The phrase your looking for is 'No Industrial Standard' Just bought a Denafrips Terminator-Plus DAC. I have a PS Audio transport and I decided to use the I2S. The Termi+ will configure itself for different I2S configurations. Push the correct buttons, and your good to go.
And theres better sounding DACs for $4K from Europe. Look at the AudioByte Voxx/Zapp its a $4K DSD DAC with an outboard power supply. Add the Hub which matches for $2K and now youve got a streamer/reclocker with i2s input
The solution is not to abandon an interface, I2S, which is superior to USB but for the industry to adopt an I2S standard so that all manufacturers can implement it in the same way and it can become a standard like USB, AES/EBU, or S/PDIF that will allow all componients, regardless who manufactured them, to communicate with one another.
No, because there isnt a standard. It depends on the specific DAC chip that is used, what format the i2s takes. you have in general i2s, left or right justified and PCM and DSD. i2s as mentioned in the vid, is not built for cables, or any long distance, as it has no error correction like USB or ethernet. better to maintain error correction to the very last point and then output to i2s as close as possible to the dac.
@@arthurott4561 yeah, well i2s isnt that standard and by its nature never will be a standard, as it is a hardware level communications format. as long as there is different dacs that have different needs, there will never be an i2s standard. USB is totally fine, if implemented well. A well designed dac should be fairly agnostic when it comes to input anyway.
From what I have read is converting usb from my computer to my ddc and then out i2s to the dac relieves and bypasses the conversion in the dac to improve sound,and I have to say improvement was noticeable
I’m always amazed at the fine line that DAC manufacturers walk where they tout their DACs as great machines but then suggest that you need a DDC and/or external clock for it to sound better, leading us to the logical conclusion that we in fact bought garbage that is need of thousands of $ in extra equipment for it to work correctly.
Agreed that i2s can get dodgy if you're new to the hobby as not everything is 100% compatible. But, I've tried many a USB cable and decrapifier and couldn't get anything USB to sound as good as using a Matrix X-SPIF2 between my server and i2s DAC. It's probably not for everyone but it worked for me.
I my case too usb did not give me good results going straight to usb of dac. I'm now thinking of adding either a DDC or using AES of dac and dCS Network Bridge (planning to buy) to get desired results.
Yeah Dan, it sounds like your DAC is optimized for I2s, now if you could just get your server to output i2s you would eliminate the conversion to USB alltogether..
The server USB should NEVER come off the motherboard , that output is always shitty. You must use a Audiophile USB output card on the PCI Bus, Matrix has one or the best is the JCat
@@OCDHIFiGuy We definitely agree there too. I use the Element H card but still found that putting the X-SPDIF 2 between the server and the DAC made a noticeable difference. Of course, that ups the cost a bit with cables added in. One difference, perhaps, is that I run the X from a 6v battery, which keeps it isolated. But it's really about trying different things to see what works for your system/room/taste. If I were running an Auralic or Audiobyte front end, I would likely have a different point of view of USB. One of these days, I'm going to try a Pink Faun i2s bridge card. It never ends. Which I like.
PS Audio was the first company to use an I2S output. The reason why they developed their I2S protocol was to allow Hi-Res transports to send digital signals to external DACs. Before, SACD players were captive to the internal DAC of the player, and if you wanted something more advanced than the capabilities of SPDIF and Toslink, you were screwed. Now, you can use whatever I2S DAC you want. Hooray. They had to go this route because Sony is still big on all the anti-piracy stuff, and they have already gone through all of the legal bullshit to make sure they're not violating anything. Additionally, the USB protocol is not good with managing clocks; the I2S handshake is much better at handling multiple clock signals while mitigating the jitter that you would otherwise have over USB. PS Audio also made their protocol opensource, which is why we are seeing more and more components utilize I2S.
Thanks for the feedback. I dont like the PS Audio Brand at all. you are clearly unaware of WADIA and TEAC and the ST Digital (AT&T Glass fiber) connection. They both predate PSA, and i2s was never meant to be off the motherboard. Its a hack. still no standard for it , as its an illegitimate standard for outside the machine no matter how Great some people think it is . So I feel its marketing hype. Paul even said they could have used ST Glass but it was too "Hard" to implement.
Between my PS Audio DAC (DSD conversion) and the CD/SACD Transport(Disc Player) I2S sounds the very best to my ears. I guess its synergy within the brand rather than mixing the DAC and Transport between different brands.
ermmm, it is either using i2s, or DSD, you do not transport DSD over i2s. i2s usually takes the form of Bitclock (BCLK), wordclock (LRCK), SDATA and Ground, while DSD only requires Bit clock (BCK), serial data (SDATA) and GND these are taken along with the local Dac master clock (MCLK) to form the full digital audio conversion. there IS a DOP (DSD over PCM) 'standard' but PCM and i2s are not exactly the same. while GND, it isnt even part of the standard, given as a protocol, it was not designed to leave the PCB.
