Hey everyone, thanks for the comments! I just wanted to point out that there's an update video, telling the 260ST's story in detail and showing the original boot process, as well as correcting a few erroneous assumptions on my part. You can watch that one here: th-cam.com/video/SLmC5jWXTP8/w-d-xo.html
RAM prices around 1985 were plummeting. It suddenly became possible to put half a meg in a home micro, and a full meg wasn't out of the question. The Amstrad CPC664 for example was obsolete within 6 months replaced with the CPC6128 for the same reason - upgrading from 64KB to 128KB was no longer expensive. You're correct about the drive. The 314 is very sought after. The vast majority of the drives in the UK at least were cumana or other third party suppliers. They were actually smaller and neater than the Atari 314 which is not only a larger drive but needs it's own brick PSU. Fascinating video Rees!
That's interesting. I remember seeing Cumana ads in our American magazines but everyone I knew stuck with Atari drives... except for those fortunate enough for affording a hard drive and then it was between Atari's own SH204 and the competing SupraDrive...
Always enjoy watching Atari related videos. I missed out on everything Atari 8-bit when I went down the Commodore 64 route. It seems as though the Atari scene is alive as much as the Commodore is.
Glad you enjoyed it! Yes, I think the Atari scene is slightly smaller but very active, I'm just glad that people are keeping the old machines alive no matter what they are. 🙂
@@ctrlaltrees I've watched a few videos on TH-cam by a guy called flashJazzCat who does Atari 8-bit computer repairs. There certainly seems to be a lot of mods around. I'm not sure I've seen as many games being developed for the computers like the 800xl nowadays though. That would be nice.
@@TheHighlander71 Ah, yes, FJC is a prominent Atari HCS (Home Computer System) AKA 800-series software developer, who also does some repairs. There are many homebrew games that have been developed for the HCS in the last couple decades+, and some publishers of commercial games, as well. ABBUC has a contest each year (with large monetary prizes), where some of the best games, other software, and hardware are submitted & judged: asc.abbuc.de/cgi-bin/index_en.cgi. There's even been at least one prominent modern HCS games that was ported to the C64: Yoomp!.
Almost no 260ST sold in Germany had only 256K. They all had 512K. The 520ST was almosty always sold with 1Meg here. Germany was an atypical market for the Atari as it was not considered as a game computer. It was really perceived as a Jackintosh or the superior PC. That's also why most German software requires the monochrome screen.
Thanks for the info! Yes, I did some further research after recording and this is definitely the case - a few may have slipped through the net with 256k but they were recalled and upgraded, and the 260ST was sold with a minimum of 512k just like the 520ST. I tried to emphasize this in the edit 🙂 Incidentally, I also have a Mega ST imported from Germany that also has a RAM upgrade. Interesting that the ST was so popular as a business machine there, it was definitely seen as a gaming machine here (that was also popular with musicians on a budget due to the MIDI ports, of course).
@@ctrlaltrees Yes, it was perceived as a professional machine. I've seen it used in big companies. I was once with my brother at DSD, a very prominent engeneering company that built bridges and steel structures around the world. They used ST's up until 1995 for word processors and mail exchange. The machines were networked (I don't remember how) and used to communicate between the workplaces. What was odd was that they used them in addition to the CAD stations that were high end PC's with AutoCAD. Personaly I have a Mega-ST2 that is extended to 4 with PC-Speed PC emulator and a VGA internal card that I bought 1988 for my IT studies. In 1991 I then bought a TT-030 as I earned my first money as a programmer. Funnily I managed to use the TT productively in my day job. There was 1 project we managed to finish 6 month early thanks to Pure-C on the TT.
@@galier2 Wow, that Mega ST2 sounds like quite a machine with those upgrades. Really fascinating to hear how the ST was used in a professional environment, thanks for sharing. I know people who were still using their Amigas for real work into the late 90s, but we don't talk about those 😉
@@ctrlaltrees The problem with my Megas-ST is the Megafile-60 doesn't start correctly anymore. The disk looks like starting but nothing happens on the ACSI bus. Also I threw away the ET-4000 ISA card that plugged into the adapter because it had landed some years ago in the electronic waste box. I have managed to find 2 ISA ET-4000 cards on ebay recently. I will have to try if they work. Maybe I should also start filming that stuff but that would require that I clean up my garage ;-)
@@ctrlaltrees It was quite well received in smaller businesses. Ergonomic flicker free monochrome CRT, low price, good software for small companies. And a bit later the Mega in a bundle with the Atari laserprinter was almost a Kickstart for low to medium sized DTP here. Yes, everybody knew the Mac and the Apple Laserwriter, but the Mac alone was more expensive than the complete Atari bundle. This may be a reason why a lot of German Mega ST have a RAM upgrade - as the laser printer was quite "dumb" (a bit like later GDI printer in Windows) all the processing had to be done on the ST, so 2M was minimum, when working with graphics 4MB almost necessary.
I'm really glad that machine went to someone like you who appreciates what it is. The packing tape on the underside made me cringe because many thousands of volts of static electricity are generated and remain on the tape when that kind of tape is pulled from its roll and _perhaps_, although I'm not sure, even when the adhesive bond is broken from the motherboard.
Even with the issues this is a great find. It's not surprising to see the memory upgrade. In Germany (and the Netherlands as well) the ST was much more of a productivity machine. That's why nearly every listing for an ST has the SM124 included. It's too bad the QWERTZ keyboard layout is so different though, I find it nearly unusable (One of my MSX2 machines has one)
I have various ST computers with UK keyboards so that's not a huge issue for me, I'm just happy to finally own one of these rare machines. This is the second ST I've bought from Germany - the first was a Mega ST and that had been upgraded too. It's good to know that these machines were used for serious work over there!
I'd love to tinker with an ST - I was far too young to use one at the time, but now, it's surprising to see how much love there is for it given that the Amiga was surely better in pretty much every way? Although I absolutely appreciate the big impact the ST had on music production due to it's inclusion of MIDI as standard; very clever. Ironic that it has such a limited sound chip!
Yeah, even as an Atari guy through and through I have to admit that the Amiga was superior when it came to gaming. Of course Atari would catch up with the STE but it was too little too late by that point as everyone was starting to move to PCs. Shame really that they cut those corners but that's Atari through and through! Of course the ST has a lot of nostalgic value for me and I love tinkering with all sorts of machines and appreciating them for what they are.
