Shadow and Sonic's imposter plot. Though, bringing up the transformation aspect is a really good point.
Another reason I think Sonic canonically wins against Shadow is that, it would make more sense, if your intention is to destroy the Earth, to just have the cannon fire on the Earth automatically. Making it fall is only a good idea if the cannon is damaged somehow.
A fairly long video that perhaps could use some brevity, but ultimately it's *VERY* well written. I think a major reason people don't look closely at the story of SA2 is because of the poor localization that muddles several plotpoints and that fact that a major payoff from Shadow isn't even heard by players who are rushing to finish off the boss in 5 minutes. Really though, if they remade the game and localized it right, a lot more people would see the story for what it is rather than the localization that got in the way. Thank you so much for breaking down and spelling out the story here as I think I've gained some insight I haven't had before due to some connections you've drawn like how GUN operates.
Localisations in the series were always the worst. Like, not even only japanese to english. It sometimes feels like the translators barely understood english when I read the german translation. Either that, or they just decided that wording is not important when it definitly is, that is why we write to begin with.
A lot of people simply guess that a ton of people were killed by Perfect Chaos' attack on Station Square, but if you decide to talk to the townspeople right at the start of the Super Sonic story, before seeing Knuckles on Angel Island, it's HEAVILY implied that a ton of people moved away from the city following the Falling Missile Incident. Much like the citizens of Tokyo-3 nearing the climax of Evangelion, people began to realize just how dangerous the city was, and decided to flee while they could, leaving only the NPCs that have overarching sideplots, such as the kid waiting for her dad, and the girl obsessed with the Burger Shop guy. So, yes, a lot of people were killed, but far fewer than there would have been otherwise.
One last thing to say... Sonic Adventure is to Sonic what Paper Mario is to Mario. Continuing that analogy, I think it's funny that people say SA and SA2 are "too dark" for Sonic, yet no one batted an eye when the Paper Mario trilogy gave Mario deeper storytelling/lore and darker themes... up to and including demonic possession, ancient doomsday prophecies, evil cults, the nature of existence and morality, free will vs. determinism, the end of the world, the dichotomy of Heaven and Hell, suicide vs. the will to live, and all sorts of other stuff.
paper mario takes place in a parallel universe to most mario games and the characters are seperate, so idk if that is a good comparison. I would rather say that sonic adventure is like the first two mario and luigis where people could actually die onscreen if the plot wanted it to happen
@@lpfan4491 That distinction of "universes" didn't happen until Sticker Star (which, to me, personally, that game never happened. Same with Color Splash). In the first three Paper Marios, none of the characters were referred to as being "paper" and the whole thing was just an aesthetic, like Yoshi's Island looking like it was drawn with pastels. They made numerous references and direct callbacks to the "main" games (by "main," I mean any game that features the regular look for the series), and elements of the first three games even showed up in the "main" games (Goomboss being a boss in Super Mario 64 DS, the Star Spirits being the hosts of Mario Party 5, and Dry Dry Desert showing up in Double Dash!!, for instance).
@@lpfan4491 My feelings on Paper Jam are very mixed and I don't really count that one, either (though the other M&L games are great). That being said, all the "paper" stuff from Paper Jam was related to Sticker Star. None of the characters or elements from the first three games appeared. If anything, Paper Jam "confirmed" that Sticker Star and Color Splash are an alternate universe/non-canon. However, speaking of Mario & Luigi, I had forgotten their contribution (and it's a shame, because I think they're fantastic. Bowser's Inside Story is my personal favorite), so I'll slightly rephrase what I said. Sonic Adventure and Sonic Adventure 2 are to Sonic what Super Mario RPG, the first three Paper Marios, and the first four Mario & Luigis are to Mario.
According to an interview with Yugi Naka, the bio lizard was the prototype of the ultimate life form but the bio lizard was uncontrollable and dangerous they had to seal it away! After shadow was created, word somehow got out about the prototype and reached G.U.N, leading to the events of shadows tragic past!
In spite of this video being over two hours long, I've watched it 3 or 4 times, and I'd have to say it's one of my favorite TH-cam videos of the year. It's just so refreshingly earnest, thoughtful, and optimistic about not just this game or this game series, but about storytelling in general. I can't commend this video enough, and I greatly look forward to more video essays from you about games and stories you love. 👍
It's just horribly beyond reason how upsetting it is that these characters, and this story, is never expanded upon and Shadow is never as good ever again. The mood and the pacing and the storytelling are all excellent from pretty much every single possible imaginable angle. It's got so many details and designs and art direction and level design that tell us so much about this games connection with the previous titles and the rest of the world and how this is set up. It's got so much individualism for EVERY single character, Sonic, Tails, Knuckles, Rouge, Shadow and Eggman. They are all so absolutely amazingly expanded on or created, and that's not even going into the interpersonal relationships between them all. This is never seen again and so much of the shit hidden and implied in the story is just shoveled and never brought up again. I like Sonic Heroes from what I hear, I like a lot of things from many of the other games, but I will never stop being endlessly disappointed by how THIS was the best Sonic game we ever got.
To be honest, i also think that he was intended to survive. After all, he blinks as he dissappears in a flash of light. It could be that this flash is Chaos Control activating a final time, teleporting him somewhere. Total fanfic territory now: in this scenario, I imagine Shadow teleporting to some beautiful place on Earth with windswept green meadows n shit, because thats what Maria wouldve loved to see and Maria's final wish and love for Earth was on his mind in that moment.
I'll be honest, this was much more convincing than I initially thought when I saw the video title. I knew for a long time that a lot was lost in translation, but I didn't think it was that much. This is honestly a major reason why I tend to stick to a work that's as close to its original language as possible, Japanese or English or whatever. I also knew a good "meta" reason for why Shadow was mistaken for Sonic. Early concept art of the former is much closer to the latter's than what we got. The other explanation, such as GUN trying to cover things up, the chaotic and confusing situation, and Shadow displaying similar powers and traits to Sonic, do make it believable. Even early on, I didn't make a big deal out of the news having a closeup of Shadow as I considered that a case of the game reusing an earlier cutscene to save development time while we're not meant to think the image on our screen IS the image the public sees. I will say that the point that there aren't many hedgehogs in the story's world loses considerable credibility if you look at later games, but that's more on the latter games gradually becoming more and more inconsistent, so fair enough. One thing, though. I believe it's a bit hypocritical to use SA2's original dialogue to compliment it while using other games' faulty translations to diss them. For instance, Shadow's line in Heroes is more like "Is that so? Then you'll just have to disappear", fairly close to his depiction in SA2. I do have a lot of issues with the story across the games, but this ain't one of them. Another thing to keep in mind is that it isn't unreasonable of people to deem the story poor based on the localization/translation. That process IS supposed to present a work so that it gets its ideas and messages accurately in different languages (something which literal translation can hinder, by the way). That's to say Sega has had serious issues localizing Sonic games for decades, and they should improve.
I watched your rebuttal of ProJared's SA2 review on a whim since I tend to like his videos, but strongly disagreed with him on that one. Then I was so impressed, I just had to see your deep dives on the Adventure games. And I'm so glad that you made these! I've always been an adamant fanboy of these games, and thought I understood them perfectly. But you've given me such incredible new insights... I can barely even wrap my head around it all. I never would have realized that all of the stage themes were reflective of the characters' moods and situations for instance. And while I could feel how iffy the translations were at points, I never would have guessed at some of the characterization and deep lore I was missing out on. I just... I've always loved these games, but never truly appreciated their brilliance... Thank you.
I feel like ONE of the problems with every non-Mania Sonic game after Adventure 2 is that they feel like EVERY character has to be involved. It's like... Big, Gamma, Tikal, and Chaos being shoehorned into the story of Adventure 2, and Shadow and Rouge being in the story of Heroes. Or Silver being in any game after '06. Or everyone forgetting about the Master Emerald. If there's an Adventure 3, I think everything after Adventure 2 has to be ignored.
After all these years, decades even, I finally found someone who loves Sonic Adventure 2 more than I do.
Is that a challenge?
@@WardenKaz @Baba hey noobs, Quandale Dingle back again. My finger doctor baba mc bibi son has committed identity theft on me and thrown me in jail. I will be breaking out and committing tax fraud under her name. My sister Saundale Dingle is going to break the world record for the most cheese balls chugged in under half a second. Come back next week to see me eat a pound of raw cookie dough while sitting on a tight rope.
@@WardenKaz No.
@Koko210
I’m still looking…
@@lennygirlthetruesavvysavag2410what?
The 2D Sonic fans got all their fanservice. It's time for an Adventure and Adventure 2 remake.
True they got mania.Now adventurists deserve a new adventure game.
Sonic adventure 3 good story no cringe comedy and great gameplay
Damn Right
Sonic Mania was only half original.
Sonic Generations had mediocre physics and very platform-heavy gameplay.
Sonic Forces was Generations but worse.
@2071Johnny Sega just has stop being afraid of criticism and learn from it. Live and learn
"Animal Mascot platformers shouldn't have complex stories to them"
Klonoa: Do I LOOK like a joke to you?