technically i2s is a specific range of different serial encoding formats. i2s itself (philips), was typically defined as 16 bit audio, left justified in a 24 or 32bit container, with all the following 16 in each word bits padded. there are many variations just within i2s, with the same basic electrical connection, then there is PCM and its variants. DSD is a singular use case that is really more of an analogue signal than an encoded digital stream. DSD can can even be listened to directly, with headphones and a basic LPF filter. and buffer, to form a very basic digital input PWM amp. Taken together, the filter and your ears form the reconstruction filter. Yes, it (i2s, not DSD) was indeed designed for interchip communication on PCBs, not cables between boxes. A lot of trouble has to be gone to to use it for external cabling, or long runs, since there is no error correction. its fragile as hell, prone to noise etc, so localised synchronous (for my taste) reclocking s a requirement. It is problematic for any system that needs digital volume control, or DSP, as the RAW 1bit DSD stream has to be converted to PCM, before these operations can be performed and then back again (this process is transparent, not lossy). This is why it never really caught on mainstream for mastering.
Hi Mike, thanks for all the informative video's on digital and Dac demo's. I appreciate your genuine and out of the ordinary approach. I saw that Audiobyte is also offering a USB reclocker device (Hydra-Z), which you don't offer. I use my Mac Mini direct over USB and was planning on upgrading to the Black Dragon. Would their Hydra Z be beneficial in this respect (between the Mac Mini and Black dragon)? I was first planning to clean up the USB chain with a reclocker on my current Dac, but after reading more and seeing your video it makes more sense to just go for a better Dac with good clock instead. Audiobyte seems to focus on the desktop users. I currently have a Burson Conductor 3 dac/headamp, which is still to edgy and sharp on my Harbeth P3s, even after swithing to classis opamps, which your are not a fan of ;)! Thx!
That was great . You definitely taught me about clocks. The I2s took my brain straight to PS audio help Paul always pushes i2s for New gear I'm assuming.
Ive not yet heard I2s be better, and it does not transmit DSD natively as far as I know and my DAC is extremely good at decoding native DSD... so its a no go for me...
I’d love to see you and Paul McGowan from PS Audio discuss this. What would recommend to those who have a budget of say $1000 or so for a media player/streamer and DAC? Not all of us can spend $4000 or more. Thanks.
$1K for both pieces ? well for $1250 get the Dangerous Music Source for DAC and an ALLO Usbridge Signature Player. Give me the props for this killer recommendation by purchasing the Dangerous from me, and then you get a guarantee that Ill buy it back if you ever want to change to an different DAC I carry , plus you get me as a personal HiFi consultant , and you help support what I do here for you gusy , as I dont make any dough from TH-cam .
@@OCDHIFiGuy Thanks OCD Guy, I live in India. Import challenges require us to doubly sure about anything we buy because sending anything back is a PIA and also duties and taxes which are considerable are forfeited. Allo’s USBridge is quite affordable and I wonder if spending 5x of the Allo on the DAC makes for a prudent audio chain. While I haven’t heard any FPGA or R2R DACs I understand they are better than the chip DACs found in CD players (my player is an 8 year old Marantz Pearl) or those sold by the likes of SMSL, Topping and Gustard.
@@navinadv Hi Navin, I can recommend a raspberry PI 3 with volumio os. I use it all the time as my hidef bit perfect player. It plays everything and also outputs DSD Direct to a dac. An affordable solution is Gustard DACs or for a more darring folks an Audio GD R2R DAC. I like to use Singxer SU-1 or higher. It has dip switches to become compatible with any DAC. Mike forgot to mention there devices on the market that allow you to adapt your source to your DAC (Singxer SU-1, Gustard U16) and a lot of other USB Bridge units.
@@yuriz7364 Thanks. I assume you mean that I get the RPi3 and connect that to a Singer SU-1 and then to an Audio GD or Gustard X16 DAC? We get the Topping U90 and Singer SU-6 in India but not the SU-1. Instead of getting a SU-6 or U90, wouldn't it make sense to get the SMSL SD-9 or Cayin i-DAP or Topping M50 (if you don't need a LAN connection)? The Raspberry Pi3 is difficult to get nowadays. In India, the Raspberry Pi4 sells for about the same price as the Allo USBridge Signature. I was going to order a Gustard X-16 DAC, but I was told the 9068 chip has some issues, so instead got the Topping D70s (AKM chip). Instead of the Singer, I ordered the Pi2AES transport board and am hoping the Pi2AES is compatible with the Allo USBridge Signature. We get the Singer SU-6 in India but not the SU-1. The Topping U90 is about half the cost of the SU-6. I assume you are using the Singer between your Raspberry Pi 3 and your DAC.
@@navinadv Hi Navin, The reason I chose the Singxer unit is because its high compatibility with Gustard, Audio GD and PS Audio products. It might work with Topping too but I would research the settings in the singxer first. I used the RPi for many years. You have to remember to update the Pi firmware as soon as you get it. Because its very important if you use Volumio so everything works smoothly... I use a Gustard U16 bridge in my smaller system because it has a 10mhz input so I can use my external 10mhz Clock. But the Topping bridge should work just fine. I found that RPi 4 is a bit unstable with Volumio. so dont be surprised when there is a skip or stutter. might be the USB 3 ports. try to only use USB 2 for i/o
This is one of the better layman explanations of I2S LVDS that I have seen. Mike, you can be a teacher, few teachers I had in Engineering college are able to get to the basics as well as you do. I am thinking of using an Allo USBridge USB transport with a Shanti linear power supply for the streamer. Is there a better option less than $500? Is there a huge difference between USB and I2S-LVDS?
