There are a lot of Baptist alcohol jokes. Another one is that "Jews don't recognize Jesus, Lutherans don't recognize the Pope, and Baptists don't recognize each other at the liquor store."
Much respect for the monks. . . .I'm not Catholic but I am Canadian, so I do consider myself somewhat of a beer expert. I forget who said it but " I think that the existence of beer is proof that there is a God who loves us" cheers and blessing.
I am Orthodox. Throughout my life I’ve been a part of Greek, Russian, and Antiochian Orthodox Churches. All of them observe regular fasting periods where alcohol is not permitted. These periods amount to approximately 40% of each year. I have had wine since I was around the age of 9. It was a regular item with the evening meal. To this day I have a wine collection. At any time this numbers around 200 bottles. During the fasting times I often walk past the wine collection. It is not even a temptation. Fasting for me is like a light switch. It’s either “on” or “off”. The trust I have that keeping the fast is the right thing to do is motivation enough. The faith that God and His Church know better than I do is enough. The mental comfort in not having to make a decision (to have a glass or not) is one less thing to think about during the fasts. This is the difference between teaching Moderation and practicing Moderation. Fasting is practicing mental discipline and it works on more than just drinking alcohol. (At 65 years old, my blood tests can confirm that)
I notice a very subtle yet persistent message from RTH denying that the Roman Catholic Church is a proper Christian denomination. He has, on occasion, put the RCC in the same general category as the LDS, or Mormon Church hinting at his opinion that the RCC is a cult. I know that this opinion is quite common among some Evangelical and Pentecostal denominations. Should "Journalistic Integrity" include objectivity? I would say yes. Lack of objectivity damages the integrity of the message. JFTR: I am not a Roman Catholic.
@@peterriley5466I think its fair to say Roman Catholics are not a denomination in the same way others are. Roman Catholics claim to be the only true church. I would but them in a different category. In that category I would put Roman Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant, Mormon and JW (maybe some others). Many of the denominations are subgroups of Protestant. To separate all the Protestant denominations and speak of those together before talking about Catholics, Orthodox, Mormons and JW's isn't necessarily commenting on their similarities. Personally I think Catholics and Orthodox have very little in common woth Mormons or JW's. Except maybe that they both believe in a works based salvation.
I've never understood the prohibition/abstinence position when the single most important sacrament of the religion involves wine. Its obvious that Jesus and his disciples practiced moderation. This seems to me like another case of turning tradition into doctrine.
Yeah my church just celebrated the miracle at Cana, with our priest commenting that the water being turned to wine can be understood as a prelude to the new covenant The prohibitionist position is bizarre from the Catholic perspective. At the moment I am including abstinence from alcohol in my fast but I will still consume the blood of christ. So no soju and no ouzo for me.
In Orthodox churches, alcohol is served at most functions that aren't on fast days, but people who do drink generally only have a single serving. We also don't drink alcohol without also having a meal and non-alcoholic beverages (tea, coffee, water).
Absolutely. Mine has people volunteer to host coffee hour (it’s impressive: more like hour and a half, attendance is probably 150 people at least, there’s always fruit salad and coffee, also doughnuts or bagels or homemade bread, possibly homemade Lenten soup or an entire lunch, possibly made from scratch, possibly Ethiopian, made from rare spices that can’t even grow in America), and once someone brought a box of wine to the coffee hour. I had a cup! 🙂👍 The picnic always has beer and wine, and a huge amount of food, including homemade desserts. For Pascha (a.k.a. Easter), the catechumens are baptized, then there is a nighttime service that ends at 1 AM, then there’s a party in the church hall until 3 or 4 AM. Every family brings a basket of food-it’s the end of the fast, from meat INCLUDING fish, AND eggs, AND dairy products, AND some of the time from alcohol-and drinks may be passed around to neighboring tables. We don’t get drunk, we drink a little, but we LOVE to party. We have a tough rule for fasting, then make up by feasting, also ethnic music and ethnic dancing. Has everyone seen Protestant heaven vs. Catholic heaven from the Simpsons? Orthodox heaven is the most extreme heaven. 😆
@@user-nw7fk1dj2mwe do the same. Most after mass functions have wine or champagne. Sometimes there is brandy, but that is much less and if there is leftovers from the catering centre the church operates.
The ''wine'' mentioned in the Bible was alcohol-containing WINE... NOT grape juice. Noah did not get drunk on grape juice. No wedding in Jewish tradition has EVER featured 'grape juice'. Jesus did not turn water into grape juice. Jesus did not prophesy that He would not drink of ''grape juice'' again until He came into His kingdom. It was WINE!!
Thank you! Preach it louder for the people in the back! No one was serving Welch's grape juice from the 1800s at a Jewish wedding in the Bible. And, frankly, none of the Pharisee's slander of our Lord being a 'drunkard' makes sense if our Lord was part of a Jewish society that only drank 'grape juice'.
Not true. Jesus was Jewish. It was strictly forbidden to have leaven anywhere in the House during Passover. Fermentation process uses yeast to make wine. The Romans at that time used dried grapes and concentrated grape juice to make grape juice all year round without fermentation.
It's almost scientificly impossible for it to have not been alcoholic. Juice from grapes naturally ferments from the yeast, and with refrigeration and preservatives it will go bad if not turned alcoholic. So unless they were drinking freshly pressed juice all the time, it was definitely alcoholic
Continuing Anglican here. Old Anglican joke: Wherever four of us are gathered together, there’s a fifth. Old Anglican gag: Jews don’t recognize Jesus as the Messiah. We, the East, and the Prots don’t recognize the Pope as head of the Church. Baptists … pretend not to recognize each other at the liquor store.
@@neilcameron7705 Reading proverbs 20:1, I doubt the Bible actually recommends you to drink, but I guess if you are sure it won't lead you astray you can
As with all things @@Jfernandez02 scripture needs to interpret scripture. To find harmony on this issue, all scriptural references to alcohol must be collated together. From Psalm 104 we see that God has given wine to us as a gift, but proverbs 20.1 shows that it is a gift that we should be careful in using because its misuse leads to sin. An analagous issue would be sex. God created sex as a blessing; you don't have to have sex if you don't want to; but if you do have sex, it should be within the bounds of a monogamous heterosexual marriage.
@@neilcameron7705 yeah I see what you mean. I personally still take the route of abstinence in matters like this because I prefer to avoid being in any temptation at all, and I know I myself am weak to it. But different people have different weaknesses and different temptations
Orthodox typically take the opinion of drunkenness is a sin, but alcohol consulting an of itself is not sinful, as long as it isn’t coming between you and God. My priest has even given me a 6 pack for doing some electrical work at his house. He also told me the following joke: “Do you know the difference between an Orthodox Priest and a baptist minister? The Priest will say “Hi” when you see him at the liquor store.”
When I was still 20 or so years old and an inquirer and hadn’t yet acquired a taste for alcohol, I told my priest about my displeasure for alcohol as he received a free bottle of whiskey on Pascha. He joked and said “oh, you don’t like alcohol? Maybe the nondenominational church is right for you.” I got a laugh out of that one, but in a way he’s kind of right. A few months later I ended up finally acquiring that taste and can enjoy beer in moderation without it causing problems for me.
