I so appreciate you putting clips of your work up for us who can't afford subscriptions. Some of us can't even afford the medicine we need. Thank you. * many of us
Ezekiel is not allowed to be a false prophets. Many Pastors and apologists are dependent on him. They currently build their end time theories around Ezekiel prohecies. Gog Magog, which current country conspires with which other country etc. Thre are long series and streams on YT about the topic and the incidents in Afghanistan give these pastors even more fodder to chew on. Do not disturb their channels, the created attention for them or their followers
I'm old enough to remember when it was the Soviet Union that was Gog Magog, and was going to trigger the Apocalypse by invading Israel. When the U.S.S.R. collapsed, the prophesies were of course re-tooled to mean something else, a process that happens over and over.
@@c.a.t.732 I hear you. I'm mid 50s and been an atheist since I was about 15. I'm getting so tired of hearing the same old prophesies used for whatever religion needs them to exert control or gather wealth or what the fuck other stupid reason. How can a religious scholar look at him/herself in a mirror when they are passed their youthful zeal?
@@c.a.t.732 I thought it was Gog of Magog, he was king of the city or land called Magog. Sometimes what you are taught from childhood sticks in the recesses of your brain!
@@jeneb52 I remember it as Gog AND Magog. According to Wikipedia, Gog and Magog appear in the Hebrew Bible, the Christian Bible and the Quran as "individuals, tribes or lands". In Ezekial, Gog is an individual and Magog is his land, which accords with "Gog OF Magog". I wasn't taught much religion as a child (thankfully) but I can remember the Green Lantern oath clearly from the comic books! ("In brightest day, in blackest night, no evil shall escape my sight...") It is funny, the things that stick in our brains from long ago.
This supposed dual fulfillment (Nebuchadnezzar and Alexander) argued by apologists is a 'prophetic gap.' Supposedly, there are centuries or Millennia-long breaks in the middle of multiple passages... sometimes in the middle of the same sentence. This is just another attempt to explain why a prophecy seems to have failed, but really didn't. They have to place prophetic gaps all over the place in Daniel.
@ mjt532, Yep. They think we're stupid. The eternal God is not bound by time, and if you read certain literal translations, the English is in the past tense for some prophecies which had definitely not come to pass at the point in time that they were spoken out - the creative word.
I was just reading some of Ezekiel, 25-33, this morning and it's very curious to me, that if you substitute Nebuchadnezzar everywhere you read Lord or Lord god, it makes absolutely perfect sense. That these books were originally propaganda and praise for Nebuchadnezzar.
The destruction of the temple but a lot of apocalyptic Jews thought it would be destroyed and Jesus seems to have thought it would be destroyed and rebuilt that Passover weekend
I think what is more interesting about these prophesies is that no later editor came and "corrected" this failed efforts. What we get is both Ezekiel missing twice (Tyre, Egypt), we see the record of this failure preserved. Which must stand as pretty good intertextual evidence for the age of these writings: i.e. they couldn't be changed because they were already in circulation among the exilic community and thus, couldn't be fixed via other traditional means.
Let me give you an alternative historically sound reason for lack of correction: Ezekiel himself felt exactly zero embarrassment at the fact that things did not play out the way he originally predicted. No one saw it as a "failure" in any sense because maybe his point wasn't to make a definite prediction but to talk about YHWH's sovereignty as the one who had the right to "compensate" Nebuchadnezzar with Egypt after project-Tyre did not succeed. What do you think Ezekiel will have thought after Egypt was also not captured in it's entirety? I propose he would simply have shrugged his shoulders & said "wow I guess YHWH did intend on giving him Egypt as plunder then" without thinking that anything was wrong about the fact that his written assumption about Egypt getting plundered didn't play out, or that it was the slightest stain on his prophetic credentials. It may sound counterintuitive to we mordern readers but the essence of Near Eastern prophecy was never about prediction of the future - it was primarily concerned with political declaration of aspects of the relationship between a deity & a king (or state), which is why Ezekiel's expected assumptions of the near future not coming true wouldn't have been seen as a problem. You can refer to my comment on an alternative interpretation of the command to stone "false prophets"
@michael apple, I hope you don't think it was a failure just because Dr Bowen (and others) say so. Nebuchadnezzar was pretty persistent (13 years) and he had spent 11 years conquering Jerusalem. Remember, he was going after both these cities because of their sins that God was punishing. Being at war for 13 years won't have done Tyre's reputation as the Soho of the Mediterranean any good.
@Humanist Reformation, I will need to check out the Greek for generation before picking up that point, in case what I 'think' is inaccurate. Meanwhile, could you look up 'generation' translated from Hebrew? (Not all of them, just enough to see whether it is used consistently in the Old Testament, and what it means there.)
There is more than one Hebrew word for generation. The one thst is similar to the Greek G1074 in String's numbers, is H1755 in Strong's numbers. Please chrck them out.
its a '' fan '' that fans the fire.. k33ping the '' great fire '' Lit . just like the caveman in '' quest for fire '' ..pyre - (fire) mid -(middle) , these tales also fan our '' inner flame '', stay lit
God's are a man made concept to control stupid people and it worked 😂😂😂 but now antithesis are gonna put a end to this great deception that we call Christianity
It's true that Ezekiel and Jeremiah predicted Nebuchadnezzar would conquer Egypt and it did not happen, BUT Ez 29-32 is end times. It is the end of Leviathan pharoah over world kingdom of Egypt and babylon. Neb was the king of kings 888 king of babylon, an archetype of Jesus Christ.
