As a NSW VSCCS certifier, my rule of thumb is that if a caravan has not been upgraded (either by the manufacturer because the owner knew to ask, or by being certified later), it will be over weight. With some van manufacturers, you can ask for higher ratings on a van that is already registered but reasonably new and they will supply a replacement plate with higher GTM and ATM. In NSW, you then get an AUVIS change of records inspection to put the increased ratings on the registration. I'm also seeing other brand GVM upgrades being replaced with Lovells because Lovells have done the SAE J2807 testing (there are youtube videos about SAE J2807) required to be able to increase the GCM for many models of vehicle. For example, a BT-50 or Ranger can get the GCM to 7000kg less ball mass (3500kg GVM + 3500kg ATM trailer), but the 5-cylinder needs a cooling system (radiator + intercooler) upgrade to get past 6600kg. Without seeing the Axle Group Capacity of the van, I can't be sure but I suspect that the GTM and ATM could both increase by several hundred kg. Combined with a GCM upgrade, you could move some weight from the back of the tow vehicle into the van, maintain your overall current weight and still have some capacity left in the GTM, ATM and GCM.
Alot of great info here. I will pin it so others might see it. If you can send me an email to svedostrippin@gmail.com I will send the plate info back. I would love to find out if there is wiggle room and the possibility to improve our vans ATM and GTM.
@@SvedosTrippin Check the Axle Group Load Capacity (AGLC). It is what the suspension and axles are rated for, while the GTM is what they are registered for. There might be something else that needs to be upgraded to allow it, but GTM can generally be increased to AGLC. Assuming that 10% of the total is on the coupling, the other 90% is on the wheels, so divide the AGLC by 90% to find the possible ATM. For example, if the AGLC is 2700kg, the GTM could go to 2700kg and the ATM could go to 3000kg with 300kg ball weight. Rule of thumb, 10" drum brakes limit the ATM to 3000kg unless the brake manufacturer will provide specs for breakaway braking limit vs tyre diameter, which most won't. If the AGLC isn't high enough, then you'd be looking at replacing suspension &/or axles, as well as possibly reinforcing drawbar, etc..
That’s all well and good but has anyone thought of the fact that the chassis and suspension points and bolts are still the same as factory parts that’s a lot more strain on everything diff gears uni joints gearbox drive shafts axles bearings
Thank you so much for bringing this to the attention of so many people that might potentially find themselves in your situation. There are a raft of issues that caravaners face and, unfortunately, safety is a growing concern. I noted that several times you mentioned the relevance of compliance with regards to insurance, in this presentation. With all respect, if you find yourself in a situation where an insurance assessment is required, that is most likely to be the least of your worries. If the vehicle combination is being operated outside of specification and beyond what is legally required and an injury or death occurs due to loss of control of the vehicle, you could easily find yourself staring down the barrel of a culpable driving charge (or similar) and an almost certain term of imprisonment, in the case of death. And that's not to mention the fact that you'll never enjoy a good night's sleep, again. And if it's one of your own that you lose, I don't know how you process that. This isn't a compliance "thing", it's not an insurance "thing", It's about safety. And when you're towing a pig trailer that well and truly exceeds the weight of the tow vehicle, you're already on the outer limits of safety, regardless of the law, or insurance. Thanks, once again, for putting the spotlight on this critical issue.
As a fellow Aussie TH-cam reviewer, albeit motorcycle reviews this video you have made is potentially life saving information. I do many thousands of Kms a year on both motorcycles and in a motor home, I have come across so many accidents where the major contributing factor was poor set up. I would urge anyone watching this video to share it with others that may benefit from this information well done 👍.
What an 'eye-opener'. So many are in the same position without knowing. Upgrading capacities is not the panacea ! Knowledge is the answer. What you are allowed and what the vehicle is permitted is the answer.
From the U.S. west coast I'd like to thank you for your efforts in bringing these critical facts to all of us regarding (tow veh/caravan [trailer]/veh combination weight) weight to us. I am converting a single-axle cargo trailer to a tiny camper and hope to stay under my weight maximums. This isn't easy by any means as you certainly know. Thanks again for your contribution to caravanning safety.
As a truck driver it scares me to see and hear about the amount of people who are blissfully unaware of the information in your video, kudos to you for such an informative video on such an important subject. Well done.
Truck drivers know more about how a bad load effects the stability of a vehicle, they are trained in this and also have the experience to back up their training. They are usually supported by large companies with financial backing to maintain their vehicles and make sure they are safe. Caravaners and 4WD tourers are (often) much less experienced in driving with heavy loads. They also don’t always have the experience and finance to keep their vehicle and load maintained. They have often spent all or more than they can afford just to get their foot-in-the door and don’t have the luxury of driver training, proper maintenance and good eaility equipment. Caravan manufactures are also trying to build to a price point to maximise their market and to maximise their profits. They often don’t have spare money to spend of qualified electricians, plumbers and automotive engineers. Often their sales staff are just as desperate for a sale as the stereotypical dodgy used car salesman, and a lot of their sales staff are former/failed dodgy used car salesman.
@@SalvoDan I agree with you truck drivers know more about load restraints and axle weights, however a caravan (a pig trailer) cannot be compared to a semi trailer (a dog trailer) in any shape or form. They are on two totally different levels. Chalk and cheese. Even a grossly overloaded semi trailer (10-40% overloaded) will preform pretty well, ie; not get the 'speed wobbles', will still stop in a straight line, and while a little slower, the prime mover is more than capable of pulling the extra weight. This is something that cannot be said about caravans. You can get a semi trailer empty on the drive and 10% over on the trailer and, while not ideal, and to be avoided, is nowhere near as unstable as a heavy caravan. Going the other way, a semi heavy on the drive and light or empty on the trailer is quite stable to drive. Imagine joining three caravans together and towing them with a car at 90 -100 Km/h? Ridiculous, but that's effectively what a road train does, and does it with little to no modifications to the trailers and perhaps some spec changes to the prime mover, depending on what it is. Legal axle loadings on trucks are geared towards prolonging the life of the road. The actual manufacturer ratings normally greatly exceed what the the truck is registered to legally carry.
Good for you to bring this to light as many vloggers will not discuss this and some actively flaunt that they are over weight. My Old D40 was 150kg over before it was loaded it was too difficult to lighten the vehicle, So I sold it and bought a new D23 it has and will not have an abundance of accessories fitted for this reason and just a vinyl cover over the tub. With myself passengers, fuel and 240 kg down ball weight etc. I around have 250 kgs available in the tub. I am amazed at how many Utes are so overloaded even a light truck tyre upgrade can push your vehicle over by a small margin. Thanks again as I am planning doing the lap mid next year and this has helped me highlight this to my wife and kids. Keep up the good work.
Yes, many vloggers like to make you think you need everything and the reality is you just can't have very much. Next week we will share what we cut down too and the weights we were able to achieve. Might help the wife to understand what is and what isn't possible 🤔 Thanks for watching and commenting.
Thanks for transparency in this critical issues involving caravans and specifically full time vanners. I often wonder how people are carrying so much stuff and live to tell the tale
Well done guys! I know it was hard for you to do but kudos to you. Weights are such a challenge when you want to travel full time, you have the space for things but can’t have it. I had to get rid of my drawers, cargo barrier, winch, car fridge and swapped steel roof rack for ally to bring my car in and only just! I was miles over GVM before we even bought the van and had no idea! Will be gettinf reweighed ourselves again soon, thanks for sharing
Huge kudos to you & Mel for putting this on YT and being so honest and transparent! It would have been so easy not to put this episode up & i’m sure it crossed your minds, BUT travellers need to hear stories like yours! Well done guys 👍
Hey Brett, thanks so much for sharing what would’ve been a very difficult vlog to make. I really appreciate you guys taking the time to educate other unsuspecting caravaners on this critical aspect of travel and just how important it is to comply if you want to be legally covered. I’m also one of the sticky beaks who asked about your missing pride and joy only because I could tell how much fishing means to you, so I really feel for you mate ☹️ hopefully you’ll find another way of re-engaging with that passion for casting a line 🤞looking forward to part 2 of this very educational worthwhile presentation thanks again 👍 take care and see you guys next week 😀
Thanks Brett & Mel for sharing your honest concerns - it’s so important to ensure compliance and safety for your loved ones and others on the road - I’ve been aware of the high proportion of illegally overweight tourers for some time now and in fact a recent tragedy occurred where a heavily loaded 4WD/caravan and boat crashed on a downhill highway stretch between Wauchope and Port Macquarie NSW causing a fatality - this resulted in a conviction for the driver of four years and after he appealed was given an extra two years - not only has he killed a loved one but has a criminal record for the rest of his life - be very very careful out there.
yes. its important to get it right, and there are alot of people out there that are aware they are over but just don't care. We were blissfully unaware, but when we learned the reality we had to do something about it.
Congrats on this, excellent education for us all. Your honesty is refreshing and appreciated. We went through the same thing and was blown away by our weights. Have corrected it now but see so many vehicle/van combos that are just outright frightening with the gear they carry.
Yup, you can spot em a mile away, and you spot em all too frequently. And it's got alot to do with the vanfluencers making you think you need everything. We hope by sharing our story honestly we help the community out there, so glad to hear this feedback from you.
Great episode. We too have a BT-50 with Lovells 7000kg combined weight upgrade. Worth every penny to be insured correctly. However we still are very conscious of what we put in our vehicle n Van. So many out there questionable. Often thought you may be over only due to the boat and kudos to you guys for being so honest and sharing. A hard decision, but one so many hopefully will learn from. Safe travels, look forward to the alternative for fishing Brett.
