Hey, I just watched this video, and as an absolutely hardcore SMB fan for years and years now... you nailed it. This video absolutely tackles everything I both like and dislike about the game in such an ellegant and just nicely presented way, y'know? I legitimately think that SMBF is an amazing game and I'm so glad to see this game get some love on this platform after the lots and lots of shitty videos saying it sucks and such. You've got a new fan dude, keep it up!
Woah, the animations for that game are super clean. I mean, they're dirty with meat or blood or whatever. But they are super cleanly made. It looks very nice.
One thing that I never really found a good place to mention in the script for this video is the insane level of polish on the game. Everything feels incredibly smooth, particularly when it comes to the visuals. And the 18 different character choices have each been given entirely custom and thematically appropriate sets of animations and effects.
I found your channel through a great movie analysis video, now seeing this one, you are the first youtuber that I feel very capable of analyzing the artform of movies AND videogames. Congrats!
You have a great way of succintly explaining your points without being overly emotional with laser precision articulation; appreciate it. Another game that does this auto-runner that isn't designed for mobile is: Wunderling. A cute little switch game from 2020 with more focus on puzzle than precision platforming. Perhaps the zeitgeist of the unfortunate parallels between mobile and that style of gameplay could be a mispay by the designers. I'de be curious to hear as to their design philosophies on 'why' they chose to limit control, was it to make gameplay design easier with it being more compartmentalised? Was it infact for future mobile porting? Was it a way of suiting the random factor better? Many questions. Another point is the fact it's tied to the SMB "branding' like whenever you change core design elements of a sequel thats main draw of the first was the music, fluid controls etc. It's tough to defend it when it could of easily of been 'Bit-Trip runner forever' instead (the cynicism in my mind think the only reason it Wasnt bit-trip is because it wasn't as known, speculative I know*) . It's like if Dark Souls 2 had its combat system replaced with turn based combat instead of the souls combat we know. Yeah it might be an amazing game but it would be a different genre entirely (not that it's inherently a bad thing but if you replaced a mechanic that worked in 1 with something questionable in 2, that isn't the fault of the user but the designer imo). I think designers would agree aswell in how much any gameplay system would change in even 1 mechanic being different and the impact that has. This works both ways though in how gamers might say "oh this game would be so much better with X" when in reality it would break the game for worde. For SMBF they clearly built the game around auto running in mind so it'll break the game to take it out so unfortunetly there's no fix for the people mixed; maybe in Meat 3 they'll use the control and Music of 1 and level design of 2.
Pretty sure I heard the initial announcement and ignored everything about this game since then. Super Meat Boy is an all time favorite for me. Makes me happy to hear Forever is a more honest sequel than I thought. Might pick it up now.
This video really switched up my views. Now i just think that the game was really bad at marketing itself. And it surely didn't help that it was Epic exclusive.
Yeah, that definitely didn't help. You'll notice that's the only demerit listed in the intro of this video that isn't really addressed further along. I went ahead and sidestepped that, since that topic is its own can of worms and the game is available on Steam now anyway.
I just want to say, Im so happy to see your channel grow I remember seeing you on reddit with like 200 subs, this puts a smile on my face :) ALSO YEAH SUPER MEAT BOY FOREVER IS A FREAKING MASTERPIECE WHAT IS WRONG WITH PEOPLE-
Great video I totally agree! The game is so polished and perfectly addicting. You are always running in the original so this is a fun spin on the gameplay, it ends up feeling very strategic and rhythmic, chaining punches to speed through levels is so satisfying! I agree with your concern at the end though, the randomization isn’t treated much like a reward, it should be incentivized instead “beat this world without dying” types of rewards!! I’m sure tons of people don’t realize the potential of the random generation, that’s be great for races and competition!
Meat Boy is already a brutally difficult game, this one looks even more challenging with all the new mechanics! But looks SUPER fun. I dont understand why people would rate it so low. Some folks just hate sequels sometimes. I also understand not giving it long enough to appreciate it, you gotta have some patience and real determination... Excited to give it a play, thanks for the rec and the great analysis!
SMBF is one of the best platformers I’ve ever played, I absolutely love everything about the game, except the fact that the unlockable characters are ridiculously hard to unlock, other than that the game is amazing and I enjoyed every moment. I actually prefer this game over the original and I think auto running just fits the game and feels way more fun to play, it’s so SMOOTH. Pulling off intense quick movements in this game to get an A+ or S rank is the most satisfying thing I’ve ever done in a video game. This game could be a 10/10 if the characters were easier to unlock
Fantastic video. Did you find at all that the autorunning 'rhythm' helped make the game slightly easier where timing through hazards was concerned? I eventually gave up on SMB because I found certain sawblade configurations on very lategame and optional levels to be too much to handle in an unenjoyable way. I'd give SMBF a try if it weren't for the chance I'd run into the same thing, that SMB games just aren't for me. For reference I loved celeste and have 100%ed that game (apart from golden strawberries).
