Lot of truth in this text 😂. I feel blessed to have found a position in Singapore right after my PhD. They made me permanent after a year, a huge miracle!
@@सुनीलतोरानी I would say luck. I was here on the right project at the right moment (for a 2 years contract initially). My proposal afterwise went through and it changed everything, I became permanent.
I’m a first year PhD student here in the UK, and I love my research without any loss of enthusiasm. But this love ends with my PhD and not anything about academia. It’s so toxic, all I hear them speak of is papers, papers, grants, extremely toxic. I’m only here for the skills and experience. After that/prior to its end, industry is where I am gunning for!
@@tzvi7989 exactly my point. At the end of the day you need to provide value, and the metric in which it is measured will annoy the fuck out of you. How much money you created, saved, how much time to spent in the office versus someone else, How many papers did you write, did you help the schools ranking, did you create something that helps heal a ton of people but it lowers revenue for the pharma companies. There is no running away from that part of it I guess.
I find it intriguing that so many people are struggling with the decision to leave academia. For me, it was the easiest decision to make. I was so unhappy during my PhD that I was already looking and applying for industry jobs during the last few months before my defense.
I also left for the industry after my PhD - but did you find a good life there? I didn't it. Most jobs I had in the last 17 years were abusive, some more, some less. But a balanced good life: not found. So I became a frugalist, saving most of my income so that I can retire as early as possible.
@@christophdenner8878I've only made the transition half a year ago, so I'm still at my first industry job in a small engineering firm. I like it so far.
All very true. I am old now, graduated with a Ph.D. in Nuclear Physics from Arizona State University in 1991. Did at postdoc at MIT for 2 1/2 years. No academic jobs in the field anywhere to be found. The competition for the few associate professor positions offered was intense, chances of success to get one of those low. Decided to leave the field and do 'menial' Industry work instead. It paid well. This anecdotal first-hand bit to show that the issue (DO NOT DO A POSTDOC) is not new. Strangely I have no regrets about obtaining a Ph.D. degree as it is a fun, mind expanding experience. Was for me, at least.
Got my Masters in 1991…and also found no perm jobs available. Ended up in a teaching job that I hadn’t planned on, getting less compensation, opportunities for advancement and stability than if I had simply gone into a professional trade. BIG mistake with long term consequences.
As long as you can get a rate on the curriculum that does not require loans or to take much away from building your financial independence. To do science you need to be wealthy and paying exorbitant amounts for the program is counterproductive. Same with medical school, get tons of debt so you can go be an indentured servant for half a decade ... no thanks. IFF you can get the training without getting hustled/fleeced then you can use those skills to produce goods/services to sell outside of the USA. The USA has reached critical mass of regulation and the people capable of doing the work in these fields are waking up to the reality of the major scams this nation has set up, its going to get bad.
@@itechnwrite if your masters is in stem you can still do trade work. If you are say a EE with a PE you can go test for your administrators licence today. It would be a good idea to work with a real electrician but it will be from the standpoint of a 2nd lt vs an E1 private. Both "don't know anything" but the experience between the 2 is very different. At the very least you simply won't put up with it as a EE/PE as opposed to an 18 year old kid who is nieve.
So much truth. I hold a doctorate from none other than Oxford, and it still took me a few YEARS to find the right job outside of Science. The idea that PhD's are the key to opening any job opportunity is old and dated. If you are a doctoral candidate you have 2 choices: 1. you continue in your specific field, earning 30k a year and spending upwards of 60% of your time writing grant proposals rather than doing actual research, or 2. Get out of Science, but that is ONLY possible if (like it says in the vid) you have built bridges beforehand with potential employers. I chose option 2 without networking with employers, meaning I was then too old and not experienced enough at age 28 to enter 'junior' positions in any field except manual work. That's right, despite having a PhD in neuroscience.
Maybe stop leading with “you know I’m an Oxford/Yale/Colombia/Harvard man” (why do you all feel the need to give your fucking CV before I know you from Adam?) and you’ll vastly increase the number of people that don’t immediately discount you as a….I’m looking got for a word other than “twat” but it isn’t coming.
Symptoms of a crumbling society when you're as equally valued as an alcoholic laborer. I'm in the same boat, truth be told. The arts and sciences aren't just undervalued, they're admonished today. We are heading in a very dangerous direction.
Become an AI researcher. There is a lot of overlap with neurology, especially as more advanced AGI's are being developed. Lots of money and opportunities.
My wife described postdoc as 'purgatory for clever people'. She avoided it like the plague the second she got her PhD in food science and was fortunate enough to be able to go straight into R&D in Denmark as a researcher. She wholeheartedly agrees that postdocs do what lab technicians do in R&D, who typically only need to hold undergraduate degrees - they execute experiments and tests required by the research work spearheaded by researchers who are the PhD holders. Back home in Malaysia years later, she was offered to teach at a university due to her industry experience but the pay was insulting compared to what she was getting at the time as a Lead Researcher in R&D. Now she's in management and realized this is where the big money actually is. lol.
I left academia after 3.5 years of postdoc and joined the public sector. Best decision I have ever made. I do not regret the years spent pursuing PhD at all but regret not leaving academia sooner. Sure it is not all roses but trust me, it's miles better than the weight of uncertainty in academic limbo as a perpetual postdoc. If you are looking for a sign to exit academia, this is it.
Retired PhD, 70 years old. It's a different world today than it was 40 years ago and I probably wouldn't pursue the degree in the present environment. Young people go in loving their field, and then get eaten up by being forced to crank out mundane papers or work on applied research that never challenges their brains again. I left academia after six years and went to make some money ... glad I did.
Hello , I want to be a research in the field of neuroscience. I am about to go to university and my major is neuroscience. Is there any advice you can give me for when I’m done with my bachelor’s degree hopefully.
I'm coming towards the end of my PhD now and I have to admit, academia is the last place I want to end up. The amount of work, effort and reward for the roles just don't add up. My supervisor's supervisor when she was on her PhD died at a young(ish) age from heart problems due to stress and being overworked. The problem is for many people in my position, we cannot see where the other prospects lie and the potential paths. Through the academic door, there is a dull and flickering light. Through the 'industry' door, I see nothing but a dark room. Yet I am still drawn towards the dark room over the dimly lit one - which probably speaks volumes to the state of academia.
I wonder what gives you this bad perspective on industry. Yes, you have to apply for your projects. But even in academia you are not fully free to do what you want, you are still chasing the hype of the moment when you want funding. In industry at least you get well trained staff and decent equipment, and since there is usually a race on to monetize whatever you are working on, you can be sure that you work on the cutting edge of whatever field you are in, otherwise your company wouldn't bother with the work you do.
@@Volkbrecht it's not so much that it is a "bad" perspective on industry. It is just the fact that the path is not very well lit at all and it's hard to see exactly where it can lead. It's clear that the university, in pursuing your PhD qualification, is building you up to be an employee at their institution at least for a short while. They do not necessarily have the incentive to tell us about the much better opportunities lying elsewhere in industry.
One of the biggest traps is getting a PhD without any job experience before hand. Finish your degree, get some experience in the field THEN do your PhD
The problem is that if you get a job, you will start earning real cash, and your lifestyle will shift accordingly. Then, you will not want to give that all up and live like a poor person.
Moreso NETWORK so you already have a few feet behind the door you want to become indoctrinated "joke" into. Experience is great, but who you know is far more important these days.
That's not how academia works in Europe. The PhD is part of the education. "Dropping out" below that basically means entering a non-scientific career path. And it makes sense. I currently work in KSA, where it's apparently normal to start in industry with a Bachelors degree, then decide later whether or not to go to higher education. But these Bachelors are useless. They don't have the experience and mindest to be good technicians, and they have learned way too little to keep up with the real scientists.
I came from industry to academia and I found it better. My sleep got better and life happier. I feel much younger while dealing with students. There is too much corruption in industry. There is corruption in academia too, but nobody dies in academia, when you don't do your job. Imagine putting low quality materials in building or cutting corners when designing a power plant. Also, you see how much tax payers money is being simply pocketed. Academia was a salvation for me.
I can believe you 100%. Unfortunately it seems like there's no perfect harbor out there, but perhaps at least better ones. I'm happy you actually feel better in academia now. I guess it depends which types of nonsense we find easier to deal with. Considering I'd like to consider myself a person of high ethical standards and somebody who pills that we should always be striving to build a better world, I am not sure how long I could last in a dirty industry where people didn't have any scruples at all. As someone who is hard left of left, who seems to be getting more cynical about the thuggery of those that pull the strings by the day with no end in sight, I can only imagine the amorality and the absolute psychopathy even that takes place in high-level decision-making in an industry when the only thing that matters is extracting that very last buck or that last penny no matter how many lives might be compromised, harmed or being lost. And since government is always always on its knees to industry, and sometimes the other way around, but never EVER doing their job as the watchdog that they're supposed to, of course the cycle continues decade after decade and (for now), century after century. Do you think I'm exaggerating at all?? Or do you think I get it?
@@Krill_all_health_insuranceCEOs The comrade gets it. I wasn't keen on joining profit-only-seeking industries so I'll just stick in academia for the sake of my sanity, and best of luck.
exactly. industry is dirty, there's no meaning in it even if there's money there. industry can be toxic asf too. at least in academia, you're striving for something good. this is from someone who've worked "industry" or "corporate" before. my conscience is forever disturbed
@@felix-xd4mx I could see how also working for so-called defense/gov - eg, the Military-Industrial-Complex -can damage most aware folks because of the ethical implications. Perhaps working for Intel or one economically important / beneficial industry is okay if academia isn't an option. Albeit I hear Intel works - manufactures chips - for the defense sector/ military. But those jobs - from my investigation - are rare and hard to get. But also, academia is now unreliable: Academia sucks too if one doesn't make it, ie, become a professor and do quality research. The imbalanced ratio of PhDs to non-adjunct (professor) academic positions is mind-blowing. Most (~90%+) won't get the position, especially if one isn't from one of the very top schools. And even most of them don't get positions either. Prestige doesn't guarantee anything. Even if one does make it to professor - which is a very low % of Phds and is plummeting because of the oversupply of PhDs, and universities replacing professors with adjuncts (since it's cheaper), among other factors - meaningful science as a career is almost impossible unless one is part of the elite. They have more scientific freedom because of more funding, eg, MIT, etc. Professorship isn't the promised land. They have to fight for funding/grants and against other professors and market their research. Professorhip comes with a lot of caveats: Like professors having to do administrative tasks and that takes away time from doing research... etc. One would have to travel and do all the right things as a Postdoc - be from a top school, have the right networks, et al - and then perhaps that increases the chances a bit. But the chances are still slim and there are no guarantees because of the massive oversupply of PhDs applying to scarce positions. This is the state of the job market for most academia. But now we are talking about elitism - and arguably, nepotism - which can't be the path for all people. And again, even those guys are having low prospects. I did my research on academia and the future/job prospects before jumping into more college - I dropped out of undergrad - and it looks very bleak. (I came across this article and emailed it to Andy Stapleton and surprisingly enough - and in benefit of all's awareness - he made it into a video.) My condolences for all those PhDs having a tough time. As an alternative to Academia, I would much rather get an actual job/income that pays the bills, that can get me married, and that can buy me some scientific equipment for me to, on top of reading science as a hobby, also do experiments and study nature. I see this to be way better for me than (trying to get in)/(shooting for) academia.
I feel like I have stopped learning in my master/PhD. I just do grants all day. I don’t want to do research anymore. I hate it. So stressed because I feel like I have to start all over again
Universities exist to make money for themselves. Educating people is the product they sell, but universities do not care if the degree programs they provide end up being economically rewarding for their graduates. In fact, I would say that universities believe that thinking about the financial future of their students is beneath them. They believe that only trade schools are really concerned about that issue. And trade schools are low class and far beneath the dignity of a university. Most nations have let their universities get out of control. Politicians have cooperated with the university heads to pass laws that funnel more money to schools, and give them even greater monopolies on higher education. Average voters need to yell and scream at our politicians to remove the laws that give universities monopolies. We need to open things up so there is a lot more competition in higher education.
Not sure which country you are in, but in the US the amount of government funding for universities has been declining for decades, which has made college tuition vastly more expensive than in my day. A lot of politicians now don’t want to support K-12, let alone higher education.
