It Took MONTHS to Solve This WiFi Problem but I DID! (maybe... check pinned comment)
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 1 พ.ค. 2024
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My family has been hounding me to figure out an audio issue that's ruining our movie nights. Problem is, it's really a Wi-Fi issue, and diagnosing it - even with cool Wi-Spy tools from MetaGeek - could be quite the rabbithole...
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1:40 My theory
3:02 It's not that easy
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12:25 PROBLEM FOUND
15:05 Outro - วิทยาศาสตร์และเทคโนโลยี
Update: a few day later the crackling audio issue came back. I disabled the nearby light switches and we were trouble-free for a couple of days. Diagnosis weird (zwave devices should NOT interfere with 5GHz)
The following day it came back again even with the switches disabled.... Might need to investigate further... Argh - LS
first
second
U need 6ghz or 7ghz its available today
answer is your house is haunted
@@Zomeone bruh i can even afford 5ghz
As a professional audio repair Tech for the last 45 years I can tell you there's a very simple cure for wireless speaker problems. Wired speakers.
you dont say
Ikr. If you already gone through the trouble of wiring the speakers for energy, why not also wire them for data.
Same for wired switches, can get smart stuff that communicates by wire. Just because tech can be wireless doesn't mean it all should be.
Lol this is exactly what I was thinking the whole time. With all the wiring Linus got done I would expect him to have thought of wiring his living room for wired speakers. Literally better.
Yep. I work in school tech support. Pretty much all of our teacher stations are connected to the projector or SMART interactive panel via HDMI or VGA. We have a few edge cases that use a wireless video solution. In those cases, we have to specifically warn the teacher that it isn't guaranteed to work perfectly every single time.
Interesting how Linus' solution was "replace 100 switches" and not "hardwire 6 speakers"
Yes this is stupidity and wireless audio has came a long way but is not all that gteat
I think he's having more issues than just the speakers. Sounds like the wifi is also dropping connections randomly causing slowness. The speakers are just very obvious when it happens due to the fact that audio cannot be resent in time.
He might be thinking long term. Today its the speakers, tomorrow it might be something else. As long as the 100 switches are there, problems gonna arise. Sure he could start a wired life, but its a tech channel sooo...
The switches create issues for all wifi devices, it's just more glaring on the speakers
Honestly I love how all these videos of “smart” homes only prove how dumb and silly it is. I do get it that Linus is always on the bleeding edge of technology and thus why he is into such devices being installed in the house, but mostly for us regular folks it shows how much better off and hassle-free we are with simple installs, avoiding wireless, running wires, and no potentially privacy invading devices. “Dumb” houses are less dumb. Imo
i love how defeated linus looks when ever his kids dont understand or care how much time, effort, and money he spends to make their lives 2% more convenient.
it's funny when it comes to the theater room
they are tiny kids, what do you expect, lol? To them mommy and daddy exist to solve problems, How, who cares?
@wrongturnVfor you're getting a bit worked up man. Back up and fucking chill.
Sure… so much time and money he spends. If only he didn’t care for that he could be a millionaire before 35 and able to retire if he wants.
(Not saying it’s undeserved, just saying for him this is work)
More like 1%
There is always something to be said about the strategy:
“If it doesn’t have to move around, WIRE IT.”
I'm still baffled that this wasn't their solution. "We have a wireless interference problem with these devices. Wiring them solves it and reduces interference for other devices. So let's go probe our light switches."
Especially if you have a busy household, wire as much devices as you can to keep channels clear for when it’s needed.
@@saladgreens912 I think one of the issues is that a lot of speakers/subwoofers are wireless these days and simply can't be wired up even if you wanted to.
@@Martinspire no not at all. Well yes in the soundbar realm of things its all wireless but he can more then afford to wire and run either recicers or little amps for the auxiliary spaces he is using them wireless sonya
@@saladgreens912 Yeah especially as he had the whoile house re-modelled before he moved in. And he has a home server, also didn't he spec 10Gbps ethernet?
Imagine being Linus's neighbour, bro is probably using up every wifi channel on 2.4/5/6ghz.
Lmao
Yeah poor neighbour
@@I_killed_that_beard_guy neighpoor?
5 and 6 GHz aren't going to reach the neighbours.
He's probably also secretly buried a fibre cable under your garden too.
They should come up with some kind of a device that encapsulates the wifi signal into an isolated conduit that can be routed freely to its destination without producing or suffering from interference. Sort of like a very long wifi antenna. Certain metals like copper would have desireable properties for this purpose. Might allow even higher speeds and sound quality than the 2.4/5GHz band already does.
This took me too long to understand
Isnt that just a wire?
@@nicentix yes
@@nicentix wooosh
You could get a patent for this amazing old tech.
I worked at a IT distributor back in 2008. We had a Metageek analyzer and found this really powerful & narrow spike right in our channel. Eventually we found it was an alarm system in a car parked outside!
Fun fact. When Linus wraps the antenna and goes looking for the device is the same principle as what amateur radio does call a fox hunt. A radio will be set up to act as a beacon and then radio operators play a scavenger hunt for it.
They also catch unlicenced users this way
Yeah! Fox hunt is a really fun activity and, where I live, the only person that needs a license is the one operating/setting up those foxes.
One thing that is not mentioned is that don't do this on transmission antennas in hopes to get a stronger wifi signal and range. There are phase/anti-phase considerations in their waveguides and so blindly DIY-making transmission antennas "directional" can actually reduce their performance further. Linus used the antennas for reception so its was not problematic for him.
Unidirectional antennas that are sold have correct antenna distances from the reflectors so they do not have these problems. Heck 2ghz and 5ghz unidirectional antennas would have different distance requirements so that also has to be looked into when buying.
@@egustafson can't catch you if all you do is listen LOL
@@MagnaRyuuDesigns yes I should have been more clear. Actively transmitting without a licence.
Must be nice for Linus; anytime there's a tech issue at home, it's a "really neat idea for a video!" And he can get his team to research for him to find the answer 😂
Sort of like how the merchandise could be just things he wanted for himself but had to order 1000 of them.
@@craftminer3254 like screwdriver?
To be fair to Linus, it seems like he actually did most of the troubleshooting himself. The team just did the research afterwards haha
@@BonJoviBeatlesLedZep Not trying to bash him - my comment isn't completely serious.
