Treantmonk's Guide to Wizards: Roles
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 7 เม.ย. 2019
- Welcome to Part 2 of my Guide to Wizards, the Party Roles!
Non-combat roles:
1:30 The Party Leader
5:56 The Party Scout
8:12 The Party Strongman
11:19 The Utility Caster
12:35 The Knowledge Expert
Combat Roles:
16:22 The God Wizard
26:57 The Glass Cannon
30:04 The Big Stupid Fighter
See you next week! - เกม
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Quick Correction: Enhance Ability is not on the Wizard spell list.
FeelsBadMan
@@fpanch0 yeah, it was such a dumb mistake, embarrassing!
Wizards do get skill empowerment though.
the Party Leader is not necessarily the face of the party....the Wizard could be the leader while the Bard does the talking for instance
You can also get new spells if you have access to a library and have the time and money. It takes 4 days and 100gp to add a new 1st level spell to your spellbook for example. Higher level spells require more time and money, but I only recall 1st level off-hand.
"We're not going to have all the knowledge skills"
*Laughs in Cloistered Scholar*
A role you missed? I have to say it's my favourite one, the BBEG.
Absolutely a great role, and a ton of fun, but hopefully not a member of the party (but that would be a cool twist)
@@TreantmonksTemple have you seen the new Icewind Dale campaign? I hear there are secrets for the DM to hand out to party members that are meant to cause suspicion and division or something, I hope its all done in a creative fun way that doesn't make people ragequit or anything
Wizards: "it's nice to review the basics like this."
Every other class: *furrows brow in a futile attempt to understand*
😂😂😂
I think you touched this, but I still think it's worth really hammering home: The party leader does not necessarily have to be the party face. I think they're two different roles. The party face is almost certainly the bard or the other high cha character on offer (barring players who are strongly introverted as you say); but to me the party leader is the one who makes the tough choices, and ultimately steers the group. No all tables have a party leader; but mine usually do. I'm actually currently playing a 7th level Wizard (Sage) who is the party leader, but not the face. With a Paladin, Sorcerer, Bard, and Swashbuckler for companions, I sit decidedly as the lowest cha player in the party. This usually means I'm not the first one approaching merchants or court nobles, but I am the one the party turns to form plans for how those meetings should run before they in fact do run. I also have the message cantrip where I will often help prompt my faces with ideas or suggestions from, say 50 feet away (effectively influencing the conversation). To a pretty strong degree, the party takes direction from me. I mastermind many conversations that I do not directly take part in.
So I definitely do think "Face" and "Leader" while often going hand-in-hand, certainly do not need to. Intelligence and wisdom govern better assessment and decision making, while charisma is all about social execution and conversational skill.
+
Absolutely. And it seems like party leader is as much about the dynamics among the *players* as among the characters.
@@gamecavalier3230 well its not excellent but no one cares about grammar in the youtube comment section
Any discussion of the Party Scout should mention Arcane Eye. It's invisible, moves 30'/round, and lasts for an hour. In many situations you can scout an entire complex or dungeon level with one spell slot.
Invisibility on a familiar takes a 2nd level spell slot instead of a 4th level one
It takes more prep to pull off, but wizards get more use out of familiars than out of arcane eyes
Another way to help fill "the strongman" role is for a Transmutation wizard to use minor alchemy to change something composed of iron or stone into wood to make it lighter for easier transportation or weaker to decrease its durability.
Who needs a rogue to pick a lock or a fighter to break one if you can just turn it to wood and burn it off? 🤔
Brilliant
It's a bit high level, but the Telekinesis spell allows a wizard to easily fulfill the role of Strongman. It does other things, too, you can use it to levitate people, or crush someone under 1000 pounds of rock.
The God Wizard!
I've been preaching this since I first discovered your guide. I was kind of already doing this. But I hadn't thought it through so well.
I do think that a couple levels dip of wizard can make a lot of meleers stronger. The utility and ritual spells are a huge addition, and if you're something like EK or AT, you'll continue to gain slots and spells.
