Two questions. 1. Are you doing the lower octave scales after you speed up? I could see where using positions 1-4 in a higher range would be quicker than playing a low scales say starting on low Bb after you speed things up. 2. My difficulty is maintaining the doodle when jumping partials,any hints? Thanks
Chris Blood Hi, Chris -- first of all, thanks for watching! I do, actually, do the scale starting on low Bb, even at... whatever fast a tempo I can get up to. It doesn't sound great -- you are, after all, moving the slide from 1-6, or on the way down, from 6-1 and right back to 6 again -- but I do it anyway, in practice. There's a certain amount of faking involved, I'd have to say. As for jumping partials, especially the lower ones, like F-G in the staff, I don't have any specific bright ideas -- just isolate that interval, and practice it super-slow at first, and really isolate the difficulty until that one thing starts to improve, before you put it back into context with the rest of the scale. Funny you bring this up -- I was doing exactly that, with my student last night (I have exactly one student!) -- we weren't working on doodle tonging, just a plain-ol' legato tongue. You might try something like this: make an exercise with quarter notes: F in 1st position, G in 4th, then go out to 6th for an F, then back to G, and just repeat those four notes over and over, with a doodle tongue. That might kind of jog your brain a little, and give you the feel of going from F to G with AND without a jump in partials, just to try and "fool" it into thinking there's no difference! Try it at a tempo of, say, quarter note = 100 or so at first, and just concentrate on making it happen at that tempo -- keep it simple. Do the same kind of thing with any sequence of notes across partials that's giving you trouble -- and of course, always make sure you're getting enough breath support. I like to take things really slow even now, on occasion, to kind of force the issue of doing it cleanly without faking! :-D
Thank you for your help. Articulation is my concern, tongue placement to be precise. Do you daddle behind the teeth? or higher up, where the gums end and the roof of the mouth meet?
+goldito62 Hi! I had to think about this for a moment, because I didn't know the answer. But it's definitely "higher up," and actually even further back than where gums meet roof-of-mouth. My tongue is contacting the roof of my mouth probably about halfway "up," between the gum line and the highest point of the mouth. What's your native language? I'm wondering if this might have something to do with it -- when I saw Jacques Mauger at the 1997 ITF in Illinois, he said that he felt the characteristic sound of French trombonists had to do with the mouth-cavity shape used when speaking French (more use of the back of the mouth).
+Urbie4 :That's funny, because I'm Puerto Rican, so one would conclude that I can roll my "r"'s with more rapid continuity, but my people actually produce an Arabic sounding "r" , more from the throat than the tongue. What's even funnier, that with my last name, IRIZARRY, I would be a tongue rolling fool, but to the contrary. Mexicans often mistake "d"s for "r"s,. Spaniards sometimes replace "s"'s with the "th" sound. Chinese have issues with "r"s, and Philippinos often replace "p"'s for "f"s, but enough of world linguistics. Wycliffe Gordon, a phenomenal slide virtuoso, wrote a book emphasizing the importance of singing the phrase before playing it. There is a TH-cam master class, poor sound quality, however.I've struggled with tongue placement when playing with different genres. Because playing The Ride of Valkyrie is different than playing the solo in Czardas, it can be confusing on the approach with regard to the tongue, but I really appreciate your input, and I'm sure that I'll be imposing on you again, thank you
+goldito62 Well, it's interesting that you mention Wycliffe G. emphasizing singing. I've been reading Fergus McWilliam's "Blow Your Own Horn," and he echoes that idea. I've been doing that with my student (I have exactly one!), and have also noted that the way I tongue is pretty much exactly the way I articulate when singing! I'm not sure if it's that way for everyone, but it sure is for me. My student's husband (also a trombonist) is Japanese, and he also finds doodle tonguing difficult -- possibly for linguistic reasons! I actually made this video at his request -- that's why I look so sloppy; I wasn't planning to put it out there for public viewing, but after I posted, decided to do it anyway. Next time, I'll fix my hair before I start the camera rolling!
goldito62 my doodle tongue connects with the roof of the mouth where it starts to feel weird if you know what I mean, it’s a very subtle articulation that adds the sound of articulation while utilizing the the natural glissando and lip slurs on the horn
There are people that never touch the horn and can tongue faster than me. My tongue is an 800pnd guerrilla. I've daddled for months, but my tongue says it ain't going any faster than a medium speed at best. Some say to trade the daddle for the daga. Is that an alternative for the daddle deficient? Or do I continue on like a lineman trying to catch a receiver? What say you? Thank you for your contribution.