That’s the thing with religious people: They don’t have any standards when it comes to their own beliefs. For one, they don’t care about the *reasonability* of their own beliefs. They think they’re in the clear as long as their beliefs are *possible* . But this is a useless criterion: Santa Claus, unicorns, and the Flying Spaghetti Monster are possible too. In fact, Christians even hold beliefs that are *logically contradictory* (that Jesus was both born of a virgin and descended from David via Joseph, for example). You can’t argue with someone who doesn’t have any standards and who views unreasonability as a mark of truth even!
@ The Freethinker's History of Philosophy, No-one who believes the bible thinks that Joseph was the biological father of Jesus Christ. That's what people who DON'T believe the Bibile 'think' we believe. Jesus was descended from David via Mary, His mother. Joseph ADOPTED Jesus. This a picture of the spiritual truth that we can be adopted into God's family, becoming His spiritual sons. Acts 13 v 29 - 34. Looking back, because Judah sinned with idolatry, and were exiled to Babylon, God gave up on kings, saying, And you, profane wicked prince of Israel, whose day is come, when iniquity shall have an end, thus says the Lord GOD; Remove the diadem, and take off the crown: this shall not be the same: exalt him that is low, and abase him that is high. I will overturn, overturn, overturn, it: and it shall be no more, until he come whose right it is; and I will give it him. (Ezekiel 21 vv 25 - 27). That's what happened. John 1 v 49, John 12 v 13, Revelation 17 v 14.
I'm going to buy the book to make notes in, i am already listening to an audio of the book, but listening to Seth read this is great too! So glad to be out of the JEHOVAH'S witnesses cult and learning from scholars like Dr Bowen.
@@jeneb52 I have no channel. Spent over three thousand dollars on old watchtower literature to verify facts and eventually leave them. Learning about the great disappointment of 1844 and the Adventist movements, I learned of Bart Ehrman and the myth vision channel. Pretty much I’m an atheist now. Leaving watchtower and getting to this point has been one hell of a roller coaster ride. So much I didn’t know.
An army of locust was a common idiom in the first century. Josephus referred to an army as being locusts due to their destruction of all vegetation in the land. In Revelation the locust army has a king named Apollyon. The Ceasars of the Julian Claudio dynasty believed themselves to be Apollo incarnate. Nero was the king of the Roman army at that time. They're not not helicopters, they are soldiers who devour the land like a plague of locusts.
You added that meaning ,the bible doesn't say the things your saying the fact there are so many different versions of the bible tells me this is all a con job
@Taharqo.saved.the.Hebrew Joel 2 talks about an army of locusts. The locusts are soldiers who devour and destroy the land. The language of prophecy is symbolic, not literal. "The natural man cannot understand spiritual things."
Deuteronomy 18:20-22 New Revised Standard Version 20 But any prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, or who presumes to speak in my name a word that I have not commanded the prophet to speak-that prophet shall die.” 21 You may say to yourself, “How can we recognize a word that the Lord has not spoken?” 22 If a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord but the thing does not take place or prove true, it is a word that the Lord has not spoken. The prophet has spoken it presumptuously; do not be frightened by it.
Hebrews 3 v 17 But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness? 18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not? 19 So we see that they COULD NOT enter in because of unbelief.' That is, their time for trusting God had run out, evidenced by their actions (idolatry). Acts 7 v 54 - 60
@@chiaratiara2575 You speaking for this pagan jewish imaginary been who never existed in your head. Imaginary been never ever speak for itself but only in people's heads always in there's heads 😂.
What does the Septuagint say about prophets in Deuteronomy 17. And how do we know that wasn't just something that subscribe interjected because he felt like it belonged to be there. Kind of like first John chapter 5 verses 7 + 8, which didn't make it into first John chapter 5 until 1522 edition of the King James. At least according to my recollection. Because obviously some scribe insisted that Jesus Christ in God the father and Holy Ghost you're all the same person even though Christ said numerous times that they were not. That was a tertullian fairytale.
@44 Hawk, The difference is the time frame. Deuteronomy was written at least 2000 years before Christ. The addition to John's letter was 1.5 thousand years after Christ. All copies of the Pnetateuch were made with a great deal of care. Translating the Old Testament into Greek began a new era. (Still before Christ.) There are many other places where God reminds Israel and Judah not to make stuff up and say it's from God. This includes all the prohibitions of idolatry and other occult activities. There is even a moment when the leaders know that there is only one person (prophet) who is going to tell them the truth, and although they send for him anyway. It's classic. 1 Kings 22.