But even still; do we have any info to back up what you're saying?
Just hope Linus isn't surrounded by sycophants.
@@mops515 He typically talks about this kind of stuff on the WAN show
Something that we've always said in the communications industry, "Wireless communications are unreliable at best"... I know Linus is using his house as a tech showcase to demonstrate issues like this, but the recommendation for the rest of us is always go with wired, if possible/practical to do so. Wireless may be "easier", but eventually you'll run into crazy issues like those in the video and those mentioned by others in the comments.
I'm working on the low end of a team opening a .5 billion dollar manufacturering project. They went wired for everything BUT wifi. If that tells you anything.
This absolutely. Everything works 'automagically' until it doesn't, and then you're fucked, especially with the closed-box-design of some of these things, like Linus being annoyed at not being able to set a channel for a wireless device.
I have a mostly dumb house and even so, i have a stupid issue with the cheap RGB controller i have using the same codes for some buttons as my audio optical switcher remote which is also IR. I have to cover the light sensor with by body when the lights are on and i want to switch audio. Otherwise i switch the colors too. -.-
I absolutely am not surprised at all that all of this 'high tech' is also 'high maintenance'. Most of the smart house solutions use a SINGLE solution exactly for this reason, and then just vet extra equipment they want in.
TELL ME ABOUT IT!!! my fucking wifi box right next to my computer? drops packets and lags. why? it thinks it needs to connect to people on the other side of the fucking block!
this is why i was skeptical when people stated switching to wifi...
The only source of interference for a wired connection are rats, not really but you get the point
Linus and family sitting down to a family dinner discussing day, "Well that sounds like a fun day kids. You know what else is fun? This segue, to this dinner's sponsor..." ;-) -Daven
Hello! Electrical engineer and radio enthusiast here. One thing I will mention while DFing (Direction finding) Is you really have to look at what you are pointing your antenna at. A good example was in Linus' basement. When he had it pointed towards the pump control and stepped back, the metal sheet behind the pumps and pipes *could* act as a reflector for signals. Same for large metal doors, or even worse with Christmas ornaments. Why those? They are usually glass balls with a thin metalic paint, which could act essentially like a spherical mirror for signals.
Yep to all of this
i was thinking the same. what if his laptop he was testing this on was still on the 5Ghz network, and all he measured was just reflections of the laptop
foil balloons too!!
No, they couldn't - 5ghz wave has about 60mm wavelenght so 30mm is enough (half wavelenght) to pass by and discard it. It can reflect from enywhere basically even from different room.
@@mateuszkut4946 conductive material
FYI for anyone interested in those SDR dongles, the simple 15$ ones DO NOT operate in any Wifi band. Make sure to shop around if that's your use case.
Are there any that are reasonably priced?
@@kuro68000 there are hackrf clones that are relatively cheap but their performance kinda sucks
If you combine it with some software called "hackrf_sweep_spectrum_analyser" it's very powerful
Edit: there is also a program called "sparrow wifi" and it combines the wifi name and channel scanning of your wifi card and the hackrf for spectrum analysis. Acts very similar to what's in the video.
Any way to find a clone worth having? Or is it not worth it if i don't want to spend lots?
@@jameslangridge8849 I bought mine off aliexpress (ALWAYS USE PAYPAL) they're all pretty much the same, if you think the portapack looks interesting just buy one of the pre built ones. They aren't that much more and having the screen makes it viable as a standalone portable device.
I love how this series is basically just a long explainer of why more tech =/= easier life
≠ (your welcome)
This video is exactly why I recently ran CAT 6 through my entire house and installed a 24 port switch. I try to wire every single thing I can.
Yeah, but you don't have a youtube channel that pays for all of this in your house. It's just stupid, why not just use some wires?
what I learned from this video: Do not stuff your entire house full of wireles devices. Use cables. It may save you a lot of stress in the long run.
Of course it is more work to put the cables in, but I see that as a price I am willing to pay.
Especially when they had a load of renovations, and put other cables in anyway. Heck much of it is in cabinets etc anyway.
Or just simply dont smartify the heck out of your home. Im open to new tech but it just feels wrong to me to basically hand off control over your entire home to a cloud (ik linus is local but still feels weird).
Seems more like the lesson is "don't use wireless sound systems because any interference will result in crappy audio output". For most other wireless applications, a little interference makes no practical difference because it'll just re-transmit.
As a sysadmin I have inner hatred for wireless-only stationary devices. If I bolt it down and have to power it, let me cable it.
We were installing some smart shutters the other day and they had wifi only... It's not even like a NIC would increase the costs that much... And it introduces so many issues and worst of all - has cavles with power running there anyway and requires professional installation. I get it with a doorbell camera but something you need professional to install?
@@VanBourner It's more annoying here in Australia because any fixed wiring can only legally be done by an licensed electrician, even network cabling must be done by a registered data cabler. So I will sometimes opt to use Wi-Fi to save a few hundred $$$ just to move my computer from one side of the room to the other.
How can it be Z-wave? They transmit from 800-900 MHz. The only way to reconcile that would be the harmonic frequencies! When you build your RF anechoic chamber, you should put one of your switches in there to see what kind of harmonics the transmitter gives off.
That what I was thinking, there is not a chance that it could be Z-wave interfering with the speakers 5GHz signal.
I don't think they had their radio set up properly or something. They also recommended a $20 radio that only covers up to 1.75ghz for diagnosing wifi issues...
They dont always get it right the first time. I'm sure there will be a part 2 to this video. 🤣
That would be like the 6th harmonic. Usually its the first or second harmonic that can give issues if the antenna filtering is not quite right. And usually if those devices are certified those issues should not be present. Regardless most Jasco products which Linus mentioned seem to have an FCC label and you can probably find the EMC test reports on the website from the FCC if you fill in the product id there. Could it be possible something else which can transmit 5Ghz signals is acting on the z-wave network when the switches are activated? That seems way more likely honestly. Switch sends information over z-wave to an access point and the access point starts sending data over the network which actuates possible 5Ghz routers and such.
@@Tr1p93 I would be shocked if the z-wave put out any meaningful power at the 6th and 7th harmonics. They would have to be TRYING to cause interference at those frequency ranges.