Thanks Navin, I do believe I am able to describe things in a way most can understand. Its a gift. Allo is great go for it ... sometimes USB is better like in the Rockna Wavedream Signature Balanced
@@OCDHIFiGuy I must commend you for including those of us who are on a beer budget. Many who talk about high end look down their noses at anything that costs less than $1000. You don’t. Thank you.
I am glad that someone is bringing up the I2S topic. I2S is a protocol for transferring the data on a PC board not cables, even at board-level, the implementation is purely based on the skills of the hardware engineer and the PC board layout person and knowledge of signal integrity. There are reference design and application notes from the companies that developed the protocol (Philips) for correct implementation. As someone that oversees a multi-discipline and fairly sizeable engineering department, I can vouch that engineers with Signal integrity background are NOT cheap to hire or even consult with, so what we are seeing lately with companies offering I2S connections is yet another audio rabbit hole. Once the I2S data is taken off the PC board and traveling over longer distances, the data is even more susceptible! OCD guy is 100% correct, save your money.
Hey Mike ! Just saw this... Not sure what took so LONG ! I agree with 99% of what you said.. The only place that I will differ slightly is I2S (e.g. over HDMI). If someone has an SACD player and want to use an external DAC to play the SACD layer (DSD FILES), I2S is the only way to go, I believe as neither Coax nor TosLink outputs anything when playing DSD's. I've never tried it as I worry about lack of standardization of I2S pinout plus the handshake issues that could happen between an SACD player and a DAC for DSD decoding. Then there is the DDC (Digital to Digital Converter) ! If it is for noise suppression, then it makes some sense but everyone says USB is very noisy but for me, I am very satisfied with the quality of the sound from my stereo.
USB off the motherboard of a computer is noisy. This is why I use a dedicated high end USB card in a PCI Slot.. Sound is killer. Im not on the same page with i2s... its a total hit or miss gamble that things will work well together with that bastardized protocol.
@@OCDHIFiGuy I agree USB is noisy. So…. if someone wants to use an external DSD capable DAC to playback SACD layer , how can this be done without using I2S? No SACD ripping though as that’s a rather convoluted process and is very hardware dependent. Thanks man.
@@ptg01 i2s is not DSD, they are 2 different formats. There is no way to play dsd over i2s. There is such a thing as dsd over pcm (DoP) which transports DSD in a PCM container over (typically) USB (but it *is* also possible over coax with the right hardware)
@@jeremyglover5541 From all I've read, I2S over HDMI can transmit DSD to a DSD capable DAC that also has I2S over HDMI. But it is littered with caveats due to copyright issues from the early days of SACD....If I2S over HDMI does not transmit DSD, then these SACD transports (such as PS Audio's SACD Transport) will never play DSD layer of SACDs... which seems odd...
Hey OCD, is there a way to make a AD and DA converter clock to synchronize with GPS time to get more accurate samples as GPS is a precision instrument? I think the naval observatory uses cesium clocks or something? Like turn on your AD / DA and then push a button to sync its internal clock with a GPS signal for sampling time?
I used I2S on two of my dacs and the results were stunning. I'm an electronic musician and my softsynths that imitated classic synths that I own sound much more harmonically accurate. I have built several amplifiers and electronic instruments. I2s is very good! You have some misunderstanding from a lack of electronics knowledge.
Oh is it really from a lack of electronics knowledge ? no it's not it's from an opinion Holmes. The truth of the matter is i2s just started to become good. And not all of it is. What brand of HDMI of cable are you using? You know what's better than i2s? The proprietary protocols the high-end DACs use how where the cable is glass fiber, so it's impossible to pick up noise. The truth is I squared ess is a hack. The bastardized the LVDS protocol which is for video along with audio.
With all due respect, you are wrong about an outboard master clock not improving sound. I can A/B test with the DAC remote and I can hear a clear improvement. Now if every DAC cam with a oven controlled supercut crystal maybe your assertion would be true, but the clocks are not of the same quality and I can hear it on a very revealing system.
I have a denon 4308ci with denon link(rj45) connectors. Would this be considered i2s? And if so do you think I could use a dac with Rj45 outputs? This is to play native dsd. Thanks!
Ive already done it . Its in the past videos. In order to do it properly I would need a server with i2s output and so far USB is best for me . On my test vid , I used a Rockna server and a Rockna DAC
I use a vintage Accuphase DC-91, PC->m2Tech evo usb to ST glass optical->DC-91. Despite it's age it sounds phenomenal, but would i for example benefit from a modern master clock? My DC-91 has 3 auto precision levels;info reads as follows: "Uses 3 quartz oscillators for level I, 3 lithium tantalate oscillators for level II, and a CR oscillator for level III, resulting in a total of 7 PLL oscillators optimized for their respective precision level." Accuphase serviced the device last month and put new IC and new "X’TAL(11,2896MHz:HC49 527-0017-00) crystal oscillator. Do i require a master clock to clock into the m2tech? PS: Why isn't ST glass optical used anymore? It sounds great!
