We can sit here and debate or critique Westside technique all day, the truth is that there is something about THAT gym, that attitude, that atmosphere that is just different and savage compared to perhaps any other in this country. I don't think Westside method is for everyone, especially not raw lifters. However, I think anyone who trains at Westside or follows Westside philosophy will absolutely improve in whatever they are doing. That's really the key Westside brings to the table, and that is backed up by testimony from everyone who ever trained there, even if they didn't subscribe to everything Louie said. Mark Bell, Dave Tate, Wenning, Efferding, JM Blakely, and many other greatly respected coaches and powerlifters all agree about one thing when it comes to Westside... it brings out the absolute BEST in you, and the atmosphere pushes you beyond what you thought possible. There have been many guys who trained there who took the principles they acquired and became very successful coaches or businessmen in their own right. I named a few of those guys above. There's MORE to Westside than the method. That's the real truth of it.
In my opinion west side is the meat head douche bag old way of training, lot of short cuts with form and looking to game the game.. there is a funny ass video showing their guy squat next to Olympic lifters and it’s hilarious
@@sabertoothwallaby2937 Well, they have world records in small federations with not so many lifters, multi-ply is almost dead so a multi-ply world record is nowhere near as impressive as an ipf world record, but Westside likes to ignore this in order to boast about how great they are.
That was really interesting. It felt more like 15 minutes to me - that's what I like in your videos. The info is put together in a very approachable way.
Brandon Lilly got butt hurt as fuck over this video. He went on record to say that he couldn't even squat 600 pounds raw after he took his gear off and left westside.
You do realize that he got kicked out of WSBB for stealing and selling fake roids? Even though Louie and him have reconciled I'm disappointed he would still continue to bash Westside.
spot on chad!!! I'm a raw squatter but I use box squats as an accessory. free squatting is no issue I'm told I squat too deep lol but box squats for me are to really hit hips and abductors. love the content man
Love Louie and I do ''conjugate'' my way and they work. But I never run westside system because I compete raw. Id run a 6 weeks cycle peak program for meet, but Id never done westside peak cycle, like most people say raw lifters need to get used to the movement. Like what Ed Coan say stick to what ever works! Great video guys! (Y)
Things are constantly changing at Westside, over the last year I have seen more 5x5 and 6x6s on dynamic effort lower day done on the mens side than I have seen of the old 8x2 speed squats. Same on bench, tons more volume and things are constantly changing. I coach mostly raw lifters and I agree we need a ton more raw volume free squat work. I took some stuff from Jesse Norris' program and added it to what I was taught at Westside years ago and that's how we do things now.. We add in extra days after the main days all the time (mostly a front squat day). So do I program "Westside"..I guess not.Maybe your doctor friend trained WS wrong when he tried it. Ask Chuck V is there is sandbagging at Westside lol
The original westside template which is STILL VERY HEAVILY advocated by westside lifters, does say that in westside, you're doing max or dynamic effort every week. and for speed squats, 1-2x7-10 is still utilized as the main speed rep/set range for lifters at westside barbell club. So your variations of the westside barbell program may be very effective, its still certainly not westside. Also no one in this whole video said that lifters at westside barbell club were/ are sandbagging. And yes, raw lifters do indeed need more volume, which you noted, but that's not westside. Also you've seen more volume being done by westside lifters because they're lifting raw more, which is the ENTIRE point of this video, to show that traditional westside is not for raw lifters.
Well, first of all, this did seem like a rather neutral video and not just a long rant of westside bashing, so I really do appreciate that. Now, I won't go into the details of everything but just say some general stuff because referring to it all would take forever. On thing is the definition of westside. I can't very well know all the sources but to my understanding Louie has always talked about individuality in choice of exercises as well as individual weaknesses and so on. And while they rather largely use the same template, some guys at Westside, like some bench only guys, have strayed away from that template. What I am trying to say is that Westside in itself is done in a way that worked for the guys there rather similarly most of the time BUT imo it is still Westside, if some changes are made because making those changes is in the nature of the programme. It's not just something that you should blindly follow but rather constantly think about. Now I myself am not a world class lifter. I would say that at my best (before my recent injury) I was fairly strong on a national level, competing in the middleweights as a natty, junior RAW lifter. So I am certainly not among the best by any means but it's safe to say that I've been around the block and tried some things. In terms of hypertrophy, once I started using the concurrent method, I (over a few years) really blew up in strength and size compared to where I was before. Until my injury I also made rather steady improvements every year. If I compared myself to my usual competitors of the same height, I was definitely more muscular, most of the time. That's not to say anything about the importance of that fact, in the end strength is king in powerlifting, but in my own case, Westside was awesome for hypertrophy. I also noticed that the focus on the posterior chain was a godsend for me, as my lifts always improved better the more I hit that chain. I had a phase for 3 months where I listened to all the anti Westside articles and tried to switch my focus to quad training, front squats, high bar squats, close stance and all that (mind you, I don't squat very wide in competition as well, just because my mobility isn't well enough for that, so the movements should have been better in terms of specificity) with the same template and what happened? My squat dropped 10-20%, as did my deadlift. It was a disaster. Now I am not saying that this is how it is for everyone but for me, obviously, sticking to Louie's ideas worked better. Same goes for the deadlift. I used deadlift variations, sometimes 20% of my ME days to sometimes 50% or so of my ME days, but never used my comp style deadlift in training. And still, it is my strongest lift by far, making up roughly 40% of my total. So obviously, all this worked for me. I have switched to another system only once since 2012. I did so while I was in a weaker phase, just having finished a cut that went worse than it should have. Anyway, it felt good for about one and a half weeks, which is when the high frequency and high volume at complex barbell movements (the comp lifts) really took their toll. I had beat up wrists, elbows and knees, as well as a constantly cramped up QL muscle but most importantly, I injured my right glute, which kicked me out of the circuit for a year. This took its toll mentally, resulting in me losing the will to lift for quite a while and not getting back to my personal best since. I am just now in the process of really getting back up and reclaiming that drive to get to the top. As for the bench, I did manage to reach about the same strength or a bit more than that for a time, training with the same high frequency programme but bench only, but my technique went to shit, despite all that specific preparation that supposedly should have helped me. Now there are aspects of "westside" that work for a lot of people but not for me. I really struggled improving my bench despite getting really strong triceps (and always having had very strong shoulders). The reason was, simply, that my chest lacked. But "westside" is not just training your arms. It's training your weaknesses, which for most people means working their arms. I've trained a couple of people in my home gym over the years and I am the only one that lacked in the chest department. Everyone else lacked lockout and arm strength. So for them that was great. For me the weakness was just different and when I made the switch to more focus on my weaknesses, my bench went up by 15% in 2 months. So was the system the problem? No, it was just the way I used the system. I also have found that I made better progress not just maxing out but rather choosing max effort volume according to Prilepin's chart, i.e. I made smaller jumps in weight in order to have more heavy singles, doubles or triples (4-10 total reps in the 90% range). However, this may have led to my tendency to peak and burn out, then peak and burn out again. But I have always had that tendency, so who knows? I know that I am mostly rambling here and this is taking way too long to type out, so let me just conclude: - I see your arguments and I appreciate the effort to spell things out and reason - despite that, most of what Louie prescribes has worked so much better for me than anything else I ever did - I disagree with your definition of "Westside" (which I am unsure whether to even use as a term bc as far as I remember they only ever speak of the conjugate or concurrent method themselves) - building on that, one of THE corner stones of this system is individuality, subtle changes to cater to the one's personal needs and weakness analysis and work on those weaknesses. Having said that, I don't think that the rules of "Westside" can be set in stone as they are always treated to be - and building on that, I have made some minor changes for myself but feel certain that those don't change the nature of the system - finally I have never been seriously injured until I strayed away from the system So all in all: it just works for me. I can't speak for anyone else, really, but for me it was the best thing since sliced bread. But if other things work better for others, then they should do that. Just don't write this system off as being "just for equipped lifters" or "just for juice heads".
excellent discussion. i'd be interested to see your guys thoughts on a non-westside concurrent training system vs more of a block style periodization which seems to be more in line with the things i've seen on the JTS site
+The Strength Doc Thanks. In brief, the concurrent part is going to be where it falls down, so at phase potentiation it will be lacking, but keep in mind that is one of the lowest ranking principles so you could still have a very effective program.
Juggernaut Training Systems thanks for the response! i was expecting that to be the answer just didn't want to make any assumptions without hearing from you
Westside barbell system is best!! Have training 35 years, last 25 with Westside. It's about have to change moves, stretching, and i make body moves, witch are not part of Westside. Best system, thank's Louie!!
Conjugate is the only way I'll train. People go way overboard with specificity. If you make your normal training harder then what you have to do in competition, it's hard to lose. Period. I definitely gained strength fastest using a juggernaut type program. But I also gained nagging injuries, and mental fatigue to the point where I took a year off just because I couldn't stand training anymore. Linear periodization took the joy out of training for me. Conjugate allows to me to have fun with something different every single week. I'd rather gain strength slower over time and enjoy the process.