Thanks so much for sharing Brett. As you said 'one of the hardest videos you've done'. We know you loved the tinny, sorry that you guys had to let it go, but no option for safety/compliace reasons. The vid was really informative and what a great help Cam was. Seemed like he really cared & not a cowboy business. You've had some time to get used to the tinny gone, so hope it's been a bit easier the last few weeks. Safe travels, see you next week for part 2 ❤
Thanks Lyn. Yeah sucks to see the Tinny go. But I want to be honest and open with everyone and share not only the highs but also the lows so I needed to make this vid as much as I diddnt want to. We do have something in the works re. Getting on the water so stay tuned.
Great video. And what a professional Cam and his business are - I’ll certainly be using his services if they’re ever in WA. Good luck to all of you guys.
We were weighed too. Overweight but just by a smidge. We were more overweight on rear axle. Changing to a Ute or LC wouldn’t fix the issue unless we paid for a big upgrade so we looked at patrol as the rear axle load is bigger. It’s a big headache but great you are talking about it as so many combinations are illegal out there on the road 😊
That's so true, I hope we can bring attention to the issue so people think about making sure they get it right. I don't want anyone out there finding out they are uninsured after an accident, it would be devistating.
OMG such an amazing video. You both should be commended for your openness and dam right common sense in firstly reviewing your situation and then very difficult decisions to address the issues. Im very sorry for you for having to make the forced changes but to me this video can do more for Caravan safety around Australia than anything else Ive watched. If I'm travelling with the right weights that makes it safer for me and importantly those around me on the road. Many of the comments written also add a great source of info to this problem A huge thank you for this.
Well done to you guys. We’ did a lap a year ago and couldn’t believe how many people were overweight. And by a lot more than you guys. I recon 90 percent of people with boats are over. As a you tuber it’s great to see your activity trying to put across the wright message and do the right thing. I have commented a few times on other channels about weight. No response. So well done to you. Hope to see you on the road one day.
yes, many "influencers" make it look like you can have everything and are part of the problem. We wanted to share this experience and not sweep it under the rug. Thanks for watching and your kind comment.
There is another part to this that needs to be considered. Watched countless TH-cam videos of these 3.5ton utes that when they have been towing large vans (up near 3ton loaded) that either the transmission or engines have died, with a cost of up to $10000 to repair. That is another issue with these light weight utes.
We are hearing you, we just went down that road one month ago. And we were equally surprised although we are just a couple with no kids, no toys carrying around etc. We also purposely filled caravan and car to its maximum just before the weighing appointment to see if that would be still legal. Sure enough we were over. While we sort of expected it we still were surprised because there was so much storage space left in both car and caravan that we could have utilised. One tip: check your pantry. There is lots of heavy stuff in there that you might carry with you 'just in case'. Wow ... how much pasta and rice does someone really need? Plus all those other things that are hiding there, often in heavy jars. We also recently got a Soda Maker (light appliance) to not having to carry loads of water bottles and soft drinks with us. I mean we have the water tanks full ... right? Why adding another 10-20 kg to car/caravan? Full-time caravanning means starting to think outside the box. Happy travels, looking forward to part 2 of the video.
thanks for watching and your thoughtful comment. We did a massive clean out as you suggested and cleared out our pantry as well as everything and I mean everything else. C is for Compromise these days, haha. Hopefully in part 2 we will share a lot of weight saving ideas and demonstrate how little you can really have, I expect it will shock people.
@SvedosTrippin absolutely 💯. Even with our fully composite caravan we have to comprise. Being able to stay offgrid longer with lots of water and power reduces the payload significantly.
Thanks for the interesting video, in North America we have lots of weigh scales for commercial vehicles but none for RV’s! I will guess that most trailers, caravans and tow vehicles are overweight. I have a heavy duty tow vehicle and a 5th wheel trailer which I try to keep to a limit what I carry in them, unless I go through a commercial scale I will never know.
That is great for you guys. Here in Australia, insurance agencies will use an over weight van as a way outvof honouring insurance claims as will the van manufacturers on any warranty claims. Very strict here in Australia.
@@SvedosTrippin i noticed that when I was over the other year before Covid. I drove a camper van from Brisbane back to Adelaide, nothing wrong with being strict on weights.
The majority of police weighing of vehicles here in the USA is of commercial vehicles. But, it is good to try to get somewhat close. I do like having dual axles on the trailer, giving a little of redundancy in case of a blowout. One thing that is common here in the USA are Sway Bars or Equalizer Bars. Essentially they transfer weight from the rear axle of the vehicle to the front axle of the vehicle, although they do toss stresses on the vehicle around a bit.
yeah, we have something similar here called a weight distribution hitch. many people run them, would of helped with our problem but they also weigh 20KG's which is on the van so we opted not to go down that path.
I have a bit to do with tucks and therefore I don't really like caravans. I take my hat off to you, you would be one of the few who know or care about this, let alone fix the problem and make a video of it.
Thank you, means alot. I feel a bit of responsibility as some one that encourages people to get out and travel which is why i diddnt want to sweep this under the rug but rather share it and help educate people.
It’s interesting travelling around Australia and we see so many people with boats/trailers on top of their roof or canopy, big bull bar on the front and towing a caravan and I wonder how they are doing it? Thanks for you post and frankness. I’ve done none of that and when got weighed the car was just under by 100kgs fully loaded
That’s a great way of bringing the subject of weights to the attention of fellow caravan owners. Thank you. We have an issue with our Pajero being unable to exceed 250kg of towball download. Fortunately we are in the position to be able to replace the car with a Nissan Patrol, with 500kg GVM upgrade. If our options were limited to keeping the car, we would be selling the van and buying something that isn’t really what we want
Very educational & informative! Sad about the tinny as you love your fishing! But Safety First! Still lots more things to see & do on your Aussie Adventure. Stay safe❣️Look forward to your next Vlog.🥰
Thanks for sharing I am in the process of buying my second van. Have never paid attention to the weight always eyeballed the weight distribution and off we go. I am more aware now and plan on doing the right thing this time. We will use this mainly for holiday camping. We are not at the point of big road trips around the country yet. I have a question about the water. When departing home. Will it be better to have less water in the tanks then at the destination add or just hookup to camp supply? I also used to drain the water when I am on my way back home leaving just a small amount in the tank to keep it wet inside and not sitting at home with a full tank possibly for months. Thanks for your comments.
@hentiebeukes5319 Hi mate. If it's with in your capacity I find it.better to travel with water tanks full. This is because the tanks are low on the van and having more weight down low improves handling. I would suggest either travel full or empty, not half full as the sloshing around can impact handling. Good luck with it all.
Yep weights are such a complicated issue. With our coaster it’s hard even to get proper numbers of what we’re allowed. In general if we fill everything (water tanks, fuel, jerrys, big grocery load) for a stint in the wops we are over. So planning is everything for us, travel with water tank levels low, do our shop as close as possible to where we are staying, or shop more often where possible. Our main issue is because our coasters gvm is down graded so it can be driven on a car license, that extra 500kg makes all the difference. I think if we keep the coaster a gvm upgrade (and license upgrade) will be in our future. I’d love to see a legal challenge to a insurance company that rejected a claim based on tanks being full if they can’t prove that they are. I think American pickups amd small trucks are gonna take over this lifestyle. And you don’t need to spend 100-150k for ram or Silverado. Can get an older Isuzu 4x4 truck for less than 50k, set up the tray for what you want amd never have a weight concern again. (I was watching an ex rural fire truck go through pickles, full service history and something stupid like 40000km, and it sold for 45k Or an older American truck, still great for towing and often more reliable because they don’t have all the egr and dpf issues modern diesels have.
agree trucks and yank tanks are the future for sure, with all this regulation now in play. they used to tow 4 tonn with a blood old falcon back in the day. thanks for watching and commenting.
Chin up mate. Well done to you guys for rectifying your problem. We did our lap last year “legally “. I estimate around 60 to 70 percent are over weight in some way. There is no way a small 4wd duel cab with a canopy and a 3.5 ton van on the back can be under weight let along have a tinny, bikes, kids etc etc. you can spot them a mile away. Rear end off the tow vehicle dragging its arse along the ground. Unfortunately the only way you can get around this is have nothing in the canopy or better still no canopy or upgrade to something with big weight numbers and spend 150k or more. We have a jmacx 4495 gvm upgrade with rear axle at 2850, canopy but no boat. We are just under fully loaded. I’m sure you guys will still enjoy your travels without the tinny and hope this video helps others to understand. Hope to catch you on a fishing charter one day Well done.
What we are seeing here is THE biggest problem with Caravans generally. Almost without exception Caravan travelers are PLANNING to run, too close to the limits with no margin for error. As a result they end up over weight, in the majortity of cases and not by a small amount. . 250Kg over weight is not a small amount. . People need to STOP thinking they can buy the biggest caravan the vehicle will tow. If you are looking for a GVM upgrade, you need to take a long hard look at what you are trying to do and your vehicle and caravan choices. . Remember too that the towing capacities on passenger cars are for, "smooth improved surfaces" and not necessarily at highway speeds. . People also need to look at towing with small trucks rather than passenger cars. They may find things more comfortable and cheaper in the long run. . Remember in heavy transport, many companies weigh their vehicles EVERY TIME the vehicle leaves the yard AND they usually have some margin for error built into their loading plans.