Now say it with me guys
*MAKING FUN OF A GAMES STORY BECAUSE IT ATTEMPTS TO BE SERIOUS IS A SHITTY REASON AS TO WHY YOU THINK A GAMES STORY SUCKS*
@June thanks for understanding, not a lot of non fans do. (I am assuming you are a non fan, if I am wrong then sorry.)
It's like saying Kirby shouldn't be dark
@June stillcant believe klonoas grandad got friggin bombed and even klonoa had fake memories implanted in him and wasnt even real.
_"Animal Mascot platformers shouldn't have complex stories to them."_
Kirby and Klonoa: Are we a joke to you?
Saying "Sonic shouldn't have a serious story" is like saying "Fallout shouldn't care about lore" :\
Franchises need to be treated with respect. It pains me to see franchises i love go down a path that robs them of their identity. :(
People who say that *clearly* never played any of the Kirby games. If you take a look at the crazy deep amounts of lore that series has, you'd be shocked.
If a cutsy pink blob thing can have depth and serious story telling, why the hell can't a walking talking blue hedgehog have the same?
@@chaoschannel3428
Its because they try to compare Sonic to Mario, and fail to realise that Sonic was supposed to rival Mario not BE like Mario.
Marios main games aren't trying to be story or lore heavy. But they think Sonic should follow the same principle because of his happy go lucky genesis days.
the joke is, the mariogames with good stories are some of the more popular ones, a good story would force them to fix the gameplay of the 2d games that are stagnant and yet people also say story is worthless in mario. both that series and sonic are a sad example of fans being dumb af. just that mario gets slightly less hate than sonic(yeah, mario gets hate. people do not notice because it is never called the worst thing ever unlike what happens to sonic)
RevolvingWorld its funny cause the first 3 sonic games hav pretty serious stories imo
@@y2kjetters317 Sonic1 and 3,yeah. Sonic2...I don't really know. The game barely had a real story unless one counts the offscreen stuff like the circumstances of tails meeting sonic, eggman burning down woodzone and the 7th chaos emerald being sealed by the gods because a tribe that had all of them ended itself in one night due to abusing their power.
I don't think I've ever loved a TH-cam video talking about SA2's story as much as this one.
There's no mixing up English translation issues as problems with Maekawa's writing and I like how you've explained the more subtle details, especially foreshadowing and the connections between Shadow and Sonic. It's a shame the stories the series pumps out these days have about as much depth put into them as like, a Family Guy episode.
I like how the details in the story play into the extra backstory from the Japanese strategy guide. Particularly everything raising the question whether the Shadow in SA2 was a replica or the original.
(IMO, I LOVE the idea of the former!! The report says that Shadow wasn't 100% complete when he was ejected and the capsule was never found, which provides an arguably more suitable subject than the Biolizard for the "original data" he mentions)
SA2 did far better than SA1 did at implementing those details. SA1 left out a lot of the Echidna backstory in-game, which is why you get people screaming about how the mural at the bottom of Lost World could exist and stuff. Hell, it didn't even give you the order of Tikal's flashbacks.
I noticed some of Hero intro's textures are broken in the vid: That's caused by pak files not being able to read uppercase characters. The converters should take care of it in the latest SA Tools, but you can also rename the textures yourself. E0011texture, E0118texture and E0122texture have the same issue.
(PS: Gerald's diary is what explains there being a sealed prototype to Knuckles)
Thank you so much for the kind words! The issues in the cutscenes were actually caused by a mod I was using at the time called "Dreamcast cutscene textures".
@@RubyofBlue Ooh. I don't recommend just having DC textures if you're looking for best quality, when it comes to cutscene textures SA2B isn't as clear cut as it is with SADX.
Sure, SA2B does suffer from the quality loss from changing formats (especially textures with Alpha) but there's quite a few that are higher quality in that version, like the Chao in Space billboard when Sonic meets Shadow. It happens more with larger textures (256x256+) than smaller ones.
A lot of the (not-tiny) cutscenes have lower quality textures in every version, so to find the best quality ones you have to find the best version of that texture, which is usually in a smaller cutscene or among the gameplay textures. For geometry it's usually a stage, but characters (other than Shadow I think) have higher quality textures in cutscenes than gameplay.
Is the info from the Japanese strategy guide uploaded online anywhere? Also what's this about a prototype knuckles?
Even as someone who doesn't like Family Guy, comparing the stories of Meta Era Sonic to Family Guy is an insult to Family Guy.
Ruby of Blue
I love how you perfectly explain the story soooooo Well,
I’m curious though, how would you rewrite Sonic Heroes if you could?
The game is fine to me and I like it, Metal Sonic returns was Awesome!
And the Introduction of E-123 Omega is really Cool,
so I’m Interested in knowing how you would change it?
(Thank you for reading.)🙏
Holy shit, the reveal of the Lizard's roar FLOORED me, I had no idea things went this deep down the rabbit hole.
Pssh, and they say there's no such thing as a correct opinion.
With today's internet, there can only be the right opinion, or backlash.
but there is something like a wrong opinion like 1 + 1 = apple
Where are you are you there?
You’re on the internet, opinions don’t exist
@@M3rtyville No, that's right. 2 + 2 = fish as well.
“Pumpkin Hill could’ve been home to a cult.”
Yeah, a cult that doots the theme endlessly.
Lmao
Snapcube
@@Romanode_ Did somebody said Shadow?
It's either that or getting tilted at the towers
do-do, do do do doo-doo doo do do-do
Man, this was an eye-opening experience for me. I've always enjoyed SA2's story, but over the years holes in it popped up the more I revisited it. But the direct translation plus your own inferences really helped clear things up for me. I actually never knew anything about the possibility that Shadow wasn't the original or it's implications, I always thought that was just a line to foreshadow the Biolizard. Hell I didn't even know Gerald repressed his memories, or that his journal actually showed him slip into insanity instead of just immediately becoming a genocidal maniac. As much as I love the english dub, I'm shocked at how much information was lost in the localization. Thank you for this, it's really given me an even greater appreciation for Sonic Adventure 2. Especially as the current direction of the series' narrative and characterization grates on me more and more.
Oh yeah, to build upon the theory that Shadow is based on the Super Sonic mural on Angel Island, I think it's likely that the Biolizard was based on the Perfect Chaos mural. It helps address the common complaint that Gerald went from a giant lizard to a hedgehog as the base for the Ultimate Life Form.
There's also Maya glyphs on both the Eclipse Cannon control center/core, as well as around the cannons core area in the Rouge, Knuckles, and Sonic segments.
I like the idea that Gerald found those two murals and was like "Okay, there's two animal-like figures here, and I want to create the ultimate life form. This hedgehog-looking thing seems to be fighting against the machine that looks like me, so I guess I'll start with the giant lizard-thing instead. If that doesn't work, _then_ I'll try basing it on hedgehog."
@Hideyoshi Kinoshita "You ugly prototype"
Shadow actually says this.
@@MxPokirby hate to be that guy but gerald never wanted biolizard to be giant and animalistic. He had always intended a, lets say, compact creature with a human level intelligence. Biolizard was a failure; he was actually a small creature at the start and showed promise but he just kept growing and didnt develop any intelligence. Its all written in the article rouge shows for like three second in the confrontation scene so i dont blame anyone for missing it but thats what i love about sa2 - it invites you to solve some mysteries by yourself instead of hitting you over the head with infodump.
Who else loves Eggman themes?
Man, that was:
Good,
Nice,
Great,
Jammin',
Cool,
Radical,
Tight,
Awesome,
Extreme (and most important)
Perfect!
ULTIMATE
that was to good
Good!
Great!!
AWESOME!!!
OUTSTANDING!!!!
AMAZING!!!!!
aaaahhhhhh you slick bastard lol
Nice nice indeed
Whenever people call SA2 a bad game, I think of this channel and it reminds me that some people are just blissfully ignorant of what a masterpiece it really is. The same people saying it's "outdated" or "aged poorly" are the same people that praise OOT or Majora's Mask when they suffer the same or even worse problems in some cases.
Yeah, people generally dissing a game just because of a certain quality that they do not like. This game is awesome and very fun. I was always marveled how this game’s levels were out of this world. Something that was out of my wildest dreams . The mech and treasure hunting stages where fun. Those are the stages that I’m really good at . Playing someone who was not Sonic was interesting and wonderful experience. The game respects the characters that we know and love . So , this is one of the best sonic games ever made in my book.
Don't forget Super Mario 64. Even if they did, they wouldn't take OOT and MM as severely as Sonic cause "Sonic is always bad".
I think when Rouge says she got something better, she means friends. They've overcome incredibly disastrous odds together and experiences like that form lasting bonds. Plus she seems shallow and obsessed with material riches throughout the game. I don't really think she's someone who had friends before SA2.
This is now officially my favorite video on TH-cam. A true masterpiece.
GOAT vid.
Idk, I think it's between this and "Waffle falling over"
Didn't expect team APS here
Yes
Team APS?! The people I’d expect least to be in this comment section.
SA2 might be goofy at storytelling, especially in the localized version, but I'll take it any day over the shitty self-deprecating humor of the modern titles where you can't have five minutes of tension without Sonic looking to the camera and saying something like "Who writes this stuff?"
