People don’t understand just how ruthless and cruel Dooku was. He led billions of people under the idea of freedom with no intention of his side winning the war. The opposite in fact. He was purposefully leading them to their deaths.
The man was looking to build a human ethnostate. Palpy wasn't racist, and although he did make the empire human centrist he wasn't nearly as bad as dooku would have been.
@@Tom_Cruise_Missile It always did strike me upon a closer look at the generals and CIS leaders the Jedi faced that they seemed almost comically corrupt and evil...it's very easy to write this off as making for easy storytelling and a clear bad guy. Till you remember the two-sided nature of the war and that there were good people with honest intentions in the CIS...BUT those people were not being given command positions, then it becomes clear that Dooku was stacking the deck putting the most horrible CIS people at the forefront to make them easy targets for the Jedi, who wouldn't question fighting against such corrupt and evil people. Meanwhile, as the video says, he kept the actual good people caroled in the parliament and very clearly was duping them all, keeping information about exactly how bad the CIS military was conducting itself from them (sure they found out about some of the stuff, but it was clear they didn't know Dooku had serial war criminals fighting the war for them), and if a member of parliament acted up too much he had them killed and blamed it on the Republic.
@@Tom_Cruise_Missile I think Palpatine was actually too evil to care about such things as "race", and was ultimately willing to treat those who weren't all that different from himself with the same cruelty.
Since Sidious sought to establish human supremacy over galactic civilization, it would be difficult to justify a timeline where he engineered the victory of the CIS. Remember, his primary goal was to eliminate the Jedi. At least, that's what the legacy of Bane instructed the Sith to work towards
@@supercellodude Yeah my idea was he wanted an absolutely loyal battle droid army to be his military. You know someone who wouldn't question orders or need training. Also he could still pull order 66 and then just not deactivate the droid army which the Republic would be hard pressed to fight off with the loss of their jedi
@@zacharyweaver276 you're thinking of the war solely in the military aspect. Consider how many separatist worlds were alien. Droids and aliens were the controlled opposition _ because_ Palpatine wanted to create a human supremacist government, and wanted to use the memory of the Clone Wars to fuel the bigotry and hatred. While exploiting that hatred and scars, for political gain.
@@alexanderrahl7034 True but what if he didn't care about it being a human centrist government and just wanted to become Emperor while also wiping out the Jedi and any other opposition to his power?
@@supercellodude I mostly just want to see a bunch of cool battledroid concepts the CIS would have made if they had the resources of the Empire since they were pretty limited by costs. Like all their deadliest droids were expensive especially the ones who could give jedi a run for their credits
Both the Confederacy and the Republic were both good and evil, as war tends to blend both sides of any conflict into either monsters or heroes depending as on how any of their citizens view them.
Very true. To the people of Ryloth or the Kudavo people the Jedi and Clones, and therefore the Republic, were the heroes because they saved them and their planet from slavery from the Separatists who were the villains to them. But say to New Plympto the Separatists were the good guys buying their goods so their people could eat and survive.
Grievous: smashes the heads off his own battle droids Crosshair: Executes his own troopers Vader: Choked his own officers I think there’s a pattern here… just can’t figure it out 🤔
Mas Amedda: Sir, I normally follow you're plans blindly, but I feel I should point out that if you keep putting people in charge who keep killing our own troops we're going to run out of grunts, and then you'll have to do all the dirty work yourself. Palpatine: Dammit you're right. Time for Plan B, start the Dark Trooper project, when enough time has passed and people forget their hatred of Droids we can replace everyone with Droids. It doesn't matter how many of them we kill because we can just build more. Mas Amedda: So first you use Droids to oppress people, then you let the Clones let over when we first become an Empire, then you recruit regular people to cause to do the oppression, and now you're planning to replace them with better Droids. Sir, wouldn't it have just been easier to use Droids from the very start to finish. Palpatine: Yeah, maybe. But starting a war and all that bloodshed was a lot of fun.
Perhaps Lucas, associated writers, and Disney wanted to import some edgy grimdarkness from Warhammer 40k's Commissars. The Imperium there is a galactic level clerical-fascist state with multiple military, commercial, and religious factions bundled up inside it.
I realize back in Legends there were relatively stable Sith Empires. But with the Galactic Empire that Sidious built lasting around 20 years, is there something about the Sith ideology (perhaps from Bane, or from the Empire's ideology specifically) that makes it a poor fit for a civilization that spans at least half of the galaxy?
Bane's idea was if you have to many sith in one place you end up with self destructive infighting. However this infighting was a strength to an extent since it meant one had to adapt or die quick or be eaten by other sith. With the rule of two however there was no competition just the apprentice slowly growing in power until they kill there master.
so the sith empires in legends usually fell due to failures in ideology but Sidious's empire was slightly different. his empire was actually super stable so long as he was alive. problem was he designed it to crumble without him in an effort to prevent the kind of power grabs that plagued the old sith empires and punish any one who would attempt one anyway. this combined with his arrogance in thinking vader would never betray him is what lead to his death and the death of his empire. had palps been more wary of vader its likely his empire would have never fallen so long as he never died
To add to what An Ian said Palpatine's plan worked far to well. The Sith thrived on conflict and the stable Empires in Legends always had the Republic and the Jedi to counter balance them. Unfortunately the Sith ideology as a whole requires that counterbalance.
Play KOTOR 1 and SW TOR. The answer will become obvious. The "Sith" Empire of Revan was nothing more then the dissilussioned and bigoted members of the Republic military, society and Jedi larping as Sith in an attempt to get back at the Jedi and Republic that failed them. Like if the Confederate States of America had called themselves Britain or something. Their only loyalty was to Revan, Malak, and their own hatred. And to quote Kreia: To be united by hatred is a fragile alliance at best While the Rule of Two Sith were a cult that hated their society and sought ever to corrupt it. The Sith grand plan wasn't to build up the Republic, but to break it down enough so they could take it over. They cared only for power and revenge. But the True Sith we see in the comics and SW TOR were something else entirely. They were a civilization. Like the Persians or Romans. With culture and history. The Sith fought for their power, yes, but also the Empire and the ideals they believed in. Naga Sadow and Ludo Kressh quarelled over power, yes, but more importantly, for how they thought the Empire ought to be run. Naga Sadow wanted to expand and wage war. Ludo Kressh wanted to preserve the Empire as it was. Jadus, millenia later fought to take power, yes, but also to revolutionize the Sith Empire, to change his society to fit his vision. And Thanaton was willling to let himself be executed for the Empire's laws at a young age. They were part of their societies, and wanted those societies to profit or to change, or to maintain, not just for selfish power, but because they believed in their cultures. And their cultures believed in them.
0:07 Don't forget Clone Wars 2003 where the creator of Samurai Jack made awesome fight scenes such as General Grievous vs several Jedi within the ruins of a Republic ship for example.
It's the beauty of the Prequels. We root against the "Rebels", because the Rebels are led by some monsters, while their grievances are completely legit. We root for the Empire in the Prequels, because it is not yet an outwardly fascist state. It still has that nice sheen of "They're the good guys, because the Jedi are nice and Rex, Padmé and some Clones are morally good." that eventually falls off, when the Empire is truly formed. Really goes to show how we, as an audience, can be swayed to root for one group and despise the other group, just based on the figureheads of the fight. The Separatists had legit reasons to want their independence, while the Republic was pretty oppressive. The Clone Wars show even shows us so often how our heroes arrive at some neutral planet and they leave it war-torn.
Grievous was goaded into service with the seps, I feel bad for him... being enslaved then leading his planet to freedom and waging a successful counter campaign against the invading race only for the Jedi to take the others side, after dooku sabotaged his transport he wiped the memories of grievous and basically made him a sith pawn, I believe his life was a true tragedy
The way I see it is that the council, their underlings, the corporates, and the higher ups in the military were even, the common separatists were good and just wanted freedom. Atleast most were, there would be bad examples of the common separatists.
the corporates wanted freedom to exploit planets and basically enslave them (and not pay taxes), the council were said leaders of those corporations, their underlings knew the shit their bosses were doing (invading neutral worlds, political assassinations, use of civilians as human shields, supporting slave empires, and other shit) and cared shit about it and the separatist senate was useless and clueless. the only ones that could be said were fighting for freedom were the planetary governments (and even then its a big case of "it depends") but well, when every organization and position that matters is contgrolled by the assholes, you get absorbed into that and thrown into irrelevancy.
@@doorcf This , funny when people talk about separatist is not tht bad but toss aside this statement , its the very thing they desire and wht palpy promised them
I always argue that the Republic army was more moral than the Separatist army, but to be fair that is more due to Jedi leadership. Without the Jedi, the clone troopers would at the end of the war still be the same as they were at the start with fewer exceptions. If the Jedi led the Separatist forces, they probably would humanize the battle droids like they did with the clones. Both Republic and Separatist armies were filled with officers who always wanted to win a battle in pretty terrible ways without caring for civilian casualties. The Separatist officers were allowed by Dooku and the Separatist Council to run rampant while the Republic officers were kept on a leash by the Jedi Order. So when the latter officers became Imperials and the Jedi Order was wiped out, they probably were happy to now have permission to no longer hold back. They probably adopted and improved Separatist tactics that they respected and always wanted to try seeing them as more effective in military operations.
heavy disagree, i would argue of the constituancy of each army, that the republic is founded on immoral slavery of clones (they are literal chattle slaves and werent even citizens of the republic, they were property.) And the jedi you see in the show were the literal best ones, obi wan, anakin, ahsoka, plo koon, yoda, di. The CLEAR majority of jedi treated clone soldiers as pong krell did and just followed the cookie cutter tactics that the kaminoans handed them. Take a look at the behaviour of an average soldier in the 212th vs the 501st. and the 212th and the coruscant guard. The CIS on the other hand is literally as moral as an army can reasonably get. Next to zero desertions, COMPLETE accountability to their commanding officers, their entire navy with the exception of a few of the admiralty were all droids, with FEW exception the only lives lost on the battlefield were a couple seperatist officers and nothing but droids. Food wasnt needed to be diverted from worlds to feed a massive army of organics. You can critique its officers all day and night, and i will agree with you, though its worth noting too that the only organic officers we saw in TCW were either seperatist councilmen or handpicks from among their companies, grievous, ventress, trench and literally dooku. Of the super tactical droids (like based gigachad kalani) we got to see almost all of them were getting their tactics made crueller by direct command from dooku. Of the regular tactical droids they were recognized as many times irresponsible or incompetant and phased out. Worth noting that the super tactical droids when acting on their own did almost nothing wrong. Kalani in rebels though the war was still on and treated jedi and clone soldiers as enemies of the state and kept his word on not excecuting his prisoners AND accepted the empire as the bad guy Kalani (gigachad he is) on onderon made extremely sensible decisions and killed the king for being incompetant (considering his crimes its reasonable dookus order or not that he be killed), made accurate statements about the strength of the enemy, and used his units wisely and did not senselessly throw lives away. The super tactical droid on yerbana was willing to accept surrender before the republic literally did a war crime and shot him after obiwan faked surrendering the super tactical droid sending a ship full of rhydonium was hitting a legitimate target. The republic strategy conference, STUFFED FULL OF ENEMY OFFICERS, CAPITAL SHIPS, AND CLONES. The super tactical droid that was defending the plan on a providence class for said bomb was acting in defense of his vessel, no wrongdoing.
@@themecha47 With all due respect, what you argue about the Jedi is prominent in Legends. Jedi in Canon on average seem far more moral. Though to be fair besides the main cast of Jedi, Canon shows, comics, and novels usually focus only on the Jedi Council and new Jedi Padawans. Same with clone trooper units. I would argue that technically neither of us can make a claim on Jedi-Clone relations in Canon because it hasn't been covered beyond the main cast. It's been laid out in Legends how the relationship is on average, but not in Canon. The only real difference that actually has been shown is that in Legends that it was Mandalorians and Anakin that influenced the clone troopers and inspired them to make a culture while in Canon this seems more attributed to the Jedi. Now when it comes to the Separatists, technically it has all it needs to be a very immoral military. Ignoring the officers since both you and I acknowledge who Dooku chose and who made the army and navy for the Separatists in the first place, I have to bring up the fact that in today's world, people are concerned about AI weapons not distinguishing between civilians and combatants. They also don't question orders. But a counter one can say about Separatist battle droids is that they are shown to have personalities, to be free-thinking, and so on. If that's the case though it brings up something more concerning. If droids are sentient like how R2-D2 and C-P30 are and droids can suffer from prejudice and discrimination, that would make the Separatists just as guilty as the Republic with having an army created from birth to fight and die for them. Either way, it's just as morally concerning as how the Republic was with the clones. Either they came out just as bound to orders as they are in Legends that they never question immoral commands or in Canon they have more sentience and independence from one another, making them enslaved people. In fact, I feel I can say in Canon and Legends that without the Jedi, the Republic officers would do the types of things they do in the Empire and the clones wouldn't get a culture and be far more brutal than they were in the Clone Wars, probably even far more brutal than Jango Fett and Mandalorian mercenaries in this era. And even then in both Canon and Legends, the Jedi fell closer and closer to the Dark Side without any proper way to handle that.
Personally, I think Star Wars would of been a far more interesting setting if Palpatines plan worked too well and left the entire galaxy shattered and Balkanized. The Mandalorians revert to their warmongering ways, the Kaminoans establish an empire of their own built on the backs of clones, the Umbarans become a rising technological powerhouse, Sidious forms the Empire with the Republic core worlds, the Jedi survive Order 66 but are forced into a diaspora and hundreds of other of other species and worlds are left to fend for themselves. Though I wonder how a divided galaxy would fare against the Yuuzhan Vong.
Now I know a lot of Canon and not much of Legends, but I say things would become far worse. This version of the galaxy would be far more divided. At least in Legends the galaxy was divided by the New Republic and the Empire, both with powerful armies. In this case only Palpatine has a powerful army. The Mandalorians and Kaminoans would only have control over a limited amount of territory.
now THAT is a story I would love to see, and could've even been made possible in a post Galactic Civil War-era! Can you imagine if in current canon, after the Battle of Endor, instead of a lame New Republic forming to only last about 3 decades before being disintegrated by the First Order, the galaxy as a whole was like "nah thanks, we've already tried a Republic and an Empire - we didn't care for it" and splintered off into different interstellar factions out of mutual distrust and desire for actual independence and cultural/national identity? And the story was about Luke's new Jedi Order, years down the road, trying to keep a fragile galactic peace while braving political subterfuge, covert strike teams, and growing greed and ambitions of not-so-savvy individuals as these new factions basically play a galactic-scale version of Risk + Monopoly with each other?
The Yuuzhan Vong would steam roll the galaxy in this scenario unless they put aside there differences to form colation agsinst them basically the Yuzzhan Vong were attempting to play various factions of the galaxy against each other in the original timeline as well and it took the basically all the major powers working together to beat the Yuzzhan Vong
@@tristankawatsuma8962 yeah, not to mention that the kaminoans would immediately enact all kinds of euthenization programs while the mandos would pillage everything in their sight.