Instead of foil, you could also use a Pringles tube or a baked bean tin (or can from any type of canned food) to make your antenna directional. It's called a "cantenna" and people used to use it to extend wifi and bluetooth range.
I think you need to take this a step further, as others have pointed out Z-Wave uses 900Mhz frequencies, and shouldn’t be touching the 5Ghz band at all. The next step should be to isolate the Z-wave and the speakers without changing anything else by turning off the Z-wave switches and other devices altogether, and see if the problem still manifests itself. If I were to do this, I’d start at the electrical panel disabling breakers for your lighting circuits, while ideally keeping everything else going. Should your speakers be on the same circuit as the Z-wave controlled switches in the room, switch them to being powered by a lithium power pack with a built in AC inverter. Then try out the speakers again, and see if the problem is cleared up. If the switches are performing to spec you should still encounter issues with the speakers; but if the issues get cleared up then either Jasco and/or Silicon Labs has some explaining to do.
hes posting updated comments pinned at the top. hes reported turning off all switches near his tv, and the issue still comes back. So you are probably correct that the 900mhz couldidnt interfere on its own, or at least should not. So i would assume there is simply a congestion of traffic going on. Its almost like going back to analog days haha. Were signal quality is becoming a big factor again, and one must spend time eliminating crosstalk of any kind
This is why static things like wall mounted speakers should be wired. There is no need to spam the wifi with too much devices even if they don't use the same channel.
Yes but in this case there is clearly enough bandwidth. If something jams the signal, better get bottom of the problem because depending on transmission power it might be illegal
Yup. This obsession with making everything wireless has gone too far. As an audio engineer I've avoided wireless as much as possible my entire career...
There are more reasons to use cables. Power usage for example, but also security could be a reason for some devices.
@@edfx Bandwidth isn't the problem usually. Too many wireless devices are asking for problems, not everything works like a cellphone.
Just a heads up LTT. The SDR you showed (which uses an RTL sdr chip) has a frequency limit under 2GHz - below the wifi frequencies. That said, you would require a down converter
Yea was about to say the same thing. These sdr, at least in my case, become totally deaf above ~1.5ghz
@@pierpaoloscian5926 Same thing , this comment should at least be pinned. Not every SDR is capable of receiving above 2G, especially the cheap one.
@@samwang1439 as Loz said, if you want to stay on the cheap side, you need a downcoverter. Even so, I would not take the cheap knockoff RTL2832U SDR shown in the video. For a few bucks more, I would take the original RTL-SDR V3, which is WAY better and (even if it doesn't matter in this application) is able to also receive HF frequencies natively, for those who are interested in shortwave listening (broadcast and ham radio)
There is probably a way to do this with a wifi adapter. Put it in the right mode with the right software.
@@drooplug it would require the wifi adapter to pass raw RF data which it would normally process. I'm not super into wifi adapters, but I have my doubts this would work.
Really cool to see Linus mention SDR. I got into radio scanning because my uncle was a ham and radio enthusiast. Got my first Radio Shack scanner (a PRO 97) about 20 years ago and got into listening to public safety and airband comms. Then a few years ago a buddy told me about the OTA tv tuners that were being hacked into SDR receivers by capturing the raw bitstream from the receiver. I built a cool touchscreen scanner with a Nexus 7 tablet and a USB OTG cable, and mag mount antenna base which I kept on my car. Those got so cheap that I built a couple of permanent receivers for all kinds of things: ACARS (a protocol airlines use to send messages to and from their dispatchers), ADS-B (a beacon aircraft send out with location information, basically how Flightaware 'tracks' aircraft), and the local alert network for severe weather (I live in Florida.) Most of them are running on Raspberry Pis, but I have a couple plugged into an old netbook running a Linux distro.
You should use the lab (when it is available) to investigate these kind of interference possibilities regarding the devices you review. For example you could set up a simple z-wave chain, and test it, inside the insulated chamber. I hope will see such contents in the near future! Keep up the good work!
Glad that you showed everyone that microwave oven does indeed interfere with wifi. Everybody thinks that they are isolated, but the wifi is so sensitive it still interfere significantly.
I had a wifi training once and we were playing around with these WiSpy's as well and there was one assignment which involved a microwave, it completely obliterated the wifi network up to a point where it even completely disappeared because there was so much noise.
Yep, isolation is never perfect. An access point will transmit at a maximum of 100mW, while a microwave oven can max out at 1000W, 10000x as much. Even leaking just 0.05% completely destroys any wifi signal
Modern Microwaves does not interfere. It is very much a problem dating years ago. Unless you have an old microwave ;)
@@traver1965 What exactly differs an old from a new one in its operating principle and why wouldn't it emit that amount of RF?
I used to telework for an IT support job, and I had to be on 50+ calls a day with my software phone.
When my wife would turn on the microwave, my call would start cutting out, or drop entirely. I added a network drop by my desk to fix it.
Like others have mentioned, i also find it strange that Z-Wave (~900MHz) can interfere with WiFi 5GHz... i know harmonics, but that would be the 6th harmonic, which is MUCH weaker than the fundamental frequency. I've got a bunch of Z-Wave and Zigbee devices as well, would be interesting to dive deeper into how they all interfere with each other.
They're also low power signals to start with, it does seem very odd.
You are right, the more I thought about this the less sense it makes for them to cause this interference.
The 6th harmonic doesn't even directly lay in any 5ghz frequency ranges. Z-Wave has a maximum power of -1dBm while the wifi can send with up to 20+dbm. (I didn't find any wisa specifications that menitoned transmission power, so I assume they just follow the wifi specifications in canade/the world)
I can't imagine z-wave being so poorly made that it interferes with basic wifi traffic.
I was thinking the same. But I'm not sure if in Europe ZigBee is on 900mhz as it is a reserved frequency for GSM. So maybe he is using eu modules?
@@tuttocrafting you probably mean z-wave not zigbee. But the 6th harmonic is so unbelievably weak it doesn’t matter.
At this point I think that if it is z-wave related at all it’s a power supply or control electronics triggered by the motion sensor (like an led light)
Since he has so many, could the 6th harmonic propagate and somehow amplify itself?
i think the kids aversion to the theatre rooms is probably a few things
1 distance i dont wanna go all that way.