On the one hand, yes, I absolutely found it much easier to see what was expected of me in terms of timing for jumps in this game as opposed to some later stages in the original. And the auto-running should definitely be credited with that benefit. In fact, one thing I failed to mention in the video is that every checkpointed segment's set of obstacles has its own timer; because of that design choice rather than a global timer, all hazards that behave on a cycle are perfectly timed for traversal on every attempt. But on the other hand, the basic practice of figuring out how to advance through a few individual segments/chunks in the last two worlds (as opposed to working out the timing/execution) was slightly harder for me than in the original. For instance, occasionally I'd be stuck on a segment for a few minutes before figuring out that I needed to use a particular interactive object _before_ hitting a wall, as opposed to after. Then I'd beat it in just a couple tries after that. So, in that sense, it does feel like there is a small amount of 'puzzle platformer' energy injected into the newer game---presumably by Pulver. Hopefully the answer you're looking for is somewhere in there.
Smbf legit 10/10, People who hatin either salty/didnt try for long enough (discipline), Or didnt try at all and are bandwagon sheep. We'll keep this secret gem for just us, i suppose
What kind of meat is this boy? Be specific. YOU DONT WANT NO BEEF BOY. I will wait for the release of the impossible burgers boy unless this meat boy was pasture raised. PLZ CONFIRM.
Well, uh, there's no easy way to say this: it's definitely human meat. Edmund McMillen often explained the concept by saying Meat Boy is actually just a boy with no skin. But perhaps it will please you to hear that the game does include an unlockable Tofu Boy.
I feel like the art direction (second only to the game being labelled as an auto runner) may have had the most impact on audience reception. SMB is one of those games that (to my memory at least) had the aesthetics of a "classic" game on release (and don't get me wrong, SMB is one of the greatest looking games ever made, from its use of color palette to its pixel art to its character design, top down its a gorgeous and timeless looking game). I could be attributing some of these acolades retroflexively, but SMB lives in my mind under the Braid/Limbo/Shovel Knight camp of "prestige indie aesthetic" even at launch. SMB Forever is not a bad looking game in my opinion, but I do feel like there's an element more akin to, say, "upscale Newgrounds" art style to the aesthetic that feels a little less classic and a little more universal. I really think a lot of the reception might just boil down to the game just not quite looking as good as the game felt to play, and the critical reception suffered unduly for it. Great vid as always btw!
In truth, this is the first time I'm hearing that particular angle. I do see what you're saying about the difference, and there is absolutely a wonderful charm to the art of the earlier game. But in all of the professional and user reviews I've read or watched, the artstyle of SMBF is one of the very few things to receive almost universal praise. People seem especially enamored with the cutscene animations, which compare very favorably to the rough-hewn flash cutscenes of SMB.
@@TheGemsbok Upon reflection, I think my view of the consensus reaction to the aesthetic change is heavily skewed by reading Twitch chats during livestreams on launch day, which admittedly is like getting your book reviews from the "Judges by the Cover" School of Lit Crit.
I remember loving the original super meat boy a decade ago, I didn't even know that a second entry existed. Thinking about the auto running on this one, I think it will be a bit annoying, on the original, it was exausting and chaotic in many parts, and sometimes I just stop in the middle of a stage to rest my mind, on this one this will be not possible 😢 But I'm just talking without even playing it
14:27 but didn't they show off the first playable demo of meat boy forever at pax 2014? Not to mention edmund posted some screenshots of what the game would look like.
The demo at PAX Prime in 2014 was for the initial, simplistic, McMillen-involved, mobile-only game of the same name which I've mentioned just before that timestamp in the video. Not a demo for the game that ultimately released in 2020. You can find a concise summary of the entire timeline in the development section of its Wikipedia page: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Meat_Boy_Forever#Development_and_release
@@TheGemsbok so smbf 2014 and smbf 2020 can't be called "the same game" when two of those games were made by different people? Then does that mean meatboy forever 2014 was cancelled silently before it was announced silently? Yeah it makes a lot of sense now...
I just didn't enjoy the gameplay as much as SMB. I only beat the first three worlds but didn't really feel like playing more levels than I needed to get to the boss, besides some warp zones and some A+. The lack of control wasn't really my thing and I thought the level design was less interesting than the original. Every jump had to be even more precise now and the A+ times feel harder than they need to be. I also think the game lost a bit of its character with the design and animation changes. Your talking points are pretty much correct though.