@@miniaturejayhawk8702 I kind of am doubtful about the territorial ambitions of these individual powers. Kaminoans have never had ambitions beyond their own planet. In Legends the only time they raise a clone army for themselves is to free themselves from Imperial rule. The Kaminoans are many things, but I don't think they're imperial. They just like to be left alone. Now since they are an Extragalactic planet that is outside the galaxy, maybe they decide to conquer any other worlds in between the Star Wars galaxy and the nearby Rishi Maze galaxy, but I honestly don't see the Kaminoans becoming conquerors. It just isn't in their nature. As for the Mandalorians, if they were under Maul, they would certainly expand their criminal empire at least until the Jedi intervened, but the Jedi would need an army to succeed. If this timeline happened after the Siege of Mandalore, then Bo-Katan would keep her people in check. While she is a warrior, she doesn't seem like someone who wants to expand militarily. There is a difference between bringing back a warrior culture and becoming an imperial warlord. These two groups while powerful lack the ambition to wield this power, so even in a time of chaos I doubt they would do anything serious. Now if you focused on other factions, then you would have results. The mega corporations on both sides of the war are going to take full advantage of this. The Separatist companies already have the droid army, so assuming they decide to keep working together instead of turning on one another, they can rule a giant portion of the galaxy. the Republic corporations don't have the advantage of giant militaries at their disposal, but they can convince planets to protect them in exchange for material and ships.
I followed with the Separatist as a kid. I never knew why, but I had a strong soft spot for them. When I got older, I came to understand why. The people of the outer rim worlds that made up the Separatist just wanted equality, true representation, and protection from harm. Even though the Separatist were run by some evil people, those people offered them everything they didn't have in the Republic. It made me ask myself which side would I chose in this situation (and had no idea about how evil Dooku and the council were) I would join the Separatist.
Every Clone Wars Episode Ever: Sympathetic Separatist: I and my people have legitimate grievances with the Republic! Help us, Count Dooku! Count Dooku: I am sending you Badguy McEvil-Person, he will take charge of all military assets on your planet. Ugly Shark/Spider Lookin MF: Count Dooku pays me in baby meat! Sympathetic Separatist: *surprised Pikachu face, dies 3/4s of the way through the story arc*
I would disagree on Grievous I mean he had a literal reason to hate the republic even if they messed his memories up, his people were being exterminated when they finally rose up and dealt with those killing them the republic was paid off to punish the original victims
In the end both the Republic and the Confederacy sucked because of Palpatine and the Sith, and everyone suffered because of it, as the opening crawl of RotS states; There are heroes on both sides. Evil is everywhere.
I argue that without the Sith and mega corporations, things would fall apart quickly. These planets were poor and thus has poorly funded defense forces. Pirates and criminals would attack twice as much now that there isn’t even a minuscule of a chance the Republic and Jedi would get involved. Granted now that they have complete control of themselves they can find their own ways to boost their economy, but I doubt this will save them from being exploited. They still have to make deals with corporations who basically ran the Outer Rim or the Hutts who controlled a whole bunch of space. I argue the reasons the Separatists would leave rhe Republic are also the reason it would fail, even if the Republic never went to war. Look what usually happened to the Rebels in Legends and Canon without a common enemy. They usually fractured in their New Republic either being too weak to fight or succumbing to tyranny. Yes, the Separatists have a lot of idealists just like the Rebels, but they would also have their snakes just like the Rebels and not all of the snakes in the CIS were in the Separatist Council or the megacorporations. Building a government is pretty damn hard, especially if you don’t have proper backing.
Poor assumptions. Canoncially the Republic did nothing to protect the outer rim. What made the rim mad was they were exploited and poor but had to also have fairly large militaries (expensive) to defend themselves. If they left the Republic all they would loose is the core world exploration.
Also they already had governments. They don't any governments outside of their planets. You are just an imperialist trying to justify imperialism and exploitation with the moronic and historically wrong assumption that colonies can't survive on their own.
@@matthiuskoenig3378 Okay, I'll admit that many Imperials in real life and a ton in Star Wars usually used this argument to justify all of their actions. However, we also have to remember that in Star Wars, criminals and corporations have a lot more power than they do in real life. The Hutt Clan is a primary example of this. They control a whole piece of territory called Hutt Space with an army of criminals and mercenaries. They are so large and significant that both the Republic and the Separatists, far larger than Hutt Space, actually entered negotiations with them. In the modern age for us, criminals and corporations do most of the shady and immoral stuff behind the scenes. In the Star Wars galaxy they act far more openly. This is of course due to Republic negligence that not only ignored the Outer Rim, but left its protection to the Megacorporations and who only realized things had gone too far by the time of the Invasion of Naboo, at least decades or at most a few centuries after they gave the corporations permission to have armies and navies and gave them seats in the Senate. And of course the Separatists aren't starting from scratch. They still have planetary governments that existed long before they joined the Republic. Now according at least to Canon works, the Separatists promised a smaller and more centralized government that wasn't bogged down by bureaucracy and corruption, but also made the CIS more decentralized than the Republic to the point that they were so laissez-faire that many Republic protections for workers like anti-slavery laws fell apart, though its pretty much known that the Republic didn't really establish law and order across the outer regions of the Republic. A nuanced perspective of the CIS probably would show a centralized military more stronger than the Republic's Judicical Forces. The government would be smaller and more effective. However there comes the questions of what authority and powers they have given the decentralized nature of the CIS. It would seem on the most part that the government and the military would seem to mostly deal with foreign threats like the Republic and the Hutts while the planets handle internal affairs like trade issues. However as we see with the New Republic, the loss of a common enemy can lead to allies turning on one another. Even without the Sith and the megacorporations, no one Separatist planet had the same reason to secede from the Republic. And no one Separatist government was the same. Some were democracies, others were dictatorships, and so on. Clearly an issue is going to break out between the idealists who want the dictatorships to end while the many Separatists may also just ignore this as they have to focus on making a government and finally dealing with the threats of pirates and crime gangs. It would likely be a nonviolent power struggle between the pro-democracy and pro-dictatorship Separatists. Of course there would still be more pressure on these dictatorships to be dealt with since the Republic ignored the Outer Rim and in the CIS these dictatorships are going to make up a larger portion of the government, catching the attention of the citizens. So I suppose to be fair, the CIS system does have a potential to actually work without the Sith and the megacorporations so long as the right people come out on top like the Separatist senators we saw throughout the Clone Wars tv show. Still, we have to remember that the common reason the CIS worlds did leave the Republic is that they suffered from minimal at best and nonexistent at worst attention and representation. No central military to defend them, taxes being paid to the government in exchange for nothing, and no development led by the Republic of their worlds while they were under attack by pirates, gangs, and megacorporations. Beyond that they were very different. I would see the Separatists without the corporations and Dooku going down one of two routes. The first route involves the Republic using grey-zone tactics instead of forming an army to cause trouble for the CIS. They likely will try to take advantage of the dictatorships in the CIS by funding the rebels to cause trouble not just on the dictator worlds, but the rest of the CIS for being complicit, despite the fact that the Republic also ignored these dictators. The Separatists can then fight these rebels since they are backed by the Republic and using terror tactics, presuming these rebels aren't led by Jedi. The other route instead involves the Separatists dealing with these dictator members before the Republic tries to take advantage of it. The dictators then probably would accuse the CIS of being hypocritical for getting involved. It would become divided between those who are against the dictators and those that don't trust any form of central government. To put it simply, the CIS has a number of ways it can turn out. The Republic became what it was over centuries of war, peace, and democracy. The Separatists were formed in the span of two years before the Clone Wars. This hurried alliance of planets would certainly lead to internal tension. Of course an easy way around this would be for a peaceful creation of two seperate states and given the Separatists are mostly filled with poor planets, this would be a preferrable option to either a civil war or a series of political assasinations and sabotage of groups. Still, it can basically be argued that even without the Jedi, the Republic, the Sith, and the Megacorporations, there is a damn good chance the Separatists can fail and fall apart. If nto for economic reasons, then certainly for political reasons.
The Seperatists' military officials where all pretty much evil, but their politicians where actually surprisingly decent. I remember how most of them voting in favor of peace with the Republic in that one episode, for example.
When I used to be a dedicated fan of Star Wars, I unironically saw the Confederacy as the real good guys with dubious leadership. The problem is that CIS war crimes are shown in the way that makes you feel like "OMG, they're so evil!" while Republic war crimes are shown in the light which makes you think "Cool, these muuns and geonosians deserved genocide, so cool! Flamethrowers are such a humane weapon, kill the bugs!". But they're war crimes too, and they're acts of genocide.
I gotta say the Sepratists at least the council had good intentions it's just how the Sith and the military went about putting them into place that made it evil.
The CIS were literally just the Rebel Alliance, but instead of heroes being at the forefront, what they got were villians. Resulting in the galaxy hating seperatist, which said hate would transfer over to the Rebellion. All part of Palpatine's plan.
@@subcommanderxelios800 not quite, the rebel allegiance wanted to restore the republic, the confederacy wanted to protect themselves from the repercussions of declaring independence. Yes, both sides are rebels, but still opposite ideologies. As we seen in rogue one with Saw Guerrera, not every rebellion figth for the same cause or with the same methods.
@@Ivan_Berni Well, some separatist did join the Rebellion. Not to mention that both the Confederacy and the Rebellion despise tyranny. So still, same cause, but different goals.
@@subcommanderxelios800 the confederacy was tyrannical in their systems, they didn't wanted the republic to control them, the republic IS the good side, always has been, it was never tyrannical before Sheev, they literally invaded a planet and overthrow a peaceful government because they didn't liked taxes, and thats just the commerce guild, the other confederates did worse things.
@@Ivan_Berni Never tyrannical? Mabye from first glance, yes but the outer rim systems were heavily subjected to exploitation, neglect and even racism by the Republic. In other words, the Republic never really cared for the outer rim planets and from the point of view from the CIS, if an organization continues to do the things I just mentioned, there is no point in staying. You don't stay on a sinking ship.
In regards to just the Separatist government, most of them actually were just simply trying to obtain a more fair & balanced life outside of the Republic’s overwhelming moral corruption and lack of overall compassion towards the smaller systems. However, because Dooku willingly chose the worst & most selfish corporate figures to be part of the Leadership Council (under Sidious’s instructions), the cause was doomed to fail as a result, becoming no better than what the Republic was at this point (even before it became the Empire, as planned by the Sith). Sad to show that even the most noble of causes can end up breaking down into a twisted husk of itself if the wrong people end up in positions of power.
Most Clones are always going to be heroes to me, with a few exceptions: Neyo, Faie, and so on, so anyone who's against the Nobel and great Clones I love and support is my enemy.
@@zexalbrony4799 they were made heroes by the dear Emperor, if it wasn't for the Senate adopting freedom-ending full power to the chancellor this army and clones would never had to be heroes. The clones are virtual heroes in a virtual war that is irrelevant from it's very start. the war is just a decoy master Yoda thought that it was the clone war had begun and it was this that he couldn't have foresaw in his vision but quite the contrary the clone wars was a trick of Palpatine so that the Great Master Yoda and the other Jedis/generas could not attend on matter of the force. he distracted them baited them onto an ennemy that was just a creation of the Sith.
In the first episodes the CSI was the CSI of the movies: a government ruled by greedy individuals, involved with galaxy corporations etc... After the third season things are changed with character like Bonteri
Grievous I kinda disagree with, while he did do all that fucked-up shit during the Clone Wars, his mind was tampered and altered with against his wishes by the CIS and the Sith, fucked up shit aside he fits more with the Parliament than the CIS council as he and his people like the parliament genuine reasons for opposing the Republic and Jedi after both of them screwed the Kaleesh in the decades before and after Grievous was born, and was essentially their De Facto leader, he and his people wanted to be left alone on their homeworld to their devices, only for the Huk, Republic, and Jedi to screw them over left and right.
Okay, as much as I am pro-clone troopers and thus like seeing them take down droids, it seems a little too far to call Canon Count Dooku xenophobic. Legends Dooku as revealed in the novelization of Revenge of the Sith is of course xenophobic and according to Canon Dooku did want some type of Sith Empire, but given his hesitancy to betray Ventress I question if we can call him a racist. Yes, his homeworld is full of humans, but even though I see Dooku as a Star Wars version of Megatron who went from revolutionary to tyrant, I just can’t think of Dooku as being anti-alien, at least not to the extent of Palpatine and the Galactic Empire. Not saying he isn’t a tyrannical Sith Lord, just saying there is a difference between him in Canon and Legends, like how it is with clone troopers.
Is just hard to think someone that was a Jedi is a racist, i mean, we seen him around aliens every time, in geonosis, in the confederate council, with his apprentices, with grievous, he seems to be above those things.
As someone who hates paying taxes and dealing with government beuaracracy, I am sympathetic to the CIS. As far as a lot of worlds are concerned, there's not much difference between the Republic and the Empire.