The YM2149 was basically a last-minute decision for inclusion in the ST after the Shiraz and the rest of the engineers couldn't get Atari Inc's AMY sound chip working in it properly. They then wanted to use the Yamaha YM2151 but Yahama wouldn't sell it to them - they were keeping it for their own MSX based MIDI computer - and would only sell them the YM1249. Atari Corp then contracted with Sight+Sound, who had made musical keyboards for the Commodore 64, to fix and finish the AMY sound chip and apparently they absconded with it instead and a suspicious factory fire destroyed all of their documentation and completed limited production run of their first batch of fixed AMYs in circa 1987/1988. And that's why the Atari ST ended up with inferior internal audio to the Amiga. A fixed AMY, the YM2151, or a combination of both would've made everyone exclaim "PAULA what?"
@@TheJeremyHolloway shame it didn't come to pass. Amiga launched with better audio and graphics chips, but the ST still had it's place in the world of MIDI production and perhaps also DTP?
@@cromulence there's a lot of "shames". Atari Inc's "Silver and Gold" chipset not being released, or even the more powerful "OMNI" chipset that wasn't finished right before Atari Consumer was sold to the Tramiels. "VGA" level graphics in 1984 that only ate up about 60K RAM, and separate sprite processors. Apparently, they would've been more expensive to manufacture than the Amiga Lorraine chipset which at the time Atari Inc had the rights to which is why prior to the Tramiels, they were going to use them in the 16-bit Mickey console and the 1850XLD. But Amiga Corp ripped off Atari Inc as it was crumbling [Atari Inc, that is] and right before the Tramiels took over and the tech ended up in Commodore's grubby hands instead. I mean, Atari Inc's Advanced Engineering Division had their own GUI running atop BSD in 1983. The guys that coded it are still afraid to this day they'll be sued if they release it. Alas...
@@Great-Documentaries it's not ridiculous. The OMNI chip staff have said so... 640x400 ish with 256 colors on screen while burning 60K RAM, not counting the virtual desktop beyond that. And hundreds of sprites via its own separate sprite processor which could be expanded up to 3 sprite processors [and this was long before the Sharp X68000 copied the idea but brought it to market]. The ST can do all of its resolutions with 32K of RAM and the SHIFTER was nowhere near as powerful as OMNI or even the competing Silver & Gold chipset that a rival group in Atari's Advanced Research Unit developed. The OMNI wasn't completed before the Tramiel takeover and Atari Inc's upper management decided to go with the Amiga Lorraine chipset over completing the OMNI or using Silver & Gold because it was already projected to be cheap enough to roll out as a game system for Christmas 1985 code named "Mickey". But then Amiga Corp - with Commodore's money - tried defrauding Atari Inc and Warner by claiming they couldn't get the chipset working and attempted to return Atari Inc's $500k investment while breaching their agreement by having sold themselves to Commodore for around $30 million. The OMNI team left Atari Inc - with permission - and tried persuading other companies to bankroll them finishing up their chipset but it didn't happen. The Tramiels took over and weren't interested in the graphics chip from the Silver & Gold chipset but wanted to use the AMY sound chip but couldn't get it to work and thus it wasn't used in the ST. They sold it to Sight+Sound with the agreement they could use the AMY in their products if S+S fixed it but S+S stiffed them and tried to use it exclusively in their own products, got sued over it, and then everything burnt up in a suspicious warehouse fire. The problem with you lot is you think the Amiga is the bestest evah even though the GUI looks like some Fisher Price sh*te and the OS was wide open to endless virus infections thanks to the stupid Kickstart discs, not to mention how dumb Commodore was in trying to sell the Amiga 1000 nearly at the $2000 mark when it debuted even though it only had 256K RAM. Amigans and Vegans, annoying to all. Fact!
Excellent! It's always exciting to unbox an eBay purchase and see some extras included too! Looking forward to the restoration journey here with this machine.
When I dug my old 520stm out after 29 years in storage the sf 354 did not work. Changed the drive belt and used a 3.5” head cleaner and that brought it back to life
Good tip! Hopefully it's something simple, it certainly seems to be *trying* to work which is more than I can say for some Atari floppy drives I've come across in the past.
ST's really are a loverly looking thing. I never know whether to trust the pictures when its not in the description of a eBay listing. Might take a few more chances now! Great Video!
Same story with my 520ST, no mention of the original boxes for the computer or disk drive but I spotted them in the background of one of the photos, when it was delivered it was all immaculate in the original boxes!
I'd never heard of this model of ST before, but with the ROM TOS installed and expanded to 1MB of RAM it's quite a neat machine. Particularly if you're going to use it with a hard drive emulator, lessening the need for the external floppy drive.
I have some ideas for this machine. I *might* transfer the 1MB upgrade into my 520ST and restore this to its original spec, I haven't decided yet. I use my STE and Mega ST for general Atari-ing, they have later versions of TOS and the video output is much better on those, so I wouldn't be using this one as a "daily driver" anyway.
Looks like someone just worked on it at some point, taping the screws inside so not to loose them when he was finished. But, it never got to that point. Fascinating how you can tell a story from things that are slightly out of order. :)
Yes, I wonder what the story is here and how the seller got their hands on it. I'm assuming from the bad packaging job and the random Firewire cables that they may not be a "computer person". Probably rude to ask, though. 🙂
@@ctrlaltrees Call me rude, but I always ask because I'm genuinely interested in the history and their stories. I've never had anyone seem to be offened.
@@RetroDawn Interesting point. Perhaps it is a cultural difference, or more likely it's just me! In my experience it's not common to ask "Why are you selling this?" in the UK but if I was the seller and someone asked me I certainly wouldn't be offended, I'd just find it a bit unusual I guess. I suppose my concern would be if someone had died and the seller didn't want to talk about it. But I do tend to overthink things like that...
Hey, I remember seeing that listing two weeks ago, I've had it on my watchlist, but didn't bit as I decided it wasn't the best choice as the first ST in 20 years, and with no spare parts around. Nice to see it going to a good home.
I think you made a good choice, to be honest the video output on these earlier models isn't the best, I reckon you'd be much better off with a later machine like an STFM or even stretch to an STE if you can. Oh and don't worry, I'll take good care of it!