There is literally not a single verse in the New Testament that says to go to God directly and ask Him to forgive your sins. Not that I don’t think you can, but seriously dude. The only thing passages say is that God will forgive us our sins, but the Bible doesn’t mention going directly to God. The Bible says mention men being able to forgive sins multiple times, however: John 20:22-23 And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive anyone’s sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.” Jesus literally gives the Apostles Authority to forgive sins. Catholics believe that the successors of the Apostles, the Bishops, Priests, etc, carry on this Authority. I know Protestants don’t believe in Apostolic Succession, but it makes little sense for Jesus to give this Authority to the Apostles, for such a short period of time, for what seems like no reason, in the Protestant viewpoint. This is also the first time God has Breathed on man in the Scriptures since Adam, so it kind of weird that this is so important, for what would be to a Protestant a temporary and trivial thing. James 5:14-16 Is anyone among you sick? Let them call the elders of the church to pray over them and anoint them with oil in the name of the Lord. And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise them up. If they have sinned, they will be forgiven. Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person is powerful and effective. Man, there’s a reason why Martin Luther did not like the Book of James. In context, this is talking about the “Elders” of the Church, or Greek word Presbyter, which in English, is Priest. And it says to Confess your sins to “one another” , in this context. It also mentions Anointing of the Sick as well if you catch that. Now, the Bible actually mentions the Apostles Appointing “Elders” as their successors. The Bible record them “Laying Hands” on people to do this. The Apostolic Fathers, men who knew the Apostles, or knew a man who knew the Apostles. wrote in their writings that Christ had Founded a Universal (Catholic) Church, that had Bishops, Priests, and Deacons, that you must Obey like God, Christ, and the College of the Apostles. They say that Bishops, etc, had been prophesied long beforehand, and that the Apostles Appointed them to be the leaders of future believers. And to not schism from the Church, or contradict Tradition. We see the early Roman Church telling other Churches to Obey it (Peter says He’s in Babylon, or Rome, and his Tomb is located there). We see other men saying they desire what Rome says to remain in force, and that Rome holds the Presidency. And we see early first century writings telling us to “Confess your sins in Church.” For context, St John the Apostle, Died around 100 AD. Some of these writers are St Ignatius of Antioch (AD 110, knew John the Apostle), Clement of Rome (Third Bishop of Rome, knew the Apostles), the Didache, the Epistle of Barnabas, and Ireneaus in Against Heresies. Besides this, there’s other verses: Matthew 9:6 But I want you to know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins.” So he said to the paralyzed man, “Get up, take your mat and go home.” Then the man got up and went home. When the crowd saw this, they were filled with awe; and they praised God, who had given such authority to men. Now, obviously Christ has Authority to forgive sin, because He’s God, but this is foreshadowing Confession. The “Son of Man”, and men (plural) have been given this authority. Now, obviously I want to point out that it is God Who forgives the sin, the Priest acts as an Ambassador for Christ, and says “You are forgiven”, and the sin is forgiven. I also wanted to point out that this is actually a really good system, this way you actually know you are forgiven, instead of wondering if you were truly sorry, and actually forgiven, it make amends with not just God, but the Church, which your relationship with is also strained by sin, etc.
I'm an SDA and have never drank in my life. Considering how I handle addictive drinks like coffees and sodas this religious abstinence has likely saved my life.
It's an old joke, "Jews don't recognize Jesus as the messiah, Protestants don't recognize the pope as the head of the church, and Baptists don't recognize each other at the liquor store."
Always take at least two Baptists fishing. If you take only one Baptist with you fishing, then he will drink all of your beer. If you take at least two Baptists with you fishing, you have all the beer to yourself!
And here I am, a highly religious Orthodox-Catholic Christian, having attended Mass last night, watching this video on a Sunday morning while enjoying my third double screwdriver.
@@jimbobjones5972 I think all Christians should be okay with moderate alcohol consumption, as this is the biblical position. I say this even though I personally don’t drink anymore. I just have no desire to, not that I see it as inherently sinful in moderation. There are still people that think wine means grape juice though so that’s a problem.
"When we drink beer, we go to sleep. When we sleep, we commit no sin. When we commit no sin, we go to heaven. So let us drink beer and go to heaven." --Martin Luther
Regarding the wine at Canada John 2:9, 10 9 When the master of the feast tasted the water now become wine, and did not know where it came from (though the servants who had drawn the water knew), the master of the feast called the bridegroom 10 and said to him, “Everyone serves the good wine first, and when people have drunk freely, then the poor wine. But you have kept the good wine until now.” The master of the feast had expected that the "good wine" would have been served first, and when the "reserve" wine was served the attendees would have been perhaps a bit tipsy and wouldn't notice the inferior wine. Jesus turned plain water into the tastiest, most delectable wine that the master had ever drank. It wasn't "Welch's Grape Juice".
From a Jehovah's Witness: thank you for being fair and respectful of views you disagree with. You're correct that we don't have any objection to alcohol within secular legal limitations, and as long as one is not harming themselves or other people (for example getting drunk to the point of falling to other sins). Although, we're strongly opposed to Cigarettes at all. It's not an unforgivable sin, by any means, but not something consistent with being a member in good standing. Although, we would fall short of an "abolishionist" classification only in that we don't meddle in politics. We'd be happy if tobacco were completely outlawed, but that's for other people to decide for themselves.
I remember before I converted, in high school, I actually went to church and Sunday school with a friend a few times... Church of Christ, they had the "Wine in the bible was actually grape juice" theory. These days I'm astounded that churches could take this position, it's pretty ridiculous... I mean, they have the freedom to teach what they want, but it's just not factually tenable.
@jamesparson I mean... many things that people find unbelievable in the Bible are either a) So far out of historical memory that it's impossible to verify and/or fantastic, or b) supernatural/miraculous in nature. That's what you're referring to, right? The grape juice/wine thing is in neither of those categories. You probably don't know why since you're obviously not too quick on the uptake, but I'll explain it for you. First of all, one of the biggest reasons to make wine, is to extend the life of the grape. Grape juice, and grapes, spoil very quickly, especially in warm climates. Using fermentation, the wine is prevented from spoilage and can thus be stored for extended periods of time. Secondly, the entire symbolism of wine being used sacramentally is that it has been "purified"... the leaven has been removed, and the alcohol in the wine kills anything that is impure/harmful (in the same way that Christ's blood washes away OUR "leaven": sin.) So if ya knew anything about horticulture, history, OR the reason many things are the way they are in the Bible, you'd have understood why I said it is not factually tenable: there is no possible way Jesus turned water into "grape juice", or used "grape juice" during the last supper. Instead you showed your ignorance by scoffing at things at a very surface level, without taking a minute to rub your two brain cells together and think about it. Have a nice Sunday! 👍
@@mercster I 100% agree with what you’re saying, but not your insulting attitude. Even though you’re factually correct, and I also explain this to people; you’re not debating with love my friend. Be careful of this.
My abstinent mother said if you never drink you'll never have to wonder if you have a drinking problem. I wish more of my alcoholic relatives had the same position. I've lost several close family members to it.