@@mac5917 Which over time leads to stagnation and injuries because the body has already become adapted to that specific stressor and needs a new one. It's basically like continuing to hammer wood after a nail is already in it. The nail (stressor) has already done it's job, the wood (body) needs another nail. If you keep hammering the same nail, the wood is eventually going to break. If pure specificity was the answer, then all we would need to do is squat, bench, and deadlift. Clearly that is not the case. Furthermore, if linear periodization was the answer, then we would all be inhumanly strong. Again, clearly false. Progress is slow, and it's not linear at all, so why would we use a linear system to progress?
This is gonna be an awesome series. I think u both did a good job stating the pros and cons of westside. I didn't see this being negative at all. This series can be helpful to a lot of ppl. Great idea and great video.
ME day is more so just to teach how to properly strain. And they also for DE they use 60% bar weight plus 20-30% band or chain tension. And they recommend just using 70-75-80% straight up weight if you don’t have access to that specialty stuff :)
Chernyak and Jay Schroeder have stated (paraphrase) that "speed work recovers the body". I am sure that the dynamic effort day does develop a form of "explosiveness" but there's a strong chance that recovery has been enhanced as well. Oh and by the way I like your GPP analysis.
I think you may be forgetting that at greater joint flexion the lifter is operating at way less than 90% with bands and chains. So there is a lot of work being done at 60 to 80% of every rep. It is far more complex than just attributing a percentage to a rep or set.
I think conjugate training can absolutely work for raw lifters provided you do the exercises that promote raw lifting. I don't know how much training Louie ever did with raw competitor other than with that SHW who was removed from membership due to not being able to be there enough - but the guy wasn't there long enough to see what he could do under that system and was already strong when he got there. I am friends with a guy who trained there and he has told me that just because the day calls for ME or DE does not mean it always ends up that way. If you're beat up, ME is not gonna happen. There's a lot of rehab work going on as well. Lots of people critique based on what info is out there, but remember, its only a template or guide. Louie isn't dumb. If he was gonna train raw competitors, it certainly would be different exercises and minor changes in percentages, sets, reps, etc, but the methods and theory would remain the same.
Yeah! I'm really looking forward to this series! I've been waiting for something like this since Powerliftingtowin ended his series. From what I've seen here, your conclusions seem pretty similar to his. Looking forward for more!
One thing that Louie Simmons continue to point to for effectiveness of the Westside method is the record board. He shows that his method produces many strong power lifters. Isn’t the proof in the pudding the results?
It would be, except those records are from sky high squats and soft locked benches and squats in the least competitive divisions that powerlifting has to offer.
it is very interesting to me that most Westside lifters are small. At least, smaller in the regard to RAW lifters. Such limited range of motion and lack of volume truly does limit muscle growth, which is very critical to natural RAW lifters. Great video. The haters will come, but I find all the points in this video extremely accurate. Plus, as said in previous comments, Chad does currently have the strongest PL team with him right now. Results speak for themselves
Have you ever met Dave Hoff? Jason Coker? Matt Wenning? They're all really, really big. Not to mention that guy who broke the American deadlift record from Westside. Can't remember his name
+David Brockmeier Well, I said in comparison to RAW lifters. Yes, Hoff is big, but compare him to Chad, Ray Williams, Brandon Allen, Josh Morris, etc. My point was that RAW lifters have to put more emphasis on every body part, and not just work on hamstrings for squats, or triceps for bench, etc....it's like Chad said. geared lifters put more emphasis on seperate parts, like rear delts for bench, whilst raw lifters must do more triceps and shoulder press, giving them a much bigger overall look.
Here, I am not a hater but I am a very astute thinker. Why don't you point out these extremely accurate points and school me. But take note of them first, because most are bashing methods, that have nothing to do with the system. JTS and WSB are systems, methods are used in these systems, and can be changed. Methods do not define systems, except possibly in the minds of newbs, or someone selling a different system So I will be waiting for these "points" that show the JTS system will work better than the WSB system.
+Tobias Ommer ...raw = lifter lift weight...geared = test elastic strength of fabric not lifter..critique clearly shows that the westside method is oriented towards geared lifters and will not suit raw...n yes it is a grt critique and i dont understand how your point makes it a poor one
+j.p. leahy because "supplements" means juice, not gear. at least "supplements" has been used to describe steroids by everyone else for years and years, so I dont think chad meant anything else
j.p. leahy There's no reason to get all condescending. You're getting at using equipment, which is an entirely different thing that Chad talked about but that I am certain he didn't mean when he talked about supplements. Whether you are insinuating that I am using powerlifting gear or illegal substances: I do neither. That assumption is ridiculous.
I watched the video and learned something today. i don't know it all I train conjugated periodization, volume, bodybuilding. All of the above Do I follow a concrete Westside template, with speed work, pendulum waves, and so forth? No Tons of strongman guys I train and compete with use pieces of WSBB, but not the entire system The video was professionally done, and you both speak with class, sophistication, and eloquence. Keep up the good work
Three knee surgeries (used box squats with chains and bands to recover), two shoulder surgeries( used bands/chains), tricep reattachment /ulnar nerve decompression(bands/chains)…used WestSide Barbell methodologies as therapeutic recovery. Most shall only hate on what the envy.
Wow great video. You guys could have just said why you don't like it and it would have been like 10 minutes, but you gave real reasons why it isn't optimal which I really appreciate. Learned a lot thank you.
Really enjoyed this discussion, felt like I learnt a lot about programming and progression in general as well as gaining a greater understanding of Westside
Amazing video. I can't wait to see the rest of the videos in this series. I just finished a conjugate program, and Im so glad that you addressed the phasic structure of it (even though conjugate isn't necessarily westside). Im a relatively new lifter, and long-term success is my main goal, thanks for clearing that up!
Box squats are great if you use a higher box, and your regular squat stance putting your quads into it instead of sitting back so it's mostly hips. When I was in high school, I took George Frenn's squat routine and modified it for myself using a higher seat, reps around 8, and my regular squat stance for the box squat. I also did full front squats. I didn't see any reason to do singles in the high box like Frenn since I could do 8 reps in the box squat with more than my max single. Remember, box squats started with Frenn and Peanuts West before there were squat suits.
Westside is for advanced lifters with multiple years of hypertropy/strength training, that most is obvious. I find it to be an effective system and the dynamic effort days are based on a pendulum progressive wave based on current 1rm %'s depending on either deadlifts, squat or bench and/or variations. I find the percentages of progression of 6x3 and 3x1 (circamax reps) effective for max effort while getting in some work on form/technique. Also the template, I follow every 4th week is repetition method instead of max effort and also restoration is implemented as well to promote circulation/recovery/volumization. Also enjoy how you can target weak points, and add them into assistance work post max/dynamic effort to correct any issues/weak points. I lift raw and make some minor modifications overall very effective program adapted from prior Soviet/Bulgarian training principles. Westside is a excellent blend of Experience, Science and application integrated into one system. Long live Westside Barbell and the God Father of powerlifting Louie Simmons.
+Mikkel Jørgensen LOL I hope you are kidding? Read the links all the information you seek is there, as to Soviet/Bulgarian training principles. louiesimmons.com/max-effort-method/ louiesimmons.com/the-conjugate-method/
+Travis Stilwell Yes, that is true but when I say a few minor modifications of the westside program, I'm referring to the use of any gear or for example ultra wide stance squats, still wide though... the template, reps, sets, %'s etc. stay the same. Taking in account minor variations, it's still the westside protocol minus the gear and technical aspect of the lifts ie. slightly narrower squat/bench width grip.
+bigphatphuck phillycheesesteak I understand that but true west side doesn't have a 4th week for a repetition week. True west side your doing 3 week waves there is no 4 week. So it's a modified west side which in reality like the video says it's not actually west side it's just conjugate. But I agree with adding a week for reps in there, that would prob work pretty good
I would love more of a critique on the conjugate methodology concept as opposed to what Louie Simmons is doing because many people come to the conclusion that things need to be modified so they definitely aren't doing exactly what Louie is, so in that case it's not Westside. When looking at different periodization models choosing to do a block/phasic system or training multiple qualities within the week can become confusing. For instance, I used to do what Charles Poliquin espoused with a phase of accumulation and then a phase of intensification but there wasn't enough discussion on how long those phases should be and he used a 3 rep bracket such as 3-5 reps, 6-8 reps, 2-4 reps, 8-10 reps but the problem is some of those can easily overlap poorly where the contrast seems to small. In your opinion is a conjugate system worth doing at all, or is block periodization always better if it's intelligently designed?
I was doing 5x5 and 5x6 volume work, with more abbreviated routines, as a powerlifter in the early '90s. Long before 'Starting Strength' and the like. I got it from Brooks Kubik and it was the best way for me for building strength with hypertrophy. I can't say I agree with the 'lots of sets' view. I went from nothing to a 300lb bench with 2-3 workouts a week with only 6-8 sets for a movement per WEEK. With below average genetics. 'Basics, 'breviated and best' takes you a very long way. Also it's not like people weren't doing pin-presses, floor press etc and other exercises to assist lift training. This was knocking about long before Westside or 'scientific training'.