@@ctrlaltrees Set my eyes on a 1040 STF(M). I think that's a nice all-in-one package to kinda get back into Ataris. Plenty to choose from and affordable. A STE is a bit expensive for something I don't know I'll keep interested in. Never had one myself back in the day, mostly been PC guy since the XT days. But we had some in the family so I've used them (well, quite a bit...) when visiting relatives. My Aunt still used her early 1040ST way into the 2000s, it was still set up and running when I helped my cousin fix his Athlon system, so PCs were already up in the GHz range by the time. She was still quite happy with a stock 8MHz 1040 which is quite a statement for the ST as such.
@@crkretrotech1011 Nice! The 1MB of RAM is definitely useful to have and the STFM isn't as easy to upgrade as the STE, so great to find a 1040 model! To be honest there's not all that much benefit to owning an STE, there are some modern efforts to adapt games to take advantage of its extra capabilities (something I'm planning to cover in a future video) but developers "back in the day" targeted the older STs as there were just so many of them already out there.
still have my original 520STFM which I purchased new around 1986/87 however the psu in it has unfortunately expired - also got lucky a couple of years ago and picked up a 520STe at a good price of eBay - turned out to have 4MB RAM fitted and all that was wrong with it was a bad 555 IC so it never came out of reset on power up
There were two other different 260ST models, there was the unreleased 260STF or STD as it was called originally which I saw the case of at a computer show in the 80s, the built in disk drive was on the opposite side to the 520STFM/1040STF where the cartridge port is on the original 520ST. The regular 260ST without the built in drive is exactly the same as the 520ST launch machines that came with TOS on disk I think hence the machine was sold as a 260ST because loading the OS took up half the memory. Atari did the opposite of Commodore, the 512k Amiga 1000 is actually 512k RAM and an additional 192K of protected Write Once RAM that kickstart loaded into so was actually more like a 768k Computer in summer 1985 based on how Atari badged their launch machines as 512k. I do have one of these in full retail packaging...perhaps one day I will do a video on it (still how it came when I bought, a box packed inside another box).. Some people still insist they are Summer/Autumn 1985 original disk loading OS versions of the 520ST that are rebadged as fake and they should be 256k machines with GEM/TOS in ROM. Tramiel said in an interview the actually proposed 130ST and 260ST he talked about with OS on ROM were cancelled because they made no sense as the price of DRAM chips had fallen so much. I think the original ST with no OS in ROM on the motherboard was a very short production run, a bit like a tiny number of original NTSC Amiga 1000s that had no 64 colour mode feature on the video display chip so perhaps he had a stack of 520ST motherboards with no OS in ROM and did a production run of '260ST' boxes after the 260STF was cancelled.
Thanks for the info! I'd definitely be interested in seeing those machines if and when you put that video together. I've never even heard of the STD with the disk drive on the other side.
@@ctrlaltrees I also had to build a PSU for mine (www.exxoshost.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=1714&hilit=PSU) I recently had a Mega with a faulty floppy and that turned to be the DMA in that case.
Nice find! The oddest ST drive I have is an external 5 1/4” Atari drive which came with a PC3. It uses a standard ST style floppy connector on the PC3, so should be compatible with the ST afaik. I think 5 1/4” drives were a bit more common in the USA for ST’s?
The Mega ST form factor PC (was it the PC1?) had a 5 1/4" internal. It would be interesting to see whether the external drive would work with an ST - personally I don't see why not!
@@ctrlaltrees Yep, Atari re-used all the peripherals from the ST line to help keep costs down for the PC line. The PC3 I have has an internal 5 1/4" drive, too. I've not found a PC1 at a reasonable price yet -- I do like the look of it... ;) Although, interestingly, I don't *think* the mouse is compatible between the PC and ST. I must get around to getting it out and having a play with it all. I actually have 2 PC3's now... I'm terrible at turning down a good price for things. XD One was from Germany I think, the other from mid Wales. Even came with a monitor! :)
The firewire cables were the packing material 🤣 Anyway, nice acquisition there. Hope it cleans up okay and maybe that FDD issue is connector-related. 🤞
Finding all the screws taped to the inside like that really tells a story. Someone definitely pulled this thing apart to clean, maybe do some maintenance, put it to one side to finish another time... and just never came back. Kind of sad in a way, but it's got a loving new home, now. 💜
Indeed, it's definitely interesting to think about. I have a few of my own projects like this! Maybe one day they'll end up on ebay for some TH-camr to poke about with...
The Atari really has a story and because of the screws , the tape and the extension I am very sure that this machine once belonged to me. I am so happy to see it again.
They were quite common in Germany. They replaced the 520ST when the 520STF came out. As I said in another comment, the 520ST were delivered with 1Meg of RAM and the 260ST with 512K.
Haha, it's all good. Indeed, the earliest machines had the boot ROMs. I managed to track some down and I am going to be demoing how the boot process worked in an upcoming video. 🙂
Interesting, what would you say were the benefits of the floppy-based TOS? I've only ever heard the RAM usage and the boot time described in negative terms by the internet "hive-brain" but I'm always willing to learn!
@@ctrlaltrees It was beautiful. At that time, it was very FXy. And consider the technicalities of CRTVs. When I had my first ST, the 260, my only screen with a SCART plug could not sync to 60Hz.
@@ctrlaltrees When the beef is over, i'll have to dig out my ST from the folks loft. I wonder if the 52mb DataPulse HD still works? But I only really want it to use Dr. Tirric, i'm sure you understand. ;)
@@spaniyell Ha! "The beef" 😄 I've had a lot of good luck with old Atari HDs so you never know! Perhaps I should redo my intro as a full-on Dr. Tirric rap? 🤔
Did ST Format hate the SF354 as most of us did? Maybe we should've hated the software publishers defaulting to supporting that sh*t drive as the standard for all up until the TT030 and Falcon030...
I certainly remember repairing laptops with nipples. Gentle heat gun and plastic soft tools only. Wont take the stress marks it but will help with the shape
I think I recognize my ST260 that I sold in 1990. Can that be? At that time I soldered in a graphic extension (www.stcarchiv.de/stc1986/04/speichererweiterungen) , with which an even higher resolution can be switched on. Adhesive strip with screws and under the board looks very familiar to me.