Wrong! Several aspects of this prophecy deserve attention and close scrutiny. The prophet predicted: (1) many nations would come against Tyre; (2) the inhabitants of the villages and fields of Tyre would be slain; (3) Nebuchadnezzar would build a siege mound against the city; (4) the city would be broken down and the stones, timber, and soil would be thrown in “the midst of the water;” (5) the city would become a “place for spreading nets;” and (6) the city would never be rebuilt. In chronological order, the siege of Nebuchadnezzar took place within a few months of Ezekiel’s prophecy. Josephus, quoting “the records of the Phoenicians,” says that Nebuchadnezzar “besieged Tyre for thirteen years in the days of Ithobal, their king” (Against Apion, 1.21). The length of the siege was due, in part, to the unusual arrangement of the mainland city and the island city. While the mainland city would have been susceptible to ordinary siege tactics, the island city would have been easily defended against orthodox siege methods (Fleming, p. 45). The historical record suggests that Nebuchadnezzar destroyed the mainland city, but the siege of the island “probably ended with the nominal submission of the city” in which Tyre surrendered “without receiving the hostile army within her walls” (p. 45). The city of Tyre was besieged by Nebuchadnezzar, who did major damage to the mainland as Ezekiel predicted, but the island city remained primarily unaffected. It is at this point in the discussion that certain skeptics view Ezekiel’s prophecy as a failed prediction. Farrell Till stated: “Nebuchadnezzar did capture the mainland suburb of Tyre, but he never succeeded in taking the island part, which was the seat of Tyrian grandeur. That being so, it could hardly be said that Nebuchadnezzar wreaked the total havoc on Tyre that Ezekiel vituperatively predicted in the passages cited” (n.d.). Till and others suggest that the prophecies about Tyre’s utter destruction refer to the work of Nebuchadnezzar. After a closer look at the text, however, such an interpretation is misguided. Ezekiel began his prophecy by stating that “many nations” would come against Tyre (26:3). Then he proceeded to name Nebuchadnezzar, and stated that “he” would build a siege mound, “he” would slay with the sword, and “he” would do numerous other things (26:7-11). However, in 26:12, the pronoun shifts from the singular “he” to the plural “they.” It is in verse 12 and following that Ezekiel predicts that “they” will lay the stones and building material of Tyre in the “midst of the waters.” The shift in pronouns is of vast significance, since it shifts the subject of the action from Nebuchadnezzar (he) back to the many nations (they). Till and others fail to see this shift and mistakenly apply the utter destruction of Tyre to the efforts of Nebuchadnezzar
I thoroughly enjoy your channel. I haven't spent much time in the chat or comments, so forgive me if you have already addressed my question. What branch of the family tree of the Baldwin brothers do you come from?
There is an interesting (& IMO plausible) interpretation of the command to stone false prophets advanced by some old testament scholars, according to which _that command was not directed at executing any prophets speaking in the name of YHWH but at polytheistic prophets advocating the worship of other gods in Israel and on that basis threaten a bad event or disaster (ostensibly expected to be caused by the pagan deity that's not YHWH); if that predicted disaster or bad event fails to occur, the idolatrous prophet is to be stoned to death, not exclusively because his prediction did not come true but because the prophet was advancing a polytheistic religio-political stance that was one contrary to Deutoronomistic Yahwism_ A fact that counts in favor of this interpretation is that the text in question never says (if I'm not mistaken & I remember correctly) never states that the prophet to be stoned claims to be speaking in the name of YHWH, it merely only says that the prophet _makes a prediction_ PS: This is not an attempt to defend Ezekiel (refer to my comment on the Josh McDowell episode on how 1st century christians, 2nd Temple Jews & Ezekiel himself thought about the phenomenon of canonical predictions that didn't come through without any sense of embarrassment).
Maybe false prophets should stoned. That's one way to get rid of liars and conartists. I once stated that if the only punishment would be death for every infraction,. after the learning curve we would have civil society. Mistakes could sorted out in jugement after that bye bye problem.
@@tsemayekekema29181) Did you read Deuteronomy chapter 18, verses 20 - 22 at all? Please do so, and quote the part showing that 'in YHWH's name' is expressly not mentioned. 2) Please show me the chapter and verse in the Bible, which states that false prophets will be stoned? Thank you.
@Daniel De La Noche, He should have known this one, it is so foundational. What the verses do not say, is how long between the prophecy and God fulfilling the word of the prophet. What is clear from the words of false prophets in the Bible, is that they tend to make light of dire situations, saying 'Peace, peace, when there is no peace'. God's response is that 'There is no peace to the wicked'. Isaiah 48 v 22.
This is your typical atheist dishonest exaggeration. I could see calling this a "failed" prophecy if NOTHING in Ezekiel came to pass, but to assume that because the prophecy was not fully completed by ONE invader (when the actual text speaks of "many") is simply dishonest. But I'm noticing this is a pattern with Mr. Bowen. He's regularly dishonest in his assessments.
...you Clearly have No CLUE, @CRoadwarrior, about the personal religious background of Dr. Bowen... Nor do you have the Faintest Grasp of the FACT that the Majority of us Atheists WERE former "believers" who read their bibles More-closely than the Average Religionist does -- and were Stunned to realized that their Priest, or Pastor or Minister, or Rabbi -- or Imam -- had been LYING to Us about what was/is REALLY in those 'holy books' -- and that what they told us about People of Other Faiths -- or No Faith -- were All LIES.
If apologists are sure the bible is true why do they feel the need to presuppose their beliefs about prophecy etc rather than approach their veracity with an open mind? If you are in line with the truth you wouldn't feel the need to close your mind to evidence either way. On the contrary you would love to engage in the evidence as it is the very source of your vindication. It is those that fear they are wrong that presuppose they are right and then shield their beliefs from open and honest scrutiny
@Derek Walker, People who know God and who have proved to themselves that His word is true, don't have any problem believing, for instance, that Ezekiel's prophecy was fulfilled. There was, eventually, evidence. The one we are waiting for, is the destruction of Damascus, which has so far not happened. Many other prophecies have happened. You've got to remember that people who are spiritually blind won't see even the physical evidence if they are determined not to believe, let alone the spiritual evidence, because God has absolutely promised mankind that He will not be found by man's wisdom. 1 Cor 1
@@chiaratiara2575 thanks Chiara. I fully appreciate what u are saying and I am definitely not wishing to insult Christians. Its just that many (not all ) Christians start with the view that prophecy can't fail and so it becomes impossible to disprove. So for instance if they believed that Jesus return must be fulfilled and he had said he would return in 2020, rather than say it failed they would say it didn't mean 2020. Whereas someone in a neutral position would say yeah it didn't happen. That said it is hard for non spiritual people to understand spiritual things as you say and it's great that people like you are good enough to take time to explain them. Thanks
@@derekwalker1114 Thanks for your gentle reply. Re-reading my post, it sounds a bit terse, and I do get tired of people who obviously have not tried to get to the nitty gritty of whether God could be real, and if He is, come to accept that He should, therefore, be right about everything. Regarding prophecy, there is a phrase in the Old Testament which you can search in a Bible app 'servants the prophets'. This is an important statement, because although there are hundreds of years (in the past) between prophecies and their fulfilments, late on in the Old Testament God says this. 'Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing but He reveals His secret to his servants the prophets'. Amos 3 v 7. Another important verse says, 'The secret things belong to the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong to us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law.' (Deuteronomy29 v 29). Then later in the Old Testament God promises to bring about a big change in His dealings with mankind through the New Testament [covenant] by which He will put His laws into the hearts of His people by His Holy Spirit. John 14 v 17. This is an important prophecy by Jesus Himself, that was fulfilled about 50 days after His resurrection [day of pentecost, Acts 2). But His prophecy about the fall of Jerusalem took nearly 40 years to come about. After His disciples were terrified by His death, the effect of the fulfilment of Joel's prophecy (Acts 2 v 16 - 21) is that they were empowered as Jesus had promised them, and some pretty amazing things are recorded in the book of the Acts of the Apostles. I know there are Christians who 'think' the era of such events is past, but it is hard for those of use who've had the same sort of transformation in our lives to agree with them. At the end of the day, Jesus said that unfruitful or dead plants or branches will end up in the fire as a natural consequence of their uselessness. This is a repeating idea throughout scripture, and anyone who neglects to make sure of his or her salvation by believing in the power of Jesus' death and resurrection, will not be saved from God's final wrath before the new heaven and the new earth are fully revealed to those who believe, who want to live with Him for ever.