2 ease of use/ seamless use if the tv is quicker/ easier to setup with what they want to watch
3 aversion to darkness (fear of dark alone esp in the younger one)
How could it interfere..? Zwave is about 950mhz, not 5ghz
Edit : after reading other's comments, i agree it's possibly the power supply inside your specific zwave switches that does it, or the RF motion detector, not zwave itself. This deserves a follow up
Hm harmonics, bad signal shaping? It's possible for ZWave to be guilty!
It's not like an SMPS runs anywhere near 5GHz either! Valid switching frequencies are in the range between 25 KHz and 450KHz. But you know, harmonics.
The cat needs it's own channel, it made lots of good points in this, batting at the foil is clearly the correct fix.
The cat DOES have its own channel, LinusCatTips
I thought you meant wifi channel lol.
BTE if you have a locator on your cat, it can legit cause issues with Wifi/GPS receptio. Bought a GPS tracker for my cat on aliexpress and waze on infotainment went nuts the other day we went to the vet. I kept switching which direction I was going etc. On the way back I turned it off and after a bit waze started working fine again.
For techies the problem solving is what makes all this fun. The rest of us are patiently gritting our teeth and very quietly, very smoothly, saying, "It's movie night, just plug the damned things in."
well if I paid for the wireless hifi speaker, i must use the wireless feature even if there is a wired option
the HT-A9s do NOT have the ability to connect to the hub with a wire. the only option is to chuck thousands of dollars of hifi sound system in the trash and get something else. Something else which probably wouldn't handle that use case as well ( speakers in all sorts of weird places and heights in a room with crazy geometry)
Thank you Anthony, for that wonderful Sponsor message at 1:12 . I always love seeing your ad/sponsor bits :) !!!
Really like how simply and clearly you explained things in this video. I'm a slight tech nerd and know how confusing the networking side can be. This video makes things informative, simple and fun!
If it's the z-wave devices that would be very odd, they operate in the 900mhz range so 5ghz noise would be quite odd. Maybe worth taking some of them into labs to do some isolated testing.
Might be harmonics of the fc… but if it goes to 5Ghz that’s pretty bad 🤣
908.42 in Canada, but he might be getting weird harmonics given that his house is literally alive with RF noise...
Agree on the 900mhz, I don't think he has found it... Keep hunting buddy.
Zigbee is in the 2.4 range
I was questioning the same thing as I watched the video. These really need to be tested in a cleaner environment, because it makes no sense for them to be in the 5ghz range.
On top of them working at sub-GHz, Z-Wave has a maximum output power of 0dBm or 1mW, there's no way that's the source of interference.
There is certainly something to be said for running ethernet cable or speaker wires to devices that will remain in a fixed location. Solves many wireless connectivity problems.
I wonder, if you didn't feel like running the cables, could you run some sort of power line signal like the Ethernet adapters do?
@@Pegases0 Powerline is very sensitive and has a lot of variables like the wiring of your house, I used powerline before and even something like turning the lights on can cut your bandwidth in half.
@@codname125 still have it and I'm struggling finding an alternative
@@samsunghandy use a WiFi mesh it worked wonders for me, I'm using Tenda Nova MW12, I was stuck with Powerline for a long time too because my room is 2 floors above the router.
Thanks to your problem, I now have a good guide on how to improve my network. Thank you Linus. I felt your pain too. Diagnosing a network is often exhausting, and absolutely frustrating at times lol.
Its why when people tell me they have issues with Wifi - I ask how things work when wired and if the problem goes away when hard wired.. WIFI is good, wifi can be really awesome.. but it will never beat a decent hardwire solution..
1:19 tens of thousands of people just learnt how segue is spelt and is in fact not the same as ‘Segway’ 😂
What I'm getting from this is: Never buy speakers that operate wirelessly on the 2.4 or 5ghz bands (unless they connect to your existing WiFi).
If they connect to your existing WiFi they'll eat up most of the bandwidth and if the z-wave is the cause, the interference issues will be the same. So that isn't a solution either.
Unlessthe wifi is crowded it should not be the issue, unless its doing stuff it shouldn't
The solution to any issues with wireless is always the same: don't use wireless if at all possible. Yes, that may mean drilling through walls, but the less stuff is on wireless spectrum, the better the stuff that's literally, and physically impossible, to put on a wired network will simply work much better.
Or have everything ELSE on ethernet. Depends on how much you stream on your phones tho. But yea, its idiotic to use wifi or bluetooth speakers as you already have to wire a power cable. Just wire a freaking data cable for better and more reliable sound, lol.
@4203105 Raw CD-quality PCM audio is under 2 megabits per second. It's nothing on a network
For this sort of interference you need a "real" spectrum analyzer with much faster update rate and a proper frontend, possibly a real time SA. What he could be seeing is insufficient frontend selectivity, meaning that an out-of-band but relatively powerful RF signal could be misinterpreted as being in-band. For Z-wave to interfere with 5 GHz wifi it would have to be its 6th harmonic, which is implausible.
One thing I find common in modern smart homes is broadcast storms resulting in poor WiFi performance. This issue comes from devices like network speakers that use broadcast/multicast for communication. The poor antennas become flooded with packets. WiFi vendors like Ubiquity allow you to limit packets per second on an interface basis or even just allow some devices to use this kind of traffic by MAC identity. This helps... a lot!
It's surprising it's Z-Wave as that's on a very different frequency from Wi-Fi (908.42 MHz in the US and Canada), which is kind of one of the big benefits of Z-Wave.
I believe you use Home Assistant, if you choose to heal your Z-Wave network from Z-Wave JS, it'll flood the Z-Wave network with heaps of traffic. That would be a good way to check if it does indeed cause interference on the speakers.
Well, a 908.42 MHz signal has a harmonic at 5.45 GHz, so there could be some interference there. I know harmonics should be much lower in power than the main frequency, but maybe there's some bad design in the switches.
Been using metageek analyzers since 2010, would blow your mind what other issues have popped up in the past. Unshielded early gen USB 3.0 connectors was a fun one, everytime someone plugged in a device near an AP it would destroy the 2.4 spectrum.