Why did Atari still fit single sided drives to some Stfms? I have one that had the rather limited single sided drive (center button). Is it rare? Yet this older model ST you have has the double sided unit.
Thanks! I'm using these coat hooks from Amazon, same for the Astro City control panel and Sparrow motherboard on the right hand side. Here's the link: www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B07Q1PBSS8 It seems the black version has sold out now but you should be able to find something similar - or go with the silver / gold if that works for you. They're very sturdy and pretty deep too. The plan is to rotate which systems I have in shot (if I remember...)
@@ctrlaltrees thanks very much. 😊 I would like to do the same thing. Keeps things interesting and you get to see your different consols, as I don't have alot of space in my setup to keep them all out. It's an addictive hobbie lol
I've never looked inside a 520STm - or in this instance, a 260STm - but there seems to be an empty spot on that motherboard. Was the RF modulator removed?
Ah yes, I was going to mention this when I was recording but it slipped my mind. The original 260ST and 520ST models didn't have the modulator - another cost cutting exercise. The STM models did - the "M" standing for Modulator (incidentally, the "F" in STFM stands for "Floppy").
@@ctrlaltrees I didn't know that. I thought all of the 520STs prior to the release of the 1040STf had modulators and thus the "m" added to their title. So the pre TOS-in-ROM models didn't even have the modulators although the spot on the motherboard was obviously there. Interesting.
@@ctrlaltrees no worries, its in good hands now! I reccon as a "painfully booring original" it would keep its value best. Two questions; have anyone EVER seen a 130ST? And isnt a Rev E. motherboard a late one for a 260?
Rev. E certainly does seem late, althought my 520ST is only a Rev. F. I wonder if there were earlier revisions in the wild or were there problems that lead to revisions A-D not making it to market? I've thought about your idea further now and I really like the idea of "downgrading" back to the original 256k spec with the boot ROMs. The only thing I'm not sure about is the RAM - I wonder how this would have been configured considering 128k DRAM chips don't really seem to be a "thing". I shall have to keep digging for info. 🙂
Great video as always Do you know of anywhere to purchase a mouse ball for an atari st mouse ive been looking for one for a year now (I purchased one without the ball) they dont seem to be a standard size like pc mice :(
If anyone's interested, I have a 260ST for sale. Untested, because I don't have a PSU or Monitor for it. PCB looks clean, unmodified, TOS ROMs and 512kB RAM installed. German keyboard, will ship internationally.
Interesting (and rare) find! Didn't knew that many 260ST came with 512KB out of factory. Always thought that the badge clearly indicates the stock amount of memory! Also here in germany. ^^ 11:15 Now this RAM extension looks very familiar. I got the same (from Rocke Computer) in my 520STM! Ok, some other mods, too! flic.kr/p/2b4Bc5J 😲😂
Oh nice! Now that's a serious 520STM! Looks like you have some kind of stereo (well, joint mono) audio output mod there, I'm not sure what the other mods could be. 🤔
@@ctrlaltrees Yes, it's a stereo-mod with mono/stereo switch. Mono is still needed for most sampled sounds. The left switch (black lever) switches between TOS 1.0 and KAOS-TOS! But I have no idea anymore, what the RCA-jack on the right back-side is good for. Must be a sort of voltage output, 5V maybe. But for what reason? 🤔 flic.kr/p/2dVw8fL
Interesting, the 5V output would be useful for an external add-on like the UltraSatan. I've never used KAOS TOS but I have heard of it, I should give it a try!
I'm convinced Atari had a stockpile of original 520 cases and wanted to use them. Stock room guy #1: "Hey, we got a bunch of them 520 ST cases. What do we do with them?" Stock room guy #2: "Well, they re-designed the 520 shell to include an internal power supply and an internal floppy disk drive, so not sure those will work anymore." Stock room guy #1: "Well shucks, why don't we just half-it!" Stock room guy #2: "Uhh, half-it?" Stock room guy #1: "Sure! We half the RAM, then half the model number, and then we can re-use the case!" (2 weeks later...) VERY Important Atari people: "It is with great regards we salute you, Stock room guy #1, with this Atari medal of valor, for reducing waste and simultaneously increasing profits! Here is your Atari VCS and 27 copies of E.T.!" Stock room guy #1 "Umm, gee, thanks. I did need some new targets for skeet shooting practice..."
Hey everyone, thanks for the comments! I just wanted to point out that there's an update video, telling the 260ST's story in detail and showing the original boot process, as well as correcting a few erroneous assumptions on my part. You can watch that one here: th-cam.com/video/SLmC5jWXTP8/w-d-xo.html
Given what cold air does to the nipple, the logic for hot air seems pretty valid
RAM prices around 1985 were plummeting. It suddenly became possible to put half a meg in a home micro, and a full meg wasn't out of the question. The Amstrad CPC664 for example was obsolete within 6 months replaced with the CPC6128 for the same reason - upgrading from 64KB to 128KB was no longer expensive.
You're correct about the drive. The 314 is very sought after. The vast majority of the drives in the UK at least were cumana or other third party suppliers. They were actually smaller and neater than the Atari 314 which is not only a larger drive but needs it's own brick PSU.
Fascinating video Rees!
That's interesting. I remember seeing Cumana ads in our American magazines but everyone I knew stuck with Atari drives... except for those fortunate enough for affording a hard drive and then it was between Atari's own SH204 and the competing SupraDrive...
Great video. The ST (rare version or otherwise) doesn’t get enough love on TH-cam. Fantastic machines that hold a lot of great memories for me.
Always enjoy watching Atari related videos. I missed out on everything Atari 8-bit when I went down the Commodore 64 route. It seems as though the Atari scene is alive as much as the Commodore is.
Glad you enjoyed it! Yes, I think the Atari scene is slightly smaller but very active, I'm just glad that people are keeping the old machines alive no matter what they are. 🙂
@@ctrlaltrees I've watched a few videos on TH-cam by a guy called flashJazzCat who does Atari 8-bit computer repairs. There certainly seems to be a lot of mods around. I'm not sure I've seen as many games being developed for the computers like the 800xl nowadays though. That would be nice.