For EK and AT Hexblade is a much stronger combat dip, and offers a lot of out of combat value in different areas than the wizard (maxed-out charisma checks vs utility/ritual spells). That said two levels of the War Magic school looks really strong, but probably not worth dipping until tier 3. The +4 to saves is pretty sick no matter who you are, and the +2 to AC is very strong when you are already decked in heavy armor and shield.
Im wstching through these wizard videos to learn more since im doing to be joining my first campaign tomorrow. Im so excited!
Always look forward to these videos. Keep up the good work!
And, I will see you, next week, right here for races as well. Well done.
Great video, looking forward to the next one!
> Terrible things happen to the zombie and the zombie is dead
Nooooooooo, wwwhhhyyyyyy! He was too young to die! Too young!
My wizard insists that the party's bard compose a dirge for the fallen zombie and the rest of the party takes on the role of "official mourners," inclusive of rending of garments.
If only there was a way to bring him back! Wait ...
I thoroughly enjoy your channel. Especially the wizard videoes.
Thank you!
Haha , especially the wizard. #DavvyChappy
This video series has made me want to just play nothing but wizards. Maybe I will try each class first then do that!
Welcome to my world!
Mountain Dwarves can also fulfill that tank role, perhaps not as well as gith because of a lack of int incredibly but they do get that armor and weapon proficiencies alongside a strength and con increase
I am playing in a adventurers league game right now (my first time playing D&D) and I currently have a muscle wizard with the urchin background. For the first few games I was the only player who had any stealth skills so I was the one who was scouting ahead at the moment.
He is a muscle wizard because he is actually self conscious about his body and his skin has magical tattoos on it and they act as his spell book. So when he gets into combat he immediately removes his trench coat so he can access his spells.
So far he is a fun character. it’s kinda fun picking out spells that help him with thieving, such as knock, mage hand, detect magic, and disguise self.
Haha! Tattoo spellbook bois! My half-orc was being trained (unwillingly) to be the new shaman and had all the tribe's magical knowledge tattooed on his skin. Then in a magical accident he was teleported far away, and now has to decipher the spells for himself to find a way home, translating and transcribing them onto a scribbled collection of notes.
@@wassentme1891 dang that’s a really cool idea. I might have to use that in a future character. Almost like Momento in D&D
Life transference is a third level spell, polymorph creates effective healing , multi-classing a dip in cleric can give access to healing, or the Healer's Feat. Also Summoning can grant a means to absorb enemy damage. - Doesn't change the fact Wizards are not great healers but , food for thought in a healer weak game.
You mention there is one good 5th level ritual (Rary's Telepathic Bond) but diviners should also make room in their spellbook for Contact Other Plane. With Portent to manage the saving throw, it's a useful spell that you can scribe for half price. It's also very much on-brand for a caster who uses magic to learn things.
19:13 Shadow Blade is a self only spell, which dissipates when dropped or thrown (and thus is implied to dissipate if you hand it to someone else, like how Flame Blade does if you let go of the weapon). Maybe some tables don't rule it that way but that's how I read the spell and how I feel most DMs would read it.
Utility caster image is Critical role fan art :D
Roles of the Wizard? I once played as a Warforged Divination Wizard named Searcher.
They had access to spells like Identify, Detect Magic, Legend Lore, etc..
And with spells such as those, as well as their high intelligence score and proficiency in history, arcana, and nature, they quickly became the group's Wiki.
Edit: For example, at 3rd tier (10-15) levels, the party's barbarian found this cursed sword, and held it up for me , as Searcher, to see, and asked, "Hey Searcher - do you know what this is?".
Searcher did a history check for looking at it at a glance, and could only tell that it looked super ancient; so they did an Identify and Legend Lore, and quickly realized it was a Sword of Kas.
Glass cannon 2 types: the single target focuser is the spiker, and the multiple target focuser is the glorious nuker.
Worth noting with Shadow Blade: "If you drop the weapon or throw it, it dissipates at the end of the turn. Thereafter, while the spell persists, you can use a bonus action to cause the sword to reappear in your hand."
