I hope the realignment knocks my house down…starting the video now. Let’s see… Edit: missed my house but I did have to go to that courthouse annex in Elizabeth for jury duty last summer
Why not tunnel the whole way with access down from current stations to the tunnel and change the whole Amtrak or private rail system to a maglev 400+ mph
@ What world are you living in? The law requires that you get the “market price” which is usually below the real world selling price, and you don’t get a choice of when, time to find a new house or any loving expenses. The government takes it and cuts you a check. That’s it.
Metuchen is pronounced like "touch". The Philadelphia re-route, known as the Frankford Cut-off, has LONG been planned. The PRR bought up at least some of the land for a cut-off ages ago, and you can still see traces of it in the property lines, not least of which being the fact that there aren't any residences along the route. I don't know how much is still owned by a successor entity (Amtrak), but it would certainly help! I very much doubt there would be any tears shed for any of the building in the way architecturally, except for the clock tower at 700 Erie Avenue, and (ironically) the taller Bachmann building at 1302 Erie. I had completely forgotten that Bachmann was there until you reminded me! I'm not sure that they still do any actual manufacturing there, though. As for the realignments north of Holmesburg, I think that you are missing something important-I-95 is right there for the taking. Here's how I would do it: Just North of Cottman Avenue, there is ample room for an additional pair of tracks to break off, curving gently to the East. Passing just South of Holmesburg station, they fly over the Southbound lanes of I-95 before re-joining the existing alignment (or running alongside/on top of it) roughly around Strahl Street. Then, at Linden Avenue, it would continue somewhat straighter, using the Southbound I-95 lanes again for a bit, returning closer to the existing RoW just East of Torresdale station. Then, re-using I-95 as necessary for a reverse curve back onto the alignment. Yes, you take out a tiny bit of Pennypack Park, but, eyeballing it, not a single building needs to be demolished (aside from maybe a shed or two). The curve at Croyden could probably be dealt with similarly through judicious use of I-95 just south of there to gain room for a reverse curve. At the very least, eliminating any residential takings should be feasible. Bristol might also be optimized a bit using a reverse curve to occupy a couple of MoW sidings on the NE side of the curve. Note-when I went to look at Hunter Lane on Google Street View to check on this, I couldn't see the sidings on the other side of the tracks. I DID get a surprise close encounter with a CSX Geep, though! Regarding the whole Iselin/Metuchen/Metropark mess, I'm in agreement that the best alternative would be just to tunnel under the whole thing. I would run a single long tunnel roughly 9.75 mIles/15.65 km from opposite Papaianni Park between the Edison Police Department and the International Cheese Exchange to just north of Rahway, emerging next to the giant Merck complex. Elizabeth could be best dealt with through another tunnel. This one would run from roughly Elmora Avenue in the South to Hayes Avenue in the North, right near Newark AIrport Station, running about 3.5 miles/6 km (give or take, depending on where exactly you want to come up on either end). This eliminates a choke point where the NEC goes from six tracks to four as it passes through Elizabeth, as well as a flyover on the North end that serves to provide access to some freight facilities. With some rearrangement of the PATH tracks south of Newark, it would be possible to have six tracks all the way from Trenton to Newark, aside from a short 1.75 mile stretch through New Brunswick. Of course, that still leaves the issue of only having four tracks through Harrison (once the planned upgrade goes through), but that's a relatively small matter.
@@BharadwajRamachandran Thanks! To clarify: Pennsylvania bypasses would be quad-track (unless six-track proves both necessary and feasible without any additional takings), NJ tunnels would be double-track, with existing tracks remaining in use for long distance, regional, and commuter trains. As much as reasonably possible would be expanded to six-track. In New Jersey, this would essentially mean Trenton to Newark aside from a short stretch in New Brunswick.
This is a fun idea for a new series! It's certainly an interesting concept to see how much more you could get out of existing ROWs for relatively little expense by just straightening a few curves here and there, especially in the case where it only requires minor adjustments as discussed at 4:23, which seems like a bit of a no-brainer to me! An approach like this definitely has cost advantages when compared to a new high speed line as it doesn't require an entirely new right of way, however it would also be immensely disruptive during the construction phase which is also something to bear in mind!
This video brought back youthful memories of just absolutely wrecking many SimCities over with a fleet of bulldozers to reshape the spaces better. Sure, it's real life changing proposals, and you're talking about reshaping train lines, but it still made me think of those fond memories...
Actually 10.4 billion to save 25 minutes between NY and Philly might be worth it. It would be interesting to do a finance calculation on this. Speed = capacity...so if you make a NY-Philly route 36% faster...that is roughly 1.36x more revenue. Nice thing about this route though it also used for larger routes (say Boston to DC) so many would benefit. Boston to DC should be 6% faster. Given 700 million in revenue for the NEC...that alone might be at least +45m a year. Key is other bottlenecks...it won't help much to speed up this route if there are slow bridges/tunnel/station bottlenecks elsewhere (like Penn Station). Would love to see in your future videos estimates on how track speeds would improve revenue...there are a lot of sections out there that can pay for themselves.
@@nickmhcWhat economic productivity increase? From where? This doesn’t improve cargo movement at all. All it does is displace businesses, residents and schools. Congrats!
@afcgeo882 I don't think you understand the point of this video/content/discussion. I don't mean to be rude, just frank. These videos are a starting point for a discussion about true HSR. They provide an understanding of what doing so would entail and are well researched and designed. Lucid Stew does not have any power to bulldoze houses. But what he is doing is opening up a conversation about what it takes to achieve HSR train operations between city pairs that can strongly benefit. This is a community of individuals who is generally interested in seeing more/better train lines get built. But we are also wise enough to know that Stew himself can't knock down your favorite Dunkies.
@ And I disagree, and think this is a community of rail fanboys jizzing themselves without any concept of reality. The video shows what all of you fail to see: that building true high-speed infrastructure is impossible in the Northeast because it is already incredibly densely built up and because we live in a democracy where individual rights are preserved. Rights like private property are looked down upon by your kind and people insisting on them are harped upon by calling them “NIMBYS”, almost exclusively by people who don’t own any property. No, I think it’s actually you who doesn’t get it.