@@TheHighlander71 Ah, yes, FJC is a prominent Atari HCS (Home Computer System) AKA 800-series software developer, who also does some repairs. There are many homebrew games that have been developed for the HCS in the last couple decades+, and some publishers of commercial games, as well. ABBUC has a contest each year (with large monetary prizes), where some of the best games, other software, and hardware are submitted & judged: asc.abbuc.de/cgi-bin/index_en.cgi. There's even been at least one prominent modern HCS games that was ported to the C64: Yoomp!.
Almost no 260ST sold in Germany had only 256K. They all had 512K. The 520ST was almosty always sold with 1Meg here. Germany was an atypical market for the Atari as it was not considered as a game computer. It was really perceived as a Jackintosh or the superior PC. That's also why most German software requires the monochrome screen.
Thanks for the info! Yes, I did some further research after recording and this is definitely the case - a few may have slipped through the net with 256k but they were recalled and upgraded, and the 260ST was sold with a minimum of 512k just like the 520ST. I tried to emphasize this in the edit 🙂
Incidentally, I also have a Mega ST imported from Germany that also has a RAM upgrade. Interesting that the ST was so popular as a business machine there, it was definitely seen as a gaming machine here (that was also popular with musicians on a budget due to the MIDI ports, of course).
@@ctrlaltrees Yes, it was perceived as a professional machine. I've seen it used in big companies. I was once with my brother at DSD, a very prominent engeneering company that built bridges and steel structures around the world. They used ST's up until 1995 for word processors and mail exchange. The machines were networked (I don't remember how) and used to communicate between the workplaces. What was odd was that they used them in addition to the CAD stations that were high end PC's with AutoCAD.
Personaly I have a Mega-ST2 that is extended to 4 with PC-Speed PC emulator and a VGA internal card that I bought 1988 for my IT studies. In 1991 I then bought a TT-030 as I earned my first money as a programmer. Funnily I managed to use the TT productively in my day job. There was 1 project we managed to finish 6 month early thanks to Pure-C on the TT.
@@galier2 Wow, that Mega ST2 sounds like quite a machine with those upgrades. Really fascinating to hear how the ST was used in a professional environment, thanks for sharing. I know people who were still using their Amigas for real work into the late 90s, but we don't talk about those 😉
@@ctrlaltrees The problem with my Megas-ST is the Megafile-60 doesn't start correctly anymore. The disk looks like starting but nothing happens on the ACSI bus. Also I threw away the ET-4000 ISA card that plugged into the adapter because it had landed some years ago in the electronic waste box. I have managed to find 2 ISA ET-4000 cards on ebay recently. I will have to try if they work.
Maybe I should also start filming that stuff but that would require that I clean up my garage ;-)
@@ctrlaltrees It was quite well received in smaller businesses. Ergonomic flicker free monochrome CRT, low price, good software for small companies. And a bit later the Mega in a bundle with the Atari laserprinter was almost a Kickstart for low to medium sized DTP here. Yes, everybody knew the Mac and the Apple Laserwriter, but the Mac alone was more expensive than the complete Atari bundle. This may be a reason why a lot of German Mega ST have a RAM upgrade - as the laser printer was quite "dumb" (a bit like later GDI printer in Windows) all the processing had to be done on the ST, so 2M was minimum, when working with graphics 4MB almost necessary.
I'm really glad that machine went to someone like you who appreciates what it is. The packing tape on the underside made me cringe because many thousands of volts of static electricity are generated and remain on the tape when that kind of tape is pulled from its roll and _perhaps_, although I'm not sure, even when the adhesive bond is broken from the motherboard.
Even with the issues this is a great find. It's not surprising to see the memory upgrade. In Germany (and the Netherlands as well) the ST was much more of a productivity machine. That's why nearly every listing for an ST has the SM124 included.
It's too bad the QWERTZ keyboard layout is so different though, I find it nearly unusable (One of my MSX2 machines has one)
I have various ST computers with UK keyboards so that's not a huge issue for me, I'm just happy to finally own one of these rare machines. This is the second ST I've bought from Germany - the first was a Mega ST and that had been upgraded too. It's good to know that these machines were used for serious work over there!
I'd love to tinker with an ST - I was far too young to use one at the time, but now, it's surprising to see how much love there is for it given that the Amiga was surely better in pretty much every way? Although I absolutely appreciate the big impact the ST had on music production due to it's inclusion of MIDI as standard; very clever. Ironic that it has such a limited sound chip!
Yeah, even as an Atari guy through and through I have to admit that the Amiga was superior when it came to gaming. Of course Atari would catch up with the STE but it was too little too late by that point as everyone was starting to move to PCs. Shame really that they cut those corners but that's Atari through and through!
Of course the ST has a lot of nostalgic value for me and I love tinkering with all sorts of machines and appreciating them for what they are.
The YM2149 was basically a last-minute decision for inclusion in the ST after the Shiraz and the rest of the engineers couldn't get Atari Inc's AMY sound chip working in it properly. They then wanted to use the Yamaha YM2151 but Yahama wouldn't sell it to them - they were keeping it for their own MSX based MIDI computer - and would only sell them the YM1249. Atari Corp then contracted with Sight+Sound, who had made musical keyboards for the Commodore 64, to fix and finish the AMY sound chip and apparently they absconded with it instead and a suspicious factory fire destroyed all of their documentation and completed limited production run of their first batch of fixed AMYs in circa 1987/1988. And that's why the Atari ST ended up with inferior internal audio to the Amiga. A fixed AMY, the YM2151, or a combination of both would've made everyone exclaim "PAULA what?"
@@TheJeremyHolloway shame it didn't come to pass. Amiga launched with better audio and graphics chips, but the ST still had it's place in the world of MIDI production and perhaps also DTP?
@@cromulence there's a lot of "shames". Atari Inc's "Silver and Gold" chipset not being released, or even the more powerful "OMNI" chipset that wasn't finished right before Atari Consumer was sold to the Tramiels. "VGA" level graphics in 1984 that only ate up about 60K RAM, and separate sprite processors. Apparently, they would've been more expensive to manufacture than the Amiga Lorraine chipset which at the time Atari Inc had the rights to which is why prior to the Tramiels, they were going to use them in the 16-bit Mickey console and the 1850XLD. But Amiga Corp ripped off Atari Inc as it was crumbling [Atari Inc, that is] and right before the Tramiels took over and the tech ended up in Commodore's grubby hands instead. I mean, Atari Inc's Advanced Engineering Division had their own GUI running atop BSD in 1983. The guys that coded it are still afraid to this day they'll be sued if they release it. Alas...