Great video. Well worth the time. As a raw lifter, it's good to hear about programs that don't fit my goals. Obviously Westside works for some people, but one size definitely doesn't fit everyone.
That's the beautiful thing about body building and Power lifting ... there are a lot of different ways to get a result... and some work better for others that don't do Shit for some... I love west side... but I also listen sincerely when someone else who knows their Shit extensively and talks about the subject. Cheers and hails....
They don't know their shit extensively, at least when it comes to Westside Conjugate. For example, they complained that they didn't have good gains and volume when they only worked up to a max. They put MINIMAL effort into the MAX effort method, of course it didn't work; Louie follows Prilepin's guideline of 4-10 90%+ sets, and the people he's coached like Mark Bell and Laura Phelps also include a back off set of around 80% for either 2x5 or amrap for extra volume
@@CyberdarkHellKaiser I wasn't saying that they knew that specifically , more just that they had knowledge of the subject... Westside teaches Westside best...
There's a difference between general and specific physical preparednes, and they did both at Westside. The wide stance was used to recruit as much muscle mass as possible. The tricep focus on the bench was to prevent shoulder injuries and so on. They also did a lot of volume. This critique makes little sense.
I've got to do a critique of Westside for my MSc program. It would be really helpful to know a couple of research papers you gentlemen used for this video.
looks like training partial ranges of motion for partial lifts. Seems pretty counter intuitive for discerning athletes who are concerned with quality movements through full range of motion.
Juggernaut Training Systems the success of westside, and it is successful, is the hyper competitive atmosphere. One Can argue about training techniques all day long but there is no argument that a super competitive atmosphere will produce champions. More gyms would do well to mimic the atmosphere rather than focusing on the particular training methods.
It would be cool to see a video looking at how Westside works for an athlete in a sport outside of powerlifting and other weight training sports. It is apparent that there are a lot of problems with Westside for raw powerlifters who are trying to increase their total, but if could have less problems and more benefits for people in other sports. Would be cool to see a video on this since Westside is probably the most popular weight training protocol for athletes.
In brief, it places far too much emphasis on maximal effort lifting (1-3rm maxes weekly) which in addition to just not being the best way to develop maximal strength in the long term as discussed in this video, it is also unnecessarily stressful to the nervous system, taking up too much of the athletes energy on what basically amounts to very general work (sport training and spp drills are specific, lifting is general) this taking away from the amount of work with higher transfer can be done. Also, the lack of phasic structure is problematic, as sport training will benefit from times of more general and more specific training from a skill and energetic standpoint.
Louie said that the only people who train westside, train at westside. Not all the lifters from his gym are equipped either. But nothing wrong with a critique.
I have studied westside and visited there and also run it successfully as a raw lifter. Most of the information in this video is incorrect as there don't know westside.
Most of the critiques, like many others do, focus on the methods used, or known that are used. But Westside is a System, it is the methods you chose to use in that system that can debunk many critiques. Sure, do they tweak it for geared, clearly. Can you tweak it for raw? Clearly. Most, not all of the critiques in the vid, are based around their choice of methods for geared comps and clearly they would be different for someone using the system for raw. The critiques most relevant to compare should between the JTS system and the WSB system, but is not as easy to do because of individual variance. Not trying to bash, just make some points, and I appreciate all that JTS is doing for the community.
I love listening to west side content, and Louie was such a good spokesperson for his methods that every so often I’m thinking “I’m gonna do it, conjugate let’s go” then I watch dr mike and I’m like “oh yeah, not for me lol”
really like this video im a westside raw lifter but i program myself and it is heavily modified for me i box squat until my last 2 squat sessions i do believe that its not for beginners i lifted for 12 years before westside just my two cents also i do appreciate these videos they are helpful thanks bob
I totally understand with what they’re saying but the problem with their negative critiques is, Louie Simmons’s methods has broken records that haven’t been broken to this day. If there was a better way to do things, how come no one’s doing it to the point where they’ll break Westside barbells records? That’s like critiquing Floyd Mayweathers undefeated boxing style. But what you guys say makes sense. But we need logistical illustrations. Logic, in this case, says that Louie’s system is better than the rest. Right Dave Hoff?
Most people are saying this is a "low blow" or talking shit about conjugate/westside. But he said many times that this is not about conjugate or congruent training its about "Westside" and simply stated his opinions towards westside and things he likes and does not agree with. We all know louie is great at what he does and what he does works for the people he trains.
a few things I love about the westside training style, is the mathematical approach. Not saying other programs don't work, but westside has you make choices that aren't arbitrary. If I have a 365 raw bench, and I want to get it to the level of the 400 pound bencher, I can use the prilepin's chart to decide what my speed work should look like. Once I get to a point where I can complete a pendulum wave with the same weight, speed and volume as the 400 pound bencher, the likelyhood is I will also bench close to 400. The numbers aren't arbitrary like in some other programs. Westside actually makes arguments for why you are using a certain percentage, band tension etc... it's not by feel. Even the special exercises are regulated on both a group level and an individual level. I read this article where louie talks about the "web" for squatting. If you want a 500 pound squat, you must get the special exercises up to the level of the other 500 pound squatters. If you are severely lacking in say, good mornings, when compared to the others, you know what you need to work on (at least it's an indication). In olympic lifting, there are plenty of charts that use a web for the snatch and the clean and jerk, so why not have it for powerlifting? This is, in my opinion, the beauty of westside. It bases the training on logical arguments, rather than just trying things out (though Louie does experiment a lot too). Every workout should have a clear purpose :). This is also why I like Chad and this youtube channel, because his ideas on block periodization also make it so that each block/workout has a defined purpose.
Prilepin's Chart should probably be taken with many grains of salt for powerlifters. It is a retroactive look at what was the most successful volume/intensity/ranges for elite Russian weightlifters and weightlifting and powerlifting frankly aren't nearly as similar as people want to think they are.
+Juggernaut Training Systems I agree. I just use it as a starting point when coaching or writing programs for myself. For the bench, the reps per set can be quite a bit higher though. even with 6x6 @ 70-75% (double the optimal total lifts), my bar speed and technique was pretty good. tried it today. So I will likely increase the "optimal lifts" number for myself a bit.
Great video. I wanted to say that there is more to accommodating resistance than assisting the top part of the lifts that need to be emphasized for the "shirt and suit elite". When one wants to use the barbell in let's say the bench press for "explosiveness" accommodating resistance eliminates that "deceleration" that takes place. Very valuable. In addition (not to be a name dropper) But Dragomir Cioroslan told me once (years ago) that a (any) routine designed to improve strength MUST satisfy 2 factors-Maximum Nervous system stimulus AND hypertrophy. He reiterated immediately- YOU MUST HAVE BOTH!
There is still a deceleration no matter bands or chains, if there wasn’t, the bar wouldn’t stop at the top of the lift, it would leave your hands. If looking for upper body explosiveness, for say a football lineman or shot putter, supine medball throw variations and pushups onto boxes will be much more useful.
I completely agree with you. But if I am not mistaken that's what Louie stated concerning the purpose of bands and chains . I do not doubt that "explosive push-ups" and med ball throws would be a "go to" for football lineman and/or shot putters .
Every time I try and construct a Westside type program with an appropriate stimulus on the secondary day, it pretty much comes out looking like a 4 day Texas Method.
I think this is great. It is very fair, and i dont see this as bashing at all. I would like to see sheiko, cube, ed coans program, and maybe some programs of other elite lifters. I would also like to hear what changes for "non-tested lifter" and what programs work better for stronger lifter, 700+ squats do a lot of cns damage. I feel like taking a nap after, not doing volume work lol
I’m so glad I found this video. I’m forever challenged on why I default to building volume - my 5sx5r with the same weight and building my 10 rep sets - but I’m reestablishing a base strength. There is only so many times I can gain incremental increases on a max rep without risking injury. I struggle to articulate why I train the way I do but you put it very simply. We must go through these phases. Thank you for the video!
