I want to find answers to many of the questions discussed as well. I eagerly await the sleep, rest, and a new body, just not tomorrow. Great conversation!
This interview/conversation opens up lots of questions. 🙂 My first thought is in Galatians and more as Paul uses the word to clothe or to put on. It would be interesting to try and put the context of being God’s image with what Paul is saying in the NT. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. - Galatians 3:27 and to put on the new self, created after the likeness of God in true righteousness and holiness. - Ephesians 4:24 Just two of several instances where Paul uses this expression.
Perhaps Paul’s use of image could be included. For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. - Romans 8:29
Really interesting but I struggle with the discussion about disability since clearly surgical interventions like hole in the heart surgery or cleft palate correction are legitimate.
One thing that is very unique to the Deaf community is the role of language which comes part and parcel with their embodied reality, and if all tribes and languages are going to be present in the New Jerusalem, then while we can debate whether Deaf persons will “hear” in the new creation, we should not dismiss the “identity and language and culture” that could still be maintained. As my brother once said, perhaps what will happen in new creation is that even he will understand sign language too! I liked Dr Imes mention of “obstructions to access” simply being removed. Perhaps nobody needs to change that much, but all the barriers are taken down.
You are a tselem (an idol) of God representing him on earth. What makes you an image is that you have a body on earth. An idol is a concrete item and so what makes you a tselem (idol) of God on earth is that you have a body. As an idol, a representative, you don't receive the worship for yourself but you receive it on behalf of the unseen one. You lose the glory of being human (tselem, an idol of God) when you don't perform your function. But failing your function doesn't make you less human. Not having certain capabilities, achievement and experience doesn't make you less human.
"The more humans we have, the more reminders there will be all over the place of the rule of God." Who are these reminders for? Who are we "imaging" to? 🤔
"A temple is supposed to reflect glory to God" But that only happens when you have "eyes to see" - that is, when someone or a culture pointed out the way.
That’s a powerful differentiation of being the image of God versus bearing his image. It was fascinating to hear from about the Hebrew language and context of what early Hebrews would have thought the language in Genesis to be. If that is correct, I think it’s a very transformational view of human beings in that despite the effect of sin in ourselves, we are the image of God. I think it speaks more intensely on how much our value, identity and worth comes from God. I think one question I would like to ask Dr. imes is - when we are regenerated into a new creation through putting our trust in Jesus, do we reveal more of his image in that sense? I thought thus was very fascinating.
I'm so glad you enjoyed this, Rebecca! Our new life in Christ empowers us to live in greater alignment with our true identity as God's image. As we're conformed to Christ, we actively live out the vocation we are intended to do.
I wouldn’t want to represent the age and limitations I have now in heaven with my glorified body. I would think the person who’s 103 would think the same.
Not being critical; nor criticizing; but you guys intellectualize you're way right out of the clear teaching of Scriptures! God is able to subdue all things to himself! His scars are unique to His mission and witness to coming untold generations of the Lord's death for the human race!
"The world has been marred by [original] sin." So, either God, being omniscient, knew this was going to happen, and God planned everything this way and allowed sin to happen, or He didn't know it, and man, right from the start, defeated God's intended plan?
I would say that God's desire was for a world in which we could freely choose to relate to him. Sin is not what he wanted, but its a consequence of our freedom, which IS what he wanted.
@@CarmenJoyImesPhD "I would say that God's desire was for a world in which we could freely choose to relate to him." Adam and Eve already did relate to him. God walked with them in the garden, and they had conversations together. The only purpose for God putting the tree in the garden was to cause sin. That's on God. "Sin is not what he wanted" Yet He put the tree there anyways. And THEN God _also_ put talking snakes in the garden. No, God didn't want talking snakes in the garden, and they happened anyways? God didn't know all that was going to happen? In any other real life situation, the negligent parent is held accountable. But here, we give an all-knowing, all-powerful god a free pass, and blame the kids who literally don't know right from wrong.