I should mention that i have yet to read a Precision Level III for any lossless track i have. Many are Level II, most are Level I so most of my tracks are using the quartz clock i assume. If i upsample all tracks from 44 to 48khz i get a Level II lock. The brochure states "manual override is possible" but i have no idea how to override to Level III to always use the crystal??
My DAC right now uses ST Digital , and its the best.... Playback designs. PLL is bad , you dont want one, much less 7 of them... they make noise and are taboo...
@@OCDHIFiGuy so I want to manually force level III crystal clock to be used, then? At least until i can get it modded/upgraded to new clocks and no feedback loop. Im using lifatech glass st optical cable. I couldn't find any others.. Know of any that aren't priced as high as AURAL SYMPHONY? I want to change to mutec usb converter but mod one with an ST output. Pc is my only source so I have to get the signal to the dac and the old m2tech hiface evo is the only one I know of with ST out
C'mon Mikey, differential and balanced aren't the same thing. A balanced signal is always differential, but a differential signal isn't always balanced. Balanced implies matched impedance on both circuit legs, differential is only + and - voltage. Rockna wasn't even a company when i2s was invented for servo to dac comms in cd players.
Is this also relevant to using external ethernet switch with buildt in tcxo and noice cancelling like english electrick ethernetswitch claim may help the streamer and dac sound better?
I am about to test the "Audiophile switch" and will make a video about it , so subscribe and check the bell icon and you will be notified when I post new vids so you'll be sure to see the one on Audiophile switches.
Good request since ocd guy was reportedly usa distro for ccp denafrip once upon a time. Hope you get yr help after 5 mths but he may not know cos no longer distro for denafrip while your mentioned are newer products.
What about a SACD Player which will only send 1 bit DSD Through the hdmi but i2s doesn’t work straight from the player so I use a HDMI To i2s converter which seems to work a treat .
Wow, lol, never thought about that. My DAC decodes SACD via Glass fiber. Usually the highest end DACs also have a matching transport and they always use a proprietary cable and protocol, some use RJ45 and ethernet cable some use Glass fiber, some use DIN plugs
@@redleather100 My understanding (and I can be WRONG): I2S can also be sent using HDMI type of cable but it is NOT the same as HDMI that you see for A/V purposes... What confuses me though is some Sony BluRay players can play SACDs and my A/V Receiver shows DSD 2 channel or DSD 5 Channel (as selected on BluRay player) being decoded.. Aaargh !!!
@@ptg01 yes a SACD blue ray 4k player will only send the DSD Signal through a hdmi cable Not the digital out , because on a dedicated SACD Player , it will not send it through a digital output, its decoded in the players own dac and sent out the RCA,S . I think Sony have the rights on the digital side of things .
@@redleather100 Thanks for response.. Clarification: On my Sony BluRay players that can play SACD's, my receiver is connected to it via an actual HDMI Cable (usually to watch movies) and the receiver is decoding DSD;s ! . I can also confirm that the digital outs of the BluRay player (both coax and optical outs) are both PCM 16/ 44.1 only when playing SACD's as I connected it to a DSD capable external DAC with display.
The phrase your looking for is 'No Industrial Standard'
Just bought a Denafrips Terminator-Plus DAC. I have a PS Audio transport and I decided to use the I2S. The Termi+ will configure itself for different I2S configurations. Push the correct buttons, and your good to go.
Holy crap! Now I have to sell my Termi+ 'cause it's got an outdated crappy clock.
And theres better sounding DACs for $4K from Europe. Look at the AudioByte Voxx/Zapp its a $4K DSD DAC with an outboard power supply. Add the Hub which matches for $2K and now youve got a streamer/reclocker with i2s input
What latest and not outdated clock does recommended stack of voxx/zapp has ? I may have to follow Mark to sell off my Tplus 🤔
Holy crap! That's the best explanation I've ever heard. Will have to listen many times to soak into my brain.
The solution is not to abandon an interface, I2S, which is superior to USB but for the industry to adopt an I2S standard so that all manufacturers can implement it in the same way and it can become a standard like USB, AES/EBU, or S/PDIF that will allow all componients, regardless who manufactured them, to communicate with one another.
No, because there isnt a standard. It depends on the specific DAC chip that is used, what format the i2s takes. you have in general i2s, left or right justified and PCM and DSD. i2s as mentioned in the vid, is not built for cables, or any long distance, as it has no error correction like USB or ethernet. better to maintain error correction to the very last point and then output to i2s as close as possible to the dac.
@@jeremyglover5541 Yes, that's why I said a standard needs to be developed. USB is shit.
@@arthurott4561 yeah, well i2s isnt that standard and by its nature never will be a standard, as it is a hardware level communications format. as long as there is different dacs that have different needs, there will never be an i2s standard. USB is totally fine, if implemented well. A well designed dac should be fairly agnostic when it comes to input anyway.
