@@Munchkin303 ...which catapulted us into computer age.... and now, with the bad shaped monitors, we are going back to the stone ages.... or even worse
that's why I had 2 16:9 monitors, that wasted space on the desk though, but at least I could leave space on the right and left and actually have 2 square window of text, both of them filling the entire vertical space
Keeping code in tight 80 columns makes it possible to use 16:9 side-by-side.. but 80 columns is tiny as fuck and makes it harder to read oftentimes. I find 100 to be a lot better for readability, but then it doesn't fit anymore in 16:9, so I have to make my font smaller so it fits... 21:9 is definitely the superior format.
Finding problems is the first step to finding solutions. Too many people just accept things the way they are because they can't even start to imagine how it could be better. But yeah, just pointing out issues all the time can get exhausting to anyone listening.
I also place my taskbar on the left, started doing that when I had a widescreen monitor, now I have a 4K, but the taskbar on the left still makes sense for the same reason.
Thank goodness I'm not just crazy. I've heard everyone say that widescreen is better because you "see more." No, because if you get a 4:3 monitor that is the same horizontal width as a 16:9 monitor, now you can "see more" on the 4:3 one. And then if you get a 16:9 monitor that is as tall as your 4:3, now you can "see more" on your 16:9. And back and forth and back and forth. So the ratio has literally nothing to do with how much you can see. It's the size of the screen and how much of your vision it is utilizing.
This is why some people mount their monitors vertically. Honestly it's a lot better for text, even though it looks weird at first. You also get enough horizontal space to not have line wrapping.
16:9 is okay on my 4k 43 inch monitor for 2 column layout. But I agree for anything 16:9 under 30" it becomes less ideal, especially on lower resolutions
i think the 3:2 aspect ratio on surface devices and increasingly more windows laptops is my favorite aspect ratio, i don't think there is a new laptop that is released nowadays that is not 3:2 or 8:5
@@michaelzomsuv3631 I've had games where important interactable elements fell off the edges of the screen - I've had one game where the "Start Game" on the main menu fell off the bottom of the screen (it required full-screen, I sent a support e-mail and they said to use a different monitor)! I've had games where HUD elements clip off the horizontal edges of the screen. I've had games where stuff wasn't drawn on the edges of canvases and would pop in when it got closer to the center. I've had games that have hard-coded drawing aspect ratios and just looked wider the entire time. I've had games where they use a traditional aspect ratio and just pad the edges with black bars (although, to be fair, ain't a bad solution). All cases where no one considered or even tested 21:9 during development. It's definitely not an all-encompassing statement that any game will "work just fine".
I can relate to this. I also use screen ratio and larger fonts. So everything turns to crap immediately. And I'm not handicapped or something, I wear glasses and I don't want my eyes to hurt after 9-hours work day.
You can comfortably fit 3 scripts side to side with small text on a 4k monitor on vscode, plus window on the side for documentation. Choosing a good theme for syntax highligting helps a lot (try Ayu One)
just move the entire window to the left, also, geez, close the toolbars, they lose useless space. visual studio is kind of a good program if you just close the clutter. you can call the command for what you need with ctrl-shift-p or something and use the search bar
I think an important topic missed in this video is display size and, importantly, display scaling. You NEED all 3 of those to have this conversation properly. I have a 42" 4K monitor with 100% scaling. And I hide the taskbar. It's like having 4x 21" 1080P monitors with no bezels. That's much better than having a 4:3 monitor of a non specified size like he does here.
Look where Jonathan puts his taskbar. The mark of a genius. Apparently it's much too difficult for a multi-trillion dollar company to make this happen in 2024.
people saying "he omplains about everything" but i am totally with him. i ALWAYS used the bar on the left side of my window. now in windows 11 they took away that feature. welp, im using linux now :)
I use my toolbars on the sides if possible (preferably on the right) I read in one book that (at least in non right-to-left written countries) people concentrate best on top left part of the screen or webpage. Cheers.