@@aliannarodriguez1581 Are you aware that law in the U.S. makes it illegal to run a university in a metal shed? The most technologically advanced products in the world are made in metal sheds, but U.S. universities are forced to constantly build new buildings made of the most expensive materials. This is not about competition between schools, it is about government regulation creating unnaturally high expenses for universities that maintain monopolies for the established institutions. Harvard has more than enough money in the bank that they never have to charge any student a penny, but that's not part of their value system. Harvard isn't the only one, either. None of what U.S. universities do puts education forward as their main motivation.
4-year tuition needs to be forced to come way down one way or another, that much is true. They are indeed profit factories, otherwise why would tuition continually rise so steeply??? This has lead to the criminal and exploding student loan crisis. (in the US)
@@deezynarthe buildings are Privately owned that is why they keep them in tip top condition. The buildings are valuable assets for the super wealthy. The student is definitely not their priority. You're there to be financially fleeced to make the private owners wealthy. It's a big club, and you're not in it. The 1% are addicted to profit.
Here's the interesting thing, though: in Europe most universities are publicly funded, but the problems around higher education and the mismatch between supply and demand for graduates are mostly the same.
I was literally born into academia.(my entire family on both sides worked and lived in a prodigious research institute since long before i was born) 35 years later, I'm a bookkeeper instead because i got sick of the toxicity in the ivory towers. The academic life doesn't suit everyone.
Very helpful as a person who is just finishing his PhD. Would be great if you could make videos on the transition from PhD to industry , especially in non-comp sci engineering related fields.
You are clever and can work independently on complex problems. That's enough to start anywhere. Experience will follow. Don't let anyone convince you otherwise, even if you get rejected.
There is no "transition". You apply for jobs, then go to work once you got one. The people there will tell you what they expect from you. End of story.
The trades can be a good alternative, but it has its downsides too. Every single guy I've ever known in the manual trades is essentially crippled by the time they're 60. Hip replacements, knee replacements, shoulder surgery. I mean you'd think these guys were 87 if you saw most of them. A fair number of them die young from alcohol or opioid abuse, in some cases precipitated by the pain of chronic injuries. When they are working, it's often 60 or more hours a week, sometimes with daily commutes of three or four hours. It is a hell of a grind. The ones who work in solid union states make good money, but is it worth it if it takes 10 years off your life and 20 or more off of your quality years? In non-union states, a lot of them are making near minimum wage with no benefits at all.
@kenofken9458 General contractors, construction management, electricians, plumbers, HVAC, and those who transition from a worker to owning their own company, which is very easy and common will not harm them selves physically and will make as much or more than a doctor if they want to. My friend just maid 400k in a week profit simply scheduling subcontractors to fix a slate roof, add drainage around the building, and remove asbestos. He gets 20% of all the work, so on big multi million dollar jobs every phase he is making more in a week or month than the most successful people will make in a year. Also a lot of electricians can make thousands upon thousands a day and none of the work is really taxing on your body at all.
@@michaelstrang2563 From what you describe, it sounds like unless you're an electrician, you're either breaking your own body or (if you become the owner) making profit off breaking other's bodies in the same way that your body was being broken. Is that better?
@@kenofken9458 Here's a fun fact, though: manual labor doesn't HAVE to be crippling. I was taking an OSHA course once (I'm a lab-tec), and one of the instructors there told me a "funny" story: from the safety side, there is a lot of consciousness regarding the health demands of physical labor, and consequently, there is a lot of equipment and training available to mitigate that problem. But apparently there is a certain culture of toxic masculinity on construction sites where the workers among themselves shame people into performing feats of strength, like carrying heavy stuff without "wasting time" to get the lifting equipment, or not taking the recommended breaks for relaxing and stretching when working in uncomfortable positions.
Postdoc is only a transition post, do a max of 2 years and move to permant post in academia, or just go to industry. Look also for international opportunities.
Another great vid, Andy! Coming from the humanities, I would echo the same sentiments. If I didn't become self employed, I'm not sure what route I could've taken. The PhD encourages niche, but the more niche you go, the more niche your CV will be!
@@YamanoRyuu I would say a good idea would be how to videos. If you're a watcher of TH-cam you probably picked up some ideas on how to do videos better or how to create more engaging content. Some smaller channels would benefit from that type of content. That's the trend I'm seeing right now. Watching those how to vids made me realise I could start a channel too 😊✊
I wonder how many people actually think they will be in academia after their PhD? Even though this is anecdotal, a lot of PhD students I talk to, and myself included, don't want to go into academia. I wanted the short-term contract nomadic lifestyle, I learnt during my studies, and after getting my 1st job, I don't like staying in one place for too long, therefore having a 2-3 year contract works much better for me, and whenever I feel like settling down I will just go into industry. Most students I talk to have this similar mindset. I personally pursued the PhD for fun! I'm not concerned about the job market afterwards, cause when I was doing my undergrad and masters I received this same doom and gloom speech from others, but I found a job before I even graduated!
I've been debating this, I was offered a nice PhD in Montreal, and I want to do it for the experience and because I wanna learn more, but I've been scared whether I should do it or not because I don't want to work in academia and I'm scared finding a job after the PhD would be too hard 😅 (I'm in engineering)
@@esdras4657 it's up to you, getting offered good PhD positions is hard as well. I remember when I started applying I was anxious cause I heard how many tries it took my previous university supervisors before they were able to get one. I only applied to 3, and I got accepted by the 3rd one. It was fully funded for 42-months, and I don't have to teach or do anything other than the project during it. If you think the PhD gets you closer to working in jobs you desire, go for it. If you are doing it solely because you want to learn/contribute new knowledge, I still say go for it. You will get so many brilliant opportunities to network/gain experience during the PhD that will increase your employability in various sectors, if you are happy to move to a new area or country to pursue jobs you desire, you never have to be worried about employment. If you are scared of leaving your job to pursue a PhD, maybe see if your job offers opportunities to do further study whilst working? At my previous place of employment, I could have done a PhD whilst working there, but my project would have to be related to the department I was in and it would need to benefit said department. I didn't want the stress of working and doing a PhD, nor did I want to do a project related to the place I was working at. If your current job doesn't offer these opportunities, and you are set on staying employed whilst working, then find a job that does! There are many institutions that give opportunities for further study/qualifications.
@@alicianieto2822 my family certainly has no connections in the field I worked in, my dad was a bus driver and mother is a midwife. I wouldn't call it luck, because after a year working in my 1st permanent job, I was looking for jobs closer to home and I was offered positions easily, I turned them all down because I was also offered my PhD position. If you aren't making it to the interview stage, check your CV, ask others if you can see theirs and use it as a template, also ask people to check your CV. Before my permanent position, I was on a short term contract, I needed to apply for the permanent position so I asked my line manager at the time (who had experience conducting interviews for the job I was applying for, and has read countless CVs for it) and other people in my department to help me, and they kindly did. My line manager checked my personal statement, the answers I prepared for the interview, and my CV, and my co-worker sent me their CV and the answered they prepared for certain interview question so I had a template. When I was applying for a PhD, one of my supervisors for my masters degree sent me the project advert cause she thought it was a great fit for me, she also helped me extensively with my research statement, personal statement, academic CV and the presentation I needed to prepare for the interview. Maybe I have been lucky, because I have been surrounded by people who are willing to help me when I ask. Or maybe you just aren't asking for help enough? You're not guaranteed to get a job with this method, but it may at least point out errors in your applications that you can't see.
Worse is when you have to move between different countries with different languages. Moving between UK and Australia is easier than moving between Germany and France.
You selected the worst examples there. Two nations whose language isn't too relevant in the rest of the world, who don't like each other much and who tend to be a little butthurt when you live there without learning the language. And this is coming from a German ;)
@@Volkbrecht Yeah, but that is the truth. This is also perhaps one of the main reasons why the US is still the most popular destination for researchers to go (especially for Ph.D. and Postdoc work) despite Europe having far better living standards than the US.
How to identify and overcome the bad bits whilst doing a PhD. That's key. I'd like to hear more on this. Thanks for the video. Excellent as always. Cheers from San Antonio, Texas, USA.
I did 1.5 years of a 2 year Post doc back in 1993 at Stanford University. I bailed out early and it was my best decision ever. Academia has always been a scam. It was funny when I resigned the professor I worked for was shocked that I left. Afterwards I founded the Ex Post Doc Society which helped Post Docs get jobs outside of Academia. Get out soon.
I'm 5 years into the program now! Lost last 2 years due to personal issues! I've never been the same since! School doesn't care about you! They just want that degree pumped out! I'm out of funds and still can't get a fucking meeting with advisor! Too scared to quit because I'm an international in the USA and my parents spent a lot of money on school! I'm yet to finish my proposal defence! Have been locked up my room for days at times! Smoked pot and drank for months at a stretch! Feeling like stagnant water sucks! And the worse case there is nothing you can do about it! You're at the mercy of the advisors and on thier timeline to meet and schedule things! I'm 30 now! My 20s feels wasted! Just need some guidance now! Used all the things Andy taught me to publish my first paper though.!
I got a professional job towards the end of my PhD... not even in my field. Finished it off while earning a salary. It also started with running out of money after some issues extended my PhD and I started doing silly part time jobs just for some cash... then when I added up the time in the part time jobs, I decided to go full time and in a professional job.
Sometimes you just have to admit you made a mistake, and that research is not for you. Obviously it is taking a huge toll on your health. The people who succeed at it love it and crave it, and are willing to take low salaries if it means they get to do more of it. Best to stop whacking your head up against it and go do something you actually enjoy.
sad but true... I just finished my phd... after 2 MSc... in search of postdoc I discovered is super competitive and that the money is short...and that I might need to be there another 4-6 years... 2-3 positions? I kind of regret believing the Academia fallacy; I still love science... but resources are limited, bullying is more common really common (is the norm), there are no jobs. Isn't that I am quitting Academia, there's no space, no job, is underpaid, they require more than 60 hours per week... my last 1.5 years without funding... transitioning to the real world.
To your comment on 8:05, there is no way all the PhDs you ask would choose to do their PhDs again. Many days I wish I hadn't done mine. So there you go, it's not 100%.
I left a Physics PhD program. Two big reasons, though there were more. I had passed the Qualifier Exam but not started on a thesis. That was my exit point. One is that I saw professors dealing with writing grant proposals, writing other things, managing students, managing other stuff, organizing, and hardly ever getting their hands on the lab equipment. Professors are more like executives than hands-on explorers of the frontiers of knowledge. That's not strictly true for everyone, but it's the pattern. The other reason was I loved getting my hands on sensors, building electronic gizmos, fiddling knobs, tweaking things to get more signal out of the noise. The academic path does allow that, but working as an engineer at a manufacturer of sensors or electronic thingamabobs is a *lot* more like that. And pays better! I was getting tired of living in a bare bones way, my only furniture a cheap metal folding chair, a desklamp, and a cheap estate sale bed. At the time, it was easy to get into software. Anyone who could make an LED blink by writing machine code on a microprocessor could get a job. So I did! No regrets.
I did a PhD as a challenge and proud of it. Publishing was enjoyable and that's a good milestone. You learn something interesting. When I looked at doing post-docs I realised that, wasn't for me.... as a career it's not a great thing. You have two jobs, teaching and research. It's up to you to make something from it.
Indeed I thought the industry is better than academia long term , but what do I know 🤷♀️ .I guess one learns best from doing. Love your insightful videos Andrew !
During my phd, i was so depressed because there was always a pressure and experiments sometimes not working out. Add on financial problems and health problems of parents as well. Then I made up my mind and after my PhD, i took up a wonderful position in the publishing industry. Needless to say that I am truly blessed and happy 🧿 positive work environment, you get to be yourself, encouraging bosses, no work on weekends, no work after the usual work hours ❤ im just grateful.
Can only speak for myself but, yes, undertaking a science PhD was the biggest mistake I ever made. Should've gone straight into industry after A levels, learned a technical / engineering trade & business on the job + law or CS/SE via distance learning or night school. Even back in the day the mood music was that science PhD courses were churning out 'slightly brainy' lab technicians not Paul Diracs.