@@jeremyglover5541 Are you an engineer?
@@jeremyglover5541 Yes, USB is fine, at best.
From what I have read is converting usb from my computer to my ddc and then out i2s to the dac relieves and bypasses the conversion in the dac to improve sound,and I have to say improvement was noticeable
I’m always amazed at the fine line that DAC manufacturers walk where they tout their DACs as great machines but then suggest that you need a DDC and/or external clock for it to sound better, leading us to the logical conclusion that we in fact bought garbage that is need of thousands of $ in extra equipment for it to work correctly.
EXACTLY... its like the first RED flag that the DAC MFG is HUSTLING YOU.... Lol, does not take a genius !
Agreed that i2s can get dodgy if you're new to the hobby as not everything is 100% compatible. But, I've tried many a USB cable and decrapifier and couldn't get anything USB to sound as good as using a Matrix X-SPIF2 between my server and i2s DAC. It's probably not for everyone but it worked for me.
I my case too usb did not give me good results going straight to usb of dac.
I'm now thinking of adding either a DDC or using AES of dac and dCS Network Bridge (planning to buy) to get desired results.
Yeah Dan, it sounds like your DAC is optimized for I2s, now if you could just get your server to output i2s you would eliminate the conversion to USB alltogether..
The server USB should NEVER come off the motherboard , that output is always shitty. You must use a Audiophile USB output card on the PCI Bus, Matrix has one or the best is the JCat
@@OCDHIFiGuy We definitely agree there too. I use the Element H card but still found that putting the X-SPDIF 2 between the server and the DAC made a noticeable difference. Of course, that ups the cost a bit with cables added in. One difference, perhaps, is that I run the X from a 6v battery, which keeps it isolated. But it's really about trying different things to see what works for your system/room/taste. If I were running an Auralic or Audiobyte front end, I would likely have a different point of view of USB. One of these days, I'm going to try a Pink Faun i2s bridge card. It never ends. Which I like.
PS Audio was the first company to use an I2S output. The reason why they developed their I2S protocol was to allow Hi-Res transports to send digital signals to external DACs. Before, SACD players were captive to the internal DAC of the player, and if you wanted something more advanced than the capabilities of SPDIF and Toslink, you were screwed. Now, you can use whatever I2S DAC you want. Hooray. They had to go this route because Sony is still big on all the anti-piracy stuff, and they have already gone through all of the legal bullshit to make sure they're not violating anything. Additionally, the USB protocol is not good with managing clocks; the I2S handshake is much better at handling multiple clock signals while mitigating the jitter that you would otherwise have over USB. PS Audio also made their protocol opensource, which is why we are seeing more and more components utilize I2S.
Thanks for the feedback. I dont like the PS Audio Brand at all. you are clearly unaware of WADIA and TEAC and the ST Digital (AT&T Glass fiber) connection. They both predate PSA, and i2s was never meant to be off the motherboard. Its a hack. still no standard for it , as its an illegitimate standard for outside the machine no matter how Great some people think it is . So I feel its marketing hype. Paul even said they could have used ST Glass but it was too "Hard" to implement.
Between my PS Audio DAC (DSD conversion) and the CD/SACD Transport(Disc Player) I2S sounds the very best to my ears. I guess its synergy within the brand rather than mixing the DAC and Transport between different brands.
ermmm, it is either using i2s, or DSD, you do not transport DSD over i2s. i2s usually takes the form of Bitclock (BCLK), wordclock (LRCK), SDATA and Ground, while DSD only requires Bit clock (BCK), serial data (SDATA) and GND these are taken along with the local Dac master clock (MCLK) to form the full digital audio conversion. there IS a DOP (DSD over PCM) 'standard' but PCM and i2s are not exactly the same. while GND, it isnt even part of the standard, given as a protocol, it was not designed to leave the PCB.
@Arthur Ott see here for longer explanation why
@@jeremyglover5541 also very important info, thanks 😊
Whoop there it is ! .... One clarification i2s was designed to carry PCM information between IC's on a pcb. Thats the relation between the 2
technically i2s is a specific range of different serial encoding formats. i2s itself (philips), was typically defined as 16 bit audio, left justified in a 24 or 32bit container, with all the following 16 in each word bits padded. there are many variations just within i2s, with the same basic electrical connection, then there is PCM and its variants. DSD is a singular use case that is really more of an analogue signal than an encoded digital stream. DSD can can even be listened to directly, with headphones and a basic LPF filter. and buffer, to form a very basic digital input PWM amp. Taken together, the filter and your ears form the reconstruction filter.
Yes, it (i2s, not DSD) was indeed designed for interchip communication on PCBs, not cables between boxes. A lot of trouble has to be gone to to use it for external cabling, or long runs, since there is no error correction. its fragile as hell, prone to noise etc, so localised synchronous (for my taste) reclocking s a requirement. It is problematic for any system that needs digital volume control, or DSP, as the RAW 1bit DSD stream has to be converted to PCM, before these operations can be performed and then back again (this process is transparent, not lossy). This is why it never really caught on mainstream for mastering.
It's interesting that you don't see more I2s bridges. I'm thinking to moving to one of these instead of USB. I still really want that Audiobyte DAC!