Writers that know nothing of the franchise.
Amen to that. This is why I'm glad SEGA has got rid of Pontac and Graff. These writers were honestly terrible and don't know anything about Sonic. Now, we need a competent writer who knows the story-telling very well (I hope it's Shiro Maekawa!).
I like to compare SA2 with Devil May Cry 3, because of how similar they are in how they have this hocky yet utterly earnest and sincere approach to storytelling. Heck even the rivalry with Sonic and Shadow plays out somewhat similarly to that of Dante and Vergil.
@@JapanFreak2595 Amusing, since SA2 came out several years before DMC3, yet no one really takes Shadow seriously as a rival character anymore.
@Dread StarZ The story isn't even that bad, the worst stories I've seen are from Free Riders, Colors, Lost World, Boom: Rise of Lyric, Forces, and even Team Sonic Racing.
Rouge has echolocation. That’s how she can find the gems!
shit that actually makes sense
Sometimes we just forget that the Sonic cast are unique creatures with special and natural abilities
I always wondered how she can find the master emerald shards.
@Dennis Raid Some one doesn't remember how echolocation works.
@Dennis Raid Idk maybe the same as other rock emitted sounds. Since the Chaos Emeralds and Master Emerald have incredible chaos power, maybe they emit unique waves like no other gems or rocks.
"I'll watch one more video before I go to bed"
This was the video, and I had not realized a whole-ass 2 hours had passed.
...Something that only just caught my attention. "Sigma-Alpha 2 Heading due south over the city." at the start of the Hero Story. Literally saying that SA2 is starting there. Can't believe it took me so long to see it.
“We’re en route and everything’s good so far.”
“This is control tower, receiving your transmission. Care to clarify your status of captured hedgehog?”
“That’s a 10-4!” (Police/Military code for “Understood,” “Good,” “Acknowledged,” and oh so popular: “Affirmative!” Which essentially means “we’re good!” Which is hella ironic considering the next part of that scene XD)
and now i too want to kill myself.....
@@victorhale And then Sonic breaks free, but surprisingly SA2 is still good to go.
I am SEEN. I am VALIDATED. THANK YOU for saying what needs to be said, I COMMEND you, good sir!!!
I've been periodically replaying this game since 2002 and you brought so many new things to my attention that I had never even noticed! Everything about this analysis is just so in-depth and well done, and I'm just feeling so jazzed about this game all over again!!
I'm done making self-deprecating jokes about liking SA2, aight, we done with that scene. It's good, it's great, fuck ya chicken strips.
Something I hear discussed alot is, how did Gerald go from a prototype of a Lizard type creature to a Hedgehog? I believe the answer is that the Biolizard, the prototype of the ultimate lifeform was based off of Perfect Chaos. You shortly mentioned how Gerald went to Angel Island and the Mystic Ruins at 1:49:20. Perhaps the 1st place he went to was the Mystic Ruins and he found the mural on the wall showing Perfect Chaos.
Chaos was shown to absorb the chaos emeralds' power and was a literal immortal God of Destruction. We 100% know this is knowledge Gerald could have found, due to SA1 where Eggman knows this exact info from artifacts he found. If that isn't enough, we find the Biolizard in game is by the shrine of the Emeralds, the exact same place Chaos guarded. Not to mention Chaos looked alot like a lizard/reptile creature in his final form! Chaos would also grow and change size when fed emeralds, the same way the biolizard kept growing. Plus Strangely enough would become upset and lose control when using the power of the emeralds like Perfect Chaos did. There is just way to many coincidences for this to be by chance.
To go either further Perfect Chaos was defeated by a hedgehog using the power of the emeralds! It just goes to show if someone found this out, they would immediately go from designing a copy of Chaos to a copy of Sonic. Now I don't think there was any way of Gerald to know that a Hedgehog beat Chaos, however perhaps when the Biolizard, the copy of Chaos was failing him; He found the mural of Super sonic on the wall of Angel Island and actually successfully created the ultimate lifeform based of it.
Nice theory.
@@ktn342 thanks. :p
You are a fucking genius and im angry i have never picked up on Gerald creating a hedgehog as a possible measure against the Biolizard, despite loving SA universe, goddamn.
I was just happy to go "ULF just means immortal intelligent lifeform, its doesnt matter what form the prototype was taking and why Shadow is a hedgehog, it could be completely random move on Gerald part who probably had a lot of other prototypes at least in his blueprints and hedgehog just was a thing that worked".
The canonical reason for it was actually explained in a strategy guide and it’s actually a deeper story plot that I wish was talked about more in the actual game:
info.sonicretro.org/Sonic_Adventure_2_-_The_Truth_of_50_Years_Ago...
that's awesome and all, but Chaos' original form resembled the Hedgehog physique as well. He could have also discovered Chaos' original form.
Huh. sounded better in my head. None of these theories sound right tbh
I really love Rouge and Shadow’s friendship in sonic o6. When Omega goes into the future and finds that he was the one who re-sealed shadow when the world grows to fearful of him and Rouge promises that no matter what happens she will always stay with him. That was sweet. As is the conclusion where he fights off mephiles telling him that he’s gonna fight and protect the world no mater what it dose to him. I feel that perfectly fits Shadows role as a servant to hopes and dream if a ideal world.
I also recommend the comics. Archie or IDW, they are the ones to go to for a sonic story with meat on its bones. And the comics also do a good job using these characters affectively.
Shadow's story in 06 is legit good. It's what convinced me that bringing Shadow back is worth it, because he's important to the cast of the Sonic series because he provides a unique perspective on the world. 06 kinda salvaged Shadow's character from Heroes and StH and solidified Team Dark as an iconic trio.
Ruby of Blue I never realized how much I hated sonic heroes plot until you kinda showed us what we lost. I still like some of the interaction. One part that stick out was after sonic’s team fights team dark and during the next level the discuss it a little a Knuckles jokes “maybe it was the G H O S T of Shadow” just to spook out Tails. And I really really like Omega. He’s a cool guy and is a interesting dark parallel to shadow. As someone that goes against his creators wishes. Which could be a cool other parallel to Metal Sonic but for some reason are never meaningfully connected as mirrors or contrast what kind of writing is that?!? But yeah thanks for making me think harder about sonic heroes. Thank I hate it. Lol
Infinite Octopaw
I think Sonic Heroes was fine,
Not every story has to be complex,
Sometimes it’s needs to take a breath,
I like Sonic Adventure 2 storyline I really do,
And it did Introduce & Brought back my Favourite Characters E-123 Omega & Metal Sonic,
(Thank you for reading.)🙏
@@RubyofBlue A simple solution to Knuckles's problems in Heroes (and Riders and 06) would be to use Amy as the power character of Team Sonic instead, it would make more sense for her to be in Sonic's company than him. This would also mean that Team Rose would be completely scrapped but they didn't contribute much to the story so it wouldn't be that big a loss, same goes for the rival battles (the characters start fights for flimsy reasons) in general. Shadow's own games story had to bend to the will of the stupid progression system so it would be easy to wright a proper story for it without it. 06 would just need more properly defined rules for it's time travel (like you can't encounter your past self or else you would cancel yourself out of existence. Also the removal of characters like Knuckles for example because the story of 06 has nothing to do with the master emerald. I don't mind Heroes story and I think 06's narrative isn't bad (for a first draft because there were clearly things that needed to be ironed out) but I can understand your disappointment. 06 made Shadow my favorite character and it is a shame to see him and all the other characters reduced to either cardboard cutouts or functions like how Knuckles is the power type regardless of whether or not it makes sense.
I personally thought about how to fix the story of shadow the hedgehog without losing much and it ain't easy. I would not want to scrap the progression system, so there would essencially more if-s in the rewrite than in the code of a noobprogrammer. I do have an idea for an alternate noncanon storymode(yeah, shadow is destined to have 95% of it's content be non canon) tho where there would only be dark and hero-routes and it would be the story of the characters end basicly. the idea is built around the unused song all of me btw.
* slow clap erupts into a full crowded room standing up and applauding *
identity theft
"ThAt's NoT SOniC"
Me: Okay......yeah, but how many anthropomorphic Hedgehogs that run super fast, that collect rings and chaos emeralds do you know of???
Two, but I think Amy will get there when she's older. Silver might his similar speeds but he doesn't bother to run.
@@Twilord_ "doesn't bother to run"? Have you ever played Sonic Rivals 1 or 2?
@@x-mighty7602 I didn't own a PSP. Is Silver actually as fast as them in that without hovering off the ground?
@@x-mighty7602 he hovers, and silver is far in the future GUN doesn't know silver.
@@Twilord_ Yes, he is.
I really wish furture Sonic games had Sonic portrayed like this. The difference between how Sonic acts in the Adventure era and the Modern era is the difference between someone who is bold and someone who is smug.
It's not even just smug, after the SECOND voice actor change, Sonic became incredibly arrogant and childish. He went from actually cool to being kid friendly Deadpool. It feels like the new writers had never actually played a Sonic game before, and you can especially see this with characters like Shadow who is essentially a Vegeta clone now, Tails being a total coward, and Knuckles having the IQ of a toddler. I love Colors and Generations and actually like Lost World, but they've totally raped all the characters personalities and previous character development arcs except for probably Amy.
