Appreciate the boost and contributions to this conversation and the community! Been watching your stuff for a while and have enjoyed the attention to detail. I've been toying with scapular protraction for a while ever since I first heard about it and saw some pros advocate it. I pretty quickly noticed how it helped with horizontal collapse by using my off hand to try to pull my throwing elbow across into horizontal collapse, and could feel there was some added resistance. But then when I randomly tried that on the wall, it was just like you, 'holy crap!', and I realized there was a lot more I could get out of it than I initially realized. Scapular protraction also feels like when you bring the off arm down and in that it tugs even more across the upper back into the throwing side which I think you've mentioned that feeling before, but it just accentuates it further with extra focus on scapular protraction.
Totally! Seems like you are doing alot of good coaching work too. I need to spend more time catching up on your stuff! Yes, better structure in that front shoulder makes it alot easier to harvest power from the rear sides momentum.
@@_TDG I haven't really gotten into coaching I'd say. I've done a session here or there randomly but haven't dove into it. My vids kind of blur the line though, I'm not really intended them to be coaching vids, more just, "Here's what I've found helpful and here's my mental model how it helps" so that people can try stuff if they want to. But I inevitably end up straying into "should" and "shouldn't" statements, lol.
@@disc-golf-neilok sure. I mean thats half how I think of myself too: as much ‘educator’ as coach… I feel like my goal is more to educate people so they can coach rather than just make better players.
@ for sure. I’m also just newer still 1.3 years into DG and still experimenting a ton. Even tho every coach evolves their model, mine hasn’t stabilized enough yet. So before I get into higher level coaching (not just helping with egregious issues), I want my model to stabilize a bit so I have a clearer more confident path to focus on.
I’m glad you posted this video because I had watched his video and was like “can I trust this guy or is his advice going to rip apart my shoulder?” Now that you’ve shown support I feel pretty sure he is competent 👍
Watched his video yesterday and I know I don't protract my shoulder but I do all the shoulder collapse things for sure. I subscribed to Neil's channel too.
Your point about body awareness and internal martial arts is a good one. Whippersnappers of all ages can get away with stupid stuff until the day they cannot.
I was gonna ask for some tips about that because it feels very tense. Maybe with some practice it won't be? My body is currently telling me this is an unsafe way to throw even though it may not be. I guess I'll try working up the power level.
I don't know anything but I feel my shoulder does this naturally when the shoulders turn or the back shoulder moves in the direction of the target. Presetting it might help. I think of the throw as a fluid swing and don't really isolate body parts but try to get everything working together smoothly. I've been watching Bradley William's form on his off-season videos and working on a smooth follow thru with slower discs. One thing I've felt which might not make sense is to keep the disc level with or slightly below my elbow during the full swing unless it's an anny shot. One cue is to think of keeping the disc under armpit height or moving it under the armpit and as flat as possible. This keeps me from dropping my elbow. Plus the shoulder is a ball joint (I think) it must swing under or over. I get better results swinging over on top of the disc. I tried punching the disc out with good distance but man you can feel the stress on the elbow. I'm all about maximizing the throw with the least wear and tear on my joints. I've seen TH-camrs say to twist the wrist during the throw also (briefcase turn the key thing) but that sounds crazy to me to twist you wrist which twist your elbow intentionally during a fast arm swing. It's like your elbow wrist and disc should stay on the swing plane through the swing in my experience. If something doesn't feel right don't do it. Everybody is different.
Another thing I'm messing with is thinking of the disc pivoting in my hand. There are a ton of grip videos and nose down so on videos but I haven't heard anyone talk about the disc pivot in the hand and that a grip isn't static. Like however u hold the disc doesn't matter as the discs starts to spin in your hand and your hand naturally grabs it and it pops out. I've got some high speed having it loose starting to spin it to the top palm then gripping it at the final point in the throw. Probably faster or as fast as any added body mechanics.
Its really best learned in person, from someone who really gets it. My best advice is to find a local ‘push hands’ meet up and go train with people, find out who is good, and ask them who you should train with locally. Anything is a good start, but there are alot of westerners teaching it that just teach the shapes / dance moves with very little understanding of the application or core ideas of the movements (still a good thing, but missing the depth of the art).
I don't remember who said this (some youtuber I'm sure), but they suggested during your backswing, getting your shoulder under your chin. Not sure if that accomplishes the same thing or not.
Was it the video where the guy was saying to keep your eye on the target as long as possible until your shoulder pushes your chin to turn? I just watched one that was talking about that
Appreciate the boost and contributions to this conversation and the community! Been watching your stuff for a while and have enjoyed the attention to detail.
I've been toying with scapular protraction for a while ever since I first heard about it and saw some pros advocate it. I pretty quickly noticed how it helped with horizontal collapse by using my off hand to try to pull my throwing elbow across into horizontal collapse, and could feel there was some added resistance. But then when I randomly tried that on the wall, it was just like you, 'holy crap!', and I realized there was a lot more I could get out of it than I initially realized.