@@borisrovchenko7747 Well planned conjugate training can fit anyone but the training done at Westside was most prevalent and got the most records with equipped powerlifting Although a lot of their training was raw and they were all obviously super strong People like Matt Wenning adapted Westside to his own version of conjugate after he left and took the world records at a Westside meet So he got stronger and broke world records after he LEFT Westside because he fine tuned his training and actually allowed deload weeks and emphasized recovery He also had world records in raw powerlifting So conjugate works for most anyone as long as you know how to plan it but the balls to the wall 100mph every day training with Westside works best if you're equipped You need to be an animal to hold 900lbs in your hands for a bench or 1200lbs in a squat even in a suit or shirt but with the assistance of the suits acting as a sort of "second muscle" and extra support they can get away with doing dynamic effort work that's too heavy and immense band tension that gets lighter at the bottom of the lift Raw lifters need to build more muscle and get in good volume and work capacity Westside did a lot of that but it needs to be tweaked and changed here and there to best fit someone who isn't a 300lb, world record holder, maniac, in prime 90s-00s Westside, and on steroids
I think that there's a balance to be found when it comes to specificity. People critique westside due to exercise selection (a criticism I agree with), but the problem with most other powerlifting programs is that they almost NEVER have the lifters max out, when lifting the heaviest we can for one rep is literally what the sport is about. Of course, the problem with maxing out, is that when we max out on the same movement too often, we reach heavily diminished returns. Perhaps the truth is somewhere in the middle. Do perhaps 80% of your training with the main lifts at submaximal intensities, but also add maxes on slightly different exercises like once every third week or so. Just my two cents. I feel like both styles of training seem to compromise something, but maybe that's unavoidable.
Good video. I respect Louie for powerlifting, but in weightlifting (my sport), he's completely lost. The Soviet sports research is designed for weightlifting, and the "special exercises" are largely exercises of moderate-high specificity. For example, a "special exercise" for the clean might be the clean from blocks. A "special exercise" for the jerk might be a jerk dip.
I would like to point out some things. Exercise selection of westside is based on needs of lifter, geared/raw lifters exercises differ as they differ among raw lifters and so forth. About quads, pecs and difference between geared/raw, u say "traditional real westside system neglects those muscles", Louie has stressed the importance of individual needs. For raw lifter it can mean bigger emphasiz on pecs rather than triceps, but it could still be triceps, delts, lats etc that lifter needs to focus on. Louie says raw lifters need squat more on narrow stance etc, its once again about lifters needs. Talking about box squats and bands, u say bands/chains overload upper part of lift and that's good for geared but not raw, then u say box squat's ain't good either for raw even though they overload down part of lift. Wheres the logic? Bands aren't just variation of strenght curve btw which u dont seem to consider at any time. Also box squats arent always done ultra wide or high, they can be done narrow and as deep as neccesary for lifter. About intensity and volume. Westside lacks hypertrophy work in ur opinion bc they dont do 5*5*80% or so in squat? They have assistance work to take care of mass gains, if its neccesary for lifter. Also they dont have to work to 1RM in ME, they can do it for 5RM followed by more sets of five etc with lower weight for the same purposes u advocate 5*5 etc. Thinking DE is light day isn't true either. It isn't 36 reps with 60%, u get more like 36 reps with 75-85% bc of bands and chains. Louie stresses importance of extra work outs which aren't mentioned here. It's key to add more volume and frequence, add more technique work etc those things that u critize westside lacking. Just some thougths. Cheers. PS. I lift raw and don't do westside style.
I'd have loved for Louie to have been in on that discussion. I certainly don't agree with everything he, (or you) does, but it would have made for a fantastic debate.
I just want Rippetoe and Simmons to have a formal debate, it would really be amazing to see them go back and forth explaining their methods and reasons (since they are so opposite)
Hard to deny that it works for a few certain people? Is this a case for this is great geared pharma enhanced athletes? I do not say either is bad just think a lot of programs work or dont work based on the person and where they are in the lifting journey.
hey chad, are you going to post the interview you did with matt wenning?? really interested to watch that one. 2 great strength coaches having a chat..
Great video. Clears up many misconceptions about Westside. Wish I could have seen this video 10 years ago, would have saved me the time it took me to realize Westisde is not for raw lifters.
It would be extremely cool to see your thoughts on Sheiko's popular templates. I think this would be great as the blocks don't follow the general LP style that most popular programs do nowadays.
Train like you compete. If you compete suited and shirted then it behooves you to train to maximize your ability to use those tools to your advantage. If you plan to compete raw, train raw...not sure why it's a "disadvantage" of a method to train as you plan to compete.?
Great video you guys always put out great content. Parts of conjugate training like variation to fix weak points ("you can't fix your squat by squatting you need to do other exercises that fix the source of your weak points") makes some sense to me but when learned individuals like Chad and Mike disagree in favour of more specificity in training I find it a difficult to reconcile the two. Matt Wenning stands behind conjugate training and westside principles (i.e. more lat engagement on the bench, hip/glute dominant squats with a more vertical shin angle) and clearly has a lot of success with it. Is someone like him the exception to the rule? Do PED's dictate what training philosophy is optimal for the individual?
Make sure the remember that Westside is a conjugate system but not all conjugate systems are Westside. Matt is certainly very successful with more Westside inspired training but if you look at top raw lifting, he is in the small minority in his training style. Drug use will influence MRV and many other important factors but those can usually be addressed with adjustments to training. Read this: www.jtsstrength.com/articles/2015/08/25/snowflake-training/
+Juggernaut Training Systems Thanks so much for the prompt reply, looking forward to more of these. I purchased Scientific Principles a few months ago and thought it was great anyone reading this should get it.
Just my thoughts over Specificity...the large amount of variation seems to develop your overall physical strength to the point of being able to do more on competitive lifts. developing one movement becomes stale after a while yet becoming stronger in other lifts seem to affect all lifts because you are developing the body as a single unit to lift more regardless of the lift..I was recently listening to Brian shaw the strongman competitor who stated the he was never sure on how much he could actually lift on any one specific movement simply because he never really went all out at the gym with that lift. its only at competition that he would see his results. So not know your max deadlift or squat is not as important as knowing that you got stronger in other lifts to include your competitive lifts...just my thought and is what I find appealing about overall strength training. Not to say that I disagree with what has been said here; I agree with most points stated here but thought on overall physical development which you did address...develop specificity before moving on to another movement...agree
We can sit here and debate or critique Westside technique all day, the truth is that there is something about THAT gym, that attitude, that atmosphere that is just different and savage compared to perhaps any other in this country. I don't think Westside method is for everyone, especially not raw lifters. However, I think anyone who trains at Westside or follows Westside philosophy will absolutely improve in whatever they are doing. That's really the key Westside brings to the table, and that is backed up by testimony from everyone who ever trained there, even if they didn't subscribe to everything Louie said. Mark Bell, Dave Tate, Wenning, Efferding, JM Blakely, and many other greatly respected coaches and powerlifters all agree about one thing when it comes to Westside... it brings out the absolute BEST in you, and the atmosphere pushes you beyond what you thought possible. There have been many guys who trained there who took the principles they acquired and became very successful coaches or businessmen in their own right. I named a few of those guys above. There's MORE to Westside than the method. That's the real truth of it.
Equipped = very gay
@@CCSABCD No, very gay is what you turned out to be, despite all the efforts of your parents to find you a mate.
@@maxxxmodelz4061 No need to get so butthurt gay man
@@CCSABCD My butt never hurts, gay for pay.
@@maxxxmodelz4061 Why are you telling everyone what you do for money man, have some privacy
I get the feeling from watching this that Chad truly hates Westside, while Dr. Mike really doesn't mind it.
In my opinion west side is the meat head douche bag old way of training, lot of short cuts with form and looking to game the game.. there is a funny ass video showing their guy squat next to Olympic lifters and it’s hilarious
How interesting. In all seriousness, why is westside hated, they have a lot of world records right? They're one of the best yes?
@@sabertoothwallaby2937 Well, they have world records in small federations with not so many lifters, multi-ply is almost dead so a multi-ply world record is nowhere near as impressive as an ipf world record, but Westside likes to ignore this in order to boast about how great they are.
@@emiljorgensen5340 then why have they begun training raw and novice powerlifters in the past several years? Your opinion sounds straight from 2002
@@Theroadneverending It's just a different sport than raw powerlifting. Don't compare them.
That was really interesting. It felt more like 15 minutes to me - that's what I like in your videos. The info is put together in a very approachable way.
Brandon Lilly got butt hurt as fuck over this video. He went on record to say that he couldn't even squat 600 pounds raw after he took his gear off and left westside.
You do realize that he got kicked out of WSBB for stealing and selling fake roids? Even though Louie and him have reconciled I'm disappointed he would still continue to bash Westside.
Source on that?