@@chiaratiara2575 thanks for this Chiara. You make some very good points that certainly line up with the more widely accepted Christian beliefs. Although I may not share your spirituality but you seem to be a beautiful model for anyone who claims to be a Christian and any god would be happy to have u for a believer. You know what you believe and why and you teach people rather than preach at them
Sometimes we just over complicate what was meant to be discerned spiritually for such a time as this. Man becomes stuck in manly thoughts/wisdom... Just sayin. Thanks Derek, you are appreciated!
Nebuchadnezzer besieged the island for 13 years before it finally submitted to him. Then in 332 B.C.E Alexander fulfilled the prophecy in Ezekiel and Zec 9:3,4
If you wait long enough, just about any prophecy will be fulfilled in some metaphorical fashion. How many fanatical Christians have proclaimed through history that the anti-christ is "here". Yet the world merrily goes on and on.
What it is of Tyre today? Read Ezequiel 26:14...Exactly that! Nevertheless, the same science that for decades so eagerly fought to discredit the Scriptures is the same science that troughs archeology, is proving it's reliability... Now ain't that something! Please show me another alleged unfulfilled prophecy so we can have some quality learning time. God bless you all.
@Humanist Reformation, I also can't find your post about generation and whole world. So let's start with Paul's declaration to the Romans in 1 v 8: First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.' Don't you think he was in a better position to make that statement than we are to question it?
@Maciej Wnuk, Elijah was very special. He restored Israel to the Old Covenant as it was originally given. The only other person who did that was Josiah, king of Judah in 2 Kings 23. They both challenged the idolatrous practices of the people. When John came to public attention he introduced baptism for the remission of sins, that up until that time had been applied only to Gentiles coming to God as proselytes. John also claimed to the prophet announcing the Messiah, whom Isaiah had prophesied (chapter 40), and when he recognised Jesus, announced Him so convincingly, that two of his own disciples started following Jesus instead. John was like Elijah in his zeal and fearlessness. When you read Daniel's prophecies about the place of Nebuchadnezzar in world history, it's impossible (looking back at how Daniel's words have been fulfilled) to think Nebuchadnezzar had a duplicate .
These interviews are fantastic!
Love listening to Dr. Bowen.
Thank you for sharing these, Dr. Bowen is a fantastic interviewee.
Be very wary of Dr Bowen. His stuff is fascinating and you can easily lose weeks watching his and his wife's stuff.
😊
I so appreciate you putting clips of your work up for us who can't afford subscriptions. Some of us can't even afford the medicine we need.
Thank you.
* many of us
I feel so bad for you and so ashamed of so many fellow Brits who don't know how lucky they are to have the NHS.
Ezekiel is not allowed to be a false prophets. Many Pastors and apologists are dependent on him. They currently build their end time theories around Ezekiel prohecies. Gog Magog, which current country conspires with which other country etc. Thre are long series and streams on YT about the topic and the incidents in Afghanistan give these pastors even more fodder to chew on. Do not disturb their channels, the created attention for them or their followers
Exactly...there are great fortunes built around the narrative
I'm old enough to remember when it was the Soviet Union that was Gog Magog, and was going to trigger the Apocalypse by invading Israel. When the U.S.S.R. collapsed, the prophesies were of course re-tooled to mean something else, a process that happens over and over.
@@c.a.t.732 I hear you. I'm mid 50s and been an atheist since I was about 15. I'm getting so tired of hearing the same old prophesies used for whatever religion needs them to exert control or gather wealth or what the fuck other stupid reason. How can a religious scholar look at him/herself in a mirror when they are passed their youthful zeal?
@@c.a.t.732 I thought it was Gog of Magog, he was king of the city or land called Magog. Sometimes what you are taught from childhood sticks in the recesses of your brain!
@@jeneb52 I remember it as Gog AND Magog. According to Wikipedia, Gog and Magog appear in the Hebrew Bible, the Christian Bible and the Quran as "individuals, tribes or lands". In Ezekial, Gog is an individual and Magog is his land, which accords with "Gog OF Magog".