If this actually existed I would be able to commute to college from nyc in UNDER AN HOUR. My commute in high school by subway in the same borough also took me an hour for context
This is a fascinating concept for a series. I'd like to see the entire NEC done in sections, but then a big NEC recap with the combined cost and time savings for the entire DC to Boston route!
Another potential city pair HSR route could be San Jose - Sacramento, route of Amtrak's Capitol Corridor which had the sixth highest ridership in Amtrak's system this past fiscal year. That route has long term plans to be electrified and upgraded to speeds of up to 150 mph. So what would it take to go 186 mph (or potentially faster)? One part of the plan was to utilize the BNSF line that parallels Highway 4 between Richmond and Martinez to avoid the winding tracks along San Pablo Bay, and shift the freight traffic north of Martinez onto a new route that follows the former Sacramento Northern interurban line, a portion of which is used by the Western Railway Museum, that would allow increased passenger train frequencies on the current route.
@@EdwardM-t8p the 2nd Transbay Tube is in the long term plans for the whole Link21 project, though I’m not sure they’ve decided between BART or regional rail. If the latter is electrified then it would make sense to go that route, since I seriously doubt diesels would be let in such a long tunnel, let alone STC which I’d question its capacity capabilities, having just three tracks and six platforms (half the capacity of 4th and King) with Caltrain and HSR already there.
That route'd be my old backyard! CAHSR plans to link *Sacramento* and *Diridon* (eventually) via *Merced* ... But if the old Santa Fe Richmond Sub and *Muir* viaduct (Martinez) was good enough for the _Super Chief_ ... thing is that the Capital Corridor already hits 80mph through the *Bahia* cutoff now, and could do much more (theoretically). An actually very short connection between the old SP at *Martinez* and the old AT&SF makes more sense (to me). That connection would be at *Avon* (start of the old SP San Ramon Branch) and just 1 mile South to *Maltby* as the ATSF called it. The trackage exists there in the oil refinery or 1 mile of new trackage on the West Bank of Pacheco Slough could be built across or alongside the old garbage landfill. Yes, that turns Martinez station into a reversing terminal (confusing) but it would be capable of higher speeds. @californiatransportationco9825 ←call me!
I would love to see how the travel time between Chicago and Detroit (Amtrak Wolverine) would change. These are the two largest cities in the Midwest, and the corridor was the first to be upgraded to speeds up to 120 MPH outside of the NEC. ON top of that, most of the tracks are state-owned and could be electrified.
Thank you! The drive for the computer worked out nicely. I'll be looking at upgrading my intended RAM and the CPU because of the many superthanks. Computer purchase will be in a week or so, seeing if there is a dip in prices after post-Christmas buying is done. Unfortunately a GPU upgrade doesn't look to be in the cards. Prices on the next viable unit above the one I'm looking at went through the roof and the differential jumped from $400 to $600(which is more than the unit I'm looking at). The new computer should be adequate for at least a few years, regardless. My current one worked out ok for 4 years and was at a similar level compared to the market when I purchased it.
Awesome video and great idea for a series! To answer the question: totally worth it. But I think you'd need maybe one more tunnel in Elizabeth, that level of destruction would face too much opposition
now thats some good stuff there i also quite like the visual comparison in the curve radius shown near the start, really puts into perspective just how much more space you need at speed
$10.4B does seem too bad considering the incredible amount of demand passing between NYC & PHL when thinking about Acela, NE Regional & other Amtrak services, plus NJT & SEPTA. For context, it would be only ~3-4x what WSDOT spend on the 2 miles SR 99 tunnel under Downtown Seattle
just a bit over the 100 mile distance but San Diego to Los Angeles could be interesting for a no holds barred style vid. The rail isn't even fast, so I'd love to see how it would be as HSR.
Would love to see you do Boston-NYC soon, though I have no doubt it's on the list (maybe split into NYC-New Haven/New London and New Haven/New London-Boston?) Also, I would like to know how feasible you think a tunnel under Elizabeth would be. I assume based on its non-inclusion in this video that the answer is Not Very, but it seems like a next of a large majority of the destruction in this vid.
Love this new concept! It would matter to future me when I move to Harrisburg and still will want to go to NYC. Current train looks like 3 hours, would love to get it down to 2!
Thanks for this series, Lucid. In the real life (as in "outside of the US") countries that build HSR build actually high speed rail. Maybe not always 190 mph on all stretches, but certainly 155 mph! Obviously freeways have to move over/get rebuilt, because getting the trains up to actual high speed is the by far most important parameter to getting people to actually use them!
Great video. What would the feasibility of an Elizabeth tunnel be? Could this allow top speed to maintained albeit with less destruction. What about only having the two HSR tracks take the Metuchen tunnel cutoff while the existing tracks continue to follow the existing ROW for NJ Transit and Northeast Regional trains? Imagine high speed trains running at metro like frequencies from NYC to Philadelphia with a trip to Philly shorter than some areas of the outer boroughts.
Got it. It sounds like those five minutes would almost certainly be lost. The rest looks more feasible especially the segments that only target warehouses, chain stores and even vacant derelict structures.
Good to see my friend RoadrunnerfromRI get some love at the end there, and definitely some interesting ideas here overall. I know I've seen other ideas put forth by Alon Levy where it's mostly just curve straightening, grade separating junctions with the line (most obvious one being Hunter Interlocking where the Raritan Valley line joins the NEC), and speed up trackage in North Philly (including straightening out Frankford Junction and fixing up some of the tracks at Zoo Interlocking to allow for higher speeds), and of course CTC on the whole line, plus the Gateway Project (obviously), and it would achieve around the same time, so the tunnel under Metuchen and finding some way to make Elizabeth somewhat quick would just add to that potential speed.
Happening. I'm going to do a more realistic survey from L.A. to S.D. first. The No Holds Barred version will follow after some time for the first one to cool off.
I'm going to take a page out of the car-brain playbook. "Why are we only getting 25 mins faster, we should be build bigger tracks, bridges and tunnels to get even fast."
As a Metuchen (Meh-touch-en) resident I was kind of weirdly hoping Stew would level my hose in this scenario! I’ll miss watching all the fast trains fly by in this alternate universe.