@@ihiohoh2708 The Bible doesn't say lots of things, it doesn't tell you not to smoke tobacco, it doesn't tell you that everyone should get to vote for our government, etc. I believe in the Living God, the Living Christ, they didn't stop living 2000 years ago.
@@anthonymccarthy4164sure but tobacco usage isn't really linked to deadly addiction only cigarettes/synthetics do that. In ancient to the early industrial period alcoholism was very rare and was an effect of mental illness. It was with industrial distillation and cultures with hard liquor as their prefered drink, like protestant countries, that made intoxication endemic. Any Catholic country that prefers hard liquor like Ireland and Mexico have high rates while Italians and France do not because wine isn't habit forming and slow to activate. As for democracy, having a nation run by banks that hate you isn't the worst government but it certainly has no special advantages with any other system.
@@charlesramirez587 If there is a correlation, you still have to ask what causes what. It seems more likely to me that alcoholism causes people to gravitate towards more concentrated drinks than the other way around. Also, it's not just alcoholism that is sinful, all forms of "binge drinking" are sinful, whether you are addicted or not.
Your description of AG checks out. I was raised AG (currently Greek Orthodox). My parents didn’t agree with everything the denomination taught, to wit: that drinking and dancing are sins. Whatever the National Assembly says on their website, the practical effect (at least where we lived) is pastors teach any consumption of alcohol is a sin. When questioned about it, though, they’ll use such explanations as are found in the document you cited. Despite my parents’ beliefs, they never drank alcohol while my sister and I were under drinking age. To this day, we only drink very occasionally and very lightly. When I was a teenager, I remember asking my pastor about the wedding in Cana. He said the wine was grape juice, because there was no “time for the grapes to ferment.” I found this argument specious, especially since this same pastor insisted God created the world in 6 literal days (something I also did not believe at this point, though I still saw the inherent contradiction). As I look at all these statements, especially the one insisting Jesus would never “tempt” people with drunkenness, it makes me wonder whether some of the abstinent and prohibitory positions stem from imposing a modern understanding of drunkenness upon an ancient world.
I also grew up in the Assemblies of God. It’s a very fine-line between “voluntary abstinence” from alcohol and “prohibition”. The main difference being the degree of consequences that church members face if found to be drinking. AG churches should generally fall under abstinence because while they teach very strongly against drinking alcohol, there aren’t many strong consequences for a church member who does drink. I’m currently United Methodist by the way, and the UMC is only barely in the “abstinence” camp. In practice, it’s moderate drinking but with a VERY strong emphasis on avoiding drunkenness. Even Methodist clergy don’t generally face consequences from moderate drinking.
When I hear the statement on "Jesus wouldn't tempt them with drunkenness", what I think is the members of those churches do not understand that responsible moderate drinking is even possible. Maybe they come from a past of struggling alcoholics or have family members that struggled with it or they've just always lived in a tradition that believes alcohol is evil. I'm Catholic. When my family gets together, we drink wine. Collectively we can finish a lot of bottles, but none of us get drunk because we aren't guzzling it down. Responsible adults can go to a wedding and drink throughout the reception and not get drunk.
It's like the difference between Catholics, Calvinists, and Baptists. -Catholics don't recognize Calvinists -Calvinists don't recognize Catholics -Baptists don't recognize each other at the liquor store
There's a place in Orlando called Castle Church Brewing. It's a brewery/bar, but it's also a church affiliated with (I think) the ELCA. You can have a pint in the middle of the sermon. I doubt I will ever see something so quintessentially Lutheran again.
When i grew up in the Free Will Baptist church we werent even supposed to go to a business that sold alcohol. We had to go to a special gas station just to get gas. My grandfather worked to get the strict stance lessened.
Such a strict observance of denominational doctrine is a personal problem more than anything. Good on your grandfather for trying to introduce sanity into your congregation, but if your parents actually followed that, that was their business. Personally, that sounds a little restrictive because so few places that sell food do so without alcohol. You would basically have to always eat fast food, and that doesn't sound healthy.
@@CMVBrielman Not to mention there isn't a single Bible verse calling for 100% abstinence from alcohol. If one believes that, then I hope they don't consume bread, pickles, sauerkraut, or even fruit juice itself. I'll state right now I don't personally drink. However, back in these times, as well as today, people used fermentation as a way to prolong the use of perishable items. Fermentation increases alcohol content. This increased the lifespan of people because not only was water scarce geographically, but it wasn't exactly safe to drink when you did find it. So even children drank wine. This continued throughout human history for a long time.
@@CMVBrielman Also, the Greek word _oinos_ is translated as wine, which was the same word in Greek used for specifically alcoholic wine. That same word appears in Ephesians 5:18 "And be not drunk with wine..." That is the same Greek word found in Scripture of Jesus turning water into wine. God bless.
Just a note to the host thanking this channel and you for the work and the content that work produces. So much quality and substance. Positively encyclopedic.
Even if we grant the New Testament “οἶνος” can mean both alcoholic and nonalcoholic wine - I don’t know enough to determine - the interpretation that the “οἶνος” at Cana was nonalcoholic makes no sense to me. 🤔 Having tasted Jesus’s wine, the MC said: “Everyone serves good wine (‘οἶνον’) first, and then when people have drunk freely (‘μεθυσθῶσιν’), an inferior one; but you have kept the good wine (‘οἶνον’) until now” (John 2:10). If the wedding wine at Cana was alcohol-free, how would “drinking it freely” (μεθύσκω, ‘to make drunk, to get drunk, to inebriate, to intoxicate’) hinder the guests’ ability to perceive a potential poorer quality of later servings?
@@sirwondernut2815 : Could you flesh out your argument a little more? I don’t think Jesus condones drunkenness. Do you think in my comment I’ve misrepresented Jesus’s actions, words or opinions? If yes, then where? And how from that misrepresentation would it follow that He promotes drunkenness?
In a world without refrigeration or canning technology, fermentation is the only way for juice to keep for long periods of time. It would have been a waste of farm land to grow grapes meant only for juice, which would need to be drank within a few days of harvest. Fermentation is God's gift to a (literally) decaying world.
Thank you, Joshua for all the exhaustive research you do for #ReadyToHarvest videos! 🙏 It's a shame that all these videos haven't reached more views, like some more biased Christian TH-cam channels. Anyway, speaking from the POV of the "Other" group, growing up SDA , #temperance was taught to almost Prohibition Era levels, whereas I don't hear about it as much, these days. I imagine that it may be similar to our LDS friends. Similarly, there are probably subsets in both faith communities who do drink moderately and/or socially. For those familiar with the #BlueZones study, #Adventists are portrayed as teetotalers, which many are, but it would be interesting to compare and contrast the diet and drinking habits of both the SDA and LDS communities. Both well-known for their Prohibition stances. 👍
I didn't see any explicit Bible verses demanding Prohibition or Abstinence. Pretty much any denomination pushing those 2 positions aren't doing it on Biblical grounds. Moderation is clearly the Bible's position. By the way, I don't drink personally. I have nothing against it, and used to drink a bit, but I've lost the taste for it. I do object to some religions pushing prohibition on religious grounds, since I believe there is no Christian basis for that position.
I agree with this. I don't like to drink myself. Alcohol is a poison to my taste but I do think that it is a place in some areas and moderation is key. Since all things can be bad if abused; alcohol, sex, etc. Our communion has actual wine.