This might be a good game (I don’t think so), but it’s a horrible Super Meat Boy sequel The problem with this sequel is how it just removed the most loved aspect about the first game, and what made it so difficult. The way numerous solutions could be found made it that much more enjoyable. It’s sad how they destroyed the main live of the game to go a different direction. They shouldn’t have named it Super Meat Boy and chose some other title. The expectation was obliterated and removed level replayability
What you've said in the second paragraph there is part of the second common misconception addressed in this video. There _are_ multiple ways that can be devised to traverse many segments in the game. This becomes increasingly true the further into the game one gets, and is only a rarity in the first couple light worlds. Such methods of traversal require ingenuity and precision on the part of the player to discover and execute. Even in just the 20-minute cross-section of gameplay in this video, there are creative/non-primary methods of traversal shown at 2:04, 3:25, 5:03, 6:04, 6:34, 7:00, 11:01, 13:01, 16:30, 17:10, 18:22, and 20:15.
@@TheGemsbok I don’t doubt there are many ways but movement is much less important due to the simple fact it’s an auto runner. Many people would consider this a totally different genre than the first game. I’m aware of the levels having different solutions in the new game and many of them requiring skill, but many reviews of the first game mention how amazing the movement feels and how enjoyable it is to control Meat Boy. It was by far one of the best things about that game, according to the vast majority of reviews. Its mind boggling they wouldn’t expand on that instead of removing it
Yes, many would consider it a different genre. In fact, however, it is simply a subgenre. Some platformers are 2D; some are 3D; some are auto-runners; some are auto-scrollers. All of Naughty Dog's Crash Bandicoot games include auto-runner levels, and nearly all of the 2D Mario games include auto-scroller levels. They are still platformers during those levels. At any rate, part of the inspiration to make this video was to explain why it's incorrect to consider the auto-running of SMBF an obstacle to the quality, feel, and nuances of its controls---or even to the continuity of those controls with the earlier games. I take great pains to showcase how incredibly different its mechanics are from the rigidity of most auto-runners for exactly this reason. Controlling Meat Boy in SMBF is granular, nuanced, and dynamic. There are tons of little details that, like in SMB, don't become entirely clear to the player until they become necessary in the later dark world levels. I didn't dive into them explicitly in the video, but a couple examples include the split-second difference between dashing into a wall vs. landing against it out of a jump, and the slight difference in vertical momentum provided by the exact moment (during even a max-arc jump, and with no dive involved) that the button is released. Perhaps what some of the negative reviewers actually mean is not what they say ('auto-running ruins the amazing feel of the controls') but rather simply 'I don't like auto-running.' But if that's all they really mean, there's no discussion to be had.
@@TheGemsbok we’re gonna have to disagree with one another. I do think SMBF is a great auto runner but I think that really limits the platforming freedom that many people prefer, which is why there’s been such a revolt in regards to the change to an autorunner. You can add as many different mechanics as possible to SMBF but that lack of free movement is just too restrictive. You point out many ways that it isn’t as restrictive as it seems but I think many of the additions made in SMBF could’ve been added without making it an autorunner. I do think the change was made to make air easier on mobile, for the pure fact mobile has the chance to make more money and autorunners are almost exclusively made for mobile. Both Mario and Crash are autorunners in their mobile entries. Even if the dev made the best autorunner ever (which very well could be the case) it was always going to be seen negatively, especially by the hardcore fanbase. I appreciate your content btw. You seem to put a lot of effort into it and I respect that
to me the end is nigh kinda deserves the name meat boy more for sticking with the main ideas of the game... this probably would have been better received if it wasn't called meat boy 2...
I must admit: this somewhat popular notion that The End is Nigh is a better or closer follow-up to SMB is an idea with which I strongly disagree. The End is Nigh is a great game, no doubt. In fact, I've been sitting on a partial draft of an analysis of that game for several years. But it has much more rigid, puzzle-like platforming than any of the three Meat Boy games. And it replaces the level-based progression and boss fights with a big branching gameworld. And it has a far more somber atmosphere, from the music to the darker art and story to the NPC ghosts. 'Running by default' is not remotely as big a change to the experience and feel of the game as any of those details.