I’d be for this. We could do everything you mentioned but keep the Elizabeth section as is. Or we could build a 2 track High Speed line between Philly and Newark. The current NEC would continue to be used by other Amtrak services as well as SEPTA and NJ Transit but the Acelas would move to the new line.
Both north and South approaches to the Philadelphia 30th station on the Northeast Corridor could be quickened by moving the station west to 40th Street and and renaming it Amtrak Philadelphia 40th Street Station. Place the 40th Street Stations platforms below grade and leasing air rights above them like New York Grand Central Terminal. An infill station on the SEPTA Market-Frankford Line would added at 40th Street. SEPTA service at the existing 30th station would be retained.
Amtrak took delivery of a whole new Acela fleet 3 years ago and they've just been sitting in a yard in Philadelphia ever since, not moving an inch. I love this idea that we're gonna build a true high speed route there when the current high speed fleet still runs on low-speed tracks and the new crown-jewel fleet is less useful than rusty old boxcars.
Massive realignments and land ownership changes,acquisitions would be required but the whole route form DC-BOS needs to be reworked. Newark, NYP and the hell gate section will be an issue. But if money was no object, tunnel directly to Stamford form Penn. much of the HSR NEC in Connecticut needs to rise on separate tracks above I95 leaving the historic alignment in places for MNR. Massive realignments are needed through New Rochelle too. Have fun with this one. I’d like to see your take. I do believe that a double main elevated above I95 here would alleviate significant damage with straightening the New Haven out. Also the higher grade may eliminate the need for some moveable bridges. Where practical the HSR depot would be above the existing New Haven Depots.
I live near the Twin Cities and MSP to Rochester has often been talked about. It would be a short and sweet route but could provide long lasting simple egress for the Twin Cities.
If you are looking for more city pairs under 100 miles look into the new Chicago to Rockford line that is being built by Metra. It should be opening in a few years with speed topping out at 80mph. Which is a shame, it doesn't need to be 200mph but a hundred is certainly doable with the current track alignment.
I would love to see a CAHSR minimal cost alternative that minimizes tunneling and only connects to regional rail terminal stations in LA and the Bay Area.
Phase 1 would follow Valley Link plans to traverse the Altamont pass and connect to Bart's Dublin/Pleasanton station, and then terminate at Metrolink's Palmdale station. Phase 2 would head south to S.D. via the High Desert Corridor and Brightline West's Cajon Pass.
Looking at Elizabeth is especially painful. 20 years ago most of the land was already cleared to replace the two tight curves with a single gentle one. But Amtrak gave up saying they’ll never have funding for this project and the land got developed.
A possibly I would suggest for Tuching NJ. If only the inner two track would go into the tunnel and the other two retain the existing alignment (reduced to 2 tracks), I could imagine a lot of money could be saved. NJT and the North East Regional retain the old alignment while Acela uses the new alignment. I’m glad you didn’t destroy the Philadelphia Zoo, I know people who visit the Zoo weekly.
Please do Olympia/Tacoma/Seattle. The sounder service is lovely… and slow…. And I can’t believe the sounder doesn’t connect Seattle and Olympia downtown.
More like two minutes, but I had to draw a line somewhere. If you wanted to get really carried away, wouldn't underground in a straight line be the fastest?
@@LucidStew Yeah, you have to draw a line somewhere, and it's fair enough to say you're really just adressing the geometry between North Philly and Newark. Considering how much time is lost through Philly--and it is a lot!--it would be interesting to look at potential alternatives. Say, from Chester to Tacony?
Metuchen Tunnel should be separate tunnels for fire safety purposes. You could also do a cut + cover (Deckelbauweise) there under Middlesex Ave - Lincoln Highway
Yes, it's worth because it would revolutionize ridership and travel preferences, mode shift, and add value to real estate in the vicinity of stations by orders of magnitude mote than the current value of those vicinities and the properties affected by the realignments. A competant realator and/or appraisor should be able to provide estimates, based on previous cases.
Hey, that mispronunciation isn't as bad as mine. Until I read the comments on this video I always thought it was spelled Metchuen and pronounced it accordingly.
My Dad saw Japan like that, pretty much leveled with a few smoke stacks. It was a little drastic way to get a high speed train but if its what you want...
Hey, that mispronunciation isn't as bad as mine. Until I read the comments on this video I always thought it was spelled Metchuen and pronounced it accordingly.
Some of these segments seem like they're good ideas regardless if the whole thing could reasonable be done. The segment at 2:00 for example removes derelict buildings and a couple charter schools but adds new infrastructure and reduces time. Seems like a win win for all parties. Even by the prison it would displace some individuals but if you can add new housing infrastructure as part of the overall package it could very well provide some reasonable compensation with limited costs.
Consider this alternative. I believe the only way to make high speed rail a viable alternative to car and plane is to build an exclusive rail network. Using freight rail network will always compromise passenger service. Use interstate highway as the right of way. Here is an example using PHL to NYC. Go underground from 30th Street Station across the river (bridge or tunnel whatever is cost effective) then above ground to Interstate 295. Then 295 to Interstate 95 where they intersect (near Florence NJ). Continue above ground to Elizabeth/Newark Airport. Then I95 to connect with ARC Tunnel to NYC. Details reviewed. Ultimately the line would go from PHL airport, 30th Street Station, Newark airport, NYC. New Trenton, Princeton and New Brunswick lines would feed 30th Street Station and Newark Airport. Bottom line? Use the interstate as right of way not freight train network.
This might be redundant but alternates to the LOSSAN corridor might be interesting given the need to reroute because of impending cliff failures between Dana Point and Del Mar
@@LucidStew Hopefully there will be events in the next year or two that can help the video (in whichever form it does take) have longevity as news comes out about the various projects on that rail corridor.
The state legislature would probably be opposed given that it would require state funds, also septa may lobby against it since it would directly interfere with it operations. Furthermore, the state would rather build the Commonwealth connector given that it’s already partially built.