True, the Bible doesn’t state directly, but there is the verses and references like proverbs 20:1, nazarites and the priests relationship with drink and that God’s chosen people is a nation of Priests, I would say that it is can be interpreted as both abstinence and prohibition views are valid.
@@dancahill9585 We don’t know if what type of wine it was, because it was not specified if it was new wine or old wine, so each person can speculate which type of wine it was, it still a miracle either way.
I'm not aware of anyone who endorses binge drinking, also as a former binge drinker, the threshold set to acquire the designation seems somewhat vague. Four drinks in one setting, can be four drinks in less than an hour, or four drinks over several hours.
Yeah I've never understood the way binge drinking is categorized. It lumps together college students taking shots and chugging with people drinking 6 beers over the course of an afternoon watching football.
4:09 Yas!!! That's what I've been wanting you to do. Talk about some of these polls in your videos. Have a topic that is related, and discuss how people voted. Maybe even have a follow-up video where you discuss the denomination who came up with that statement. Link the two together.
Thank you for your hard work, this was a pleasure to watch and very informative. Just a couple thoughts on my own denomination. While I recognize that the statement by the RPCNA is on the stronger side (I assume you’re referring to Testimony 26.6, but I apologize, I’m new to the website and struggling to find the references), and that the RPCNA went through a period of total prohibition, as a longtime member I don’t think it would be fully appropriate to put them in the abstinence category rather than moderation. I’ve always taken the statement as strong encouragement that abstinence is wholly acceptable and often appropriate but by no means a requirement. The denomination publicly repented for taking a stance they believe went beyond the requirements of scripture and wrongly bound consciences. They initially stopped requiring abstinence by members, and then in the 80s I believe ceased to require church officers to abstain. All of that said, grape juice is used in communion more often than average in a Reformed denomination and it is sometimes a divisive issue. But it’s also a tradition among many of the ministers to visit a family owned bar and have dinner and **moderately** enjoy some beverages together after the conclusion of the annual synod.
I like how you disclaimered your use of the term "evangelical." In modern usage it's not particularly useful because it gets used sometimes as a catchall term for "theologically conservative protestant" but many such groups do not refer to ourselves as Evangelical, and it means rather more than just "theologically conservative protestant" to those that actually claim the term.
Evangelical in the modern Parlance refers to mostly Denominations that were founded in the mid 20th Century. The Lutheran Pietists were the forebears to these groups and that's where that label comes from.
@@acekoala457 Most of the Evangelical groups (that actually claim the name, as opposed to having it slapped on them by people like Pew) I'm familiar with can trace back to Wesleyan/Holiness groups rather than Pietist, and the NAE's published list of member denominations would seem to match that, with the two biggest groups being Holiness and Pentacostals, and Wesleyan/Holiness/Pentacostals/Charismatics making up just over half of the NAE's member denominations (as compared to groups with Pietist heritage, who were only 15%). There's an argument for Pietist influence in both historical and modern usage of the term for sure (especially if limited to the dictionary definitions found in Webster), but I don't think it would be correct to say that they're the forebears of the modern Evangelical movement, and thus the source of the modern meaning of the term, at least when it's being used to mean something other than "Theologically Conservative Protestant".
Btw if you choose to not follow the words of wisdom (LDS) you cannot be baptised and be a full member of the church but are free to continue to come to services and take part in events
@@LatterUni25 I have no idea who hurt you so bad but I'm sorry you're unhappy and I pray you come to Jesus to find healing and forgiveness. Blessings 🙏
Something to keep in mind regarding some Baptist denominations is that while they may not actually see disciplined consumption as being prohibited by scripture, they do recognize that it is sinful to do something that would cause a brother or sister to stumble. As such, if they do drink, it will usually be privately or in small groups who are not tempted to excess or offended.
The soundest advice I ever received was from my doctor: "Treat alcohol as food, take it, if you wish, with food at some meals and not otherwise." (In other words, alcohol is not a recreational drug.) We enjoy an appropriate wine with most evening meals.
I loved the IPHC's explicitly circular reasonging. 'wine is bad' therefore the Cana miracle involves grape juice. Cana is grape juice, therefore wine is bad. Funny how wine was perfectly acceptable in contemporary Jewish culture, universally accepted in the early Church, and no other scholarly community suggests that οινος means anything other than fermented wine.
It's also worth noting that many historical Temperance Pledges explicitly stated two exceptions: (1) the use of alcoholic wine in the Lord's Supper; and (2) alcohol prescribed by a physician as medical treatment. Sometimes these exceptions were taught by the Christian temperance organization, but not mentioned in the pledge.
Have a drink. Have two. Have a third... What's gonna happen? God will send you to hell? ...Forever?...and ever?... For having a few drinks? Hmmmm, That does not sound like a god i would like to know at all. Cheers! 🍾🥂🍷🍸🍹🍺🍻🥃 ☕☕☕
@@guylarcher6005 It is interesting to see that people almost become offended when you say you don't drink. Honestly, that's part of the fun of being teetotal - watching people become dumbfounded and angry when I tell them that I have made a personal choice to live without alcohol, because I believe it is the best choice for me.
I work at a Pentecostal institution of higher education, and we used to have a statement in our staff handbook on expected behavior (that we had to sign) saying that we would not drink alcohol except when taking Communion. But I knew from multiple VPs that the working policy was more of a "don't ask, don't tell" situation. The prohibition on alcohol was quietly taken out of the staff handbook last year.
Ask yourself, "How do my actions glorify God?" If "Wine is a mocker and beer a brawler" (Prov. 20:1), then how does consumption of it glorify God? It can't.
@@iphidamasfilms1245 Jesus had to get where the people were. The people who needed saving. "Friend of sinners", yes. And perhaps you missed the part about wine then being way different from wine now. You probably wouldn't want to drink the potentially disease-ridden water either. I highly doubt Jesus was a "social drinker" and definitely not a binge drinker. And perhaps even his divinity gave him an immunity to the effects of wine.
Most Eastern Churches have a national ale. The exception is the Coptic Church which officially teaches prohibition but that's only because of the Islamic government of Egypt. History shows the Copts used to drink wine as there's a reference to it in a debate between a bishop and a Muslim.
At the grocery store I bought a $5 scratch ticket. 2 suited men I didn't know came over to me and told me for buying that ticket they were having me kicked out of church. What church I asked. The JW. Ive never been a member of the JW.
This story is a load of bull. No JW would approach you to say that if they didn't know you. They wouldn't say that if they _did_ know you but they might counsel you in a kind manner. No JW would dream of approaching a stranger in such an aggressive manner. You're either full of it or they weren't JWs. Another option is that it's a story you've heard in some format, probably about another group, and decided to apply it to JWs. Unfortunately for you, you seem to know little about JWs and for some reason you have an axe to grind. One added piece of info for you: a JW would _never_ call it a church. Consider yourself called out!
It is notable that "American native" churches are much stricter on alcohol than churches who's centered more outside America like, Catholic, Orthodox and Lutheran churches.
Probably the impact of the white man using whiskey as trade resulting in alcoholism. I'm sure it's probably as much about avoiding alcoholism as it is a religious view.