@@TheGemsbok heres the thing... it's a precision platformer (a genre basically invented by super meat boy) and a lot of that precision is lost when you can't move by your own accord. that feeling of "if i had just moved a bit more to the right i would have nailed the level" is far more present in the end is nigh than in forever. I don't think forever is a bad game, but much like how I don't think carmageddon tdr is a bad game (as much as i may joke about that on discord) but it doesn't really have the same things that made the original special. it has different things. I didn't go into the end is nigh thinking "this will be the real meat boy game I wanted" I just wanted to try all of edmunds games. and sadly the end is nigh gave me the meatboy feeling that forver just didn't no matter how much I wanted it to. to me the biggest issue is that one game claims to be a sequel but changes one of the main mechanics and feels like a spinoff while the other game isn't claiming to be a sequel but is often considered to be just that.
I'm curious: what level of experience do you have with Super Meat Boy Forever? My understanding of its mechanics comes from having Golden God in it (meaning deathless clears on every light and dark level, and New Game + 4). From that position, what you're saying about it sounds very inaccurate---for reasons that are mostly covered in the first half of the video. That experience you describe, of making a slight adjustment to timing and duration of button presses on each attempt after a death to inch closer to success, is exactly the experience of advancing through a segment in SMBF. It _is_ both an auto runner and a precision platformer. I take great pains to showcase how incredibly different its mechanics are from the rigidity of most auto-runners for exactly this reason. Controlling Meat Boy in SMBF is granular, nuanced, and dynamic. There are tons of little details that, like in SMB, don't become entirely clear to the player until they become necessary in the later dark world levels. I didn't dive into them explicitly in the video, but a couple examples include the split-second difference in friction between dashing into a wall vs. landing against it out of a jump, and the slight difference in vertical momentum provided by the exact moment (during even a max-arc jump, and with no dive involved) that the button is released. As someone with full completion in Meat Boy, Super Meat Boy, Super Meat Boy Forever, and The End is Nigh---the outlier by far is TEiN, once again due to its puzzle-platformer-like level design and controls, overall campaign structure and progression, and tone and atmosphere.
@@TheGemsbok I played the entire first world on a friends house and had the exact same feeling as when i played rayman jungle run after having played origins and legends... because of that i never bothered to get the game.
This video is just cherry picking criticisms and creating straw man arguments to defend a game people just didnt like and didnt compare favorably to the original and it feels more like the videos author is trying to convince himself that the game is good
@@serraramayfield9230 he bases his argument off of several assumptions for why people didn't like the game. Its a typical straw man argument that people didn't like a game because they either didnt play it or blindly followed negative reviews but people give Super Meat Boy Forever a chance and found that they didn't like it and the fact that a video like this even needs to be made just proves that the game is a lost cause. Its cool that he enjoys the game but this video just reeks of him believing his opinion of it is the correct one and that everyone who didn't like it is wrong.
The particular claims that are targeted in this video came from a broad survey of user reviews of the game, especially on Steam and Metacritic. If you would like to see such claims in the wild, I would recommend undertaking a similar survey. But it is also worth pointing out: it is _not_ claimed in this video that negative reviewers by and large did not play the game, only that they "bounced off of" the game. This is based on the playtime statistics accompanying the Steam user reviews, which imply that most of them _did_ play the game---for a very short span of time. Those who have truly not yet tried the game, however, are the primary intended audience of the video; I hope to convince them to give it a shot.
@@TheGemsbok the video presents the criticisms of the game without any nuance or complexity in order to better debunk them. Your not wrong for why you like the game and neither is anybody wrong for why they didn't like it and that's very important to understand.
Strictly speaking, no one is ever 'wrong' about their overall evaluation of a creative work, because it is necessarily subjective. But we are not prevented from investigating what criteria are being used to praise or denigrate a work, nor from offering commentary on whether we feel someone may be wrong about how they're applying those criteria in particular.
So nice to find a critic who thinks for themselves isntead of hopping on bandwagon
Hey, I just watched this video, and as an absolutely hardcore SMB fan for years and years now... you nailed it. This video absolutely tackles everything I both like and dislike about the game in such an ellegant and just nicely presented way, y'know? I legitimately think that SMBF is an amazing game and I'm so glad to see this game get some love on this platform after the lots and lots of shitty videos saying it sucks and such. You've got a new fan dude, keep it up!
I like watching vids on this channel because I get to imagine that I'm actually good at video games like he is
Woah, the animations for that game are super clean. I mean, they're dirty with meat or blood or whatever. But they are super cleanly made. It looks very nice.
One thing that I never really found a good place to mention in the script for this video is the insane level of polish on the game. Everything feels incredibly smooth, particularly when it comes to the visuals. And the 18 different character choices have each been given entirely custom and thematically appropriate sets of animations and effects.