Awesome video Stew! All those grade seperations, straighter right of ways and tunnels are impressive espically the Mutechen and Elizabeth portions of the right of way is like something the PRR could have fixed up but didnt. Also not sure if you want to do this type of video but Miami to Orlando with grade seperation right of way. Sure Brightline exists now but the right of way from Cocoa to Miami its all with grade crossings and trains have been constantly getting collisions with cars and recently a fire truck has been hit by a brightline train at Del lray Beach, FL. I hope Brightline considers Grade seperation but i dont know how much it would cost to that with them or the FRA?
Miami-Orlando is a little far, but Miami-Palm Beach is a pretty good fit for this. I have people asking me pretty regularly what it would take to get Brightline closer to HSR the whole way.
This makes me wonder where Northeast Maglev plan to build a new alignment that could do Washington to New York in an hour if you do all of this and still get an average speed of less then 125mph. I guess they must be avoiding the downtown stations in favor of the airports or something.
I would like to see this re-examined with the Class 8 track speed limit of 160 mph, and also what speed increases the current alignment would permit, as a more practical example. Word is they’re redoing the catenary in this segment of the NEC with constant tension gear, so speed increases may be on the cards eventually.
Same. LA to SD is actually hilariously not competitive with driving especially if you can time your drive to avoid the worst traffic. And that’s assuming you’re just going from downtown to downtown which is unlikely.
I would love to see you to a video on the Windsor to Quebec City route for a high speed train. Possibly even Chicago-Windsor-QC if you feel so inclined!
Definitively an interesting thought project and what is needed to upgrade it to proper high-speed in that section. However, there is one point of criticism: You depicted the upgraded NEC as a quad-tracked line throughout. This is fine for straightening out curves but has almost no purpose when new alignment has to be found because the existing ROW is too curvy. This is for two reasons: a) The original ROW also has regional stops with normal placement, particularly around Philly, and b) the new alignment is narrower than thus has to take out fewer buildings in the long run. The major challenge, of course, is trying to figure out how to integrate this with the existing corridor since the NEC follows local outside, express inside pattern and whether it should be changed into two pairs of separate lines side-by-side (which would mean rebuilding all the platforms for local trains and flyovers in places where the express tracks switch sides). A fitting comparison is the Rheintalbahn (the Karlsruhe-Offenburg section in particular) in Germany: Unlike most HSL in Germany, this one runs along an existing corridor and therefore acts as a second pair of tracks for this line, carrying all the express trains through that region. The notable exception is between Rastatt and Karlsruhe where the line ends right and a bypass is being built instead because it makes no sense at all to relocate the whole station just to speed up intercity trains which don't stop there anyway.
1:22 I propose rebuilding the zoo interlocking to support ease of access with Amtrak, currently septa and Amtrak are overlapping similar to how current Harold interlocking is at the moment. Could easily be done with cut and cover tunnels, only problem is convince Pennsylvania to fund it
I know you said 100 miles but I’d like to see the Capitol Corridor from Sacramento to San Jose. As a bonus if you can make a new depot in Oakland that connects with the BART lines that would be awesome.
Honestly, you can’t make an omelette without breaking a few eggs. This idea is really what the Biden Administration should’ve considered. I seriously think that for many of the proposed HSR pairings, massive re-engineering is going to be required.
I hope the realignment knocks my house down…starting the video now. Let’s see…
Edit: missed my house but I did have to go to that courthouse annex in Elizabeth for jury duty last summer
revenge!
@ I would gladly donate the $5 I got for hanging out all day toward this project
Someone’s looking forward to that eminent domain money.
@@empiricalandinquirical2435 plus I could force my friends to call me “your eminence.” Well I could try at least.
Man I fucked around with trains on TH-cam and now I watch every vid on day one.
No holds Barred vids are my fav. Makes me think of what it was like in the 50s and the interstate highway build out.
I think the interstate clearance in some cities was much worse. We're talking takings in the hundreds here, as opposed to thousands.
You got wayyy to excited about leveling that entire subdivision lol
# homes / # of old folkes x payout
Wow, another shoutout from Lucid Stew? Christmas miracles really do exist! Can’t wait to see how you wreck Rhode Island to get us HSR.
Got my fingers crossed on 100 views X 2 before 2025!
Here Here! Beautiful to see you get the recognition you deserve!
Why not tunnel the whole way with access down from current stations to the tunnel and change the whole Amtrak or private rail system to a maglev 400+ mph
Love this concept. Philadelphian here who would happily trade away a few AutoZones if it meant a 45 min trip to NY
And schools, small businesses and neighborhoods? Would you lose your home?
@@afcgeo882 Yes!
@@KoruGo Ok, go. Leave your home. Now. Let the government have it.
@@afcgeo882 sounds like a fun experience, as long as they fully imburse a new one of your choice whats the issue
@ What world are you living in? The law requires that you get the “market price” which is usually below the real world selling price, and you don’t get a choice of when, time to find a new house or any loving expenses. The government takes it and cuts you a check. That’s it.
Metuchen is pronounced like "touch".
The Philadelphia re-route, known as the Frankford Cut-off, has LONG been planned. The PRR bought up at least some of the land for a cut-off ages ago, and you can still see traces of it in the property lines, not least of which being the fact that there aren't any residences along the route. I don't know how much is still owned by a successor entity (Amtrak), but it would certainly help!
I very much doubt there would be any tears shed for any of the building in the way architecturally, except for the clock tower at 700 Erie Avenue, and (ironically) the taller Bachmann building at 1302 Erie. I had completely forgotten that Bachmann was there until you reminded me! I'm not sure that they still do any actual manufacturing there, though.
As for the realignments north of Holmesburg, I think that you are missing something important-I-95 is right there for the taking. Here's how I would do it:
Just North of Cottman Avenue, there is ample room for an additional pair of tracks to break off, curving gently to the East. Passing just South of Holmesburg station, they fly over the Southbound lanes of I-95 before re-joining the existing alignment (or running alongside/on top of it) roughly around Strahl Street.
Then, at Linden Avenue, it would continue somewhat straighter, using the Southbound I-95 lanes again for a bit, returning closer to the existing RoW just East of Torresdale station. Then, re-using I-95 as necessary for a reverse curve back onto the alignment.
Yes, you take out a tiny bit of Pennypack Park, but, eyeballing it, not a single building needs to be demolished (aside from maybe a shed or two).