Great vid, just spoke to my son who worked for QLD police for 25yrs, he had some horrible stories, one thing he did say is that they DO check all the weights of vehicles involved if there is an accident involving caravan, motor homes especially. And insurance companies love it when they know the vehicle was overloaded.
And this is why it's important to get it right, and we wanted to share our story. So many people out there might not even be aware they are overloaded. They think they can be like the vanfluencers out there who have everything.
Rule of thumb I got told when I first started caravanning: The loaded weight of the caravan should not exceed the loaded weight of the towing vehicle regardless of the manufacturer’s stated towing capacity. Makes pretty good sense to me but I get very nervous seeing some of the very obviously out of balance rigs. It’s the reason I always stay out of the way of popular spots during school holidays and sit tight until they all go back home before I hit the road again 😂
Great video - here in the USA I suspect at least 50% - probably much more - of the folks pulling trailers (caravans) are probably overweight. There is such a push toward making them lightweight so they can sell to a wider audience, but if you try to bring any serious gear with you you are going to exceed the GVWR. That was a very detailed weighing - nice. Thanks for making this.
Your welcome, thanks for watching and commenting. Here in aus there has been alot of focus on van weights with police blitz targeting it. And still we estimate 70% are over. I dare say in thr USA where there is less focus on weights, that your numbers would be higher.
trip in a van have a significant larger amount of funds to play with lol. We can barely afford to run our 1 vehicle. thanks for watching and commenting.
@@SvedosTrippin Apologies, I meant that comment sarcastically in regards to having two cars. It would be a financial and logistical nightmare. Probably only worth it if you hate travelling with your partner 😜
Excellent and honest, one detail you didn't reveal was, what was the tow ball weight exerted by your caravan? That figure can vary considerably based on how the caravan is balanced and as your friend pointed out you have measure it at the ride height on your vehicle.
The report is in the video, you can see the TBM on the report if your interested. I also think we did briefly talk about the TBM. Thanks for watching, hope it was helpful.
There really should be a licence mandatory towing competency certification requirement for anyone towing >2T which includes solid training on weights and loads etc.
It wouldn't hurt, so many people out there don't even know what the acronyms mean. But the sellers don't care, they will happily sell a 3.5tonn van to a dual cab Ute.
Good video and good on you for bringing up the rear axle weight. It seems every other video I have seen ignores the rear axle weight and it's so easy to get over that one once hitched. I have started to weight my whole setup on a local weighbridge when we go for longer camps with the caravan attached so i can see what that rear axle is doing and also the GCM.
Thanks for watching. I thinknthe reason they don't bring it up is they are probably over, look at their set ups. If the canopy is full it's likely going to be over. But everyone uses the vanfluencers as a guide and they think if they have a full canopy I can too. We did, and look where it got us... We hope by sharing our experiences we will help others get it right.
@SvedosTrippin basically , if you get involved in an accident, and found faulty in any manner. And a human life has been lost or seriously injured or mamed. You are responsible, and I guarantee the book of LAW will be thrown at you. All along whilst you are NOT insured. In any manner. 3rd party inclusive. . You are doing a good thing m8. Be vocal
@@SvedosTrippingot to love drone fishing. I just did a week on Straddie was epic fishing. Wow over 50k views. Awesome you deserve ever viewer and more ❤
Very economical fix would be buy a used Iveco Daily Double cab. I towed a fifth wheeler and plenty of room for passengers and gear on the tray. Good luck.
Trucks are in my opinion the way of the future, if we ever find our selves wealthy enough to build a nice truck we absolutely would. I'm some what jealous of elnicks new rig that for sure.
Thanks for a great video, I think caravan sales people could advise people better when buying and I think we can get by with smaller caravans than we think we need. A smaller van would allow the tinny to come back.
@@downanddirty6899 Very correct and also seems a little out of place to this small thread. Did you mean to put it in as some kind of rebuttal to what has already been said, Or an original comment?
The problem is widespread, caravan manufacturers need to weigh the van before options , and after some do and be transparent, many tell the customer what they want to hear. Customers all need to be realistic about what they choose to pack & option, big coffee machines,washing machines large fridges large water capacity it is very difficult to keep legal add a boat outboard no way.
I've watched a few of these caravan weighing videos and one thing I have noticed with those mobile load cells is they never seem to counteract the fact that when one set of axles is up on the load cell, the other axle of the vehicle is quite a bit lower on the ground. Being level is crucial and having the weighed axle higher than the other axle will increase the weight on the weighed axle. An easy solution to this would be to have wooden pads the same height as the load cell for the other axle(s) to drive up on which will ensure the vehicle is level and the weights are accurate. In this case, your figures were only 150 - 250kg out or about 4% of the relevant totals. If this was being weighed for enforcement purposes, you'd rightly want to ensure the vehicle is level as it would make a difference. My experience comes from heavy vehicles and depending on the type of weighbridge that weighs you, you get anywhere from 300kg to 1000kg leeway (which can be up to 6% depending on the axle group) due of the discrepancies in the equipment used and the fact they are not always completely level. This is written into the law so whatever you weigh in at, the mass adjustment for that type of site gets deducted and you are assessed on the lower amount.
It's hasn't surprised me at all, I've worked in the trucking industry and when it comes to GVW on privately owned RVs as I mentioned I'm not surprised at all.
Sad to see the tinny go and you'll need some time to get used without it but with that precious cargo in the back of the car you want to be safe on the road. Very good content guys! Safe travels 🤙🏼
I guess you guys don't have weight distribution hitches there huh? We have that in the USA, where we can shift the weight to the forward axle off the rear. 🤠👍
I run a spreadsheet (see my TH-cam channel) where I record EVERYTHING that goes in and out of the van. I can also calculate my approximate tow ball mass. Been doing this for a while since discovering we were overweight in our last van.
Not just a caravan. Last year I travelled 6,000kms through central Oz including desert X-ings, by deisel 4x4. Apart from food, tools camping equipment & satellite coms, we had 40 lires of water and enough fuel for 1,200km. Any 4x4 that is modified beyond its original specs needs to be resurveyed. (Ours had been respec'd to 3.75 tonnes GVM - and we even removed the rears seats to cut down weight - just two of us). Even carrying too much on your roofracks can void coverage, or unsurveyed & over survey spec & BOOM there goes your insurance - and there plenty of 4x4s around who were clearly travelling out of spec, who were gambling with their vehicles, and insurance. Hard lesson.
this is true, alot of these 4x4 mods are so dam heavy. its easy to go over. I beleive 4WD 24/7 did a video about the issue recently. alot of modified 4x4's are over weight limits.
Great to see your responsible attitude. So many people are ignorant and take the " I've been driving for years an she'l be right mate" attitude. Looks like a Ram 2500 is on the Xmas wish list. Don't sell the boat yet. Cheers.
Really the vehicles we use to do these jobs (living out of with caravan and kids) aren't fit for purpose, the factory GVM around 3200kg simply isn't enough to load up the kit plus the kids. To do the job of a truck, a truck may be needed. Raising awareness of these limitations is important. (the results here show that we are often at or over GVM before hitching a caravan up to the ute.)
Kudos to you for what you have done. One important thing is to remember it is not just about insurance cover, it is about the safety of those you share the road with. I don’t want to be looking straight at an overweight setup coming at me on a bend, drifting onto my side of the road, with an under steer problem due to incorrectly distributed weight. And if you do cause an accident and somebody is killed or seriously injured, you will face charges and people have been jailed for it.
Great Episode Just one thing I would change the boat ,to a zodiac or something similar and the weight is back in your favour, and you can still go boating with the family. This is what I use to do. .Have a wonderful Week.
hang tight, there will be something in the works. I couldn't stand looking at beautiful water ways and not being able to explore them. Thanks for watching and commenting.
Hmm! you need to watch where you launch those things. In the top end and North Queensland, the under water frillies use them things for teething rings.
I've towed 24,000 lbs with my 05 Dodge Ram 2500 diesel. It handles the weight great. I prefer to keep it under 20,000 because of the gearing 3:73 the transmission likes to shift more than I like.
Honestly there needs to be more enforcement for light vehicles towing all trailers not just caravans. The fines need to be connected to Points as well. So people start taking things seriously.
First it's not what you can tow but what your tow vehicle can stop/control. That is the most important. Now go out and trade the 1/4 ton truck you have on a real truck.
Always the tinny would throw off the manufactures weight combo on a van, the van is not designed to be legal with tinny added. Also if kids heavier it too will add weight. Can the LPG be rear mounted?
Yeah, we considered a weight distribution hitch, but it adds 20 odd KG's onto the van and we already had a lot to lose from the van and it would also make hitching the van up more painful so we opted against it.
It also adds weight to the van axle(s). Also the load on the towbar regularly goes well beyond the rated capacity of the towball and gooseneck. Also if your are over GCM, then no re-distribution is going to fix that. Plus, as mentioned, add the extra weight of the WDH.
I use a WDH, but not because I need to remove weight from the rear axle, but because I need to add it to the front axle. Keeping the minimum weight over the front wheels is critical to avoiding under steer, especially in an emergency when trying to avoid an obstacle or brake heavily.
In Tasmania we have a company called WeighForeward also run by a Cameron he weighs for insurance companies post accidents and they have him weight cars and vans just like yours was in the video. He also does vehicle weighing around Tas for the public just like you had I encourage all caravaners to have there’s done before heading off insurance companies are getting thought and tougher about being over weight even in just a 4wd with accessoriescna be over weight on it’s own
Full admiration what you both have achieved here including the full disclosure on video! I'd love to think you could find a light-weight boat alternative. I know there are many out there but to get one that suits your weight limits and boating requirements will be the challenge. Good luck and I'll stay tuned to see how it all goes.