Most companies are mainly looking for lab technicians in manufacturing and quality control. Here in Germany we have a very good apprenticeship system. I totally regret not having done an apprenticeship as a lab technician at one of the mega corporations instead of studying. A phd is actually overkill for most jobs that are on the market. Most phd roles are leading roles where you manage people and don`t really do reasearch and honestly it´s not the kind of work I want to do, but it`s where the money is. Research and development positions are rarer than the number of PhDs. And it seems like there are more PhDs than Masters, so that for many research and development roles which even a Masters could easily handle, they are expecting a Phd. Honestly, industry jobs suck. But they pay way better and you don`t have the publish or perish pressure.
@@maythesciencebewithyou Completely agree with the apprenticeship route - the studying and research projects can always be done later and arguably hold more relevance against a groundng in a real world commercial/industry lab & business experience and life. Not that I'd stop anyone doing a first and higher degree straight after school, I just think for most people, who will never be top level researchers, a PhD is as you rightly observe overkill.
@@aliannarodriguez1581 An amusing fact about Dirac is when he formulated what's known as Dirac notation, he called it 'bra' and 'ket' ; later insisting he didn't know that a bra was women's underwear.
*There was an article in SCIENCE back in the 1990s* that stated there were too many PhDs and they will have issues what you just stated. This was way back in the 1990s. Its WORSE now!!
Everything is saturated now. Everything. I feel like, as an old millennial, this happened some time after high school. You need to be in the top 5 or 10 percent or whatever to get anything desirable now. We're out of physical space in desirable cities, so i hope you're a top ten percent earner because that's the only realistic way to buy a house once we're out of space to develop new houses. Want a desirable job? Same thing, degree doesn't mean anything. You need to be a top performer with exceptional skills and experience. I feel like the average person making it through even a high level PhD program is pretty well doomed. It doesn't help that admission standards have plummeted to grow class sizes and revenue.
Same, old millennial here too. I think it's a good start to recognise market saturation. Many don't recognise this due to passion, and find themselves reaching burn out in a hyper competitive space. It doesn't make sense to compete for the obvious prizes. I don't have an answer here, because it's something I'm looking for too. I think it's important to do things you normally wouldn't. Go uncommon places, meet uncommon people. Enter another industry, find the singular time and place where there's little to no competition for you. "Go after inspiration with a club".
What of if you are in an environment where you can't get a job? For instance, many African immigrants cannot get professional jobs in Europe because of their skin color despite having their BSc and MSc from Europe.
PhD in theoretical physics. I got a job right out of grad school because I was lucky that a friend I did homework with in college was at a successful job and recommended me… I didn’t have any other prospects, it’s incredibly hard to find the job right out of grad school folks.
I saw the writing on the wall soon enough to stop at a MSc. I was lucky enough to get a tech job in a teaching hospital. I escaped from the research lab by becoming a Med Lab tech (which did not require an MSc). Over the course of my career the labs I worked in turned out a number of MScs in Microbiology and Molecular Biology. The graduates with those degrees saw the writing on the wall. Two of them are now paramedics (which they did not need a MSc for). One went to work in the auto industry some went to dental school or Med school, and the others left for various non-science jobs. So many of the people who graduated with me left the field after one or two years working at low paid tech jobs. And now my country whines that we need more scientists and then hires them from outside the country. Non of my children went into the sciences. They wanted to actually earn a living.
Why not just become a school teacher or start a private tutoring practice? I don't understand why we toil away so much in this area when we know it's full of corruption, stress, depression, etc.. Like was said in the article, no one does a PhD for the money, so then it just begs the question of why we do this? You mentioned prestige kind of jokingly, but I do think this genuinely motivates a lot of people. I know for myself, I always enjoyed just making my work look professional and academic-like, but when I realized that this is just the expectation when starting a PhD, I'm realizing that a lot of this really just comes down to factors out of your control and caring so much about being prestigious is filled with emptiness. Curious to hear other people's thoughts.
I am working on a PhD with a specialization in general psychology. While I think your video holds an interesting perspective, it also is good to understand the intent for each individual wanting to pursue a PhD. There are many other routes other than being hired by a university to extend the knowledge to others. For example, creating a website for consulting, education, independent research, and more. This is an optimal time to get the PhD and for this very reason. It is good not not equate knowledge with monetary gain. Perhaps evaluating your intentions, goals, and pursuits is the best way to evaluate the choice instead of placing a value of "good" or "not so good" on the endeavor based solely on hiring statistics ( look more on the qualitative rather than the quantitative). The numbers can be informative. However, there is more to measure and understand.
I remember reading this article back in 1999 when I was getting my PhD. When my advisor said I should spend a fifth year in the PhD program and then do a post doc for a couple of years, I said, that's three years, and three years equals law school, so I'll do that instead.
Hello Andy. I am doing post docs. from 2013. I did my PhD from India in computational fluid dynamics. Then I moved to Portugal to do my first post doc in 2013. Then in 2015, I moved to Brazil to do my second post doc in UnB. Since then I am in Brazil. Changing universities after universities. I am trying to escape from this post doc trap.
I always had a desire to do PhD since 18 19th years old (now I am 25) but I have nothing to do with title or getting rich. I just work for myself and I just want to discover something and make an innovation. I want to find something so that the world changes or contribute to the human health. I love to be around the people that they have same interest with me. I love to talk science and solve problems with them. So I have no other option to do PhD to continue these desires. You tell me what can I do other? Even PhD is hard and you have difficulties with people. I have no chance to care because I want to discover something and do research.
I was an engineering manager at a US Department of Energy Laboratory. I used to feel sorry for the Biology post-docs. I had electronics technicians that made more money than them. Me? - I retired from the University of California at 55.
Thanks as always for your videos, Andrew! Agreed with some other folks that it would be interesting if you had some content in the future discussing the realities of the industry/"alt. academic" market places and what perhaps folks in your network in those positions could pass along to PhDs trying to escape academia about how to tackle this transition. Personally, like others have said here, it's a no brainer for me to want to leave academia. The alt. ac. job markets though have just been so bad in past years that it feels like for me and many others that we have been trapped on the academic/postdoc treadmill not by choice, but because there are so few opportunities to get out that you have to stay if you want any semblance of pay or insurance (at least in the US). I'm sure this is field specific of course (neurobiologist here not doing neurodegenerative work, so whomp whomp), but would really be interested to see if you were able to find a way to produce some more videos addressing those topics to help inform the next gen of academic hopefuls about what to expect on the other side once they fully commit to leaving academia!
I feel sorry for PHD students because you kind of have to understand that someone who graduated with a PHD say 2023 has had a long run. I mean say a bsc is 3 years than masters 2 years than phd 4 years. That is almost ten years. Which means that they started their BSC degree in 2014, the world was kind of different then. We did not have brilliant videos/channels like this then. I do not have a PHD, but I regret studying even BSC in engineering, the marke is saturated and the academic system is not what it was in the 80s/90s.
@@aeiou0123 well thanks for reply have found a job in sales/logistics, would definetly call it underemployed but I have no time to be picky right now so will choose it and hopefully do well.
You can become an industrial research scientist in industrial research institutes with better work life balance and financial stability. The title may be misleading into thinking that all scientist positions are problematic.
Seems smarter to do a PhD in engineering. You're doing research. You're doing science. But you're focused (ideally) on problems that are much more likely to make you valuable in the real world.
Hi Andrew, thanks for this great video. Well, yesterday I decided to leave academia now for good and told it my PI. We both agreed that I just don't have the best starting conditions for a good academic career anymore, since my doctor father just screwed up my career. But I am really happy he was supportive and I will make the best out of my PostDoc now. Learning more skills and also finishing my projects. And then I will see where I go and in the meantime I start something for myself! Thanks for having this great mission. This is essential and I started to tell Master students what they might await at the other side! Thanks and have a great day!
This is so true. I completed my honours in chemistry and I couldn’t even find an entry-level job. Now I’m doing my masters in engineering medical engineering and I’m planning on either going to teacher college or medical school because that’s better than doing any research or being any scientist because of the lifestyle.
So true. I bought a house at the age of 37 because I had a 3 year research grant and that was as much financial security as I had ever had. But when that ran out I had to rent the house out and move to another city for my next job. When I was there I said to a Professor of Surgery, 'If I had known that I was going to spend all those years at university and end up in medical research, I should have done a medical degree first, then a PhD so I had a proper job to fall back on when the grant ran out'. He said: 'We have a graduate medical degree program. You could easily get in.' I thought for a second or two about how I would support myself for four years and then realised I had never wanted to be a doctor. Or a lawyer. In fact I had not known what I wanted to be when I grew up, so I did a Bachelor of Science. Then they offered me a scholarship to do a PhD and things followed from there. Thing is it turned out that I was a really good scientist according to my supervisor, thesis examiners, referees of the half dozen papers I wrote during my candidature and others whose opinions I respect, and who expected me to go far. And I really liked working on ideas at the cutting edge of science and had a quite a lot of autonomy. Friends of mine went in to industry but that was not what I wanted to do, so I don't regret my choices. But it really should not be so hard for people like me.
So true. Liked my phd. Left academia after my first postdoc. Wish i did it before, just after phd graduation. But, quite frankly, how can a phd supervisor prepare the phd students to land a career outside of academia when he/she does not have any such experience whatsoever? I am not trying to be nasty simply I cannot get what you would like academia to do...
if I spent 4 years of my life and all I got for it was that title it'd be worth it. It's so hard to go back after you've exited the academic world. I'm just an Msc now and still jealous of those 3 letters.
I don't think it is just Ph.d's, most of what you said seems to apply across the scale of educated/trained individuals when it comes to working for someone else. Especially having your vision of what the career will look like vs. what the career actually is when you arrive.
Phd is overrated, and money was is inefficient , risky proposition. I believe that things like neural link will allow later to get the knowledge of what ever field we like and then it result that many people start own business and who know what business relations will be in the future.
Another harsh reality is that many industries are not interested in hiring people with advanced degrees because of the belief that there will be a demand for a higher salary. When I was considering going for a PhD, 30 years ago, I got some great advice. If you want to teach at a university, go for the doctorate. Otherwise, your Masters degree will be just fine. During the 40 years I worked in the private sector, I saw businesses hire people who had no academic accreditation relating to a job.
I left academia few years ago after many years of postdoc in Boston, MA. I found that industry so much better. Better pay (3 times more than a postdoc salary), better work life balance. etc... Although I tell everybody who is in academia to switch to industry, I feel bad for them right now. The job market is just crazy because of so many layoffs in the biotech sector here in MA. For many entry scientific position, there are so many candidate applying for same position (up to 200). I hope the situation changes soon for the better!
I did my PhD in the 90s, absolutely regret about it. As long as you have the interest and discipline, you can learn and achieve as much as a PhD in your job. I absolute hate the pointless politics and bureaucracy generated in a non-profit environment. As soon as I was done, I immediately quitted and looked for a job in London. The worst of all are that 1) you are a late starter in career comparing to other people, 2) employers regard you as tech people, hard to steer into managerial role. So I need to have a plan to speed my career in technical field. Picked on an emerging technology (major luck hit the right one), publicly wrote a lot about it and published a series of softwares. It was like having two jobs. Eventually, my career made a several leaps after Fortune 50 company license my software. I was so lucky.
This is a topic close to home. I started a PhD in climate science in Australia in 2005 and graduated in 2014. Couldn't get any research related roles after finishing. I had no choice but to pivot. In the years that followed, I ended up working in customer service before being given a chance to work in finance/accounts receivable. I appreciate all the people and organisations that took a chance on me. It's been a tough slog to get to this point. Do I regret doing a PhD? For the most part, no, but as I've gotten older (now in my early 40s), a small part of me regrets doing a PhD. What it does produce however, is excellent workers no matter what industry they go into.
I like how you did not go into banter against all PhDs, but encouraged us to kind of "customize" the PhD experience to benefit us best. I think this is sound advice against being too naive about making decision to do a PhD.
I thought about doing more than my BSEE but Masters and PhD's are a dime a dozen now. You only need the basic degree since over time people only care about your real skills. Master's and PhD's will be harder to justify looking at the costs now.
I don't regret having spent years on my PhD as it provided me with the skills and authority to pursue a career as a freelancer and feel independent to live my life as I wanted and not as the toxic academia wanted.