I honestly believe everyone is wrong about General Grievous. Not in the idea that he was ruthless and a murderer, but that he was genuinely evil. I don't think he truly was, atleast not without the tampering of the sith, cis, and jedi. They all played a hand in making Grievous the monstrous mass murderer he was. He was genuinely tricked into being a master of death, and I think that people should take that into consideration. Dooku, Palpatine, and the cis made him. The jedi were his main targets due to the failures of theirs as well as the lies of the dark side. I'm not saying Grievous was a good guy, because he for sure wasn't (although I find him to be a badass if you forget abt canon). What I am saying, is that his hatred wasn't exactly evil to me. Keep in mind, he gave himself and his life up as a slave to the banking clan for the safety of his species. Victimized and used as a weapon his whole life, I genuinely think that greivous could've just as easily been a great jedi had they helped his species instead of the Yam'rii. Thanks for reading!!! :D
While you can say the Republic became more tyrannical during the Clone Wars, I would say the Separatists were at least more corrupt than pre-Clone Wars Republic. Even though the megacorporations had a lot of power granted to them by the Republic Senate, this power was still limited to the outer regions of the Republic. By the time of the Invasion of Naboo, senators were finally realizing how out of control things were. If it wasn’t for Palpatine, the Senate would have moved to heavily limit the megacorporations due to the negative opinion of them after they pulled off an illegal military operation on Naboo. If anything it may be argued that the senators of the Republic were more scared of the Separatist Council than the rest of the CIS. Yes, a mass secession by Outer Rim, Expansion Region, Mid Rim and other worlds would damage the reputation of the Republic, hence the debate over the Military Creation Act. However senators were still on the fence of breaking 1,000 years of tradition of a demilitarized Republic. It took the discovery of the megacorporations siding with the CIS and forming a massive army for them to agree to pass the bill. Palpatine needed a threat and the Separatists on their own, even if they were filled with long enemies of the Republic like the Zygerrians and Mandalorians didn’t really warrant massive retaliation. I admit the Republic would probably try grey-zone operations against the Separatists with the Jedi Order, the Judicial Forces, and the Planetary Defense Forces like China with Taiwan, war was still something planets were hesitant to try. But when the megacorporations form a massive army and join the CIS, the same megacorporations who basically had their own little kingdoms in the Outer Rim and who had invaded and occupied an entire planet just ten years ago, fear spiked up. It took what could be seen as a legitimate threat to the Republic for them to hand power over to Palpatine. It basically is what he did for the entire war. Without the Separatists, either the megacorporations are finally stopped by the Senate or things return back to before the Invasion of Naboo. So technically the Separatists kind of lost the argument on corruption as soon as the Separatist Council was formed. Now of course the Republic still isn’t pure on the corruption side. Look at how Kamino became a member in such a short time while other worlds even closer to the Core than the planet outside the galaxy that few knew of had to wait years. Still, it is kind of a sad irony. While the Republic became interested in tying a leash on the megacorporations they were leaving slack for years, the Separatists who hated those corporations in the first place had to work with them. Even if the Separatists were justified, they had the worst timing. We all know Palpatine was about to leave office due to term limits when the Separatist Crisis happened. It’s quite possible that a newly elected chancellor such as the popular Bail Organa would have revived efforts to limit the powers of the corporations and address corruption in the Senate. Instead Palpatine is allowed to stay in office for five more years before he becomes emperor. Of course the Separatists couldn’t have known that if they rose up they would be playing right into the hands of Palpatine, but still. Of course if the tried this before the Invasion of Naboo, the Republic would just leave the megacorporations to handle it which they would, harshly. Still, damn terrible timing, even if it was planned by the Sith. And on top of everything, they basically gave the megacorporations more power than even the Republic did. Again, the megacorporations in terms of operations were limited in where they could run wild. In the CIS, they and the official army of the Separatists had full run of the whole region. Yes, it was basically the same sectors they worked in with a few exceptions, but not only did they have permission from the government to operate, but they even were the government. Not just senators and paying off elected officials, but actually the heads of defense and military operations. The Separatists Senate at least limited the role the corporations had inside of them, as can be seen with how the Corporate Alliance and the War Faction are outnumbered by the Peace and Independence Factions, but it’s kind of pointless since they entrust the Separatist Council to defending them and trust Dooku to keep them on a leash despite the fact he is a literal count of a powerful and rich house on his homeworld. Again, the Republic fell to fear and tyranny as corporations were nationalized and the executive branch had more power than anybody else in the government and as soon as the Empire was born, military governors and moffs like Tarkin and Rampart had more power than senators over planets and sectors. However the Separatists in my mind lost the corruption argument as they did the opposite of what people in the Republic wanted to do, the opposite of what people on Separatist worlds wanted to do. In a way, I view the Separatists like the Decepticons in the first IDW Continuity that ended a few years ago. From people with legitimate grievances to becoming worse than their enemy, at least until their enemy became an empire as soon as the war ended. I also view Dooku to be like Megatron in that Transformers universe. They both saw issue with the old system and even tried working with friends to make changes. Dooku with his friends in the Jedi Order as well as the people of Serenno after he left the Jedi and the Republic and Megatron with miners, workers, and the oppressed classes who became the Decepticons. However both become corrupted as they realize peaceful change is slow. They give in to fighting, however given their backgrounds of believing in power and force, this further drives them down the wrong path until they decide tyranny is better than corruption and democracy. Of course in real life, not every revolution ends with real changes. One leader is simply replaced by another. While I believe Dooku’s Empire would be better than Palpatine’s, it would still be as bad as Sith Empires usually are. Look at how the Fey Empire which is the only empire to not delve in the dark side in Legends lasts so long.
Lmao, the Republic was corrupt for more reasons than just the mega corperations. You have millions of worlds being represented by a couple hundred people. The Republic was a corrupt empire, pretending to be a democracy. The separatists were in dependant planets loosely affiliated for the purpose of fighting the war. The existence of the counsel doesn't matter for cis corruption becuase they had no power over civilian affairs. Only military. Meanwhile in the Republic you had corrupt politicians Andega corperations haveing a say in both military and civilian affairs. Aswell as a signifcnaly more centralised (and thus inhernelty more corrupt) state.
There were many planets with legitimate reasons to want to leave the Republic, but you must also take into account the actions they take and what the consequences can be for them leaving. Jaibiim had good reasons to want to leave, but their leadership were jerks who killed the innocent people on their own planet who didn't agree and wanted to stay in the Republic, that is wrong, which puts them somewhere in the middle of good and evil. Then we have Umbara, you can argue they had a good reason to join the CIS, but their leaving puts the Wookies and many other nearby Republic worlds in danger because now the Separatists have them boxed in and can cut off trade to them and kill them, the actions of the Umbaran's put my friends the Wookies in danger so I still think the invasion of their planet is completely justified. Then you have planets like New Plympto they have legit reasons to leave and their not hurting anyone with their actions or contributions, but the Republic invades their planet anyways, in that light the New Plympto people are on the good side of things. The one thing The Clone Wars taught us is that war is complicated and there can be heroes on both sides, as well as villains on both sides, and the sides someone chooses will depend on their own views and what they see, despite being able to understand the plights of many Separatists, I am still loyal to the Republic because of good people in it like Obi-Wan, Anakin, Ahsoka, Plo Koon, Rex, Fives, The Bad Batch(minus Crosshair right now), Jesse, Hardcase, Hhevy, 99, Cody, Waxxer, Boil, Wolffee, Padme, Bail, Mon Mothma, Chu Chi, Tills, Ackbar, and so on. I stay because of my loyalty to them.
Which is an interesting analysis. Personally the moral lines between the Republic and CIS were always gray. The best way I could sum it up would be this. The Republic was fighting the war right for the wrong reasons while the CIS were fighting the war wrong for the right reasons. However, the thing is while the CIS did conduct acts of cruelty, I would not argue there wasn't good reasoning behind it, given the complacency and in some cases imposing of death, economic strangulation, and exploitation the Republic did. To be clear, this does not excuse the actions. But I don't think it is as simple as they were committing acts of evil for the sake of it. To many of them, what they were doing to the Republic was simply the same acts the Republic imposed on many of its individual worlds. Take Grievous for example on why he hated the Republic in the first place. He hated it because the corruption in the senate caused the Republic and Jedi to side with the very same group of people that were trying to enslave the Kaleesh. And that is where the issue laid, the Republic in a sense did not care about a world unless it provided some kind of strategic interest to them. Jabiim is a very good example of that. Or you take Umbara which left based on the corruption the Republic was enacting during the war, and arguably simply wanted to be left alone. While I can agree that the Republic did have good people, I would argue that many of them were complacent or part of the injustice problem. Anakin in spite of his good and caring nature was still a closeted fascist. The rest of the Jedi were complacent within the injustice the Republic were doing without attempting any kind of reform or at the very least not bend to their whim in order to help others. And while the clones were in a sense honorable soldiers, they did not hold much activism within understanding the Republic's faults. Both because of the (Inhibitor chip in canon and their conditioning in Legends) but also because the clones in spite of their great sense of duty were rather ignorant to why the war was being fought and saw it in a very black and white manner throughout most of it. As much as I hold sympathy for those characters and never believed the Republic was beyond fixing, to me it was at best questionable that the Republic as a whole felt it could not share the galaxy with another galactic power in co existence. Something most CIS members were ok with doing. For that reason, it is hard for me to decide which side I would of ended up on without the benefit on hindsight from the Sith grand plan.
@@kingorange7739 Ah, King Orange, my old friend/Star War debating rival. It's good to see you. Although, this time won't be much of a debate because I agree with a lot of you're points and their very good ones. I also think you summed it up best about the way and reasons the Republic and CIS fought. And it actually can relate back to Geetsly ending statement about the CIS in a way. The Republic had the wrong reasons to fight wanting to force the leaving planets back into the Republic, but the way they fought the war was the right way for the most part. True there were some evil men leading the Republic forces or just jerks who would do anything to win, which included some Jedi outside of just the ones that fell to The Dark Side during the war, but there were just as many good-natured and kind Jedi, as well as a few good Clones and Republic officers all in pretty high positions during the war, which allowed many of them to order their specific battles to be done as clean as they could be and save as many lives as possible. While most of the CIS had legitimate and right reasons for wanting to fight the war breaking away from a Republic that had many times neglected and wronged them, but they fought the war the wrong way. Of course, it didn't help that most of the high-ranking CIS leaders were evil or greedy people thus many times they would be overly cruel and bloodthirsty on the battle field, which of course was Palpatine's and Dooku's plan to make these evil CIS members have the most power and become the face of the CIS so the people of the Republic would blindly assume all CIS members or anyone else who rebels is just as bad and that the Republic later the Empire must take control of them for there to be peace and safety. Both sides did horrible things during the war and both had both good and bad people apart of them, with the good people trying to temper the bad ones when they could, but many of the good people in the Republic had a high enough position in the GAR to actually use it to at least lighten the bloodshed, whereas most of the CIS's good people had very little power as most of it went to the bad people so almost all of the CIS battle tactics were much worse and cruel. So I think the good people in the Republic were able to temper the bad ones a bit better than the CIS good people could do for their bad ones. However, one point I would argue with is the CIS having good reasons to be cruel. Sure many of them had suffered under the Republic, but that doesn't mean they should do the same things back to the Republic, because then that makes them no better than the Republic. Ironically enough, just yesterday I was rewatching Geetsly's video on why the Bad Batch kept setting their blasters to stun and it can relate to this since his idea was they were choosing to be better by choosing not to kill, we all have a choice to be better and the CIS could have chosen to be better and not do the same horrible things to the Republic that the Republic had previously done to them, but they didn't. Again, after everything that the Republic had done to many of them they had good reasons to want to fight back for their freedom, but again they didn't have to be that cruel they could have fought back in a better way and chosen to be better. Of course, all these interesting ideas and analyses you propose all just again proves one of the overall messages the Clone Wars taught us, and one of the most important ones, that war is complicated. And also reaffirms why this series is a great subject for analysis and friendly debate.
@@zexalbrony4799 "Ah, King Orange, my old friend/Star War debating rival. It's good to see you." - Likewise my friend. Having discussions with you is perhaps one of my highlights in partaking in the Star Wars community. "Although, this time won't be much of a debate because I agree with a lot of you're points and their very good ones." - Thanks. I am interesting into reading more into yours. "I also think you summed it up best about the way and reasons the Republic and CIS fought. And it actually can relate back to Geetsly ending statement about the CIS in a way. The Republic had the wrong reasons to fight wanting to force the leaving planets back into the Republic, but the way they fought the war was the right way for the most part. True there were some evil men leading the Republic forces or just jerks who would do anything to win, which included some Jedi outside of just the ones that fell to The Dark Side during the war, but there were just as many good-natured and kind Jedi, as well as a few good Clones and Republic officers all in pretty high positions during the war, which allowed many of them to order their specific battles to be done as clean as they could be and save as many lives as possible." - Which does hold good points. The Republic did conduct themselves fairly well within the war, especially within the earlier years. Only exception would be false surrenders. Which is a testament to their ability to adapt considering how unprepared they were for a war to happen.. I would argue that their occupation treatments plus contingencies such as Order 37 and Base Delta Zero did cause the Republic to conduct the war far more aggressively by the late war point. Much of this was of course due to the fact that Palpatine was gaining more power and the Republic war getting ever closer to the Empire, but I would also claim that much of that sentiment came from the senate's complacency due to war fatigue. "While most of the CIS had legitimate and right reasons for wanting to fight the war breaking away from a Republic that had many times neglected and wronged them, but they fought the war the wrong way. Of course, it didn't help that most of the high-ranking CIS leaders were evil or greedy people thus many times they would be overly cruel and bloodthirsty on the battle field, which of course was Palpatine's and Dooku's plan to make these evil CIS members have the most power and become the face of the CIS so the people of the Republic would blindly assume all CIS members or anyone else who rebels is just as bad and that the Republic later the Empire must take control of them for there to be peace and safety." - Which is very much true, and it often makes you wonder to what extent the CIS may had conducted the war differently had the Sith not interfered or if Dooku was fighting to actually win the war. While I will agree many CIS commanders were cruel, I do still believe there were a decent amount of honorable CIS commanders such as Loathsome, Mar Tuk, Ser’verance Tann, and Mandalore the Resurector aka Spar. “Both sides did horrible things during the war and both had both good and bad people apart of them, with the good people trying to temper the bad ones when they could, but many of the good people in the Republic had a high enough position in the GAR to actually use it to at least lighten the bloodshed, whereas most of the CIS's good people had very little power as most of it went to the bad people so almost all of the CIS battle tactics were much worse and cruel. So I think the good people in the Republic were able to temper the bad ones a bit better than the CIS good people could do for their bad ones.” - Maybe in the context of on the battlefield, but there were many moral dilemmas the Republic was willing to overlook for the sake of winning the war. A good example would be the use of the clones. Not only were they not given the option to opt out of fighting, but they were not even regarded politically as human beings with rights but rather property. As such, one critique the CIS was right about was that the Republic was basically using a slave army with little to no plan on what do even do with the clones in the post war. “However, one point I would argue with is the CIS having good reasons to be cruel. Sure many of them had suffered under the Republic, but that doesn't mean they should do the same things back to the Republic, because then that makes them no better than the Republic.” - Which is agreeable. At no point would I condone the CIS actions. No matter which way you slice it too wrongs don’t make a right. I am only explaining the mindset many CIS members had and that it was somewhat hypocritical of the Republic to callout the CIS cruelty when much of it were things the Republic did at one point also do. “Ironically enough, just yesterday I was rewatching Geetsly's video on why the Bad Batch kept setting their blasters to stun and it can relate to this since his idea was they were choosing to be better by choosing not to kill, we all have a choice to be better and the CIS could have chosen to be better and not do the same horrible things to the Republic that the Republic had previously done to them, but they didn't.” - Which is true. And unfortunately for the CIS, that was the biggest things that made the war gray. Had the CIS conducted the war in a similar manner to the Republic, there would be little doubt which side would be in the right. But the big problem with the way the CIS was created and ultametely fell was that it strayed much from its original intentions. “Again, after everything that the Republic had done to many of them they had good reasons to want to fight back for their freedom, but again they didn't have to be that cruel they could have fought back in a better way and chosen to be better. Of course, all these interesting ideas and analyses you propose all just again proves one of the overall messages the Clone Wars taught us, and one of the most important ones, that war is complicated. And also reaffirms why this series is a great subject for analysis and friendly debate.” - Which is very much true, and it is as geestlys said. The CIS would likely not had been organized the way it did if it was not for Dooku. And it leads to the questioning of what a post war CIS would potentially look like. Pro Republic fans often see it as a stereotypical good vs evil with the Republic being a shining beaken and the CIS being an evil sith puppet. The CIS fans viewing it as a Authoritarian Republic vs Libertarian CIS. Personally I reject both of these concepts. To me, taking the Sith plan out of the equation for a moment. I would argue that the war between the Republic and CIS were two competting concepts of galactic nationhood. The Republic was very much based on the notion that everyone was part of it, the parts of the whole. As such I would almost theorize that was some of the rationale of the poor treatment of outer rim worlds. It was based on the idea of “Hey we are all on the same team, so you shouldn’t care that we need resources for the Republic as a whole.” The CIS on the otherhand believed that the concept of nationhood was very conditional on the sums of its parts, rather than subscribing to one ideology or way of life. The CIS instead view themselves more as a collective that is working for mutual gain. The problem with this line of thinking though is it makes it easy to turn a blind eye to evils committed based on the idea of “It is on their world, so it is their problem.” This is where the CIS council likely would of became extremely powerful, as they would be able to do some sketchy things behind the parliament’s back without interference since they do control the CIS military. The key concept is almost how it is framed. The Republic IS a galactic power. The CIS ARE a galactic power. I would like to hear more of your thoughts, but this is my perspective.