@@Great-Documentaries it's not ridiculous. The OMNI chip staff have said so... 640x400 ish with 256 colors on screen while burning 60K RAM, not counting the virtual desktop beyond that. And hundreds of sprites via its own separate sprite processor which could be expanded up to 3 sprite processors [and this was long before the Sharp X68000 copied the idea but brought it to market]. The ST can do all of its resolutions with 32K of RAM and the SHIFTER was nowhere near as powerful as OMNI or even the competing Silver & Gold chipset that a rival group in Atari's Advanced Research Unit developed. The OMNI wasn't completed before the Tramiel takeover and Atari Inc's upper management decided to go with the Amiga Lorraine chipset over completing the OMNI or using Silver & Gold because it was already projected to be cheap enough to roll out as a game system for Christmas 1985 code named "Mickey". But then Amiga Corp - with Commodore's money - tried defrauding Atari Inc and Warner by claiming they couldn't get the chipset working and attempted to return Atari Inc's $500k investment while breaching their agreement by having sold themselves to Commodore for around $30 million. The OMNI team left Atari Inc - with permission - and tried persuading other companies to bankroll them finishing up their chipset but it didn't happen. The Tramiels took over and weren't interested in the graphics chip from the Silver & Gold chipset but wanted to use the AMY sound chip but couldn't get it to work and thus it wasn't used in the ST. They sold it to Sight+Sound with the agreement they could use the AMY in their products if S+S fixed it but S+S stiffed them and tried to use it exclusively in their own products, got sued over it, and then everything burnt up in a suspicious warehouse fire. The problem with you lot is you think the Amiga is the bestest evah even though the GUI looks like some Fisher Price sh*te and the OS was wide open to endless virus infections thanks to the stupid Kickstart discs, not to mention how dumb Commodore was in trying to sell the Amiga 1000 nearly at the $2000 mark when it debuted even though it only had 256K RAM. Amigans and Vegans, annoying to all. Fact!
Excellent! It's always exciting to unbox an eBay purchase and see some extras included too! Looking forward to the restoration journey here with this machine.
When I dug my old 520stm out after 29 years in storage the sf 354 did not work. Changed the drive belt and used a 3.5” head cleaner and that brought it back to life
Good tip! Hopefully it's something simple, it certainly seems to be *trying* to work which is more than I can say for some Atari floppy drives I've come across in the past.
Excellent informative video. I have never heard of a Atari 260 ST before so you learn new things everyday :)
ST's really are a loverly looking thing. I never know whether to trust the pictures when its not in the description of a eBay listing. Might take a few more chances now! Great Video!
Same story with my 520ST, no mention of the original boxes for the computer or disk drive but I spotted them in the background of one of the photos, when it was delivered it was all immaculate in the original boxes!
I'd never heard of this model of ST before, but with the ROM TOS installed and expanded to 1MB of RAM it's quite a neat machine. Particularly if you're going to use it with a hard drive emulator, lessening the need for the external floppy drive.
I have some ideas for this machine. I *might* transfer the 1MB upgrade into my 520ST and restore this to its original spec, I haven't decided yet. I use my STE and Mega ST for general Atari-ing, they have later versions of TOS and the video output is much better on those, so I wouldn't be using this one as a "daily driver" anyway.
@@ctrlaltrees Does the 260 have MIDI ports? I still use my 1040STE for making music, as well as the occasional play of Carrier Command.
It does!
I believe the nip on the case can be fixed by placing it on a very flat surface and banging it from behind. Congrats on your 260 pickup!
Looks like someone just worked on it at some point, taping the screws inside so not to loose them when he was finished. But, it never got to that point. Fascinating how you can tell a story from things that are slightly out of order. :)
Yes, I wonder what the story is here and how the seller got their hands on it. I'm assuming from the bad packaging job and the random Firewire cables that they may not be a "computer person". Probably rude to ask, though. 🙂
@@ctrlaltrees Haha, I think so too yes. Likely parents cleaning out their kid's stuff from the attic.
@@ctrlaltrees Call me rude, but I always ask because I'm genuinely interested in the history and their stories. I've never had anyone seem to be offened.
Perhaps this is a USian thing, tho, as I'm from there.
@@RetroDawn Interesting point. Perhaps it is a cultural difference, or more likely it's just me! In my experience it's not common to ask "Why are you selling this?" in the UK but if I was the seller and someone asked me I certainly wouldn't be offended, I'd just find it a bit unusual I guess.
I suppose my concern would be if someone had died and the seller didn't want to talk about it. But I do tend to overthink things like that...
Hey, I remember seeing that listing two weeks ago, I've had it on my watchlist, but didn't bit as I decided it wasn't the best choice as the first ST in 20 years, and with no spare parts around. Nice to see it going to a good home.
I think you made a good choice, to be honest the video output on these earlier models isn't the best, I reckon you'd be much better off with a later machine like an STFM or even stretch to an STE if you can.
Oh and don't worry, I'll take good care of it!
@@ctrlaltrees Set my eyes on a 1040 STF(M). I think that's a nice all-in-one package to kinda get back into Ataris. Plenty to choose from and affordable. A STE is a bit expensive for something I don't know I'll keep interested in. Never had one myself back in the day, mostly been PC guy since the XT days. But we had some in the family so I've used them (well, quite a bit...) when visiting relatives. My Aunt still used her early 1040ST way into the 2000s, it was still set up and running when I helped my cousin fix his Athlon system, so PCs were already up in the GHz range by the time. She was still quite happy with a stock 8MHz 1040 which is quite a statement for the ST as such.
@@crkretrotech1011 Nice! The 1MB of RAM is definitely useful to have and the STFM isn't as easy to upgrade as the STE, so great to find a 1040 model! To be honest there's not all that much benefit to owning an STE, there are some modern efforts to adapt games to take advantage of its extra capabilities (something I'm planning to cover in a future video) but developers "back in the day" targeted the older STs as there were just so many of them already out there.
still have my original 520STFM which I purchased new around 1986/87 however the psu in it has unfortunately expired - also got lucky a couple of years ago and picked up a 520STe at a good price of eBay - turned out to have 4MB RAM fitted and all that was wrong with it was a bad 555 IC so it never came out of reset on power up
very good deal you got there.. i wasn't aware of the 260..