At this point I can only want my physics doctorate for my own intellectual enrichment; for the good of my students; and as a personal triumph. Nothing else pencils out.
1:29 we don't make twice as many PhDs as there are academic jobs, we make twice as many PhDs as there are in ALL jobs for them. It's probably more like 20:1 in terms of academic positions. I honestly do not understand why anyone bothers with 99% of Postdoc jobs, you're earning McDonald's wages for doing serious work and getting treated like a dumb mutt the whole time. Just get an industry job.
I am just about to appy for a PhD (humanities tho) and this does soud scary. I want to do it because I simply find my discipline exciting. I will most probably do it. I am not interested in building a career outside of academia, so I don't feel that I am missing out on something. But I am definitely terrified that it will ruin my relationships - that instability, moving all the time...
The question for me is more so: Where to go? A PhD isn't quite the option for me for several reasons, but the thing is, what I enjoyed in the time I studied physics and math was the creativity used to work on math problems, the hands on experience on seeing how things work in experiments, the feeling of beauty when I saw nature being described by math, the way I could be social by solving problems together. I'm pretty lost, I didn't connect to how the culture in physics was influenced by wanting to make it more useful for industry already, so I'm not sure how going to industry is going to solve that problem.
@@fizban974 I kind of don't see our world lacking in technology personally, I see it more lacking in humanity. I think our biggest problems are more so political, social, psychological, and since I don't have a lot of fun playing with tech, I feel like I'd be wasting my time. I know it's ironic since I am writing on the internet, but I also couldn't stare at a screen with code all day. I'm not sure it really came across in my comment, but I enjoyed physics and math from a standpoint where I enjoyed that human sense of wonder and sharing that with others. I don't think I could lie to an employer telling them I care about making their product they designed to fall apart after warranty just a little bit faster.
@@toni2309 Unfortunately that's the real world out there - money making machine and we are just cogs chasing money to survive. I think I'm in the same boat as you. I live for natural philosophy but with the state of academia, it is simply not feasable as a career, it is too risky and I think I'll leave it as a hobby. I've switched my majors between physics, biochemistry, and engineering, pondering at this situation. I would've love to be a scientist by profession but the world doesn't value them. Money in the other hand is valued, so now I think I'm going to study engineering. It is the least worst of careers for me I think. I'll basically work 40 hours a week and buy a lab and books and start doing what I want. Sad world. I was depressed for days trying to accept this. I think it's better to have money even though you might not like your job (although you never know, there are quite some exciting engineering jobs) and not worry about money and have money for your hobbies.
@@toni2309 if you're looking for the sense of wonder of discovering and sharing new things I'd say 1) get out of academia asap. There it's all about grants, not science, not wonder. 2) you may find that in private R&D. The assumption that corporate R&D is soulless - as you seem to imply - is outdated and plainly wrong (eg GenAI was invented in Microsoft, not academia).
I'm a 1st year PhD scholar and I'm thinking of taking a job instead of pursuing PhD as I'm not able to understand how to navigate through PhD.. everything is just so confusing...
i was emotionally abused in my phd program and it completely destroyed my confidence. i left with a masters degree and am working with a therapist to even get back into the workforce. i had considered doing some type of engineering (instead of astrophysics) after undergrad and really wish i did. i am now years behind my peers in terms of skills and experience
I loved biology throughout high school and even entered a biomedical science program my first year of uni. I realized I didn’t want to waste my time on med school, and even if I was interested in research there was zero money in that and no one cared about that. Thankfully I switched to nursing, best decision of my life.
Got a BS in electrical engineering emphasizing CPU design, earned while working full time office job, taking classes at nights. Graduated in 2002, height of the tech bubble burst. Never worked even 1 day in the field. Use the math from that degree to do predictive modeling, making a decent salary. Thought about getting my masters in math, then realized I'm mid 50s now. It would cost me more for that degree than any potential salary change could ever justify. And going part time, it would take me minimum 4 years, possibly more. Meaning I'd be 60-ish then. My BSEE has a lot of the requirements for an MS program in math, but not all. So I would need to take at least a semester or two of undergrad math, paying graduate level tuition for them. Screw that.
I am super lucky. I got a great tenure-track professorship very early in my career. I didn't have to move, I have wonderful colleagues, and a supportive administration. It is a gamble to chase the dream, but sometimes it really pays off. Well, not "pays", but you know what I mean. :)
For the lucky few it does. For the vast majority it doesn`t. Most graduates are better off in industry. However, the demand for scientists in industry isn`t as high as the number of graduates. But you can salvage your PhD to work in something research unrelated, even if that wasn`t your goal. It would honestly make more sense if most students just did a company apprenticeships and be trained to do the jobs that are in demand by the companies themselves.
I'm an entrepreneur for 7 years and now wanting to go into a PhD in biostatistics/data science (it's about 3 years in France). But that's a strategic move because I want later to specialise applying statistical modelling to bio medical science.
There are alternatives to academia for a Phd, depending on your discipline. I entered Pharmaceutical manufacturing with my PhD in chemistry (and post grad diploma in Bioinformatics). Its rewarding and there is a lot of work
I feel so sad and overwhelmed by the reality of science. I'm struggling a lot to find a PhD and I cannot stop thinking about all the red flags I'm ignoring... but what else can I do? Is there even another path to research?
If you have a Masters, you can apply for a research associate positions in industry. If you can get one of those, after some years you can move up to a proper scientist position. With a PhD you can start at the scientist position. But there are many more leves above that, depending on how big the company is. So basically, you don`t really need a phd to do research in industry. However, with how many people are making PhDs, companies are more likely to take a phd for a research associate position. As you can see, even a phd won`t guarantee that you will get a research scientist position industry, at least not right after your graduation. Most PhDs end up becoming managegers though and most of those are not for research, but for manufacturing and quality control. Your job will then just be to lead a group. You get to make the decisions, however, the actualy research is done by those working for you. If all you want is just to work on some research project. Then you can just join a lab as a lab tech. If you are lucky, you can have a PI who won`t oppose hearing out and considering your ideas. Even as a Postdoc, you would still have your PI above you who makes the decision on what you can research. When you manage to become a professor, you get to chose the research in your lab, however, you won`t have the time to do research youreslf. You`ll be reading papers, correcting papers, looking for grants, but so far I`ve only seen one Professor still occassionally doing experiments in the lab. Can you even call that doing research when all you are is the manager? A lab tech in academia is paid shit, but you can also be a lab tech for a scientist in industry in the research and development department. Pay is better, but still shit compared to what the phds who manage you make. But compared to academia, in industry you can even move up the ranks starting as a simple lab tech who only has a bachelors. It will however take you much longer to reach a scientist position. The best path, with the lowest chance of happening, to research is winning the lotery and building your own hobby lab. Science was once a hobby for the rich after all, which is why academia sucks so much, especially when you come from a poor background.
Typically, if you wanted to be leading research and writing papers etc then you really need a PhD but if you want to be involved in research without a specific need to be a lead author or PI then a degree or masters is fine with some experience.
I have a just BSc and 13.5 years of microbiology/virology research experience, almost 10 years in the private sector and because of the current 2023-2024 economy so many private sector associate/junior scientist or senior research engineers are getting laid off and the few research jobs still hiring are in the public sector and academia and no one wants to hire someone too experienced.
And from the other perspective, when perma-students do concede and move into industry they’re institutionalised and not particularly useful at… working.
I think PhD is the same as building your own company as CEO. Self-discipline , power and whatever it happens never give up are so important traits. And like CEOs, PhD students should be assertive , actively speaker, communicater and open with high self confidence on public like CEOs.
These videos are informative but as a recent Physics/Astrophysics graduate thinking of applying to graduate schools, they are also unbelievably depressing and soul crushing. I feel so lost and don't know if I should even go for the P.h.D I've wanted for so long. At the same time industry sounds montonous and equally soul crushing but at least I don't have to work ridiculous hours for decades to maybe get a tenure track position. Being a scientist is my dream but I'm not willing to be exploited and hinge decades of my life on a maybe.
It is fascinating to look at what happens to the PhD students at a university like Macquarie. They put through a lot of PhD in physics but they aren’t the best students, because they don’t get good quality undergraduates. So after 10 years you have students who are still on postdocs, data scientists, programmers and administrators and some Chinese who have disappeared probably into military research. No one at 10 years has a research or academic position in the Western world. Anyone looking at a PhD should check the number of PhD awarded, compared to the number of staff. Some departments have so many PhD it is impossible for them to get decent jobs.
As the second year of my second post-doc was flying by, I became uncharacteristically snarky regarding the prospects, pay, and promises made to me. The PI put me in my place immediately by stating the following, "Now you listen to me: A scientist in the adjacent laboratory is working FOR FREE, generating data for his own grant. His wife is supporting him and their family". I decided I could not compete with scientists willing to work for free. The next day I started looking for a job; the first job I landed did NOT require a PhD. My heart is heavy for all the bright folks with newly minted doctorates.
What incentive do advisors or universities have to prepare Ph.D. students for employment outside of the academy? Advisors and universities aren't interested in skills in benefits that do not benefit research and raising grant money. At best, particular advisors or programs may have affiliations with industrial partners they get research funding from, and therefore may direct students toward after graduation.
The second part you said "at best", that sounds like a huge deal and a huge incentive. Out of curiosity, why is it not "at least"? Is it rare or there's like a competing interest?
@@tinyleopard6741 You may already know this, but i'll clarify just to be sure: "at best" usually means "in the most optimal plausible scenario" in this context, often with a negative/pessimistic tone. It doesn't mean that it's the ideal situation, just the best you may get from something (but without much expectation)
If you want to know more about the secret inner workings of academia - check out this video next: th-cam.com/video/Zr6r3qUaEVs/w-d-xo.html
It's fraudulent! lol
Lot of truth in this text 😂. I feel blessed to have found a position in Singapore right after my PhD. They made me permanent after a year, a huge miracle!
What’s your citizenship? And is it easy to find job as a scientist if you’re a foreigner?
Is it easy as a foreigner to find permanent position ? Or luck by chance ?? Please please answer this ques
@@सुनीलतोरानी I would say luck. I was here on the right project at the right moment (for a 2 years contract initially). My proposal afterwise went through and it changed everything, I became permanent.
@@whitepouch0904 French
@@सुनीलतोरानी
Or maybe it is just skill.
If somebody is contributing, there is more reason to keep them.
I’m a first year PhD student here in the UK, and I love my research without any loss of enthusiasm. But this love ends with my PhD and not anything about academia. It’s so toxic, all I hear them speak of is papers, papers, grants, extremely toxic. I’m only here for the skills and experience. After that/prior to its end, industry is where I am gunning for!
I am gunning for a lottery win and then work in my own hobby lab. If only the odds weren`t so low.
And In industry it all about productivity, creating value, visibility. You’ll always find something to complain about. It’s all a toxic mess.
It’s also toxic in the industry. I had a burnt out.
@@TheHermitProcess biomedical research should create value though
@@tzvi7989 exactly my point. At the end of the day you need to provide value, and the metric in which it is measured will annoy the fuck out of you. How much money you created, saved, how much time to spent in the office versus someone else, How many papers did you write, did you help the schools ranking, did you create something that helps heal a ton of people but it lowers revenue for the pharma companies. There is no running away from that part of it I guess.
I find it intriguing that so many people are struggling with the decision to leave academia. For me, it was the easiest decision to make. I was so unhappy during my PhD that I was already looking and applying for industry jobs during the last few months before my defense.
I also left for the industry after my PhD - but did you find a good life there? I didn't it. Most jobs I had in the last 17 years were abusive, some more, some less. But a balanced good life: not found. So I became a frugalist, saving most of my income so that I can retire as early as possible.
@@christophdenner8878well thats 95% of jobs for u in capitalism lol
sunk cost fallacy in action
@@christophdenner8878I've only made the transition half a year ago, so I'm still at my first industry job in a small engineering firm. I like it so far.
Without your PHD you wouldn’t have gotten those jobs though.