I cant get over how cute your whole family is, I hope you guys are happy for a long while yet
Some helpful information here on how wifi works and some of the issues you may get with interference, but … the video title specifically says ‘finally fixed’ … I was looking forward to finding out what the ZWave issue was and how it was sorted … unfortunately though we were left with a probable cause being the ZWave network but no fix and the kids are just having to put up with the issue. Feels like a part 1 with hopeful a part 2 coming that will wrap things up nicely 🤞🤞🤞
This is my company!! Well… one of my company’s subsidiaries! Super cool to see them featured on this channel 😊
We spent months tracking down bandwidth issues on our WiFi, the IT wireless people kept putting in more and more access points. Eventually, we called in an RF specialist who did a walk-through with a spectrum analyser. We found the 'PIR' movement sensors for the alarm system were the source of most of the interference. Many of those sensors use both infrared AND RADAR together, to avoid false detections. We had a building full of sensors whose RADAR was 2.4Ghz. We have since got our own Wi-Spy analyser. The central team bought an AirMagnet handheld tester. But we were also doing mm-wave RADAR work, so we had to find a replacement for the alarm sensors that wouldn't interfere with the mm-wave radar prototypes. 2.4Hz was such a mess we turned it off on our own WiFi. Unfortunately, now 5Ghz is a mess too. I imagine 60Ghz WiFi will follow the same downward trend. The problem with the ISM bands WiFi uses , is that they are a 'free for all' for devices.
60Ghz is basically line of sight, so probably won't be as bad.
@@Flimzes I guess he meant 6Ghz.
@@KnoppersPolizei No 802.11ay is 60Ghz band. We already have a couple devices using it - short point-to-point downloads from mobile platforms after it's been out collecting lots of sensor data. The engineers can remember to plug the power back in to charge the batteries, but plugging a LAN cable in too was too much bother :-)
Yep, all decent alarm PIRs will use IR & radiowave to avoid false alarms.
Side note - a mouse close to one looks like a person further away and WILL cause mystery alarms... 🐭
What we need is a wifi standard that's based off a central hub. It would communicate with all wireless devices in its radius and force them to pick individual lanes . . .
Oh wait, we already have that!!! but some special zebra devices don't want to communicate with it. SMH🤦♂
when even the devs dont know what's wrong, you know you have something good
As a dev, I disagree. A huge portion of my job is to figure out what unknown thing is causing an issue. Many, if not most, bugs are super easy to fix once you know the problem.
In other words, you're always seeing new unknowns.
Linus 'I am the edge case' Sebastian strikes again.
@@harbl99 Man's a living edge case at this point, his whole life scenario is one, his lifestyle is one, his damn job is one
@@astupidlylongnamethatstoolong well... him dropping things ...
As a dev with over 30 years of experience, much of which doing network plumbing, I fully endorse this comment.
Yes bugs are easy to fix when you "know the problem" but once you are doing low level networking you come to realize discovering the problem is the problem. At least Linus has a problem that reproduces with some regularity. I had to track one down recently that took thousands of attempts before it would reproduce. At least there we knew where the symptoms were triggered. When I finally found it, I realized there were 3 other customers experiencing completely different and unreproducible problems, and all had the same root cause but different timing.
My personal philosophy towards the emerging smart devices boom is that where possible, avoid wireless equipment and stick to the traditional wired communication. This is especially true when you have new buildings or major renovations to new buildings. The reason being that once you start added wireless devices, which work on the already congestion 2.4GHz and the now popular 5GHz, you will start getting these issues. So, rather than trying to solve them down the line, try to eliminate as much as possible beforehand.
Although Z-Wave switches are good, especially for installations which won't be completely refurbished, I don't think they were the best solution for Linus. Personally, as an RF Electrical and Electronis Eingeer who went down the rabbit hole of home automation installations, the tried and tested wired solution would have been a better solution for him. Granted there is a higher cost associated with it but in my opinion, the end result would have been better. These would still be smart switches, however the 'smart' data is transmitted over a contained medium, (twisted pair for e.g.) rather than wireless to reduce the RF interference and unnecessary traffic. This is simply my opinion.
Just now Linus made a vid that he has a strict no battery policy in connected devices, because once you've filled your home with hundreds of little gadgets, it's inevitable that most of the time will be spent with one or some of the devices failed, or with replacing their cells or charging each device up. And in this video he builds a remarkably terrible and flakey battery eliminator circuit for a wireless temperature sensor, with such a bad circuit design that it's virtually guaranteed to fail again.
Come to think of it, what one could accomplish with just a handful conductors! I think he may come around to this sort of idea yet.
@@SianaGearz Yes I saw that video and I wouldn't use that circuit even if my life depended on it. I am almost certain that he used that circuit on purpose for the sake of content, which isn't at all bad!
The premise of the video was that its relatively cheap to convert a battery powered device to a non-battery power and he did prove that. I'm sure if he were to do it for all the devices, he would probably find a different solution that something that janky.
The idea of all of these small battery powered gadgets are AMAZING for the majority of the people who are still renting spaces/apartments. So avoiding major works in their ''temporary home' is understandable. But spending so much money on renovations and then opting for wireless technology is something I don't understand. I think he did it for the sake of content, which has its own merit and much more applicable to the general public.
@@olivervassallo8115 I think his writer actually did a brainfart. At the end he suggests a diode chain (a "Linusproof" circuit) which is for sure more reliable. Even a single diode after the 3.3V LDO would probably do, i mean, for sure more voltage stability than a bloody voltage divider.
But i also have a feeling they trolled him on purpose with like what a SOT23-6 LDO. Who doesn't keep through-hole parts for prototyping? Adjustable versions of LDOs or ones for a lower voltage? Or like they're in a metropolitan area of two and a half million, what are the odds that there's no suitable store there?
Something I've noted with Wireless speakers, is that the constant data flow is likely a PING range to determine latency between each speaker. I had Yamaha speakers that were wireless for my house, and ended up with something similar. The only way I found to fix it was to limit the number of speakers connected to the base station. We ended up with 4 speakers instead of 12. Might be something of the same issue.
I love my wired speakers. They don't care about the rf interference
they do too, but 1/2W of Interference vs. 8-50W of Power does not do much :D
They can care a lot about all sorts of things, but those things mostly have to be right on top of a less-than-ideally-shielded wire. One issue I run into a lot is power supplies for small devices as part of my computer/AV set up. If they're too close to certain parts of the sound system (the lines into the mixer and from one speaker to another being the worst offenders) you get noise introduced to the signal (from 'mildy irritating' to 'catastrophic', depending). Technically the power supplies for larger devices would be worse, but they tend to both be better sheilded and not have space constraints forcing them close enough to be an issue.