This to me reads as you not being able to give the weapon to someone else.
Hexblade 2 / Abjurer X is a mean control tank. You combine an infinitely rechargeable ward (Mage Armour invocation... Or non-detection from deep Gnome) with Armour of Agathys. Two short rest slots for Shield and Absorb Elements. The last invocation: either devil's sight or give your EB 10 ft push
Why would you take EB? You can't have a very good Cha with that mix
@@TreantmonksTemple true, it depends on how highly you value the no save control and what your stat array is (16 int, 14 cha, 14 Dex, 14 con is available to gnomes). +2 to hit isn't terrible. I've seen variations with some of the other control cantrips as well. Tbh, it's a rather minor part compared to how much time you spent with booming blade and step dancing with AoA (which will deal a lot more damage than your cantrips). It's not like you stop being a Wizard either. You still have the best spell list in the game. If you find out, you like being a traditional Wizard a bit more, go for it. If you like hitting things, pump cha. That'll make you a pretty face with a brain to boot.
Thank you.
Thanks for this! Read your God build post in the forums. Playing a wizard who thinks killing is barbaric and inelegant. Puts enemies to sleep or tricks and bypasses them entirely.
I love that you can make an effective wizard who doesn't kill. Your character sounds like fun.
@@TreantmonksTemple thank you! This is my first pc after a 20 year hiatus, did some research. Your God/BC fit with where I am mentally. Leave the killing to the killers. Having a lot of fun with sleep and silent image.
@@emveeay As you level up, a lot more spells will work very effectively as well. Some ideas: Blindness/deafness at level 2, Hypnotic Pattern lvl 3, Watery Sphere lvl 4, Wall of force lvl 5, Mass Suggestion lvl 6, Forcecage lvl 7, Maze lvl 8, Prismatic Wall lvl 9
@@TreantmonksTempleTaking down notes. Once took down a domain spell with lowly touch of idiocy. Then put the shackles on that enemy wizard. Thats out of your debuff list
Big Stupid Fighter wizard? Hmmm...now I'm imagining a Mountain Dwarf Abjurer covered in magic runes. I like it!
Awesome idea, do it yo!
It would be more funny if he was a very antimagic dwarf and he was like a mage hunter so he knows all about magic but he didn't realize he had it. So he just thinks he is lucky the arcane ward deflects blows over his head etc. Firebolt or something is like black powder igniting in someone's pocket.
I enjoying giving new players this exact character if we're running pre-gens (that I make). Deceptively tanky, gives good non-magical combat options for the early game when it still matters, and gets them thinking outside of the Wizard stereotype.
Commenting because at some point I would like to see you make a Divine Sorcerer. I just tried to make one last night and, by the gods! Picking spells was incredibly difficult. Theres so many good options to choose from, and since I generally agree with your opinions on spell choices, I'd like to see what you can come up with.
Although multiclassed, both my Soradin build and my "ultimate spell sword" build used the divine sorcerer option, that should give you some ideas.
@@TreantmonksTemple I know what I'm listening to at work today
I find the Pact of the Tome/Book of Ancient Secrets Warlock is better at ritual casting, since he can get all of them. That is my preferred option if I'm not making a Hexblade.
Funny story, my friend loves to play bards. Once he found out the Bard is a full Caster class in 5e oh, he uses the Bard in the same way you use your Wizards. He uses illusion and enchantment to control the battlefield and buff his allies. I guess there's more than one way to skin a cat.
Funny story, because my bard is built for control, my party thinks he is weak. We were fighting six ogres and four giants in a tunnel of a mountain keep, and round one all the ogres are out with a level three slot. Just pretty funny to me at least lol
I love 5e Bards too. Only worry vs a wiz is your spells are pretty much fixed after choosing, while wizs/cleric/druid swap around as needed.
500th like! Great videos!
You forgot the "Waste of Space". The guy who chooses the spells you've color coded red or brown and put his 8 in intelligence because he thought it would be fun to play a big stupid wizard. : )
I didn't forget, I just knew that my clever and awesome viewers would never take that role ;)
4:21 Enhance Ability is NOT on the wizard list, even though available to Sorcerers.
