Episode 037 | Racing Oils with Lake Speed Jr (Total Seal Piston Rings)
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 7 ก.ย. 2024
- Racing oils - they're everyone's favourite thing to discuss because they represent the pinnacle of engine oil performance. But what exactly makes them different from the everyday oils that you and I use in our daily drivers?
In this interview on Lubrication Experts, Rafe Britton speaks with Lake Speed Jr., an expert in racing oils. Lake shares his experience working for Joe Gibbs Racing, where he was responsible for the oil program. He recounts the challenges they faced in finding off-the-shelf API-rated oils that provided both high performance and durability in the racing environment. He goes into detail on the partnership with Lubrizol, a company that developed bespoke formulas for their racing engines. This collaboration helped them address issues with flat-tappet camshafts and the need for higher spring loads to control the valve train at high RPMs.
The interview touches on the fact that racing oils generally don't carry approvals like API or OEM, which leads to differences in formulation. These differences may include using different base oils, additives, or varying quantities of additives.
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Great questions, insightful answers! "There is no silver bullet, just trade-offs" is the highlight of the interview.
Thank you for sharing the knowledge and innovation.
Thanks! You're right, Lake has a depth of knowledge on this kind of thing that's awesome.
Lake Speed did Driven Race oils for Toyota Joe Gibbs, in Nascar. He won a lot of races on oil itself, by using MPAO 100 instead of VII, etc.
We lost volume during some of the discussion on operating temperature vs oil centistokes, would really like to hear that discussion again.
Yeah sorry that was an internet dropout - I'll see what I can do to recover the audio and transcribe it.
@@LubricationExplained It's not internet dropout, it's the mic dropping out from Lake because he isn't speaking so the noise gate gets triggered and cuts voice, it has a minimum volume it wants to see before turning on and has a response time - all for filtering background noise. A lot of "stop and go" talking will mess this up.
That was the best podcast I've ever watched. Excellent job.
Wow, thanks so much! Lake is very knowledgeable on this stuff.
I'm an electrical engineer with an unfortunate infatuation for motorsport. It's super cool to see the chem side of things, and how much is actually going on down in that sump!
Glad you got something out of it!
Another great Lake Speed informational interview that helped me understand all aspect of racing and passenger car oils.
He's awesome for this kind of thing. Enthusiastic and knowledgeable, can't ask for much more.
best episode so far, not much content out there accessible for racing lubricants that is talked about in such a chronological context.
Lake is the man!
I am 77 years old I worked in a oil refinery for about 10 years. With the new refining processes oil is so much cleaner than it used to be it is heavily (completely) dewaxed. It is practically pure these days so reducing detergents i.e. SP rating makes sense.
Holy Cow! Lake Speed knows how to make engine oil design sound exciting
VW 506.01 00W30, also known as LongLife2, was specially formulated over 20 years ago to accomplish the most demanding requirements for the Volkswagen Phaeton equipped with the long stroke 5.0 V10 TDi engine.
According to Ferdinand Piech, this 3 tons weight fully loaded car, should be rolling at a programmed exact speed of 300 kilometers/hour, during non stop 24 hours, with 50° Celsius on the exterior and maintaining 21° Celsius all over the the interior with all seats taken.
For this car that must started at temperatures as low as -40° Celsius and out-stand any other in temperature wide band, the computer use the various sensors to check oil degradation and oil quality to inform when you should change the oil, maximum 30.000 kilometers.
They used the same oil in other cars of that time for extra mileage appliances, and on those, the LongLife sensors could reach 50.000 kilometers.
Later the 504.00 and 507.00 had replaced all Volkswagen specs EXCEPT the 506.01 LongLife2.
More recent LongLife3 and even LongLife4 couldn’t ever fill such a demanding specifications because those were more oriented to lower price, (like PD replaced by common-rail), instead of the maximum almost impossible capabilities.
This 506.01 must accomplish a closed value of 3.5 HTHS, nothing under or nothing above.
Specs and requirements forced oil factories to use a minimum percentage of PAO and Ester, or should I say, forbidden any base oil under grade 4, HC forbidden to be more exact.
Now you know it, sometimes newer is NOT better.
Thanks a lot for this valuable info. I have an A4 TDI PD 2007 (pre DPF) and in the owner manual , besides 505.01, it's recommended this oil 506.01, but I couldn't find it anywhere. I think only Rotella had such thing. I'm currently use Triax 5w-50 with 1980 ZDDP. The engine seems fine with it, but didn't do any Lab analysis. Any advice for the future oil should I use?
Thanks for video. I always enjoy Lake’s interviews on engine oils.
Thanks! Yeah Lake is the man.
lake is a true expert in his field!
So awesome.
I think this info is useful also in "civil car discussion groups".