Scapular protraction also feels like when you bring the off arm down and in that it tugs even more across the upper back into the throwing side which I think you've mentioned that feeling before, but it just accentuates it further with extra focus on scapular protraction.
Totally! Seems like you are doing alot of good coaching work too. I need to spend more time catching up on your stuff!
Yes, better structure in that front shoulder makes it alot easier to harvest power from the rear sides momentum.
@@_TDG I haven't really gotten into coaching I'd say. I've done a session here or there randomly but haven't dove into it.
My vids kind of blur the line though, I'm not really intended them to be coaching vids, more just, "Here's what I've found helpful and here's my mental model how it helps" so that people can try stuff if they want to. But I inevitably end up straying into "should" and "shouldn't" statements, lol.
@@disc-golf-neilok sure. I mean thats half how I think of myself too: as much ‘educator’ as coach… I feel like my goal is more to educate people so they can coach rather than just make better players.
@ for sure. I’m also just newer still 1.3 years into DG and still experimenting a ton. Even tho every coach evolves their model, mine hasn’t stabilized enough yet. So before I get into higher level coaching (not just helping with egregious issues), I want my model to stabilize a bit so I have a clearer more confident path to focus on.
I’m glad you posted this video because I had watched his video and was like “can I trust this guy or is his advice going to rip apart my shoulder?”
Now that you’ve shown support I feel pretty sure he is competent 👍
Just try the wall part. You will feel that the protracted position makes your shoulder infinitely more stable.
Watched his video yesterday and I know I don't protract my shoulder but I do all the shoulder collapse things for sure. I subscribed to Neil's channel too.
Your point about body awareness and internal martial arts is a good one. Whippersnappers of all ages can get away with stupid stuff until the day they cannot.
So painfully true!
I feel putting my offarm behind the leg (ie in back pocket) does this without tensing the shoulder.
I was gonna ask for some tips about that because it feels very tense. Maybe with some practice it won't be? My body is currently telling me this is an unsafe way to throw even though it may not be. I guess I'll try working up the power level.
I don't know anything but I feel my shoulder does this naturally when the shoulders turn or the back shoulder moves in the direction of the target. Presetting it might help. I think of the throw as a fluid swing and don't really isolate body parts but try to get everything working together smoothly. I've been watching Bradley William's form on his off-season videos and working on a smooth follow thru with slower discs. One thing I've felt which might not make sense is to keep the disc level with or slightly below my elbow during the full swing unless it's an anny shot. One cue is to think of keeping the disc under armpit height or moving it under the armpit and as flat as possible. This keeps me from dropping my elbow. Plus the shoulder is a ball joint (I think) it must swing under or over. I get better results swinging over on top of the disc. I tried punching the disc out with good distance but man you can feel the stress on the elbow. I'm all about maximizing the throw with the least wear and tear on my joints. I've seen TH-camrs say to twist the wrist during the throw also (briefcase turn the key thing) but that sounds crazy to me to twist you wrist which twist your elbow intentionally during a fast arm swing. It's like your elbow wrist and disc should stay on the swing plane through the swing in my experience. If something doesn't feel right don't do it. Everybody is different.
Another thing I'm messing with is thinking of the disc pivoting in my hand. There are a ton of grip videos and nose down so on videos but I haven't heard anyone talk about the disc pivot in the hand and that a grip isn't static. Like however u hold the disc doesn't matter as the discs starts to spin in your hand and your hand naturally grabs it and it pops out. I've got some high speed having it loose starting to spin it to the top palm then gripping it at the final point in the throw. Probably faster or as fast as any added body mechanics.
@@yoyoninjaboy6431yep. Start slow, listen to your shoulder. If it hurts, stop.
But often our brain is too cautious.
I have always wanted to do Tai Chi…so you have a suggestion to get started? A Book, video, etc.? Thanks
Its really best learned in person, from someone who really gets it.
My best advice is to find a local ‘push hands’ meet up and go train with people, find out who is good, and ask them who you should train with locally.
Anything is a good start, but there are alot of westerners teaching it that just teach the shapes / dance moves with very little understanding of the application or core ideas of the movements (still a good thing, but missing the depth of the art).
@@_TDGany videos or anything online you recommend?
@@DiscGolfAddictits so hard to learn internal martial arts in the first place… learning from a video is almost impossible.
I don't remember who said this (some youtuber I'm sure), but they suggested during your backswing, getting your shoulder under your chin. Not sure if that accomplishes the same thing or not.
I mean, kinda. But it also gets your bicep to close too your chest. It could work as a cue, but I would be more specific.
Was it the video where the guy was saying to keep your eye on the target as long as possible until your shoulder pushes your chin to turn? I just watched one that was talking about that
Knowing the why is so
Crucial for me. Just reach out doesn’t do it. Thank you!