Wow, that was dumb. Sorry about that.
@@TreantmonksTemple Yes, but the same logic still applies, since they can get a spell out of xanathar's called Skill Empowerment, that gives theme expertise in skills. Granted, its significantly higher level than enhance ability, but expertise > advantage in most cases, and at lower levels you have other spells like friends + disguise self to boost your social skills if your trying to be party leader. Likewise, if your a variant human the prodigy feat from Xanathar's can net you a better persuasion bonus than a sorc or warlock with max charisma for their level, due to the expertise it gives you, and the feat still gives you combat/adventuring-applicable abilities due to being able to grab the perception skill (or any other skill you want) with it.
Finally, if your using point buy, its not hard to have a solid Charisma without really hurting your Dex, Con and Int. I had a wizard who was party leader by virtue of me being the most experienced and outgoing player at the table, and she had stats of Str 8 Dex 14 Con 14 Int 16 Wis 9 Cha 14, which are totally fine stats for a wizard, and very much obtainable in point buy with either 1/2 elf (who'd actually have 10 wisdom instead of 9) or a variant human who starts with Resilient (Con) (which my character was.) I find this high charisma build is particularly good for enchanters (who actually get a feature that scales off their charisma score at high levels) and necromancers (who can take the inspiring leader feat to buff the health of their undead minions (and party, which is a solid/good idea if your going all-in on the pet aspect of the school), which makes both those schools a natural fit for the party leader role.
@@josephcittadino6541 yeah, my "leader" wizard had a 12 CHA. Wasn't as big an issue as I thought it would be though
Hi Treantmonk! Great guides, as usual... However, IMHO, the wizard is not a great class in social situations. Relying on spells like Suggestion, or other enchantments, that have V, S, or even M components, can be dangerous, if not outright detrimental: casting them in front of several people should make them worry, or even arrest you if there are guards... Casting any spell that can be seen is a huge problem in social interactions. Of course, it may depend on the setting you are playing (in a high magic setting like Eberron maybe it is acceptable casting spells in front of people), or maybe your DM does not pay attention to these "details": YMMV.
In our campaigns, it is a big NO NO and, unless you find a way to hide your casting, it is better to let the bard just do the talking...
If you have a Bard in your party, I agree, let them handle the social stuff. However, in regards to Suggestion, there is no somatic component, and I assume the verbal component is the suggestion itself. If you are holding your walking stick, I'm not sure there is anything that would indicate you are casting a spell.
@@TreantmonksTemple Well, actually according to J Crawford, the V component of casting a spell is different from the commands you issue through that spell. I think it actually makes sense: otherwise, when you cast Dominate Person, you would only command the person to do one thing (when casting the spell, if verbal components and commands are the same). This does not prove anything, it just makes the hypothesis "V components" not equal "commands" more plausible. And as you always say, "D&D is for everyone!", and play the D&D that best suits your table!
Tenser's disk is also a good door blocker.
I've used it as a "Tenser's Portable Floor Jack" to lift things for everyone else that needed to not be on the ground. Such as the party's wagon when the wheel snapped.
Wizard's best combat role is "crippling the entire enemy team" aka god wizard.
I agree that Wizards aren't the best buffing class. For my money, that title goes to Divine Soul Sorcerer. That gives them the Sorcerer and Cleric spell lists combined along with access to Metamagic like Twin (ex: Twin Haste, Twin Enhance Ability) and Extend (ex: Extended Greater Invisibility). They also get an ability that gives a bonus to their saving throws and have constitution save proficiency natively, making them less likely to be interrupted.
Twin + buffing is very nice indeed
The build I prefer is two levels of Life Cleric and the rest Divine Soul Sorcerer...
A unparalleled healer, with heavy armor and shield proficiency who can also throw out fireballs, lightning bolts, polymorph, and wishes
@@theonlymatthew.l nice. If going for healing, have you looked at Life Cleric 1 / Lore Bard with Healing Spirit and Aura of Vitality?