Hi Mike, thanks for all the informative video's on digital and Dac demo's. I appreciate your genuine and out of the ordinary approach. I saw that Audiobyte is also offering a USB reclocker device (Hydra-Z), which you don't offer. I use my Mac Mini direct over USB and was planning on upgrading to the Black Dragon. Would their Hydra Z be beneficial in this respect (between the Mac Mini and Black dragon)? I was first planning to clean up the USB chain with a reclocker on my current Dac, but after reading more and seeing your video it makes more sense to just go for a better Dac with good clock instead. Audiobyte seems to focus on the desktop users. I currently have a Burson Conductor 3 dac/headamp, which is still to edgy and sharp on my Harbeth P3s, even after swithing to classis opamps, which your are not a fan of ;)! Thx!
That was great . You definitely taught me about clocks. The I2s took my brain straight to PS audio help Paul always pushes i2s for New gear I'm assuming.
Ive not yet heard I2s be better, and it does not transmit DSD natively as far as I know and my DAC is extremely good at decoding native DSD... so its a no go for me...
good info on the crystal clocks ....as with network switches don't use anymore as well
I’d love to see you and Paul McGowan from PS Audio discuss this.
What would recommend to those who have a budget of say $1000 or so for a media player/streamer and DAC? Not all of us can spend $4000 or more. Thanks.
$1K for both pieces ? well for $1250 get the Dangerous Music Source for DAC and an ALLO Usbridge Signature Player. Give me the props for this killer recommendation by purchasing the Dangerous from me, and then you get a guarantee that Ill buy it back if you ever want to change to an different DAC I carry , plus you get me as a personal HiFi consultant , and you help support what I do here for you gusy , as I dont make any dough from TH-cam .
@@OCDHIFiGuy Thanks OCD Guy, I live in India. Import challenges require us to doubly sure about anything we buy because sending anything back is a PIA and also duties and taxes which are considerable are forfeited. Allo’s USBridge is quite affordable and I wonder if spending 5x of the Allo on the DAC makes for a prudent audio chain. While I haven’t heard any FPGA or R2R DACs I understand they are better than the chip DACs found in CD players (my player is an 8 year old Marantz Pearl) or those sold by the likes of SMSL, Topping and Gustard.
@@navinadv Hi Navin, I can recommend a raspberry PI 3 with volumio os. I use it all the time as my hidef bit perfect player. It plays everything and also outputs DSD Direct to a dac. An affordable solution is Gustard DACs or for a more darring folks an Audio GD R2R DAC.
I like to use Singxer SU-1 or higher. It has dip switches to become compatible with any DAC. Mike forgot to mention there devices on the market that allow you to adapt your source to your DAC (Singxer SU-1, Gustard U16) and a lot of other USB Bridge units.
@@yuriz7364 Thanks.
I assume you mean that I get the RPi3 and connect that to a Singer SU-1 and then to an Audio GD or Gustard X16 DAC? We get the Topping U90 and Singer SU-6 in India but not the SU-1.
Instead of getting a SU-6 or U90, wouldn't it make sense to get the SMSL SD-9 or Cayin i-DAP or Topping M50 (if you don't need a LAN connection)?
The Raspberry Pi3 is difficult to get nowadays. In India, the Raspberry Pi4 sells for about the same price as the Allo USBridge Signature. I was going to order a Gustard X-16 DAC, but I was told the 9068 chip has some issues, so instead got the Topping D70s (AKM chip). Instead of the Singer, I ordered the Pi2AES transport board and am hoping the Pi2AES is compatible with the Allo USBridge Signature.
We get the Singer SU-6 in India but not the SU-1. The Topping U90 is about half the cost of the SU-6. I assume you are using the Singer between your Raspberry Pi 3 and your DAC.
@@navinadv Hi Navin, The reason I chose the Singxer unit is because its high compatibility with Gustard, Audio GD and PS Audio products. It might work with Topping too but I would research the settings in the singxer first. I used the RPi for many years. You have to remember to update the Pi firmware as soon as you get it. Because its very important if you use Volumio so everything works smoothly... I use a Gustard U16 bridge in my smaller system because it has a 10mhz input so I can use my external 10mhz Clock. But the Topping bridge should work just fine. I found that RPi 4 is a bit unstable with Volumio. so dont be surprised when there is a skip or stutter. might be the USB 3 ports. try to only use USB 2 for i/o
This is one of the better layman explanations of I2S LVDS that I have seen. Mike, you can be a teacher, few teachers I had in Engineering college are able to get to the basics as well as you do.
I am thinking of using an Allo USBridge USB transport with a Shanti linear power supply for the streamer. Is there a better option less than $500? Is there a huge difference between USB and I2S-LVDS?
Thanks Navin, I do believe I am able to describe things in a way most can understand. Its a gift. Allo is great go for it ... sometimes USB is better like in the Rockna Wavedream Signature Balanced
@@OCDHIFiGuy I must commend you for including those of us who are on a beer budget. Many who talk about high end look down their noses at anything that costs less than $1000. You don’t. Thank you.