@@TheGemsbok yeah but the cutscenes are still cringe as hell. They're trying to be disney and gorey at the same time
@@pirilon78 That was a popular style when Team Meat was getting their start. The heyday of Happy Tree Friends was the late 2000s and early 2010s.
I really appreciate your approach to reviews, Mr. Gemsbok! You're always so fair, and you qualify your points unlike most mainstream reviewers.
Gotta admit, I forgot about this game while it was on EGS. Now that it's on Steam I think I will give it a go.
I found your channel through a great movie analysis video, now seeing this one, you are the first youtuber that I feel very capable of analyzing the artform of movies AND videogames. Congrats!
You have a great way of succintly explaining your points without being overly emotional with laser precision articulation; appreciate it.
Another game that does this auto-runner that isn't designed for mobile is: Wunderling. A cute little switch game from 2020 with more focus on puzzle than precision platforming.
Perhaps the zeitgeist of the unfortunate parallels between mobile and that style of gameplay could be a mispay by the designers. I'de be curious to hear as to their design philosophies on 'why' they chose to limit control, was it to make gameplay design easier with it being more compartmentalised? Was it infact for future mobile porting? Was it a way of suiting the random factor better? Many questions.
Another point is the fact it's tied to the SMB "branding' like whenever you change core design elements of a sequel thats main draw of the first was the music, fluid controls etc. It's tough to defend it when it could of easily of been 'Bit-Trip runner forever' instead (the cynicism in my mind think the only reason it Wasnt bit-trip is because it wasn't as known, speculative I know*) . It's like if Dark Souls 2 had its combat system replaced with turn based combat instead of the souls combat we know. Yeah it might be an amazing game but it would be a different genre entirely (not that it's inherently a bad thing but if you replaced a mechanic that worked in 1 with something questionable in 2, that isn't the fault of the user but the designer imo). I think designers would agree aswell in how much any gameplay system would change in even 1 mechanic being different and the impact that has. This works both ways though in how gamers might say "oh this game would be so much better with X" when in reality it would break the game for worde. For SMBF they clearly built the game around auto running in mind so it'll break the game to take it out so unfortunetly there's no fix for the people mixed; maybe in Meat 3 they'll use the control and Music of 1 and level design of 2.
Just had a peek at some footage of Wunderling. Hadn't heard of it previously. Reminds me of the Nitrome games Onekey, Rustyard, and Small Fry.
Yessss! New video!
Pretty sure I heard the initial announcement and ignored everything about this game since then. Super Meat Boy is an all time favorite for me. Makes me happy to hear Forever is a more honest sequel than I thought. Might pick it up now.
This video really switched up my views. Now i just think that the game was really bad at marketing itself.
And it surely didn't help that it was Epic exclusive.
Yeah, that definitely didn't help. You'll notice that's the only demerit listed in the intro of this video that isn't really addressed further along. I went ahead and sidestepped that, since that topic is its own can of worms and the game is available on Steam now anyway.
I just want to say, Im so happy to see your channel grow
I remember seeing you on reddit with like 200 subs, this puts a smile on my face :)
ALSO YEAH SUPER MEAT BOY FOREVER IS A FREAKING MASTERPIECE WHAT IS WRONG WITH PEOPLE-
Ha, I definitely remember those days as well. Thanks for the kind words.
Calling it a masterpiece is a bit of a stretch
Great video I totally agree! The game is so polished and perfectly addicting. You are always running in the original so this is a fun spin on the gameplay, it ends up feeling very strategic and rhythmic, chaining punches to speed through levels is so satisfying! I agree with your concern at the end though, the randomization isn’t treated much like a reward, it should be incentivized instead “beat this world without dying” types of rewards!! I’m sure tons of people don’t realize the potential of the random generation, that’s be great for races and competition!
Meat Boy is already a brutally difficult game, this one looks even more challenging with all the new mechanics! But looks SUPER fun. I dont understand why people would rate it so low. Some folks just hate sequels sometimes. I also understand not giving it long enough to appreciate it, you gotta have some patience and real determination... Excited to give it a play, thanks for the rec and the great analysis!
SMBF is one of the best platformers I’ve ever played, I absolutely love everything about the game, except the fact that the unlockable characters are ridiculously hard to unlock, other than that the game is amazing and I enjoyed every moment. I actually prefer this game over the original and I think auto running just fits the game and feels way more fun to play, it’s so SMOOTH. Pulling off intense quick movements in this game to get an A+ or S rank is the most satisfying thing I’ve ever done in a video game. This game could be a 10/10 if the characters were easier to unlock
I totally wrote this game off at face value. Now I'm very interested and I just bought it on g2a for 2 bucks
Fantastic video. Did you find at all that the autorunning 'rhythm' helped make the game slightly easier where timing through hazards was concerned? I eventually gave up on SMB because I found certain sawblade configurations on very lategame and optional levels to be too much to handle in an unenjoyable way. I'd give SMBF a try if it weren't for the chance I'd run into the same thing, that SMB games just aren't for me. For reference I loved celeste and have 100%ed that game (apart from golden strawberries).