The way I understand it is there was a war in heaven, and Satan was thrown down to the earth and took a third of the angels with him. When God created man, Satan was already there. God put Adam in the garden and made him a mate. God also put all of the trees in the garden along with the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. We don't know how long Adam and Eve lived in the garden in obedience. But we do know their own lust and desires drew them away. And Satan took advantage of the weakness. God surely knew the man he made would eventually succumb to his desire to know good and evil, which is why he sent his word in the likeness of flesh before the foundation (katabolē - throwing down) of the earth. Eph 1:4
@@jeroldmoore-wi6lt "there was a war in heaven, and Satan was thrown down to the earth and took a third of the angels with him. When God created man, Satan was already there." So this war took place during Creation Week? And is this war described anywhere in the Bible, or is this a fan-fiction story? "we do know their own lust and desires drew them away." And how do we know this? The whole point of the story is that they didn't know right from wrong. They COULDN'T have, until AFTER they ate from the Tree of -Unnecessary Plot Complications- Knowledge of Good and Evil. Think about that for a moment. And also, Eve didn't even exist yet, when God told Adam not to eat from the tree.
There’s a lot of Stretching going on here… will continue to listen but test the words. What if Adam and Eve’s creation? That original image before the fall? Jesus’ scars? Ok. What about when he transformed his appearance? Emmaeus road, etc.
Jesus has scars because it is to remind us what he did for us. The idea that you don’t know what you’re going to be if you didn’t have your handicap just shows that people are reducing themselves to their physical manifestations. We will be our perfected selves, disability is a result of sin in the world, not necessarily sin in parents or the person themselves. They don’t know what they would be without their handicap, but they will have an eternity to figure it out, and it will be wonderful . What these people seem to be unclear on is how sin entered and corrupted the world physically and spiritually.
And the suggestion that God distributes abnormalities for his glory, yes, that can be true, just like the man born blind; when the disciples asked whether this man or his parents sinned that he should be born blind. Jesus said it was not either, (obviously not saying that they didn’t ever sin, but rather that there wasn’t a specific sin that caused this as a judgment) but for God‘s glory because he intended to heal it. And so God certainly allows a fallen creation to manifest in many ways, and he will use all things for his glory and the good of those who love him and are called according to his purpose. But even in all of these passages, we are always reminded that it will not always be that way. At some point he will restore our bodies to the perfect state that they were before the fall. This is another place where old earth creationism falls short because you have to allow that these defects and death were present before the sin of the man and woman.
Being made as God's image on earth is a status. But I dare day, we shouldn't put the emphasis on the body as the key element. It's not our materiality that makes us the image. The celestial beings are also an image for God in their domain, and it's not bodies that define their status as imagers, either. I think it's something metaphysical... It's the status of Lords over a dominion. So, I reject the idea of the necessity of bodies for the new creation, or the possible imperfections of those bodies. Here, the bodies are necessary to exercise dominion. In glory there will be different bodies for a different kind of dominion.
@@blakewidmer The answer is there too: To make the disciples recognize him, that he was the same person and that he is not a ghost or a figment of imagination, but a real entity that can interact with the physical universe. I don't deny the existence of a material body, only the centrality of it to the concept of imager. IS a DEAD man (that is disembodied) still an imager of God? Is he still a human, in Sheol? Is the conscient mind of a person in Sheol still a human? Did he change its nature? Maybe the questions are wrong in themselves, but they should be answered in a way or another, with some biblical argumentation.
@@marcusdumitru thanks for reply. Your view is interesting. I think there are other ways biblically speaking to talk about our role in “dominion” etc such as priesthood, but an image (hebrew tselem) is a concrete object and so I guess I just see the materiality as core to the idea. Also “glory” has a lot to do with exercising proper rule (psalm 8) within physical creation (over the birds and bears and fish of the sea, etc)
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Carmen is the best. So good
I want to find answers to many of the questions discussed as well. I eagerly await the sleep, rest, and a new body, just not tomorrow. Great conversation!