@@squiddwizzard8850 I don't know about that. (Orthodox) Greeks and Turks aren't typically seen as the worlds most sober. Koza Matstro and Agathonas Iakovidis aren't singing "Alcohol is bad", you know. And Catholic Irish literary invented Whiskey.
Me and my family are church of God (Pentecostal) and my mom and dad are against drinking at all while I lean more towards it’s ok to drink so long as you abstain from overconsumption and drunkenness, everything can be used for the good it’s just mankind has taken these things and chose to abuse it
My only reason why I probably won’t ever touch it is because of my family history with alcohol abuse and I don’t want to fall into the same hole they did
We attended a CEC church for a time. The "transubstantiation" of the wine required the priest to drink any left overs. In this very tiny congregation the chalice was always filled. The priest was always sloshed at noon on Sundays. Curiously, he wasn't so intent on eating all the wafers.
In the Catholic Church, the precious blood must be consumed by the priest, left over "wafers" are kept in the tabernacle for the sick. Mustum or unpasteurized grape juice is allowed under certain circumstances.
It is much easier to reserve the bread. Nevertheless, given the small number of communications,he probably should not have filled the chalice to the brim. I've been attending a CEC parish for a few weeks now. The priest there, formerly Roman Catholic, only consecrates a small amount of wine and only distributes communion to the congregation under the species of bread.
The priest should prepare only enough wine to satisfy the requirement of consuming the sacrifice, plus the anticipated number of sips from the congregation, if any.
The "no biblical definition of moderation" argument around 16:00 is amusing, because I assume AG churches advocate moderation in eating, yet not abstinence of food. No clear-cut definition means we need wisdom and the Holy Spirit's guidance on a topic, not that we must avoid said thing altogether.
Was an age range included in the study? In my personal experience as a consumer of alcohol for nearly forty years, and working as a bartender for twelve years when I was younger, binge drinking tends to be a younger persons endeavor.
I'd say that binge drinking needs an additional component to its definition--it needs to be within a certain period. Because your blood alcohol level doesn't go up as high the more you space things out.
Mike Winger has a fantastic, in-depth, and very balanced study entitled "What the Bible Says about Alcohol" published on TH-cam that I would recommend to anyone, regardless of your current position on the subject. It was definitely an eye-opener for me as many of the passages had never been preached on at any of the churches I grew up in - mostly because God apparently doesn't follow the party line of the denomination. It is interesting that for any Protestant denomination that traces its roots to the Reformation and Sola Scriptura, on this subject, it appears Church Tradition is indeed often given more weight than Scripture. Mike is very clear in his presentation that he isn't trying to change anyone's personal convictions, but only to review the full counsel of Scripture on the topic, and that regardless of your ultimate conclusion, the essential criteria is the Christian's commitment to the Lordship of Jesus Christ in this area of their life.
Religious Society of Friends/Quakers were involved in the Prohibition movement. But now it varies between abstinence and moderation depending on the individuals. But many or at least some still abstain.
The reason we were involved in temperance is because at the time there were issues of family abandonment and abuse. People always forget about that when Prohibition is mentioned. It wasn't about prudishness. Allegedly George Fox himself, our founder enjoyed a pint in a brewery and was invited to a drinking contest. He declined, seeing it as foolishness. Which, even that isn't necessarily moderation and could easily be seen a declination of contests.
Not a Baptist, but I would only be "crying" if I had to consume alcohol, which tastes like vomit to me. That said, I have no theological objection to others consuming it in a responsible and moderate way, just don't expect me to have any!
In Bulgaria only Adventist never use alcohol. I never encounter another group that follows the health principles that seriously! They actively hold health seminars across the country against drinking...
So all denominations ignore Proverbs 31:6-7 which seems to recommend drunkenness in certain cases: "Give strong drink to one who is perishing, and wine to the bitter in soul. Let him drink and forget his poverty, and remember his misery no more." Also, in John 2 at the wedding in Cana the text seems to say the guests were already drunk when Jesus gave them more wine: John 2:10 "and said: everyone serves the fine wine first, and then the cheap wine after the guests are drunk. But you have saved the fine wine until now!” The translations which say "have drunk freely" there are wrong, the word there means "are drunk". The same Greek word is used in noun form in Matthew 24:49 for 'drunkards', and similarly in Acts 2:15 when it's said "they are not drunk".
@@Mic1904 And yet in your original comment you claimed that the people at the wedding were drunk. And Jesus gave them even more to drink, encouraging them to overindulge in alcohol even more. What loving God would lay out that drunkenness is a sin then send HIs Son, Jesus, to make wine for a bunch of drunkards?
I can boil down the differences between all denominations to one simple thing. Every single one of them has a small set of scriptures that get pulled out of context, spin into a doctrine, and then the rest of scripture must be subjugated to it. This is how a false teacher creates something different through which they can attract others to himself. This difference usually satisfies some itch people have so they will hold on to it for deer life.
Now I am interested what all other denominations have to say about the alcoholic content of wine that Jesus made. Is it denominations specific or all denomination agree that Jesus wine was non-alcoholic. :P
Essentially all churches that baptize babies will tell you it was alcoholic wine, and even some that don't will admit this. This is also the biblical position, especially when you examine the Greek text. The word _oinos_ means alcoholic wine. This appears in those verses.
Orthodox Christians believe it was just what the New Testament calls it; "oinos" is Greek for wine, not grape juice. Like most Protestant fallacies, this one did not exist until the Protestant schism.
Hilarious that people look at writings that tell you that a person magically altered the chemical structure of a substance, introducing atoms that didn't previously exist and arranged them exactly in the right way to include all the lovely notes of freshly cut grass or whatever but argue over whether the oxygen and hydrogen atoms were in the correct order to get you a little tipsy
When I was a child, in the 'fifties, our Episcopal church held a fundraising cocktail party at the church, though not inside the church itself. It was successful in terms of raising money. My Methodist relatives did not approve. The minister was quietly kicked out years later after reports of his attempts to seduce teenage young men of the congregation.
I’d be curious if the “abstinence/ prohibition” church culture is unique to America. In my experience European and non-western churches overwhelmingly hold the moderation position. I wonder if water quality in un/ under developed countries is a factor in a churches position on alcohol use.
Born, raised, and still Church of Christ kid here… I’m enjoying a pour of Elijah Craig( ironical of you know the legend behind the guy) Barrel Proof watching this and thought, “Surely, I’m not the only one.” Haha.
Really would have liked to see stats on alcohol consumption for groups that teach moderation, abstinence, and prohibition respectively. Particularly the last one, it would be interesting to see how many Latter-day Saints for example actually keep their church’s provision to not drink.
@TheGrendelbane IPA is the official name we use today. The idea of using hops to make beer dates back to a nun way before Luther who was but merely experimenting. Confirmed hops can be used, but never actually invested in the experiment. Luther was the one who really popularized the use of hops when hops, a mere weed, was not taxed by the empire but a rampant weed in Germany. So Luther encouraged the use of hops and it became a hit. England especially loved it and coined the term IPA to describe the beverage. Look up "Luther hops taxes"
@@christopherboyd9855 I find several mentions of hops being used centuries before Martin Luther. I will continue to attribute the development of IPA to the Brits, but Martin Luther deserves some credit for popularizing the use of hops, but not for developing its use in brewing.