On the one hand, yes, I absolutely found it much easier to see what was expected of me in terms of timing for jumps in this game as opposed to some later stages in the original. And the auto-running should definitely be credited with that benefit. In fact, one thing I failed to mention in the video is that every checkpointed segment's set of obstacles has its own timer; because of that design choice rather than a global timer, all hazards that behave on a cycle are perfectly timed for traversal on every attempt.
But on the other hand, the basic practice of figuring out how to advance through a few individual segments/chunks in the last two worlds (as opposed to working out the timing/execution) was slightly harder for me than in the original. For instance, occasionally I'd be stuck on a segment for a few minutes before figuring out that I needed to use a particular interactive object _before_ hitting a wall, as opposed to after. Then I'd beat it in just a couple tries after that. So, in that sense, it does feel like there is a small amount of 'puzzle platformer' energy injected into the newer game---presumably by Pulver.
Hopefully the answer you're looking for is somewhere in there.
Smbf legit 10/10,
People who hatin either salty/didnt try for long enough (discipline),
Or didnt try at all and are bandwagon sheep.
We'll keep this secret gem for just us, i suppose
Great video bro really enjoyed it thank you
havent played either of these games but they do look fun though
Thank you sir.
What kind of meat is this boy? Be specific.
YOU DONT WANT NO BEEF BOY.
I will wait for the release of the impossible burgers boy unless this meat boy was pasture raised. PLZ CONFIRM.
Well, uh, there's no easy way to say this: it's definitely human meat. Edmund McMillen often explained the concept by saying Meat Boy is actually just a boy with no skin.
But perhaps it will please you to hear that the game does include an unlockable Tofu Boy.
I feel like the art direction (second only to the game being labelled as an auto runner) may have had the most impact on audience reception. SMB is one of those games that (to my memory at least) had the aesthetics of a "classic" game on release (and don't get me wrong, SMB is one of the greatest looking games ever made, from its use of color palette to its pixel art to its character design, top down its a gorgeous and timeless looking game).
I could be attributing some of these acolades retroflexively, but SMB lives in my mind under the Braid/Limbo/Shovel Knight camp of "prestige indie aesthetic" even at launch. SMB Forever is not a bad looking game in my opinion, but I do feel like there's an element more akin to, say, "upscale Newgrounds" art style to the aesthetic that feels a little less classic and a little more universal. I really think a lot of the reception might just boil down to the game just not quite looking as good as the game felt to play, and the critical reception suffered unduly for it. Great vid as always btw!
In truth, this is the first time I'm hearing that particular angle. I do see what you're saying about the difference, and there is absolutely a wonderful charm to the art of the earlier game. But in all of the professional and user reviews I've read or watched, the artstyle of SMBF is one of the very few things to receive almost universal praise.
People seem especially enamored with the cutscene animations, which compare very favorably to the rough-hewn flash cutscenes of SMB.
@@TheGemsbok Upon reflection, I think my view of the consensus reaction to the aesthetic change is heavily skewed by reading Twitch chats during livestreams on launch day, which admittedly is like getting your book reviews from the "Judges by the Cover" School of Lit Crit.
I remember loving the original super meat boy a decade ago, I didn't even know that a second entry existed. Thinking about the auto running on this one, I think it will be a bit annoying, on the original, it was exausting and chaotic in many parts, and sometimes I just stop in the middle of a stage to rest my mind, on this one this will be not possible 😢 But I'm just talking without even playing it
14:27 but didn't they show off the first playable demo of meat boy forever at pax 2014? Not to mention edmund posted some screenshots of what the game would look like.
The demo at PAX Prime in 2014 was for the initial, simplistic, McMillen-involved, mobile-only game of the same name which I've mentioned just before that timestamp in the video. Not a demo for the game that ultimately released in 2020.
You can find a concise summary of the entire timeline in the development section of its Wikipedia page: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Meat_Boy_Forever#Development_and_release
@@TheGemsbok ahhh... Now it all makes sense... So 2017 is where it all went downhill then...
@@TheGemsbok so smbf 2014 and smbf 2020 can't be called "the same game" when two of those games were made by different people? Then does that mean meatboy forever 2014 was cancelled silently before it was announced silently? Yeah it makes a lot of sense now...