+goldito62 Whatever works best for you, is the correct answer! But I have always found that with the "daga-daga" articulation, there's a tempo "hole," in between the fastest I can single-tongue and the slowest I can use the daga-daga comfortably. Say, if you're playing a jazz solo around 240 bpm or so, my single tongue is scuffling pretty hard at that tempo, but the conventional double tongue bogs down -- it doesn't get comfortable until closer to 300 bpm or so (assuming my brain can think of what to play, that fast!). The doodle can be used at any tempo -- I think in the video, I mention that Bill Watrous said he doodled on ballads, in a clinic I saw (also at an ITF, in the '80s). JJ also used a doodle -- there is some controversy about this, but he stated clearly, in an interview with Tom Everett for the ITA Journal, that he used a doodle at times.
Hey Urbie4- when you hit the "dull" portion of the "dah-dull", do you hold your tongue in the "L" position? So that it's "dah-dull-lah-dull-"? I'm trying to feel this out because I'm getting decent at double tonguing and doodle tonguing is my next thing to tackle.
davdud101 Yes, that's it -- it's really "da-dl-a-dl-a-dl-a-dl," or something to that effect. So that when you play a row of notes, there's really only one "hard D," at the beginning -- after that, it's all just "a-dl-a-dl-a-dl-a-dl." That's when you're playing legato. When you're going for a more separated sound, it gets to be more like 'Da-dl-da-dl-da-dl." If you have J.J. Johnson's "Really Livin'," one of my favorite examples of this "harder" articulation is "Almost Like Being In Love," which I think is the last tune on the first side of the LP. Maybe I need to do a follow-up to this video, to try and explain it better!
+goldito62 It will be! Try practicing really slowly, the way I'm doing it around 2:37. Just take it as slow as you need to, using a metronome, and practice that way until it's comfortable. Then kick the metronome up one notch, and practice at that tempo until you're comfortable with that... and so on. It'll come, but you have to be patient! When I started, I think it took about 3 months of practice before I was able to use it on gigs.
@@Urbie4 I just took up trombone again. I did some consulting for the music camp I went to, and I was paid with a chinese knock off trombone. Why oh why didn't I keep by 88H or my Bach 502b? I have been doing blues scale exercises, now I'm going to add doodle tonguing.
@@niwdooglliw My student has a beautiful 88H (along with a Rath -- ha, her horns are worth more than mine). Nice horn! Lemme know if you have any questions about anything -- urbie@kafalas.com
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Thank you to share your discoveries.
This has helped me greatly! Thank you!
Two questions. 1. Are you doing the lower octave scales after you speed up? I could see where using positions 1-4 in a higher range would be quicker than playing a low scales say starting on low Bb after you speed things up. 2. My difficulty is maintaining the doodle when jumping partials,any hints? Thanks
Chris Blood Hi, Chris -- first of all, thanks for watching! I do, actually, do the scale starting on low Bb, even at... whatever fast a tempo I can get up to. It doesn't sound great -- you are, after all, moving the slide from 1-6, or on the way down, from 6-1 and right back to 6 again -- but I do it anyway, in practice. There's a certain amount of faking involved, I'd have to say. As for jumping partials, especially the lower ones, like F-G in the staff, I don't have any specific bright ideas -- just isolate that interval, and practice it super-slow at first, and really isolate the difficulty until that one thing starts to improve, before you put it back into context with the rest of the scale. Funny you bring this up -- I was doing exactly that, with my student last night (I have exactly one student!) -- we weren't working on doodle tonging, just a plain-ol' legato tongue. You might try something like this: make an exercise with quarter notes: F in 1st position, G in 4th, then go out to 6th for an F, then back to G, and just repeat those four notes over and over, with a doodle tongue. That might kind of jog your brain a little, and give you the feel of going from F to G with AND without a jump in partials, just to try and "fool" it into thinking there's no difference! Try it at a tempo of, say, quarter note = 100 or so at first, and just concentrate on making it happen at that tempo -- keep it simple. Do the same kind of thing with any sequence of notes across partials that's giving you trouble -- and of course, always make sure you're getting enough breath support. I like to take things really slow even now, on occasion, to kind of force the issue of doing it cleanly without faking! :-D
Very nice.
Thank you for your help. Articulation is my concern, tongue placement to be precise. Do you daddle behind the teeth? or higher up, where the gums end and the roof of the mouth meet?
+goldito62 Hi! I had to think about this for a moment, because I didn't know the answer. But it's definitely "higher up," and actually even further back than where gums meet roof-of-mouth. My tongue is contacting the roof of my mouth probably about halfway "up," between the gum line and the highest point of the mouth. What's your native language? I'm wondering if this might have something to do with it -- when I saw Jacques Mauger at the 1997 ITF in Illinois, he said that he felt the characteristic sound of French trombonists had to do with the mouth-cavity shape used when speaking French (more use of the back of the mouth).