Hmm. I was expecting the three groups to include one that allowed you to consume small amounts of alcohol that does not affect how you feel. To me, a lot of the difference in the last group is what is considered drunkenness. Does it include being "tipsy"? What about before that, where you relax but have no balance issues? And what about if you drink enough to help you sleep, but don't stay up and do "drunken" things? Is it okay as a painkiller? Your actual second group surprises me, because most Christians I know would say that, if it's not clearly in the Bible, then it must inherently be up to the individual. That's what I would have expected the official position to be, even if some individuals hold the "abstinence position," as I do for myself.
I am a former Southern Baptist, now a prospective member in the Salvation Army, and my view on alcohol has changed. I formerly held a moderation viewpoint, as did most of those that I attended church with. I now, and not just because of Salvation Army teaching, hold to the abstinence position. I gain nothing by consuming alcohol, and I lose no joy by not consuming it either. I don't believe the consumption of alcohol to be sinful, but I do not see it as beneficial for me in any way.
@jasontstein given his stomach ailment and medical knowledge at the time, probably so. However, I stand by my statement for me alcohol has no benefit. Far be it from me, though, to judge anyone for choosing to imbibe.
I am in much the same position. I have no theological objections to the moderate consumption of alcohol, but I don't consume it myself, as it tastes like vomit to me...
I attend an AG church, and I definitely hold the “moderation” viewpoint. My old AG pastor used to agree with abstinence, but I think he’s now in the moderation camp.
I'm just assuming that Mainline Lutherans and Northern Baptists were too busy going to the liquor store to come up with formal positions on alcohol consumption lol
When our family moved to North Carolina from Chicago in the 1970's, lots of people asked us where we would go to church. I would reply that we were Catholic, and everyone would say, "Oh, you'll go to St. XXX." It was the only Catholic church in town. The first time I met our neighbors across the street, she asked the same question, but when I replied we were Catholic, she said, "Oh good! You drink." I cracked up. While we lived there, when either her mother or her husband 's mother visited, all their liquor came to our house for the duration.
I attend the Coptic Church, i think our position is abstinence. Egypt doesn't have much of a drinking culture. St Paul reccomended Timothy to drink some wine for his stomach, it isn't sin if used for certain purposes.
Funny enough, prohibitions against alcohol finally sent me to the catholic church. I was a methodist growing up but the UMC went hard woke and i left after the kids started singing lady gaga songs. I went to a “free methodist” church after that. And the pastor straight out said anyone who even sips alcohol is going to hell. I said what about jesus and the apostles drinking wine and christ saying DO THIS in remembrance of me? He said its good you know your scripture but Jesus wouldnt have used wine if they had another option. I just looked at him in silence. I only went back there once and it was almost as upsetting of an experience. I feel totally at home in the Catholic church. Im not an alcoholic, i havent had a drink in six months outside the eucharist but if I decide to have a glass of wine with dinner, i dont want my pastor walking in and condemning me. I would want to offer him a glass and welcome him!
Catholicism is not a denomination. Denominations are subdivisions of protestantism; the Church has existed for centuries before protestantism was invented. Same applies to Orthodoxy.
I'm reminded of a joke: "If you're going to invite a Baptist to go fishing, invite two. Because if you only invite one he'll drink all your beer."
lol
Us LDS have the same joke about us😂
Not a joke, truth...
Anybody remember the joke about the Baptist and Methodist?
There are a lot of Baptist alcohol jokes. Another one is that "Jews don't recognize Jesus, Lutherans don't recognize the Pope, and Baptists don't recognize each other at the liquor store."
Evangelicals: Alcohol is sin.
Catholic monks: Let's produce our own beer/wine/liqueur.
Much respect for the monks. . . .I'm not Catholic but I am Canadian, so I do consider myself somewhat of a beer expert. I forget who said it but " I think that the existence of beer is proof that there is a God who loves us" cheers and blessing.
@@pathless951fuck beer dude. If you’re gonna get me drunk at least be strong or taste good
@@haha-lj5sq chill out.
@@haha-lj5sq It's not about getting drunk. It's about having something to wash down the food with.
Evangelicals are low church, barely christian. Drunkness is a sin but a bit of alcohol is ok since Eastern Orthodoxy is the truth
I am Orthodox. Throughout my life I’ve been a part of Greek, Russian, and Antiochian Orthodox Churches. All of them observe regular fasting periods where alcohol is not permitted. These periods amount to approximately 40% of each year. I have had wine since I was around the age of 9. It was a regular item with the evening meal. To this day I have a wine collection. At any time this numbers around 200 bottles. During the fasting times I often walk past the wine collection. It is not even a temptation. Fasting for me is like a light switch. It’s either “on” or “off”. The trust I have that keeping the fast is the right thing to do is motivation enough. The faith that God and His Church know better than I do is enough. The mental comfort in not having to make a decision (to have a glass or not) is one less thing to think about during the fasts. This is the difference between teaching Moderation and practicing Moderation. Fasting is practicing mental discipline and it works on more than just drinking alcohol. (At 65 years old, my blood tests can confirm that)
Ready To Harvest has the most journalistic integrity of any content creator on any platform I am aware of.
fr
I notice a very subtle yet persistent message from RTH denying that the Roman Catholic Church is a proper Christian denomination. He has, on occasion, put the RCC in the same general category as the LDS, or Mormon Church hinting at his opinion that the RCC is a cult. I know that this opinion is quite common among some Evangelical and Pentecostal denominations. Should "Journalistic Integrity" include objectivity? I would say yes. Lack of objectivity damages the integrity of the message. JFTR: I am not a Roman Catholic.
Another informative TH-cam channel on denominations is Matt Whitman
@@peterriley5466I think its fair to say Roman Catholics are not a denomination in the same way others are. Roman Catholics claim to be the only true church. I would but them in a different category. In that category I would put Roman Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant, Mormon and JW (maybe some others). Many of the denominations are subgroups of Protestant. To separate all the Protestant denominations and speak of those together before talking about Catholics, Orthodox, Mormons and JW's isn't necessarily commenting on their similarities. Personally I think Catholics and Orthodox have very little in common woth Mormons or JW's. Except maybe that they both believe in a works based salvation.
I've never understood the prohibition/abstinence position when the single most important sacrament of the religion involves wine. Its obvious that Jesus and his disciples practiced moderation. This seems to me like another case of turning tradition into doctrine.
You will notice this exists only in churches that see sacraments as mere symbols.
And the first miracle Christ performed was to help people get drunk at a wedding.
Yeah my church just celebrated the miracle at Cana, with our priest commenting that the water being turned to wine can be understood as a prelude to the new covenant
The prohibitionist position is bizarre from the Catholic perspective.
At the moment I am including abstinence from alcohol in my fast but I will still consume the blood of christ. So no soju and no ouzo for me.
@@BastiatCI wouldn't say that he helped people to get drunk, most weedings have wine, but most of the times you don't end up with a hangover
It gets heavily abused and used as an excuse to drink more which leads to worse things.
In Orthodox churches, alcohol is served at most functions that aren't on fast days, but people who do drink generally only have a single serving. We also don't drink alcohol without also having a meal and non-alcoholic beverages (tea, coffee, water).