The curve at Croyden could probably be dealt with similarly through judicious use of I-95 just south of there to gain room for a reverse curve. At the very least, eliminating any residential takings should be feasible.
Bristol might also be optimized a bit using a reverse curve to occupy a couple of MoW sidings on the NE side of the curve. Note-when I went to look at Hunter Lane on Google Street View to check on this, I couldn't see the sidings on the other side of the tracks. I DID get a surprise close encounter with a CSX Geep, though!
Regarding the whole Iselin/Metuchen/Metropark mess, I'm in agreement that the best alternative would be just to tunnel under the whole thing. I would run a single long tunnel roughly 9.75 mIles/15.65 km from opposite Papaianni Park between the Edison Police Department and the International Cheese Exchange to just north of Rahway, emerging next to the giant Merck complex.
Elizabeth could be best dealt with through another tunnel. This one would run from roughly Elmora Avenue in the South to Hayes Avenue in the North, right near Newark AIrport Station, running about 3.5 miles/6 km (give or take, depending on where exactly you want to come up on either end). This eliminates a choke point where the NEC goes from six tracks to four as it passes through Elizabeth, as well as a flyover on the North end that serves to provide access to some freight facilities. With some rearrangement of the PATH tracks south of Newark, it would be possible to have six tracks all the way from Trenton to Newark, aside from a short 1.75 mile stretch through New Brunswick. Of course, that still leaves the issue of only having four tracks through Harrison (once the planned upgrade goes through), but that's a relatively small matter.
This is a far better plan with a better understanding of the local area than the video tbh
@@BharadwajRamachandran Thanks!
To clarify: Pennsylvania bypasses would be quad-track (unless six-track proves both necessary and feasible without any additional takings), NJ tunnels would be double-track, with existing tracks remaining in use for long distance, regional, and commuter trains. As much as reasonably possible would be expanded to six-track. In New Jersey, this would essentially mean Trenton to Newark aside from a short stretch in New Brunswick.
DC to Philly next! Let's get the whole mainline up to true speed!
rip wilmington
This is a fun idea for a new series! It's certainly an interesting concept to see how much more you could get out of existing ROWs for relatively little expense by just straightening a few curves here and there, especially in the case where it only requires minor adjustments as discussed at 4:23, which seems like a bit of a no-brainer to me!
An approach like this definitely has cost advantages when compared to a new high speed line as it doesn't require an entirely new right of way, however it would also be immensely disruptive during the construction phase which is also something to bear in mind!
This video brought back youthful memories of just absolutely wrecking many SimCities over with a fleet of bulldozers to reshape the spaces better. Sure, it's real life changing proposals, and you're talking about reshaping train lines, but it still made me think of those fond memories...
I forgot to make the green areas a park.
Actually 10.4 billion to save 25 minutes between NY and Philly might be worth it. It would be interesting to do a finance calculation on this. Speed = capacity...so if you make a NY-Philly route 36% faster...that is roughly 1.36x more revenue. Nice thing about this route though it also used for larger routes (say Boston to DC) so many would benefit. Boston to DC should be 6% faster. Given 700 million in revenue for the NEC...that alone might be at least +45m a year. Key is other bottlenecks...it won't help much to speed up this route if there are slow bridges/tunnel/station bottlenecks elsewhere (like Penn Station). Would love to see in your future videos estimates on how track speeds would improve revenue...there are a lot of sections out there that can pay for themselves.
You’re missing the biggest one: economic productivity increase between the city pair
@@nickmhcWhat economic productivity increase? From where? This doesn’t improve cargo movement at all. All it does is displace businesses, residents and schools. Congrats!
@afcgeo882 I don't think you understand the point of this video/content/discussion. I don't mean to be rude, just frank. These videos are a starting point for a discussion about true HSR. They provide an understanding of what doing so would entail and are well researched and designed. Lucid Stew does not have any power to bulldoze houses. But what he is doing is opening up a conversation about what it takes to achieve HSR train operations between city pairs that can strongly benefit.
This is a community of individuals who is generally interested in seeing more/better train lines get built. But we are also wise enough to know that Stew himself can't knock down your favorite Dunkies.
@ And I disagree, and think this is a community of rail fanboys jizzing themselves without any concept of reality. The video shows what all of you fail to see: that building true high-speed infrastructure is impossible in the Northeast because it is already incredibly densely built up and because we live in a democracy where individual rights are preserved. Rights like private property are looked down upon by your kind and people insisting on them are harped upon by calling them “NIMBYS”, almost exclusively by people who don’t own any property.
No, I think it’s actually you who doesn’t get it.
@@afcgeo882 Eminent domain is a protected right of the state in the constitution. :)
Production value just keeps getting better! I love the swapping back and forth between the render and the actual terrain.
If this actually existed I would be able to commute to college from nyc in UNDER AN HOUR. My commute in high school by subway in the same borough also took me an hour for context
Really enjoyed this one! Not as expensive as I imagined.
The way I started cheering when I saw that the Lucid Stew uploaded 😭
Again, absolutely amazing visualisations!
This is a fascinating concept for a series. I'd like to see the entire NEC done in sections, but then a big NEC recap with the combined cost and time savings for the entire DC to Boston route!
Another potential city pair HSR route could be San Jose - Sacramento, route of Amtrak's Capitol Corridor which had the sixth highest ridership in Amtrak's system this past fiscal year. That route has long term plans to be electrified and upgraded to speeds of up to 150 mph. So what would it take to go 186 mph (or potentially faster)?
One part of the plan was to utilize the BNSF line that parallels Highway 4 between Richmond and Martinez to avoid the winding tracks along San Pablo Bay, and shift the freight traffic north of Martinez onto a new route that follows the former Sacramento Northern interurban line, a portion of which is used by the Western Railway Museum, that would allow increased passenger train frequencies on the current route.
Please let there be a branch to or an alternate route through San Francisco and a second trans-bay tube 🙏
@@EdwardM-t8p the 2nd Transbay Tube is in the long term plans for the whole Link21 project, though I’m not sure they’ve decided between BART or regional rail. If the latter is electrified then it would make sense to go that route, since I seriously doubt diesels would be let in such a long tunnel, let alone STC which I’d question its capacity capabilities, having just three tracks and six platforms (half the capacity of 4th and King) with Caltrain and HSR already there.