It's funny how every time sonic's VA changes,his personality changes.
@@broom2839
To me Jason is the worst,Ryan made Sonic sound Natuarlly cool,and Roger sounds like a relaxed man,Jason sounds like He's trying to be so cool.
Aryan Descendant I can understand that case in terms of Jason's early years, but I strongly disagree in terms his later years (especially Unleashed and Black Knight)
@@dbzsonic1069
Oh yeah,I don't like his early years,where he tried to hard to be cool,however later years,he turned down.
This video is an absolute masterpiece man. I love your passion for SA2 and most of all I love the way you fully explain the entire story to such an extreme level of detail.
It’s safe to say that I’ll be using this video a lot to help debate and debunk a lot of the misconceptions surrounding this story.
I never thought to analyze the lyrics in the songs in this game. It's brilliant. Love seeing how it all ties together and connects. Awesome video. It just increases my love for SA2
They should throw out everything after Adventure 2 and pick up where the story left off with a proper Adventure 3.
And make the canon even more of a mess? Why not just make everything after Unleashed non-canon (and redo 06's story) because it doesn't make sense with the rest of the canon?
@@charliekahn4205 Dude, did you not read my comment?
"Throw out everything after A2 and make A3."
Throw out. As in retcon. As in strike from canon.
How the hell does that make the canon more of a mess? It literally does the opposite. What was your logic here?
@@RichterTheRat Because it would separate the Adventure canon from the Modern canon, creating a total of at least four.
@@charliekahn4205 No, modern canon wouldn't exist, like Sonic Boom, dmc: Devil May Cry, or the Rob Zombie Halloween movies.
You'd pick up where Adventure 2 left off with Adventure 3 then jump off from there. Meaning Heroes, StH, 06, Unleashed, Colors, Lost World, Generations, Forces, etc. None of it happened.
They really should. They made such a mess now it’s such a disappointment. I at the moment consider every 3d game except shadow 05 canon. Sonic 06 technically never happened as well but the event did happen before being erased. Colors is not canon, generations is (makes a mess though) lost world and forces are definitely not canon. I think it would of been better if they kept shadow dead, he was only good in 06 and even then he was still to silent and shy but his actions did speak for themself. I would like shadow around if they based him off the Archie comics, he is exactly represented well then.
I really do believe that Sonic 06 is the reason they wont make another adventure style game, but i fully believe that if they get people on the team that understand the SA games and work together to make a true SA3 that it could be done. Mania was made by people that love the 2D games so I fully believe this could be a thing. The problem is that Sonic Team really doesnt seem to get it anymore. IMO the worst parts of Sonic Mania were things like it being tied to Sonic Forces. The team didnt want to make a game full of remade levels, they wanted a brand new 2D Sonic game. Its like Sega doesnt understand there own character and its just surreal.
I also want to point out that I am very much sick of the boost games at this point. I like them enough but I honestly feel like im buying the same game with a different coat of paint. Say what you want about SA1,2, Heroes, and 06, they felt like very different games to me, with SA2 being the peak of content for a Sonic game. Generations has a lot of it too but SA2, to me, is the Sonic game with the absolute best replay-ability and the most things to do. Its also very challenging a lot of the time to A rank a mission. S Ranking missions in boost games are a friggen joke now with maybe 1 level being slightly challenging if your lucky, but it does say alot when I pop in SA2 again and find myself really working to get the A ranks despite me already 100%ing this game quite a bit of times.
What I think should happen is that Sega should bring people on that know and love the SA games, get them to make an SA style game the same way Sonic Mania was a 2D style game, and see what happens. I dont know how it would go now a days though with people bashing these games left and right now and trying to drag these games in the mud. I can only hope something like that happens though.
Wrong. Unleashed was originally gonna be SA3 before they decided to focus more on Sonic. And that game had a pretty good plot. Colours onwards, the stories and characters got butchered. And S Ranking is definitely not a joke in Unleashed. It has the same Rank Principles as SA2 and 06. Colours onward though, S Ranks are a joke.
I think they know that the adventuregames and similar sidegames are superior,but they have a destinct fear of the past from the bashing that sa1-shadow received in the recent years and from the financial failure 06 was. unleashed was the last adventure game(its japanese name is actually world adventure) and people hated everything that had to do with the werehog. then they just released black knight to give the edgy fans their final fix and went on to make colors. it is kinda sad how much the series lost its backbone really.
@@awesomeguy2009 It's interesting how the game started off as Adventure 3 while 06 was still being made.
My guess is they were in the early stages, then they saw Sonic 06's reception and tried to get away from it.
Which meant killing Adventure 3 off I guess, because 06 became an argument trump card for those who disliked the Adventure games.
@@awesomeguy2009 In Colors, you mostly revisit levels and abuse color bonuses to boost your score. It's not about learning the best path through levels and balancing out speed and defeating enemies so much that it's finding the one way you're supposed to get S Ranks, which isn't skill-based.
@@AkameGaKillfan777 S Ranks are super easy in Colours but at least it takes effort. S Ranks in Generations and Forces are too easy in general.
Beautifully done - allowed me to finally share in something deeply meaningfully and genius within this game and these characters. My son has always known about the brilliance in this - but I always saw it as a kid game with cartoony characters and I've missed all of this until tonight. But tonight I got to watch this with my son and bond with him by being able to see what he's been trying to explain for years since he was a little kid with way more insight even as young boy then I ever knew - and I always knew he was a brilliant - I just didn't know Sonic and Shadow and this whole universe was too. Kailen - I finally get it.
Awwwww your comment is so wholesome :3
@@minervasucicorbegoso2097incredibly wholesome
Seriously, how could Eggman come from a Big bad, to a Big dope! How could Shadow come from the Ultimate life form, to the Ultimate edge lord! And Tails come from the brave side kick, to the side kick who can barely even stand on his own two feet without Sonic as a crutch! Really Sega, you messed up on something so simple as keeping characters consistant? I'm truely dissapointed in a company that over the past year, I've grown so much respect for!
Sonic Team and SEGA have shown that they have had no clue what they're doing for years. They put the director of Generations in charge of Mario and Sonic at The Olympic Games 2014 and had somebody else come in to direct Lost World. After that, they used up THREE of the FOUR years they were given to make Forces and used three of those years to make a new graphics engine that doesn't even look as good as the original Hedgehog Engine, and then had THREE level designers work on the level design for three different characters in about a year. Those level designers also never worked on a Sonic game prior to Lost World, and one of them from what I understand had only ever worked on one of the Olympic Games spinoffs. It really starts to make you realize why over half of the stage locals are from past games, specifically the genesis title, and also why they're rarely over a minute in length. Of course that really only barely scrapes the surface of Sonic Team's/SEGA's fuck ups and doesn't even cover the garbage they've done before 2010, relating directly to games or other media.
This man's explanation of "Live and Learn" is so insightful and very well done. He does a great job of dissecting the lyrics while relating both real life issues and experiences that the cast of characters went through
It made me realize that live and learn is almost more of a poem than a song.
@@reinhardt5410 yes
12 years from my highlight of this game, and yet the music and the lyrics still hit home like I just finished the story. Such a gem
Ah, so it makes sense. While in custody, Gerald Robotnik modified Shadow's memories of his final moment with Maria, so that he would seek revenge against humanity, just like he wants, instead of willing to protect it. He made so that Shadow if set free, would grant his wish, and not Maria's.
This just shows how the poor English localization of this game really adds to the confusion around the story. This game's scenario already felt good despite some flaws and inconsistencies here and there but now that you've shown the intended version, in original Japanese, it looks so much better. Man, the nerve of them to go back to cringy writing and shallow storytelling in games like Colors and Lost World after the gem that was SA2's story. Thanks for making this video and setting things clear man; this game can definitely use some positivity!
Shadow never got out much, if at all. Maria was his only friend. Of course he'd take it too far if anything happened to her, his only happiness in life. Especially since she died right in front of him at the hands of GUN. I don't think his memories were modified, but I can accept it as just a what if theory.
@@knucklesechidna2124 According to the Japanese text of Gerald's diary, the professor did modify Shadow's memories. If not, then why would Shadow seek revenge against humanity if Maria's last will was for him to protect it instead?
Honestly, I kinda wish the Story was laid out slightly diffrently. The way it is currently, there are three diffrent versions of the event and none of them really make sence if we look really close. All three have GUN just shoot Maria because "eh, let's kill this girl" and the two versions shown in Shadow the Hedgehog do not even have Maria send shadow down. Not to mention, how did she even have the time to do that in the version shown in SA2 when they were shooting her down?
I would like it more if how shadow tells the story would be the fake memory given by Gerald and the SA2 Version would be the way his mind overwrote those memories with a blurry moment of Maria giving him her last wish because he was pretty close to her and the Version he remembers at the end of the game is just his mind correcting since amy remembers him that she would have never wished for revenge.