@@laurencefraser as you're talking of a mixer, are you running symmetric cabling? (for example from a mixer with XLR or TRS outputs to an active speaker with XLR or TRS input) Everything else is highly sensitive to power lines, different ground potentials etc.
Woo, finally a topic I can weigh in on. I've been working on Wi-Fi weirdness for a particular device for my Job, where we've had our fair share of trouble with 5GHz.
Which Wi-Fi channels specifically are you seeing the Sound System use? Because some channels have a technology called DFS, which is intended to make a device switch the Wi-Fi channel or pause sending / lower the signal strength to avoid conflicts with Weather Radar stations. That tech can sometimes falsely trigger and force your sound devices to a different channel. This can for example be caused by out-of-spec devices that use too much sending power (or living next to an airport or other institution with such a weather radar, which will force your devices to either have to avoid the radar, or receive heavy interference if not avoiding it properly). It might make sense to analyze the actual signal strength (aka the height of the spikes) of your Zigbee- and other Smart-devices. It could also make sense to keep your home network or any other devices where you can control the channel out of that channel spectrum (channel 50-144), at least for a while, to see if that has any impact.
Otherwise I'd walk around with the frequency analyzer while the drops are happening. Because while your ZigBee devices are numerous and funky, I doubt that they are causing that much interference, since their data transmissions are usually pretty low-bandwidth (even with your "weird logs"). Finally, multiples of a specific frequency (so 10GHz or 2.5GHz) will also have an impact and you should measure the interference on those frequencies, too (at least the upper area of the 2.4GHz band can have a significant impact on 5GHz, depending on the device).
I live by a major international airport and DFS simply makes me cry. I understand it's purpose, I just wish implementation was better. I use Wifi 6e Eeros that don't give me much fine control. I also have a Meraki MR56 that I got from doing a webinar that handles my infrastructure (IOT) and PC wifi. That Meraki sees how often the Eeros run into DFS channels and try to move 30/40 devices on each node (6 nodes with 2.5g backhual). Right about that time all the Rokus and smart devices act up.
I have a combination of Zigbee and Z-wave devices too so I'm sure that adds to the chaos a major city next to a major international airport causes. I'm about to take out zwave and just keep Zigbee for the hue system and wifi for smart switches and everything else and see if that helps. I'm also seriously considering buying into Wi-Spy. That $1,250 doesn't seem so bad, it's the $700 annual renewal that kills me. I'm sure it's an awesome kit and probably worth it. Sad part is, I know it'd tell me what I already know... I'm boned because of all the random interference.
Yep, I suspect that the wireless controlled lighting is a symptom of the problem, not the cause of it. The very strong signal and hidden SSID is not the same as a few switches or sensors triggering.
5:33 the perfect ''that's what she said'' moment
not gonna lie it warms my heart seeing Hercules in the background of the TV. You have some awesome Dad kids and you don't even know how awesome he is
Linus's house is the ultimate testing ground for new products.
If only there was a technology where you could transfer audio information to a loudspeaker without WiFi, and without the speakers needing to be near a power point...
the r-word
What technology is this?? Hmmm
Imagine if some technology could transfer data non wirelessly
Years later and your videos still make me feel good idk thank you
This reminds me of the issues I had with a hifi amp and powerline adapters. Who'd've thought a '70s amp wouldn't like powerline running on different parts of the home power line (FYI - In the UK, so extra fun due to the ring main...)
It might help if you switched the HT-A9 wireless mode from "Sound Quality" to "Connection". You had it set to "Sound Quality" in this video. I believe setting the "RF Channel" setting to off also stops it from using the DFS channels, so it does actually constrain which channels it will randomly jump to, to some extent at least.
Kids response is exactly the response most IT workers get from clients when they say they have a work around solution that may even be better 🤣
That made me remember the case where a old TV turned off the broadcast of a village for 18 months before it was found out
I had the fun of identifying a random headset cutting out problem at a contact centre. Turned out they'd picked bluetooth rather that DECT so everytime someone heated their dinner, calls would get dropped. 😂
This just gave me flashbacks, years ago I setup a wireless network for a manufacturing company, I knew that their machinary would cause issues so I placed the routers and AP's in locations that would not be affected, I got called time and time again with complaints that the wifi was dropping.
I took a weeks leave from my job to troubleshoot the issue, when I saw you with the microwave I nearly broke down with laughter.
the wifi went down when everyone was warming there lunch :/ I never took that into account when I designed the network, it feels so obvious now but still. this is A/B days
Everytime I watch this channel I learn of tools and software that's extremely useful. And data of course.
One thing that I have done in the past when diagnosing this kind of issue, is to relegate certain device families to specfic SSIDs. I often will take devices like that and place them on a channel locked SSID often in the low band of 2.4, I then remove that same channel from my multi-purpose SSIDs. This ensures that they only transmit on that one channel and not cause other issues. You can often lump all devices that simply send commands on to one SSID like this. I dont recommend this approach for anything that has a constant stream as it normally give you sub-optimal performance. Just moving the devices fully out of the 5ghz space and by giving them their own channel to be noisy on can really help. Obvious issues with this approach is you need wireless hardware capable of multiple SSIDs and with channel selection per SSID.
The further approach to keep chatter down on your network would be to silo these devices onto their own VLAN and then only allow traffic from your primary VLAN to open communication. That way they are can chat with each other as much as they like without muddying up your primary traffic. The one thing that never works quite right here is anything that relies on Bonjour as it has a hard time when it cant initiate traffic.
I love that you have issues almost no one else on the planet has. Its freaking halarious.
Wait a second... Isn't z-wave on ~900 MHz? How the hell can it interfere at 5 GHz?
It is on 908.42Mhz in the US and 868.42Mhz in Europe so I'm also confused by how this could be causing interference at 5Ghz. That was one of the reason I try to use Z-Wave devices when I can. It was suppose to be one less then to worry about.