All very true. I am old now, graduated with a Ph.D. in Nuclear Physics from Arizona State University in 1991. Did at postdoc at MIT for 2 1/2 years. No academic jobs in the field anywhere to be found. The competition for the few associate professor positions offered was intense, chances of success to get one of those low. Decided to leave the field and do 'menial' Industry work instead. It paid well. This anecdotal first-hand bit to show that the issue (DO NOT DO A POSTDOC) is not new. Strangely I have no regrets about obtaining a Ph.D. degree as it is a fun, mind expanding experience. Was for me, at least.
I mean also u can work for companies doing stuff in the field?
Menial, yet pays the bills... unlike "groundbreaking" work at below-poverty compensation.... I'll take the former
Got my Masters in 1991…and also found no perm jobs available. Ended up in a teaching job that I hadn’t planned on, getting less compensation, opportunities for advancement and stability than if I had simply gone into a professional trade. BIG mistake with long term consequences.
As long as you can get a rate on the curriculum that does not require loans or to take much away from building your financial independence. To do science you need to be wealthy and paying exorbitant amounts for the program is counterproductive. Same with medical school, get tons of debt so you can go be an indentured servant for half a decade ... no thanks. IFF you can get the training without getting hustled/fleeced then you can use those skills to produce goods/services to sell outside of the USA.
The USA has reached critical mass of regulation and the people capable of doing the work in these fields are waking up to the reality of the major scams this nation has set up, its going to get bad.
@@itechnwrite if your masters is in stem you can still do trade work. If you are say a EE with a PE you can go test for your administrators licence today. It would be a good idea to work with a real electrician but it will be from the standpoint of a 2nd lt vs an E1 private. Both "don't know anything" but the experience between the 2 is very different.
At the very least you simply won't put up with it as a EE/PE as opposed to an 18 year old kid who is nieve.
1999... and 25 years later this is sadly relatable. The system is outdated.
So much truth. I hold a doctorate from none other than Oxford, and it still took me a few YEARS to find the right job outside of Science. The idea that PhD's are the key to opening any job opportunity is old and dated. If you are a doctoral candidate you have 2 choices: 1. you continue in your specific field, earning 30k a year and spending upwards of 60% of your time writing grant proposals rather than doing actual research, or 2. Get out of Science, but that is ONLY possible if (like it says in the vid) you have built bridges beforehand with potential employers. I chose option 2 without networking with employers, meaning I was then too old and not experienced enough at age 28 to enter 'junior' positions in any field except manual work. That's right, despite having a PhD in neuroscience.
Maybe stop leading with “you know I’m an Oxford/Yale/Colombia/Harvard man” (why do you all feel the need to give your fucking CV before I know you from Adam?) and you’ll vastly increase the number of people that don’t immediately discount you as a….I’m looking got for a word other than “twat” but it isn’t coming.
It doesn't help that recruiters and HR tend to avoid hiring PHD's for dumb reasons as well.
Symptoms of a crumbling society when you're as equally valued as an alcoholic laborer. I'm in the same boat, truth be told. The arts and sciences aren't just undervalued, they're admonished today. We are heading in a very dangerous direction.
Become an AI researcher. There is a lot of overlap with neurology, especially as more advanced AGI's are being developed. Lots of money and opportunities.
Did you appreciate that your college would be demanding upwards of £300K per annum for your services as a researcher from your industrial partners?
My wife described postdoc as 'purgatory for clever people'. She avoided it like the plague the second she got her PhD in food science and was fortunate enough to be able to go straight into R&D in Denmark as a researcher. She wholeheartedly agrees that postdocs do what lab technicians do in R&D, who typically only need to hold undergraduate degrees - they execute experiments and tests required by the research work spearheaded by researchers who are the PhD holders. Back home in Malaysia years later, she was offered to teach at a university due to her industry experience but the pay was insulting compared to what she was getting at the time as a Lead Researcher in R&D. Now she's in management and realized this is where the big money actually is. lol.
I left academia after 3.5 years of postdoc and joined the public sector. Best decision I have ever made. I do not regret the years spent pursuing PhD at all but regret not leaving academia sooner. Sure it is not all roses but trust me, it's miles better than the weight of uncertainty in academic limbo as a perpetual postdoc. If you are looking for a sign to exit academia, this is it.
Retired PhD, 70 years old. It's a different world today than it was 40 years ago and I probably wouldn't pursue the degree in the present environment. Young people go in loving their field, and then get eaten up by being forced to crank out mundane papers or work on applied research that never challenges their brains again. I left academia after six years and went to make some money ... glad I did.
Hello , I want to be a research in the field of neuroscience. I am about to go to university and my major is neuroscience. Is there any advice you can give me for when I’m done with my bachelor’s degree hopefully.
I'm coming towards the end of my PhD now and I have to admit, academia is the last place I want to end up. The amount of work, effort and reward for the roles just don't add up. My supervisor's supervisor when she was on her PhD died at a young(ish) age from heart problems due to stress and being overworked.
The problem is for many people in my position, we cannot see where the other prospects lie and the potential paths. Through the academic door, there is a dull and flickering light. Through the 'industry' door, I see nothing but a dark room. Yet I am still drawn towards the dark room over the dimly lit one - which probably speaks volumes to the state of academia.
I wonder what gives you this bad perspective on industry. Yes, you have to apply for your projects. But even in academia you are not fully free to do what you want, you are still chasing the hype of the moment when you want funding. In industry at least you get well trained staff and decent equipment, and since there is usually a race on to monetize whatever you are working on, you can be sure that you work on the cutting edge of whatever field you are in, otherwise your company wouldn't bother with the work you do.
Dying of stress has got to be one of the worst ways to go about
@@Volkbrecht it's not so much that it is a "bad" perspective on industry. It is just the fact that the path is not very well lit at all and it's hard to see exactly where it can lead. It's clear that the university, in pursuing your PhD qualification, is building you up to be an employee at their institution at least for a short while. They do not necessarily have the incentive to tell us about the much better opportunities lying elsewhere in industry.
One of the biggest traps is getting a PhD without any job experience before hand. Finish your degree, get some experience in the field THEN do your PhD
Or just stick with your job and move up the career ladder internally.
The problem is that if you get a job, you will start earning real cash, and your lifestyle will shift accordingly. Then, you will not want to give that all up and live like a poor person.
@@andyiswonderful Unless you are the kind of person who doesn't have to spend all the money they have.
Moreso NETWORK so you already have a few feet behind the door you want to become indoctrinated "joke" into. Experience is great, but who you know is far more important these days.
That's not how academia works in Europe. The PhD is part of the education. "Dropping out" below that basically means entering a non-scientific career path. And it makes sense. I currently work in KSA, where it's apparently normal to start in industry with a Bachelors degree, then decide later whether or not to go to higher education. But these Bachelors are useless. They don't have the experience and mindest to be good technicians, and they have learned way too little to keep up with the real scientists.
I came from industry to academia and I found it better. My sleep got better and life happier. I feel much younger while dealing with students. There is too much corruption in industry. There is corruption in academia too, but nobody dies in academia, when you don't do your job. Imagine putting low quality materials in building or cutting corners when designing a power plant. Also, you see how much tax payers money is being simply pocketed. Academia was a salvation for me.
The "sudden" collapse of notable residential buildings in the UK and the US over the last several years comes to mind
I can believe you 100%. Unfortunately it seems like there's no perfect harbor out there, but perhaps at least better ones.
I'm happy you actually feel better in academia now. I guess it depends which types of nonsense we find easier to deal with. Considering I'd like to consider myself a person of high ethical standards and somebody who pills that we should always be striving to build a better world, I am not sure how long I could last in a dirty industry where people didn't have any scruples at all.
As someone who is hard left of left, who seems to be getting more cynical about the thuggery of those that pull the strings by the day with no end in sight, I can only imagine the amorality and the absolute psychopathy even that takes place in high-level decision-making in an industry when the only thing that matters is extracting that very last buck or that last penny no matter how many lives might be compromised, harmed or being lost. And since government is always always on its knees to industry, and sometimes the other way around, but never EVER doing their job as the watchdog that they're supposed to, of course the cycle continues decade after decade and (for now), century after century. Do you think I'm exaggerating at all??
Or do you think I get it?
@@Krill_all_health_insuranceCEOs The comrade gets it. I wasn't keen on joining profit-only-seeking industries so I'll just stick in academia for the sake of my sanity, and best of luck.
exactly. industry is dirty, there's no meaning in it even if there's money there. industry can be toxic asf too. at least in academia, you're striving for something good. this is from someone who've worked "industry" or "corporate" before. my conscience is forever disturbed
@@felix-xd4mx I could see how also working for so-called defense/gov - eg, the Military-Industrial-Complex -can damage most aware folks because of the ethical implications.
Perhaps working for Intel or one economically important / beneficial industry is okay if academia isn't an option. Albeit I hear Intel works - manufactures chips - for the defense sector/ military. But those jobs - from my investigation - are rare and hard to get. But also, academia is now unreliable:
Academia sucks too if one doesn't make it, ie, become a professor and do quality research. The imbalanced ratio of PhDs to non-adjunct (professor) academic positions is mind-blowing. Most (~90%+) won't get the position, especially if one isn't from one of the very top schools. And even most of them don't get positions either. Prestige doesn't guarantee anything.
Even if one does make it to professor - which is a very low % of Phds and is plummeting because of the oversupply of PhDs, and universities replacing professors with adjuncts (since it's cheaper), among other factors - meaningful science as a career is almost impossible unless one is part of the elite. They have more scientific freedom because of more funding, eg, MIT, etc.
Professorship isn't the promised land. They have to fight for funding/grants and against other professors and market their research. Professorhip comes with a lot of caveats: Like professors having to do administrative tasks and that takes away time from doing research... etc.
One would have to travel and do all the right things as a Postdoc - be from a top school, have the right networks, et al - and then perhaps that increases the chances a bit. But the chances are still slim and there are no guarantees because of the massive oversupply of PhDs applying to scarce positions. This is the state of the job market for most academia.
But now we are talking about elitism - and arguably, nepotism - which can't be the path for all people. And again, even those guys are having low prospects.
I did my research on academia and the future/job prospects before jumping into more college - I dropped out of undergrad - and it looks very bleak. (I came across this article and emailed it to Andy Stapleton and surprisingly enough - and in benefit of all's awareness - he made it into a video.) My condolences for all those PhDs having a tough time.
As an alternative to Academia, I would much rather get an actual job/income that pays the bills, that can get me married, and that can buy me some scientific equipment for me to, on top of reading science as a hobby, also do experiments and study nature. I see this to be way better for me than (trying to get in)/(shooting for) academia.
I feel like I have stopped learning in my master/PhD. I just do grants all day. I don’t want to do research anymore. I hate it. So stressed because I feel like I have to start all over again
Universities exist to make money for themselves. Educating people is the product they sell, but universities do not care if the degree programs they provide end up being economically rewarding for their graduates. In fact, I would say that universities believe that thinking about the financial future of their students is beneath them. They believe that only trade schools are really concerned about that issue. And trade schools are low class and far beneath the dignity of a university.
Most nations have let their universities get out of control. Politicians have cooperated with the university heads to pass laws that funnel more money to schools, and give them even greater monopolies on higher education. Average voters need to yell and scream at our politicians to remove the laws that give universities monopolies. We need to open things up so there is a lot more competition in higher education.
Not sure which country you are in, but in the US the amount of government funding for universities has been declining for decades, which has made college tuition vastly more expensive than in my day. A lot of politicians now don’t want to support K-12, let alone higher education.
@@aliannarodriguez1581
Are you aware that law in the U.S. makes it illegal to run a university in a metal shed? The most technologically advanced products in the world are made in metal sheds, but U.S. universities are forced to constantly build new buildings made of the most expensive materials. This is not about competition between schools, it is about government regulation creating unnaturally high expenses for universities that maintain monopolies for the established institutions.
Harvard has more than enough money in the bank that they never have to charge any student a penny, but that's not part of their value system. Harvard isn't the only one, either.
None of what U.S. universities do puts education forward as their main motivation.
4-year tuition needs to be forced to come way down one way or another, that much is true.
They are indeed profit factories, otherwise why would tuition continually rise so steeply??? This has lead to the criminal and exploding student loan crisis. (in the US)
@@deezynarthe buildings are Privately owned that is why they keep them in tip top condition. The buildings are valuable assets for the super wealthy. The student is definitely not their priority. You're there to be financially fleeced to make the private owners wealthy. It's a big club, and you're not in it. The 1% are addicted to profit.