I wasn't taught much religion as a child (thankfully) but I can remember the Green Lantern oath clearly from the comic books! ("In brightest day, in blackest night, no evil shall escape my sight...") It is funny, the things that stick in our brains from long ago.
You guys are awesome I really appreciate you and every guest you have josh Is one the best
Great discussion, gentlemen!
This supposed dual fulfillment (Nebuchadnezzar and Alexander) argued by apologists is a 'prophetic gap.' Supposedly, there are centuries or Millennia-long breaks in the middle of multiple passages... sometimes in the middle of the same sentence. This is just another attempt to explain why a prophecy seems to have failed, but really didn't. They have to place prophetic gaps all over the place in Daniel.
@ mjt532, Yep. They think we're stupid. The eternal God is not bound by time, and if you read certain literal translations, the English is in the past tense for some prophecies which had definitely not come to pass at the point in time that they were spoken out - the creative word.
I loved hearing Megan shush Oliver. So sweet.
is there nothing that Dr bowen doesnot know ,his knowledge is awsome.
@claire, There is plenty that Dr Bowen doesn't know...
I was just reading some of Ezekiel, 25-33, this morning and it's very curious to me, that if you substitute Nebuchadnezzar everywhere you read Lord or Lord god, it makes absolutely perfect sense. That these books were originally propaganda and praise for Nebuchadnezzar.
Great video
Are there any biblical prophecies that came true beyond a reasonable doubt?
@Destroy the Confederacy, Of course! Hundreds!
The destruction of the temple but a lot of apocalyptic Jews thought it would be destroyed and Jesus seems to have thought it would be destroyed and rebuilt that Passover weekend
@@laythadrian5705 That was a rhetorical question
I think what is more interesting about these prophesies is that no later editor came and "corrected" this failed efforts. What we get is both Ezekiel missing twice (Tyre, Egypt), we see the record of this failure preserved. Which must stand as pretty good intertextual evidence for the age of these writings: i.e. they couldn't be changed because they were already in circulation among the exilic community and thus, couldn't be fixed via other traditional means.
Let me give you an alternative historically sound reason for lack of correction: Ezekiel himself felt exactly zero embarrassment at the fact that things did not play out the way he originally predicted. No one saw it as a "failure" in any sense because maybe his point wasn't to make a definite prediction but to talk about YHWH's sovereignty as the one who had the right to "compensate" Nebuchadnezzar with Egypt after project-Tyre did not succeed.
What do you think Ezekiel will have thought after Egypt was also not captured in it's entirety? I propose he would simply have shrugged his shoulders & said "wow I guess YHWH did intend on giving him Egypt as plunder then" without thinking that anything was wrong about the fact that his written assumption about Egypt getting plundered didn't play out, or that it was the slightest stain on his prophetic credentials.
It may sound counterintuitive to we mordern readers but the essence of Near Eastern prophecy was never about prediction of the future - it was primarily concerned with political declaration of aspects of the relationship between a deity & a king (or state), which is why Ezekiel's expected assumptions of the near future not coming true wouldn't have been seen as a problem.
You can refer to my comment on an alternative interpretation of the command to stone "false prophets"
TK might be right. If not I still think your reasons are flawed. Ezekiel is BS thats all like the rest of OT and NT Propaganda for the masses.
@michael apple, I hope you don't think it was a failure just because Dr Bowen (and others) say so. Nebuchadnezzar was pretty persistent (13 years) and he had spent 11 years conquering Jerusalem. Remember, he was going after both these cities because of their sins that God was punishing. Being at war for 13 years won't have done Tyre's reputation as the Soho of the Mediterranean any good.
My take on prophecy is history rhymes and always tries to top itself.
@Humanist Reformation, I will need to check out the Greek for generation before picking up that point, in case what I 'think' is inaccurate. Meanwhile, could you look up 'generation' translated from Hebrew? (Not all of them, just enough to see whether it is used consistently in the Old Testament, and what it means there.)
There is more than one Hebrew word for generation. The one thst is similar to the Greek G1074 in String's numbers, is H1755 in Strong's numbers. Please chrck them out.
its a '' fan '' that fans the fire.. k33ping the '' great fire '' Lit . just like the caveman in '' quest for fire '' ..pyre - (fire) mid -(middle) , these tales also fan our '' inner flame '', stay lit
It was probably just a word mistake. But you linked nebedkednezzer to Alexander. You probably meant Cyrus
they have offended the gods the earth as a living being will not tolerate them
God's are a man made concept to control stupid people and it worked 😂😂😂 but now antithesis are gonna put a end to this great deception that we call Christianity
It's true that Ezekiel and Jeremiah predicted Nebuchadnezzar would conquer Egypt and it did not happen, BUT Ez 29-32 is end times. It is the end of Leviathan pharoah over world kingdom of Egypt and babylon. Neb was the king of kings 888 king of babylon, an archetype of Jesus Christ.
That’s the thing with religious people: They don’t have any standards when it comes to their own beliefs.
For one, they don’t care about the *reasonability* of their own beliefs. They think they’re in the clear as long as their beliefs are *possible* . But this is a useless criterion: Santa Claus, unicorns, and the Flying Spaghetti Monster are possible too. In fact, Christians even hold beliefs that are *logically contradictory* (that Jesus was both born of a virgin and descended from David via Joseph, for example).
You can’t argue with someone who doesn’t have any standards and who views unreasonability as a mark of truth even!