@@kingorange7739 "I would like to hear more of your thoughts, but this is my perspective." - Well, without the Sith Grand Plan the Clones wouldn't have been created, but if the corporate powers still allied with the CIS then most likely the war would have been a lot shorter with how much more manpower the CIS would have and the Republic would either be forced to surrender or be forced to try and co-exist with the CIS, depending on how much power the Separatist Council and Separatist Parliament had over each other. Of course, I'm more interested in what the outcome of the war would have been if Palpatine was stopped before Order 66, like what if the Jedi believed Fives or at least put the pieces together after discovering Dooku was Tyranus, or like Geetsly pointed out in a video about what would happen if Obi-Wan and Anakin went to Mandalore with Ahsoka to deal with Maul and how everything changes because of those factors. If Palpatine was stopped in time, the war would have probably ended very differently and the aftermath would have been a lot different since in the immediate aftermath the Empire started immediately oppressing and taking control of entire planets and systems, but the Republic while still very corrupted would have still had many good-natured Jedi and even some good Senators since in this timeline most of those on the Delegation of 2000 weren't arrested or killed immediately following the rise of the Empire like they were in the original timeline, so there might have been more peace and less occupation, but there still would have been some planets that continued to suffer because of the corrupt Republic like before, but I don't think it would have been as bad as the Empire, I at least image loyal Republic worlds like Ryloth and Kashyyyk would have been left alone instead of immediately attack and occupied like in canon for Ryloth and legends for Kashyyyk. I also think those good-natured Jedi and Senators would have tried to help the Clones become free, whether or not they succeeded would be debatable given how corrupt the Senate still would be even without Palpatine, but they would still make the attempt because in this timeline many of the morally good people would still be alive and have some decent authority in the Republic to try and make things better after the war ended, instead of the Empire just making things even worse than before.
@@kingorange7739 I wouldn't say Anakin was a fascist before his turn, more like he held some authoritarian views privately, while being loyal to the Jedi way and the ideals of the Republic. And his views on the Jedi needing to be more ruthless and effective in fighting the war were justified, since it would've won the war sooner and saved more lives overall. The Republic was still right to fight the war as the massive droid army led by a darksider was a clear threat, the rights or wrongs of secession notwithstanding. The "good' Separatists were simply useful idiots of Dooku and Gunray (who were themselves duped by Sidious).
So basically the Republic and CIS can be summed up the same. There were many good People on both sides but both sides also included some of the worst people in galactic history
Seps and the republic is basically the rebellion vs the empire just in different times both the rebellion and the confederacy were fighting for freedom
Agreed. Almost like George sat back and went "I will get people to cheer the first generation of the Empire." The CIS is similar to the Rebels and the Resistance, just marketed differently.
I like how in the EU the empire didn't go 100 percent away and the remaining pieces was allowed to co-exist with the new republic. That's great for those who came from absolute unstable backgrounds which means they would have a solid ground to launch themselves into the greater galaxy. Imagine a mother from a war torn planet who's fleeing with her children from not only from her planet but an abusive spouse as well. The remnant of the empire likely had jobs programs and housing of some form, especially given that they want to show the galaxy that they changed. With a stable life the family could then rebuild their lives such as technical institutions where the refugee children could become star ship mechanics or something else that would provide them access to gainful employment outside of the empire if they so wish to leave it. Imagine going from something like a War Hammer 40k death planet to a factory job,subsidized housing, and a half-way decent school district. That's more can be said than what the Jedi did for Anakin Sky Walker's mother. They could have paid to release his mother from captivity at least.
When you really get down to it, basically the whole galaxy got a raw deal out of the clone wars. Either fight for an aging, ever darkening republic or a separatist group backed by the worst of the galaxy's mega corporations running a veritable campaign of terror. Win or lose, the Republic or the CIS, the whole galaxy was in for dark times ahead regardless.
People are never truly evil or good everybody exists somewhere in between, making decisions for the best outcomes that benefit them and their interests, a collection of souls trying to make it through the horror show that is life. Are we all not guilty of making bad decisions, then only to regret them instantly after we come face to face with truth of what we have done or created.
Seems it depends on the individual Separatists on question. However NOT being evil DON'T justify just committing heinous atrocities and claiming "it's nothing personal", "just business", "was only obeying orders" and plenty probably various other excuses.
O/T: When Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan reported to the Jedi council with Anakin, *and reported on the existence of the Sith* after the first encounter with Darth Maul, _Why_ didn't the Jedi Council call out the big guns then and there? Instead they decided that the Naboo rescue mission should just be the same bunch who escaped… returning. *Yoda:* A Sith? everything this changes. Master Windu accompany you back he will, along with any Jedi Masters chooses he does. On the ground Maul gets diced and _quadsected_ by Mace Windu, the Trade Federation is taken down far quicker as the city raid has far more muscle. The Gungans will have some quality spec ops troops (just don't let the Jedi be Generals - they will have the Gungans marching outside the protection of their shields). And the space battle won't be such a fluke with spinning saving the day, as Jedi pilots will run rings around those earlier generation droid fighters. Yet later on at Geonosis, they send in a hundred or so Jedi for the arena rescue, including even the mid level students who get gunned down. Yes it was the tip of the spear of a full military campaign with their newly discovered Clone army. But it showed that the Jedi could muster a large number of their own people at a moment's notice.
See but thats the beautiful thing about the prequels as much as people used to love to hate on them george knew what he was doing see the reason that didn't happen is because the jedi were ignorant throughout the whole prequels remember in phantom menace they say the return of the sith is impossible and then after maul was quote on quote killed palpatine and dooku were thr only ones left and they didn't believe dooku to be as evil as he was and palpatine was manipulative the whole trilogy yes everything could've and should've been prevented but you have to remember just how good of a villain palpatine is he had planned all this for years and brought the most powerful
Dooku is a prime example of someone who hijacks a movement and use it for their own selfish ends. Dude had no morals he would look someone straight in the face and tell them he’s a friend while he ignites his lightsaber
3:59 one of the few times I've seen fascist used right in recent memory. Corporatism(or more rarely syndicalism)+national (ethnonationalism or otherise)+militarism= fascism. So Dooku is a literal fascist as well as a racist (speciesist?)
Come all ye’ sons of freedom and join our southern band, We’re going to fight the Yankees and drive them from our land! Justice is our motto and Providence our guide, So jump into the wagon and we’ll all take ride! _Wait for the wagon, the Dissolution Wagon, the South is a Wagon and we’ll all take ride!_
They'd be seen in a way better light if they didn't have megacorporations like the Trade Federation, Banking Clan, Techno Union on their side, and the Zygerrian Slave Empire, as well as having a guy that's been confirmed as a Sith by the Jedi as the head of Parliament.
I hate that star wars makes each planet comparable to a tiny country or a city. Seriously, how does a planet of a few billion people(on the high end) starve to death? They either need to increase the populations or explain this disparity. On Tatooine, ok everyone's going to starve without trade, but they are probably there for a reason. At least I hope so and there's not billions of them, probably less than a million. But a real planet with billions is going to have an ecosystem, even if it is imported. So the only planets that should be pressured by trade are city planets, like the core world's. Everyone else should be fine living alone, especially for just a few years.
The ironic part is that i would have most likely joined the sepratists and the rebublic allowed this faction to happen. I would stand with the good side of it obviously but the problem with both sides were corrupt by the true leaders.
Some didn't deserve damnation, yes, but since they fought on the wrong side of history, well... can't agree to spare them entirely, you know. No sacrifice, no victory, even if it means innocents and good folk being sacrificed to appease the Multiverse and such.
There was no right side of history in that conflict. The Republic were just as horrible, and became the Empire before the war even ended. And the crimes of the Empire continued after it achieved victory.
Could you do a take on what if Palpatine had Grievous kill the CIS high council instead of Vader. Like he could order him under the idea that they were a main reason that the CIS was losing. With their deaths the CIS would have a better shot at a comeback, or at the very least Palps. would have further plans for Grievous in the Empire. Like a super bodyguard or a personal assassin.
He killed him because he would much rather have anakin then grievous (which hurts cause he’s my top 5 fav Star Wars characters) if obi wan was never sent after grievous there was a lower chance that anakin would have turned since obi wan was still in the picture, also grievous had loyalty to dooku and with dooku dead there was no guessing what grievous would do.
It very difficult to judge the entire CIS as a whole due to its structure and loose affiliations! I’m sure when it came to local planetary governments that wanted to secede from the Republic for the best interest of their people then from that perspective the separatist were good! But the corporate members and the army of the separatist were bad but the same can be said for the controversial republic army which also did their fair share of harm towards innocent civilians during the war!
@@kingorange7739 The films *say* that…. but then don’t expand upon it in any meaningful way at all. We never really see the Separatists being virtuous, and the Jedi performing objectively bad actions.
@@TitusCastiglione1503 um there have been plenty of times in the PT where the Jedi performed objectively bad actions and decisions. As for the CIS, the only reason more coverage wasn’t done on them was because all the POV characters were associated with the Republic.
@@TitusCastiglione1503 I mean we can start with their complacency with slavery in the outer rim, leaving Anakin’s mother in slavery despite having the capabilities to free her, attacking Geonosis thus starting the Clone Wars, and in Mace’s case trying to assassinating Palpatine without even thinking of the knock on effects of such an action.
I believe that the Confederacy of Independent Systems was good, and that it did not look down on none human races , and that there senate was less corrupt than the Republic and if they destroyed the Republic there would be no Galactic Empire
Good intention's being exploited by bad leadership. And that is the Dooku of legends, not canon. In canon , he isn’t a racist, but still a noble idealist fascist who saw the Sith plan as the best way toward making just system for the majority species and worlds
I did once envision reality well instead of the new Republic most of the star systems outside The core separated and the form their own nations after the empire fall sort of like a Star Wars version of the medieval period the core reform into the new Empire that’s meant to represent the Byzantines and the Mandalorian‘s or the new Mandalorian empire The Arabs as well as the church of the force basically Christianity
The CIS was one of the more evil aligned factions in the Star Wars fiction but it wasn't solely evil a good deal of the separatist parliament actually supported and in Mon Mothima's case formed the Rebel Alliance an alliance that saw a good many clones who survived and had free will during the galactic civil war join such as captain Rex so saying it's completely black and white would be a lie.
And this I would agree with. That was the sad thing. Both the Republic and CIS had terrible flaws that ultimately made them overall morally corrupt systems.
That's because the one thing both factions had in common, was Palpatine who either didn't genuinely care or was content in letting the CIS be slaughtered after it survived it's purpose
Umbara: Ok In my book, they OVERREACTED. Just because the senator was assassinated doesn't mean the republic was to blame. It could have EASILY been an independent contractor. I invite anyone to shed some light on this point if I am missing details. nsd yes, tchnically they didn't do anything wrong when seceding, they still overreacted in my book
The separatists weren't inheritently evil they wanted anything from retribution to independence and were taken advantage of by Sidious and Dooku and the corrupt core factions they had assembled.
"The Clone Wars was a terrific show with plenty of valuable lessons for children and adults alike." Burn your enemies alive with flamethrowers, execute wounded and helpless enemy combatants, support terrorist elements to weaken governments opposed to you... All good things to learn
I think the true believers of the seperatist movement were disappointed in what their movement became. Then of course they banded together with the true believers of the republic and eventually formed the rebellion
Jabiim was 100% justified. It's also apparant that Jabiim was meant to be synonymous with Vietnam. In Vietnam's case. It was a colony of France for the longest time and the French treated them like complete shit. The rest of the west did nothing to help kick the French out of Vietnam. Then all of a sudden, the USSR and China offer to assist Vietnam and the U.S. is worried about Vietnam causing other countries in Asia to turn communist, so all of a sudden they take an interest in Vietnam. No different than Jabiim. Just factions looking to take advantage of the little guy.
People don’t understand just how ruthless and cruel Dooku was. He led billions of people under the idea of freedom with no intention of his side winning the war. The opposite in fact. He was purposefully leading them to their deaths.
The man was looking to build a human ethnostate. Palpy wasn't racist, and although he did make the empire human centrist he wasn't nearly as bad as dooku would have been.
@@Tom_Cruise_Missile It always did strike me upon a closer look at the generals and CIS leaders the Jedi faced that they seemed almost comically corrupt and evil...it's very easy to write this off as making for easy storytelling and a clear bad guy. Till you remember the two-sided nature of the war and that there were good people with honest intentions in the CIS...BUT those people were not being given command positions, then it becomes clear that Dooku was stacking the deck putting the most horrible CIS people at the forefront to make them easy targets for the Jedi, who wouldn't question fighting against such corrupt and evil people.
Meanwhile, as the video says, he kept the actual good people caroled in the parliament and very clearly was duping them all, keeping information about exactly how bad the CIS military was conducting itself from them (sure they found out about some of the stuff, but it was clear they didn't know Dooku had serial war criminals fighting the war for them), and if a member of parliament acted up too much he had them killed and blamed it on the Republic.
No I think Dooku wanted to win the war how ever his master cause the war to end.
@@SalinaMoonfall in Legends Dooku sent a promising and noble Mon Cala commander to die over Kamino to remove him as a political threat.
@@Tom_Cruise_Missile I think Palpatine was actually too evil to care about such things as "race", and was ultimately willing to treat those who weren't all that different from himself with the same cruelty.
I'd love to seem some lore master tackle the Alternate timeline idea of Palpatine deciding to have the CIS win the Clone wars and form the Empire.
Since Sidious sought to establish human supremacy over galactic civilization, it would be difficult to justify a timeline where he engineered the victory of the CIS. Remember, his primary goal was to eliminate the Jedi. At least, that's what the legacy of Bane instructed the Sith to work towards
@@supercellodude Yeah my idea was he wanted an absolutely loyal battle droid army to be his military. You know someone who wouldn't question orders or need training. Also he could still pull order 66 and then just not deactivate the droid army which the Republic would be hard pressed to fight off with the loss of their jedi
@@zacharyweaver276 you're thinking of the war solely in the military aspect.
Consider how many separatist worlds were alien.
Droids and aliens were the controlled opposition _ because_ Palpatine wanted to create a human supremacist government, and wanted to use the memory of the Clone Wars to fuel the bigotry and hatred. While exploiting that hatred and scars, for political gain.
@@alexanderrahl7034 True but what if he didn't care about it being a human centrist government and just wanted to become Emperor while also wiping out the Jedi and any other opposition to his power?
@@supercellodude I mostly just want to see a bunch of cool battledroid concepts the CIS would have made if they had the resources of the Empire since they were pretty limited by costs. Like all their deadliest droids were expensive especially the ones who could give jedi a run for their credits
Both the Confederacy and the Republic were both good and evil, as war tends to blend both sides of any conflict into either monsters or heroes depending as on how any of their citizens view them.
