ไม่สามารถเล่นวิดีโอนี้
ขออภัยในความไม่สะดวก
Learn about the Blood War in 'Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes'
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 16 ส.ค. 2024
- Purchase Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes here goo.gl/yFwsrA
An official digital toolset for Dungeons & Dragons fifth edition.
A very unique conflict compared to other franchises where demons and devils are essentially the same thing.
Abelhawk If you haven't already, read the fiendish codex 1 and 2. They're books published back in 3.5, each one focuses on either demons or devils, and it goes pretty deep into the Blood War and all sorts of other interesting tidbits of lore.
They are a great read, and while you may not be able to use their stat blocks for 5th edition, you can still definitely got a lot of inspiration.
Upon mention of the Styx the phase "Demon Pirates of the River Styx" leapt into my mind. It sounds like either a seriously tough high level adventure or the name of a great heavy metal song :-)
Why not both?
It makes me wonder if the other planes conspire to ensure that one side is never too strong in the conflict. Could be a possible campaign.
"Benevolent Lathander, what would you ask of us?"
"I need you to go to the nine hells and help the devils with something"
"...wat"
'Now if somebody were to foolishly build a gateway they could just walk through'
My players then
I'm excited for this book, honestly. Planar conflicts and information are sorely lacking in 5E thus far.
personally I like the idea that while devil's and demons are having this war over which type of evil will reign supreme, the yugoloths are just sitting in the middle stoking the fire and profiteering off of the war. Proving that the yugoloths are actually top dog.
Too be entirely fair, Yugo's (It is so hard not to call them Daemons. I might subdivide them into two factions in my game...) Are the physically weakest.
They aren't exactly keeping the war going either. It kind of ended, really. They do profit off it however.
3.14 Dragon yeah, I think of it as they are the weakest, so they have to keep the two fighting, just for survival.
Their origin is by far the best though. They were created by Devils so they could be used too circumvent the limits of law, the the Lolths just said "NAH MAN."
Absolutely perfect timing given one of the plot undercurrents of my new campaign involves the blood war ;)
"Yet." This teasing will be the death of me.
If only you knew that there's a conflict on the horizon.
Wow, this builds perfectly into the story I've created. Thanks D&D for such perfect timing. My trilogy is now complete haha.
they should have a D&D Beyond/harcopy combo deal. I'd like that.
This war is unique! 💯🙏🙌
Mr Mike, You rock out hard in the Key of D&D. I find your videos as entertaining as playing the game. Been on a forgotten realms crash course.
I wonder if in Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes, with the introduction of so much lore on the Blood War and high level demons and devils, would introduce a way to incorporate the Lords of the Nine Hells like Asmodeus or Belial and Fierna officially into one's campaign, just as Out of the Abyss did with the Demon Princes
It's an interesting cosmology, actually. The peace of the multiverse is dependent on the violence between these two: If one defeats the other, the remaining will sweep the cosmos; if both are destroyed, then would some other realm's races eventually decline into their own "blood war"? It's very Hobbes/Locke philosophical.
This just gave me an excellent idea for an epic level story arc for one of my players characters. She's playing a wizard who is chaotic neutral but tends to have to do evil things for the group. Having the demons start to lose the blood war would make for a nice story line where she has to find a solution or join there ranks herself possibly becoming an archedemon to restore balance
I ran a campaign to level 20 in which the final battle involved Orcus opening a gate onto a demi plane with the help of an Ancient Red Dragon. There was a LOT involved, but basically this demi plane was going to allow him easier access to the other realms, but the heroes had made a deal with some of the devils to come out and help them, and Asmodeus himself lent a grievous wound to Orcus (I think there was some lore about some of Asmodeus' power being in the wand of Orcus, or vice-versa). Needless to say this event of Asmodeus helping save the world has left a permanent mark on it.
I hope that Grung will be added to the roster for this book. My friend said she wanted Darklings, Merfolk and Firenewts, but I'm not sure how that would work
I love how the devils keep demons out of hell, with fire an brimstone which devils are immune to.
Devils only keep demons from layers beneeth the 1st, Avernus
I've said this before, but the Blood War is probably my favorite aspect of D&D lore. I know they want to avoid the 3.5e (and Pathfinder) system of releasing a ton of books every year, but I hope they eventually release a more focused book on fiends in the future. (Bonus points if there's lore and options for demon-worshiping races like drow and gnolls.}
Wow, I thought for sure the blood war would get its own book and this was the other outer planes. Looking forward to this. Hopefully there are a bunch of maps.