First two chapters of Job open up so much unseen realm theology, that I think can be inserted into this discussion
This interview/conversation opens up lots of questions. 🙂
My first thought is in Galatians and more as Paul uses the word to clothe or to put on. It would be interesting to try and put the context of being God’s image with what Paul is saying in the NT.
For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
- Galatians 3:27
and to put on the new self, created after the likeness of God in true righteousness and holiness.
- Ephesians 4:24
Just two of several instances where Paul uses this expression.
Perhaps Paul’s use of image could be included.
For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
- Romans 8:29
Really interesting but I struggle with the discussion about disability since clearly surgical interventions like hole in the heart surgery or cleft palate correction are legitimate.
One thing that is very unique to the Deaf community is the role of language which comes part and parcel with their embodied reality, and if all tribes and languages are going to be present in the New Jerusalem, then while we can debate whether Deaf persons will “hear” in the new creation, we should not dismiss the “identity and language and culture” that could still be maintained. As my brother once said, perhaps what will happen in new creation is that even he will understand sign language too! I liked Dr Imes mention of “obstructions to access” simply being removed. Perhaps nobody needs to change that much, but all the barriers are taken down.
You are a tselem (an idol) of God representing him on earth. What makes you an image is that you have a body on earth. An idol is a concrete item and so what makes you a tselem (idol) of God on earth is that you have a body.
As an idol, a representative, you don't receive the worship for yourself but you receive it on behalf of the unseen one.
You lose the glory of being human (tselem, an idol of God) when you don't perform your function. But failing your function doesn't make you less human. Not having certain capabilities, achievement and experience doesn't make you less human.
Yes! Good listening!
"The more humans we have, the more reminders there will be all over the place of the rule of God."
Who are these reminders for? Who are we "imaging" to? 🤔
"A temple is supposed to reflect glory to God"
But that only happens when you have "eyes to see" - that is, when someone or a culture pointed out the way.
That’s a powerful differentiation of being the image of God versus bearing his image. It was fascinating to hear from about the Hebrew language and context of what early Hebrews would have thought the language in Genesis to be. If that is correct, I think it’s a very transformational view of human beings in that despite the effect of sin in ourselves, we are the image of God. I think it speaks more intensely on how much our value, identity and worth comes from God. I think one question I would like to ask Dr. imes is - when we are regenerated into a new creation through putting our trust in Jesus, do we reveal more of his image in that sense? I thought thus was very fascinating.
I'm so glad you enjoyed this, Rebecca! Our new life in Christ empowers us to live in greater alignment with our true identity as God's image. As we're conformed to Christ, we actively live out the vocation we are intended to do.
I wouldn’t want to represent the age and limitations I have now in heaven with my glorified body. I would think the person who’s 103 would think the same.
Not being critical; nor criticizing; but you guys intellectualize you're way right out of the clear teaching of Scriptures! God is able to subdue all things to himself! His scars are unique to His mission and witness to coming untold generations of the Lord's death for the human race!
What clear teaching did they intellectualize themselves out of?
"The world has been marred by [original] sin."
So, either God, being omniscient, knew this was going to happen, and God planned everything this way and allowed sin to happen, or He didn't know it, and man, right from the start, defeated God's intended plan?
I would say that God's desire was for a world in which we could freely choose to relate to him. Sin is not what he wanted, but its a consequence of our freedom, which IS what he wanted.
@@CarmenJoyImesPhD "I would say that God's desire was for a world in which we could freely choose to relate to him."
Adam and Eve already did relate to him. God walked with them in the garden, and they had conversations together. The only purpose for God putting the tree in the garden was to cause sin. That's on God.
"Sin is not what he wanted"
Yet He put the tree there anyways.
And THEN God _also_ put talking snakes in the garden.
No, God didn't want talking snakes in the garden, and they happened anyways? God didn't know all that was going to happen?
In any other real life situation, the negligent parent is held accountable. But here, we give an all-knowing, all-powerful god a free pass, and blame the kids who literally don't know right from wrong.