Here's the interesting thing, though: in Europe most universities are publicly funded, but the problems around higher education and the mismatch between supply and demand for graduates are mostly the same.
I was literally born into academia.(my entire family on both sides worked and lived in a prodigious research institute since long before i was born) 35 years later, I'm a bookkeeper instead because i got sick of the toxicity in the ivory towers. The academic life doesn't suit everyone.
Very helpful as a person who is just finishing his PhD. Would be great if you could make videos on the transition from PhD to industry , especially in non-comp sci engineering related fields.
You are clever and can work independently on complex problems. That's enough to start anywhere. Experience will follow. Don't let anyone convince you otherwise, even if you get rejected.
Could I ask some questions
@@skeletorlikespotatoes7846to whom?
There is no "transition". You apply for jobs, then go to work once you got one. The people there will tell you what they expect from you. End of story.
That's why, many people prefer trade school (pursuing vendor's certificates and licenses) than college, nowadays. 😊
The trades can be a good alternative, but it has its downsides too. Every single guy I've ever known in the manual trades is essentially crippled by the time they're 60. Hip replacements, knee replacements, shoulder surgery. I mean you'd think these guys were 87 if you saw most of them. A fair number of them die young from alcohol or opioid abuse, in some cases precipitated by the pain of chronic injuries. When they are working, it's often 60 or more hours a week, sometimes with daily commutes of three or four hours.
It is a hell of a grind. The ones who work in solid union states make good money, but is it worth it if it takes 10 years off your life and 20 or more off of your quality years? In non-union states, a lot of them are making near minimum wage with no benefits at all.
@kenofken9458 General contractors, construction management, electricians, plumbers, HVAC, and those who transition from a worker to owning their own company, which is very easy and common will not harm them selves physically and will make as much or more than a doctor if they want to. My friend just maid 400k in a week profit simply scheduling subcontractors to fix a slate roof, add drainage around the building, and remove asbestos. He gets 20% of all the work, so on big multi million dollar jobs every phase he is making more in a week or month than the most successful people will make in a year. Also a lot of electricians can make thousands upon thousands a day and none of the work is really taxing on your body at all.
@@michaelstrang2563 From what you describe, it sounds like unless you're an electrician, you're either breaking your own body or (if you become the owner) making profit off breaking other's bodies in the same way that your body was being broken. Is that better?
@@kenofken9458 Here's a fun fact, though: manual labor doesn't HAVE to be crippling. I was taking an OSHA course once (I'm a lab-tec), and one of the instructors there told me a "funny" story: from the safety side, there is a lot of consciousness regarding the health demands of physical labor, and consequently, there is a lot of equipment and training available to mitigate that problem. But apparently there is a certain culture of toxic masculinity on construction sites where the workers among themselves shame people into performing feats of strength, like carrying heavy stuff without "wasting time" to get the lifting equipment, or not taking the recommended breaks for relaxing and stretching when working in uncomfortable positions.
@@razmiddle9410 more or less you are describing every job that has ever existed in any field.
If you aren’t being offered to be paid to get your phd, you shouldn’t do it.
PhDs are paid. But sadly most of them seem to want to pay you only 50%, while making you work 200%.
Postdoc is only a transition post, do a max of 2 years and move to permant post in academia, or just go to industry. Look also for international opportunities.
Another great vid, Andy! Coming from the humanities, I would echo the same sentiments. If I didn't become self employed, I'm not sure what route I could've taken. The PhD encourages niche, but the more niche you go, the more niche your CV will be!
self employed doing what?
@@YamanoRyuu I run a proofreading and editing and thesis support business. I have a youtube channel also like Andy, though it's still in its infancy 🐸
@@Thesisdoctor Nice. I want to become independent too, but I haven't come up with a good idea yet.
@@YamanoRyuu I would say a good idea would be how to videos. If you're a watcher of TH-cam you probably picked up some ideas on how to do videos better or how to create more engaging content. Some smaller channels would benefit from that type of content. That's the trend I'm seeing right now. Watching those how to vids made me realise I could start a channel too 😊✊
I wonder how many people actually think they will be in academia after their PhD?
Even though this is anecdotal, a lot of PhD students I talk to, and myself included, don't want to go into academia.
I wanted the short-term contract nomadic lifestyle, I learnt during my studies, and after getting my 1st job, I don't like staying in one place for too long, therefore having a 2-3 year contract works much better for me, and whenever I feel like settling down I will just go into industry.
Most students I talk to have this similar mindset.
I personally pursued the PhD for fun! I'm not concerned about the job market afterwards, cause when I was doing my undergrad and masters I received this same doom and gloom speech from others, but I found a job before I even graduated!
I've been debating this, I was offered a nice PhD in Montreal, and I want to do it for the experience and because I wanna learn more, but I've been scared whether I should do it or not because I don't want to work in academia and I'm scared finding a job after the PhD would be too hard 😅 (I'm in engineering)
@@esdras4657there r always jobs for engineers.
Man you either were insanely lucky or your family has an insanely good network/ gives you a great support network
@@esdras4657 it's up to you, getting offered good PhD positions is hard as well.
I remember when I started applying I was anxious cause I heard how many tries it took my previous university supervisors before they were able to get one. I only applied to 3, and I got accepted by the 3rd one. It was fully funded for 42-months, and I don't have to teach or do anything other than the project during it.
If you think the PhD gets you closer to working in jobs you desire, go for it. If you are doing it solely because you want to learn/contribute new knowledge, I still say go for it. You will get so many brilliant opportunities to network/gain experience during the PhD that will increase your employability in various sectors, if you are happy to move to a new area or country to pursue jobs you desire, you never have to be worried about employment.
If you are scared of leaving your job to pursue a PhD, maybe see if your job offers opportunities to do further study whilst working? At my previous place of employment, I could have done a PhD whilst working there, but my project would have to be related to the department I was in and it would need to benefit said department. I didn't want the stress of working and doing a PhD, nor did I want to do a project related to the place I was working at.
If your current job doesn't offer these opportunities, and you are set on staying employed whilst working, then find a job that does! There are many institutions that give opportunities for further study/qualifications.
@@alicianieto2822 my family certainly has no connections in the field I worked in, my dad was a bus driver and mother is a midwife.
I wouldn't call it luck, because after a year working in my 1st permanent job, I was looking for jobs closer to home and I was offered positions easily, I turned them all down because I was also offered my PhD position.
If you aren't making it to the interview stage, check your CV, ask others if you can see theirs and use it as a template, also ask people to check your CV. Before my permanent position, I was on a short term contract, I needed to apply for the permanent position so I asked my line manager at the time (who had experience conducting interviews for the job I was applying for, and has read countless CVs for it) and other people in my department to help me, and they kindly did. My line manager checked my personal statement, the answers I prepared for the interview, and my CV, and my co-worker sent me their CV and the answered they prepared for certain interview question so I had a template.
When I was applying for a PhD, one of my supervisors for my masters degree sent me the project advert cause she thought it was a great fit for me, she also helped me extensively with my research statement, personal statement, academic CV and the presentation I needed to prepare for the interview.
Maybe I have been lucky, because I have been surrounded by people who are willing to help me when I ask. Or maybe you just aren't asking for help enough? You're not guaranteed to get a job with this method, but it may at least point out errors in your applications that you can't see.
Worse is when you have to move between different countries with different languages. Moving between UK and Australia is easier than moving between Germany and France.
You selected the worst examples there. Two nations whose language isn't too relevant in the rest of the world, who don't like each other much and who tend to be a little butthurt when you live there without learning the language. And this is coming from a German ;)
@@Volkbrecht Yeah, but that is the truth. This is also perhaps one of the main reasons why the US is still the most popular destination for researchers to go (especially for Ph.D. and Postdoc work) despite Europe having far better living standards than the US.
@@khanalprabhatimagine thinking Europe has a higher standard of living than the U.S. 😂
How to identify and overcome the bad bits whilst doing a PhD. That's key. I'd like to hear more on this. Thanks for the video. Excellent as always. Cheers from San Antonio, Texas, USA.
I did 1.5 years of a 2 year Post doc back in 1993 at Stanford University. I bailed out early and it was my best decision ever. Academia has always been a scam. It was funny when I resigned the professor I worked for was shocked that I left. Afterwards I founded the Ex Post Doc Society which helped Post Docs get jobs outside of Academia. Get out soon.
That's the hard truth, and we all need to be confronted to it once in a while! Thanks for sharing these advices!
I'm 5 years into the program now! Lost last 2 years due to personal issues! I've never been the same since!
School doesn't care about you! They just want that degree pumped out!
I'm out of funds and still can't get a fucking meeting with advisor!
Too scared to quit because I'm an international in the USA and my parents spent a lot of money on school!
I'm yet to finish my proposal defence! Have been locked up my room for days at times! Smoked pot and drank for months at a stretch! Feeling like stagnant water sucks!
And the worse case there is nothing you can do about it! You're at the mercy of the advisors and on thier timeline to meet and schedule things!
I'm 30 now! My 20s feels wasted! Just need some guidance now! Used all the things Andy taught me to publish my first paper though.!
Switch career...I did that at age 32.
@@lzkrishmom thinking long and hard! Will do it asap!
Do what your heart calls you to do, please do not feel like a failure if that means leaving the program. Your life is more important than any title.
I got a professional job towards the end of my PhD... not even in my field. Finished it off while earning a salary. It also started with running out of money after some issues extended my PhD and I started doing silly part time jobs just for some cash... then when I added up the time in the part time jobs, I decided to go full time and in a professional job.
Sometimes you just have to admit you made a mistake, and that research is not for you. Obviously it is taking a huge toll on your health. The people who succeed at it love it and crave it, and are willing to take low salaries if it means they get to do more of it.
Best to stop whacking your head up against it and go do something you actually enjoy.
I think about the video of that guy who spent 15 years studying a specific bird. He said he regretted the entire journey.
sad but true... I just finished my phd... after 2 MSc... in search of postdoc I discovered is super competitive and that the money is short...and that I might need to be there another 4-6 years... 2-3 positions? I kind of regret believing the Academia fallacy; I still love science... but resources are limited, bullying is more common really common (is the norm), there are no jobs. Isn't that I am quitting Academia, there's no space, no job, is underpaid, they require more than 60 hours per week... my last 1.5 years without funding... transitioning to the real world.
To your comment on 8:05, there is no way all the PhDs you ask would choose to do their PhDs again. Many days I wish I hadn't done mine. So there you go, it's not 100%.
I left a Physics PhD program. Two big reasons, though there were more. I had passed the Qualifier Exam but not started on a thesis. That was my exit point.
One is that I saw professors dealing with writing grant proposals, writing other things, managing students, managing other stuff, organizing, and hardly ever getting their hands on the lab equipment. Professors are more like executives than hands-on explorers of the frontiers of knowledge. That's not strictly true for everyone, but it's the pattern.
The other reason was I loved getting my hands on sensors, building electronic gizmos, fiddling knobs, tweaking things to get more signal out of the noise. The academic path does allow that, but working as an engineer at a manufacturer of sensors or electronic thingamabobs is a *lot* more like that. And pays better! I was getting tired of living in a bare bones way, my only furniture a cheap metal folding chair, a desklamp, and a cheap estate sale bed.
At the time, it was easy to get into software. Anyone who could make an LED blink by writing machine code on a microprocessor could get a job. So I did!
No regrets.
I go to the college Prof Katz teaches at! Glad he is educating students and giving good advice.
I did a PhD as a challenge and proud of it. Publishing was enjoyable and that's a good milestone. You learn something interesting. When I looked at doing post-docs I realised that, wasn't for me.... as a career it's not a great thing. You have two jobs, teaching and research. It's up to you to make something from it.
Indeed I thought the industry is better than academia long term , but what do I know 🤷♀️ .I guess one learns best from doing. Love your insightful videos Andrew !
During my phd, i was so depressed because there was always a pressure and experiments sometimes not working out. Add on financial problems and health problems of parents as well. Then I made up my mind and after my PhD, i took up a wonderful position in the publishing industry. Needless to say that I am truly blessed and happy 🧿 positive work environment, you get to be yourself, encouraging bosses, no work on weekends, no work after the usual work hours ❤ im just grateful.