Saw a video a while back where a guy was weighed and was 400kg over on his rear axle, he’d had a GVM and GCM upgrade but not a rear axle upgrade. He just couldn’t work it out, he kept on saying that he’d just have to move stuff around and he’d be ok but the guy weighing him was saying, no mate, you just don’t have anywhere for the stuff to go and your van is over too. At the end of it, he seemed pretty determined to keep on trucking🤯 We are right on the edge, at one time I’d wonder about the guys who use big American trucks but now I get it, on truck rego with a GVM greater than 5 tonne and a GCM greater than 12 tonne, it just works.
Yup, you nailed it on many accounts there. I meet alot of people who know they are over and wont sort it out. And if i could afford a yank tank or a truck i would have one. Would be so good to have more capacity. Thanks for watching and commenting.
@@michaelcook5233 pre rego in Vic, the only place you can do it for now. QLD & NSW have changed laws to allow it and what’s been done now is the engineering and certification.
A few questions, how did they calculate the 4 family members sitting in the vehicle. Did he actually have you all sit in the vehicle or did he add an average weight per occupant. Also with the rear axle weight did it take into account the weight of the caravan on the ball when in combination. What amazes me is how many people you see towing large heavy caravans with Prados and MUX, my policy has always been the tow vehicle must weigh more then the caravan. Also on one trip I counted the number of vehicles we passed without towing mirrors, the percentage was 50 / 50.
Hi there. We were all in the vehicle for the weighing process as we will always be part of the pay load. The vehicle was weighed seperate and in combination and Axel weights in both states were reported. Hope that answers your questions.
I’ve been a full timer for about 20 yrs and never been weighed or seen an rv rig being , or gears of any rv rig ever being weighed In About 27 states of travel. I do believe you were correct that you are “making” content.
It seems Australia and the USA are very different in this respect. Here in Aus we have had police blitz where they weigh all vans on a stretch of highway and issue fines for non compliance. And if your involved in accident here you rig will be weighed and if your over weight your insurance will be void. Worse still if you injure someone you will be held accountable by the law for negligence. Australia Vs USA.
@@SvedosTrippin I couldn’t agree more with those laws being enforced for all our safety, however that almost sounds to fair to be in the US. And a Lot less content for the dash cam videos though. 👍🏼
We had our van weighed with an already GVM upgrade done before first registered and e gad to start again with a new GVM and GCM to enable us to be legal. They couldn't just do a GCM. Cost us a lot of money but worth it to be legal and no arguments with the insurance should something happen.
The simple answer is to buy a TRUCK, that has been designed to tow. Most utes are not suitable as the manufacturers have never towed an Aussie van. All most owners do, and this video is a classical example, is "play" with the margins. Good luck explaining things to your insurer!
Sadly, like MOST government regulations, weights are not clearly understood by the average driver.. Tare, ATM, GCM, GTM, ATM etc. It is no wonder 90% of vans are outside limits! There should come a time, when like heavy vehicle drivers, caravan owners should require a licence upgrade.
Look, I agree alot of people don't even know what the acronyms mean and go out and drive. And that's when you can get a 3.5tonn van on a fully loaded dual cab Ute that will never be legal. But I took the time to figure it all out, I chose a 2750 van that has the potential to be legal. I weighed myself before I left. And still I found myself in this situation. A licence or training won't stop it from happening. I beleive more awareness will help which is why we've shared this embarrassing story.
If a person chooses not to become aware of the rules then whose problem is it? The "she'll be right" or "I didn't know" attitude won't wash it if you get to court. Magistrates have heard it all before. Same as if you go to another state and the rules are different to your home state. Blaming other people/institutions etc won't fix the problem. In short, when towing know the rules and abide by them or one day get burnt. It is a really costly exercise if you have to pay your own repair cost, plus all collateral damage created when the insurance company wipes you because you were overweight in one of the parameters mentioned in this video. Retired mechanic/machinist/part time trailer builder at 72 yrs of age who has been towing vans from 16 1/2 yrs of age. Yes look it up. In NSW there was nothing preventing a learner from towing a trailer or caravan in 1967/68. There were some very surprised people staring at me in the driver's seat on the New England Highway travelling to Qld when they overtook a combination with an "L" plate on the back of the van and "L" plates on the front and rear of the car. Don't get me wrong. Dad certainly would not have allowed me in the driver's seat if he for one moment thought he, his wife/my mum, plus younger brother and sister were not safe with me there.
Also note if you have a heavy vehicle licence the inspector will consider you a professional driver and you should know the overweight and loading laws. % over =$ you pay. Some times it could be a workcover fine too.
Great video and trying to dissect little bits and pieces of information you're giving as im a newby to carvans. Do you say with the water empty even though it lightens your van it still affects the towball weight in a bad way?, can making the towball weight too light also put you in the red with weights?
There isn't a limit range on towball weights but you will have a maximum towball mass value on your van plate. However it is recommended you sit with in 8-12% of the ATM, with 10% being the target, the van wiil handle better in this range . The reason cam weighs full of water and then again empty is your water tanks might be forward or rear of the axel and when you remove the water your towball mass can change. If you are aware of this and say for example when empty your towball mass was 7% you could chuck some heavy items in the front box when driving out of camp and empty to bring your towball mass to a be in the ideal range. hope this helps, I also hope to create a video that really dissects and explains all the caravan weights and details like this will be included, so sit tight and hopefully I can make something to help clarify it all for you, but if you cant weight (pun intended) cam from "wild touring" has done and excellent video explaining caravan weights as well so go check that out.
@SvedosTrippin mate, perfect that cleared it up perfectly. Thanks for the response. I also replayed the conversation conversation regarding insurance a few times trying to understand it a little more clearly. Look forward to the next videos. Thanks 👍
![[#2024MAMA] G-DRAGON - 무제(Untitled, 2014)+POWER+HOME SWEET HOME+뱅뱅뱅+FANTASTIC BABY | Mnet 241123 방송](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Ox29z5Nf1Uk/mqdefault.jpg)
As a NSW VSCCS certifier, my rule of thumb is that if a caravan has not been upgraded (either by the manufacturer because the owner knew to ask, or by being certified later), it will be over weight. With some van manufacturers, you can ask for higher ratings on a van that is already registered but reasonably new and they will supply a replacement plate with higher GTM and ATM. In NSW, you then get an AUVIS change of records inspection to put the increased ratings on the registration.
I'm also seeing other brand GVM upgrades being replaced with Lovells because Lovells have done the SAE J2807 testing (there are youtube videos about SAE J2807) required to be able to increase the GCM for many models of vehicle. For example, a BT-50 or Ranger can get the GCM to 7000kg less ball mass (3500kg GVM + 3500kg ATM trailer), but the 5-cylinder needs a cooling system (radiator + intercooler) upgrade to get past 6600kg.
Without seeing the Axle Group Capacity of the van, I can't be sure but I suspect that the GTM and ATM could both increase by several hundred kg. Combined with a GCM upgrade, you could move some weight from the back of the tow vehicle into the van, maintain your overall current weight and still have some capacity left in the GTM, ATM and GCM.
Alot of great info here. I will pin it so others might see it.
If you can send me an email to svedostrippin@gmail.com I will send the plate info back. I would love to find out if there is wiggle room and the possibility to improve our vans ATM and GTM.
John Cadogan has good TH-cam videos on towing a caravan. Travels with Delaney made a good TH-cam video on tongue weight a few years ago.
@@SvedosTrippin Check the Axle Group Load Capacity (AGLC). It is what the suspension and axles are rated for, while the GTM is what they are registered for. There might be something else that needs to be upgraded to allow it, but GTM can generally be increased to AGLC. Assuming that 10% of the total is on the coupling, the other 90% is on the wheels, so divide the AGLC by 90% to find the possible ATM. For example, if the AGLC is 2700kg, the GTM could go to 2700kg and the ATM could go to 3000kg with 300kg ball weight.
Rule of thumb, 10" drum brakes limit the ATM to 3000kg unless the brake manufacturer will provide specs for breakaway braking limit vs tyre diameter, which most won't.
If the AGLC isn't high enough, then you'd be looking at replacing suspension &/or axles, as well as possibly reinforcing drawbar, etc..
That’s all well and good but has anyone thought of the fact that the chassis and suspension points and bolts are still the same as factory parts that’s a lot more strain on everything diff gears uni joints gearbox drive shafts axles bearings
Thank you so much for bringing this to the attention of so many people that might potentially find themselves in your situation. There are a raft of issues that caravaners face and, unfortunately, safety is a growing concern.
I noted that several times you mentioned the relevance of compliance with regards to insurance, in this presentation. With all respect, if you find yourself in a situation where an insurance assessment is required, that is most likely to be the least of your worries. If the vehicle combination is being operated outside of specification and beyond what is legally required and an injury or death occurs due to loss of control of the vehicle, you could easily find yourself staring down the barrel of a culpable driving charge (or similar) and an almost certain term of imprisonment, in the case of death. And that's not to mention the fact that you'll never enjoy a good night's sleep, again. And if it's one of your own that you lose, I don't know how you process that.
This isn't a compliance "thing", it's not an insurance "thing", It's about safety. And when you're towing a pig trailer that well and truly exceeds the weight of the tow vehicle, you're already on the outer limits of safety, regardless of the law, or insurance.
Thanks, once again, for putting the spotlight on this critical issue.