"supplements"
LOL I thought the same thing
steroids
me: (is natural, lifts raw, running westside and making progress) alrighty
@ 5:15 obvious acne on deltoids. I think it's fair to say Westside isn't the only ones using "supplements."
im pretty sure everyone knows mike is on the soviet supplements xD
spot on chad!!! I'm a raw squatter but I use box squats as an accessory. free squatting is no issue I'm told I squat too deep lol but box squats for me are to really hit hips and abductors. love the content man
Love Louie and I do ''conjugate'' my way and they work. But I never run westside system because I compete raw. Id run a 6 weeks cycle peak program for meet, but Id never done westside peak cycle, like most people say raw lifters need to get used to the movement. Like what Ed Coan say stick to what ever works! Great video guys! (Y)
They train raw nearly year round
juggernaut training systems I appreciate the info y'all share and will apply it to my training keep up the good work
You two talking together is amazing ! The depth of knowledge between the two of you is insane! So much respect for both of you !
great stuff Chad as always. Wasn't just a video saying " this way is bad, don't do it bla bla buy this." nice in depth explanation I enjoyed it
Things are constantly changing at Westside, over the last year I have seen more 5x5 and 6x6s on dynamic effort lower day done on the mens side than I have seen of the old 8x2 speed squats. Same on bench, tons more volume and things are constantly changing. I coach mostly raw lifters and I agree we need a ton more raw volume free squat work. I took some stuff from Jesse Norris' program and added it to what I was taught at Westside years ago and that's how we do things now.. We add in extra days after the main days all the time (mostly a front squat day). So do I program "Westside"..I guess not.Maybe your doctor friend trained WS wrong when he tried it. Ask Chuck V is there is sandbagging at Westside lol
Thanks Gracie
The original westside template which is STILL VERY HEAVILY advocated by westside lifters, does say that in westside, you're doing max or dynamic effort every week. and for speed squats, 1-2x7-10 is still utilized as the main speed rep/set range for lifters at westside barbell club. So your variations of the westside barbell program may be very effective, its still certainly not westside. Also no one in this whole video said that lifters at westside barbell club were/ are sandbagging. And yes, raw lifters do indeed need more volume, which you noted, but that's not westside. Also you've seen more volume being done by westside lifters because they're lifting raw more, which is the ENTIRE point of this video, to show that traditional westside is not for raw lifters.
+Juggernaut Training Systems what are the categorical guidelines for smaller, medium and larger lifters?
Height would have to be taken into account but generally I'd say
Thank you. I think I have a decent idea now.
Well, first of all, this did seem like a rather neutral video and not just a long rant of westside bashing, so I really do appreciate that. Now, I won't go into the details of everything but just say some general stuff because referring to it all would take forever. On thing is the definition of westside. I can't very well know all the sources but to my understanding Louie has always talked about individuality in choice of exercises as well as individual weaknesses and so on. And while they rather largely use the same template, some guys at Westside, like some bench only guys, have strayed away from that template. What I am trying to say is that Westside in itself is done in a way that worked for the guys there rather similarly most of the time BUT imo it is still Westside, if some changes are made because making those changes is in the nature of the programme. It's not just something that you should blindly follow but rather constantly think about.
Now I myself am not a world class lifter. I would say that at my best (before my recent injury) I was fairly strong on a national level, competing in the middleweights as a natty, junior RAW lifter. So I am certainly not among the best by any means but it's safe to say that I've been around the block and tried some things. In terms of hypertrophy, once I started using the concurrent method, I (over a few years) really blew up in strength and size compared to where I was before. Until my injury I also made rather steady improvements every year. If I compared myself to my usual competitors of the same height, I was definitely more muscular, most of the time. That's not to say anything about the importance of that fact, in the end strength is king in powerlifting, but in my own case, Westside was awesome for hypertrophy. I also noticed that the focus on the posterior chain was a godsend for me, as my lifts always improved better the more I hit that chain. I had a phase for 3 months where I listened to all the anti Westside articles and tried to switch my focus to quad training, front squats, high bar squats, close stance and all that (mind you, I don't squat very wide in competition as well, just because my mobility isn't well enough for that, so the movements should have been better in terms of specificity) with the same template and what happened? My squat dropped 10-20%, as did my deadlift. It was a disaster. Now I am not saying that this is how it is for everyone but for me, obviously, sticking to Louie's ideas worked better. Same goes for the deadlift. I used deadlift variations, sometimes 20% of my ME days to sometimes 50% or so of my ME days, but never used my comp style deadlift in training. And still, it is my strongest lift by far, making up roughly 40% of my total. So obviously, all this worked for me.
I have switched to another system only once since 2012. I did so while I was in a weaker phase, just having finished a cut that went worse than it should have. Anyway, it felt good for about one and a half weeks, which is when the high frequency and high volume at complex barbell movements (the comp lifts) really took their toll. I had beat up wrists, elbows and knees, as well as a constantly cramped up QL muscle but most importantly, I injured my right glute, which kicked me out of the circuit for a year. This took its toll mentally, resulting in me losing the will to lift for quite a while and not getting back to my personal best since. I am just now in the process of really getting back up and reclaiming that drive to get to the top. As for the bench, I did manage to reach about the same strength or a bit more than that for a time, training with the same high frequency programme but bench only, but my technique went to shit, despite all that specific preparation that supposedly should have helped me.
Now there are aspects of "westside" that work for a lot of people but not for me. I really struggled improving my bench despite getting really strong triceps (and always having had very strong shoulders). The reason was, simply, that my chest lacked. But "westside" is not just training your arms. It's training your weaknesses, which for most people means working their arms. I've trained a couple of people in my home gym over the years and I am the only one that lacked in the chest department. Everyone else lacked lockout and arm strength. So for them that was great. For me the weakness was just different and when I made the switch to more focus on my weaknesses, my bench went up by 15% in 2 months. So was the system the problem? No, it was just the way I used the system. I also have found that I made better progress not just maxing out but rather choosing max effort volume according to Prilepin's chart, i.e. I made smaller jumps in weight in order to have more heavy singles, doubles or triples (4-10 total reps in the 90% range). However, this may have led to my tendency to peak and burn out, then peak and burn out again. But I have always had that tendency, so who knows?
I know that I am mostly rambling here and this is taking way too long to type out, so let me just conclude:
- I see your arguments and I appreciate the effort to spell things out and reason
- despite that, most of what Louie prescribes has worked so much better for me than anything else I ever did
- I disagree with your definition of "Westside" (which I am unsure whether to even use as a term bc as far as I remember they only ever speak of the conjugate or concurrent method themselves)
- building on that, one of THE corner stones of this system is individuality, subtle changes to cater to the one's personal needs and weakness analysis and work on those weaknesses. Having said that, I don't think that the rules of "Westside" can be set in stone as they are always treated to be
- and building on that, I have made some minor changes for myself but feel certain that those don't change the nature of the system
- finally I have never been seriously injured until I strayed away from the system
So all in all: it just works for me. I can't speak for anyone else, really, but for me it was the best thing since sliced bread. But if other things work better for others, then they should do that. Just don't write this system off as being "just for equipped lifters" or "just for juice heads".
Thank you for sharing this story. I hope you managed to get back to where you wanted to be
excellent discussion. i'd be interested to see your guys thoughts on a non-westside concurrent training system vs more of a block style periodization which seems to be more in line with the things i've seen on the JTS site
+The Strength Doc Thanks. In brief, the concurrent part is going to be where it falls down, so at phase potentiation it will be lacking, but keep in mind that is one of the lowest ranking principles so you could still have a very effective program.
Juggernaut Training Systems thanks for the response! i was expecting that to be the answer just didn't want to make any assumptions without hearing from you
+Juggernaut Training Systems think you'll ever do a video series for older strength athletes (banged up 40+yr olds)?
Great video lads. Would love to see a video on your thoughts with regards to frequency of the lifts and how it changes.
Thanks. Here ya go: th-cam.com/video/-iV1N4gjGoA/w-d-xo.html
Westside barbell system is best!! Have training 35 years, last 25 with Westside. It's about have to change moves, stretching, and i make body moves, witch are not part of Westside. Best system, thank's Louie!!
Subscribed and I also purchased your book 7 scientific principles of strength training and it helped me massively. Many thanks guys.
Conjugate is the only way I'll train. People go way overboard with specificity. If you make your normal training harder then what you have to do in competition, it's hard to lose. Period. I definitely gained strength fastest using a juggernaut type program. But I also gained nagging injuries, and mental fatigue to the point where I took a year off just because I couldn't stand training anymore. Linear periodization took the joy out of training for me. Conjugate allows to me to have fun with something different every single week. I'd rather gain strength slower over time and enjoy the process.
hell yeah
Too much specificity causes injuries
@@Yeomannnexactly, You dont have time to recover from that specific stimulus
@@mac5917 Which over time leads to stagnation and injuries because the body has already become adapted to that specific stressor and needs a new one. It's basically like continuing to hammer wood after a nail is already in it. The nail (stressor) has already done it's job, the wood (body) needs another nail. If you keep hammering the same nail, the wood is eventually going to break. If pure specificity was the answer, then all we would need to do is squat, bench, and deadlift. Clearly that is not the case. Furthermore, if linear periodization was the answer, then we would all be inhumanly strong. Again, clearly false. Progress is slow, and it's not linear at all, so why would we use a linear system to progress?
This is gonna be an awesome series. I think u both did a good job stating the pros and cons of westside. I didn't see this being negative at all. This series can be helpful to a lot of ppl. Great idea and great video.
ME day is more so just to teach how to properly strain. And they also for DE they use 60% bar weight plus 20-30% band or chain tension. And they recommend just using 70-75-80% straight up weight if you don’t have access to that specialty stuff :)
As someone who is in exercise science I love this channel!!!