@@stranger6822 I do like that build, however I prefer having the versatility of two complete spell lists to cherry pick from each level,. if I need more healing I can take it, more blasting, no problem. Oh and if I want to buff, well I have plenty of options for that too.
I absolutely adore the lore bard, it's one of the few classes I would really consider playing till level 18 without any need for deviation
Stop Trolling it's Just an Opinion Life Cleric/Lore Bard is a better healer, so not really unparalleled. But the truly best healer in game is a triple a MCed Life Cleric/Lore Bard/Divine Soul with Extended Spell on Healing Spirit.
for BSF wizard i recommend
Abjure wizardX/valor bard3
Medium armor, Shield, Shield Spell
Bard Healing Magic (Lesser restoration is an abjuration spell), Concentrate on blur
Edit: you can also get enhance ability, Expertise in 2 skills, jack of all trades and inspiration for bonus actions.
Your AC can hit 19 easy with 14 dex score with not a single magic item.
What about Evoker 10 Hexblade 1. Stand in medium armor and shield with Mirror Image up and cast supercharged Magic Missiles.
@@M0ebius BFS stands for Big stupid fighter, how does pumped up magic missiles do that?
CrazedCanuck You stand toe to toe with your foe decked out in armor and slug it out with your auto-hit Magic Missile reskinned as Magic Fists of Fury?
@@M0ebius shield spell. auto stops magic missile, rejuvenates arcane ward at the same time.
CrazedCanuck You are a Wizard. Counterspell that Shield.
wish you made builds based on these
6:10 That's the owl
So as the Wizard expert, and considering my party, what role should I try and fill for CoS?
Party is a Lizardfolk Blood Hunter, a Protector Aasimar Divine Soul Sorcerer, a Tabaxi Bard, a High Elf Rogue, and me as the wizard.
Is anyone going to be in melee?
The Blood Hunter (Sword and Board) and possibly the Rogue (Dagger/Shortsword)
Then God Wizard is probably a good fit
Glad I'm not crazy. Thanks for the advice
Is it weird that my two favorite combat roles are BSF and God Wizard. Like I'm either rocking a Paladin, Barbarian, Fighter, Cleric with good armor/weapon proficincies. Or I'm rocking a Wizard. Glass canon spellcasters like warlocks and sorcerers can be fun. But i like the variety i get with a Wizard.
No I am the same way - at least until Hexblade was printed. It’s fun to smash your foes face-to-face, but it’s just as fun hanging back and dominate the battlefield with spells. But now I try to build characters that can do both in varying degrees.
Wouldn't starting as a fighter be useful prof in Con saves and heavy armor assuming you start the campaign at level 7 or 11 or something
I'm not too worried about Con saves, all saves will be good. We need that Paladin level.
@@TreantmonksTemple This isn't on the eternal cockroach video. Lol.
This is on the wizard roles and you said the only worthwhile multiclass you thought there was is for the knowledge(or arcana)cleric. I was wondering whether you thought a 1st level dip in fighter could be useful after all the level 20 ability isn't great.
Any advice for low wealth campaigns? What good spell pics with out costly components would you suggest?
Most of the spells I recommend will not have costly components. Those with, I'll provide that warning. Wizard really is the best class for those kinds of campaigns, because they can do so much without the requirement of buying stuff.
@@TreantmonksTemple besides your school of choice is there any way to reduce cost putting spells into your book? With that being a costly process what school might you recommend? Im coming more from 3.5 edition is the warforged in 5e? Im looking to save as much as possible... I'm new to treasure points and the problem we are having is vendors have huge markups and adding things into spell book is really limiting
Well, worst case scenario, you can get by with just your base spells and 2 per level up.
I don't think there is currently a race that grants a plus to con and int, other than humans. Are you planning on doing a video about what feats a wizard should consider?
Off the top of my head, Fire Genasi and Hobgoblin are races that receive both constitution and intelligence bonuses.
A full list of what's to come is in the video description of this one: th-cam.com/video/pcJ7Yu2fzPo/w-d-xo.html
Rock Gnomes also get con and int.