I guess it's not the point, but you can hide the task bar if you want... that's what I did. Also, you can write a simple script to prevent your pointer from ever unhiding it by accident - turned out pretty simple in WHK2 (if you aren't above looking through MSDN for an hour)
Nah, we were just playing games fine in 4:3 back in the days. Games are better in 16:9 is just an after explanation. Because we ended up with 16:9 we try to make excuses of why it's better.
Totally right about this. 16:9 is terrible for computers. You kind of have two options now to improve the situation: go bigger and use something TV sized to just have massive screenspace to make up for it or you can go ultrawide. I use a 32:9 ultrawide and it's a much better option for programming. I can have a "focus" section with my code in the middle and documentation to the sides. It's a very pleasant experience. Powertoys on Windows or a tiling window manager on Linux make it easy to manage. I don't think 21:9 is very good either. It's really not wide enough for that workflow and you don't want to have the thing you focus on to the side of the screen. It's kind of this really useless middle ground where you just have to waste 50% of you screen space.
totally agree. TV used to be 4:3 and movies 24:10, then some dimwit thought ok, why don't we combine the two and make something in between. This is why you have black bars on the sides when watching TV shows from pre16:9 era and black bars on top and bottom when watching movies. It was a failure. Aesthetically it is also a failure, it is just not wide enough. 21:9 is amazing, but not a standard.
Calling 16:9 a "mediocre middle ground" is actually dead-on. That's the whole point of choosing that ratio. It's a middle-ground between the 4:3 of TV and the 2.35:1 of the movies. Both of the common ratios display with a similar amount of black bars on it. Unfortunately, that was really the only reason for settling on it. Just because all the TVs use it, however, isn't a good reason for always using it for monitors, especially given that a good size for a monitor and a good size for a TV have very little overlap, so you're making separate displays either way.
I'm using a 16/10 laptop (lg gram) and it's indeed much better than 16/9 for productivity tasks especially on laptop, and at the same time it's ok for videos. So 16/10 on laptop is the best IMO
16:9 was chosen as a middle ground between movie's widescreen and television's 4:3. As home movies grew more popular, TV's started being manufactured to accommodate both. And when computers started being used more to watch video content, they followed suit. It really is the worst of both worlds. I've been very happy with 21:9 though very much looking forward to getting rid of aspect ratios altogether with spatial computing
He really does complain about every little thing. Also, "back in the days", due to lower resolution and monitor sizes, you weren't able to see any more lines of code than nowadays.
@@zhulikkulik I don't know if you are unaware of this, but your comment has just refuted the fact that text is vertical, as it is a single horizontal line in an aspect ratio of 20:1 or so. Similarly with images, they can be any format you want, why would you put anything on an unsubstantiated basis? Your statement is completely devoid of content, except: 4 to 3 is great imo.
I disagree. I run two 80 columns terms side by side on 16:9. Absolute win. 80 columns is sufficient if you remove all junk from the editor like line numbers and gutter.
I'm first making a comment and then watching. Everything other position for the taskbar then this is stupid and not ergonomic. Especially if you have 2 monitors. I don't want carpal tunnel issues. I want the damn thing right in the middle easily accessible. Love seeing this lol
If they are too big, why not resize that visual-studio windows ? Or un-dock that things and put on a 2nd monitor, which you need anyways to test things you code. btw. having more lines of code visible depends on how much vertical resolution you have, doesn't matter if its 4:3 or 16:9 or 34:23 or whatever. So, complaining for the sake of complaining?
16:9 rotated is unusuable for anything else than reading text. Trust me ive tried. Ive also tried 10:16. Its not a good compromise if you want to do other things too. Big 4k screens are really the best option.
Poor Jonathan doesn't understand that the world doesn't revolve about meeting his precise needs. Either way, he can always turn the monitor 90 degrees. Or get a old Lenovo with 4:3
16:9 exists because it's the best for watching content. 4:3 is too narrow, 21:9 is only good for cinema. On a laptop you probably want 16:10. For a desktop or a stationary laptop, just get more monitors. Put them vertical.
I like 16:9. You know what, no. Jonathan Blow I put up with a lot from you but this is the last straw! Jonathan Blow doesn't like ANYTHING except for that water filter!