Thanks!
Great show. I've been following Lake Speed Jr. For a long time since Driven etc. I'm subscribed to his new youtube oil analysis channel, and of course, i enjoy your channel as well. Very informative video.
As a lubricant expert, it is the most beautiful meeting I have ever witnessed in my life.
I concur... these two experts really fired up about oil progress
I'm assuming the expert would say to use what the owner's manual says for your passenger car. The answer might change if it can't hold its oil temperature in the type of driving you do.
Thank you for such a great video
Pretty much - although if you make any modifications at all the manual recommendation might not be relevant.
Great upload, there's a bunch of information that not everyone knows, including veterans of performance engine development. The goal posts keep shifting, you need to keep checking which direction to kick that ball.
wow. incredible insights
As long as the additives package do not interfere with the cylinder porosity/ rings interface .
Looks like there is confusion between high rpm / high speed vs high loads , yes they are not the same
Awesome interview. I'd ask him what is the ideal oil flow rate, oil kinematic viscocity (in cSt) and it's relation to film strength and HTHS. This should be an eye opener to people who insist to use 0w20 oils when using pick-up trucks to tow boats etc when clearly a 0w20 under stress would be, far, far from ideal. IIRC Ford spec'd the Mustang Coyote V8 5w20 due to CAFE but recommended 5w50 for hard/track use.
There was a video here awhile ago where plasma cylinder coatings were brought up and iirc their surface is able to retain a higher volume of oil and thicker oils can lead to unnecessarily high oil consumption.
Not that you don’t want to run a heavier oil if you’re tracking your car but I’ve been running 5W-20 in my gen 3 coyote and for daily use the testing I’ve done has shown very little metal wear.
At some point here I’m going to try 5W-30 but at least from what I’ve seen 5w-20 isn’t going to destroy your engine.
Here's the video you were referring to: th-cam.com/video/ZhwKaNvgtgY/w-d-xo.html
@Xynos Tasos it's not an easy one to talk about because there are so many variables. The type of base oil, type of co-base, friction modifier additives etc all play a part. And the ideal viscosity is so dependent on load, temperature, surface roughness, and ring tension.
@@LubricationExplained true, but I'd like a general guideline regarding a specific additive package (e.g., a modern A3/B4 100 ppm Moly, 1000/1300 ppm Phos/ZDDP and 3700 Calcium). I'd like to have a formula to do such calculations myself as I don't trust the outdated owners manual on my car calling for Selenia 20k 10w40 API SJ. I'm seeking something more modern (+able to resist nitration & oxidation due to LPG).
@@LubricationExplained yup that’s the one, ford switched the recommended mustang V8 oil weight in the US last year to 5w-30 without explanation but they didn’t retroactively change it for the older cars. Maybe there is something slightly different with the engines but maybe those CAFE rumors were true.
In any case not believing 5w-20 would hold up for 10k miles is what sent me down the oil testing rabbit hole and from everything I’ve seen they work just fine. It would be fun to do a consumption test running 5w-30 but I’d need to fool around sucking oil out of the engine to get a handle on how that looks on the dipstick first.
Was wondering (overall) if a higher of boron would be a better for a turbo engine vs MolyB? And a higher Mag vs. Calcium.
Great conversation - I have typically run racing oils (nulon, penrite, redline) near exclusively in a track car - and high quality oils, sometimes boosted with additives (mos2, ceratec).
I'm wondering if there is any merit to engine flushes and/or running a lower quality oil to reduce excessive zinc build up caused by running high zinc oils consecutively?
Lake Speed calls oil additives Russian Roulette, you don’t know how it’s affecting your engine without scientific oil analysis to prove what you’re doing is good or bad. Oil formulation is all about balance and using a product designed for your application
Excessive zinc would probably manifest itself rather quickly.
Pro Stock oils stay low temp until there's a burndown at the starting line, THAT is when you know if you made a good decision on the oil viscosity, etc etc...
It would be interesting at the risk of a law suit to list and compare all racing oils Just the tech sheets as it would be great to use dyno tests but not necessarily practical. As a distributor of for an oil company that makes a full line of quality lubes including race oils we are as always welcome to compare ingredients. We do not have the largest marketing budget but have been blending lubricants since 1839 I would love to compare some of the more promoted oils to ours. Perhaps because there are no API .SAE specs these companies feel safe in making rather outrages claims
I wonder how much damage there products have inflicted
Does ZDDP and moly etc. influence bearing wear (e.g. rod bearings)? I know journal bearings should be in the hydrodynamic regime all the time, but some engines are flawed. Is it only HTHS above all for bearings?
Great podcast. I would only suggest that, when you have an expert guest, and he is having a longer explanation of things... that You as a host summarise a bit his answer to simpler and more understanding answer.