There were two other different 260ST models, there was the unreleased 260STF or STD as it was called originally which I saw the case of at a computer show in the 80s, the built in disk drive was on the opposite side to the 520STFM/1040STF where the cartridge port is on the original 520ST. The regular 260ST without the built in drive is exactly the same as the 520ST launch machines that came with TOS on disk I think hence the machine was sold as a 260ST because loading the OS took up half the memory. Atari did the opposite of Commodore, the 512k Amiga 1000 is actually 512k RAM and an additional 192K of protected Write Once RAM that kickstart loaded into so was actually more like a 768k Computer in summer 1985 based on how Atari badged their launch machines as 512k. I do have one of these in full retail packaging...perhaps one day I will do a video on it (still how it came when I bought, a box packed inside another box).. Some people still insist they are Summer/Autumn 1985 original disk loading OS versions of the 520ST that are rebadged as fake and they should be 256k machines with GEM/TOS in ROM. Tramiel said in an interview the actually proposed 130ST and 260ST he talked about with OS on ROM were cancelled because they made no sense as the price of DRAM chips had fallen so much. I think the original ST with no OS in ROM on the motherboard was a very short production run, a bit like a tiny number of original NTSC Amiga 1000s that had no 64 colour mode feature on the video display chip so perhaps he had a stack of 520ST motherboards with no OS in ROM and did a production run of '260ST' boxes after the 260STF was cancelled.
Thanks for the info! I'd definitely be interested in seeing those machines if and when you put that video together. I've never even heard of the STD with the disk drive on the other side.
Worth it just for the novelty value of the 260ST badge! Nice score.
I just love the industrial design on the STs. 😍
On my 520ST I had problems with the floppy drive not working, and it was the GLUE chip, so something quite easy to try out
Oh, that's a good tip, thanks! I have a few STs so I'll try a GLUE chip from a working one.
@@ctrlaltrees I also had to build a PSU for mine (www.exxoshost.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=1714&hilit=PSU) I recently had a Mega with a faulty floppy and that turned to be the DMA in that case.
Interesting, I used the cable from my old 520ST PSU and wired it into a PicoPSU, works great!
Nice find! The oddest ST drive I have is an external 5 1/4” Atari drive which came with a PC3. It uses a standard ST style floppy connector on the PC3, so should be compatible with the ST afaik. I think 5 1/4” drives were a bit more common in the USA for ST’s?
The Mega ST form factor PC (was it the PC1?) had a 5 1/4" internal. It would be interesting to see whether the external drive would work with an ST - personally I don't see why not!
@@ctrlaltrees Yep, Atari re-used all the peripherals from the ST line to help keep costs down for the PC line. The PC3 I have has an internal 5 1/4" drive, too. I've not found a PC1 at a reasonable price yet -- I do like the look of it... ;) Although, interestingly, I don't *think* the mouse is compatible between the PC and ST. I must get around to getting it out and having a play with it all.
I actually have 2 PC3's now... I'm terrible at turning down a good price for things. XD One was from Germany I think, the other from mid Wales. Even came with a monitor! :)
Nice, I really need to add an Atari PC to the collection!
Very interesting. And it was indeed a bargain at that price. Great for collectors.
The firewire cables were the packing material 🤣 Anyway, nice acquisition there. Hope it cleans up okay and maybe that FDD issue is connector-related. 🤞
Finding all the screws taped to the inside like that really tells a story.
Someone definitely pulled this thing apart to clean, maybe do some maintenance, put it to one side to finish another time... and just never came back. Kind of sad in a way, but it's got a loving new home, now. 💜
Indeed, it's definitely interesting to think about. I have a few of my own projects like this! Maybe one day they'll end up on ebay for some TH-camr to poke about with...
The Atari really has a story and because of the screws , the tape and the extension I am very sure that this machine once belonged to me. I am so happy to see it again.
How I wish I had kept all the Atari's,commadore's and Amiga's I have had over the years,my first pc type of machine I had was an Amiga 400!
The SF3x4 drives will not have the LED light on like that unless it's reading a disk, so it looks like the drive is bad.
Interesting, thanks for the info.
fascinating never heard of an Atari ST 260 before so must be very rare indeed just like the BBC Model A 16k thanks for sharing
They were quite common in Germany. They replaced the 520ST when the 520STF came out. As I said in another comment, the 520ST were delivered with 1Meg of RAM and the 260ST with 512K.
@@galier2 I thought the 520ST+ was the small form factor 1MB variant?
That was my understanding, too. My 520ST has 512k but it's a UK model, so perhaps 1MB was just for the German market?
Those joystick ports are way too accessible.
Can we not hide those away? Perhaps under the bottom?
My 260ST had no TOS ROMs, only a very colorful boot screen that asked the user to insert the TOS disk.
As you said on second later :|
Haha, it's all good. Indeed, the earliest machines had the boot ROMs. I managed to track some down and I am going to be demoing how the boot process worked in an upcoming video. 🙂
@@ctrlaltrees That would be nice, because the internet and the hive-brain seem to be unaware of how lucky those early, ROM-less customers were.
Interesting, what would you say were the benefits of the floppy-based TOS? I've only ever heard the RAM usage and the boot time described in negative terms by the internet "hive-brain" but I'm always willing to learn!
@@ctrlaltrees It was beautiful. At that time, it was very FXy.
And consider the technicalities of CRTVs.
When I had my first ST, the 260, my only screen with a SCART plug could not sync to 60Hz.
marketed as such purely due to DIsk TOS leaving only half the memory free...Doubt if any bar the odd show machine really only had 256k.
Nice, a double sided floppy with the big button! That'll freak out ST Format readers :D
I'm using an ST Format coverdisk to test it too :D
@@ctrlaltrees When the beef is over, i'll have to dig out my ST from the folks loft. I wonder if the 52mb DataPulse HD still works? But I only really want it to use Dr. Tirric, i'm sure you understand. ;)
@@spaniyell Ha! "The beef" 😄
I've had a lot of good luck with old Atari HDs so you never know!