Very true. To the people of Ryloth or the Kudavo people the Jedi and Clones, and therefore the Republic, were the heroes because they saved them and their planet from slavery from the Separatists who were the villains to them.
But say to New Plympto the Separatists were the good guys buying their goods so their people could eat and survive.
History is also written by the victors
Evil is everywhere but there are heroes on both sides
what happened to the separatists worlds after the clone wars did they fall under control of the empire.
@@Controle9165 yhh but some fought back against the empire in the early yrs and became separatist holdouts that scattered across the outer rim
Grievous: smashes the heads off his own battle droids
Crosshair: Executes his own troopers
Vader: Choked his own officers
I think there’s a pattern here… just can’t figure it out 🤔
Machine men.
Mas Amedda: Sir, I normally follow you're plans blindly, but I feel I should point out that if you keep putting people in charge who keep killing our own troops we're going to run out of grunts, and then you'll have to do all the dirty work yourself.
Palpatine: Dammit you're right. Time for Plan B, start the Dark Trooper project, when enough time has passed and people forget their hatred of Droids we can replace everyone with Droids. It doesn't matter how many of them we kill because we can just build more.
Mas Amedda: So first you use Droids to oppress people, then you let the Clones let over when we first become an Empire, then you recruit regular people to cause to do the oppression, and now you're planning to replace them with better Droids. Sir, wouldn't it have just been easier to use Droids from the very start to finish.
Palpatine: Yeah, maybe. But starting a war and all that bloodshed was a lot of fun.
@@michaelandreipalon359 WITH MACHINE MINDS AND MACHINE HEARTS!
Perhaps Lucas, associated writers, and Disney wanted to import some edgy grimdarkness from Warhammer 40k's Commissars. The Imperium there is a galactic level clerical-fascist state with multiple military, commercial, and religious factions bundled up inside it.
Come again, Dogeius?
I realize back in Legends there were relatively stable Sith Empires. But with the Galactic Empire that Sidious built lasting around 20 years, is there something about the Sith ideology (perhaps from Bane, or from the Empire's ideology specifically) that makes it a poor fit for a civilization that spans at least half of the galaxy?
Bane's idea was if you have to many sith in one place you end up with self destructive infighting.
However this infighting was a strength to an extent since it meant one had to adapt or die quick or be eaten by other sith.
With the rule of two however there was no competition just the apprentice slowly growing in power until they kill there master.
so the sith empires in legends usually fell due to failures in ideology but Sidious's empire was slightly different. his empire was actually super stable so long as he was alive. problem was he designed it to crumble without him in an effort to prevent the kind of power grabs that plagued the old sith empires and punish any one who would attempt one anyway. this combined with his arrogance in thinking vader would never betray him is what lead to his death and the death of his empire. had palps been more wary of vader its likely his empire would have never fallen so long as he never died
To add to what An Ian said Palpatine's plan worked far to well. The Sith thrived on conflict and the stable Empires in Legends always had the Republic and the Jedi to counter balance them. Unfortunately the Sith ideology as a whole requires that counterbalance.
between
Play KOTOR 1 and SW TOR. The answer will become obvious.
The "Sith" Empire of Revan was nothing more then the dissilussioned and bigoted members of the Republic military, society and Jedi larping as Sith in an attempt to get back at the Jedi and Republic that failed them. Like if the Confederate States of America had called themselves Britain or something. Their only loyalty was to Revan, Malak, and their own hatred. And to quote Kreia: To be united by hatred is a fragile alliance at best
While the Rule of Two Sith were a cult that hated their society and sought ever to corrupt it. The Sith grand plan wasn't to build up the Republic, but to break it down enough so they could take it over. They cared only for power and revenge.
But the True Sith we see in the comics and SW TOR were something else entirely. They were a civilization. Like the Persians or Romans. With culture and history. The Sith fought for their power, yes, but also the Empire and the ideals they believed in. Naga Sadow and Ludo Kressh quarelled over power, yes, but more importantly, for how they thought the Empire ought to be run. Naga Sadow wanted to expand and wage war. Ludo Kressh wanted to preserve the Empire as it was. Jadus, millenia later fought to take power, yes, but also to revolutionize the Sith Empire, to change his society to fit his vision. And Thanaton was willling to let himself be executed for the Empire's laws at a young age.
They were part of their societies, and wanted those societies to profit or to change, or to maintain, not just for selfish power, but because they believed in their cultures. And their cultures believed in them.
0:07 Don't forget Clone Wars 2003 where the creator of Samurai Jack made awesome fight scenes such as General Grievous vs several Jedi within the ruins of a Republic ship for example.
It's the beauty of the Prequels. We root against the "Rebels", because the Rebels are led by some monsters, while their grievances are completely legit. We root for the Empire in the Prequels, because it is not yet an outwardly fascist state. It still has that nice sheen of "They're the good guys, because the Jedi are nice and Rex, Padmé and some Clones are morally good." that eventually falls off, when the Empire is truly formed. Really goes to show how we, as an audience, can be swayed to root for one group and despise the other group, just based on the figureheads of the fight. The Separatists had legit reasons to want their independence, while the Republic was pretty oppressive. The Clone Wars show even shows us so often how our heroes arrive at some neutral planet and they leave it war-torn.
Grievous was goaded into service with the seps, I feel bad for him... being enslaved then leading his planet to freedom and waging a successful counter campaign against the invading race only for the Jedi to take the others side, after dooku sabotaged his transport he wiped the memories of grievous and basically made him a sith pawn, I believe his life was a true tragedy
The way I see it is that the council, their underlings, the corporates, and the higher ups in the military were even, the common separatists were good and just wanted freedom. Atleast most were, there would be bad examples of the common separatists.
the corporates wanted freedom to exploit planets and basically enslave them (and not pay taxes), the council were said leaders of those corporations, their underlings knew the shit their bosses were doing (invading neutral worlds, political assassinations, use of civilians as human shields, supporting slave empires, and other shit) and cared shit about it and the separatist senate was useless and clueless. the only ones that could be said were fighting for freedom were the planetary governments (and even then its a big case of "it depends") but well, when every organization and position that matters is contgrolled by the assholes, you get absorbed into that and thrown into irrelevancy.
@@doorcf This , funny when people talk about separatist is not tht bad but toss aside this statement , its the very thing they desire and wht palpy promised them
I always argue that the Republic army was more moral than the Separatist army, but to be fair that is more due to Jedi leadership. Without the Jedi, the clone troopers would at the end of the war still be the same as they were at the start with fewer exceptions. If the Jedi led the Separatist forces, they probably would humanize the battle droids like they did with the clones. Both Republic and Separatist armies were filled with officers who always wanted to win a battle in pretty terrible ways without caring for civilian casualties. The Separatist officers were allowed by Dooku and the Separatist Council to run rampant while the Republic officers were kept on a leash by the Jedi Order. So when the latter officers became Imperials and the Jedi Order was wiped out, they probably were happy to now have permission to no longer hold back. They probably adopted and improved Separatist tactics that they respected and always wanted to try seeing them as more effective in military operations.
heavy disagree, i would argue of the constituancy of each army, that the republic is founded on immoral slavery of clones (they are literal chattle slaves and werent even citizens of the republic, they were property.) And the jedi you see in the show were the literal best ones, obi wan, anakin, ahsoka, plo koon, yoda, di. The CLEAR majority of jedi treated clone soldiers as pong krell did and just followed the cookie cutter tactics that the kaminoans handed them. Take a look at the behaviour of an average soldier in the 212th vs the 501st. and the 212th and the coruscant guard.
The CIS on the other hand is literally as moral as an army can reasonably get. Next to zero desertions, COMPLETE accountability to their commanding officers, their entire navy with the exception of a few of the admiralty were all droids, with FEW exception the only lives lost on the battlefield were a couple seperatist officers and nothing but droids. Food wasnt needed to be diverted from worlds to feed a massive army of organics. You can critique its officers all day and night, and i will agree with you, though its worth noting too that the only organic officers we saw in TCW were either seperatist councilmen or handpicks from among their companies, grievous, ventress, trench and literally dooku. Of the super tactical droids (like based gigachad kalani) we got to see almost all of them were getting their tactics made crueller by direct command from dooku. Of the regular tactical droids they were recognized as many times irresponsible or incompetant and phased out.
Worth noting that the super tactical droids when acting on their own did almost nothing wrong. Kalani in rebels though the war was still on and treated jedi and clone soldiers as enemies of the state and kept his word on not excecuting his prisoners AND accepted the empire as the bad guy
Kalani (gigachad he is) on onderon made extremely sensible decisions and killed the king for being incompetant (considering his crimes its reasonable dookus order or not that he be killed), made accurate statements about the strength of the enemy, and used his units wisely and did not senselessly throw lives away.
The super tactical droid on yerbana was willing to accept surrender before the republic literally did a war crime and shot him after obiwan faked surrendering
the super tactical droid sending a ship full of rhydonium was hitting a legitimate target. The republic strategy conference, STUFFED FULL OF ENEMY OFFICERS, CAPITAL SHIPS, AND CLONES.
The super tactical droid that was defending the plan on a providence class for said bomb was acting in defense of his vessel, no wrongdoing.
@@themecha47 With all due respect, what you argue about the Jedi is prominent in Legends. Jedi in Canon on average seem far more moral. Though to be fair besides the main cast of Jedi, Canon shows, comics, and novels usually focus only on the Jedi Council and new Jedi Padawans. Same with clone trooper units. I would argue that technically neither of us can make a claim on Jedi-Clone relations in Canon because it hasn't been covered beyond the main cast. It's been laid out in Legends how the relationship is on average, but not in Canon. The only real difference that actually has been shown is that in Legends that it was Mandalorians and Anakin that influenced the clone troopers and inspired them to make a culture while in Canon this seems more attributed to the Jedi.
Now when it comes to the Separatists, technically it has all it needs to be a very immoral military. Ignoring the officers since both you and I acknowledge who Dooku chose and who made the army and navy for the Separatists in the first place, I have to bring up the fact that in today's world, people are concerned about AI weapons not distinguishing between civilians and combatants. They also don't question orders. But a counter one can say about Separatist battle droids is that they are shown to have personalities, to be free-thinking, and so on. If that's the case though it brings up something more concerning. If droids are sentient like how R2-D2 and C-P30 are and droids can suffer from prejudice and discrimination, that would make the Separatists just as guilty as the Republic with having an army created from birth to fight and die for them. Either way, it's just as morally concerning as how the Republic was with the clones. Either they came out just as bound to orders as they are in Legends that they never question immoral commands or in Canon they have more sentience and independence from one another, making them enslaved people. In fact, I feel I can say in Canon and Legends that without the Jedi, the Republic officers would do the types of things they do in the Empire and the clones wouldn't get a culture and be far more brutal than they were in the Clone Wars, probably even far more brutal than Jango Fett and Mandalorian mercenaries in this era. And even then in both Canon and Legends, the Jedi fell closer and closer to the Dark Side without any proper way to handle that.
Personally, I think Star Wars would of been a far more interesting setting if Palpatines plan worked too well and left the entire galaxy shattered and Balkanized. The Mandalorians revert to their warmongering ways, the Kaminoans establish an empire of their own built on the backs of clones, the Umbarans become a rising technological powerhouse, Sidious forms the Empire with the Republic core worlds, the Jedi survive Order 66 but are forced into a diaspora and hundreds of other of other species and worlds are left to fend for themselves. Though I wonder how a divided galaxy would fare against the Yuuzhan Vong.
Now I know a lot of Canon and not much of Legends, but I say things would become far worse. This version of the galaxy would be far more divided. At least in Legends the galaxy was divided by the New Republic and the Empire, both with powerful armies. In this case only Palpatine has a powerful army. The Mandalorians and Kaminoans would only have control over a limited amount of territory.
now THAT is a story I would love to see, and could've even been made possible in a post Galactic Civil War-era! Can you imagine if in current canon, after the Battle of Endor, instead of a lame New Republic forming to only last about 3 decades before being disintegrated by the First Order, the galaxy as a whole was like "nah thanks, we've already tried a Republic and an Empire - we didn't care for it" and splintered off into different interstellar factions out of mutual distrust and desire for actual independence and cultural/national identity? And the story was about Luke's new Jedi Order, years down the road, trying to keep a fragile galactic peace while braving political subterfuge, covert strike teams, and growing greed and ambitions of not-so-savvy individuals as these new factions basically play a galactic-scale version of Risk + Monopoly with each other?
The Yuuzhan Vong would steam roll the galaxy in this scenario unless they put aside there differences to form colation agsinst them basically the Yuzzhan Vong were attempting to play various factions of the galaxy against each other in the original timeline as well and it took the basically all the major powers working together to beat the Yuzzhan Vong
@@tristankawatsuma8962 yeah, not to mention that the kaminoans would immediately enact all kinds of euthenization programs while the mandos would pillage everything in their sight.
@@miniaturejayhawk8702 I kind of am doubtful about the territorial ambitions of these individual powers. Kaminoans have never had ambitions beyond their own planet. In Legends the only time they raise a clone army for themselves is to free themselves from Imperial rule. The Kaminoans are many things, but I don't think they're imperial. They just like to be left alone. Now since they are an Extragalactic planet that is outside the galaxy, maybe they decide to conquer any other worlds in between the Star Wars galaxy and the nearby Rishi Maze galaxy, but I honestly don't see the Kaminoans becoming conquerors. It just isn't in their nature. As for the Mandalorians, if they were under Maul, they would certainly expand their criminal empire at least until the Jedi intervened, but the Jedi would need an army to succeed. If this timeline happened after the Siege of Mandalore, then Bo-Katan would keep her people in check. While she is a warrior, she doesn't seem like someone who wants to expand militarily. There is a difference between bringing back a warrior culture and becoming an imperial warlord. These two groups while powerful lack the ambition to wield this power, so even in a time of chaos I doubt they would do anything serious. Now if you focused on other factions, then you would have results. The mega corporations on both sides of the war are going to take full advantage of this. The Separatist companies already have the droid army, so assuming they decide to keep working together instead of turning on one another, they can rule a giant portion of the galaxy. the Republic corporations don't have the advantage of giant militaries at their disposal, but they can convince planets to protect them in exchange for material and ships.
Shu Mai:W-We were promised A R-Reward! A H-H-Handsome reward !
Darth Vader:I am your reward ! Don't you find me handsome ?
I followed with the Separatist as a kid. I never knew why, but I had a strong soft spot for them. When I got older, I came to understand why. The people of the outer rim worlds that made up the Separatist just wanted equality, true representation, and protection from harm. Even though the Separatist were run by some evil people, those people offered them everything they didn't have in the Republic. It made me ask myself which side would I chose in this situation (and had no idea about how evil Dooku and the council were) I would join the Separatist.
Every Clone Wars Episode Ever:
Sympathetic Separatist: I and my people have legitimate grievances with the Republic! Help us, Count Dooku!
Count Dooku: I am sending you Badguy McEvil-Person, he will take charge of all military assets on your planet.