@ The Freethinker's History of Philosophy, No-one who believes the bible thinks that Joseph was the biological father of Jesus Christ. That's what people who DON'T believe the Bibile 'think' we believe. Jesus was descended from David via Mary, His mother. Joseph ADOPTED Jesus. This a picture of the spiritual truth that we can be adopted into God's family, becoming His spiritual sons. Acts 13 v 29 - 34. Looking back, because Judah sinned with idolatry, and were exiled to Babylon, God gave up on kings, saying, And you, profane wicked prince of Israel, whose day is come, when iniquity shall have an end, thus says the Lord GOD; Remove the diadem, and take off the crown: this shall not be the same: exalt him that is low, and abase him that is high. I will overturn, overturn, overturn, it: and it shall be no more, until he come whose right it is; and I will give it him. (Ezekiel 21 vv 25 - 27). That's what happened. John 1 v 49, John 12 v 13, Revelation 17 v 14.
Mike winger made a video countering Aron Ra on this subject. th-cam.com/video/XUJrXnZSvT4/w-d-xo.html Starting at minute 32:30
I stopped listening when he started misquoting Ezekiel 26.
None of Gods prophecies fail,if it appears to of failed just means it hasnt happened yet and was meant for the end times.
I'm going to buy the book to make notes in, i am already listening to an audio of the book, but listening to Seth read this is great too! So glad to be out of the JEHOVAH'S witnesses cult and learning from scholars like Dr Bowen.
We’re related. I’m an ex-Jehovah’s witness also.
@@constpegasus Oh wow, nice to meet you; and so grand to get enlightenment from real sources not wanna be scholars! You have a channel right?
@@jeneb52 I have no channel. Spent over three thousand dollars on old watchtower literature to verify facts and eventually leave them. Learning about the great disappointment of 1844 and the Adventist movements, I learned of Bart Ehrman and the myth vision channel. Pretty much I’m an atheist now. Leaving watchtower and getting to this point has been one hell of a roller coaster ride. So much I didn’t know.
Santos Bonacci is also an Ex-Jehovah W. ,also a great listen , for a further look .
See 119 ministries, leaves of the tree of healing, zachary bauer. Davd hanotzari.
An army of locust was a common idiom in the first century. Josephus referred to an army as being locusts due to their destruction of all vegetation in the land.
In Revelation the locust army has a king named Apollyon. The Ceasars of the Julian Claudio dynasty believed themselves to be Apollo incarnate. Nero was the king of the Roman army at that time.
They're not not helicopters, they are soldiers who devour the land like a plague of locusts.
You added that meaning ,the bible doesn't say the things your saying the fact there are so many different versions of the bible tells me this is all a con job
@Taharqo.saved.the.Hebrew Joel 2 talks about an army of locusts. The locusts are soldiers who devour and destroy the land. The language of prophecy is symbolic, not literal. "The natural man cannot understand spiritual things."
Thank God we have stopped stoning and killing false prophets! It would be a massacre out there.
Maybe at first but think of later.
@@buzzwordy9951 Romans 2 vv 4 - 9. Indeed!
The ones that are caught still get donations.
People are idiots.
Deuteronomy 18:20-22
New Revised Standard Version
20 But any prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, or who presumes to speak in my name a word that I have not commanded the prophet to speak-that prophet shall die.” 21 You may say to yourself, “How can we recognize a word that the Lord has not spoken?” 22 If a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord but the thing does not take place or prove true, it is a word that the Lord has not spoken. The prophet has spoken it presumptuously; do not be frightened by it.
Or maybe it is all BS
Hebrews 3 v 17 But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness? 18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not? 19 So we see that they COULD NOT enter in because of unbelief.'
That is, their time for trusting God had run out, evidenced by their actions (idolatry). Acts 7 v 54 - 60
@@chiaratiara2575" don't watch the mouth watch the hands " miles morales across the spider verse
Excited to add Dr. Bowen’s book to my library. 🧐
Seeing Stavrakopoulou and Baden paired with Aron Ra was....uh, unexpected.
@@timetoreason181 It’s at the end of this video-the 3 promotional blurbs for Bowen’s book.
Dr josh Bowen best scholar you have on.
He probably meant a different Nebuchadnezzar and a different Tyre.
It is always useful to keep a spare tyre handy for when your main tyre fails.
@Bo Zo. That's a ridiculous idea.
@@chiaratiara2575 Oh.
@@chiaratiara2575 You speaking for this pagan jewish imaginary been who never existed in your head. Imaginary been never ever speak for itself but only in people's heads always in there's heads 😂.
@@chiaratiara2575 Only a fool in there heart would believe in imaginary been and supertious claims that never happened.
What does the Septuagint say about prophets in Deuteronomy 17. And how do we know that wasn't just something that subscribe interjected because he felt like it belonged to be there. Kind of like first John chapter 5 verses 7 + 8, which didn't make it into first John chapter 5 until 1522 edition of the King James.
At least according to my recollection. Because obviously some scribe insisted that Jesus Christ in God the father and Holy Ghost you're all the same person even though Christ said numerous times that they were not. That was a tertullian fairytale.
@44 Hawk, The difference is the time frame. Deuteronomy was written at least 2000 years before Christ. The addition to John's letter was 1.5 thousand years after Christ. All copies of the Pnetateuch were made with a great deal of care. Translating the Old Testament into Greek began a new era. (Still before Christ.) There are many other places where God reminds Israel and Judah not to make stuff up and say it's from God. This includes all the prohibitions of idolatry and other occult activities. There is even a moment when the leaders know that there is only one person (prophet) who is going to tell them the truth, and although they send for him anyway. It's classic. 1 Kings 22.
The Trinity is three persons, and one God, not one person. That would be modalism.
🤯👍👍👍👍
Just after 01:40 WHOOP WHOOP!
Are you a Juggalo sir?
Just askin'!