As a fellow Aussie TH-cam reviewer, albeit motorcycle reviews this video you have made is potentially life saving information. I do many thousands of Kms a year on both motorcycles and in a motor home, I have come across so many accidents where the major contributing factor was poor set up. I would urge anyone watching this video to share it with others that may benefit from this information well done 👍.
Thanks so much, we hope this helps the community.
Yah I seen a trailer hitch way too high wagging swaying down the road.I beeped at him.Two exits ahead he rolled it.
What an 'eye-opener'. So many are in the same position without knowing. Upgrading capacities is not the panacea !
Knowledge is the answer. What you are allowed and what the vehicle is permitted is the answer.
From the U.S. west coast I'd like to thank you for your efforts in bringing these critical facts to all of us regarding (tow veh/caravan [trailer]/veh combination weight) weight to us. I am converting a single-axle cargo trailer to a tiny camper and hope to stay under my weight maximums. This isn't easy by any means as you certainly know. Thanks again for your contribution to caravanning safety.
As a truck driver it scares me to see and hear about the amount of people who are blissfully unaware of the information in your video, kudos to you for such an informative video on such an important subject. Well done.
cheers mate, really appreciate to hear something positive from the truckies. Hopefully this video will make a few of the caravans on the road safer.
Truck drivers know more about how a bad load effects the stability of a vehicle, they are trained in this and also have the experience to back up their training. They are usually supported by large companies with financial backing to maintain their vehicles and make sure they are safe.
Caravaners and 4WD tourers are (often) much less experienced in driving with heavy loads. They also don’t always have the experience and finance to keep their vehicle and load maintained. They have often spent all or more than they can afford just to get their foot-in-the door and don’t have the luxury of driver training, proper maintenance and good eaility equipment.
Caravan manufactures are also trying to build to a price point to maximise their market and to maximise their profits. They often don’t have spare money to spend of qualified electricians, plumbers and automotive engineers. Often their sales staff are just as desperate for a sale as the stereotypical dodgy used car salesman, and a lot of their sales staff are former/failed dodgy used car salesman.
@@SalvoDan I agree with you truck drivers know more about load restraints and axle weights, however a caravan (a pig trailer) cannot be compared to a semi trailer (a dog trailer) in any shape or form. They are on two totally different levels. Chalk and cheese.
Even a grossly overloaded semi trailer (10-40% overloaded) will preform pretty well, ie; not get the 'speed wobbles', will still stop in a straight line, and while a little slower, the prime mover is more than capable of pulling the extra weight. This is something that cannot be said about caravans.
You can get a semi trailer empty on the drive and 10% over on the trailer and, while not ideal, and to be avoided, is nowhere near as unstable as a heavy caravan. Going the other way, a semi heavy on the drive and light or empty on the trailer is quite stable to drive.
Imagine joining three caravans together and towing them with a car at 90 -100 Km/h? Ridiculous, but that's effectively what a road train does, and does it with little to no modifications to the trailers and perhaps some spec changes to the prime mover, depending on what it is.
Legal axle loadings on trucks are geared towards prolonging the life of the road. The actual manufacturer ratings normally greatly exceed what the the truck is registered to legally carry.
Good for you to bring this to light as many vloggers will not discuss this and some actively flaunt that they are over weight. My Old D40 was 150kg over before it was loaded it was too difficult to lighten the vehicle, So I sold it and bought a new D23 it has and will not have an abundance of accessories fitted for this reason and just a vinyl cover over the tub. With myself passengers, fuel and 240 kg down ball weight etc. I around have 250 kgs available in the tub. I am amazed at how many Utes are so overloaded even a light truck tyre upgrade can push your vehicle over by a small margin. Thanks again as I am planning doing the lap mid next year and this has helped me highlight this to my wife and kids.
Keep up the good work.
Yes, many vloggers like to make you think you need everything and the reality is you just can't have very much.
Next week we will share what we cut down too and the weights we were able to achieve. Might help the wife to understand what is and what isn't possible 🤔
Thanks for watching and commenting.
Great educational piece, hopefully current and prospective Ute owners will watch this.
I hope so too!
Thanks for transparency in this critical issues involving caravans and specifically full time vanners. I often wonder how people are carrying so much stuff and live to tell the tale
Sooo appreciate your honesty and courage in creating and posting this vlog. Thank you.
Thanks for watching and letting us know.
Great to see that you were honest and truthful. It had made me think twice what we add to our new set up. Sorry you had to loss your boat.
That's the hope, we can be honest and truthful and actually help people out. Thanks for watching and commenting.
Well done guys! I know it was hard for you to do but kudos to you.
Weights are such a challenge when you want to travel full time, you have the space for things but can’t have it. I had to get rid of my drawers, cargo barrier, winch, car fridge and swapped steel roof rack for ally to bring my car in and only just! I was miles over GVM before we even bought the van and had no idea!
Will be gettinf reweighed ourselves again soon, thanks for sharing
Thanks Mark, your right, its bloody hard to get it right. Hopefully this will help people to get their head around it.
Huge kudos to you & Mel for putting this on YT and being so honest and transparent! It would have been so easy not to put this episode up & i’m sure it crossed your minds, BUT travellers need to hear stories like yours! Well done guys 👍
Thanks we agree.
That’s what he said.
Hey Brett, thanks so much for sharing what would’ve been a very difficult vlog to make. I really appreciate you guys taking the time to educate other unsuspecting caravaners on this critical aspect of travel and just how important it is to comply if you want to be legally covered. I’m also one of the sticky beaks who asked about your missing pride and joy only because I could tell how much fishing means to you, so I really feel for you mate ☹️ hopefully you’ll find another way of re-engaging with that passion for casting a line 🤞looking forward to part 2 of this very educational worthwhile presentation thanks again 👍 take care and see you guys next week 😀
Thanks so much for reaching out and being involved with our channel. We have something in the works so stay tuned.
Thanks Brett & Mel for sharing your honest concerns - it’s so important to ensure compliance and safety for your loved ones and others on the road - I’ve been aware of the high proportion of illegally overweight tourers for some time now and in fact a recent tragedy occurred where a heavily loaded 4WD/caravan and boat crashed on a downhill highway stretch between Wauchope and Port Macquarie NSW causing a fatality - this resulted in a conviction for the driver of four years and after he appealed was given an extra two years - not only has he killed a loved one but has a criminal record for the rest of his life - be very very careful out there.
yes. its important to get it right, and there are alot of people out there that are aware they are over but just don't care. We were blissfully unaware, but when we learned the reality we had to do something about it.
Congrats on this, excellent education for us all. Your honesty is refreshing and appreciated. We went through the same thing and was blown away by our weights. Have corrected it now but see so many vehicle/van combos that are just outright frightening with the gear they carry.
Yup, you can spot em a mile away, and you spot em all too frequently. And it's got alot to do with the vanfluencers making you think you need everything. We hope by sharing our story honestly we help the community out there, so glad to hear this feedback from you.
Great episode. We too have a BT-50 with Lovells 7000kg combined weight upgrade. Worth every penny to be insured correctly.
However we still are very conscious of what we put in our vehicle n Van. So many out there questionable.
Often thought you may be over only due to the boat and kudos to you guys for being so honest and sharing. A hard decision, but one so many hopefully will learn from. Safe travels, look forward to the alternative for fishing Brett.
Cheers guys, it's just so hard to get right.
Thanks so much for sharing Brett. As you said 'one of the hardest videos you've done'.
We know you loved the tinny, sorry that you guys had to let it go, but no option for safety/compliace reasons.
The vid was really informative and what a great help Cam was. Seemed like he really cared & not a cowboy business.
You've had some time to get used to the tinny gone, so hope it's been a bit easier the last few weeks.
Safe travels, see you next week for part 2 ❤
Thanks Lyn. Yeah sucks to see the Tinny go. But I want to be honest and open with everyone and share not only the highs but also the lows so I needed to make this vid as much as I diddnt want to.
We do have something in the works re. Getting on the water so stay tuned.
Great video. And what a professional Cam and his business are - I’ll certainly be using his services if they’re ever in WA.
Good luck to all of you guys.
great to hear, thanks for watching.
Well presented honest content , Thankyou for sharing your experience even though it wasn't what you wanted to hear .
thanks for watching and commenting.
Great video, we’re just starting our caravan journey so this is awesome information. Thanks
@johnrichardson4749 thanks, I've done a more recent video on weights that is probably alot more informative 👍
We were weighed too. Overweight but just by a smidge. We were more overweight on rear axle. Changing to a Ute or LC wouldn’t fix the issue unless we paid for a big upgrade so we looked at patrol as the rear axle load is bigger. It’s a big headache but great you are talking about it as so many combinations are illegal out there on the road 😊
That's so true, I hope we can bring attention to the issue so people think about making sure they get it right. I don't want anyone out there finding out they are uninsured after an accident, it would be devistating.
OMG such an amazing video. You both should be commended for your openness and dam right common sense in firstly reviewing your situation and then very difficult decisions to address the issues. Im very sorry for you for having to make the forced changes but to me this video can do more for Caravan safety around Australia than anything else Ive watched. If I'm travelling with the right weights that makes it safer for me and importantly those around me on the road.
Many of the comments written also add a great source of info to this problem
A huge thank you for this.
Thanks for such a positive comment, we do hope by being honest we can help shed some light onto a subject many ignore or choose to hide.
Excellent watch Brett, well done for doing it and sharing! Feel for you about the tinny 😢 but hey, got to be safe and look after your fam!
Absolutely, the C in caravanning now stands for compromise, haha. I'm glad we are now safe and legal. Thanks for watching and commenting.