@@TheGemsbok thanks for sending me a link to better my understanding. My lazy ass would've given up after 7 minutes of searching for information.
I just didn't enjoy the gameplay as much as SMB. I only beat the first three worlds but didn't really feel like playing more levels than I needed to get to the boss, besides some warp zones and some A+. The lack of control wasn't really my thing and I thought the level design was less interesting than the original. Every jump had to be even more precise now and the A+ times feel harder than they need to be. I also think the game lost a bit of its character with the design and animation changes.
Your talking points are pretty much correct though.
I believe the games visuals seem a bit inconsistent at times compared to the original.
12:47
Swells of Meat lad Activity
This review made me buy super meat boy forever.
And the game sucked IMO lol. At least I've paid cheap.
I think smbf is ok. It's not a bad game. It just doesn't feel like Meatboy to me.
This might be a good game (I don’t think so), but it’s a horrible Super Meat Boy sequel
The problem with this sequel is how it just removed the most loved aspect about the first game, and what made it so difficult. The way numerous solutions could be found made it that much more enjoyable. It’s sad how they destroyed the main live of the game to go a different direction. They shouldn’t have named it Super Meat Boy and chose some other title. The expectation was obliterated and removed level replayability
What you've said in the second paragraph there is part of the second common misconception addressed in this video. There _are_ multiple ways that can be devised to traverse many segments in the game. This becomes increasingly true the further into the game one gets, and is only a rarity in the first couple light worlds. Such methods of traversal require ingenuity and precision on the part of the player to discover and execute.
Even in just the 20-minute cross-section of gameplay in this video, there are creative/non-primary methods of traversal shown at 2:04, 3:25, 5:03, 6:04, 6:34, 7:00, 11:01, 13:01, 16:30, 17:10, 18:22, and 20:15.
@@TheGemsbok I don’t doubt there are many ways but movement is much less important due to the simple fact it’s an auto runner. Many people would consider this a totally different genre than the first game. I’m aware of the levels having different solutions in the new game and many of them requiring skill, but many reviews of the first game mention how amazing the movement feels and how enjoyable it is to control Meat Boy. It was by far one of the best things about that game, according to the vast majority of reviews. Its mind boggling they wouldn’t expand on that instead of removing it
Yes, many would consider it a different genre. In fact, however, it is simply a subgenre. Some platformers are 2D; some are 3D; some are auto-runners; some are auto-scrollers. All of Naughty Dog's Crash Bandicoot games include auto-runner levels, and nearly all of the 2D Mario games include auto-scroller levels. They are still platformers during those levels.
At any rate, part of the inspiration to make this video was to explain why it's incorrect to consider the auto-running of SMBF an obstacle to the quality, feel, and nuances of its controls---or even to the continuity of those controls with the earlier games. I take great pains to showcase how incredibly different its mechanics are from the rigidity of most auto-runners for exactly this reason. Controlling Meat Boy in SMBF is granular, nuanced, and dynamic.
There are tons of little details that, like in SMB, don't become entirely clear to the player until they become necessary in the later dark world levels. I didn't dive into them explicitly in the video, but a couple examples include the split-second difference between dashing into a wall vs. landing against it out of a jump, and the slight difference in vertical momentum provided by the exact moment (during even a max-arc jump, and with no dive involved) that the button is released.
Perhaps what some of the negative reviewers actually mean is not what they say ('auto-running ruins the amazing feel of the controls') but rather simply 'I don't like auto-running.' But if that's all they really mean, there's no discussion to be had.
@@TheGemsbok we’re gonna have to disagree with one another. I do think SMBF is a great auto runner but I think that really limits the platforming freedom that many people prefer, which is why there’s been such a revolt in regards to the change to an autorunner. You can add as many different mechanics as possible to SMBF but that lack of free movement is just too restrictive. You point out many ways that it isn’t as restrictive as it seems but I think many of the additions made in SMBF could’ve been added without making it an autorunner. I do think the change was made to make air easier on mobile, for the pure fact mobile has the chance to make more money and autorunners are almost exclusively made for mobile. Both Mario and Crash are autorunners in their mobile entries. Even if the dev made the best autorunner ever (which very well could be the case) it was always going to be seen negatively, especially by the hardcore fanbase.
I appreciate your content btw. You seem to put a lot of effort into it and I respect that
No worries! Happy to agree to disagree, and always grateful for comments. Thanks for the conversation.
bruh
to me the end is nigh kinda deserves the name meat boy more for sticking with the main ideas of the game...
this probably would have been better received if it wasn't called meat boy 2...