Ugly Shark/Spider Lookin MF: Count Dooku pays me in baby meat!
Sympathetic Separatist: *surprised Pikachu face, dies 3/4s of the way through the story arc*
Season 1 is exactly like that.
Trench was never being evil, he was just really goddamn good at completing his orders
I would disagree on Grievous I mean he had a literal reason to hate the republic even if they messed his memories up, his people were being exterminated when they finally rose up and dealt with those killing them the republic was paid off to punish the original victims
I would love a video based on the Czerka Corporation. Since they existed since KOTOR all the way to the Galactic Empire
In the end both the Republic and the Confederacy sucked because of Palpatine and the Sith, and everyone suffered because of it, as the opening crawl of RotS states; There are heroes on both sides. Evil is everywhere.
*kamino gets bombarded and destroyed by Venators
Clones: We lost our home
The separatists: carma is a bitch
The separatist used to be part of the Republic Padma was friends with a lot of them
I argue that without the Sith and mega corporations, things would fall apart quickly. These planets were poor and thus has poorly funded defense forces. Pirates and criminals would attack twice as much now that there isn’t even a minuscule of a chance the Republic and Jedi would get involved. Granted now that they have complete control of themselves they can find their own ways to boost their economy, but I doubt this will save them from being exploited. They still have to make deals with corporations who basically ran the Outer Rim or the Hutts who controlled a whole bunch of space. I argue the reasons the Separatists would leave rhe Republic are also the reason it would fail, even if the Republic never went to war. Look what usually happened to the Rebels in Legends and Canon without a common enemy. They usually fractured in their New Republic either being too weak to fight or succumbing to tyranny. Yes, the Separatists have a lot of idealists just like the Rebels, but they would also have their snakes just like the Rebels and not all of the snakes in the CIS were in the Separatist Council or the megacorporations. Building a government is pretty damn hard, especially if you don’t have proper backing.
Poor assumptions.
Canoncially the Republic did nothing to protect the outer rim. What made the rim mad was they were exploited and poor but had to also have fairly large militaries (expensive) to defend themselves.
If they left the Republic all they would loose is the core world exploration.
Also they already had governments. They don't any governments outside of their planets.
You are just an imperialist trying to justify imperialism and exploitation with the moronic and historically wrong assumption that colonies can't survive on their own.
@@matthiuskoenig3378 Okay, I'll admit that many Imperials in real life and a ton in Star Wars usually used this argument to justify all of their actions. However, we also have to remember that in Star Wars, criminals and corporations have a lot more power than they do in real life. The Hutt Clan is a primary example of this. They control a whole piece of territory called Hutt Space with an army of criminals and mercenaries. They are so large and significant that both the Republic and the Separatists, far larger than Hutt Space, actually entered negotiations with them. In the modern age for us, criminals and corporations do most of the shady and immoral stuff behind the scenes. In the Star Wars galaxy they act far more openly. This is of course due to Republic negligence that not only ignored the Outer Rim, but left its protection to the Megacorporations and who only realized things had gone too far by the time of the Invasion of Naboo, at least decades or at most a few centuries after they gave the corporations permission to have armies and navies and gave them seats in the Senate. And of course the Separatists aren't starting from scratch. They still have planetary governments that existed long before they joined the Republic. Now according at least to Canon works, the Separatists promised a smaller and more centralized government that wasn't bogged down by bureaucracy and corruption, but also made the CIS more decentralized than the Republic to the point that they were so laissez-faire that many Republic protections for workers like anti-slavery laws fell apart, though its pretty much known that the Republic didn't really establish law and order across the outer regions of the Republic. A nuanced perspective of the CIS probably would show a centralized military more stronger than the Republic's Judicical Forces. The government would be smaller and more effective. However there comes the questions of what authority and powers they have given the decentralized nature of the CIS. It would seem on the most part that the government and the military would seem to mostly deal with foreign threats like the Republic and the Hutts while the planets handle internal affairs like trade issues. However as we see with the New Republic, the loss of a common enemy can lead to allies turning on one another. Even without the Sith and the megacorporations, no one Separatist planet had the same reason to secede from the Republic. And no one Separatist government was the same. Some were democracies, others were dictatorships, and so on. Clearly an issue is going to break out between the idealists who want the dictatorships to end while the many Separatists may also just ignore this as they have to focus on making a government and finally dealing with the threats of pirates and crime gangs. It would likely be a nonviolent power struggle between the pro-democracy and pro-dictatorship Separatists. Of course there would still be more pressure on these dictatorships to be dealt with since the Republic ignored the Outer Rim and in the CIS these dictatorships are going to make up a larger portion of the government, catching the attention of the citizens. So I suppose to be fair, the CIS system does have a potential to actually work without the Sith and the megacorporations so long as the right people come out on top like the Separatist senators we saw throughout the Clone Wars tv show. Still, we have to remember that the common reason the CIS worlds did leave the Republic is that they suffered from minimal at best and nonexistent at worst attention and representation. No central military to defend them, taxes being paid to the government in exchange for nothing, and no development led by the Republic of their worlds while they were under attack by pirates, gangs, and megacorporations. Beyond that they were very different. I would see the Separatists without the corporations and Dooku going down one of two routes. The first route involves the Republic using grey-zone tactics instead of forming an army to cause trouble for the CIS. They likely will try to take advantage of the dictatorships in the CIS by funding the rebels to cause trouble not just on the dictator worlds, but the rest of the CIS for being complicit, despite the fact that the Republic also ignored these dictators. The Separatists can then fight these rebels since they are backed by the Republic and using terror tactics, presuming these rebels aren't led by Jedi. The other route instead involves the Separatists dealing with these dictator members before the Republic tries to take advantage of it. The dictators then probably would accuse the CIS of being hypocritical for getting involved. It would become divided between those who are against the dictators and those that don't trust any form of central government. To put it simply, the CIS has a number of ways it can turn out. The Republic became what it was over centuries of war, peace, and democracy. The Separatists were formed in the span of two years before the Clone Wars. This hurried alliance of planets would certainly lead to internal tension. Of course an easy way around this would be for a peaceful creation of two seperate states and given the Separatists are mostly filled with poor planets, this would be a preferrable option to either a civil war or a series of political assasinations and sabotage of groups. Still, it can basically be argued that even without the Jedi, the Republic, the Sith, and the Megacorporations, there is a damn good chance the Separatists can fail and fall apart. If nto for economic reasons, then certainly for political reasons.
@@tristankawatsuma8962 the Huttt territory is called the Mafia in our world, with its own laws and institutions. it's like poetry it rhymes
@@valentinlageot4101 Do they have their own nation or city? I mean, the Hutts are on a whole different level than other crime gangs in the galaxy.
The Seperatists' military officials where all pretty much evil, but their politicians where actually surprisingly decent. I remember how most of them voting in favor of peace with the Republic in that one episode, for example.
0:25 TK-??? doing the Timmy Turner's Dad's Dinkelberg expression impression: "DAVE FILONI!"
I hope one day we can get an animated series similar to the Clone Wars but from the CIS pov!
When I used to be a dedicated fan of Star Wars, I unironically saw the Confederacy as the real good guys with dubious leadership. The problem is that CIS war crimes are shown in the way that makes you feel like "OMG, they're so evil!" while Republic war crimes are shown in the light which makes you think "Cool, these muuns and geonosians deserved genocide, so cool! Flamethrowers are such a humane weapon, kill the bugs!". But they're war crimes too, and they're acts of genocide.
I gotta say the Sepratists at least the council had good intentions it's just how the Sith and the military went about putting them into place that made it evil.
The CIS were literally just the Rebel Alliance, but instead of heroes being at the forefront, what they got were villians. Resulting in the galaxy hating seperatist, which said hate would transfer over to the Rebellion. All part of Palpatine's plan.
@@subcommanderxelios800 not quite, the rebel allegiance wanted to restore the republic, the confederacy wanted to protect themselves from the repercussions of declaring independence.
Yes, both sides are rebels, but still opposite ideologies.
As we seen in rogue one with Saw Guerrera, not every rebellion figth for the same cause or with the same methods.
@@Ivan_Berni Well, some separatist did join the Rebellion. Not to mention that both the Confederacy and the Rebellion despise tyranny. So still, same cause, but different goals.
@@subcommanderxelios800 the confederacy was tyrannical in their systems, they didn't wanted the republic to control them, the republic IS the good side, always has been, it was never tyrannical before Sheev, they literally invaded a planet and overthrow a peaceful government because they didn't liked taxes, and thats just the commerce guild, the other confederates did worse things.
@@Ivan_Berni Never tyrannical? Mabye from first glance, yes but the outer rim systems were heavily subjected to exploitation, neglect and even racism by the Republic. In other words, the Republic never really cared for the outer rim planets and from the point of view from the CIS, if an organization continues to do the things I just mentioned, there is no point in staying. You don't stay on a sinking ship.
I still say, if I was a Jedi during the Clone Wars, I would have joined the CIS...
The CIS? Led by a Sith Lord with a military helmed by a Jedi-Slayer. Are you sure?
In regards to just the Separatist government, most of them actually were just simply trying to obtain a more fair & balanced life outside of the Republic’s overwhelming moral corruption and lack of overall compassion towards the smaller systems. However, because Dooku willingly chose the worst & most selfish corporate figures to be part of the Leadership Council (under Sidious’s instructions), the cause was doomed to fail as a result, becoming no better than what the Republic was at this point (even before it became the Empire, as planned by the Sith).
Sad to show that even the most noble of causes can end up breaking down into a twisted husk of itself if the wrong people end up in positions of power.
Geetsly’s: THE SEPARATISTS WERE GOOD
Me: But they were against the clones… so… IRRELEVANT
Most Clones are always going to be heroes to me, with a few exceptions: Neyo, Faie, and so on, so anyone who's against the Nobel and great Clones I love and support is my enemy.
@@zexalbrony4799 touch grass
Noooooooo
@@zexalbrony4799 it’s not that deep bruh
@@zexalbrony4799 they were made heroes by the dear Emperor, if it wasn't for the Senate adopting freedom-ending full power to the chancellor this army and clones would never had to be heroes.
The clones are virtual heroes in a virtual war that is irrelevant from it's very start. the war is just a decoy master Yoda thought that it was the clone war had begun and it was this that he couldn't have foresaw in his vision but quite the contrary the clone wars was a trick of Palpatine so that the Great Master Yoda and the other Jedis/generas could not attend on matter of the force.
he distracted them baited them onto an ennemy that was just a creation of the Sith.
1:48 *"Murderer? Is it murder to rid the galaxy of Jedi filth?"*
In the first episodes the CSI was the CSI of the movies: a government ruled by greedy individuals, involved with galaxy corporations etc... After the third season things are changed with character like Bonteri
Mostly just the Sep council, dooku and grievous deserved it. The parliament weren’t bad people.
Grievous I kinda disagree with, while he did do all that fucked-up shit during the Clone Wars, his mind was tampered and altered with against his wishes by the CIS and the Sith, fucked up shit aside he fits more with the Parliament than the CIS council as he and his people like the parliament genuine reasons for opposing the Republic and Jedi after both of them screwed the Kaleesh in the decades before and after Grievous was born, and was essentially their De Facto leader, he and his people wanted to be left alone on their homeworld to their devices, only for the Huk, Republic, and Jedi to screw them over left and right.
Okay, as much as I am pro-clone troopers and thus like seeing them take down droids, it seems a little too far to call Canon Count Dooku xenophobic. Legends Dooku as revealed in the novelization of Revenge of the Sith is of course xenophobic and according to Canon Dooku did want some type of Sith Empire, but given his hesitancy to betray Ventress I question if we can call him a racist. Yes, his homeworld is full of humans, but even though I see Dooku as a Star Wars version of Megatron who went from revolutionary to tyrant, I just can’t think of Dooku as being anti-alien, at least not to the extent of Palpatine and the Galactic Empire. Not saying he isn’t a tyrannical Sith Lord, just saying there is a difference between him in Canon and Legends, like how it is with clone troopers.
Is just hard to think someone that was a Jedi is a racist, i mean, we seen him around aliens every time, in geonosis, in the confederate council, with his apprentices, with grievous, he seems to be above those things.
As someone who hates paying taxes and dealing with government beuaracracy, I am sympathetic to the CIS. As far as a lot of worlds are concerned, there's not much difference between the Republic and the Empire.