What are your thoughts on wizards carrying weapons?
Sure, why not?
@@TreantmonksTemple Shrug. Got a friend who says it's not 'optimized'. I mean, yeah, most of the time you aren't going to be using them, but there are situations.
A high DEX elf wizard is better off using a longbow over firebolt until level 5. Everyone made fun of my wizard for doing so calling him a ranger.
@@Wanderingsage7 as Dylan points out, a good Dex wizard (which is common) will do more with a ranged weapon (light crossbow works just fine too) than any cantrip.
First of all ty for doing this,
going pub,
been using your guides since Pathfinder and the insight has always been top quality
Now i need an opinion: wizards in a "gritty realism" campaign --- is it playable ? (8h shortrest, 1week longrest)
2:27 "I played an Illusionist who ended up becoming the party leader." And making all the decisions on who gets what magic item and how they should play their character in combat. How long before he was fragged?
We don't insist strong players to play strong pcs. You can play a Face pc if you're not charasmatic, that's what the dice are there for.
I agree, though a very introverted individual may not enjoy playing the face.
And most groups require the Face player to talk while the strong player never has to workouts. I know by RAW they don't but it's how the game is typically played.
It's more fun and engaging when the player can actually role play out those talks instead of just "I'm gonna try and convince this dude to do X" and roll dice. That's such boring play to me, lol. I know going ham on RP isn't for everyone, but there really should be a base level of it.. It's a role playing game, after all.
@@MightBeCale but it's also a dice game. Many people all but ignore the dice/stat aspects of rping when it comes to talking. I'm not saying it's more or less fun but it is an imbalance and bias .
@@anthonynorman7545 The dice rolls are obviously still involved, I never said they weren't. I just mean it's more interesting to actually RP trying to persuade someone before rolling a persuasion check, rather than just literally saying "I try and persuade them" and rolling, which is what it seemed like OP was implying
ahhhh 5e. the only edition where a rogue can know nore about magic than a wizard, more about nature than a druid, and more about religion than a cleric. all at the sane time 😔
29:40 i thought errata said pretty clear, that MM would deal (2+lvl)d4+(2+lvl) + INT damage, not ... + (2+lvl)*INT
Didn't even need an errata. The PHB itself clearly says that the int modifier is added to one damage roll per spell. A spell with multiple missiles still adds it once. Doesn't matter if you target the same creature with all missiles, but if you split the spell to multiple targets, you have to choose one target for the bonus damage.
Same for War Wizard
@@jand.4737 so here Treantmonk abuses wrong interpretation) Thanks.
Not at all. This is what Jeremy Crawford says, "It's one damage roll, just like fireball, but unlike fireball it can damage the same target more than once." He's asked to clarify over and over, it's super clear that he's saying a +3 int means +9 damage with a single spell of magic missile on a single target. Check for yourself: twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/557820938402947072
When it comes to this kind of stuff, I tend to err the other way, but when making a guide like this, I can't ignore that the designers have specifically stated repeatedly that yes, you get to stack that Int damage with this spell.
You mean to tell me we should vote our leaders in based on intelligence instead of charisma? Bah!
I ended up doing the BSF as an illusionist when we fought a dragon. Level 6 maybe. Mage armor, dodge, shield. AC22 disadvantage . I was just praying my party would kill it before I ran out of spell slots for shield. I wasn't getting hit very often and the cleric was able to heal 1 hit a turn pretty easily. But if all three attacks got through I was going to be done. It didn't help that one of our party got possessed by a ghost and half the party was trying to subdue him while they left the wizard to tank the F*ING DRAGON! No that was not the plan. But when our Barbarian got possessed and had to be dealt with our front line opened up and I managed to survive to my next turn to start dodging with a cleric trying to keep me up.
Another fun moment was when we fought the BBEG and I locked him in a sphere of force. There is no save but suddenly his minions focused fire on the wizard to break concentration. I had a cleric and paladin trying to buff my wizard as I was making at least half a dozen saves per round.
The way you pronounce melee hurts my soul. It’s pronounced may-lay!