The way I understand it is there was a war in heaven, and Satan was thrown down to the earth and took a third of the angels with him. When God created man, Satan was already there. God put Adam in the garden and made him a mate. God also put all of the trees in the garden along with the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. We don't know how long Adam and Eve lived in the garden in obedience. But we do know their own lust and desires drew them away. And Satan took advantage of the weakness. God surely knew the man he made would eventually succumb to his desire to know good and evil, which is why he sent his word in the likeness of flesh before the foundation (katabolē - throwing down) of the earth. Eph 1:4
@@jeroldmoore-wi6lt "there was a war in heaven, and Satan was thrown down to the earth and took a third of the angels with him. When God created man, Satan was already there."
So this war took place during Creation Week?
And is this war described anywhere in the Bible, or is this a fan-fiction story?
"we do know their own lust and desires drew them away."
And how do we know this?
The whole point of the story is that they didn't know right from wrong. They COULDN'T have, until AFTER they ate from the Tree of -Unnecessary Plot Complications- Knowledge of Good and Evil. Think about that for a moment.
And also, Eve didn't even exist yet, when God told Adam not to eat from the tree.
There’s a lot of Stretching going on here… will continue to listen but test the words. What if Adam and Eve’s creation? That original image before the fall? Jesus’ scars? Ok. What about when he transformed his appearance? Emmaeus road, etc.
What do you believe is being stretched & what do you mean by that?
Jesus has scars because it is to remind us what he did for us. The idea that you don’t know what you’re going to be if you didn’t have your handicap just shows that people are reducing themselves to their physical manifestations. We will be our perfected selves, disability is a result of sin in the world, not necessarily sin in parents or the person themselves. They don’t know what they would be without their handicap, but they will have an eternity to figure it out, and it will be wonderful . What these people seem to be unclear on is how sin entered and corrupted the world physically and spiritually.
And the suggestion that God distributes abnormalities for his glory, yes, that can be true, just like the man born blind; when the disciples asked whether this man or his parents sinned that he should be born blind. Jesus said it was not either, (obviously not saying that they didn’t ever sin, but rather that there wasn’t a specific sin that caused this as a judgment) but for God‘s glory because he intended to heal it.
And so God certainly allows a fallen creation to manifest in many ways, and he will use all things for his glory and the good of those who love him and are called according to his purpose.
But even in all of these passages, we are always reminded that it will not always be that way. At some point he will restore our bodies to the perfect state that they were before the fall. This is another place where old earth creationism falls short because you have to allow that these defects and death were present before the sin of the man and woman.
Being made as God's image on earth is a status. But I dare day, we shouldn't put the emphasis on the body as the key element. It's not our materiality that makes us the image.
The celestial beings are also an image for God in their domain, and it's not bodies that define their status as imagers, either.
I think it's something metaphysical... It's the status of Lords over a dominion.
So, I reject the idea of the necessity of bodies for the new creation, or the possible imperfections of those bodies. Here, the bodies are necessary to exercise dominion. In glory there will be different bodies for a different kind of dominion.
Then why does Jesus eat food and still have holes in his hands in his resurrected and glorified body?
@@blakewidmer The answer is there too: To make the disciples recognize him, that he was the same person and that he is not a ghost or a figment of imagination, but a real entity that can interact with the physical universe. I don't deny the existence of a material body, only the centrality of it to the concept of imager. IS a DEAD man (that is disembodied) still an imager of God? Is he still a human, in Sheol? Is the conscient mind of a person in Sheol still a human? Did he change its nature? Maybe the questions are wrong in themselves, but they should be answered in a way or another, with some biblical argumentation.
@@marcusdumitru thanks for reply. Your view is interesting. I think there are other ways biblically speaking to talk about our role in “dominion” etc such as priesthood, but an image (hebrew tselem) is a concrete object and so I guess I just see the materiality as core to the idea. Also “glory” has a lot to do with exercising proper rule (psalm 8) within physical creation (over the birds and bears and fish of the sea, etc)