I honestly believe everyone is wrong about General Grievous. Not in the idea that he was ruthless and a murderer, but that he was genuinely evil. I don't think he truly was, atleast not without the tampering of the sith, cis, and jedi. They all played a hand in making Grievous the monstrous mass murderer he was. He was genuinely tricked into being a master of death, and I think that people should take that into consideration. Dooku, Palpatine, and the cis made him. The jedi were his main targets due to the failures of theirs as well as the lies of the dark side. I'm not saying Grievous was a good guy, because he for sure wasn't (although I find him to be a badass if you forget abt canon). What I am saying, is that his hatred wasn't exactly evil to me. Keep in mind, he gave himself and his life up as a slave to the banking clan for the safety of his species. Victimized and used as a weapon his whole life, I genuinely think that greivous could've just as easily been a great jedi had they helped his species instead of the Yam'rii. Thanks for reading!!! :D
While you can say the Republic became more tyrannical during the Clone Wars, I would say the Separatists were at least more corrupt than pre-Clone Wars Republic. Even though the megacorporations had a lot of power granted to them by the Republic Senate, this power was still limited to the outer regions of the Republic. By the time of the Invasion of Naboo, senators were finally realizing how out of control things were. If it wasn’t for Palpatine, the Senate would have moved to heavily limit the megacorporations due to the negative opinion of them after they pulled off an illegal military operation on Naboo. If anything it may be argued that the senators of the Republic were more scared of the Separatist Council than the rest of the CIS. Yes, a mass secession by Outer Rim, Expansion Region, Mid Rim and other worlds would damage the reputation of the Republic, hence the debate over the Military Creation Act. However senators were still on the fence of breaking 1,000 years of tradition of a demilitarized Republic. It took the discovery of the megacorporations siding with the CIS and forming a massive army for them to agree to pass the bill. Palpatine needed a threat and the Separatists on their own, even if they were filled with long enemies of the Republic like the Zygerrians and Mandalorians didn’t really warrant massive retaliation. I admit the Republic would probably try grey-zone operations against the Separatists with the Jedi Order, the Judicial Forces, and the Planetary Defense Forces like China with Taiwan, war was still something planets were hesitant to try. But when the megacorporations form a massive army and join the CIS, the same megacorporations who basically had their own little kingdoms in the Outer Rim and who had invaded and occupied an entire planet just ten years ago, fear spiked up. It took what could be seen as a legitimate threat to the Republic for them to hand power over to Palpatine. It basically is what he did for the entire war. Without the Separatists, either the megacorporations are finally stopped by the Senate or things return back to before the Invasion of Naboo. So technically the Separatists kind of lost the argument on corruption as soon as the Separatist Council was formed. Now of course the Republic still isn’t pure on the corruption side. Look at how Kamino became a member in such a short time while other worlds even closer to the Core than the planet outside the galaxy that few knew of had to wait years. Still, it is kind of a sad irony. While the Republic became interested in tying a leash on the megacorporations they were leaving slack for years, the Separatists who hated those corporations in the first place had to work with them. Even if the Separatists were justified, they had the worst timing. We all know Palpatine was about to leave office due to term limits when the Separatist Crisis happened. It’s quite possible that a newly elected chancellor such as the popular Bail Organa would have revived efforts to limit the powers of the corporations and address corruption in the Senate. Instead Palpatine is allowed to stay in office for five more years before he becomes emperor. Of course the Separatists couldn’t have known that if they rose up they would be playing right into the hands of Palpatine, but still. Of course if the tried this before the Invasion of Naboo, the Republic would just leave the megacorporations to handle it which they would, harshly. Still, damn terrible timing, even if it was planned by the Sith. And on top of everything, they basically gave the megacorporations more power than even the Republic did. Again, the megacorporations in terms of operations were limited in where they could run wild. In the CIS, they and the official army of the Separatists had full run of the whole region. Yes, it was basically the same sectors they worked in with a few exceptions, but not only did they have permission from the government to operate, but they even were the government. Not just senators and paying off elected officials, but actually the heads of defense and military operations. The Separatists Senate at least limited the role the corporations had inside of them, as can be seen with how the Corporate Alliance and the War Faction are outnumbered by the Peace and Independence Factions, but it’s kind of pointless since they entrust the Separatist Council to defending them and trust Dooku to keep them on a leash despite the fact he is a literal count of a powerful and rich house on his homeworld. Again, the Republic fell to fear and tyranny as corporations were nationalized and the executive branch had more power than anybody else in the government and as soon as the Empire was born, military governors and moffs like Tarkin and Rampart had more power than senators over planets and sectors. However the Separatists in my mind lost the corruption argument as they did the opposite of what people in the Republic wanted to do, the opposite of what people on Separatist worlds wanted to do. In a way, I view the Separatists like the Decepticons in the first IDW Continuity that ended a few years ago. From people with legitimate grievances to becoming worse than their enemy, at least until their enemy became an empire as soon as the war ended. I also view Dooku to be like Megatron in that Transformers universe. They both saw issue with the old system and even tried working with friends to make changes. Dooku with his friends in the Jedi Order as well as the people of Serenno after he left the Jedi and the Republic and Megatron with miners, workers, and the oppressed classes who became the Decepticons. However both become corrupted as they realize peaceful change is slow. They give in to fighting, however given their backgrounds of believing in power and force, this further drives them down the wrong path until they decide tyranny is better than corruption and democracy. Of course in real life, not every revolution ends with real changes. One leader is simply replaced by another. While I believe Dooku’s Empire would be better than Palpatine’s, it would still be as bad as Sith Empires usually are. Look at how the Fey Empire which is the only empire to not delve in the dark side in Legends lasts so long.
Lmao, the Republic was corrupt for more reasons than just the mega corperations.
You have millions of worlds being represented by a couple hundred people. The Republic was a corrupt empire, pretending to be a democracy.
The separatists were in dependant planets loosely affiliated for the purpose of fighting the war. The existence of the counsel doesn't matter for cis corruption becuase they had no power over civilian affairs. Only military.
Meanwhile in the Republic you had corrupt politicians Andega corperations haveing a say in both military and civilian affairs. Aswell as a signifcnaly more centralised (and thus inhernelty more corrupt) state.
There were many planets with legitimate reasons to want to leave the Republic, but you must also take into account the actions they take and what the consequences can be for them leaving. Jaibiim had good reasons to want to leave, but their leadership were jerks who killed the innocent people on their own planet who didn't agree and wanted to stay in the Republic, that is wrong, which puts them somewhere in the middle of good and evil. Then we have Umbara, you can argue they had a good reason to join the CIS, but their leaving puts the Wookies and many other nearby Republic worlds in danger because now the Separatists have them boxed in and can cut off trade to them and kill them, the actions of the Umbaran's put my friends the Wookies in danger so I still think the invasion of their planet is completely justified. Then you have planets like New Plympto they have legit reasons to leave and their not hurting anyone with their actions or contributions, but the Republic invades their planet anyways, in that light the New Plympto people are on the good side of things.
The one thing The Clone Wars taught us is that war is complicated and there can be heroes on both sides, as well as villains on both sides, and the sides someone chooses will depend on their own views and what they see, despite being able to understand the plights of many Separatists, I am still loyal to the Republic because of good people in it like Obi-Wan, Anakin, Ahsoka, Plo Koon, Rex, Fives, The Bad Batch(minus Crosshair right now), Jesse, Hardcase, Hhevy, 99, Cody, Waxxer, Boil, Wolffee, Padme, Bail, Mon Mothma, Chu Chi, Tills, Ackbar, and so on. I stay because of my loyalty to them.
Which is an interesting analysis. Personally the moral lines between the Republic and CIS were always gray. The best way I could sum it up would be this. The Republic was fighting the war right for the wrong reasons while the CIS were fighting the war wrong for the right reasons.
However, the thing is while the CIS did conduct acts of cruelty, I would not argue there wasn't good reasoning behind it, given the complacency and in some cases imposing of death, economic strangulation, and exploitation the Republic did. To be clear, this does not excuse the actions. But I don't think it is as simple as they were committing acts of evil for the sake of it. To many of them, what they were doing to the Republic was simply the same acts the Republic imposed on many of its individual worlds. Take Grievous for example on why he hated the Republic in the first place. He hated it because the corruption in the senate caused the Republic and Jedi to side with the very same group of people that were trying to enslave the Kaleesh. And that is where the issue laid, the Republic in a sense did not care about a world unless it provided some kind of strategic interest to them. Jabiim is a very good example of that. Or you take Umbara which left based on the corruption the Republic was enacting during the war, and arguably simply wanted to be left alone.
While I can agree that the Republic did have good people, I would argue that many of them were complacent or part of the injustice problem. Anakin in spite of his good and caring nature was still a closeted fascist. The rest of the Jedi were complacent within the injustice the Republic were doing without attempting any kind of reform or at the very least not bend to their whim in order to help others. And while the clones were in a sense honorable soldiers, they did not hold much activism within understanding the Republic's faults. Both because of the (Inhibitor chip in canon and their conditioning in Legends) but also because the clones in spite of their great sense of duty were rather ignorant to why the war was being fought and saw it in a very black and white manner throughout most of it. As much as I hold sympathy for those characters and never believed the Republic was beyond fixing, to me it was at best questionable that the Republic as a whole felt it could not share the galaxy with another galactic power in co existence. Something most CIS members were ok with doing.
For that reason, it is hard for me to decide which side I would of ended up on without the benefit on hindsight from the Sith grand plan.
@@kingorange7739 Ah, King Orange, my old friend/Star War debating rival. It's good to see you.
Although, this time won't be much of a debate because I agree with a lot of you're points and their very good ones.
I also think you summed it up best about the way and reasons the Republic and CIS fought. And it actually can relate back to Geetsly ending statement about the CIS in a way. The Republic had the wrong reasons to fight wanting to force the leaving planets back into the Republic, but the way they fought the war was the right way for the most part. True there were some evil men leading the Republic forces or just jerks who would do anything to win, which included some Jedi outside of just the ones that fell to The Dark Side during the war, but there were just as many good-natured and kind Jedi, as well as a few good Clones and Republic officers all in pretty high positions during the war, which allowed many of them to order their specific battles to be done as clean as they could be and save as many lives as possible. While most of the CIS had legitimate and right reasons for wanting to fight the war breaking away from a Republic that had many times neglected and wronged them, but they fought the war the wrong way. Of course, it didn't help that most of the high-ranking CIS leaders were evil or greedy people thus many times they would be overly cruel and bloodthirsty on the battle field, which of course was Palpatine's and Dooku's plan to make these evil CIS members have the most power and become the face of the CIS so the people of the Republic would blindly assume all CIS members or anyone else who rebels is just as bad and that the Republic later the Empire must take control of them for there to be peace and safety. Both sides did horrible things during the war and both had both good and bad people apart of them, with the good people trying to temper the bad ones when they could, but many of the good people in the Republic had a high enough position in the GAR to actually use it to at least lighten the bloodshed, whereas most of the CIS's good people had very little power as most of it went to the bad people so almost all of the CIS battle tactics were much worse and cruel. So I think the good people in the Republic were able to temper the bad ones a bit better than the CIS good people could do for their bad ones.
However, one point I would argue with is the CIS having good reasons to be cruel. Sure many of them had suffered under the Republic, but that doesn't mean they should do the same things back to the Republic, because then that makes them no better than the Republic. Ironically enough, just yesterday I was rewatching Geetsly's video on why the Bad Batch kept setting their blasters to stun and it can relate to this since his idea was they were choosing to be better by choosing not to kill, we all have a choice to be better and the CIS could have chosen to be better and not do the same horrible things to the Republic that the Republic had previously done to them, but they didn't. Again, after everything that the Republic had done to many of them they had good reasons to want to fight back for their freedom, but again they didn't have to be that cruel they could have fought back in a better way and chosen to be better.
Of course, all these interesting ideas and analyses you propose all just again proves one of the overall messages the Clone Wars taught us, and one of the most important ones, that war is complicated. And also reaffirms why this series is a great subject for analysis and friendly debate.
@@zexalbrony4799 "Ah, King Orange, my old friend/Star War debating rival. It's good to see you." - Likewise my friend. Having discussions with you is perhaps one of my highlights in partaking in the Star Wars community.
"Although, this time won't be much of a debate because I agree with a lot of you're points and their very good ones." - Thanks. I am interesting into reading more into yours.
"I also think you summed it up best about the way and reasons the Republic and CIS fought. And it actually can relate back to Geetsly ending statement about the CIS in a way. The Republic had the wrong reasons to fight wanting to force the leaving planets back into the Republic, but the way they fought the war was the right way for the most part. True there were some evil men leading the Republic forces or just jerks who would do anything to win, which included some Jedi outside of just the ones that fell to The Dark Side during the war, but there were just as many good-natured and kind Jedi, as well as a few good Clones and Republic officers all in pretty high positions during the war, which allowed many of them to order their specific battles to be done as clean as they could be and save as many lives as possible." - Which does hold good points. The Republic did conduct themselves fairly well within the war, especially within the earlier years. Only exception would be false surrenders. Which is a testament to their ability to adapt considering how unprepared they were for a war to happen.. I would argue that their occupation treatments plus contingencies such as Order 37 and Base Delta Zero did cause the Republic to conduct the war far more aggressively by the late war point. Much of this was of course due to the fact that Palpatine was gaining more power and the Republic war getting ever closer to the Empire, but I would also claim that much of that sentiment came from the senate's complacency due to war fatigue.
"While most of the CIS had legitimate and right reasons for wanting to fight the war breaking away from a Republic that had many times neglected and wronged them, but they fought the war the wrong way. Of course, it didn't help that most of the high-ranking CIS leaders were evil or greedy people thus many times they would be overly cruel and bloodthirsty on the battle field, which of course was Palpatine's and Dooku's plan to make these evil CIS members have the most power and become the face of the CIS so the people of the Republic would blindly assume all CIS members or anyone else who rebels is just as bad and that the Republic later the Empire must take control of them for there to be peace and safety." - Which is very much true, and it often makes you wonder to what extent the CIS may had conducted the war differently had the Sith not interfered or if Dooku was fighting to actually win the war. While I will agree many CIS commanders were cruel, I do still believe there were a decent amount of honorable CIS commanders such as Loathsome, Mar Tuk, Ser’verance Tann, and Mandalore the Resurector aka Spar.
“Both sides did horrible things during the war and both had both good and bad people apart of them, with the good people trying to temper the bad ones when they could, but many of the good people in the Republic had a high enough position in the GAR to actually use it to at least lighten the bloodshed, whereas most of the CIS's good people had very little power as most of it went to the bad people so almost all of the CIS battle tactics were much worse and cruel. So I think the good people in the Republic were able to temper the bad ones a bit better than the CIS good people could do for their bad ones.” - Maybe in the context of on the battlefield, but there were many moral dilemmas the Republic was willing to overlook for the sake of winning the war. A good example would be the use of the clones. Not only were they not given the option to opt out of fighting, but they were not even regarded politically as human beings with rights but rather property. As such, one critique the CIS was right about was that the Republic was basically using a slave army with little to no plan on what do even do with the clones in the post war.
“However, one point I would argue with is the CIS having good reasons to be cruel. Sure many of them had suffered under the Republic, but that doesn't mean they should do the same things back to the Republic, because then that makes them no better than the Republic.” - Which is agreeable. At no point would I condone the CIS actions. No matter which way you slice it too wrongs don’t make a right. I am only explaining the mindset many CIS members had and that it was somewhat hypocritical of the Republic to callout the CIS cruelty when much of it were things the Republic did at one point also do.
“Ironically enough, just yesterday I was rewatching Geetsly's video on why the Bad Batch kept setting their blasters to stun and it can relate to this since his idea was they were choosing to be better by choosing not to kill, we all have a choice to be better and the CIS could have chosen to be better and not do the same horrible things to the Republic that the Republic had previously done to them, but they didn't.” - Which is true. And unfortunately for the CIS, that was the biggest things that made the war gray. Had the CIS conducted the war in a similar manner to the Republic, there would be little doubt which side would be in the right. But the big problem with the way the CIS was created and ultametely fell was that it strayed much from its original intentions.
“Again, after everything that the Republic had done to many of them they had good reasons to want to fight back for their freedom, but again they didn't have to be that cruel they could have fought back in a better way and chosen to be better.
Of course, all these interesting ideas and analyses you propose all just again proves one of the overall messages the Clone Wars taught us, and one of the most important ones, that war is complicated. And also reaffirms why this series is a great subject for analysis and friendly debate.” - Which is very much true, and it is as geestlys said. The CIS would likely not had been organized the way it did if it was not for Dooku. And it leads to the questioning of what a post war CIS would potentially look like. Pro Republic fans often see it as a stereotypical good vs evil with the Republic being a shining beaken and the CIS being an evil sith puppet. The CIS fans viewing it as a Authoritarian Republic vs Libertarian CIS. Personally I reject both of these concepts. To me, taking the Sith plan out of the equation for a moment. I would argue that the war between the Republic and CIS were two competting concepts of galactic nationhood. The Republic was very much based on the notion that everyone was part of it, the parts of the whole. As such I would almost theorize that was some of the rationale of the poor treatment of outer rim worlds. It was based on the idea of “Hey we are all on the same team, so you shouldn’t care that we need resources for the Republic as a whole.” The CIS on the otherhand believed that the concept of nationhood was very conditional on the sums of its parts, rather than subscribing to one ideology or way of life. The CIS instead view themselves more as a collective that is working for mutual gain. The problem with this line of thinking though is it makes it easy to turn a blind eye to evils committed based on the idea of “It is on their world, so it is their problem.” This is where the CIS council likely would of became extremely powerful, as they would be able to do some sketchy things behind the parliament’s back without interference since they do control the CIS military. The key concept is almost how it is framed. The Republic IS a galactic power. The CIS ARE a galactic power.