I am glad that someone is bringing up the I2S topic. I2S is a protocol for transferring the data on a PC board not cables, even at board-level, the implementation is purely based on the skills of the hardware engineer and the PC board layout person and knowledge of signal integrity. There are reference design and application notes from the companies that developed the protocol (Philips) for correct implementation. As someone that oversees a multi-discipline and fairly sizeable engineering department, I can vouch that engineers with Signal integrity background are NOT cheap to hire or even consult with, so what we are seeing lately with companies offering I2S connections is yet another audio rabbit hole. Once the I2S data is taken off the PC board and traveling over longer distances, the data is even more susceptible!
OCD guy is 100% correct, save your money.
Hey Mike ! Just saw this... Not sure what took so LONG ! I agree with 99% of what you said.. The only place that I will differ slightly is I2S (e.g. over HDMI). If someone has an SACD player and want to use an external DAC to play the SACD layer (DSD FILES), I2S is the only way to go, I believe as neither Coax nor TosLink outputs anything when playing DSD's. I've never tried it as I worry about lack of standardization of I2S pinout plus the handshake issues that could happen between an SACD player and a DAC for DSD decoding.
Then there is the DDC (Digital to Digital Converter) ! If it is for noise suppression, then it makes some sense but everyone says USB is very noisy but for me, I am very satisfied with the quality of the sound from my stereo.
USB off the motherboard of a computer is noisy. This is why I use a dedicated high end USB card in a PCI Slot.. Sound is killer. Im not on the same page with i2s... its a total hit or miss gamble that things will work well together with that bastardized protocol.
@@OCDHIFiGuy I agree USB is noisy. So…. if someone wants to use an external DSD capable DAC to playback SACD layer , how can this be done without using I2S? No SACD ripping though as that’s a rather convoluted process and is very hardware dependent. Thanks man.
@@ptg01 i2s is not DSD, they are 2 different formats. There is no way to play dsd over i2s.
There is such a thing as dsd over pcm (DoP) which transports DSD in a PCM container over (typically) USB (but it *is* also possible over coax with the right hardware)
USB audio is not noisy in itself, but some implementations of it can be. Its a system design problem.
@@jeremyglover5541 From all I've read, I2S over HDMI can transmit DSD to a DSD capable DAC that also has I2S over HDMI. But it is littered with caveats due to copyright issues from the early days of SACD....If I2S over HDMI does not transmit DSD, then these SACD transports (such as PS Audio's SACD Transport) will never play DSD layer of SACDs... which seems odd...
Hey OCD, is there a way to make a AD and DA converter clock to synchronize with GPS time to get more accurate samples as GPS is a precision instrument? I think the naval observatory uses cesium clocks or something? Like turn on your AD / DA and then push a button to sync its internal clock with a GPS signal for sampling time?
I've never heard of that, but there are Master Clocks for Audio that are Rubidium....
@OCD HI-Fi Guy yeah but rubidium is not as accurate as cesium ect, ect, ect.....
I used I2S on two of my dacs and the results were stunning. I'm an electronic musician and my softsynths that imitated classic synths that I own sound much more harmonically accurate. I have built several amplifiers and electronic instruments. I2s is very good! You have some misunderstanding from a lack of electronics knowledge.
Oh is it really from a lack of electronics knowledge ? no it's not it's from an opinion Holmes. The truth of the matter is i2s just started to become good. And not all of it is. What brand of HDMI of cable are you using? You know what's better than i2s? The proprietary protocols the high-end DACs use how where the cable is glass fiber, so it's impossible to pick up noise. The truth is I squared ess is a hack. The bastardized the LVDS protocol which is for video along with audio.
@@OCDHIFiGuy I2s has been around for over 30 years and it blew away SPDIF even back then.
@@carlosoliveira-rc2xt its still a hack with no code for specification off a board. Never designed to be off a board. Whether it worked or not....
@@OCDHIFiGuy True but most innovations started off as hacks. Unfortunately I2S never had standardization which is common.
Did you use it for DSD decoding from an SACD player ? How does the handshake work ?
I have a question about the Dangerous Music Source. Can it be used in a classic consumer non-pro hifi set up with RCA inputs?
Yes, with RCA to XLR Adapters.
Thank you for this video, it is very clear explanation. Keep it up!
Thanks, will do!
With all due respect, you are wrong about an outboard master clock not improving sound. I can A/B test with the DAC remote and I can hear a clear improvement. Now if every DAC cam with a oven controlled supercut crystal maybe your assertion would be true, but the clocks are not of the same quality and I can hear it on a very revealing system.
I have a denon 4308ci with denon link(rj45) connectors. Would this be considered i2s? And if so do you think I could use a dac with Rj45 outputs? This is to play native dsd.
Thanks!
So I should not get a denafrips Gaia to go between my innuos zen mk3 and ps audio direct stream?
I will be looking for to the corresponding audio i2S vs. USB shootout.