And shadow the hedgehog seemed to messed that part up saying Gerald wanted shadow to complete his purpose when in reality he wanted for humanity to die. Shadow 05 was such a missed opportunity.
@@nascarconnor1254 Well, at first gerald wanted good for humanity and then when he saw that everyone he knew and loved was killed in the event, including maria, he constructed the revengeplot. It would actually work well with shadow the hedgehog even....if the eclipse cannon did not get destroyed in SA2. That is kinda a continuityerror anyways tho since eggman canonically inserts the real emerald into the energyconsole instead of sonic inserting the fake.
The thing I like the most about sonic games is that they usually start out in a tropical paradise or city and end in a futuristic, sterile environment or space. It almost feels like most of the time in games sonic is trying to find ways to get into space since that’s usually where eggmans bases are located.
Watching this after Sonic Movie 2 and it’s just crazy that SA2 is about to be a blockbuster movie and I can’t wait
SA2's story along with Live & Learn is one of the deepest and most compelling stories about mental health ever told and this video helped me understand that back when it first came out, I already loved SA2 as a child and to find out that the story was this deep and meaningful was such an emotionally fun moment for me when I watched this vid for the first time back in 2020
The Sonic Adventure games had a strong balance between lighthearted and dark moments. Every other Sonic game story wise is either too simplistic with not much depth (Heroes, Colors, Generations, Lost World, etc), overly dramatic and too serious (Shadow, 06, Forces), or relied on visuals due to hardware limitations (Sonic 2 and especially 3).
Yet the Genesis games were epic too, at least 2 and 3 & Knuckles were.
I wasn't knocking the Mega Drive games. The fact that Sonic 2 and especially 3 could tell a coherent story with no dialogue is something I have massive respect for (not to mention the attention to detail when exploring Angel Island from one zone to another). If there was one thing Sonic did better than Mario from the start, it was storytelling. Dr. Robotnik coming super close to taking over the world at the end of Sonic 3 really gave the impression that he was learning from his mistakes and improving his villain act.
I will admit it's weird that Dr. Eggman went from world domination intentions to destroying one city in Sonic Adventure but then again he probably didn't have the money to build another Death Egg.
Exactly, and I also love how the Genesis games connect to the Adventure titles, as George Lucas would say, it rhymes. :)
@@knucklesechidna2124 I agree with you guys. With each genesis sonic game, Sonic team expanded on the storytelling. That's why mania was disappointing imo. Good level design, ost and controls but it just lacked overall substance. If anything, its story is behind Sonic 2 and is barely above sonic 1's level of storytelling.
I can't group Heroes with those other 3. Simplicity doesn't group with the over-light-heartedness. Heroes was as simple as it could get, but with using established roles. The characters were shallow but still in line with who they were in the Adventure games. As for Colors, Generations, and Lost World...I can't even begin to explain the lack of consistency with the characters in those games - not to mention the lack of relevant characteristics.
After watching this multiple times, I've gone to appreciate the older games. SA2 being the most appreciated. Because a common thing I've noticed and this is apparent in Jebtube's videos and how much you repeated it. The older games, mostly Sonic 1 2 3& Knuckles SA1 &SA2, they each build off each other. Game Apologist lightly remarks on this in his "Unapologetic Sonic 3 & Knuckles" video. To this day I still remember the stories of SA1, SA2, Sonic & The Secret Rings, and Sonic & The Black Knight the most. Anyway, I said all that to say I loved the video and I wish the older games could be played on the newer systems like the PS4. No, I'm never counting PS Now as a way to play them.
I just picked up Sa1DX and Sa2B ports on my xbox one , I'm told they run on the series x as well
Though DX is notoriously a bad port and so Is sa2b to an extent , it's still my preferred way to play given that I dont have a pc
I've just finished 100 percenting Sonic Adventure 2. You can guess what my favourite Sonic game is now.
Congratulations!! Im trying to do the same rn.
If I have one complaint. It would be how tedious it is to raise chao to win chao races just to get ten emblems. Aside from that (as well as a few frustrating missions), it was a blast.
Cool that's amazing. Sonic adventure 2 battle GameCube version is my favorite.
I'm guessing, Sonic Rush.
@@IGSA101 well i'm guessing mega man 8
You know looking back, I actually didn’t think about this before but you know what’s also an interesting parallel to SA1? Maria and Shadow. Let me explain: in SA1 who was devoted to Chaos and who was also devoted to protecting the Chao (innocent creatures) in SA1? Tikal. Similarly, Who was loyal to Maria? Shadow. If we compare Maria’s desire to protect the innocent people on Earth, to Tikal’s desire to protect the Chao and protecting innocent people from being pillaged and plunged by the echidnas, then you realize Maria standing up to G.U.N can also be a parallel to how Tikal stood up to her father for killing innocent people and not opening up their hearts, much like how the military refused to spare Maria and the others on the colony.
I absolutely enjoyed every second of this video. This game has been part of my life for 17 and a half years and is by far one of my most played games ever. I've most likely put in well over 1000 hours into it, and have familiarized myself with nearly every line of dialogue in the English release. The way you put into the words the amount of effort, the way the story was conveyed among other things was absolutely amazing. I've wanted to make a video on this subject for quite some time, but it looks like now I don't have to. I share the very same thoughts and opinions on this game. You've put everything into perspective from how well this games story is told and what needed and didn't need to be shown for an audience to understand the themes. Sonic Adventure 2 is a fast paced, heart wrenching work of art that deserves all the praise it gets. Well done, by far one of the best videos on this game to date. You've graciously earned yourself another subscriber.
"IT's ToO dARk fOR a SOnIc gaMe"
Yeah, It's not like the games had a tyrant enslaving animals to build a dictatorship or something.
Great analysis. For years SA2's story has been my favourite in the series. It has great action, funny moments that don't bog down the pace of the story and is genuinely heartwarming. All of the characters were very well handled in this story (except Amy, she doesn't really do much after prison Island and before the final story) especially Sonic, Shadow, Tails and Dr Eggman.
I think Sega misunderstood what made SA2's story work. SA2 earned its darker moments by building them up. Most importantly it focused on the characters themselves. I think this is where Shadow, 06 and Forces really missed the mark. Shadow The Hedgehog completely bastardized Shadow's character and was way too forceful at being dark. 06 tried to be dark and mysterious but failed due to boring characters and wasting time with repetitive plot points that go nowhere. Forces not geniene at all with its story. It doesn't build up its darker aspects and drops them within a second for an annoying joke and friendship speech.
If they want to do another serious story again the writers should think on how to actually fit the characters into the story and build it up. Both Adventure games start light on the tension before picking up. They could also do what Unleashed did and start dark but then ease the tension for the first few levels. What is most important is that they should genuinely commit to a serious story, make it interesting, earn the serious moments and get the characters right.
Amy has a good purpose in the story, helping Shadow realize Maria's wish. It's not as big a role as SA1, but to me it's just as important. This game is more story driven so they gutted Amy's gameplay for making both Hero and Dark gameplay exactly the same. But I'm okay with her being there in the story's cutscenes. At least they gave her a part. These days Sonic characters just cheer from the sidelines.
Why do you have such a problem with Friendship? You do know it's in adult medias too, right?
@@obd9660
The theme of freindship by itself is so boring and overdone, its really difficult to be done well, it can be included but it should have more unique messages within it. Even your basic power of freindship shonens like Naruto and One Piece have underlying messages that expand on it.
Why do you want a serious story? Couldn't it easily be boring or too complex for viewers to care?
@@obd9660 True, but the friendship speeches in Forces get a little forced. (Ha!)
I loved Sonic Adventure 2 before, but this analysis of the story makes me fall in love with this brilliant game all the more. Incredible.
I don't know who is saying the story is trash, and I don't even care.
This level of storytelling, lighting, voice direction, respect for the characters, and nuance... This is what's needed in a story, and this is what brings people back to this game. Yes, it has plotholes and gaps in knowledge, but this video has shown how easy it is to patch them up should this game be remade (well). And I have a new appreciation for Live and Learn, which I've always placed behind Open Your Heart--not anymore.
The world needs a Sonic Adventure 3.
I haven’t started watching yet but YASSSS QUEEN. Sonic had such good storytelling I HATE that we never get any anymore #bringsonicstoriesback
It's my first game that had a story to follow. I remember being so invested with the colourful cast of characters that I watched Sonic X and became a fan of the series!
What I love about Gerald's research when trying to create the ultimate life form is that Shadow and the biolizard are pretty much artificial versions of Sonic and Perfect Chaos it really explains a lot on how Gerald actually has been to Angel island and the mystic ruins trying to make his own scientific creation
Back when Sonic games had a more dark serious tone, but also keeping a perfect balance of it's light heartedly tone with a mixed batch of comedy.
Now all we get is, BALDY MC NOSE HAIR, POWER OF FRIENDSHIP, EGGMAN IS A JOKE. And so forth. I really wish they would go back and give Sonic game's not only the adventure style gameplay but also it's story.
I'll definitely take a 06 story again.
That mistaking shadow for sonic point makes a surprising amount of sense now that I think about it that way... except for Amy mistaking him for sonic (imo), she idolises and crushes on him.