Otherwise you will have questions in the comments like... But but what is better for my engine 0/20 or 5/40 if I toe stuff.
The point of this is to make expert information more accessible.
Thanks for the feedback! I'm no professional interviewer by any stretch so it's nice to hear what can be improved.
@@LubricationExplained Oh yeah... and please suggest your guests to have microphone or earbuds with a WIRE connection.
Again... your guests don't know how TH-cam or a stream works...that's not what they do... so they pick up iPhone Bluetooth wireless stuff. Then You have all kinds of problems.
Again... I was really confused by all of this... we are talking about racing... but your guest is talking about oil blands that he uses for 40C application.
That temperature is never in racing...or any commercial application.
These guys supposed to fight oil boiling and foaming in their applications.
40c is sometimes a room temperature.
He should have explained: Does 0w20 stays that way at 300c? Are they using special additives to keep that oil stable at extreme temps? Would thicker oil make a difference?
What can we as viewers use and to look for if we have high temperature scenarios? Towing, snowplowing? Long highway mileage?
How to explain tables and different meanings on the oil boxes that we commercially buy.
Like in food... those tables at the back... saturated fats..27% is that bad? IDK...they are saturated so they are good...right?
Something tangible... that is your audience.
Your audience should end up with something tangible.
You had a great question... what do you see from racing to end up in commercial oils?
So now I know...0w20 type R... those oils have crazy additives...but still stay in emission regulations.
Wat if we don't use that? Will racing oils produce more carbon build up?
You see were I'm going?
These conversations have potential.
1st, Lake Speed knows how to do streaming and youtube, he's done it for years.
2nd read your owners manual, it will tell you what oil viscosity to use in your engine for what purpose. Example. My 19 corolla uses 0w16, but, if I install a roof top carrier box, then toyota recommends 0w20. My 14 chev Silverado, says 0w20 even for hauling.
3rd. If your really pushing your typeR hard, look for 0w20 with a high viscosity index (vi). That is a measurement for the oils ability to stay in grade longer, as heat increases.
Honestly, look up driven racing oil here on TH-cam.
@@dalehilborn691 Thanx
@@dalehilborn691 Agreed, different classes of vehicles require different oils under different conditions. Auto manufacturers can get you in the ballpark, but to get get a more suitable oil for your application may require some study. I *think* my 3k mile FL5 Civic, which I track a bit more than occasionally, needs a higher viscosity 0W-20 than Honda's stock oil for the spectrum of owners that they classify as normal. So, I'm using Pennzoil Ultra Platinum since in my unscientific test has a higher viscosity at 70f degree temps than Honda's and is formulated carefully. Am I 100% sure, no, but a good middle ground I think.
Awesome...thx
I would like to ask on race wheel bearing grease
Why am I so infatuated with engine oil chemistry & performance 🤷🏻♂️
sooooooooooooooooo............which oil should i get for my GR supra thats pushing 700hp lol
Motul 300V and must change it every 5000 Km or 6 months maximum .do engine flush using Motul engine clean before the switch and a cheap oil and filter to clean up after the flush .
@@marinerbc1 lol actually thats a lie. i just got a new 2023 gr supra and want to replace the factory fill with a 0w-20 with the best anti-wear additive package but this is during the break-in period. so far 400 miles on the car. it will be 700hp soon lol. Any suggestions on a 0w-20 with the best anti-wear package?
Redline
@@marinerbc1Why would you ever use an engine flush? Especially when using an ester oil and changing it so often? You are just wasting money and adding wear by running flushes through the engine so often.
@@nesmio7378 there was a conditional statement. ‘ before the switch ‘
Hi Lake. We so very much appreciate u. I've written several comments on other videos. But I had a question... And this isn't negative because I love what u do and trust u.. But I'm an oil nerd and have to ask. Speeddiagnostix..... How accurate r those VOA's? I have to ask because I use a lot of schaeffers oil and 'SD' had. Voa of the 15w40 micron-Moly. But the voa had the zince and phosphorus way higher than the schaeffers tech data sheet. Schaeffers has them both in that 1800 ish range. Where 'SD' had it closer to 3000 ppm. Now it makes me wonder what is accurate. And also I've researched Ceratec pretty extensively and 'SD' had a breakdown of 4600 Moly (modtc I assume?).. 2400 boron (which I guess is nitride even though the msds says oxide---maybe that's because Nitride is synthesized from oxide?) and then 1600-ish calcium and 800-ish zddp. If those numbers r correct it really could b a great Moly additive and boron. But I'm wondering if u really those numbers are accurate as well as the schaeffers. Thanks Lake..... Really appreciate it
I love Lake speeds videos but there's too much talking jibber jabber before he gets to the point sorry I can't do it you wear me out when I watch your videos