Ive already done it . Its in the past videos. In order to do it properly I would need a server with i2s output and so far USB is best for me . On my test vid , I used a Rockna server and a Rockna DAC
I use a vintage Accuphase DC-91, PC->m2Tech evo usb to ST glass optical->DC-91. Despite it's age it sounds phenomenal, but would i for example benefit from a modern master clock? My DC-91 has 3 auto precision levels;info reads as follows: "Uses 3 quartz oscillators for level I, 3 lithium tantalate oscillators for level II, and a CR oscillator for level III, resulting in a total of 7 PLL oscillators optimized for their respective precision level." Accuphase serviced the device last month and put new IC and new "X’TAL(11,2896MHz:HC49 527-0017-00) crystal oscillator. Do i require a master clock to clock into the m2tech?
PS: Why isn't ST glass optical used anymore? It sounds great!
I should mention that i have yet to read a Precision Level III for any lossless track i have. Many are Level II, most are Level I so most of my tracks are using the quartz clock i assume. If i upsample all tracks from 44 to 48khz i get a Level II lock. The brochure states "manual override is possible" but i have no idea how to override to Level III to always use the crystal??
My DAC right now uses ST Digital , and its the best.... Playback designs. PLL is bad , you dont want one, much less 7 of them... they make noise and are taboo...
@@OCDHIFiGuy so I want to manually force level III crystal clock to be used, then? At least until i can get it modded/upgraded to new clocks and no feedback loop. Im using lifatech glass st optical cable. I couldn't find any others.. Know of any that aren't priced as high as AURAL SYMPHONY? I want to change to mutec usb converter but mod one with an ST output. Pc is my only source so I have to get the signal to the dac and the old m2tech hiface evo is the only one I know of with ST out
C'mon Mikey, differential and balanced aren't the same thing. A balanced signal is always differential, but a differential signal isn't always balanced. Balanced implies matched impedance on both circuit legs, differential is only + and - voltage.
Rockna wasn't even a company when i2s was invented for servo to dac comms in cd players.
yup, its a philips standard initially, yeah?
OK, Good to know ... Thx .. Never said Rockna invented it , just that they are very good at implementing what I consider to be a consumer driven hack.
Is this also relevant to using external ethernet switch with buildt in tcxo and noice cancelling like english electrick ethernetswitch claim may help the streamer and dac sound better?
I am about to test the "Audiophile switch" and will make a video about it , so subscribe and check the bell icon and you will be notified when I post new vids so you'll be sure to see the one on Audiophile switches.
I like that Chetnik outfit
I’m glad I listened,.
Cool man, Thanks for watching ..
Great vid, man right on the cutting edge with your subject matter here, CALL IT A HACK ! When it IS!.....whooo! Just crushing it here.
Hey man , gotta call it like it is ... lol.
No love for the Denafrips Gaia then?
No Love for the CCP my friend. I dont buy Chinese HiFi.
@@OCDHIFiGuy Is it true that Jeff Rowland uses a Chinese Class-D amp module in the Continuum S2?
@@OCDHIFiGuy Any suggestions for R2R DACs ala Denafrips Ares II /Pontus II or better ? I am all ears !
Good request since ocd guy was reportedly usa distro for ccp denafrip once upon a time. Hope you get yr help after 5 mths but he may not know cos no longer distro for denafrip while your mentioned are newer products.
@@ptg01 Im using an Audio GD R7 HE DAC. love it! works with USB input and HDMI I2S input..
What about a SACD Player which will only send 1 bit DSD Through the hdmi but i2s doesn’t work straight from the player so I use a HDMI To i2s converter which seems to work a treat .
Wow, lol, never thought about that. My DAC decodes SACD via Glass fiber. Usually the highest end DACs also have a matching transport and they always use a proprietary cable and protocol, some use RJ45 and ethernet cable some use Glass fiber, some use DIN plugs
@@OCDHIFiGuy I didn’t think that SACD players Sent DSD through the digital outs . Only HDMI.
@@redleather100 My understanding (and I can be WRONG): I2S can also be sent using HDMI type of cable but it is NOT the same as HDMI that you see for A/V purposes... What confuses me though is some Sony BluRay players can play SACDs and my A/V Receiver shows DSD 2 channel or DSD 5 Channel (as selected on BluRay player) being decoded.. Aaargh !!!
@@ptg01 yes a SACD blue ray 4k player will only send the DSD Signal through a hdmi cable Not the digital out , because on a dedicated SACD Player , it will not send it through a digital output, its decoded in the players own dac and sent out the RCA,S . I think Sony have the rights on the digital side of things .
@@redleather100 Thanks for response.. Clarification: On my Sony BluRay players that can play SACD's, my receiver is connected to it via an actual HDMI Cable (usually to watch movies) and the receiver is decoding DSD;s ! . I can also confirm that the digital outs of the BluRay player (both coax and optical outs) are both PCM 16/ 44.1 only when playing SACD's as I connected it to a DSD capable external DAC with display.
Uhh, it's further from the truth not farther. You're not dealing with an actual distance. 😋
lol, you caught that one..
Squirrel !!!
Yeah ! Yeah! , thomeone thay thquirrell ??
Done and done.
?
@@OCDHIFiGuy Sorry. I supposed I should have just said thanks over what popped up in my mind and escaped my finger tips at the time : )