Lots of adventure possibilities for PCs involving the Blood Wars. For example, high level PCs could hire themselves out to either demons or devils as mercenaries. Or the PCs are hired by a mysterious patron to hunt for a magical device that can open a two-way portal gate to the Outer Planes.
One of my DM's asked what would it take for Bahamut and Tiamat to work together again. This is the answer.
The way that I see the D&D multiverse is simple.
There are angels.
There are devils.
And then there are thousands of times more demons, who would overwhelm the entirety of everything if not for the fact that they fight themselves a lot more than they fight anything else.
Thus why there are a mere seven hells to the infinite layers of the abyss.
Nine. There are Nine Layers of Hell in D&D.
Each one of the 9 hells is supposed to be infinite or nigh-infinite IIRC, while abyssal layers are fairly small.
In-universe, people aren't sure if the abyss has infinite layers
which means... everytime you gate in a demon or two and kill them... you are throwing off the Balance ever so slightly...
Except killing outsiders outside of their home plane just has them waking up on their home-plane with a hangover. It's part of why the blood-war can keep going. If you kill a devil outside of hell they go to hell.
There is also the constant influx of new souls that are in the process of becoming new demons and devils. As long as there are evil mortals, the infernal ranks will only keep growing.
I guess planescape is around the corner.
Sandy Santana I'm really unsure if I want it, because I want pre-faction war Planescape.
The Nameless One is awesome NPC material
I got cash money that says it's not.
Evil = Mike Mearls worship confirmed.
Asmodeus doesn't want to win the Blood War. At least, not for now. He wants to maintain his power and keep the devils against the demons rather than him. It's like he's waiting for something. Some theories suggest he's after an opportunity. Others say he's trying to regain a lost body. Who know's what his big plan is?
Wait didn’t Asmodeus end the Blood War when he ascended to godhood? I’ve seen multiple lore videos talking about the Blood War saying that.
Inquisitor Thomas That was the lore specific to 4th edition, which I'd say they're going to disregard/retcon.
The lore I read was that Asmodeus only paused it for a century or two.
He did, but it appears they are reconning the heck out of that seeing as Mike says there hasn't been an event that would shift the balance of power in that conflict. Granted, Asmodeus didn't conquer the Abyss, he merely removed it from his doorstep, but still.
Fortunately it's being retconned (I really hated 4th edition's lore, it was so... generic, the only good parts about it were Shadowfell and Feywild). There was however one major event that lead the Blood War to near pause and it was the sudden coming of Illithids.
He hurled the Abyss out of the Astral Sea and into the Elemental Chaos. Which slowed the Demons, but did not end the war. Orcus has enough followers he's a lesser deity, so Asmodeus' ascension isn't the end all.
I appreciate that having a human-centric campaign setting, like Forgotten Realms, makes it very easy for people to get started playing the game but some of the campaign settings that I love the most are ones where humans aren't even present or, if they are, they are definitely not the center of everything, such as Council of Wyrms and Planescape. On the plus side this a bit too obsessive focus on humans does give one a reason to create a homebrew campaign setting for those who are tired of it. I'm contemplating one where pure humans have been wiped out by an apocalyptic event.
who hurt you
? Uh..nobody. Why bother making such stupid comments online?
In my old pathfinder campaign we banished the tarrasque to the blood war
Whatever is coming, I hope Graz’zt and Thraxxia make appearances
Graz'zt Orcus and Demogorgon first, then the other princes.
-inserts Planescape:Torment’s Nameless One
Does the non-teleportation throughout the planes apply to even the higher ups like asmodeus, Mephistopheles, Glasya, etc?
What are the demons depicted in the first page of the blood war chapter? The bat looking ones.
What would happen if someone somehow managed to summon Asmodeus (and only Asmdeus)to the Abyss. Would the demons destroy him, and if so what would happen in the hells. Or would he stand victor in the fight, and then claim the Abyss.
So Asmodeus putting an end to the blood war by ascending as a god and placing the Abyss next to the Elemental Chaos has been retconned somehow I take it?
5e FR has this thing called the Second Sundering, which basically exists to undo most everything from 4e FR's Spellplague and surrounding events. Not exactly a retcon, as it all did happen and some changes remain. Asmodeus is still a god in the Realms, but I would assume the Abyss is back among the Outer Planes.
Gerrit Van Looy I'd say so. The entire cosmology in this edition is different to 4E.
How does modenkanen and his buddies keep close tabs on the blood war?
There is a part in the book that basically says that the blood war started because of one man...
Graz’zt
(Page 28 in case you’re wondering)
Wasn't the Blood war was already happening when he came to power?
Graz'zt is opposed to the blood war and wants to unite the lower planes?