Wrong! Several aspects of this prophecy deserve attention and close scrutiny. The prophet predicted: (1) many nations would come against Tyre; (2) the inhabitants of the villages and fields of Tyre would be slain; (3) Nebuchadnezzar would build a siege mound against the city; (4) the city would be broken down and the stones, timber, and soil would be thrown in “the midst of the water;” (5) the city would become a “place for spreading nets;” and (6) the city would never be rebuilt.
In chronological order, the siege of Nebuchadnezzar took place within a few months of Ezekiel’s prophecy. Josephus, quoting “the records of the Phoenicians,” says that Nebuchadnezzar “besieged Tyre for thirteen years in the days of Ithobal, their king” (Against Apion, 1.21). The length of the siege was due, in part, to the unusual arrangement of the mainland city and the island city. While the mainland city would have been susceptible to ordinary siege tactics, the island city would have been easily defended against orthodox siege methods (Fleming, p. 45). The historical record suggests that Nebuchadnezzar destroyed the mainland city, but the siege of the island “probably ended with the nominal submission of the city” in which Tyre surrendered “without receiving the hostile army within her walls” (p. 45). The city of Tyre was besieged by Nebuchadnezzar, who did major damage to the mainland as Ezekiel predicted, but the island city remained primarily unaffected.
It is at this point in the discussion that certain skeptics view Ezekiel’s prophecy as a failed prediction. Farrell Till stated: “Nebuchadnezzar did capture the mainland suburb of Tyre, but he never succeeded in taking the island part, which was the seat of Tyrian grandeur. That being so, it could hardly be said that Nebuchadnezzar wreaked the total havoc on Tyre that Ezekiel vituperatively predicted in the passages cited” (n.d.). Till and others suggest that the prophecies about Tyre’s utter destruction refer to the work of Nebuchadnezzar.
After a closer look at the text, however, such an interpretation is misguided. Ezekiel began his prophecy by stating that “many nations” would come against Tyre (26:3). Then he proceeded to name Nebuchadnezzar, and stated that “he” would build a siege mound, “he” would slay with the sword, and “he” would do numerous other things (26:7-11). However, in 26:12, the pronoun shifts from the singular “he” to the plural “they.” It is in verse 12 and following that Ezekiel predicts that “they” will lay the stones and building material of Tyre in the “midst of the waters.” The shift in pronouns is of vast significance, since it shifts the subject of the action from Nebuchadnezzar (he) back to the many nations (they). Till and others fail to see this shift and mistakenly apply the utter destruction of Tyre to the efforts of Nebuchadnezzar
@Mongoose, Thanks for this. Good work!
I thoroughly enjoy your channel. I haven't spent much time in the chat or comments, so forgive me if you have already addressed my question. What branch of the family tree of the Baldwin brothers do you come from?
There is an interesting (& IMO plausible) interpretation of the command to stone false prophets advanced by some old testament scholars, according to which _that command was not directed at executing any prophets speaking in the name of YHWH but at polytheistic prophets advocating the worship of other gods in Israel and on that basis threaten a bad event or disaster (ostensibly expected to be caused by the pagan deity that's not YHWH); if that predicted disaster or bad event fails to occur, the idolatrous prophet is to be stoned to death, not exclusively because his prediction did not come true but because the prophet was advancing a polytheistic religio-political stance that was one contrary to Deutoronomistic Yahwism_
A fact that counts in favor of this interpretation is that the text in question never says (if I'm not mistaken & I remember correctly) never states that the prophet to be stoned claims to be speaking in the name of YHWH, it merely only says that the prophet _makes a prediction_
PS: This is not an attempt to defend Ezekiel (refer to my comment on the Josh McDowell episode on how 1st century christians, 2nd Temple Jews & Ezekiel himself thought about the phenomenon of canonical predictions that didn't come through without any sense of embarrassment).
Maybe false prophets should stoned. That's one way to get rid of liars and conartists. I once stated that if the only punishment would be death for every infraction,. after the learning curve we would have civil society. Mistakes could sorted out in jugement after that bye bye problem.
@Tsemaye Kekema, Please check out Deuteronomy 18 vv 20 - 22 to refresh your memory.
@@tsemayekekema29181) Did you read Deuteronomy chapter 18, verses 20 - 22 at all? Please do so, and quote the part showing that 'in YHWH's name' is expressly not mentioned. 2) Please show me the chapter and verse in the Bible, which states that false prophets will be stoned? Thank you.
Science wins over religion .
It's Deuteronomy 18. He got super close for something off the top of his head!
@Daniel De La Noche, He should have known this one, it is so foundational. What the verses do not say, is how long between the prophecy and God fulfilling the word of the prophet. What is clear from the words of false prophets in the Bible, is that they tend to make light of dire situations, saying 'Peace, peace, when there is no peace'. God's response is that 'There is no peace to the wicked'. Isaiah 48 v 22.
This is your typical atheist dishonest exaggeration. I could see calling this a "failed" prophecy if NOTHING in Ezekiel came to pass, but to assume that because the prophecy was not fully completed by ONE invader (when the actual text speaks of "many") is simply dishonest. But I'm noticing this is a pattern with Mr. Bowen. He's regularly dishonest in his assessments.
...you Clearly have No CLUE, @CRoadwarrior, about the personal religious background of Dr. Bowen...
Nor do you have the Faintest Grasp of the FACT that the Majority of us Atheists WERE former "believers" who read their bibles More-closely than the Average Religionist does -- and were Stunned to realized that their Priest, or Pastor or Minister, or Rabbi -- or Imam -- had been LYING to Us about what was/is REALLY in those 'holy books' -- and that what they told us about People of Other Faiths -- or No Faith -- were All LIES.
Is he lying about scholars on Tyre, or does he not respect the ones that disagree?
Has the owner of this channel read the clementine homilies ? Fully?