Can only speak for myself but, yes, undertaking a science PhD was the biggest mistake I ever made. Should've gone straight into industry after A levels, learned a technical / engineering trade & business on the job + law or CS/SE via distance learning or night school. Even back in the day the mood music was that science PhD courses were churning out 'slightly brainy' lab technicians not Paul Diracs.
Well those jobs are being pushed out by the same AI they've developed, so
Dirac is a pretty high bar!
Most companies are mainly looking for lab technicians in manufacturing and quality control. Here in Germany we have a very good apprenticeship system. I totally regret not having done an apprenticeship as a lab technician at one of the mega corporations instead of studying. A phd is actually overkill for most jobs that are on the market. Most phd roles are leading roles where you manage people and don`t really do reasearch and honestly it´s not the kind of work I want to do, but it`s where the money is. Research and development positions are rarer than the number of PhDs. And it seems like there are more PhDs than Masters, so that for many research and development roles which even a Masters could easily handle, they are expecting a Phd.
Honestly, industry jobs suck. But they pay way better and you don`t have the publish or perish pressure.
@@maythesciencebewithyou Completely agree with the apprenticeship route - the studying and research projects can always be done later and arguably hold more relevance against a groundng in a real world commercial/industry lab & business experience and life. Not that I'd stop anyone doing a first and higher degree straight after school, I just think for most people, who will never be top level researchers, a PhD is as you rightly observe overkill.
@@aliannarodriguez1581 An amusing fact about Dirac is when he formulated what's known as Dirac notation, he called it 'bra' and 'ket' ; later insisting he didn't know that a bra was women's underwear.
*There was an article in SCIENCE back in the 1990s*
that stated there were too many PhDs and they will have
issues what you just stated.
This was way back in the 1990s. Its WORSE now!!
Everything is saturated now. Everything. I feel like, as an old millennial, this happened some time after high school. You need to be in the top 5 or 10 percent or whatever to get anything desirable now. We're out of physical space in desirable cities, so i hope you're a top ten percent earner because that's the only realistic way to buy a house once we're out of space to develop new houses. Want a desirable job? Same thing, degree doesn't mean anything. You need to be a top performer with exceptional skills and experience. I feel like the average person making it through even a high level PhD program is pretty well doomed. It doesn't help that admission standards have plummeted to grow class sizes and revenue.
Same, old millennial here too. I think it's a good start to recognise market saturation. Many don't recognise this due to passion, and find themselves reaching burn out in a hyper competitive space. It doesn't make sense to compete for the obvious prizes. I don't have an answer here, because it's something I'm looking for too. I think it's important to do things you normally wouldn't. Go uncommon places, meet uncommon people. Enter another industry, find the singular time and place where there's little to no competition for you. "Go after inspiration with a club".
Care less, embrace the suck. Love Gen Z.
Unless you just have to become a professor, get a job before you start your PhD. That way you will know what is outside.
What of if you are in an environment where you can't get a job? For instance, many African immigrants cannot get professional jobs in Europe because of their skin color despite having their BSc and MSc from Europe.
PhD in theoretical physics. I got a job right out of grad school because I was lucky that a friend I did homework with in college was at a successful job and recommended me… I didn’t have any other prospects, it’s incredibly hard to find the job right out of grad school folks.
I saw the writing on the wall soon enough to stop at a MSc. I was lucky enough to get a tech job in a teaching hospital. I escaped from the research lab by becoming a Med Lab tech (which did not require an MSc). Over the course of my career the labs I worked in turned out a number of MScs in Microbiology and Molecular Biology. The graduates with those degrees saw the writing on the wall. Two of them are now paramedics (which they did not need a MSc for). One went to work in the auto industry some went to dental school or Med school, and the others left for various non-science jobs. So many of the people who graduated with me left the field after one or two years working at low paid tech jobs. And now my country whines that we need more scientists and then hires them from outside the country. Non of my children went into the sciences. They wanted to actually earn a living.
Computer Science is best!
This is so sad to me because I love science and know that scientists and researchers are so important to society.
Why not just become a school teacher or start a private tutoring practice? I don't understand why we toil away so much in this area when we know it's full of corruption, stress, depression, etc.. Like was said in the article, no one does a PhD for the money, so then it just begs the question of why we do this? You mentioned prestige kind of jokingly, but I do think this genuinely motivates a lot of people. I know for myself, I always enjoyed just making my work look professional and academic-like, but when I realized that this is just the expectation when starting a PhD, I'm realizing that a lot of this really just comes down to factors out of your control and caring so much about being prestigious is filled with emptiness. Curious to hear other people's thoughts.
I am working on a PhD with a specialization in general psychology. While I think your video holds an interesting perspective, it also is good to understand the intent for each individual wanting to pursue a PhD. There are many other routes other than being hired by a university to extend the knowledge to others. For example, creating a website for consulting, education, independent research, and more. This is an optimal time to get the PhD and for this very reason. It is good not not equate knowledge with monetary gain. Perhaps evaluating your intentions, goals, and pursuits is the best way to evaluate the choice instead of placing a value of "good" or "not so good" on the endeavor based solely on hiring statistics ( look more on the qualitative rather than the quantitative). The numbers can be informative. However, there is more to measure and understand.
I remember reading this article back in 1999 when I was getting my PhD. When my advisor said I should spend a fifth year in the PhD program and then do a post doc for a couple of years, I said, that's three years, and three years equals law school, so I'll do that instead.
Hello Andy. I am doing post docs. from 2013. I did my PhD from India in computational fluid dynamics. Then I moved to Portugal to do my first post doc in 2013. Then in 2015, I moved to Brazil to do my second post doc in UnB. Since then I am in Brazil. Changing universities after universities. I am trying to escape from this post doc trap.
Computational fluid dynamics? Have you thought about working for a commercial space company?
I always had a desire to do PhD since 18 19th years old (now I am 25) but I have nothing to do with title or getting rich. I just work for myself and I just want to discover something and make an innovation. I want to find something so that the world changes or contribute to the human health. I love to be around the people that they have same interest with me. I love to talk science and solve problems with them. So I have no other option to do PhD to continue these desires.
You tell me what can I do other? Even PhD is hard and you have difficulties with people. I have no chance to care because I want to discover something and do research.
Thank You. This is just me.❤
I was an engineering manager at a US Department of Energy Laboratory. I used to feel sorry for the Biology post-docs. I had electronics technicians that made more money than them. Me? - I retired from the University of California at 55.
Thanks as always for your videos, Andrew! Agreed with some other folks that it would be interesting if you had some content in the future discussing the realities of the industry/"alt. academic" market places and what perhaps folks in your network in those positions could pass along to PhDs trying to escape academia about how to tackle this transition. Personally, like others have said here, it's a no brainer for me to want to leave academia. The alt. ac. job markets though have just been so bad in past years that it feels like for me and many others that we have been trapped on the academic/postdoc treadmill not by choice, but because there are so few opportunities to get out that you have to stay if you want any semblance of pay or insurance (at least in the US). I'm sure this is field specific of course (neurobiologist here not doing neurodegenerative work, so whomp whomp), but would really be interested to see if you were able to find a way to produce some more videos addressing those topics to help inform the next gen of academic hopefuls about what to expect on the other side once they fully commit to leaving academia!
I feel sorry for PHD students because you kind of have to understand that someone who graduated with a PHD say 2023 has had a long run. I mean say a bsc is 3 years than masters 2 years than phd 4 years. That is almost ten years. Which means that they started their BSC degree in 2014, the world was kind of different then. We did not have brilliant videos/channels like this then.
I do not have a PHD, but I regret studying even BSC in engineering, the marke is saturated and the academic system is not what it was in the 80s/90s.
I hope you are expanding your job search beyond engineering jobs? Your skills r highly valued in the financial markets as well
@@aeiou0123 well thanks for reply have found a job in sales/logistics, would definetly call it underemployed but I have no time to be picky right now so will choose it and hopefully do well.
You can become an industrial research scientist in industrial research institutes with better work life balance and financial stability. The title may be misleading into thinking that all scientist positions are problematic.
Seems smarter to do a PhD in engineering. You're doing research. You're doing science. But you're focused (ideally) on problems that are much more likely to make you valuable in the real world.
Hi Andrew, thanks for this great video. Well, yesterday I decided to leave academia now for good and told it my PI. We both agreed that I just don't have the best starting conditions for a good academic career anymore, since my doctor father just screwed up my career. But I am really happy he was supportive and I will make the best out of my PostDoc now. Learning more skills and also finishing my projects. And then I will see where I go and in the meantime I start something for myself! Thanks for having this great mission. This is essential and I started to tell Master students what they might await at the other side! Thanks and have a great day!
Andy: This is a great eye-opening video, and you explained it so wonderfully. Amazing job, and please keep going. :)
This is so true. I completed my honours in chemistry and I couldn’t even find an entry-level job. Now I’m doing my masters in engineering medical engineering and I’m planning on either going to teacher college or medical school because that’s better than doing any research or being any scientist because of the lifestyle.
How long did you search?
Medical school might be just a tad harder to get into than teacher training college. Just warning you ahead of time.
So true. I bought a house at the age of 37 because I had a 3 year research grant and that was as much financial security as I had ever had. But when that ran out I had to rent the house out and move to another city for my next job.
When I was there I said to a Professor of Surgery, 'If I had known that I was going to spend all those years at university and end up in medical research, I should have done a medical degree first, then a PhD so I had a proper job to fall back on when the grant ran out'.
He said: 'We have a graduate medical degree program. You could easily get in.' I thought for a second or two about how I would support myself for four years and then realised I had never wanted to be a doctor. Or a lawyer. In fact I had not known what I wanted to be when I grew up, so I did a Bachelor of Science. Then they offered me a scholarship to do a PhD and things followed from there.
Thing is it turned out that I was a really good scientist according to my supervisor, thesis examiners, referees of the half dozen papers I wrote during my candidature and others whose opinions I respect, and who expected me to go far. And I really liked working on ideas at the cutting edge of science and had a quite a lot of autonomy. Friends of mine went in to industry but that was not what I wanted to do, so I don't regret my choices.
But it really should not be so hard for people like me.
So true. Liked my phd. Left academia after my first postdoc. Wish i did it before, just after phd graduation. But, quite frankly, how can a phd supervisor prepare the phd students to land a career outside of academia when he/she does not have any such experience whatsoever? I am not trying to be nasty simply I cannot get what you would like academia to do...
if I spent 4 years of my life and all I got for it was that title it'd be worth it. It's so hard to go back after you've exited the academic world. I'm just an Msc now and still jealous of those 3 letters.
I don't think it is just Ph.d's, most of what you said seems to apply across the scale of educated/trained individuals when it comes to working for someone else. Especially having your vision of what the career will look like vs. what the career actually is when you arrive.
Phd is overrated, and money was is inefficient , risky proposition. I believe that things like neural link will allow later to get the knowledge of what ever field we like and then it result that many people start own business and who know what business relations will be in the future.
Imagine pursuing something that takes 5 years of your life without investigating these basic insights first
You're the best Andy, always!
Another harsh reality is that many industries are not interested in hiring people with advanced degrees because of the belief that there will be a demand for a higher salary. When I was considering going for a PhD, 30 years ago, I got some great advice. If you want to teach at a university, go for the doctorate. Otherwise, your Masters degree will be just fine. During the 40 years I worked in the private sector, I saw businesses hire people who had no academic accreditation relating to a job.
I left academia few years ago after many years of postdoc in Boston, MA. I found that industry so much better. Better pay (3 times more than a postdoc salary), better work life balance. etc... Although I tell everybody who is in academia to switch to industry, I feel bad for them right now. The job market is just crazy because of so many layoffs in the biotech sector here in MA. For many entry scientific position, there are so many candidate applying for same position (up to 200). I hope the situation changes soon for the better!
excellent video. Most phd students I know want to work at a company but there are limited positions even for that currently.
I did my PhD in the 90s, absolutely regret about it. As long as you have the interest and discipline, you can learn and achieve as much as a PhD in your job. I absolute hate the pointless politics and bureaucracy generated in a non-profit environment. As soon as I was done, I immediately quitted and looked for a job in London. The worst of all are that 1) you are a late starter in career comparing to other people, 2) employers regard you as tech people, hard to steer into managerial role. So I need to have a plan to speed my career in technical field. Picked on an emerging technology (major luck hit the right one), publicly wrote a lot about it and published a series of softwares. It was like having two jobs. Eventually, my career made a several leaps after Fortune 50 company license my software. I was so lucky.