Wow,, So awesome to see some people taking safety seriously,,Thank you,
Well done to you guys. We’ did a lap a year ago and couldn’t believe how many people were overweight. And by a lot more than you guys. I recon 90 percent of people with boats are over.
As a you tuber it’s great to see your activity trying to put across the wright message and do the right thing. I have commented a few times on other channels about weight. No response. So well done to you. Hope to see you on the road one day.
yes, many "influencers" make it look like you can have everything and are part of the problem. We wanted to share this experience and not sweep it under the rug. Thanks for watching and your kind comment.
There is another part to this that needs to be considered. Watched countless TH-cam videos of these 3.5ton utes that when they have been towing large vans (up near 3ton loaded) that either the transmission or engines have died, with a cost of up to $10000 to repair. That is another issue with these light weight utes.
We are hearing you, we just went down that road one month ago. And we were equally surprised although we are just a couple with no kids, no toys carrying around etc. We also purposely filled caravan and car to its maximum just before the weighing appointment to see if that would be still legal. Sure enough we were over. While we sort of expected it we still were surprised because there was so much storage space left in both car and caravan that we could have utilised.
One tip: check your pantry. There is lots of heavy stuff in there that you might carry with you 'just in case'. Wow ... how much pasta and rice does someone really need? Plus all those other things that are hiding there, often in heavy jars.
We also recently got a Soda Maker (light appliance) to not having to carry loads of water bottles and soft drinks with us. I mean we have the water tanks full ... right? Why adding another 10-20 kg to car/caravan?
Full-time caravanning means starting to think outside the box.
Happy travels, looking forward to part 2 of the video.
thanks for watching and your thoughtful comment. We did a massive clean out as you suggested and cleared out our pantry as well as everything and I mean everything else. C is for Compromise these days, haha. Hopefully in part 2 we will share a lot of weight saving ideas and demonstrate how little you can really have, I expect it will shock people.
@SvedosTrippin absolutely 💯. Even with our fully composite caravan we have to comprise. Being able to stay offgrid longer with lots of water and power reduces the payload significantly.
Thanks for the interesting video, in North America we have lots of weigh scales for commercial vehicles but none for RV’s! I will guess that most trailers, caravans and tow vehicles are overweight. I have a heavy duty tow vehicle and a 5th wheel trailer which I try to keep to a limit what I carry in them, unless I go through a commercial scale I will never know.
That is great for you guys. Here in Australia, insurance agencies will use an over weight van as a way outvof honouring insurance claims as will the van manufacturers on any warranty claims.
Very strict here in Australia.
@@SvedosTrippin i noticed that when I was over the other year before Covid. I drove a camper van from Brisbane back to Adelaide, nothing wrong with being strict on weights.
The majority of police weighing of vehicles here in the USA is of commercial vehicles. But, it is good to try to get somewhat close.
I do like having dual axles on the trailer, giving a little of redundancy in case of a blowout.
One thing that is common here in the USA are Sway Bars or Equalizer Bars. Essentially they transfer weight from the rear axle of the vehicle to the front axle of the vehicle, although they do toss stresses on the vehicle around a bit.
yeah, we have something similar here called a weight distribution hitch. many people run them, would of helped with our problem but they also weigh 20KG's which is on the van so we opted not to go down that path.
Quality information! This is the first time you guys have popped up in my TH-cam feed. Subscribed and will check out your channel. Safe travels.
Thanks Darren, hope to see you in the future 😀
I have a bit to do with tucks and therefore I don't really like caravans. I take my hat off to you, you would be one of the few who know or care about this, let alone fix the problem and make a video of it.
Thank you, means alot. I feel a bit of responsibility as some one that encourages people to get out and travel which is why i diddnt want to sweep this under the rug but rather share it and help educate people.
Great video and information Brett and Mel, always love your honesty about everything that comes with traveling in a van.
Thank you, appreciate your positive feedback.
It’s interesting travelling around Australia and we see so many people with boats/trailers on top of their roof or canopy, big bull bar on the front and towing a caravan and I wonder how they are doing it? Thanks for you post and frankness.
I’ve done none of that and when got weighed the car was just under by 100kgs fully loaded
Yeah, we wanted to be like all the others with all the gear, but with a limited budget it's just not feasible. So many out there are over.
Great video, amazing honest content. Definitely an eye opener to weights. Kids are funny
haha Owen screaming in the background lol.
That’s a great way of bringing the subject of weights to the attention of fellow caravan owners. Thank you. We have an issue with our Pajero being unable to exceed 250kg of towball download. Fortunately we are in the position to be able to replace the car with a Nissan Patrol, with 500kg GVM upgrade. If our options were limited to keeping the car, we would be selling the van and buying something that isn’t really what we want
weights sure are a nightmare... thanks for watching and commenting.
Very educational & informative! Sad about the tinny as you love your fishing! But Safety First! Still lots more things to see & do on your Aussie Adventure. Stay safe❣️Look forward to your next Vlog.🥰
Thanks mom, i will miss the tinny but have something exciting to take its place.
@@SvedosTrippin What's that???!
@@susannlynchyzus8664 it's a surprise 😮
Thanks for sharing I am in the process of buying my second van.
Have never paid attention to the weight always eyeballed the weight distribution and off we go. I am more aware now and plan on doing the right thing this time. We will use this mainly for holiday camping. We are not at the point of big road trips around the country yet. I have a question about the water. When departing home. Will it be better to have less water in the tanks then at the destination add or just hookup to camp supply? I also used to drain the water when I am on my way back home leaving just a small amount in the tank to keep it wet inside and not sitting at home with a full tank possibly for months. Thanks for your comments.
@hentiebeukes5319 Hi mate.
If it's with in your capacity I find it.better to travel with water tanks full. This is because the tanks are low on the van and having more weight down low improves handling.
I would suggest either travel full or empty, not half full as the sloshing around can impact handling.
Good luck with it all.
@@SvedosTrippin Thanks for your prompt reply. This makes sense I will keep that in mind. Safe travels.
Yep weights are such a complicated issue. With our coaster it’s hard even to get proper numbers of what we’re allowed. In general if we fill everything (water tanks, fuel, jerrys, big grocery load) for a stint in the wops we are over. So planning is everything for us, travel with water tank levels low, do our shop as close as possible to where we are staying, or shop more often where possible.
Our main issue is because our coasters gvm is down graded so it can be driven on a car license, that extra 500kg makes all the difference.
I think if we keep the coaster a gvm upgrade (and license upgrade) will be in our future.
I’d love to see a legal challenge to a insurance company that rejected a claim based on tanks being full if they can’t prove that they are.
I think American pickups amd small trucks are gonna take over this lifestyle.
And you don’t need to spend 100-150k for ram or Silverado.
Can get an older Isuzu 4x4 truck for less than 50k, set up the tray for what you want amd never have a weight concern again. (I was watching an ex rural fire truck go through pickles, full service history and something stupid like 40000km, and it sold for 45k
Or an older American truck, still great for towing and often more reliable because they don’t have all the egr and dpf issues modern diesels have.
agree trucks and yank tanks are the future for sure, with all this regulation now in play. they used to tow 4 tonn with a blood old falcon back in the day. thanks for watching and commenting.
I’m towing my 15-foot caravan with a 1971 American Ford F100 with a 390 V8 😍
Glad you made the Vlog, such good information.
We had the same problem, canopy, boat, trailer, motor, all got left at home, put the tub back on with a lid, stripped out the van, we are good now,
and that's about the reality of it. You just cant have everything. Thanks for watching and commenting.
Chin up mate. Well done to you guys for rectifying your problem.
We did our lap last year “legally “. I estimate around 60 to 70 percent are over weight in some way. There is no way a small 4wd duel cab with a canopy and a 3.5 ton van on the back can be under weight let along have a tinny, bikes, kids etc etc. you can spot them a mile away. Rear end off the tow vehicle dragging its arse along the ground. Unfortunately the only way you can get around this is have nothing in the canopy or better still no canopy or upgrade to something with big weight numbers and spend 150k or more.
We have a jmacx 4495 gvm upgrade with rear axle at 2850, canopy but no boat. We are just under fully loaded.
I’m sure you guys will still enjoy your travels without the tinny and hope this video helps others to understand.
Hope to catch you on a fishing charter one day
Well done.
Thanks so much, you nailed it on every point. Catch ya on a charter somewhere 🤪
What we are seeing here is THE biggest problem with Caravans generally.
Almost without exception Caravan travelers are PLANNING to run, too close to the limits with no margin for error.
As a result they end up over weight, in the majortity of cases and not by a small amount.
.
250Kg over weight is not a small amount.
.
People need to STOP thinking they can buy the biggest caravan the vehicle will tow.
If you are looking for a GVM upgrade, you need to take a long hard look at what you are trying to do and your vehicle and caravan choices.
.
Remember too that the towing capacities on passenger cars are for, "smooth improved surfaces" and not necessarily at highway speeds.
.
People also need to look at towing with small trucks rather than passenger cars. They may find things more comfortable and cheaper in the long run.
.
Remember in heavy transport, many companies weigh their vehicles EVERY TIME the vehicle leaves the yard AND they usually have some margin for error built into their loading plans.
Fantastic well explained subject. Good luck with getting it all sorted.
Thanks so much.
Great vid, just spoke to my son who worked for QLD police for 25yrs, he had some horrible stories, one thing he did say is that they DO check all the weights of vehicles involved if there is an accident involving caravan, motor homes especially. And insurance companies love it when they know the vehicle was overloaded.