+Urbie4 :That's funny, because I'm Puerto Rican, so one would conclude that I can roll my "r"'s with more rapid continuity, but my people actually produce an Arabic sounding "r" , more from the throat than the tongue. What's even funnier, that with my last name, IRIZARRY, I would be a tongue rolling fool, but to the contrary. Mexicans often mistake "d"s for "r"s,. Spaniards sometimes replace "s"'s with the "th" sound. Chinese have issues with "r"s, and Philippinos often replace "p"'s for "f"s, but enough of world linguistics. Wycliffe Gordon, a phenomenal slide virtuoso, wrote a book emphasizing the importance of singing the phrase before playing it. There is a TH-cam master class, poor sound quality, however.I've struggled with tongue placement when playing with different genres. Because playing The Ride of Valkyrie is different than playing the solo in Czardas, it can be confusing on the approach with regard to the tongue, but I really appreciate your input, and I'm sure that I'll be imposing on you again, thank you
+goldito62 Well, it's interesting that you mention Wycliffe G. emphasizing singing. I've been reading Fergus McWilliam's "Blow Your Own Horn," and he echoes that idea. I've been doing that with my student (I have exactly one!), and have also noted that the way I tongue is pretty much exactly the way I articulate when singing! I'm not sure if it's that way for everyone, but it sure is for me. My student's husband (also a trombonist) is Japanese, and he also finds doodle tonguing difficult -- possibly for linguistic reasons! I actually made this video at his request -- that's why I look so sloppy; I wasn't planning to put it out there for public viewing, but after I posted, decided to do it anyway. Next time, I'll fix my hair before I start the camera rolling!
goldito62 my doodle tongue connects with the roof of the mouth where it starts to feel weird if you know what I mean, it’s a very subtle articulation that adds the sound of articulation while utilizing the the natural glissando and lip slurs on the horn
There are people that never touch the horn and can tongue faster than me. My tongue is an 800pnd guerrilla. I've daddled for months, but my tongue says it ain't going any faster than a medium speed at best. Some say to trade the daddle for the daga. Is that an alternative for the daddle deficient? Or do I continue on like a lineman trying to catch a receiver? What say you? Thank you for your contribution.
+goldito62 Whatever works best for you, is the correct answer! But I have always found that with the "daga-daga" articulation, there's a tempo "hole," in between the fastest I can single-tongue and the slowest I can use the daga-daga comfortably. Say, if you're playing a jazz solo around 240 bpm or so, my single tongue is scuffling pretty hard at that tempo, but the conventional double tongue bogs down -- it doesn't get comfortable until closer to 300 bpm or so (assuming my brain can think of what to play, that fast!). The doodle can be used at any tempo -- I think in the video, I mention that Bill Watrous said he doodled on ballads, in a clinic I saw (also at an ITF, in the '80s). JJ also used a doodle -- there is some controversy about this, but he stated clearly, in an interview with Tom Everett for the ITA Journal, that he used a doodle at times.
daga is double tonguing, basically using your tongue (da), then your throat (ga) to go 2x fast
Hey Urbie4- when you hit the "dull" portion of the "dah-dull", do you hold your tongue in the "L" position? So that it's "dah-dull-lah-dull-"?
I'm trying to feel this out because I'm getting decent at double tonguing and doodle tonguing is my next thing to tackle.
davdud101 Yes, that's it -- it's really "da-dl-a-dl-a-dl-a-dl," or something to that effect. So that when you play a row of notes, there's really only one "hard D," at the beginning -- after that, it's all just "a-dl-a-dl-a-dl-a-dl." That's when you're playing legato. When you're going for a more separated sound, it gets to be more like 'Da-dl-da-dl-da-dl." If you have J.J. Johnson's "Really Livin'," one of my favorite examples of this "harder" articulation is "Almost Like Being In Love," which I think is the last tune on the first side of the LP. Maybe I need to do a follow-up to this video, to try and explain it better!
What if your tongue ain't fast enough
+goldito62 It will be! Try practicing really slowly, the way I'm doing it around 2:37. Just take it as slow as you need to, using a metronome, and practice that way until it's comfortable. Then kick the metronome up one notch, and practice at that tempo until you're comfortable with that... and so on. It'll come, but you have to be patient! When I started, I think it took about 3 months of practice before I was able to use it on gigs.
Did you go to Clark University, or are there two trombone playing John Kafalas?
Hi, Will! Great to hear from you. I still have your Harmon mute somewhere -- you left it behind, and Relly gave it to me!
@@Urbie4 I just took up trombone again. I did some consulting for the music camp I went to, and I was paid with a chinese knock off trombone. Why oh why didn't I keep by 88H or my Bach 502b? I have been doing blues scale exercises, now I'm going to add doodle tonguing.
@@niwdooglliw My student has a beautiful 88H (along with a Rath -- ha, her horns are worth more than mine). Nice horn! Lemme know if you have any questions about anything -- urbie@kafalas.com
Great! What mouthpiece do you use?
These days, I'm using a Wick 6BS (or 6BL on a big horn), but in this video, I'm using an old Conn 3.