That route'd be my old backyard!
CAHSR plans to link *Sacramento* and *Diridon* (eventually) via *Merced* ... But if the old Santa Fe Richmond Sub and *Muir* viaduct (Martinez) was good enough for the _Super Chief_ ... thing is that the Capital Corridor already hits 80mph through the *Bahia* cutoff now, and could do much more (theoretically). An actually very short connection between the old SP at *Martinez* and the old AT&SF makes more sense (to me).
That connection would be at *Avon* (start of the old SP San Ramon Branch) and just 1 mile South to *Maltby* as the ATSF called it.
The trackage exists there in the oil refinery or 1 mile of new trackage on the West Bank of Pacheco Slough could be built across or alongside the old garbage landfill.
Yes, that turns Martinez station into a reversing terminal (confusing) but it would be capable of higher speeds.
@californiatransportationco9825 ←call me!
LETS GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO MY FAVORITE CORRIDOR
The research done here is impressive!
This is an amazing video series concept. Just subscribed as well!
Terrific job. Everything understood. I grew up in Bound Brook, NJ. Tue. Jan. 21, 2025, Missouri.
love the new video series keep up the good videos
I would love to see how the travel time between Chicago and Detroit (Amtrak Wolverine) would change. These are the two largest cities in the Midwest, and the corridor was the first to be upgraded to speeds up to 120 MPH outside of the NEC. ON top of that, most of the tracks are state-owned and could be electrified.
Thanks!
Thank you! The drive for the computer worked out nicely. I'll be looking at upgrading my intended RAM and the CPU because of the many superthanks. Computer purchase will be in a week or so, seeing if there is a dip in prices after post-Christmas buying is done. Unfortunately a GPU upgrade doesn't look to be in the cards. Prices on the next viable unit above the one I'm looking at went through the roof and the differential jumped from $400 to $600(which is more than the unit I'm looking at). The new computer should be adequate for at least a few years, regardless. My current one worked out ok for 4 years and was at a similar level compared to the market when I purchased it.
Awesome video and great idea for a series! To answer the question: totally worth it. But I think you'd need maybe one more tunnel in Elizabeth, that level of destruction would face too much opposition
now thats some good stuff there
i also quite like the visual comparison in the curve radius shown near the start, really puts into perspective just how much more space you need at speed
This level of destruction is unironically what they did when they built the freeways..
Probably more when the freeways were built.
@@LucidStew A LOT MORE!!!! This is only a pittance compared to what I-95 did just in one corner of Philadelphia.
$10.4B does seem too bad considering the incredible amount of demand passing between NYC & PHL when thinking about Acela, NE Regional & other Amtrak services, plus NJT & SEPTA. For context, it would be only ~3-4x what WSDOT spend on the 2 miles SR 99 tunnel under Downtown Seattle
just a bit over the 100 mile distance but San Diego to Los Angeles could be interesting for a no holds barred style vid. The rail isn't even fast, so I'd love to see how it would be as HSR.
This is so awesome
Would love to see you do Boston-NYC soon, though I have no doubt it's on the list (maybe split into NYC-New Haven/New London and New Haven/New London-Boston?)
Also, I would like to know how feasible you think a tunnel under Elizabeth would be. I assume based on its non-inclusion in this video that the answer is Not Very, but it seems like a next of a large majority of the destruction in this vid.
Love this new concept! It would matter to future me when I move to Harrisburg and still will want to go to NYC. Current train looks like 3 hours, would love to get it down to 2!
Thanks for this series, Lucid. In the real life (as in "outside of the US") countries that build HSR build actually high speed rail. Maybe not always 190 mph on all stretches, but certainly 155 mph!
Obviously freeways have to move over/get rebuilt, because getting the trains up to actual high speed is the by far most important parameter to getting people to actually use them!
This is excellent, this is what we needed
Great video. What would the feasibility of an Elizabeth tunnel be? Could this allow top speed to maintained albeit with less destruction. What about only having the two HSR tracks take the Metuchen tunnel cutoff while the existing tracks continue to follow the existing ROW for NJ Transit and Northeast Regional trains? Imagine high speed trains running at metro like frequencies from NYC to Philadelphia with a trip to Philly shorter than some areas of the outer boroughts.
Not great. There are a lot of undercrossings. You wouldn't be able to get back to ground level heading north until up by the airport.
Got it. It sounds like those five minutes would almost certainly be lost. The rest looks more feasible especially the segments that only target warehouses, chain stores and even vacant derelict structures.
Good to see my friend RoadrunnerfromRI get some love at the end there, and definitely some interesting ideas here overall. I know I've seen other ideas put forth by Alon Levy where it's mostly just curve straightening, grade separating junctions with the line (most obvious one being Hunter Interlocking where the Raritan Valley line joins the NEC), and speed up trackage in North Philly (including straightening out Frankford Junction and fixing up some of the tracks at Zoo Interlocking to allow for higher speeds), and of course CTC on the whole line, plus the Gateway Project (obviously), and it would achieve around the same time, so the tunnel under Metuchen and finding some way to make Elizabeth somewhat quick would just add to that potential speed.
More no holds barred segments please!
I loved this! Would love to see one in Cali!
L.A.-S.D. seems like a good fit
Love this concept! Hope you give more of the NEC the same treatment!
Best video yet
The people want high-speed rail, like the rest of the world, and this is what it'll take.
It’s over 100 miles, but be fun to see a video between Kansas City and St. Louis on the Missouri river runner With how windy it is
The editing has been kicked up ⬆️ great video!!
This is great, I would love to see this with the Surf Line
Happening. I'm going to do a more realistic survey from L.A. to S.D. first. The No Holds Barred version will follow after some time for the first one to cool off.
@LucidStew Awesome! Look forward to both.
I'm going to take a page out of the car-brain playbook.
"Why are we only getting 25 mins faster, we should be build bigger tracks, bridges and tunnels to get even fast."
This is the busiest rail corridor in not just America but the entire Western hemisphere! That is all that matters, the right thing is to just do!