Man, talk about unnecessary complaining. If you don't like your monitor aspect ratio, buy a monitor with an aspect ratio that suits your needs. If you don't like the Taskbar taking up space, hide it. If you don't like that IDE, just get a different one that fits more your preferences. I'm using Rider für Unreal and I don't get this wasted space with tabs. Also, why would 16:9 give you less vertical space? Just adjust your font settings, you can get as many vertical character space as on a 4:3. If you really want a lot of vertical space, get a wide monitor and flip it by 90 degrees!
Sure but it does suck that you basically can’t buy monitors in other sizes any more (unless you’re going wider). Even 16:10 monitors are rare unless it’s on a laptop.
@@namenamington There is no such thing as a monitor that can be rotated 90 degrees? There is no such thing as a hideable Taskbar, different IDE or font settings? Ok
640x480 was an explicit instruction from God.
Terry Davis thought so 🥲
It was an aspect ratio of the Stone tablets
@@Munchkin303 ...which catapulted us into computer age.... and now, with the bad shaped monitors, we are going back to the stone ages.... or even worse
Jonathan Blow on Recycle Bin
Jonathan Blow on While loops
Jonathan Blow on SATA cables
Jonathan Blow on Insert key
"Gentlemen, we've done it. Our committee has discovered the one ratio, out of all possible ratios, that Jonathan Blow doesn't like."
Next time: "Jonathan Blow on flushing the toilet"
"It is such a failure" 😂
Oh, don't get me started about toilets with a shelf!!!!!
And toilets that enable "Poseidon's kiss" due to their geometry.
toilets having two strengths of flushing is such an anti-pattern
@@kabukitheater9046 it is, one is just waste of water, and the other is actually flushing the toilet
@@kabukitheater9046another useless abstraction layer that makes everything unnecessarily complicated.
"You shouldn't be proud of how much poop is in your toilet" - Jon Blow
Isn't it sus wide screens started getting more popular at the same time and rate Java started getting more popular?
that's a weird way to spell PHP
We never saw the creator of Java and the creator of the first 16:9 screen together. Think about it
I experience this two side-by-side problem every time I try and program with docs on the side
I've been using a 21:9 monitor for almost 10 years now and it works really well for what you describe
that's why I had 2 16:9 monitors, that wasted space on the desk though, but at least I could leave space on the right and left and actually have 2 square window of text, both of them filling the entire vertical space
Keeping code in tight 80 columns makes it possible to use 16:9 side-by-side.. but 80 columns is tiny as fuck and makes it harder to read oftentimes. I find 100 to be a lot better for readability, but then it doesn't fit anymore in 16:9, so I have to make my font smaller so it fits... 21:9 is definitely the superior format.
Turn screen 90 degrees lol
Tate mode!!!
Finding problems is the first step to finding solutions. Too many people just accept things the way they are because they can't even start to imagine how it could be better. But yeah, just pointing out issues all the time can get exhausting to anyone listening.
I think he's gonna love 9 by 16
I also place my taskbar on the left, started doing that when I had a widescreen monitor, now I have a 4K, but the taskbar on the left still makes sense for the same reason.
Imagine a world in which every product would need to go through J Blow's standards...
I do... it's empty. It's the void.
That basically caused 9/11
That world is called 1989.
A colleague had a 1:1 square screen, it was superb for IDEs
Thank goodness I'm not just crazy. I've heard everyone say that widescreen is better because you "see more." No, because if you get a 4:3 monitor that is the same horizontal width as a 16:9 monitor, now you can "see more" on the 4:3 one. And then if you get a 16:9 monitor that is as tall as your 4:3, now you can "see more" on your 16:9. And back and forth and back and forth.
So the ratio has literally nothing to do with how much you can see. It's the size of the screen and how much of your vision it is utilizing.
This is why some people mount their monitors vertically.
Honestly it's a lot better for text, even though it looks weird at first. You also get enough horizontal space to not have line wrapping.
Mateview 28 is a 3840x2560, 3:2 display.