Love this, thanks guys. Had no idea about hypertrophy phases being beneficial 20+ weeks down the line. Guess I've been too impatient.
Chernyak and Jay Schroeder have stated (paraphrase) that "speed work recovers the body".
I am sure that the dynamic effort day does develop a form of "explosiveness" but there's a strong
chance that recovery has been enhanced as well. Oh and by the way I like your GPP analysis.
I think you may be forgetting that at greater joint flexion the lifter is operating at way less than 90% with bands and chains. So there is a lot of work being done at 60 to 80% of every rep. It is far more complex than just attributing a percentage to a rep or set.
great talk ! DUP vs block periodization next?
I think conjugate training can absolutely work for raw lifters provided you do the exercises that promote raw lifting. I don't know how much training Louie ever did with raw competitor other than with that SHW who was removed from membership due to not being able to be there enough - but the guy wasn't there long enough to see what he could do under that system and was already strong when he got there. I am friends with a guy who trained there and he has told me that just because the day calls for ME or DE does not mean it always ends up that way. If you're beat up, ME is not gonna happen. There's a lot of rehab work going on as well. Lots of people critique based on what info is out there, but remember, its only a template or guide. Louie isn't dumb. If he was gonna train raw competitors, it certainly would be different exercises and minor changes in percentages, sets, reps, etc, but the methods and theory would remain the same.
Yeah! I'm really looking forward to this series! I've been waiting for something like this since Powerliftingtowin ended his series. From what I've seen here, your conclusions seem pretty similar to his. Looking forward for more!
One thing that Louie Simmons continue to point to for effectiveness of the Westside method is the record board. He shows that his method produces many strong power lifters. Isn’t the proof in the pudding the results?
It would be, except those records are from sky high squats and soft locked benches and squats in the least competitive divisions that powerlifting has to offer.
Can you guys do The Texas Method?
+Taylor Plum Texas method is probably the best early intermediate program basically. Can't go wrong with it.
+Tushar Bharadwaj Mike and Chad probably don't like it. It's low volume and poorly balanced
it's a weekly peak. Chad and Dr. Israetel probably wont like it since they're a huge fan of block periodization even for novices
Not sure why they wouldn't like it. Chad uses what he calls the "Cowboy Method" which is just an inverted Texas method.
Why not? He is right.
Great critique! Very logical and remain objective throughout all arguments.
it is very logical but their starting premises are inaccurate due to a poor understanding of the methods
it is very interesting to me that most Westside lifters are small. At least, smaller in the regard to RAW lifters. Such limited range of motion and lack of volume truly does limit muscle growth, which is very critical to natural RAW lifters. Great video. The haters will come, but I find all the points in this video extremely accurate. Plus, as said in previous comments, Chad does currently have the strongest PL team with him right now. Results speak for themselves
Have you ever met Dave Hoff? Jason Coker? Matt Wenning? They're all really, really big. Not to mention that guy who broke the American deadlift record from Westside. Can't remember his name
+David Brockmeier Well, I said in comparison to RAW lifters. Yes, Hoff is big, but compare him to Chad, Ray Williams, Brandon Allen, Josh Morris, etc. My point was that RAW lifters have to put more emphasis on every body part, and not just work on hamstrings for squats, or triceps for bench, etc....it's like Chad said. geared lifters put more emphasis on seperate parts, like rear delts for bench, whilst raw lifters must do more triceps and shoulder press, giving them a much bigger overall look.
Here, I am not a hater but I am a very astute thinker. Why don't you point out these extremely accurate points and school me. But take note of them first, because most are bashing methods, that have nothing to do with the system. JTS and WSB are systems, methods are used in these systems, and can be changed. Methods do not define systems, except possibly in the minds of newbs, or someone selling a different system So I will be waiting for these "points" that show the JTS system will work better than the WSB system.
That's because raw lifters are on more drugs.
oh god yes. this series is gonna be amazing
love the supplements comment....best critique I've seen of the west side system. .love the channel great knowledge. .keep it up..
how is it great critique if people at the top of RAW lifting who train in different ways also juice to the max?
+Tobias Ommer ...raw = lifter lift weight...geared = test elastic strength of fabric not lifter..critique clearly shows that the westside method is oriented towards geared lifters and will not suit raw...n yes it is a grt critique and i dont understand how your point makes it a poor one
+j.p. leahy because "supplements" means juice, not gear. at least "supplements" has been used to describe steroids by everyone else for years and years, so I dont think chad meant anything else
+Tobias Ommer I don't think you get it kido, too many supplements for u I'd say
j.p. leahy There's no reason to get all condescending. You're getting at using equipment, which is an entirely different thing that Chad talked about but that I am certain he didn't mean when he talked about supplements. Whether you are insinuating that I am using powerlifting gear or illegal substances: I do neither. That assumption is ridiculous.
I watched the video and learned something today. i don't know it all
I train conjugated periodization, volume, bodybuilding. All of the above
Do I follow a concrete Westside template, with speed work, pendulum waves, and so forth? No
Tons of strongman guys I train and compete with use pieces of WSBB, but not the entire system
The video was professionally done, and you both speak with class, sophistication, and eloquence.
Keep up the good work
Matt Wenning should have been here to refute most of the negative points
th-cam.com/video/BdOfNhF43oQ/w-d-xo.html
Always learn so much from JTS. I think from some of the comments some people think conjugate periodization and Westside are the same thing.
It's crazy how different Dr. Mike sounds here compared to present day, and how different his mannerisms were.
Drugs do that massive amounts
Interview burley hawk
good point
Love West Side!!!💪💪
Three knee surgeries (used box squats with chains and bands to recover), two shoulder surgeries( used bands/chains), tricep reattachment /ulnar nerve decompression(bands/chains)…used WestSide Barbell methodologies as therapeutic recovery. Most shall only hate on what the envy.
Wow great video. You guys could have just said why you don't like it and it would have been like 10 minutes, but you gave real reasons why it isn't optimal which I really appreciate. Learned a lot thank you.
PH3 next
+hostelmaniac01 YES!
+Marco Rodriguez
Yaii!!!!
Would love to see Ph3!
Intensity is too high. You're expected to do 3x5 1xAMRAP with your 5 rep max in week 3.
That would be great. Hopefully someone at JTS notices this.
Really enjoyed this discussion, felt like I learnt a lot about programming and progression in general as well as gaining a greater understanding of Westside
They train for wearing a suit or shirt in comp. So it is effective for that style.
two words, Burley Hawk
PlutoTheGod he’s back at Westside btw. Looks to be lighter. Hope he’ll come out of retirement soon.
Amazing video. I can't wait to see the rest of the videos in this series. I just finished a conjugate program, and Im so glad that you addressed the phasic structure of it (even though conjugate isn't necessarily westside). Im a relatively new lifter, and long-term success is my main goal, thanks for clearing that up!
You seem to be missing the band tension on speed day. Bands get you to 75-85% range
and if you're doing DE work without bands you use those percentages with straight bar weight
Box squats are great if you use a higher box, and your regular squat stance putting your quads into it instead of sitting back so it's mostly hips. When I was in high school, I took George Frenn's squat routine and modified it for myself using a higher seat, reps around 8, and my regular squat stance for the box squat. I also did full front squats. I didn't see any reason to do singles in the high box like Frenn since I could do 8 reps in the box squat with more than my max single. Remember, box squats started with Frenn and Peanuts West before there were squat suits.
this is gonna be an awesome series.. looking forward to it!
Westside is for advanced lifters with multiple years of hypertropy/strength training, that most is obvious. I find it to be an effective system and the dynamic effort days are based on a pendulum progressive wave based on current 1rm %'s depending on either deadlifts, squat or bench and/or variations. I find the percentages of progression of 6x3 and 3x1 (circamax reps) effective for max effort while getting in some work on form/technique. Also the template, I follow every 4th week is repetition method instead of max effort and also restoration is implemented as well to promote circulation/recovery/volumization. Also enjoy how you can target weak points, and add them into assistance work post max/dynamic effort to correct any issues/weak points. I lift raw and make some minor modifications overall very effective program adapted from prior Soviet/Bulgarian training principles. Westside is a excellent blend of Experience, Science and application integrated into one system. Long live Westside Barbell and the God Father of powerlifting Louie Simmons.
+bigphatphuck phillycheesesteak Exactly which part of westside is "prior Soviet/Bulgarian training principles" LOL?
Like they said in the video if your changing the program it's not true west side then lol. But it is still a conjugate method of training
+Mikkel Jørgensen LOL I hope you are kidding? Read the links all the information you seek is there, as to Soviet/Bulgarian training principles.
louiesimmons.com/max-effort-method/
louiesimmons.com/the-conjugate-method/
+Travis Stilwell Yes, that is true but when I say a few minor modifications of the westside program, I'm referring to the use of any gear or for example ultra wide stance squats, still wide though... the template, reps, sets, %'s etc. stay the same. Taking in account minor variations, it's still the westside protocol minus the gear and technical aspect of the lifts ie. slightly narrower squat/bench width grip.