Nice, another lucid stew episode just dropped!
As a Metuchen (Meh-touch-en) resident I was kind of weirdly hoping Stew would level my hose in this scenario! I’ll miss watching all the fast trains fly by in this alternate universe.
How close were you to being relocated?
@@LucidStew I'm approximately 0.3 miles south of the NEC. So realistically, I'm probably not in the path of your explosion graphic.
@ Bummer. Maybe next time! :)
Not bad if it actually can be done for the cost.
I’d be for this. We could do everything you mentioned but keep the Elizabeth section as is. Or we could build a 2 track High Speed line between Philly and Newark. The current NEC would continue to be used by other Amtrak services as well as SEPTA and NJ Transit but the Acelas would move to the new line.
Both north and South approaches to the Philadelphia 30th station on the Northeast Corridor could be quickened by moving the station west to 40th Street and and renaming it Amtrak Philadelphia 40th Street Station. Place the 40th Street Stations platforms below grade and leasing air rights above them like New York Grand Central Terminal. An infill station on the SEPTA Market-Frankford Line would added at 40th Street. SEPTA service at the existing 30th station would be retained.
Yeah, there's probably some solution that doesn't involve 30th St. With 30th, you're kind stuck.
If I had an unlimited budget and unrestricted use of eminent domain, the fun I would have!!!
Amtrak took delivery of a whole new Acela fleet 3 years ago and they've just been sitting in a yard in Philadelphia ever since, not moving an inch. I love this idea that we're gonna build a true high speed route there when the current high speed fleet still runs on low-speed tracks and the new crown-jewel fleet is less useful than rusty old boxcars.
Massive realignments and land ownership changes,acquisitions would be required but the whole route form DC-BOS needs to be reworked.
Newark, NYP and the hell gate section will be an issue.
But if money was no object, tunnel directly to Stamford form Penn.
much of the HSR NEC in Connecticut needs to rise on separate tracks above I95 leaving the historic alignment in
places for MNR.
Massive realignments are needed through New Rochelle too.
Have fun with this one. I’d like to see your take.
I do believe that a double main elevated above I95 here would alleviate significant damage with straightening the New Haven out. Also the higher grade may eliminate the need for some moveable bridges.
Where practical the HSR depot would be above the existing New Haven Depots.
I live near the Twin Cities and MSP to Rochester has often been talked about. It would be a short and sweet route but could provide long lasting simple egress for the Twin Cities.
If you are looking for more city pairs under 100 miles look into the new Chicago to Rockford line that is being built by Metra. It should be opening in a few years with speed topping out at 80mph. Which is a shame, it doesn't need to be 200mph but a hundred is certainly doable with the current track alignment.
I would love to see a CAHSR minimal cost alternative that minimizes tunneling and only connects to regional rail terminal stations in LA and the Bay Area.
Phase 1 would follow Valley Link plans to traverse the Altamont pass and connect to Bart's Dublin/Pleasanton station, and then terminate at Metrolink's Palmdale station.
Phase 2 would head south to S.D. via the High Desert Corridor and Brightline West's Cajon Pass.
Looking at Elizabeth is especially painful. 20 years ago most of the land was already cleared to replace the two tight curves with a single gentle one. But Amtrak gave up saying they’ll never have funding for this project and the land got developed.
10 billion would be cheap af. It'd never be that price.
$600 million/mile is fairly outrageous. I'm not sure why you think it would be significantly more.
A possibly I would suggest for Tuching NJ. If only the inner two track would go into the tunnel and the other two retain the existing alignment (reduced to 2 tracks), I could imagine a lot of money could be saved.
NJT and the North East Regional retain the old alignment while Acela uses the new alignment.
I’m glad you didn’t destroy the Philadelphia Zoo, I know people who visit the Zoo weekly.
Please do Olympia/Tacoma/Seattle.
The sounder service is lovely… and slow…. And I can’t believe the sounder doesn’t connect Seattle and Olympia downtown.
That's a good one.
Do I live anywhere near Philadelphia or NY? No
Did I watch this whole video? Yes
Tunneling under Metuchen to save a minute but not tunneling under Philly to save ten is definitely a choice.
More like two minutes, but I had to draw a line somewhere. If you wanted to get really carried away, wouldn't underground in a straight line be the fastest?
@@LucidStew DC-NY Airline when?
@@LucidStew Yeah, you have to draw a line somewhere, and it's fair enough to say you're really just adressing the geometry between North Philly and Newark. Considering how much time is lost through Philly--and it is a lot!--it would be interesting to look at potential alternatives. Say, from Chester to Tacony?
@@jonathanstensberg he's already looked at a bypass for expresses in another video on the Northeast Corridor.
Totally worth the investment. It would eventually pay for itself.
Loved the video and the series idea! Maybe you could do NYC to Boston next.
Metuchen Tunnel should be separate tunnels for fire safety purposes. You could also do a cut + cover (Deckelbauweise) there under Middlesex Ave - Lincoln Highway
Yes, it's worth because it would revolutionize ridership and travel preferences, mode shift, and add value to real estate in the vicinity of stations by orders of magnitude mote than the current value of those vicinities and the properties affected by the realignments. A competant realator and/or appraisor should be able to provide estimates, based on previous cases.
An amazing view of what could have been on my home rails! Also, the town Metuchen is pronounced me-touch-in for future reference. Gold star??
I think gold stars are only for stews news
and I don't remember if he deems mispronunciations as worth a gold stat
Hey, that mispronunciation isn't as bad as mine. Until I read the comments on this video I always thought it was spelled Metchuen and pronounced it accordingly.
That went about how I expected
My Dad saw Japan like that, pretty much leveled with a few smoke stacks. It was a little drastic way to get a high speed train but if its what you want...
Excellent interesting video. Not to nitpick but it's Me-Touch-en for Metuchen.
Hey, that mispronunciation isn't as bad as mine. Until I read the comments on this video I always thought it was spelled Metchuen and pronounced it accordingly.
Some of these segments seem like they're good ideas regardless if the whole thing could reasonable be done. The segment at 2:00 for example removes derelict buildings and a couple charter schools but adds new infrastructure and reduces time. Seems like a win win for all parties. Even by the prison it would displace some individuals but if you can add new housing infrastructure as part of the overall package it could very well provide some reasonable compensation with limited costs.