It’s pretty old now but I’ve always wanted the eizo 1920x1920 display lol
This looks sick. Thanks for the plug.
I have it, its pretty great
Imagine when J Blow discovers you can't move your taskbar LMAO.
3:55 what did they rewrote using C# back in 2006? (if anyone know the context that was talked about, maybe visual studio / some components of it?)
VS I believe
I believe parts of Visual Studio were redone using WPF.
I'm using an LG screen that has a 16x18 ratio. It pretty great! Lots of space vertically and the same amount of width as a normal monitor.
This is why I use the LG Dual Up it's 8:9 making it the closest thing to a modern 4:3 screen.
I have a 55' tv for a monitor, so I can have whatever size I want.
The bear is sticky with honey
16:9 is okay on my 4k 43 inch monitor for 2 column layout. But I agree for anything 16:9 under 30" it becomes less ideal, especially on lower resolutions
And apparently human vision is 4:3 or 5:4.
LSP was made to work optimally on 16:9 displays so it actually is the perfect aspect ratio.
i think the 3:2 aspect ratio on surface devices and increasingly more windows laptops is my favorite aspect ratio, i don't think there is a new laptop that is released nowadays that is not 3:2 or 8:5
"Back in the day", oh the superiority of being a young Gen-X programmer
I use a vertical taskbar because a horizontal taskbar on an ultrawide monitor is cancer.
Yup, if you want 2 rows of code, 21:9 is the way to go, but then none of the game devs support your aspect ratio :(
Games will work just fine in 21:9. It's not as perfectly designed as it is for 16:9, but it still works just fine most of the time.
@@michaelzomsuv3631 I've had games where important interactable elements fell off the edges of the screen - I've had one game where the "Start Game" on the main menu fell off the bottom of the screen (it required full-screen, I sent a support e-mail and they said to use a different monitor)! I've had games where HUD elements clip off the horizontal edges of the screen. I've had games where stuff wasn't drawn on the edges of canvases and would pop in when it got closer to the center. I've had games that have hard-coded drawing aspect ratios and just looked wider the entire time. I've had games where they use a traditional aspect ratio and just pad the edges with black bars (although, to be fair, ain't a bad solution). All cases where no one considered or even tested 21:9 during development. It's definitely not an all-encompassing statement that any game will "work just fine".
The LG Dual Up is an 8:9 ultra-tall monitor
I can relate to this. I also use screen ratio and larger fonts. So everything turns to crap immediately. And I'm not handicapped or something, I wear glasses and I don't want my eyes to hurt after 9-hours work day.
This is his best take 4:3 ❤
does portrait not solve this problem? I don't use it yet but I always think I should be if I had more money to spend on monitors.
so true. its painful to use a 13.3 inch laptop monitor.
Tip: Rotate your monitor and flip the screen output by 90 degrees using GPU control panel.
You can comfortably fit 3 scripts side to side with small text on a 4k monitor on vscode, plus window on the side for documentation. Choosing a good theme for syntax highligting helps a lot (try Ayu One)
3:18 is spot on. No need to have those tabs on a separate row.
just move the entire window to the left, also, geez, close the toolbars, they lose useless space. visual studio is kind of a good program if you just close the clutter. you can call the command for what you need with ctrl-shift-p or something and use the search bar
bro he has an opinion on everything
Used to read manga on a 4:3 monitor, good times
jonathan needs that lg dualup monitor
I think an important topic missed in this video is display size and, importantly, display scaling. You NEED all 3 of those to have this conversation properly. I have a 42" 4K monitor with 100% scaling. And I hide the taskbar. It's like having 4x 21" 1080P monitors with no bezels. That's much better than having a 4:3 monitor of a non specified size like he does here.
4:3 is my favorite aspect ratio
You can get 3:2 on a Laptop its quite the improvement.
9:16 secrete tip
Look where Jonathan puts his taskbar. The mark of a genius.