As far as I'm concerned, no other game since 2 is canon to the universe of Sonic Adventure 1 and 2. The story was just too strong for it to be ruined by the new ones. I mean Shadow's death alone is so powerful that even 10 year old me knew better than to want him back because his story was tightly knit.
i gotta admit i was one of those people who didn't get how people can mistake shadow for sonic, but now you've made such a valid point,i totally understand it now!!
SA2 IS GOOD GAME. SA2 IS GOOD GAME. SA2 IS GOOD GAME. GIMME MORE SA2 PLOX THANK YOU.
Alright, but yeah, this game is a LOT better than other big name game critics have made it out to be. You have single-handedly proven it. Good job with your feature-length long reviews.
This review and his rebuttal review to Projared's review of SA2 really showed that the game really was a diamond in the rough in the modern day.
SA2 is not a good game.
It's not really a bad game either.
It's the definition of a mixed bag
@@Spamus not really. Its got a lot of good stuff in it making me think its great. But thats fine if thats your opinion
@@alfa01spotivo that's not a very thorough critique of the game tho.
And I just want to say that whether a game is actually "good" or not should not stop anyone from enjoying the game. If you like it, then more power to you
@@Spamus Yeah, try not to rub your opinions into other people's faces. Sharing opinions is fine, but your tone is just so annoyingly condescending. Also, game design is something that's subjective. To me, SA2's gameplay is 2/3 amazing, and 1/3 alright. The other aspects like story, art direction, post-game are all great too.
“What makes Sonic Adventure 2’s Story THE BEST?”
Because Snapcube made a fan dub of it where Eggman pissed on the moon.
No it is white phosphorus does he feel like a hero yet
Phew... what a wild ride these two reviews were, and I must say I wholeheartedly agree with everything you've said. The adventure games have received an incredible amount of hate, and your analyses show just how underserved this hate really is.
Those were real reviews, made by someone who is passionate and is not afraid of putting in a lot of work to really explain, in-depth, why these games are really good and what are their flaws. I couldn't enough stress the need to set the record straight about the adventure games: despite their flaws and a poor English localization, they fully deserve to be praised for their amazing gameplay and storytelling. Unfortunately, a bunch of angry reviewers who lazily put up a half-assed critique of games they likely didn't play for a long time tarnished SA1 and 2's reputation, but I really hope that passionate reviewers can bring some positivity and finally change some minds. Maybe then, we will finally get full-fledged remasters of SA1 and 2, and a Sonic Adventure 3. Thanks a million for taking the time to make an over three hours long analysis in defense of this amazing game.
i remember looking forward to this game on the sega. Dreamcast and i had it sonic adventure 2 was so much fun it has replayable game even the Game cube version was a blast from s.a 1 to s.a 2 they need to ether remake both Games or remastered them
From start to finish this video all together highlights what makes this game as great as it is while not glossing over it's flaws and inconsistencies. This was a joy to watch, thank you for this in depth analysis.
2:07:00 "With good gameplay and a good story you have an unforgettable experience" YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! SA1 and SA2 are perfect examples. 100% a good review!
I was watching this while going from my 175 emblems to 180 emblems and finished when you got to cannons core.
I think Sonic won the first fight hinted by Shadow’s exhaustion. Shadow and Eggman win the second rounds as hinted by the beginning of final story.
Sonic Adventure 2 is garbage because the ghosts gave me nightmares the first time I played, and they still freak me out. 0/10
Joking aside, I hate the ghosts but I appreciated this game and Adventure 1 a hell of a lot more once I played with Windii's translations. This gave me a bit of a deeper appreciation beyond that, though. Great video!!
Meteor Herd creates a cliffhanger and suspense within Sonic's storyline which you'd expect to be followed up on as soon as possible. It's really crafty.
Thank you, it was very well done.
2:04:19 That is the most interesting shit I've heard in a very long time. Insane. Great find !
You know I already loved SA2 even when people started hating the game after a certain reviewer did a half-ass review on it. I knew deep down the story did have lots of heart and thought put into it though yes, I will admit that I did think the usual seeming plot holes like the dumbness of Sonic being mistaken for Shadow, Sonic using the power of a fake Chaos Emerald, and many others but after hearing someone actually bring in some context about why these things actually aren't plot-holes, I can admit wrongness on my end. The only one that I wish had more context was how Amy managed to sneak onto Prison Island. See this is why it would've been if they had Amy be a minor playable character, they could've done one level for her where she's traversing Prison Island to get to Sonic's jail cell. I dunno, I think that would've been cool and would've played on her character from the first SA game showing that she really is trying to be more independent. But aside from that, I happily take back the other plotholes I bought into, especially people mistaking Sonic for Shadow because what you said is true, context is important in a lot of these cases.
Though I will say that even as a kid, I did catch on to the secret agent contacting the President's secretary was Rouge which I thought was clever as it hinted towards it without outright telling you. And I never played the game in Japanese but holy crap I can see why some people say the script was better than the dub. I do really like the English Voice Actors even if the acting wasn't perfect but seeing the Japanese script, I really wish they didn't change it and kept it straight though I think it's because of the usual "It's too dark for children!" thing but Eugh... Just why? The original script was so bloodcurdling in a lot places. I really was missing out haha. I'm also reminded how great Shadow was presented in his debut and it's such a shame his character was flabbergasted in the later games. In my opinion as much as I love the character, he should've stayed dead after SA2 as it would've cemented his legacy just like what happened to E-102 Gamma.
I know that it's the popular thing to hate on SA2 and say things like it really wasn't as good as we remember or thought but I just have to disagree. Yes it's true that many people praise this game but look at all it did, can you really be surprised that it garnered such a huge fanbase for it? With all the context put into the story when you actually think about it and how some of the gameplay quirks aren't as bad as you'd believe if you know practice the ins and outs of how it worked, the game truly was an experimental gem in the Sonic franchise that took risks and while not perfect, a great era for Sonic's evolution into 3D (before it all went downhill...).
Anyway amazing retrospective, probably one of the best videos on SA2 I've seen. :)
Out of curiosity who was the reviewer who started the trend of mocking the Sonic Adventure series? I've seen a number of videos detailing that same sentiment, but I didn't know it had any specific origin point. I always just figured it was a popular game that got recommended to people over the years, and as games in general got better the flaws in the Sonic Adventure series became more noticable. Well that, and a lot of online discourse being pretty toxic. But I'd be interested in seeing the original review that spawned all this, if for nothing more than to leave a thought-out rebuttal to the points raised.
@@0dayrepairs It was Arin from Game Grumps.
@Games oh god I hate that review.
@@misterhimura036 Game Grumps disliking a Sonic game? Wow, I didn't see that one coming . . .
The best part is they did say rouge was working for the president, shadow specifically said rouge got direct orders fro the president when he figured her out in the dub.
SA2 is literally my favorite Sonic game and I still wish Sonic Team can go back to do this type of story and presentation since the Adventure games are my favorite of the Sonic series no matter how people say crap about it because those were Sega's last hurrah on Dreamcast
Ruby, it would be awesome to hear you talk about Heroes-Shadow-S06. I have an all-new appreciation of these games after watching your streams and actually replaying Shadow because of you.
I just realized why I love the plot for kill la kill. It’s literally the plot of sonic adventure two with very similar characters
The adventure games, unleashed, and black knight are peak sonic storytelling imo. They all started out lighthearted, but got serious and got stakes as the game progressed. Something I noticed is that this has been a thing in the form of level aesthetic since the first game (compare green hill and scrap brain and you see what i mean), and each game afterwards expanded on that storytelling, with it truly taking off in Sonic 3&K. Even if the adventure games’ presentation aged horribly (even more so Adventure 1) they’re still amazing in story imo and expanded on everything from the classics.
“most aggressive enemy in SA2”
That’s not the artificial Chaos
24:20 to 25:00
The sonic series used to be so good at storytelling.
Missed a little detail that may or may not be foreshadowing at the start of the Dark story - when Eggman is awakening Shadow there's an Engrish-y inscription that reads: "Astronomers are concluding that monstrousblacks"
As far as Shadow being more brooding in Heroes and Shadow - it's kind of the point. Shadow has amnesia and has no idea who he is, why he is, or even IF he is. He has nothing but quesitons and no answers. He was more upbeat in Heroes and Battle but eventually it got to him and he finally had a lead in his own game, only for it to be thrown in the middle of a huge war between the humans and the Black Arms. After the events of Shadow, in '06 he was more in-tune to his appearance in SA2, but still not exactly the same as by that point he'd undergone a lot and his whole life and everything he thought he knew had been flipped upside-down many times, even with his new friends to hold him up.
monstrous blacks? well darn. I never thought that someone would find something in sa2 that links to StH.
I’ve always adored the Adventure games since I was super young and have been saddened for a long time by how many people have written them off as bad games with bad stories. the love that you have for this game shines clear through your words and it’s just so refreshing to hear it made me tear up several times. this is a wonderful video, man, I’m so glad I watched it.