And this is why it's important to get it right, and we wanted to share our story. So many people out there might not even be aware they are overloaded.
They think they can be like the vanfluencers out there who have everything.
Rule of thumb I got told when I first started caravanning: The loaded weight of the caravan should not exceed the loaded weight of the towing vehicle regardless of the manufacturer’s stated towing capacity.
Makes pretty good sense to me but I get very nervous seeing some of the very obviously out of balance rigs. It’s the reason I always stay out of the way of popular spots during school holidays and sit tight until they all go back home before I hit the road again 😂
Great video - here in the USA I suspect at least 50% - probably much more - of the folks pulling trailers (caravans) are probably overweight. There is such a push toward making them lightweight so they can sell to a wider audience, but if you try to bring any serious gear with you you are going to exceed the GVWR. That was a very detailed weighing - nice. Thanks for making this.
Your welcome, thanks for watching and commenting. Here in aus there has been alot of focus on van weights with police blitz targeting it. And still we estimate 70% are over.
I dare say in thr USA where there is less focus on weights, that your numbers would be higher.
Thanks for sharing the lows with us.
You could always be like Trip in a Van and run two vehicles, one for the van and one for the tinny 😁
trip in a van have a significant larger amount of funds to play with lol. We can barely afford to run our 1 vehicle. thanks for watching and commenting.
@@SvedosTrippin Apologies, I meant that comment sarcastically in regards to having two cars. It would be a financial and logistical nightmare. Probably only worth it if you hate travelling with your partner 😜
Not to mention that rated towing capacity of modern cars is widely over inflated by manufacturers as they are chasing customers.
Great vid, going to get weighed tomorrow and very apprehensive about it but know we won't be comfortable until we know where we stand.
It has to be done, good luck tomorrow. C is for Comprimise, if your over you might just have to lose some luxuries.
@@SvedosTrippin We came in a bit under, so have a bit of room to pick up trinkets on our travel's.
@@geoffbuys5838 awesome, congratulations. Just watch what you accrue in your travels.
Excellent and honest, one detail you didn't reveal was, what was the tow ball weight exerted by your caravan? That figure can vary considerably based on how the caravan is balanced and as your friend pointed out you have measure it at the ride height on your vehicle.
The report is in the video, you can see the TBM on the report if your interested. I also think we did briefly talk about the TBM.
Thanks for watching, hope it was helpful.
There really should be a licence mandatory towing competency certification requirement for anyone towing >2T which includes solid training on weights and loads etc.
It wouldn't hurt, so many people out there don't even know what the acronyms mean. But the sellers don't care, they will happily sell a 3.5tonn van to a dual cab Ute.
Good video and good on you for bringing up the rear axle weight. It seems every other video I have seen ignores the rear axle weight and it's so easy to get over that one once hitched. I have started to weight my whole setup on a local weighbridge when we go for longer camps with the caravan attached so i can see what that rear axle is doing and also the GCM.
Thanks for watching. I thinknthe reason they don't bring it up is they are probably over, look at their set ups. If the canopy is full it's likely going to be over.
But everyone uses the vanfluencers as a guide and they think if they have a full canopy I can too.
We did, and look where it got us...
We hope by sharing our experiences we will help others get it right.
If you are overweight. You are NOT INSURED. GOOD CONTENT BUDDY
thanks, its the reality, and there are so many that are over weight. insurance agencies just laughing their way to the bank.
@SvedosTrippin basically , if you get involved in an accident, and found faulty in any manner. And a human life has been lost or seriously injured or mamed. You are responsible, and I guarantee the book of LAW will be thrown at you. All along whilst you are NOT insured. In any manner. 3rd party inclusive. .
You are doing a good thing m8. Be vocal
Thank you. Realy appreciate these comments.
@@SvedosTrippin So are undertakers.
So ditching the Mrs kids n dog was a no go. 😂😉😎 lol
Well done such a great vlog.. Shame about the boat but land fishing is fun. Bloody enjoy how great you all are ❤🎉
Thanks mate, I also love a walk along a beach for a fish, maybe a fishing drone 🤔
@@SvedosTrippingot to love drone fishing. I just did a week on Straddie was epic fishing. Wow over 50k views. Awesome you deserve ever viewer and more ❤
@@tr109ad4 Thanks so much!
Very economical fix would be buy a used Iveco Daily Double cab. I towed a fifth wheeler and plenty of room for passengers and gear on the tray. Good luck.
Trucks are in my opinion the way of the future, if we ever find our selves wealthy enough to build a nice truck we absolutely would.
I'm some what jealous of elnicks new rig that for sure.
Thanks for a great video, I think caravan sales people could advise people better when buying and I think we can get by with smaller caravans than we think we need. A smaller van would allow the tinny to come back.
True, we have talked about going to a semi off road van in a year or 2's time. That would allow us some more spare weight.
The onus is on the driver, it always is.
@@downanddirty6899 Very correct and also seems a little out of place to this small thread. Did you mean to put it in as some kind of rebuttal to what has already been said, Or an original comment?
The problem is widespread, caravan manufacturers need to weigh the van before options , and after some do and be transparent, many tell the customer what they want to hear. Customers all need to be realistic about what they choose to pack & option, big coffee machines,washing machines large fridges large water capacity it is very difficult to keep legal add a boat outboard no way.
I've watched a few of these caravan weighing videos and one thing I have noticed with those mobile load cells is they never seem to counteract the fact that when one set of axles is up on the load cell, the other axle of the vehicle is quite a bit lower on the ground. Being level is crucial and having the weighed axle higher than the other axle will increase the weight on the weighed axle. An easy solution to this would be to have wooden pads the same height as the load cell for the other axle(s) to drive up on which will ensure the vehicle is level and the weights are accurate.
In this case, your figures were only 150 - 250kg out or about 4% of the relevant totals. If this was being weighed for enforcement purposes, you'd rightly want to ensure the vehicle is level as it would make a difference.
My experience comes from heavy vehicles and depending on the type of weighbridge that weighs you, you get anywhere from 300kg to 1000kg leeway (which can be up to 6% depending on the axle group) due of the discrepancies in the equipment used and the fact they are not always completely level. This is written into the law so whatever you weigh in at, the mass adjustment for that type of site gets deducted and you are assessed on the lower amount.
It's hasn't surprised me at all, I've worked in the trucking industry and when it comes to GVW on privately owned RVs as I mentioned I'm not surprised at all.
Sad to see the tinny go and you'll need some time to get used without it but with that precious cargo in the back of the car you want to be safe on the road. Very good content guys! Safe travels 🤙🏼
thanks mate. It is sad to go, might come up with a new way to get on the water but.
I guess you guys don't have weight distribution hitches there huh? We have that in the USA, where we can shift the weight to the forward axle off the rear. 🤠👍
We do have WDH here, but they have some disadvantages, I would use it as a last resort personally.
We managed to get our weights right with out one.
This was a very I educational video, thanks for sharing
Your welcome, glad to hear it's helping people.
I run a spreadsheet (see my TH-cam channel) where I record EVERYTHING that goes in and out of the van. I can also calculate my approximate tow ball mass. Been doing this for a while since discovering we were overweight in our last van.
That's a fantastic idea.
Not just a caravan. Last year I travelled 6,000kms through central Oz including desert X-ings, by deisel 4x4. Apart from food, tools camping equipment & satellite coms, we had 40 lires of water and enough fuel for 1,200km. Any 4x4 that is modified beyond its original specs needs to be resurveyed. (Ours had been respec'd to 3.75 tonnes GVM - and we even removed the rears seats to cut down weight - just two of us). Even carrying too much on your roofracks can void coverage, or unsurveyed & over survey spec & BOOM there goes your insurance - and there plenty of 4x4s around who were clearly travelling out of spec, who were gambling with their vehicles, and insurance. Hard lesson.
this is true, alot of these 4x4 mods are so dam heavy. its easy to go over. I beleive 4WD 24/7 did a video about the issue recently. alot of modified 4x4's are over weight limits.
Who cares about insurance. You're playing with lives. Priorities.
Great to see your responsible attitude. So many people are ignorant and take the " I've been driving for years an she'l be right mate" attitude.
Looks like a Ram 2500 is on the Xmas wish list. Don't sell the boat yet. Cheers.
It's on the wish list for sure, thanks for watching.
Or an Iveco Daily 4x4
Really the vehicles we use to do these jobs (living out of with caravan and kids) aren't fit for purpose, the factory GVM around 3200kg simply isn't enough to load up the kit plus the kids.
To do the job of a truck, a truck may be needed. Raising awareness of these limitations is important.
(the results here show that we are often at or over GVM before hitching a caravan up to the ute.)
It can be done, but a max 2750 van is the reality and there is a lot of compromise in what you can take required. thanks for watching and commenting.
Kudos to you for what you have done.
One important thing is to remember it is not just about insurance cover, it is about the safety of those you share the road with.
I don’t want to be looking straight at an overweight setup coming at me on a bend, drifting onto my side of the road, with an under steer problem due to incorrectly distributed weight.
And if you do cause an accident and somebody is killed or seriously injured, you will face charges and people have been jailed for it.
Yes everyone should consider safety as the primary concern when getting weights right, I should have made that clearer in the video.
Great Episode
Just one thing I would change the boat ,to a zodiac or something similar and the weight is back in your favour, and you can still go boating with the family. This is what I use to do. .Have a wonderful Week.
hang tight, there will be something in the works. I couldn't stand looking at beautiful water ways and not being able to explore them. Thanks for watching and commenting.