Agree
This is what confuses me too
RF person here: Likely the output filtering is nonexistent. Transmitters tend to generate harmonics, meaning they also transmit on integer multiples of the desired frequency. We add filters to prevent harmonics from reaching the antenna, but they costs money, so there is opportunity for someone to rip it out, get a bonus, and market an illegal product - usually AFTER the product has been validated. As with the spying doorbell, the profit in doing so in the consumer market is greater than the fines. There are also other ways to make a product do this, they too involve cost cutting and not validating.
@@kkpdk I doubt it. 6th harmonic frequency of Z-Wave would be 5450MHz which is not used by 5GHz WiFi.
And unless those Z-Wave switches are Z-Wave LR their maximum output power is 0dBm and their duty cycle should be 0.1%.
They would need to be so damn illegal to cause such interference.
If you plug the power for the speaker anyway, why not to use wired connection in the first place?
I mean, wireless is cool but that's exactly what you get when you use a ton of "not very smart" devices in one place.
I had this problem back in 2009-ish with my Vizio TV with wireless speakers. they worked on 2.4ghz and when I used the microwave it made them hum. drove me insane! i feel your pain Linus
Best part of this video is Linus explaining using the detector and pointing out the unknown SSID and everything it is using and Hercules is just going on in the background....perfect Dad shot
Linus out of all people should know that wireless audio is not reliable and very good thing. You could've be better with some multi zone amp and hardwired everything, but i guess it's a matter of preference. Well at least you've thought us all something new today.
Just because it's bad doesn't mean someone shouldn't try it out and then find a fix. Maybe this is the push we need to make it just that bit better to overcome this (correct) stigma.
Thoughts and prayers?
Creating all the clutter in the living room is probably not worth it when you have the money to afford a wireless setup
@@BonJoviBeatlesLedZep there’s a solution called cable management, he already did most of the job on the rest of the house.
@@BonJoviBeatlesLedZep They did a load of renovations in the house, would've been ideal to lay cable all over the place. Wireless is all but inevitably a nuisance, especially with a load of different devices, and gets outdated. Personally I'm also a little wary of being bombarded constantly with an overload of wireless signals in my house, it probably does nothing but it seems iffy.
They possibly could've also powered some stuff with power over ethernet, meaning an even tidier outcome.
Wireless devices also create their own clutter, as speakers, sensors etc need to be powered, where it wouldn't be needed in a wired setup.
I put a heap of data cables in my (small) house when I renovated, but I still wish I put more in.
I remember when WiSpy was an affordable product. And then they massively jacked up the price. I mapped many offices and warehouses with them over 10 years ago.
Me too. The price for Wi-Fi trouble shooting tools has skyrocket the last many years. Ekahau, Metageek, Netscout are beyond the pricelevel for everyday Wi-Fi engineers. I think they fail to understand that the normal IT-Guy do not use these tools on a everyday basis. They focus on selling their products to Wi-Fi professionals. Those professionals are a very limited number. IT dudes wanting to use these tools are counted in millions but the cannot get these tools because they are insanely priced
I bought a USB Wi-Spy 1.0 over 15 years ago for about $100 Canadian (about $74 USD). It has been extremely useful when troubleshooting 2.4Ghz Wi-Fi problems, but it doesn't do 5GHz. So I went to buy a newer version but couldn't due to the MASSIVE price increases. The one Linus uses here is more than 5 times the price i previously paid for the original.
Wow damn. I hadn't looked at the prices for them since I last got one and man, that's crazy.
Looks like $500 for the WiSpy and from what it sounds like; you also have to buy the software too on-top of that to even be able to make use of the hardware. That's an insane price for a little USB dongle gadget.
Plus their software keeps crashing - I expect stable software for that price
I love that you have a super-thin bezel TV on a dark background that makes it look like it has a bezel from a 15 year old TV 😁
As a former RF tech and a current armature radio operator I have a few comments about interference between bands and devices. 1: Poor RF front ends can be overwhelmed by strong signals, even out of band signals. 2:Poor transmitters and PSU can create LOTS of wide band garbage RF. 3: Intermodulation and harmonics can create interference. 4: More power makes all these worse! 5:Any wire can be an antenna.
In this case I would eliminate the wireless speakers, even if I had to give up full surround. Reevaluate how many AP's are in the house and ch/power settings. Add ferrite beads to suspect wire runs and power connections.
RF is the intersection of hard core engineering and vodoo magic!
Love watching along the journey. With Linus walking around with a scanner and all this talk of crossing streams I thought we may be busting ghosts by the end of this
This is exactly why I put a lot of effort into limiting the number of wireless devices in my house. If something doesn't need to be screaming into the EM ether, then it doesn't. It keeps latency on my phone pretty low
I know some people despise wires but it's stuff like this that keeps me on the wired gang.
It is definitely a lot more work to cable manage though lol.
I love that the Sony speaker Linus chose to talk in front of was one that had been dropped. Likely by Linus himself.
I find this super fascinating for some reason. Could you guys do a comparison between Sonos speakers, HT-A9, and the Syng Cell Alpha on how their wireless protocols work? I’m also super curious about how Matter and Wifi 7 will improve or worsen some of this issues.
yeah seems like the simpler solution is to see if any other wireless speakers will work OR JUST RUN SOME GOD DAMN SPEAKER WIRES!
This is basically why you want to hardwire everything instead of praying that wireless keeps working. Fiber if you can, else good old copper will usually do the job, especially when shielded :)
smart home - stupid problems. this just made me realize that using cables for things is much better than i expected
Ok, I've been following LTT for almost 10 years and I've just learned that it's "segue to our sponsor" and not "segway to our sponsor". That's mind-blowing, but it also makes a lot of sense, since "segue" in Italian literally means "it follows" (even if pronounced slightly different).
I'm just shocked.
I wonder what Linus has to do to convince his children to "act" in a video like this. I would never be able to do this as a kid, they're absolute champs! Also great that they're never made to look foolish so looking back they don't cringe at their appearances
They have grown up with cameras floating around. Does make a difference...
I think his kids are REALLY well behaved. We only see the best moments I guess, but gosh are they polite and quiet.
they also get paid
@@bigbundle3223 I think that's entirely fair, but I don't know that to be true, I'll trust a random commenter because it makes enough sense
@@dougle03 yeah absolutely does, I'm sure they're familiar with it and way more comfortable than I would have been
Having had some dodgy wifi over the years, I moved every device to hardwired with the exception of mobiles and laptops. Now wifi is great, all through the house, and the desktops being wired with some simple cat5e cable makes them much nicer to use.