Deuteronomy 18
If apologists are sure the bible is true why do they feel the need to presuppose their beliefs about prophecy etc rather than approach their veracity with an open mind? If you are in line with the truth you wouldn't feel the need to close your mind to evidence either way. On the contrary you would love to engage in the evidence as it is the very source of your vindication. It is those that fear they are wrong that presuppose they are right and then shield their beliefs from open and honest scrutiny
@Derek Walker, People who know God and who have proved to themselves that His word is true, don't have any problem believing, for instance, that Ezekiel's prophecy was fulfilled. There was, eventually, evidence. The one we are waiting for, is the destruction of Damascus, which has so far not happened. Many other prophecies have happened. You've got to remember that people who are spiritually blind won't see even the physical evidence if they are determined not to believe, let alone the spiritual evidence, because God has absolutely promised mankind that He will not be found by man's wisdom. 1 Cor 1
@@chiaratiara2575 thanks Chiara. I fully appreciate what u are saying and I am definitely not wishing to insult Christians. Its just that many (not all ) Christians start with the view that prophecy can't fail and so it becomes impossible to disprove. So for instance if they believed that Jesus return must be fulfilled and he had said he would return in 2020, rather than say it failed they would say it didn't mean 2020. Whereas someone in a neutral position would say yeah it didn't happen. That said it is hard for non spiritual people to understand spiritual things as you say and it's great that people like you are good enough to take time to explain them. Thanks
@@derekwalker1114 Thanks for your gentle reply. Re-reading my post, it sounds a bit terse, and I do get tired of people who obviously have not tried to get to the nitty gritty of whether God could be real, and if He is, come to accept that He should, therefore, be right about everything. Regarding prophecy, there is a phrase in the Old Testament which you can search in a Bible app 'servants the prophets'. This is an important statement, because although there are hundreds of years (in the past) between prophecies and their fulfilments, late on in the Old Testament God says this. 'Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing but He reveals His secret to his servants the prophets'. Amos 3 v 7.
Another important verse says, 'The secret things belong to the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong to us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law.' (Deuteronomy29 v 29). Then later in the Old Testament God promises to bring about a big change in His dealings with mankind through the New Testament [covenant] by which He will put His laws into the hearts of His people by His Holy Spirit. John 14 v 17. This is an important prophecy by Jesus Himself, that was fulfilled about 50 days after His resurrection [day of pentecost, Acts 2). But His prophecy about the fall of Jerusalem took nearly 40 years to come about.
After His disciples were terrified by His death, the effect of the fulfilment of Joel's prophecy (Acts 2 v 16 - 21) is that they were empowered as Jesus had promised them, and some pretty amazing things are recorded in the book of the Acts of the Apostles. I know there are Christians who 'think' the era of such events is past, but it is hard for those of use who've had the same sort of transformation in our lives to agree with them.
At the end of the day, Jesus said that unfruitful or dead plants or branches will end up in the fire as a natural consequence of their uselessness. This is a repeating idea throughout scripture, and anyone who neglects to make sure of his or her salvation by believing in the power of Jesus' death and resurrection, will not be saved from God's final wrath before the new heaven and the new earth are fully revealed to those who believe, who want to live with Him for ever.
@@chiaratiara2575 thanks for this Chiara. You make some very good points that certainly line up with the more widely accepted Christian beliefs. Although I may not share your spirituality but you seem to be a beautiful model for anyone who claims to be a Christian and any god would be happy to have u for a believer. You know what you believe and why and you teach people rather than preach at them
Sometimes we just over complicate what was meant to be discerned spiritually for such a time as this. Man becomes stuck in manly thoughts/wisdom... Just sayin. Thanks Derek, you are appreciated!
Nebuchadnezzer besieged the island for 13 years before it finally submitted to him. Then in 332 B.C.E Alexander fulfilled the prophecy in Ezekiel and Zec 9:3,4
If you wait long enough, just about any prophecy will be fulfilled in some metaphorical fashion. How many fanatical Christians have proclaimed through history that the anti-christ is "here". Yet the world merrily goes on and on.
@@willchristie2650
The more intricate the prophecy the less metaphorical
What it is of Tyre today? Read Ezequiel 26:14...Exactly that!
Nevertheless, the same science that for decades so eagerly fought to discredit the Scriptures is the same science that troughs archeology, is proving it's reliability...
Now ain't that something!
Please show me another alleged unfulfilled prophecy so we can have some quality learning time. God bless you all.
"Failed" is a very harsh word. Can't we just say "qualified success"?
@jaxtraw, I agree, but mainly because the island-city of Tyre has been destroyed and not rebuilt.
@Humanist Reformation, I also can't find your post about generation and whole world. So let's start with Paul's declaration to the Romans in 1 v 8: First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.' Don't you think he was in a better position to make that statement than we are to question it?
Jesus called John the Babtist Eliah. Maybe then by Nebukandesar this prophecy allowes and mean somebody else in a simmilar way ?
@Maciej Wnuk, Elijah was very special. He restored Israel to the Old Covenant as it was originally given. The only other person who did that was Josiah, king of Judah in 2 Kings 23. They both challenged the idolatrous practices of the people. When John came to public attention he introduced baptism for the remission of sins, that up until that time had been applied only to Gentiles coming to God as proselytes. John also claimed to the prophet announcing the Messiah, whom Isaiah had prophesied (chapter 40), and when he recognised Jesus, announced Him so convincingly, that two of his own disciples started following Jesus instead. John was like Elijah in his zeal and fearlessness. When you read Daniel's prophecies about the place of Nebuchadnezzar in world history, it's impossible (looking back at how Daniel's words have been fulfilled) to think Nebuchadnezzar had a duplicate .
Because John the Baptist is the reincarnation of Elijah
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