This is a topic close to home. I started a PhD in climate science in Australia in 2005 and graduated in 2014. Couldn't get any research related roles after finishing. I had no choice but to pivot. In the years that followed, I ended up working in customer service before being given a chance to work in finance/accounts receivable. I appreciate all the people and organisations that took a chance on me. It's been a tough slog to get to this point. Do I regret doing a PhD? For the most part, no, but as I've gotten older (now in my early 40s), a small part of me regrets doing a PhD. What it does produce however, is excellent workers no matter what industry they go into.
I like how you did not go into banter against all PhDs, but encouraged us to kind of "customize" the PhD experience to benefit us best. I think this is sound advice against being too naive about making decision to do a PhD.
I thought about doing more than my BSEE but Masters and PhD's are a dime a dozen now. You only need the basic degree since over time people only care about your real skills. Master's and PhD's will be harder to justify looking at the costs now.
As I listen to this video, I am 80% through my PhD in IT, and this video is definitely beneficial. Thanks for sharing!
I don't regret having spent years on my PhD as it provided me with the skills and authority to pursue a career as a freelancer and feel independent to live my life as I wanted and not as the toxic academia wanted.
thanks for the insight. i think it really helped me put into perspective what i want to do.
At this point I can only want my physics doctorate for my own intellectual enrichment; for the good of my students; and as a personal triumph. Nothing else pencils out.
1:29 we don't make twice as many PhDs as there are academic jobs, we make twice as many PhDs as there are in ALL jobs for them. It's probably more like 20:1 in terms of academic positions. I honestly do not understand why anyone bothers with 99% of Postdoc jobs, you're earning McDonald's wages for doing serious work and getting treated like a dumb mutt the whole time. Just get an industry job.
Thanks for sharing these advices!
I am just about to appy for a PhD (humanities tho) and this does soud scary. I want to do it because I simply find my discipline exciting. I will most probably do it. I am not interested in building a career outside of academia, so I don't feel that I am missing out on something. But I am definitely terrified that it will ruin my relationships - that instability, moving all the time...
The question for me is more so: Where to go?
A PhD isn't quite the option for me for several reasons, but the thing is, what I enjoyed in the time I studied physics and math was the creativity used to work on math problems, the hands on experience on seeing how things work in experiments, the feeling of beauty when I saw nature being described by math, the way I could be social by solving problems together.
I'm pretty lost, I didn't connect to how the culture in physics was influenced by wanting to make it more useful for industry already, so I'm not sure how going to industry is going to solve that problem.
There are plenty of interesting problems in industry where to apply physics and math. Actually, industry carry on most of innovations nowadays
@@fizban974 I kind of don't see our world lacking in technology personally, I see it more lacking in humanity. I think our biggest problems are more so political, social, psychological, and since I don't have a lot of fun playing with tech, I feel like I'd be wasting my time. I know it's ironic since I am writing on the internet, but I also couldn't stare at a screen with code all day.
I'm not sure it really came across in my comment, but I enjoyed physics and math from a standpoint where I enjoyed that human sense of wonder and sharing that with others. I don't think I could lie to an employer telling them I care about making their product they designed to fall apart after warranty just a little bit faster.
@@toni2309 Unfortunately that's the real world out there - money making machine and we are just cogs chasing money to survive. I think I'm in the same boat as you. I live for natural philosophy but with the state of academia, it is simply not feasable as a career, it is too risky and I think I'll leave it as a hobby. I've switched my majors between physics, biochemistry, and engineering, pondering at this situation. I would've love to be a scientist by profession but the world doesn't value them. Money in the other hand is valued, so now I think I'm going to study engineering. It is the least worst of careers for me I think. I'll basically work 40 hours a week and buy a lab and books and start doing what I want. Sad world. I was depressed for days trying to accept this. I think it's better to have money even though you might not like your job (although you never know, there are quite some exciting engineering jobs) and not worry about money and have money for your hobbies.
Did anyone write? It says that there are three comments, but there aren't, which is weird.
@@toni2309 if you're looking for the sense of wonder of discovering and sharing new things I'd say 1) get out of academia asap. There it's all about grants, not science, not wonder. 2) you may find that in private R&D. The assumption that corporate R&D is soulless - as you seem to imply - is outdated and plainly wrong (eg GenAI was invented in Microsoft, not academia).
I'm a 1st year PhD scholar and I'm thinking of taking a job instead of pursuing PhD as I'm not able to understand how to navigate through PhD.. everything is just so confusing...
i was emotionally abused in my phd program and it completely destroyed my confidence. i left with a masters degree and am working with a therapist to even get back into the workforce. i had considered doing some type of engineering (instead of astrophysics) after undergrad and really wish i did. i am now years behind my peers in terms of skills and experience
I loved biology throughout high school and even entered a biomedical science program my first year of uni. I realized I didn’t want to waste my time on med school, and even if I was interested in research there was zero money in that and no one cared about that. Thankfully I switched to nursing, best decision of my life.
Recently i saw a video on U tube that a PhD guy was selling vegetables on the street since he had no job of that level and was financially broke.
Got a BS in electrical engineering emphasizing CPU design, earned while working full time office job, taking classes at nights. Graduated in 2002, height of the tech bubble burst. Never worked even 1 day in the field. Use the math from that degree to do predictive modeling, making a decent salary. Thought about getting my masters in math, then realized I'm mid 50s now. It would cost me more for that degree than any potential salary change could ever justify. And going part time, it would take me minimum 4 years, possibly more. Meaning I'd be 60-ish then. My BSEE has a lot of the requirements for an MS program in math, but not all. So I would need to take at least a semester or two of undergrad math, paying graduate level tuition for them. Screw that.
Do the postdoc AFTER working a job in industry. After you've made your retirement and become financially independent.
In college, I did a summer internship at the NIH. There were many scientists who told me not to get my PhD.
I am super lucky. I got a great tenure-track professorship very early in my career. I didn't have to move, I have wonderful colleagues, and a supportive administration. It is a gamble to chase the dream, but sometimes it really pays off. Well, not "pays", but you know what I mean. :)
For the lucky few it does. For the vast majority it doesn`t. Most graduates are better off in industry. However, the demand for scientists in industry isn`t as high as the number of graduates. But you can salvage your PhD to work in something research unrelated, even if that wasn`t your goal. It would honestly make more sense if most students just did a company apprenticeships and be trained to do the jobs that are in demand by the companies themselves.
Sure. And why are you watching this video? Lucky!
I'm an entrepreneur for 7 years and now wanting to go into a PhD in biostatistics/data science (it's about 3 years in France). But that's a strategic move because I want later to specialise applying statistical modelling to bio medical science.
Thanks, chad, important stuff you're talking about!
There are alternatives to academia for a Phd, depending on your discipline. I entered Pharmaceutical manufacturing with my PhD in chemistry (and post grad diploma in Bioinformatics). Its rewarding and there is a lot of work
I think frustation and lack of opportunities are possible for whatever path you choose. Academia is no different.
💯💯💯💯
I feel so sad and overwhelmed by the reality of science. I'm struggling a lot to find a PhD and I cannot stop thinking about all the red flags I'm ignoring... but what else can I do? Is there even another path to research?
If you have a Masters, you can apply for a research associate positions in industry. If you can get one of those, after some years you can move up to a proper scientist position. With a PhD you can start at the scientist position. But there are many more leves above that, depending on how big the company is. So basically, you don`t really need a phd to do research in industry. However, with how many people are making PhDs, companies are more likely to take a phd for a research associate position. As you can see, even a phd won`t guarantee that you will get a research scientist position industry, at least not right after your graduation. Most PhDs end up becoming managegers though and most of those are not for research, but for manufacturing and quality control. Your job will then just be to lead a group. You get to make the decisions, however, the actualy research is done by those working for you.
If all you want is just to work on some research project. Then you can just join a lab as a lab tech. If you are lucky, you can have a PI who won`t oppose hearing out and considering your ideas. Even as a Postdoc, you would still have your PI above you who makes the decision on what you can research. When you manage to become a professor, you get to chose the research in your lab, however, you won`t have the time to do research youreslf. You`ll be reading papers, correcting papers, looking for grants, but so far I`ve only seen one Professor still occassionally doing experiments in the lab. Can you even call that doing research when all you are is the manager?
A lab tech in academia is paid shit, but you can also be a lab tech for a scientist in industry in the research and development department. Pay is better, but still shit compared to what the phds who manage you make. But compared to academia, in industry you can even move up the ranks starting as a simple lab tech who only has a bachelors. It will however take you much longer to reach a scientist position.
The best path, with the lowest chance of happening, to research is winning the lotery and building your own hobby lab. Science was once a hobby for the rich after all, which is why academia sucks so much, especially when you come from a poor background.
Typically, if you wanted to be leading research and writing papers etc then you really need a PhD but if you want to be involved in research without a specific need to be a lead author or PI then a degree or masters is fine with some experience.
I'm in exactly the same boat.
I'm happy with a masters making well into 6 figs, I'd only go back for a mba, but probably not
I have a just BSc and 13.5 years of microbiology/virology research experience, almost 10 years in the private sector and because of the current 2023-2024 economy so many private sector associate/junior scientist or senior research engineers are getting laid off and the few research jobs still hiring are in the public sector and academia and no one wants to hire someone too experienced.
And from the other perspective, when perma-students do concede and move into industry they’re institutionalised and not particularly useful at… working.
I think PhD is the same as building your own company as CEO.
Self-discipline , power and whatever it happens never give up are so important traits. And like CEOs, PhD students should be assertive , actively speaker, communicater and open with high self confidence on public like CEOs.
Yes
These videos are informative but as a recent Physics/Astrophysics graduate thinking of applying to graduate schools, they are also unbelievably depressing and soul crushing. I feel so lost and don't know if I should even go for the P.h.D I've wanted for so long. At the same time industry sounds montonous and equally soul crushing but at least I don't have to work ridiculous hours for decades to maybe get a tenure track position. Being a scientist is my dream but I'm not willing to be exploited and hinge decades of my life on a maybe.
I did a PhD in London and postdocs in the US. I completely concur.
It is fascinating to look at what happens to the PhD students at a university like Macquarie. They put through a lot of PhD in physics but they aren’t the best students, because they don’t get good quality undergraduates. So after 10 years you have students who are still on postdocs, data scientists, programmers and administrators and some Chinese who have disappeared probably into military research. No one at 10 years has a research or academic position in the Western world.
Anyone looking at a PhD should check the number of PhD awarded, compared to the number of staff. Some departments have so many PhD it is impossible for them to get decent jobs.
Thats why, R1 & R2 are a must! 🤭
As the second year of my second post-doc was flying by, I became uncharacteristically snarky regarding the prospects, pay, and promises made to me. The PI put me in my place immediately by stating the following, "Now you listen to me: A scientist in the adjacent laboratory is working FOR FREE, generating data for his own grant. His wife is supporting him and their family". I decided I could not compete with scientists willing to work for free. The next day I started looking for a job; the first job I landed did NOT require a PhD.
My heart is heavy for all the bright folks with newly minted doctorates.
Finishing my PhD soon and zero desire to stay in research/academia. It actually baffles me that anyone would want to stay lol
What incentive do advisors or universities have to prepare Ph.D. students for employment outside of the academy? Advisors and universities aren't interested in skills in benefits that do not benefit research and raising grant money. At best, particular advisors or programs may have affiliations with industrial partners they get research funding from, and therefore may direct students toward after graduation.
The second part you said "at best", that sounds like a huge deal and a huge incentive. Out of curiosity, why is it not "at least"? Is it rare or there's like a competing interest?
@@tinyleopard6741 You may already know this, but i'll clarify just to be sure: "at best" usually means "in the most optimal plausible scenario" in this context, often with a negative/pessimistic tone. It doesn't mean that it's the ideal situation, just the best you may get from something (but without much expectation)
why get a PHD when you can get your company to pay for your research and also get promoted with a raise while working on it.