Extra bonus, unless it's changed very recently: Wired connections are just faster.
@@laurencefraser Wifi 6 can get up to 4,8 Gbit/s. So you can get faster with wired, but few people will and if you want to you need a chonky cable.
That segue was the equivalent to a rickroll.. I loved it.
Thanks for sharing this❗👍🤙
This reminds me of when I had an AP that didn't support DFS and hammering my WiFi could cause the WiiU gamepad to drop out as both were using channel 36.
License free spectrum is a PITA, they really needed to assign a frequency ONLY for WiFi use. For all the good that is being said of 6Ghz, I can't help thinking we'll just run into exactly the same problem. Fortunately WiFi 7 should help given it can use 5Ghz and 6Ghz at the same time, but then again that could just end up spamming both at the same time making the problem even worse.
As someone thats lived in anapartment in a high wifi traffic area, I feel your pain. Especially working from home. I've found long term use of turning off the routers auto-select works wonders. For a short time at least. Then its back to the ol' wifi-analizer channel-shuffle. #FirstWorldProblems
Seriously I live in a developing country and people don't it's wifi here that much.
I find in my neighbourhood all of the routers are on auto-select so as soon as someone introduces a new router, they all play dominoes and all fall over each other for a couple of days until everyone finds a free channel they can use or co-exist and everything stays stable and predictable. I've seen some wifi installations that never stabilise; they are constantly wifi hopping to achieve the best signal, but that causes a constant domino effect and nothing ever stays stable.
8:49 thats because microwaves operate around 2.4GHz. Its so fun to watch Linus hunt RFI! Its such a common problem now days especially for ham radio operators or anyone using lower frequencies so, a lot of us will have to hunt RFI.
"I don't want to" 🤣🤣 gotta love the kids response
I love how those "smart" home and wireless devices are just endless creating and resolving problems rather than just have few more wires
problem is every "smart" home devices dont talk to each other nicely. sometimes even between own brand.
If it's anything videos like these have taught me, it's to put as little "smart" devices in my home as possible lmao
Z-wave is supposed to be around 900mhz though, so I am not sure why you would see a 5ghz signal. It makes me think there may have been something wrong with the configuration for your search.
this would have been mentioned before, but in case it's not. $20 RioRand SDR radios (RTL SDR's) typically only do the frequency ranges of 25Mhz to 1.75Ghz and therefor too low in frequency to monitor 2.4 and 5.8Ghz. SDR's that can go up to wifi frequency are normally more expensive, upwards of $120.
I was looking for this reply. The RTL SDR is still GREAT (and super useful for things like garage remotes / lots of other wireless devices which operate at low frequencies), but you aren't going to be looking at the 2.4 Ghz band which most of our more powerful tech occupies.
@@JMMC1005 that's right, it's simply a TV dongle, and TV bands are not in the Ghz's, so no need to make them go that high. sure, there are SDR's that do, HackRF, pluto sdr and others, but they are not 20 Bucks! SDRplay goes to 2Ghz, but that's still not high enough to be of any use for what this video is about. yeah, lots of stuff to do lower. like you said 433Mhz stuff like garage remotes, weather stations, key fobs ect. lower again, monitor, DMR/P25 commercial traffic, HAM radio, CB radio, shortwave radio if it can got lower than 25Mhz.
That 1,6,11 diagram reminded me of the trouble I had with my Nintendo Wii. It would only reliably work on channel 1or 11. Even when I lived in a ranch house in the middle of nowhere and I had the only 2.4Ghz devices for miles.
The foil wrapped antenna assist reminded me of how I used to use a can-tenna to pirate library WiFi at 3am. You punch a hole in the bottom of a Pringles can that will fit a WiFi antenna, you line the can with aluminum foil and point it at a wireless access point. Doing this will let you establish a reliable connection at 2 to 3 times the nominal distance of the WiFi band you are using.
10:33 for kitty
I think this is just a way for Linus to keep making content off his home stuff! I joke obviously but I do indeed love the home tech stuff. It's my fav and always gets me excited to wanna buy stuff for mine.
Don't know Canadian tax policy, but I think that's exactly what he's doing. His house repairs are a business expense, and he can therefore write off those bills, or get the company to pay for them.
It always makes me feel old seeing Linus' son on video. I remember quite vividly the video where he built his first computer, when he was small enough to be carried around by Linus and snuck off during the shoot to terrorise Taran. It'll really hit me when Linus does his obligatory "WATER COOLING my son's FIRST CAR" video once he comes of age to drive.
Hercules is such a great movie. Wired speakers and normal switches have none of these problems. Great video. Cool SDR rig.
That segue was amazing
One of Z-Wave's big selling points is that it doesn't use wifi frequencies and thus shouldn't cause interference. And it's the main reason I chose Z-wave over Zigbee for many of my devices.
Was that always just a lie?
I’m guessing it’s the hub. It shouldn’t interfere
This is why I generally prefer wired versions of devices when feasible. Wireless versions tend to cost more, can cause interference, can be susceptible to interference, have higher latency, slower data speeds, and for battery-powered ones I have to worry about keeping them charged. I do have WiFi of course, but I mostly just use that for portable devices like smartphones, laptops, tablets, etc. My desktops, stationary devices like consoles and SmartTVs, etc I wire whenever possible.
Not even a fan of wireless controllers for consoles these days. Granted, I have my consoles right by my TV and my computer on a desk, I understand that some people connect their PCs/Consoles to a projector or something and sit on a couch, so a wired setup would not be feasible, but if I am sitting on a desk or in front of a TV just give me wired so I don't have to deal with latency, interference, and batteries.
Everytime someone buys a wireless PC keyboard for their desk (as opposed to couch etc): WHAT IS WRONG WITH THESE PEOPLE.
I think for them keyboard or indeed their desk PC devices is decoration rather than working tool.
Had a friend whose keyboard has to be docked for half an hour vertically if it ran out of juice. WHAT THE ACTUAL FUCK.
@6:00 actually those cheap RTL dongles (and I've had a few) top out at around 1.7ghz so you're not going to use them to diagnose issues on 5ghz or even 2.4ghz (not without a downconverter of some kind which will probably be more expensive than the dongle)