Perhaps I should redo my intro as a full-on Dr. Tirric rap? 🤔
@@ctrlaltrees Cheers, I’m sure it’s just a white box with an ICD link in, shall see! Enjoy the channel, keep it up 👍
Did ST Format hate the SF354 as most of us did? Maybe we should've hated the software publishers defaulting to supporting that sh*t drive as the standard for all up until the TT030 and Falcon030...
Great video!
I certainly remember repairing laptops with nipples. Gentle heat gun and plastic soft tools only. Wont take the stress marks it but will help with the shape
I think I recognize my ST260 that I sold in 1990. Can that be? At that time I soldered in a graphic extension (www.stcarchiv.de/stc1986/04/speichererweiterungen) , with which an even higher resolution can be switched on. Adhesive strip with screws and under the board looks very familiar to me.
Why did Atari still fit single sided drives to some Stfms? I have one that had the rather limited single sided drive (center button). Is it rare? Yet this older model ST you have has the double sided unit.
good vid rees
Nice room setup. What system did you use to mount the Atari 2600 on the wall. I would like to do the same. Looks good.
Thanks! I'm using these coat hooks from Amazon, same for the Astro City control panel and Sparrow motherboard on the right hand side. Here's the link: www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B07Q1PBSS8
It seems the black version has sold out now but you should be able to find something similar - or go with the silver / gold if that works for you. They're very sturdy and pretty deep too. The plan is to rotate which systems I have in shot (if I remember...)
@@ctrlaltrees thanks very much. 😊 I would like to do the same thing. Keeps things interesting and you get to see your different consols, as I don't have alot of space in my setup to keep them all out. It's an addictive hobbie lol
Ha! Tell me about it...
I've never seen a 260 in-person... 🤔
I've never looked inside a 520STm - or in this instance, a 260STm - but there seems to be an empty spot on that motherboard. Was the RF modulator removed?
Ah yes, I was going to mention this when I was recording but it slipped my mind. The original 260ST and 520ST models didn't have the modulator - another cost cutting exercise. The STM models did - the "M" standing for Modulator (incidentally, the "F" in STFM stands for "Floppy").
@@ctrlaltrees I didn't know that. I thought all of the 520STs prior to the release of the 1040STf had modulators and thus the "m" added to their title. So the pre TOS-in-ROM models didn't even have the modulators although the spot on the motherboard was obviously there. Interesting.
I did fight for this one... 🤭
My plan was to restore it to basic 256kb spec and boot roms.
Oh did you! Apologies for that 😉
I have to admit that returning it to original spec is something I'm considering. I think it would be a fun project!
@@ctrlaltrees no worries, its in good hands now! I reccon as a "painfully booring original" it would keep its value best.
Two questions; have anyone EVER seen a 130ST? And isnt a Rev E. motherboard a late one for a 260?
Rev. E certainly does seem late, althought my 520ST is only a Rev. F. I wonder if there were earlier revisions in the wild or were there problems that lead to revisions A-D not making it to market?
I've thought about your idea further now and I really like the idea of "downgrading" back to the original 256k spec with the boot ROMs. The only thing I'm not sure about is the RAM - I wonder how this would have been configured considering 128k DRAM chips don't really seem to be a "thing". I shall have to keep digging for info. 🙂
@@ctrlaltrees I don't think that's a good idea... there'd be very little software that could run on it even with TOS in ROM.
Great video as always
Do you know of anywhere to purchase a mouse ball for an atari st mouse ive been looking for one for a year now (I purchased one without the ball) they dont seem to be a standard size like pc mice :(
I have a dead one, would be happy to send it on to you (or just the ball). Email me on rees@ctrl-alt-rees.com. 🙂
A computer with a nipple is not the worst thing to play with on Valtentine's day... :-D
Nice collection
Thanks!
Nice haul Rees. Well...you know...for Atari stuff anyway :D P
If anyone's interested, I have a 260ST for sale. Untested, because I don't have a PSU or Monitor for it. PCB looks clean, unmodified, TOS ROMs and 512kB RAM installed. German keyboard, will ship internationally.
Omg just found your channel 👍
Interesting (and rare) find! Didn't knew that many 260ST came with 512KB out of factory. Always thought that the badge clearly indicates the stock amount of memory! Also here in germany. ^^
11:15 Now this RAM extension looks very familiar. I got the same (from Rocke Computer) in my 520STM! Ok, some other mods, too!
flic.kr/p/2b4Bc5J 😲😂
Oh nice! Now that's a serious 520STM! Looks like you have some kind of stereo (well, joint mono) audio output mod there, I'm not sure what the other mods could be. 🤔
@@ctrlaltrees Yes, it's a stereo-mod with mono/stereo switch. Mono is still needed for most sampled sounds. The left switch (black lever) switches between TOS 1.0 and KAOS-TOS! But I have no idea anymore, what the RCA-jack on the right back-side is good for. Must be a sort of voltage output, 5V maybe. But for what reason? 🤔
flic.kr/p/2dVw8fL
Interesting, the 5V output would be useful for an external add-on like the UltraSatan.
I've never used KAOS TOS but I have heard of it, I should give it a try!
What an interesting video, I've not heard of the 260ST but the release Sounds as bad as something Commodore would do :)
Nah, it's not *that* bad... 😉
Awesome SUBBED yah
No Bargain ist slower then the 1040.
140 Euro? That´s anything but cheap!
I'm convinced Atari had a stockpile of original 520 cases and wanted to use them. Stock room guy #1: "Hey, we got a bunch of them 520 ST cases. What do we do with them?" Stock room guy #2: "Well, they re-designed the 520 shell to include an internal power supply and an internal floppy disk drive, so not sure those will work anymore." Stock room guy #1: "Well shucks, why don't we just half-it!" Stock room guy #2: "Uhh, half-it?" Stock room guy #1: "Sure! We half the RAM, then half the model number, and then we can re-use the case!" (2 weeks later...) VERY Important Atari people: "It is with great regards we salute you, Stock room guy #1, with this Atari medal of valor, for reducing waste and simultaneously increasing profits! Here is your Atari VCS and 27 copies of E.T.!" Stock room guy #1 "Umm, gee, thanks. I did need some new targets for skeet shooting practice..."
Ha! I certainly wouldn't put it past Atari at the time 🤣
?raid sozhun