+bigphatphuck phillycheesesteak I understand that but true west side doesn't have a 4th week for a repetition week. True west side your doing 3 week waves there is no 4 week. So it's a modified west side which in reality like the video says it's not actually west side it's just conjugate. But I agree with adding a week for reps in there, that would prob work pretty good
You guys should do Daily undulating periodization
I think Westside recently moved to fives, instead of doubles. I know this video is seven years old.
I would love more of a critique on the conjugate methodology concept as opposed to what Louie Simmons is doing because many people come to the conclusion that things need to be modified so they definitely aren't doing exactly what Louie is, so in that case it's not Westside. When looking at different periodization models choosing to do a block/phasic system or training multiple qualities within the week can become confusing. For instance, I used to do what Charles Poliquin espoused with a phase of accumulation and then a phase of intensification but there wasn't enough discussion on how long those phases should be and he used a 3 rep bracket such as 3-5 reps, 6-8 reps, 2-4 reps, 8-10 reps but the problem is some of those can easily overlap poorly where the contrast seems to small. In your opinion is a conjugate system worth doing at all, or is block periodization always better if it's intelligently designed?
I was doing 5x5 and 5x6 volume work, with more abbreviated routines, as a powerlifter in the early '90s. Long before 'Starting Strength' and the like. I got it from Brooks Kubik and it was the best way for me for building strength with hypertrophy. I can't say I agree with the 'lots of sets' view. I went from nothing to a 300lb bench with 2-3 workouts a week with only 6-8 sets for a movement per WEEK. With below average genetics. 'Basics, 'breviated and best' takes you a very long way. Also it's not like people weren't doing pin-presses, floor press etc and other exercises to assist lift training. This was knocking about long before Westside or 'scientific training'.
Great video. Well worth the time. As a raw lifter, it's good to hear about programs that don't fit my goals. Obviously Westside works for some people, but one size definitely doesn't fit everyone.
That's the beautiful thing about body building and Power lifting ... there are a lot of different ways to get a result... and some work better for others that don't do Shit for some... I love west side... but I also listen sincerely when someone else who knows their Shit extensively and talks about the subject. Cheers and hails....
They don't know their shit extensively, at least when it comes to Westside Conjugate.
For example, they complained that they didn't have good gains and volume when they only worked up to a max. They put MINIMAL effort into the MAX effort method, of course it didn't work; Louie follows Prilepin's guideline of 4-10 90%+ sets, and the people he's coached like Mark Bell and Laura Phelps also include a back off set of around 80% for either 2x5 or amrap for extra volume
@@CyberdarkHellKaiser I wasn't saying that they knew that specifically , more just that they had knowledge of the subject... Westside teaches Westside best...
awesome upload. please keep them coming. learning a lot.
I'm glad you guys are doing this video series on programs! Great job with the video breakdown.
Really looking forward to this series!
There's a difference between general and specific physical preparednes, and they did both at Westside. The wide stance was used to recruit as much muscle mass as possible. The tricep focus on the bench was to prevent shoulder injuries and so on. They also did a lot of volume. This critique makes little sense.
I'm not an expert by any means. But the fact they are talking about Westside makes me know who the top dog is!
I've got to do a critique of Westside for my MSc program. It would be really helpful to know a couple of research papers you gentlemen used for this video.
Ollie Driver I’d buy their book on principles. I hope that has references. Outside of that they go from the dome.
looks like training partial ranges of motion for partial lifts. Seems pretty counter intuitive for discerning athletes who are concerned with quality movements through full range of motion.
There are no negatives to Westside!
Great review guys!
Westside's response to this video is over 140 World Records
in the loosest judged, least competitive divisions possible.
Juggernaut Training Systems the success of westside, and it is successful, is the hyper competitive atmosphere. One Can argue about training techniques all day long but there is no argument that a super competitive atmosphere will produce champions. More gyms would do well to mimic the atmosphere rather than focusing on the particular training methods.
You guy are the best. Thanks for changing my understanding of Westside training.
It would be cool to see a video looking at how Westside works for an athlete in a sport outside of powerlifting and other weight training sports. It is apparent that there are a lot of problems with Westside for raw powerlifters who are trying to increase their total, but if could have less problems and more benefits for people in other sports. Would be cool to see a video on this since Westside is probably the most popular weight training protocol for athletes.
In brief, it places far too much emphasis on maximal effort lifting (1-3rm maxes weekly) which in addition to just not being the best way to develop maximal strength in the long term as discussed in this video, it is also unnecessarily stressful to the nervous system, taking up too much of the athletes energy on what basically amounts to very general work (sport training and spp drills are specific, lifting is general) this taking away from the amount of work with higher transfer can be done. Also, the lack of phasic structure is problematic, as sport training will benefit from times of more general and more specific training from a skill and energetic standpoint.
+Juggernaut Training Systems Thanks for the response. This makes sense
Hey guys, could you make this available as an audio only version of the jugg life? Would love to be able to download and listen to it multiple times
Louie said that the only people who train westside, train at westside. Not all the lifters from his gym are equipped either. But nothing wrong with a critique.
I have studied westside and visited there and also run it successfully as a raw lifter. Most of the information in this video is incorrect as there don't know westside.
Great video not negative unlike the Westside supporters are saying keep it up!
I didn't say it was negative, I just disagree with some of it :P
Most of the critiques, like many others do, focus on the methods used, or known that are used. But Westside is a System, it is the methods you chose to use in that system that can debunk many critiques. Sure, do they tweak it for geared, clearly. Can you tweak it for raw? Clearly. Most, not all of the critiques in the vid, are based around their choice of methods for geared comps and clearly they would be different for someone using the system for raw. The critiques most relevant to compare should between the JTS system and the WSB system, but is not as easy to do because of individual variance. Not trying to bash, just make some points, and I appreciate all that JTS is doing for the community.
I love listening to west side content, and Louie was such a good spokesperson for his methods that every so often I’m thinking “I’m gonna do it, conjugate let’s go” then I watch dr mike and I’m like “oh yeah, not for me lol”
really like this video im a westside raw lifter but i program myself and it is heavily modified for me i box squat until my last 2 squat sessions i do believe that its not for beginners i lifted for 12 years before westside just my two cents also i do appreciate these videos they are helpful thanks
bob
I totally understand with what they’re saying but the problem with their negative critiques is, Louie Simmons’s methods has broken records that haven’t been broken to this day. If there was a better way to do things, how come no one’s doing it to the point where they’ll break Westside barbells records? That’s like critiquing Floyd Mayweathers undefeated boxing style. But what you guys say makes sense. But we need logistical illustrations. Logic, in this case, says that Louie’s system is better than the rest. Right Dave Hoff?
Most people are saying this is a "low blow" or talking shit about conjugate/westside. But he said many times that this is not about conjugate or congruent training its about "Westside" and simply stated his opinions towards westside and things he likes and does not agree with. We all know louie is great at what he does and what he does works for the people he trains.
a few things I love about the westside training style, is the mathematical approach. Not saying other programs don't work, but westside has you make choices that aren't arbitrary. If I have a 365 raw bench, and I want to get it to the level of the 400 pound bencher, I can use the prilepin's chart to decide what my speed work should look like. Once I get to a point where I can complete a pendulum wave with the same weight, speed and volume as the 400 pound bencher, the likelyhood is I will also bench close to 400. The numbers aren't arbitrary like in some other programs. Westside actually makes arguments for why you are using a certain percentage, band tension etc... it's not by feel. Even the special exercises are regulated on both a group level and an individual level. I read this article where louie talks about the "web" for squatting. If you want a 500 pound squat, you must get the special exercises up to the level of the other 500 pound squatters. If you are severely lacking in say, good mornings, when compared to the others, you know what you need to work on (at least it's an indication). In olympic lifting, there are plenty of charts that use a web for the snatch and the clean and jerk, so why not have it for powerlifting?
This is, in my opinion, the beauty of westside. It bases the training on logical arguments, rather than just trying things out (though Louie does experiment a lot too). Every workout should have a clear purpose :). This is also why I like Chad and this youtube channel, because his ideas on block periodization also make it so that each block/workout has a defined purpose.
Prilepin's Chart should probably be taken with many grains of salt for powerlifters. It is a retroactive look at what was the most successful volume/intensity/ranges for elite Russian weightlifters and weightlifting and powerlifting frankly aren't nearly as similar as people want to think they are.
+Juggernaut Training Systems I agree. I just use it as a starting point when coaching or writing programs for myself. For the bench, the reps per set can be quite a bit higher though. even with 6x6 @ 70-75% (double the optimal total lifts), my bar speed and technique was pretty good. tried it today. So I will likely increase the "optimal lifts" number for myself a bit.
+Juggernaut Training Systems I wish there were similar studies done on powerlifters. lol
Great video. I wanted to say that there is more to accommodating resistance than assisting the top part
of the lifts that need to be emphasized for the "shirt and suit elite". When one wants to use the barbell in let's
say the bench press for "explosiveness" accommodating resistance eliminates that "deceleration" that takes place.