You know a story is done right when you almost cry at someone RECAPPING the ending 😂 this game got me in the feels so bad that I get residuals every time I revisit it
One thing I always thought was really cool about Knuckles' stages is that they get progressively spookier with Pumpkin Hill, Aquatic Mine, and Death Chamber, and it culminates in the King Boom Boo boss fight as a send-off to the spookiness, and Meteor Herd is much more free, literally and figuratively.
I miss this shonen anime style writing Sonic games used to have, it fit the series like a glove
SA2 and Black Knight had the best stories in the series
unleashed had a good story too but i vastly prefer black knight and sa2
They had the same writer.
@@ChiefMedicPururu I know lol
@@ChiefMedicPururu i already miss him
@@nyhtfall8037 He's sadly probably not returning.
They're adapting SA2 into the films, kinda excited
This video is great, but it sadly reminds me of how much people like to crap on Sonic game's stories even when they're at their best.
Even when these games were new all you would ever hear is people (who most of the time had no idea what they were even talking about) complaining. Always idiotic stuff like....
"Humans don't belong in a Sonic game!"
"Why isn't it set on Planet Mobius?"
"These characters suck! The Freedom Fighters like Sally Acorn are a million billion SQUILLION times better than these Lame-o Freaks!"
"That's not Robotnik! He supposed to have a pointy head, glowing red eyes, and a robotic arm just like he did in the old games!"
Or the worst one of all were the people who would be frantically bashing buttons during every cutscene going "YEAH YEAH, BLAH BLAH, WHATEVER! CHRIST LET ME JUST GET ON WITH THE GAME! NO ONE PLAYS SONIC GAMES FOR THE STINKY STORY!"
And Sega have sadly taken that to heart and have just decided not to try as hard anymore!
Sega really needs to stop listening to the people who shit on Sonic games for stupid reasons! Especially in terms of story! Sonic having a good story is what used to make his series great! If people say "No one plays Sonic games for stories!" then they're NOT Sonic fans!
People who say this is too dark probably assume Sonic is only for toddlers like Thomas The Tank Engine, Teletubies or Barney The Dinosaur.
Nintendo, even with all of their kid friendly games, had some truly deep and engaging experiences. Nobody judges Nintendo for being too dark in their epic games. Why Sonic? Isn't Sonic supposed to be the more mature alternative to Mario? The Super Mario RPG games (Including Paper Mario and the Mario and Luigi series) were epic despite being based on a series of games that was very cartoony and kid friendly. then there's the Legend of Zelda series, the Metroid series, the mother trilogy, the Golden Sun trilogy, ect. Why is it ok when nintendo does it, but not Sonic? Sega has tons of other great epic games like Skies of Arcadia, Panzer Dragoon series, Golden Axe series, Streets of Rage series, House of the Dead series, ect. I think that Sonic Heroes was a lot of modern gamer's "first Sonic" and as such, they expected it to be that way from then on. So when Shadow the Hedgehog and Sonic 06 came out trying to rectify it for older fans, they failed miserably. It was Sega constantly trying to fix what aint broke while misunderstanding fan complaints.
Knuckles Echidna That last part seems to be what they’ve been continuing with how bad the writing in Forces was.
@@knucklesechidna2124 "Why's it okay when Nintendo does it, but not Sonic?"
I think it's people being shallow, assuming "Ooh, that looks like something my precious little infant will love.", do you know what I mean?
Jesus that was in depth and well-made, bravo dude.
Also that biolizard voice being their screams... holy shit. The IMPLICATIONS
You nailed it with the series breakdown at the end. Also the bit of implication that happens in the Japanese dialogue is mind bending.
I got an answer! It's the only game that tries at a story.
7:49 Sonic and his friends probably wonder why there was never a Chao in Space 3, and why the Chao movies went downhill like they did. (haha)
Edit: Hmm, and Dark Super Sonic (from Sonic X) and Shadow don't look too different.
Amy in SA2: Don't wanna marry me, Sonic? Tch, fine!
Amy in later games: Marry me! No means yes, Sonic!
If there's ever a "Sonic Adventure 3", Shiro Maekawa needs to come back to write it.
There was finally a Chao in space 3 in generations, in Crisis city. Too bad 06, and crisis city technically never existed. So chao in space 3 never existed.
@@revolvingworld2676 I thought Chao in Space 3 in Generations was in Speed Highway?
*cough* sonic x is stupid, I want more stories that are focussed like an actual adventurestory and not an adaptation not making sence *cough*
@@andrix7777 no. they did put the "Chao in Space" ads in Speed Highway, "Chao in Space 2" ads in City Escape [look well, you may find the billboard] and Crisis City has the "Chao in Space 3".
Please notice I only talk about generations here
The last month, I've found a bunch of videos about people loving SA2. I've only mostly heard the hate sonic games gets. It's nice to hear others show love to my favorite character, and probably my favorite game in the catalogue
Excellent, excellent video, Ruby. You did an utterly fantastic job analyzing the masterpiece of storytelling that is Sonic Adventure 2. These are all things I picked up on even with the faulty English translation, and whenever I had brought these things up to other people, they were in awe, thinking that SA2 just had some silly plot or something. My personal take on the final line is that it feeds into the "natural vs. artificial" theme that ran throughout the story. Shadow (who I consider to be the real thing and not a copy) was designed by Prof. Gerald to be the Ultimate Life Form. However, Sonic is naturally the Ultimate. He may not be immortal like Shadow, but he exceeds Shadow in all other regards. It's Sonic's own willing determination and dedication to the good of humanity, plus his natural abilities, that make him the Ultimate. In this case, Shadow is the Copy, despite him being made to possess those qualities. We'll have to see what Maekawa would have to say about this, though, in case anyone asks him. It is a legitimate curiosity. If Sonic is indeed Gerald's final creation, then that would make his relationship to Dr. Robotnik all the more personal.
All that being said, I do agree that it's a shame that Heroes took a dump all over character development instead of letting it continue. I would've loved to see Knuckles and Rouge deepen their relationship, and I would've loved to see them continue a character arc that had been building up since Sonic 1 on the Genesis - Dr. Robotnik's quest of revenge on the world for ruining his family's name. SA2, to me at least, made it clear that Robotnik saw the errors of his ways thanks to the very real implications of Gerald's insane plot to destroy all of humanity, himself included. Once he came to grips with all of this, Robotnik had a change of heart and helped Sonic and co. stop his grandfather's program. It is during this ordeal and the aftermath he has with Tails that Robotnik put his past behind him and reformed for good. Cue a proper version of Heroes, where Metal Sonic is none too pleased to hear about his master being a changed man and takes matters into his own hands...
EDIT: I'm actually fine with Knuckles being how he is in Heroes, and I actually find it being good character development for him (though I would've preferred him being a bit more serious). In SA1, Knuckles was the rigid, no-nonsense guardian of the Master Emerald. He's bound to his duty, with no hope of escape. However, we later find out that the reason why he's guarding the Emerald (and why Angel Island was floating in the first place) was to ensure that Chaos was never released. With Chaos set free and ultimately redeemed, Knuckles's job is now moot. By the time SA2 takes place, Knuckles has voluntarily taken it upon himself to guard the Emerald out of respect for his lineage, but he doesn't need to be so OCD about it. He's finally free, and he's likely done some treasure hunting in the process to learn more about his people. While he's still serious, you can tell that a big load has been taken off his shoulders. He's smoother and more relaxed. Honestly, I wouldn't have minded seeing Knuckles wearing his get-up from the OVA in SA2 to reflect this change.
Honestly, they really should have gone the route of eggman being less evil than before. Like, I can see him falling back on it in certain games(like let's say the modern era specifically), but he should have been more ambiguous outside of that. Like, they could have done a plottwist in unleashed where his shenanagans basically helps everyone. Having the planet be split could just prevent dark gaia from awakening and he gets his robotnikland as a sideeffect. Maybe have him as a red herring in rush who just supplies eggman nega with resources and helps him with technological concepts because he has no idea what the guy is doing with them.
@@lpfan4491 The way I see it, Robotnik could've been doing good in Heroes and Shadow the Hedgehog, but then in Sonic '06, Mephiles tempts Robotnik and causes him to briefly return to his evil ways. It's only after seeing all the destruction that he's helped cause (ultimately leading to Sonic's supposed death) that Robotnik realizes what he's done and truly puts his old ways behind him. With Robotnik's full redemption, there can be room for new villains and new possibilities in general.
The thing I love are the Big the Cat cameos. They really pull the game together.
I disagree about the post SA2 stories being bad, until Shadow-06 (except Riders) and Sonic Colors-Forces (except Mania).
Dang... I already loved Sonic Adventure 2 to bits as my favorite Sonic game, and one of my most favorite videogames of all time, up with Banjo-Kazooie, Metal Gear Solid 2: Sons of Liberty, Devil May Cry 3: Dante's Awakening, Ratchet & Clank: Going Commando, Doom, and Persona 5, but this just takes everything to a whole new level.
I feel like Maekawa Shirou is someone I would *really* love to meet.