A set up like “the outfit” would maybe work, but with an electric engine instead of the petrol.
Hmm! you need to watch where you launch those things. In the top end and North Queensland, the under water frillies use them things for teething rings.
I've towed 24,000 lbs with my 05 Dodge Ram 2500 diesel. It handles the weight great. I prefer to keep it under 20,000 because of the gearing 3:73 the transmission likes to shift more than I like.
So much honesty. Too bad more caravaners couldn't take a lesson from you
Cheers mate, I don't mind it being a point of difference 😄
Honestly there needs to be more enforcement for light vehicles towing all trailers not just caravans.
The fines need to be connected to Points as well. So people start taking things seriously.
First it's not what you can tow but what your tow vehicle can stop/control. That is the most important. Now go out and trade the 1/4 ton truck you have on a real truck.
Always the tinny would throw off the manufactures weight combo on a van, the van is not designed to be legal with tinny added.
Also if kids heavier it too will add weight. Can the LPG be rear mounted?
Gr8 ep guys …. Them weights add up…. Stay safe 🤙
They sure do, thanks for watching.
Do you guys have weight distributing hitches down there? It moves weight to the front axle.
Yeah, we considered a weight distribution hitch, but it adds 20 odd KG's onto the van and we already had a lot to lose from the van and it would also make hitching the van up more painful so we opted against it.
It also adds weight to the van axle(s). Also the load on the towbar regularly goes well beyond the rated capacity of the towball and gooseneck. Also if your are over GCM, then no re-distribution is going to fix that. Plus, as mentioned, add the extra weight of the WDH.
I use a WDH, but not because I need to remove weight from the rear axle, but because I need to add it to the front axle.
Keeping the minimum weight over the front wheels is critical to avoiding under steer, especially in an emergency when trying to avoid an obstacle or brake heavily.
In Tasmania we have a company called WeighForeward also run by a Cameron he weighs for insurance companies post accidents and they have him weight cars and vans just like yours was in the video. He also does vehicle weighing around Tas for the public just like you had I encourage all caravaners to have there’s done before heading off insurance companies are getting thought and tougher about being over weight even in just a 4wd with accessoriescna be over weight on it’s own
Full admiration what you both have achieved here including the full disclosure on video! I'd love to think you could find a light-weight boat alternative. I know there are many out there but to get one that suits your weight limits and boating requirements will be the challenge. Good luck and I'll stay tuned to see how it all goes.
Thanks so much, we have come up with a way to get on the water, it will be shared in a couple of weeks.
Thanks for watching.
@@SvedosTrippin Excellent Brett, can't wait for your update 🙂
Saw a video a while back where a guy was weighed and was 400kg over on his rear axle, he’d had a GVM and GCM upgrade but not a rear axle upgrade. He just couldn’t work it out, he kept on saying that he’d just have to move stuff around and he’d be ok but the guy weighing him was saying, no mate, you just don’t have anywhere for the stuff to go and your van is over too. At the end of it, he seemed pretty determined to keep on trucking🤯
We are right on the edge, at one time I’d wonder about the guys who use big American trucks but now I get it, on truck rego with a GVM greater than 5 tonne and a GCM greater than 12 tonne, it just works.
Yup, you nailed it on many accounts there. I meet alot of people who know they are over and wont sort it out. And if i could afford a yank tank or a truck i would have one. Would be so good to have more capacity.
Thanks for watching and commenting.
how did they get a gcm upgrade?
If your van weighs more than your tow vehicle buy a truck.
@@michaelcook5233 pre rego in Vic, the only place you can do it for now. QLD & NSW have changed laws to allow it and what’s been done now is the engineering and certification.
@@chrisstevens463 100%
Bugger that I'd get rid of the caravan before I got rid of the boat and I would get a rooftop tent
A few questions, how did they calculate the 4 family members sitting in the vehicle. Did he actually have you all sit in the vehicle or did he add an average weight per occupant. Also with the rear axle weight did it take into account the weight of the caravan on the ball when in combination. What amazes me is how many people you see towing large heavy caravans with Prados and MUX, my policy has always been the tow vehicle must weigh more then the caravan. Also on one trip I counted the number of vehicles we passed without towing mirrors, the percentage was 50 / 50.
Hi there. We were all in the vehicle for the weighing process as we will always be part of the pay load.
The vehicle was weighed seperate and in combination and Axel weights in both states were reported.
Hope that answers your questions.
Thing we don't have to worry about in the US. I wish people would. Towing 30+' trailers with half tons.
Just being barely within the limit is still bad. And dangerous.
I’ve been a full timer for about 20 yrs and never been weighed or seen an rv rig being , or gears of any rv rig ever being weighed In About 27 states of travel. I do believe you were correct that you are “making” content.
It seems Australia and the USA are very different in this respect. Here in Aus we have had police blitz where they weigh all vans on a stretch of highway and issue fines for non compliance.
And if your involved in accident here you rig will be weighed and if your over weight your insurance will be void. Worse still if you injure someone you will be held accountable by the law for negligence.
Australia Vs USA.
@@SvedosTrippin I couldn’t agree more with those laws being enforced for all our safety, however that almost sounds to fair to be in the US. And a Lot less content for the dash cam videos though. 👍🏼
What is the make/model of your tow vehicle and caravan?
Water and spare fuel are weight variables to consider.
Absolutely 💯
Yep, more wobble boxes should be weighed more often, especially in Qld, wobble boxes are pandemic on Qld roads
Do you not have the option to use a weight distribution hitch?
Good presentation. How much do they charge to do a full weigh in?
I've heard of many weighers being very expensive like $800, Cam is much more reasonable at $350.
need to get a US pickup with a larger towing capacity
Yeah, like I said, couldn't solve it with out throwing money that I don't have at the problem.
We had our van weighed with an already GVM upgrade done before first registered and e gad to start again with a new GVM and GCM to enable us to be legal. They couldn't just do a GCM. Cost us a lot of money but worth it to be legal and no arguments with the insurance should something happen.
The simple answer is to buy a TRUCK, that has been designed to tow. Most utes are not suitable as the manufacturers have never towed an Aussie van. All most owners do, and this video is a classical example, is "play" with the margins. Good luck explaining things to your insurer!
Sadly, like MOST government regulations, weights are not clearly understood by the average driver.. Tare, ATM, GCM, GTM, ATM etc. It is no wonder 90% of vans are outside limits! There should come a time, when like heavy vehicle drivers, caravan owners should require a licence upgrade.
Look, I agree alot of people don't even know what the acronyms mean and go out and drive. And that's when you can get a 3.5tonn van on a fully loaded dual cab Ute that will never be legal.
But I took the time to figure it all out, I chose a 2750 van that has the potential to be legal. I weighed myself before I left. And still I found myself in this situation. A licence or training won't stop it from happening.
I beleive more awareness will help which is why we've shared this embarrassing story.
If a person chooses not to become aware of the rules then whose problem is it? The "she'll be right" or "I didn't know" attitude won't wash it if you get to court. Magistrates have heard it all before. Same as if you go to another state and the rules are different to your home state. Blaming other people/institutions etc won't fix the problem. In short, when towing know the rules and abide by them or one day get burnt. It is a really costly exercise if you have to pay your own repair cost, plus all collateral damage created when the insurance company wipes you because you were overweight in one of the parameters mentioned in this video. Retired mechanic/machinist/part time trailer builder at 72 yrs of age who has been towing vans from 16 1/2 yrs of age. Yes look it up. In NSW there was nothing preventing a learner from towing a trailer or caravan in 1967/68. There were some very surprised people staring at me in the driver's seat on the New England Highway travelling to Qld when they overtook a combination with an "L" plate on the back of the van and "L" plates on the front and rear of the car. Don't get me wrong. Dad certainly would not have allowed me in the driver's seat if he for one moment thought he, his wife/my mum, plus younger brother and sister were not safe with me there.
Exactly the reason why stuff breaks.
You are driving on the wrong side of the road 😄
You got to ask yourself how many times will you use a boat just rent one or go on a charter
It's a fair point you make.
Also note if you have a heavy vehicle licence the inspector will consider you a professional driver and you should know the overweight and loading laws. % over =$ you pay. Some times it could be a workcover fine too.
You had to weigh your camper?
Great video and trying to dissect little bits and pieces of information you're giving as im a newby to carvans. Do you say with the water empty even though it lightens your van it still affects the towball weight in a bad way?, can making the towball weight too light also put you in the red with weights?
There isn't a limit range on towball weights but you will have a maximum towball mass value on your van plate. However it is recommended you sit with in 8-12% of the ATM, with 10% being the target, the van wiil handle better in this range .
The reason cam weighs full of water and then again empty is your water tanks might be forward or rear of the axel and when you remove the water your towball mass can change. If you are aware of this and say for example when empty your towball mass was 7% you could chuck some heavy items in the front box when driving out of camp and empty to bring your towball mass to a be in the ideal range.
hope this helps, I also hope to create a video that really dissects and explains all the caravan weights and details like this will be included, so sit tight and hopefully I can make something to help clarify it all for you, but if you cant weight (pun intended) cam from "wild touring" has done and excellent video explaining caravan weights as well so go check that out.
@SvedosTrippin mate, perfect that cleared it up perfectly. Thanks for the response. I also replayed the conversation conversation regarding insurance a few times trying to understand it a little more clearly. Look forward to the next videos. Thanks 👍
Go to a truck scales when you are loaded.
What were the weights on each Axel on van and the tug?
I think it's displayed on the report that I put up in the video. If it's not there let me know and I will dig out the report.