"it's better for everyone" "except it's not"
So, is Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes going to contain Stat-Blocks for All Arch-Devils and some of the Demon-Princes (preferably ones not included in Out of the Abyss, such as Lolth)?
Something that was learned back when they made Deities and Demigods is that the moment you create a Stat Block for something, PCs will gang up and find a way to kill it. Some of these things aren't meant to be killable.
I disagree on this point. It may make the DM's job harder, but everything should be killable. It may shift your campaign but if it's really that important to you, you could always go against the book since y'know, everything in the books can be taken as suggestion. All the same your story doesn't even have to conform to the same lore if you don't want, tho it's easier to build around what's already there than to reskin or remake.
yeah, i agree, @meanderingNekomata. This tends to be my mindset as a DM, since many of my campaign are stories of great cosmic evils from the lower planes threatening the balance of the Material Plane. I tend to leave the way the players can resolve this conflict open to many different possibilities, but as you can assume, this often leads to the party trying to kill the whatever is threatening the world. hence the reason why i'd really like to have stat blocks for Demon Princes and Arch Devils within The Tome of Foes, since im sure there are other DMs out there that have similar campaigns.
How are Hell/the Abyss so much more powerful than the other planes put together, when the other sides would presumably have time to build up forces in case they actually did.
I personally prefer the idea that if one became dominant over the other, or if they somehow united, it's not the end of the multiverse, but it is going to be a really painful and bloody quagmire. The reason why adventurers would strive to stop them is because while the multiverse as a whole could survive or even defeat the assault of the lower planes, their particular homeworld would not, and that even if they other planes could defeat the lower planes, it would take centuries/millennia, meaning that non-immortal beings would face generation upon generation of endless, bloody war.
Even if one of the two factions won wouldn't Ao restore balance?
How do the NE Yugoloths come into play in this blood war though? I've only been able to read as much as online and let I still don't have a picture of where the Yugoloth is placed in this.
They play both sides of the War, profiting (in wealth, sure, but more importantly in influence) from both directions and assuring it never ends. Worst-case scenario is that one side does win--and then the 'loths would just come in and mop up the severely-weakened victors and claim all the Lower Planes for themselves. But keeping it going is immensely good for the yugoloths (and more fun), so it is in their best interest to never let it end.
They have their own schemes separate from the Blood War too, of course.
In terms of being a Warlock Patron in D&D 5 e is Molag Bal for the Elder Scrolls games a Fiend or a Great Old one? i'm asking because i've a player who wants to use him as a patron and neither of us is sure ho to classify the Lord of Schemes
Peter Calcutt So you're the DM and both you and the players think either pact could work? If that's the case I would suggest just using the pact that the player world enjoy the most. Reason a bit like the cleric domains: a deity can have many domains, but the PC only had the benefits of one.
I have no idea who the patron you are taking about is, but my advice still stands.
Shame this is not really a lore question type of channel because the question I've got is wasn't the wizard who is the focus of this wasn't he killed with the circle by vecna? just a thought.
What would happen if the conflict lead to the deaths of all the prime devils and demons though? If they mutually annihilated and there were none left to impose their will on the other?
I think only Bel, the Lord of Avernus, the first layer of Hell, is actively involved in the Blood War. Everyone else doesn't concern themselves with it. Demogorgon, Orcus and Graz'zt are busy fighting each other and Asmodeus is busy with his own plans.
Isn’t Asmodeus throwing the Blood War in order to keep his generals in line?
Assmodeus is a mysterious man
All things about him are shrouded in mystery
Also the devs cant bother ruining the mystery by honing an answer
Would a fiend warlock's patron be a demon or a devil? or could it be either?
jag519 Either. Demons and devils are both kinds of Fiends :P so a Fiend Patron could be a demon, devil, either, neither or even both
Or you could have a Yugoloth patron. Or maybe a Night Hag coven being a patron. Any would qualify as a Fiend Pact.
It would be most likely be a devil. Any warlock that has any brain in his or her head would not try to make a pact with a demon. They would easily kill you a week later for reasons beyond your understanding as keeping their pact for a decade.
Noximus Jamaicanus That is a good point. Devils are more willing to play the long game, trying to corrupt your soul through temptation. Demons are much more impulsive, and probably wouldn’t think far enough ahead to make pacts. Yugoloths would be slightly more impulsive than Devils, but if there was any monetary gain for them, they would make a pact. Hags on the other hand would be more like Devils: playing the long game trying to corrupt you, but also like Yugoloths trying to manipulate you for their gain.
Like other said, it would most likely be a devil - they're the lawful evil, contract building type. Demons are chaotic and unpredictable destructive forces.