0:11
Halethorpe MARC station mentioned!!!!!
$10B total?
I would expect the “Metuchen Tunnel” alone would cost twice that figure.
Good thought, looking forward to the next one…
Consider this alternative. I believe the only way to make high speed rail a viable alternative to car and plane is to build an exclusive rail network. Using freight rail network will always compromise passenger service. Use interstate highway as the right of way. Here is an example using PHL to NYC. Go underground from 30th Street Station across the river (bridge or tunnel whatever is cost effective) then above ground to Interstate 295. Then 295 to Interstate 95 where they intersect (near Florence NJ). Continue above ground to Elizabeth/Newark Airport. Then I95 to connect with ARC Tunnel to NYC. Details reviewed. Ultimately the line would go from PHL airport, 30th Street Station, Newark airport, NYC. New Trenton, Princeton and New Brunswick lines would feed 30th Street Station and Newark Airport. Bottom line? Use the interstate as right of way not freight train network.
I would love to see this for the NEC segment by segment but especially some love for the Hartford Line would be nice
This might be redundant but alternates to the LOSSAN corridor might be interesting given the need to reroute because of impending cliff failures between Dana Point and Del Mar
Yeah, was thinking the same. I was going to do it as a one-off, but I might do it as part of this series instead.
@@LucidStew Hopefully there will be events in the next year or two that can help the video (in whichever form it does take) have longevity as news comes out about the various projects on that rail corridor.
The state legislature would probably be opposed given that it would require state funds, also septa may lobby against it since it would directly interfere with it operations. Furthermore, the state would rather build the Commonwealth connector given that it’s already partially built.
Can you do the three C corridor in Ohio someday? I don't know what CSX or NS will do to give up some of the right-of-way for HSR.
Bump
Awesome video Stew! All those grade seperations, straighter right of ways and tunnels are impressive espically the Mutechen and Elizabeth portions of the right of way is like something the PRR could have fixed up but didnt.
Also not sure if you want to do this type of video but Miami to Orlando with grade seperation right of way. Sure Brightline exists now but the right of way from Cocoa to Miami its all with grade crossings and trains have been constantly getting collisions with cars and recently a fire truck has been hit by a brightline train at Del lray Beach, FL.
I hope Brightline considers Grade seperation but i dont know how much it would cost to that with them or the FRA?
Miami-Orlando is a little far, but Miami-Palm Beach is a pretty good fit for this. I have people asking me pretty regularly what it would take to get Brightline closer to HSR the whole way.
This makes me wonder where Northeast Maglev plan to build a new alignment that could do Washington to New York in an hour if you do all of this and still get an average speed of less then 125mph. I guess they must be avoiding the downtown stations in favor of the airports or something.
mostly underground, like in Japan.
I would like to see this re-examined with the Class 8 track speed limit of 160 mph, and also what speed increases the current alignment would permit, as a more practical example. Word is they’re redoing the catenary in this segment of the NEC with constant tension gear, so speed increases may be on the cards eventually.
"Damage is property only"
Sinister!
I'd love to see this with the LOSSAN corridor if possible
Same. LA to SD is actually hilariously not competitive with driving especially if you can time your drive to avoid the worst traffic. And that’s assuming you’re just going from downtown to downtown which is unlikely.
W00t! I see Lucid Stew, I click!
I would love to see you to a video on the Windsor to Quebec City route for a high speed train. Possibly even Chicago-Windsor-QC if you feel so inclined!
Definitively an interesting thought project and what is needed to upgrade it to proper high-speed in that section.
However, there is one point of criticism: You depicted the upgraded NEC as a quad-tracked line throughout. This is fine for straightening out curves but has almost no purpose when new alignment has to be found because the existing ROW is too curvy. This is for two reasons: a) The original ROW also has regional stops with normal placement, particularly around Philly, and b) the new alignment is narrower than thus has to take out fewer buildings in the long run. The major challenge, of course, is trying to figure out how to integrate this with the existing corridor since the NEC follows local outside, express inside pattern and whether it should be changed into two pairs of separate lines side-by-side (which would mean rebuilding all the platforms for local trains and flyovers in places where the express tracks switch sides).
A fitting comparison is the Rheintalbahn (the Karlsruhe-Offenburg section in particular) in Germany: Unlike most HSL in Germany, this one runs along an existing corridor and therefore acts as a second pair of tracks for this line, carrying all the express trains through that region. The notable exception is between Rastatt and Karlsruhe where the line ends right and a bypass is being built instead because it makes no sense at all to relocate the whole station just to speed up intercity trains which don't stop there anyway.
1:22 I propose rebuilding the zoo interlocking to support ease of access with Amtrak, currently septa and Amtrak are overlapping similar to how current Harold interlocking is at the moment. Could easily be done with cut and cover tunnels, only problem is convince Pennsylvania to fund it
They're fixing this rn and also raising the speed limit to about 60 mph.
@@khybersen4822 Details and/or link, please?
Seems reasonable.
I know you said 100 miles but I’d like to see the Capitol Corridor from Sacramento to San Jose. As a bonus if you can make a new depot in Oakland that connects with the BART lines that would be awesome.
Honestly, you can’t make an omelette without breaking a few eggs.
This idea is really what the Biden Administration should’ve considered.
I seriously think that for many of the proposed HSR pairings, massive re-engineering is going to be required.
Have you thought about Rio to Sao Paolo as a video?
would absolutely love to see this series for rhode island. maybe boston to NY?
I'm making a map that goes via Long Island, featuring some really long bridges. The last part left to do is getting it through eastern Queens.
As we used to say back in the days, "You 'bout to wreck some shyte!!!" (nuff said)
I would love to see brightline west to LA union via the San Bernardino line and the rest of the nec
Not under 100 miles but would love to see this sort of breakdown on the Portland to Seattle portion of the Cascadia HSR plans
A lot of the businesses and schools could be relocated into the remnants of the areas outlined, if we're playing by simcity rules ofc.
I’ve done a fantasy map a few times in the past
We should consider using existing rail and highway space as right of way. You know alongside them