Apparently it's much too difficult for a multi-trillion dollar company to make this happen in 2024.
people saying "he omplains about everything" but i am totally with him. i ALWAYS used the bar on the left side of my window. now in windows 11 they took away that feature. welp, im using linux now :)
3:48 😂
I use my toolbars on the sides if possible (preferably on the right)
I read in one book that (at least in non right-to-left written countries) people concentrate best on top left part of the screen or webpage.
Cheers.
I guess it's not the point, but you can hide the task bar if you want... that's what I did. Also, you can write a simple script to prevent your pointer from ever unhiding it by accident - turned out pretty simple in WHK2 (if you aren't above looking through MSDN for an hour)
Is this an old clip? I remember watching this rant a long time ago.
Someone please introduce Jon to 21:9
Nah, we were just playing games fine in 4:3 back in the days.
Games are better in 16:9 is just an after explanation. Because we ended up with 16:9 we try to make excuses of why it's better.
I love this guy 😂
Totally right about this. 16:9 is terrible for computers. You kind of have two options now to improve the situation: go bigger and use something TV sized to just have massive screenspace to make up for it or you can go ultrawide.
I use a 32:9 ultrawide and it's a much better option for programming. I can have a "focus" section with my code in the middle and documentation to the sides. It's a very pleasant experience. Powertoys on Windows or a tiling window manager on Linux make it easy to manage.
I don't think 21:9 is very good either. It's really not wide enough for that workflow and you don't want to have the thing you focus on to the side of the screen. It's kind of this really useless middle ground where you just have to waste 50% of you screen space.
totally agree. TV used to be 4:3 and movies 24:10, then some dimwit thought ok, why don't we combine the two and make something in between. This is why you have black bars on the sides when watching TV shows from pre16:9 era and black bars on top and bottom when watching movies. It was a failure. Aesthetically it is also a failure, it is just not wide enough. 21:9 is amazing, but not a standard.
Calling 16:9 a "mediocre middle ground" is actually dead-on. That's the whole point of choosing that ratio. It's a middle-ground between the 4:3 of TV and the 2.35:1 of the movies. Both of the common ratios display with a similar amount of black bars on it. Unfortunately, that was really the only reason for settling on it. Just because all the TVs use it, however, isn't a good reason for always using it for monitors, especially given that a good size for a monitor and a good size for a TV have very little overlap, so you're making separate displays either way.
I use 32:9 and I love it for programming
Java coder spotted
@@replikvltyoutube3727 no idea how those would be related, I just like having several files open split vertically.
I'm using a 16/10 laptop (lg gram) and it's indeed much better than 16/9 for productivity tasks especially on laptop, and at the same time it's ok for videos. So 16/10 on laptop is the best IMO
16:9 was chosen as a middle ground between movie's widescreen and television's 4:3. As home movies grew more popular, TV's started being manufactured to accommodate both. And when computers started being used more to watch video content, they followed suit. It really is the worst of both worlds. I've been very happy with 21:9 though very much looking forward to getting rid of aspect ratios altogether with spatial computing
Also it's (4:3)^2
Why not just rotate the monitor? In fact have two rotated monitors - that’s what o do.
could you not put the 16:9 monitor in portrait (9:16) or is that mental?
He works on games so he would need it portrait to play the game he is working on
@@BanakaiGames I guess you could have one portrait for code and one landscape for the game.
He really does complain about every little thing. Also, "back in the days", due to lower resolution and monitor sizes, you weren't able to see any more lines of code than nowadays.
Text is vertical, images are horizontal. 4:3 was just about perfect compromise between the two, IMHO.
I agree. He complains about things he has no understanding of.
or at least a good reason
@@More_Rowhow would someone not understand something like aspect ratio in monitors?
@@zhulikkulik I don't know if you are unaware of this, but your comment has just refuted the fact that text is vertical, as it is a single horizontal line in an aspect ratio of 20:1 or so. Similarly with images, they can be any format you want, why would you put anything on an unsubstantiated basis? Your statement is completely devoid of content, except: 4 to 3 is great imo.
Old man shouting at the clouds
Just another win for array programmers 😂
Ehh. I regularly use vertical splits for coding on 16:9. You'd have to have really long lines (>100 columns) for this to be a problem.