Very valuable. In addition (not to be a name dropper) But Dragomir Cioroslan told me once (years ago) that a (any) routine designed to improve strength MUST satisfy 2 factors-Maximum Nervous system stimulus AND
hypertrophy. He reiterated immediately- YOU MUST HAVE BOTH!
There is still a deceleration no matter bands or chains, if there wasn’t, the bar wouldn’t stop at the top of the lift, it would leave your hands. If looking for upper body explosiveness, for say a football lineman or shot putter, supine medball throw variations and pushups onto boxes will be much more useful.
I completely agree with you. But if I am not mistaken that's what Louie stated concerning the purpose of bands and chains . I do not doubt that "explosive push-ups" and med ball throws would be a "go to" for football lineman and/or shot putters .
Every time I try and construct a Westside type program with an appropriate stimulus on the secondary day, it pretty much comes out looking like a 4 day Texas Method.
I think this is great. It is very fair, and i dont see this as bashing at all. I would like to see sheiko, cube, ed coans program, and maybe some programs of other elite lifters. I would also like to hear what changes for "non-tested lifter" and what programs work better for stronger lifter, 700+ squats do a lot of cns damage. I feel like taking a nap after, not doing volume work lol
I’m so glad I found this video. I’m forever challenged on why I default to building volume - my 5sx5r with the same weight and building my 10 rep sets - but I’m reestablishing a base strength. There is only so many times I can gain incremental increases on a max rep without risking injury. I struggle to articulate why I train the way I do but you put it very simply. We must go through these phases. Thank you for the video!
This critique is basically "why a program that wasn't designed for raw lifters doesn't work the best for raw lifters" oh wow that's neat and obvious
So louie's methodes are only for Equipped lifters?
@@borisrovchenko7747 Well planned conjugate training can fit anyone but the training done at Westside was most prevalent and got the most records with equipped powerlifting
Although a lot of their training was raw and they were all obviously super strong
People like Matt Wenning adapted Westside to his own version of conjugate after he left and took the world records at a Westside meet
So he got stronger and broke world records after he LEFT Westside because he fine tuned his training and actually allowed deload weeks and emphasized recovery
He also had world records in raw powerlifting
So conjugate works for most anyone as long as you know how to plan it but the balls to the wall 100mph every day training with Westside works best if you're equipped
You need to be an animal to hold 900lbs in your hands for a bench or 1200lbs in a squat even in a suit or shirt but with the assistance of the suits acting as a sort of "second muscle" and extra support they can get away with doing dynamic effort work that's too heavy and immense band tension that gets lighter at the bottom of the lift
Raw lifters need to build more muscle and get in good volume and work capacity
Westside did a lot of that but it needs to be tweaked and changed here and there to best fit someone who isn't a 300lb, world record holder, maniac, in prime 90s-00s Westside, and on steroids
@@BulkBrogan. got it, thanks mate💪 i get it💪💪
I think that there's a balance to be found when it comes to specificity. People critique westside due to exercise selection (a criticism I agree with), but the problem with most other powerlifting programs is that they almost NEVER have the lifters max out, when lifting the heaviest we can for one rep is literally what the sport is about. Of course, the problem with maxing out, is that when we max out on the same movement too often, we reach heavily diminished returns. Perhaps the truth is somewhere in the middle. Do perhaps 80% of your training with the main lifts at submaximal intensities, but also add maxes on slightly different exercises like once every third week or so. Just my two cents. I feel like both styles of training seem to compromise something, but maybe that's unavoidable.
What you've just suggested is already on a conjugated track. Too much specificity will cause injuries. Linear periodization will cause injuries.
Good video. I respect Louie for powerlifting, but in weightlifting (my sport), he's completely lost. The Soviet sports research is designed for weightlifting, and the "special exercises" are largely exercises of moderate-high specificity. For example, a "special exercise" for the clean might be the clean from blocks. A "special exercise" for the jerk might be a jerk dip.
Louie has said MANY times that he doesn't personally like olympic lifting
I would like to point out some things.
Exercise selection of westside is based on needs of lifter, geared/raw lifters exercises differ as they differ among raw lifters and so forth.
About quads, pecs and difference between geared/raw, u say "traditional real westside system neglects those muscles", Louie has stressed the importance of individual needs. For raw lifter it can mean bigger emphasiz on pecs rather than triceps, but it could still be triceps, delts, lats etc that lifter needs to focus on. Louie says raw lifters need squat more on narrow stance etc, its once again about lifters needs.
Talking about box squats and bands, u say bands/chains overload upper part of lift and that's good for geared but not raw, then u say box squat's ain't good either for raw even though they overload down part of lift. Wheres the logic? Bands aren't just variation of strenght curve btw which u dont seem to consider at any time. Also box squats arent always done ultra wide or high, they can be done narrow and as deep as neccesary for lifter.
About intensity and volume. Westside lacks hypertrophy work in ur opinion bc they dont do 5*5*80% or so in squat? They have assistance work to take care of mass gains, if its neccesary for lifter. Also they dont have to work to 1RM in ME, they can do it for 5RM followed by more sets of five etc with lower weight for the same purposes u advocate 5*5 etc.
Thinking DE is light day isn't true either. It isn't 36 reps with 60%, u get more like 36 reps with 75-85% bc of bands and chains.
Louie stresses importance of extra work outs which aren't mentioned here. It's key to add more volume and frequence, add more technique work etc those things that u critize westside lacking.
Just some thougths. Cheers.
PS. I lift raw and don't do westside style.
Exactly, very astute. WSB is a system, and the methods can be changed to meet specific goals.
Those surprise competitions will kill ya. Loved the Windows update analogy. Perfect.
Where can I get a hard copy of the book? The site only offers an e-book.
I'd have loved for Louie to have been in on that discussion.
I certainly don't agree with everything he, (or you) does, but it would have made for a fantastic debate.
I just want Rippetoe and Simmons to have a formal debate, it would really be amazing to see them go back and forth explaining their methods and reasons (since they are so opposite)
Hard to deny that it works for a few certain people? Is this a case for this is great geared pharma enhanced athletes? I do not say either is bad just think a lot of programs work or dont work based on the person and where they are in the lifting journey.
Great critique.
hey chad, are you going to post the interview you did with matt wenning?? really interested to watch that one. 2 great strength coaches having a chat..
great point about the suit..lotsa stuff to ponder
Great video. Clears up many misconceptions about Westside. Wish I could have seen this video 10 years ago, would have saved me the time it took me to realize Westisde is not for raw lifters.
It would be extremely cool to see your thoughts on Sheiko's popular templates. I think this would be great as the blocks don't follow the general LP style that most popular programs do nowadays.
+Chadlynx that will likely be on the list.
What's that soundtrack in the beginning??
Train like you compete. If you compete suited and shirted then it behooves you to train to maximize your ability to use those tools to your advantage. If you plan to compete raw, train raw...not sure why it's a "disadvantage" of a method to train as you plan to compete.?
I love the good and the bad. Excellent video that is truly a fair criticism.
When we doin a overview of Grind supplements?
Great video you guys always put out great content. Parts of conjugate training like variation to fix weak points ("you can't fix your squat by squatting you need to do other exercises that fix the source of your weak points") makes some sense to me but when learned individuals like Chad and Mike disagree in favour of more specificity in training I find it a difficult to reconcile the two. Matt Wenning stands behind conjugate training and westside principles (i.e. more lat engagement on the bench, hip/glute dominant squats with a more vertical shin angle) and clearly has a lot of success with it. Is someone like him the exception to the rule? Do PED's dictate what training philosophy is optimal for the individual?
Make sure the remember that Westside is a conjugate system but not all conjugate systems are Westside. Matt is certainly very successful with more Westside inspired training but if you look at top raw lifting, he is in the small minority in his training style. Drug use will influence MRV and many other important factors but those can usually be addressed with adjustments to training. Read this: www.jtsstrength.com/articles/2015/08/25/snowflake-training/
+Juggernaut Training Systems Thanks so much for the prompt reply, looking forward to more of these. I purchased Scientific Principles a few months ago and thought it was great anyone reading this should get it.
Just my thoughts over Specificity...the large amount of variation seems to develop your overall physical strength to the point of being able to do more on competitive lifts. developing one movement becomes stale after a while yet becoming stronger in other lifts seem to affect all lifts because you are developing the body as a single unit to lift more regardless of the lift..I was recently listening to Brian shaw the strongman competitor who stated the he was never sure on how much he could actually lift on any one specific movement simply because he never really went all out at the gym with that lift. its only at competition that he would see his results. So not know your max deadlift or squat is not as important as knowing that you got stronger in other lifts to include your competitive lifts...just my thought and is what I find appealing about overall strength training. Not to say that I disagree with what has been said here; I agree with most points stated here but thought on overall physical development which you did address...develop specificity before moving on to another movement...agree