Except mine lol, not that I mind since I don’t really drink
Can confirm. Had wine at coffee hour today
Absolutely. Mine has people volunteer to host coffee hour (it’s impressive: more like hour and a half, attendance is probably 150 people at least, there’s always fruit salad and coffee, also doughnuts or bagels or homemade bread, possibly homemade Lenten soup or an entire lunch, possibly made from scratch, possibly Ethiopian, made from rare spices that can’t even grow in America), and once someone brought a box of wine to the coffee hour. I had a cup! 🙂👍 The picnic always has beer and wine, and a huge amount of food, including homemade desserts. For Pascha (a.k.a. Easter), the catechumens are baptized, then there is a nighttime service that ends at 1 AM, then there’s a party in the church hall until 3 or 4 AM. Every family brings a basket of food-it’s the end of the fast, from meat INCLUDING fish, AND eggs, AND dairy products, AND some of the time from alcohol-and drinks may be passed around to neighboring tables. We don’t get drunk, we drink a little, but we LOVE to party. We have a tough rule for fasting, then make up by feasting, also ethnic music and ethnic dancing. Has everyone seen Protestant heaven vs. Catholic heaven from the Simpsons? Orthodox heaven is the most extreme heaven. 😆
My priest reminds us every pascha that we’ve never had a case of drunk driving in our 30 years and he implores we keep that record
@@user-nw7fk1dj2mwe do the same. Most after mass functions have wine or champagne. Sometimes there is brandy, but that is much less and if there is leftovers from the catering centre the church operates.
The ''wine'' mentioned in the Bible was alcohol-containing WINE... NOT grape juice.
Noah did not get drunk on grape juice.
No wedding in Jewish tradition has EVER featured 'grape juice'.
Jesus did not turn water into grape juice.
Jesus did not prophesy that He would not drink of ''grape juice'' again until He came into His kingdom.
It was WINE!!
Thank you! Preach it louder for the people in the back! No one was serving Welch's grape juice from the 1800s at a Jewish wedding in the Bible. And, frankly, none of the Pharisee's slander of our Lord being a 'drunkard' makes sense if our Lord was part of a Jewish society that only drank 'grape juice'.
Not true. Jesus was Jewish. It was strictly forbidden to have leaven anywhere in the House during Passover. Fermentation process uses yeast to make wine. The Romans at that time used dried grapes and concentrated grape juice to make grape juice all year round without fermentation.
THANK YOU 😂😂
It's almost scientificly impossible for it to have not been alcoholic. Juice from grapes naturally ferments from the yeast, and with refrigeration and preservatives it will go bad if not turned alcoholic. So unless they were drinking freshly pressed juice all the time, it was definitely alcoholic
Grape juice is unnatural
Continuing Anglican here. Old Anglican joke: Wherever four of us are gathered together, there’s a fifth. Old Anglican gag: Jews don’t recognize Jesus as the Messiah. We, the East, and the Prots don’t recognize the Pope as head of the Church. Baptists … pretend not to recognize each other at the liquor store.
A quick summary of the Biblical position: You're allowed to drink; you don't have to drink if you don't want to; but if you do drink, don't get drunk.
You're allowed to, just not advised to
Wrong @@Jfernandez02 Psalm 104.14-15 says that wine is a blessing from God.
@@neilcameron7705 Reading proverbs 20:1, I doubt the Bible actually recommends you to drink, but I guess if you are sure it won't lead you astray you can
As with all things @@Jfernandez02 scripture needs to interpret scripture. To find harmony on this issue, all scriptural references to alcohol must be collated together. From Psalm 104 we see that God has given wine to us as a gift, but proverbs 20.1 shows that it is a gift that we should be careful in using because its misuse leads to sin.
An analagous issue would be sex. God created sex as a blessing; you don't have to have sex if you don't want to; but if you do have sex, it should be within the bounds of a monogamous heterosexual marriage.
@@neilcameron7705 yeah I see what you mean. I personally still take the route of abstinence in matters like this because I prefer to avoid being in any temptation at all, and I know I myself am weak to it. But different people have different weaknesses and different temptations
Orthodox typically take the opinion of drunkenness is a sin, but alcohol consulting an of itself is not sinful, as long as it isn’t coming between you and God. My priest has even given me a 6 pack for doing some electrical work at his house. He also told me the following joke: “Do you know the difference between an Orthodox Priest and a baptist minister? The Priest will say “Hi” when you see him at the liquor store.”
…or «Слава Иисусу Христо»
Funny enough, I saw my priest at an orchestra concert last night since the program was awesome & he used to play with them for several years
When I was still 20 or so years old and an inquirer and hadn’t yet acquired a taste for alcohol, I told my priest about my displeasure for alcohol as he received a free bottle of whiskey on Pascha. He joked and said “oh, you don’t like alcohol? Maybe the nondenominational church is right for you.” I got a laugh out of that one, but in a way he’s kind of right. A few months later I ended up finally acquiring that taste and can enjoy beer in moderation without it causing problems for me.
"Wherever the Catholic sun does shine, there will always be laughter and good wine"
-Hilaire Belloc
At least I've always found it so. Benedictamus Domino!
And then ask a man, who can’t offer it, for forgiveness
@@sird2333 Jesus literally gave men the power to forgive sins
"The sins you forgive will be forgiven"
Unless it's March lol
There is literally not a single verse in the New Testament that says to go to God directly and ask Him to forgive your sins. Not that I don’t think you can, but seriously dude. The only thing passages say is that God will forgive us our sins, but the Bible doesn’t mention going directly to God. The Bible says mention men being able to forgive sins multiple times, however:
John 20:22-23
And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive anyone’s sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.”
Jesus literally gives the Apostles Authority to forgive sins. Catholics believe that the successors of the Apostles, the Bishops, Priests, etc, carry on this Authority. I know Protestants don’t believe in Apostolic Succession, but it makes little sense for Jesus to give this Authority to the Apostles, for such a short period of time, for what seems like no reason, in the Protestant viewpoint. This is also the first time God has Breathed on man in the Scriptures since Adam, so it kind of weird that this is so important, for what would be to a Protestant a temporary and trivial thing.
James 5:14-16
Is anyone among you sick? Let them call the elders of the church to pray over them and anoint them with oil in the name of the Lord. And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise them up. If they have sinned, they will be forgiven.
Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person is powerful and effective.
Man, there’s a reason why Martin Luther did not like the Book of James. In context, this is talking about the “Elders” of the Church, or Greek word Presbyter, which in English, is Priest. And it says to Confess your sins to “one another” , in this context. It also mentions Anointing of the Sick as well if you catch that. Now, the Bible actually mentions the Apostles Appointing “Elders” as their successors. The Bible record them “Laying Hands” on people to do this. The Apostolic Fathers, men who knew the Apostles, or knew a man who knew the Apostles. wrote in their writings that Christ had Founded a Universal (Catholic) Church, that had Bishops, Priests, and Deacons, that you must Obey like God, Christ, and the College of the Apostles. They say that Bishops, etc, had been prophesied long beforehand, and that the Apostles Appointed them to be the leaders of future believers. And to not schism from the Church, or contradict Tradition. We see the early Roman Church telling other Churches to Obey it (Peter says He’s in Babylon, or Rome, and his Tomb is located there). We see other men saying they desire what Rome says to remain in force, and that Rome holds the Presidency. And we see early first century writings telling us to “Confess your sins in Church.” For context, St John the Apostle, Died around 100 AD. Some of these writers are St Ignatius of Antioch (AD 110, knew John the Apostle), Clement of Rome (Third Bishop of Rome, knew the Apostles), the Didache, the Epistle of Barnabas, and Ireneaus in Against Heresies.