I would like to hear more of your thoughts, but this is my perspective.
@@kingorange7739 "I would like to hear more of your thoughts, but this is my perspective." - Well, without the Sith Grand Plan the Clones wouldn't have been created, but if the corporate powers still allied with the CIS then most likely the war would have been a lot shorter with how much more manpower the CIS would have and the Republic would either be forced to surrender or be forced to try and co-exist with the CIS, depending on how much power the Separatist Council and Separatist Parliament had over each other.
Of course, I'm more interested in what the outcome of the war would have been if Palpatine was stopped before Order 66, like what if the Jedi believed Fives or at least put the pieces together after discovering Dooku was Tyranus, or like Geetsly pointed out in a video about what would happen if Obi-Wan and Anakin went to Mandalore with Ahsoka to deal with Maul and how everything changes because of those factors. If Palpatine was stopped in time, the war would have probably ended very differently and the aftermath would have been a lot different since in the immediate aftermath the Empire started immediately oppressing and taking control of entire planets and systems, but the Republic while still very corrupted would have still had many good-natured Jedi and even some good Senators since in this timeline most of those on the Delegation of 2000 weren't arrested or killed immediately following the rise of the Empire like they were in the original timeline, so there might have been more peace and less occupation, but there still would have been some planets that continued to suffer because of the corrupt Republic like before, but I don't think it would have been as bad as the Empire, I at least image loyal Republic worlds like Ryloth and Kashyyyk would have been left alone instead of immediately attack and occupied like in canon for Ryloth and legends for Kashyyyk. I also think those good-natured Jedi and Senators would have tried to help the Clones become free, whether or not they succeeded would be debatable given how corrupt the Senate still would be even without Palpatine, but they would still make the attempt because in this timeline many of the morally good people would still be alive and have some decent authority in the Republic to try and make things better after the war ended, instead of the Empire just making things even worse than before.
@@kingorange7739 I wouldn't say Anakin was a fascist before his turn, more like he held some authoritarian views privately, while being loyal to the Jedi way and the ideals of the Republic. And his views on the Jedi needing to be more ruthless and effective in fighting the war were justified, since it would've won the war sooner and saved more lives overall.
The Republic was still right to fight the war as the massive droid army led by a darksider was a clear threat, the rights or wrongs of secession notwithstanding. The "good' Separatists were simply useful idiots of Dooku and Gunray (who were themselves duped by Sidious).
Really? Tell that to all the droids the “good” Seppies sent to their deaths. There are no good Separatists only droid killers who need to meet HK-47
For fairness, those droids were made to have it
The Separatist lives on even after the war the outer rim will rise again
Was about to go to sleep before the last day till summer holidays but then I saw the upload and just had to...
If I was alive on the Star Wars galaxy as a non Force sensitive during the time of the clone wars, I would have joined the Separatist Alliance.
Same
Been binging your videos man; glad to finally catch one shortly after release.
So basically the Republic and CIS can be summed up the same. There were many good People on both sides but both sides also included some of the worst people in galactic history
That's essentially the beginning of revenge of the sith
Hm, interesting.
Wish we could’ve explored this side of the CIS a little more throughout any of the Shows or maybe even Games.
Seps and the republic is basically the rebellion vs the empire just in different times both the rebellion and the confederacy were fighting for freedom
Agreed. Almost like George sat back and went "I will get people to cheer the first generation of the Empire." The CIS is similar to the Rebels and the Resistance, just marketed differently.
This is Canon for me! I hope we see more stuff like this in the future!
I like how in the EU the empire didn't go 100 percent away and the remaining pieces was allowed to co-exist with the new republic. That's great for those who came from absolute unstable backgrounds which means they would have a solid ground to launch themselves into the greater galaxy.
Imagine a mother from a war torn planet who's fleeing with her children from not only from her planet but an abusive spouse as well. The remnant of the empire likely had jobs programs and housing of some form, especially given that they want to show the galaxy that they changed.
With a stable life the family could then rebuild their lives such as technical institutions where the refugee children could become star ship mechanics or something else that would provide them access to gainful employment outside of the empire if they so wish to leave it.
Imagine going from something like a War Hammer 40k death planet to a factory job,subsidized housing, and a half-way decent school district. That's more can be said than what the Jedi did for Anakin Sky Walker's mother. They could have paid to release his mother from captivity at least.
I don't get how a planet can starve.
It's like come on man grow some crops, fish some fish, hunt some animals.
I mean, we can do that here, but a shit load of people are starving
I agree with just about everything except for Grievous. If you look at his backstory, you can see why he did all the things he did.
When you really get down to it, basically the whole galaxy got a raw deal out of the clone wars. Either fight for an aging, ever darkening republic or a separatist group backed by the worst of the galaxy's mega corporations running a veritable campaign of terror. Win or lose, the Republic or the CIS, the whole galaxy was in for dark times ahead regardless.
People are never truly evil or good everybody exists somewhere in between, making decisions for the best outcomes that benefit them and their interests, a collection of souls trying to make it through the horror show that is life. Are we all not guilty of making bad decisions, then only to regret them instantly after we come face to face with truth of what we have done or created.
I tend to view the CIS as good people who made a deal with a demon to fight the devil (Republic).
Good ideals
Evil actions
So, how I understood this video, is that the Separatist Parliament was as useless as the Republic Senate.
It seems in Star Wars, there's nowhere where the grass is greener on the other side.
It's also worth noting neither side was truly good or evil. As said in the revenge of the opening crawl their are heroes and villains on both sides.
@Darth Revan but the revenge of the sith opening crawl seems more accurate.
Seems it depends on the individual Separatists on question. However NOT being evil DON'T justify just committing heinous atrocities and claiming "it's nothing personal", "just business", "was only obeying orders" and plenty probably various other excuses.
O/T: When Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan reported to the Jedi council with Anakin, *and reported on the existence of the Sith* after the first encounter with Darth Maul, _Why_ didn't the Jedi Council call out the big guns then and there?
Instead they decided that the Naboo rescue mission should just be the same bunch who escaped… returning.
*Yoda:* A Sith? everything this changes.
Master Windu accompany you back he will, along with any Jedi Masters chooses he does.
On the ground Maul gets diced and _quadsected_ by Mace Windu, the Trade Federation is taken down far quicker as the city raid has far more muscle. The Gungans will have some quality spec ops troops (just don't let the Jedi be Generals - they will have the Gungans marching outside the protection of their shields).
And the space battle won't be such a fluke with spinning saving the day, as Jedi pilots will run rings around those earlier generation droid fighters.
Yet later on at Geonosis, they send in a hundred or so Jedi for the arena rescue, including even the mid level students who get gunned down.
Yes it was the tip of the spear of a full military campaign with their newly discovered Clone army. But it showed that the Jedi could muster a large number of their own people at a moment's notice.
Enslaved the entire galaxy
Jedi to his side and
See but thats the beautiful thing about the prequels as much as people used to love to hate on them george knew what he was doing see the reason that didn't happen is because the jedi were ignorant throughout the whole prequels remember in phantom menace they say the return of the sith is impossible and then after maul was quote on quote killed palpatine and dooku were thr only ones left and they didn't believe dooku to be as evil as he was and palpatine was manipulative the whole trilogy yes everything could've and should've been prevented but you have to remember just how good of a villain palpatine is he had planned all this for years and brought the most powerful
The Senate deserves nothing but love.
Dooku is a prime example of someone who hijacks a movement and use it for their own selfish ends.
Dude had no morals he would look someone straight in the face and tell them he’s a friend while he ignites his lightsaber
3:59 one of the few times I've seen fascist used right in recent memory. Corporatism(or more rarely syndicalism)+national (ethnonationalism or otherise)+militarism= fascism. So Dooku is a literal fascist as well as a racist (speciesist?)
There had been good and evil elements on both sides of the Clone Wars...
Just from the start, the clones never had a choice, so you can't say they're "bad" regardless of what happened...
They did have a choice. The deserters and traitors in their ranks prove it
Come all ye’ sons of freedom and join our southern band,
We’re going to fight the Yankees and drive them from our land!
Justice is our motto and Providence our guide,
So jump into the wagon and we’ll all take ride!
_Wait for the wagon, the Dissolution Wagon, the South is a Wagon and we’ll all take ride!_
CIS FOR LIFE
They'd be seen in a way better light if they didn't have megacorporations like the Trade Federation, Banking Clan, Techno Union on their side, and the Zygerrian Slave Empire, as well as having a guy that's been confirmed as a Sith by the Jedi as the head of Parliament.
Where do you get your images?
I hate that star wars makes each planet comparable to a tiny country or a city. Seriously, how does a planet of a few billion people(on the high end) starve to death? They either need to increase the populations or explain this disparity.
On Tatooine, ok everyone's going to starve without trade, but they are probably there for a reason. At least I hope so and there's not billions of them, probably less than a million. But a real planet with billions is going to have an ecosystem, even if it is imported.
So the only planets that should be pressured by trade are city planets, like the core world's. Everyone else should be fine living alone, especially for just a few years.
It might have started as a noble ID but I was nothing more than a sift up at specially with those corporate scum bags
The ironic part is that i would have most likely joined the sepratists and the rebublic allowed this faction to happen. I would stand with the good side of it obviously but the problem with both sides were corrupt by the true leaders.
Some didn't deserve damnation, yes, but since they fought on the wrong side of history, well... can't agree to spare them entirely, you know. No sacrifice, no victory, even if it means innocents and good folk being sacrificed to appease the Multiverse and such.
There was no right side of history in that conflict. The Republic were just as horrible, and became the Empire before the war even ended. And the crimes of the Empire continued after it achieved victory.
Why Umbarans were outraged by Medici's death? Isn't the whole assasinations and murder part of their culture?
What kind of state would you like? One that is multicultural but greedy? Or one that is disciplined but oppressive?
The seperatists (ideas, people etc) were overall good imo but the people holding in power were not very good.
Could you do a take on what if Palpatine had Grievous kill the CIS high council instead of Vader. Like he could order him under the idea that they were a main reason that the CIS was losing. With their deaths the CIS would have a better shot at a comeback, or at the very least Palps. would have further plans for Grievous in the Empire. Like a super bodyguard or a personal assassin.
He killed him because he would much rather have anakin then grievous (which hurts cause he’s my top 5 fav Star Wars characters) if obi wan was never sent after grievous there was a lower chance that anakin would have turned since obi wan was still in the picture, also grievous had loyalty to dooku and with dooku dead there was no guessing what grievous would do.
i see it the same way you do, they werent evil more like morally grey but closer to evil than good...you know Zygerrians are a thing.
I can agree there was no clear good or side in clone wars even if I chose the republic until it became the empire.
It very difficult to judge the entire CIS as a whole due to its structure and loose affiliations! I’m sure when it came to local planetary governments that wanted to secede from the Republic for the best interest of their people then from that perspective the separatist were good! But the corporate members and the army of the separatist were bad but the same can be said for the controversial republic army which also did their fair share of harm towards innocent civilians during the war!
Excited for bad batch season 2
what happened to the separatists after the clone wars?
CIS was better than the Empire however you slice them apples.
At least the people had SOME say, however little it was.
The republic did what all do when faced with rebellion and they had the right to do that
For all that the Seperatists were supposed to be sympathetic, they sure aren’t portrayed that way in the prequel films/Clone Wars show.
I mean both yes and no. The films actually did highlight that heroes were on both sides and still had Dooku in a more nuanced brush.
@@kingorange7739 The films *say* that…. but then don’t expand upon it in any meaningful way at all. We never really see the Separatists being virtuous, and the Jedi performing objectively bad actions.
@@TitusCastiglione1503 um there have been plenty of times in the PT where the Jedi performed objectively bad actions and decisions. As for the CIS, the only reason more coverage wasn’t done on them was because all the POV characters were associated with the Republic.
@@kingorange7739 can you provide some examples?
@@TitusCastiglione1503 I mean we can start with their complacency with slavery in the outer rim, leaving Anakin’s mother in slavery despite having the capabilities to free her, attacking Geonosis thus starting the Clone Wars, and in Mace’s case trying to assassinating Palpatine without even thinking of the knock on effects of such an action.
I believe that the Confederacy of Independent Systems was good, and that it did not look down on none human races , and that there senate was less corrupt than the Republic and if they destroyed the Republic there would be no Galactic Empire
They common separatist wanted to determine their own fate.
Good intention's being exploited by bad leadership. And that is the Dooku of legends, not canon. In canon , he isn’t a racist, but still a noble idealist fascist who saw the Sith plan as the best way toward making just system for the majority species and worlds
I did once envision reality well instead of the new Republic most of the star systems outside The core separated and the form their own nations after the empire fall sort of like a Star Wars version of the medieval period the core reform into the new Empire that’s meant to represent the Byzantines and the Mandalorian‘s or the new Mandalorian empire The Arabs as well as the church of the force basically Christianity
Certain clones are and will be forever good. Same with the Jedi and Confederacy.
Never been this early. LOL
Dooku is based
where it counted? yes
I'm starting to think Geetsly's is seppie propaganda.
The CIS was one of the more evil aligned factions in the Star Wars fiction but it wasn't solely evil a good deal of the separatist parliament actually supported and in Mon Mothima's case formed the Rebel Alliance an alliance that saw a good many clones who survived and had free will during the galactic civil war join such as captain Rex so saying it's completely black and white would be a lie.
And this I would agree with. That was the sad thing. Both the Republic and CIS had terrible flaws that ultimately made them overall morally corrupt systems.
That's because the one thing both factions had in common, was Palpatine who either didn't genuinely care or was content in letting the CIS be slaughtered after it survived it's purpose
@@chadflanaganCFC true
Umbara:
Ok In my book, they OVERREACTED.
Just because the senator was assassinated doesn't mean the republic was to blame.
It could have EASILY been an independent contractor.
I invite anyone to shed some light on this point if I am missing details.
nsd yes, tchnically they didn't do anything wrong when seceding, they still overreacted in my book
both side were not evil it just both sued and ocrrupted by sith messing with both sides no 1 good or evil both had evila nd good within them
The separatists weren't inheritently evil they wanted anything from retribution to independence and were taken advantage of by Sidious and Dooku and the corrupt core factions they had assembled.
"The Clone Wars was a terrific show with plenty of valuable lessons for children and adults alike."
Burn your enemies alive with flamethrowers, execute wounded and helpless enemy combatants, support terrorist elements to weaken governments opposed to you...
All good things to learn
I think the true believers of the seperatist movement were disappointed in what their movement became. Then of course they banded together with the true believers of the republic and eventually formed the rebellion
Man count dooku sounds like an edgelord
Jabiim was 100% justified. It's also apparant that Jabiim was meant to be synonymous with Vietnam. In Vietnam's case. It was a colony of France for the longest time and the French treated them like complete shit. The rest of the west did nothing to help kick the French out of Vietnam. Then all of a sudden, the USSR and China offer to assist Vietnam and the U.S. is worried about Vietnam causing other countries in Asia to turn communist, so all of a sudden they take an interest in Vietnam. No different than Jabiim. Just factions looking to take advantage of the little guy.
I dunno bro, I hate clankers.
Same bro.