I must admit: this somewhat popular notion that The End is Nigh is a better or closer follow-up to SMB is an idea with which I strongly disagree.
The End is Nigh is a great game, no doubt. In fact, I've been sitting on a partial draft of an analysis of that game for several years.
But it has much more rigid, puzzle-like platforming than any of the three Meat Boy games. And it replaces the level-based progression and boss fights with a big branching gameworld. And it has a far more somber atmosphere, from the music to the darker art and story to the NPC ghosts.
'Running by default' is not remotely as big a change to the experience and feel of the game as any of those details.
@@TheGemsbok heres the thing... it's a precision platformer (a genre basically invented by super meat boy) and a lot of that precision is lost when you can't move by your own accord. that feeling of "if i had just moved a bit more to the right i would have nailed the level" is far more present in the end is nigh than in forever.
I don't think forever is a bad game, but much like how I don't think carmageddon tdr is a bad game (as much as i may joke about that on discord) but it doesn't really have the same things that made the original special. it has different things.
I didn't go into the end is nigh thinking "this will be the real meat boy game I wanted" I just wanted to try all of edmunds games. and sadly the end is nigh gave me the meatboy feeling that forver just didn't no matter how much I wanted it to.
to me the biggest issue is that one game claims to be a sequel but changes one of the main mechanics and feels like a spinoff while the other game isn't claiming to be a sequel but is often considered to be just that.
I'm curious: what level of experience do you have with Super Meat Boy Forever? My understanding of its mechanics comes from having Golden God in it (meaning deathless clears on every light and dark level, and New Game + 4). From that position, what you're saying about it sounds very inaccurate---for reasons that are mostly covered in the first half of the video.
That experience you describe, of making a slight adjustment to timing and duration of button presses on each attempt after a death to inch closer to success, is exactly the experience of advancing through a segment in SMBF. It _is_ both an auto runner and a precision platformer. I take great pains to showcase how incredibly different its mechanics are from the rigidity of most auto-runners for exactly this reason. Controlling Meat Boy in SMBF is granular, nuanced, and dynamic.
There are tons of little details that, like in SMB, don't become entirely clear to the player until they become necessary in the later dark world levels. I didn't dive into them explicitly in the video, but a couple examples include the split-second difference in friction between dashing into a wall vs. landing against it out of a jump, and the slight difference in vertical momentum provided by the exact moment (during even a max-arc jump, and with no dive involved) that the button is released.
As someone with full completion in Meat Boy, Super Meat Boy, Super Meat Boy Forever, and The End is Nigh---the outlier by far is TEiN, once again due to its puzzle-platformer-like level design and controls, overall campaign structure and progression, and tone and atmosphere.
@@TheGemsbok I played the entire first world on a friends house and had the exact same feeling as when i played rayman jungle run after having played origins and legends...
because of that i never bothered to get the game.
This video is just cherry picking criticisms and creating straw man arguments to defend a game people just didnt like and didnt compare favorably to the original and it feels more like the videos author is trying to convince himself that the game is good
Okay, care to explain why his arguments are cherrypicking? Give examples and information, and we can start there.
@@serraramayfield9230 he bases his argument off of several assumptions for why people didn't like the game. Its a typical straw man argument that people didn't like a game because they either didnt play it or blindly followed negative reviews but people give Super Meat Boy Forever a chance and found that they didn't like it and the fact that a video like this even needs to be made just proves that the game is a lost cause. Its cool that he enjoys the game but this video just reeks of him believing his opinion of it is the correct one and that everyone who didn't like it is wrong.
The particular claims that are targeted in this video came from a broad survey of user reviews of the game, especially on Steam and Metacritic. If you would like to see such claims in the wild, I would recommend undertaking a similar survey.
But it is also worth pointing out: it is _not_ claimed in this video that negative reviewers by and large did not play the game, only that they "bounced off of" the game. This is based on the playtime statistics accompanying the Steam user reviews, which imply that most of them _did_ play the game---for a very short span of time.
Those who have truly not yet tried the game, however, are the primary intended audience of the video; I hope to convince them to give it a shot.
@@TheGemsbok the video presents the criticisms of the game without any nuance or complexity in order to better debunk them. Your not wrong for why you like the game and neither is anybody wrong for why they didn't like it and that's very important to understand.
Strictly speaking, no one is ever 'wrong' about their overall evaluation of a creative work, because it is necessarily subjective.
But we are not prevented from investigating what criteria are being used to praise or denigrate a work, nor from offering commentary on whether we feel someone may be wrong about how they're applying those criteria in particular.
And disliked, hail captain of the seas!