I disagree. I run two 80 columns terms side by side on 16:9. Absolute win. 80 columns is sufficient if you remove all junk from the editor like line numbers and gutter.
I'm first making a comment and then watching. Everything other position for the taskbar then this is stupid and not ergonomic. Especially if you have 2 monitors. I don't want carpal tunnel issues. I want the damn thing right in the middle easily accessible. Love seeing this lol
verticle monitor?
If a 4:3 aspect ratio is good, then a 16:9 aspect ratio should be even better, because it's a 4:3 aspect ratio inside a 4:3 aspect ratio.
If they are too big, why not resize that visual-studio windows ?
Or un-dock that things and put on a 2nd monitor, which you need anyways to test things you code.
btw. having more lines of code visible depends on how much vertical resolution you have, doesn't matter if its 4:3 or 16:9 or 34:23 or whatever.
So, complaining for the sake of complaining?
Shhh. No one tell him he can rotate monitors 90 degrees.
So than you have a wonky clucky awkward 9:16 box that sits awkwardly on your desk. The point is not a personal one.
16:9 rotated is unusuable for anything else than reading text. Trust me ive tried. Ive also tried 10:16. Its not a good compromise if you want to do other things too. Big 4k screens are really the best option.
you look like the type of gremlin that would get offended over someone not respecting your preferred aspect ratio
@@nosleep7026 as a second monitor
Isn't this fixed by the physical size ?
Yes
Ultrawide master race
more like cringe race
def ultrawide and hide taskbar (on mac and windows, maybe on linux also if it supports ultrawide :) )
Just put your monitor on vertical mode dude sheeesh
Poor Jonathan doesn't understand that the world doesn't revolve about meeting his precise needs. Either way, he can always turn the monitor 90 degrees. Or get a old Lenovo with 4:3
Why doesn't he just true rotate the monitor?
16:9 exists because it's the best for watching content. 4:3 is too narrow, 21:9 is only good for cinema.
On a laptop you probably want 16:10. For a desktop or a stationary laptop, just get more monitors. Put them vertical.
21:9 is pretty ok for two things side by side. One of them just has to be narrow, but most docs are ok
21:9 is pretty glorious for coding, only problem is that three panes are a bit tight.
@@Frasse-g4f 32:9 is glorious. 49" ultra wide ftw!
Side-by-side is actually pretty good on 16:9. Maybe he’s right, SLIGHTLY less than ideal
I'm hoping for a "Jonathan Blow on being pedantic" video someday.
I wonder if he'll ever run out of things to complain about
16 9 is horrible
How does jonathan blow has an opinion on literally everything?
Most people do, but most people don't have all their opinions clipped and uploaded to youtube
16:9 portrait for coding, anyone?
What's his take on 69 though?
I like 16:9. You know what, no. Jonathan Blow I put up with a lot from you but this is the last straw! Jonathan Blow doesn't like ANYTHING except for that water filter!
L+tv sucks+ratio
Man, talk about unnecessary complaining. If you don't like your monitor aspect ratio, buy a monitor with an aspect ratio that suits your needs. If you don't like the Taskbar taking up space, hide it. If you don't like that IDE, just get a different one that fits more your preferences. I'm using Rider für Unreal and I don't get this wasted space with tabs. Also, why would 16:9 give you less vertical space? Just adjust your font settings, you can get as many vertical character space as on a 4:3. If you really want a lot of vertical space, get a wide monitor and flip it by 90 degrees!
Sure but it does suck that you basically can’t buy monitors in other sizes any more (unless you’re going wider). Even 16:10 monitors are rare unless it’s on a laptop.
None of those things exist.
Good luck buying capable laptop for programming with display other than 16:9. Even for standalone PC selection is very poor.
I agree that is unnecessary and can be easily solved. But also I enjoy hearing people with critical thinking.
@@namenamington There is no such thing as a monitor that can be rotated 90 degrees? There is no such thing as a hideable Taskbar, different IDE or font settings? Ok
Ratioed