If a powerful evil entity could make Pact Unifying Demons and Devils they could rule the multiverse.
Wouldn't happen though. Asmodeus is the king of Pacts, ain't nobody out Lawyering him.
why would that prevent them from making a deal they can split the multiverse into 4 quarters demons, devils, daemons, and the deal maker. also the creation of daemons prove the contrary that Asmodeus cannot be duped.
I'm not sure about this one chief... you really want me to believe that all the infinite armies of the celestial planes could not fight against the demons/devils??? I doubt it.
If they attack only one side, the other may claim the other's plane and become too strong
If you attack them both at once, they might actually ally and become too strong
It's a big risk either way.
Any Dawn War stuff?
I have a hard time with this part of the lore. I understand the value of highlighting law vs. chaos, but it feels forced and strange. It would make more sense if they were more of a combined evil faction, with different leaders vying for power and having their personalities represent the conflict between different kinds of evil. More like Chaos from old Warhammer really. But listening to Critical role, I love the elaborate contracts and can see how 'demons' wouldn't participate in that.
Was not the bloodwar not over according to fourth edition asmo' eats a god who looses hope and merges the abyss into the elemental choas.... i wonder how 5th edition will fix that mess.
Sandy Santana I'd say that 5E will just ignore it, it's already got a different cosmology.
The lovely super power called retcon
Check out the Sundering and the Brimstone Angels. Maybe only the latter.
Or what betheda calls it, Dragon Break!
CAN WE GET SOME DAMN DEPTH OF FIELD IN THESE VIDEOS?
For god's sake stop down that cinema lens.
Why not rerelease old AD&D modules? It seems that 5e is more or less like a greatest hits remastered collection and not commiting really to something new.
I love the general concept of the Blood War -- devils vs. demons is just plain cool -- but have never been a fan of the codified, actually-impacts-reality's-form nature of alignments in D&D. I like the idea of a struggle between evil and good (or things that are generally not evil), and the struggle between law and chaos -- but the nine alignments, with spells and deities attuned to each "box" alignment? Not so much. So, I usually just ignore the finer shades and focus on the broad strokes in any game I run. YMMV.
Fourth and fifth edition strays a little from the rigid alignment system, with spells and enchantments focusing more on monster types. As a fellow non-fan of set alignments, I like that change and hope it keeps going further. In my opinion alignments should represent your reputation: are you a _known_ warrior of good, evil, law, or chaos? That makes it have very defined effects as the player levels up and their story spreads, but doesn't do this lame stuff like "spells that only hurt evil people" and "weapons good people can't equip".
As for the alignments of planes.. eh. I can kind of understand it since each afterlife would hold like-minded people and the elemental planes (or whatever is left of them) lets me take a break from the alignment themes.
There are no longer spells that use alignments, a lawful good wizard can still cast summon greater demon, or gate in juiblex or something. It won't affect a thing
Tom Cadorette I
Wait, didn't Asmodeus "win" the Blood War by putting the Abyss at the Elemental Chaos? Don't get me wrong, Planescape (AD&D) was the BEST content I've ever played or DMd in my entire D&D life, though it turned to crap in the following editions, not to mention that the last Manual of the Planes stated that Asmodeus absorbed part of Mystra's power (Azuth) and went into godhood. So, what are we getting with the new version of the Blood War? Fiends will be divided yet again into two and the war will continue thru the Elemental Chaos now?
I miss the old school version of that =/
He didn't win the Blood War when he hurled the Abyss into the Elemental Chaos, he merely slowed them down.
maybe if the narrator tell a storyt and not just explained like in the book
His eyes are so green...
Love the story but the alignment counting just kills the potential effect. So say all the CE and LE all combine. I can’t see the neutral alignments being okay with that and they have been doing nothing expending no resources all this time. The 4 non evil neutrals almost certainly now have a reason to act the only one they have to not be forced to be anything but neutral. The story works and I like to see how you can make this story work and not deal with this clear and obvious issue. I wish I had cash to buy it to see it.
Yet...
JRR Tolkien and Robert Howard would tell us this isn't fantasy fiction, its just pseudo-christianity.
One of the lamest ideas in the history of D&D. We totally ignore the entire Blood War concept to our great delight and enjoyment. Much more fun to just have a massive Underworld/Infernus populated by all the baddies. After all the division of devils and demons into two types of entities was arbitrary in the first place. So we just mash them together, along with Hades, Gehenna, etc., and have the Infernal realms connect and mingle. There are still rivalries and power struggles, but the big war is between good and evil for souls with neutrality intervening upon occasion.
Hello there, Graz'zt.