This is a stunning analysis of the themes and motifs present in this game as well as how they extended and built off of the canon established in the previous games in the series. I especially like how you used the original dialogue instead of the more clumsy English translation to confirm your points. You've brought out a lot of the more subtle elements and hints in the story and exposed them pretty well and I'm floored by the amount of research that must've gone into this, aside from the writing and pacing of a video that's over 2 hours long. Not a single second was wasted.
I'd love to see more analysis videos from you like this; you clearly know your stuff well beyond the superficial elements.
I assume they mistook Shadow for Sonic with the words, "Hedgehog moving at the speed of sound," not thinking it necessary to add the blue aspect since... that alone was an amazing feat. In fact, that kind of ties into the theme of Shadow and Sonic's imposter plot. Though, bringing up the transformation aspect is a really good point.
To be fair, you have to have a pretty high iq to understand sonic adventure 2.
The plot points are extremely subtle.
Another reason I think Sonic canonically wins against Shadow is that, it would make more sense, if your intention is to destroy the Earth, to just have the cannon fire on the Earth automatically. Making it fall is only a good idea if the cannon is damaged somehow.
A fairly long video that perhaps could use some brevity, but ultimately it's *VERY* well written. I think a major reason people don't look closely at the story of SA2 is because of the poor localization that muddles several plotpoints and that fact that a major payoff from Shadow isn't even heard by players who are rushing to finish off the boss in 5 minutes. Really though, if they remade the game and localized it right, a lot more people would see the story for what it is rather than the localization that got in the way. Thank you so much for breaking down and spelling out the story here as I think I've gained some insight I haven't had before due to some connections you've drawn like how GUN operates.
Ha, now if there's one thing I'm good at, it's not brevity.
Localisations in the series were always the worst. Like, not even only japanese to english. It sometimes feels like the translators barely understood english when I read the german translation. Either that, or they just decided that wording is not important when it definitly is, that is why we write to begin with.
A lot of people simply guess that a ton of people were killed by Perfect Chaos' attack on Station Square, but if you decide to talk to the townspeople right at the start of the Super Sonic story, before seeing Knuckles on Angel Island, it's HEAVILY implied that a ton of people moved away from the city following the Falling Missile Incident. Much like the citizens of Tokyo-3 nearing the climax of Evangelion, people began to realize just how dangerous the city was, and decided to flee while they could, leaving only the NPCs that have overarching sideplots, such as the kid waiting for her dad, and the girl obsessed with the Burger Shop guy. So, yes, a lot of people were killed, but far fewer than there would have been otherwise.
One last thing to say... Sonic Adventure is to Sonic what Paper Mario is to Mario.
Continuing that analogy, I think it's funny that people say SA and SA2 are "too dark" for Sonic, yet no one batted an eye when the Paper Mario trilogy gave Mario deeper storytelling/lore and darker themes... up to and including demonic possession, ancient doomsday prophecies, evil cults, the nature of existence and morality, free will vs. determinism, the end of the world, the dichotomy of Heaven and Hell, suicide vs. the will to live, and all sorts of other stuff.
paper mario takes place in a parallel universe to most mario games and the characters are seperate, so idk if that is a good comparison. I would rather say that sonic adventure is like the first two mario and luigis where people could actually die onscreen if the plot wanted it to happen
@@lpfan4491 That distinction of "universes" didn't happen until Sticker Star (which, to me, personally, that game never happened. Same with Color Splash). In the first three Paper Marios, none of the characters were referred to as being "paper" and the whole thing was just an aesthetic, like Yoshi's Island looking like it was drawn with pastels. They made numerous references and direct callbacks to the "main" games (by "main," I mean any game that features the regular look for the series), and elements of the first three games even showed up in the "main" games (Goomboss being a boss in Super Mario 64 DS, the Star Spirits being the hosts of Mario Party 5, and Dry Dry Desert showing up in Double Dash!!, for instance).
For me, paper jam exists and that was actually the game that confirmed it.
@@lpfan4491 My feelings on Paper Jam are very mixed and I don't really count that one, either (though the other M&L games are great). That being said, all the "paper" stuff from Paper Jam was related to Sticker Star. None of the characters or elements from the first three games appeared. If anything, Paper Jam "confirmed" that Sticker Star and Color Splash are an alternate universe/non-canon.
However, speaking of Mario & Luigi, I had forgotten their contribution (and it's a shame, because I think they're fantastic. Bowser's Inside Story is my personal favorite), so I'll slightly rephrase what I said. Sonic Adventure and Sonic Adventure 2 are to Sonic what Super Mario RPG, the first three Paper Marios, and the first four Mario & Luigis are to Mario.
According to an interview with Yugi Naka, the bio lizard was the prototype of the ultimate life form but the bio lizard was uncontrollable and dangerous they had to seal it away! After shadow was created, word somehow got out about the prototype and reached G.U.N, leading to the events of shadows tragic past!
30:53
"Your country will cease to exist."
this has the same energies as "eventually, kars stopped thinking"
In spite of this video being over two hours long, I've watched it 3 or 4 times, and I'd have to say it's one of my favorite TH-cam videos of the year.
It's just so refreshingly earnest, thoughtful, and optimistic about not just this game or this game series, but about storytelling in general.
I can't commend this video enough, and I greatly look forward to more video essays from you about games and stories you love. 👍
The fact that sonic and shadow’s first fight’s camera is centered around shadow makes me think even the camera mistook sonic for shadow
The context was really serious but Sonic’s scream was just hilarious XD
It's just horribly beyond reason how upsetting it is that these characters, and this story, is never expanded upon and Shadow is never as good ever again. The mood and the pacing and the storytelling are all excellent from pretty much every single possible imaginable angle. It's got so many details and designs and art direction and level design that tell us so much about this games connection with the previous titles and the rest of the world and how this is set up. It's got so much individualism for EVERY single character, Sonic, Tails, Knuckles, Rouge, Shadow and Eggman. They are all so absolutely amazingly expanded on or created, and that's not even going into the interpersonal relationships between them all. This is never seen again and so much of the shit hidden and implied in the story is just shoveled and never brought up again. I like Sonic Heroes from what I hear, I like a lot of things from many of the other games, but I will never stop being endlessly disappointed by how THIS was the best Sonic game we ever got.
I'll never believe Shadow died, since he was never shown to have done so, no matter what people say.
To be honest, i also think that he was intended to survive. After all, he blinks as he dissappears in a flash of light. It could be that this flash is Chaos Control activating a final time, teleporting him somewhere.
Total fanfic territory now: in this scenario, I imagine Shadow teleporting to some beautiful place on Earth with windswept green meadows n shit, because thats what Maria wouldve loved to see and Maria's final wish and love for Earth was on his mind in that moment.
I think shadow was always intended to survive too, at least just in case. I think they left it open to interpretation for a reason.
I'll be honest, this was much more convincing than I initially thought when I saw the video title. I knew for a long time that a lot was lost in translation, but I didn't think it was that much. This is honestly a major reason why I tend to stick to a work that's as close to its original language as possible, Japanese or English or whatever.
I also knew a good "meta" reason for why Shadow was mistaken for Sonic. Early concept art of the former is much closer to the latter's than what we got. The other explanation, such as GUN trying to cover things up, the chaotic and confusing situation, and Shadow displaying similar powers and traits to Sonic, do make it believable. Even early on, I didn't make a big deal out of the news having a closeup of Shadow as I considered that a case of the game reusing an earlier cutscene to save development time while we're not meant to think the image on our screen IS the image the public sees. I will say that the point that there aren't many hedgehogs in the story's world loses considerable credibility if you look at later games, but that's more on the latter games gradually becoming more and more inconsistent, so fair enough.
One thing, though. I believe it's a bit hypocritical to use SA2's original dialogue to compliment it while using other games' faulty translations to diss them. For instance, Shadow's line in Heroes is more like "Is that so? Then you'll just have to disappear", fairly close to his depiction in SA2. I do have a lot of issues with the story across the games, but this ain't one of them.
Another thing to keep in mind is that it isn't unreasonable of people to deem the story poor based on the localization/translation. That process IS supposed to present a work so that it gets its ideas and messages accurately in different languages (something which literal translation can hinder, by the way). That's to say Sega has had serious issues localizing Sonic games for decades, and they should improve.
I watched your rebuttal of ProJared's SA2 review on a whim since I tend to like his videos, but strongly disagreed with him on that one. Then I was so impressed, I just had to see your deep dives on the Adventure games. And I'm so glad that you made these!
I've always been an adamant fanboy of these games, and thought I understood them perfectly. But you've given me such incredible new insights... I can barely even wrap my head around it all.
I never would have realized that all of the stage themes were reflective of the characters' moods and situations for instance. And while I could feel how iffy the translations were at points, I never would have guessed at some of the characterization and deep lore I was missing out on.
I just... I've always loved these games, but never truly appreciated their brilliance... Thank you.
I feel like ONE of the problems with every non-Mania Sonic game after Adventure 2 is that they feel like EVERY character has to be involved. It's like... Big, Gamma, Tikal, and Chaos being shoehorned into the story of Adventure 2, and Shadow and Rouge being in the story of Heroes. Or Silver being in any game after '06. Or everyone forgetting about the Master Emerald.
If there's an Adventure 3, I think everything after Adventure 2 has to be ignored.