Besides this, there’s other verses:
Matthew 9:6
But I want you to know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins.” So he said to the paralyzed man, “Get up, take your mat and go home.” Then the man got up and went home. When the crowd saw this, they were filled with awe; and they praised God, who had given such authority to men.
Now, obviously Christ has Authority to forgive sin, because He’s God, but this is foreshadowing Confession. The “Son of Man”, and men (plural) have been given this authority.
Now, obviously I want to point out that it is God Who forgives the sin, the Priest acts as an Ambassador for Christ, and says “You are forgiven”, and the sin is forgiven.
I also wanted to point out that this is actually a really good system, this way you actually know you are forgiven, instead of wondering if you were truly sorry, and actually forgiven, it make amends with not just God, but the Church, which your relationship with is also strained by sin, etc.
I'm an SDA and have never drank in my life. Considering how I handle addictive drinks like coffees and sodas this religious abstinence has likely saved my life.
As a former SBC, I can tell you they wait until the liquor store is empty so no one sees them buy alcohol.
It's an old joke, "Jews don't recognize Jesus as the messiah, Protestants don't recognize the pope as the head of the church, and Baptists don't recognize each other at the liquor store."
Always take at least two Baptists fishing. If you take only one Baptist with you fishing, then he will drink all of your beer. If you take at least two Baptists with you fishing, you have all the beer to yourself!
Mormons and Southern Baptists do not speak to each other in the liquor store.
And here I am, a highly religious Orthodox-Catholic Christian, having attended Mass last night, watching this video on a Sunday morning while enjoying my third double screwdriver.
@@jimbobjones5972 I think all Christians should be okay with moderate alcohol consumption, as this is the biblical position. I say this even though I personally don’t drink anymore. I just have no desire to, not that I see it as inherently sinful in moderation. There are still people that think wine means grape juice though so that’s a problem.
"When we drink beer, we go to sleep. When we sleep, we commit no sin. When we commit no sin, we go to heaven. So let us drink beer and go to heaven." --Martin Luther
What does that even mean? like a little beer helps you sleep or getting drunk helps you sleep?
@ogloc6308 both
@@ogloc6308beer makes you tired, especially if you drink a lot
Attributing that statement to Martin Luther is rather low. I will give you a version of this has been seen written sometime in the 16th century.
@@hudsondonnell444 Lol yeah, works-based salvation doesn't sound like Luther
Regarding the wine at Canada John 2:9, 10
9 When the master of the feast tasted the water now become wine, and did not know where it came from (though the servants who had drawn the water knew), the master of the feast called the bridegroom 10 and said to him, “Everyone serves the good wine first, and when people have drunk freely, then the poor wine. But you have kept the good wine until now.”
The master of the feast had expected that the "good wine" would have been served first, and when the "reserve" wine was served the attendees would have been perhaps a bit tipsy and wouldn't notice the inferior wine.
Jesus turned plain water into the tastiest, most delectable wine that the master had ever drank.
It wasn't "Welch's Grape Juice".
Cana.
@@tonyu5985 Duh!
The marriage at Canada came much, much later. Thanks for the correction 😄
😂 Spellcheck historical revisionism
The master of the feast would have said "eh?" a lot more if the wedding had been at Canada, rather than Cana...
@@DamonNomad82 “Everyboody serves the Moosehead first and aboot the time they’re good and snockered they bring out the Labatt’s, eh?”
From a Jehovah's Witness: thank you for being fair and respectful of views you disagree with. You're correct that we don't have any objection to alcohol within secular legal limitations, and as long as one is not harming themselves or other people (for example getting drunk to the point of falling to other sins).
Although, we're strongly opposed to Cigarettes at all. It's not an unforgivable sin, by any means, but not something consistent with being a member in good standing. Although, we would fall short of an "abolishionist" classification only in that we don't meddle in politics. We'd be happy if tobacco were completely outlawed, but that's for other people to decide for themselves.
I remember before I converted, in high school, I actually went to church and Sunday school with a friend a few times... Church of Christ, they had the "Wine in the bible was actually grape juice" theory. These days I'm astounded that churches could take this position, it's pretty ridiculous... I mean, they have the freedom to teach what they want, but it's just not factually tenable.
So you have concerns about what is factually tenable...
Nope, I am not touching that one.
@jamesparson I mean... many things that people find unbelievable in the Bible are either a) So far out of historical memory that it's impossible to verify and/or fantastic, or b) supernatural/miraculous in nature. That's what you're referring to, right? The grape juice/wine thing is in neither of those categories. You probably don't know why since you're obviously not too quick on the uptake, but I'll explain it for you.
First of all, one of the biggest reasons to make wine, is to extend the life of the grape. Grape juice, and grapes, spoil very quickly, especially in warm climates. Using fermentation, the wine is prevented from spoilage and can thus be stored for extended periods of time.
Secondly, the entire symbolism of wine being used sacramentally is that it has been "purified"... the leaven has been removed, and the alcohol in the wine kills anything that is impure/harmful (in the same way that Christ's blood washes away OUR "leaven": sin.)
So if ya knew anything about horticulture, history, OR the reason many things are the way they are in the Bible, you'd have understood why I said it is not factually tenable: there is no possible way Jesus turned water into "grape juice", or used "grape juice" during the last supper. Instead you showed your ignorance by scoffing at things at a very surface level, without taking a minute to rub your two brain cells together and think about it.
Have a nice Sunday! 👍
@@mercster I wish you knew how overconfident you sounded.
@@jamesparson Mmmhmm :)
@@mercster I 100% agree with what you’re saying, but not your insulting attitude. Even though you’re factually correct, and I also explain this to people; you’re not debating with love my friend. Be careful of this.
Well played dropping a 30 minute video on alcohol less than a week into lent 😂🍺
My abstinent mother said if you never drink you'll never have to wonder if you have a drinking problem. I wish more of my alcoholic relatives had the same position. I've lost several close family members to it.
That’s a good outlook to have, but that doesn’t mean the Bible outright condemns alcohol use.
@@ihiohoh2708 The Bible doesn't say lots of things, it doesn't tell you not to smoke tobacco, it doesn't tell you that everyone should get to vote for our government, etc. I believe in the Living God, the Living Christ, they didn't stop living 2000 years ago.
Only some people develop alcohol dependence
@@anthonymccarthy4164sure but tobacco usage isn't really linked to deadly addiction only cigarettes/synthetics do that. In ancient to the early industrial period alcoholism was very rare and was an effect of mental illness. It was with industrial distillation and cultures with hard liquor as their prefered drink, like protestant countries, that made intoxication endemic. Any Catholic country that prefers hard liquor like Ireland and Mexico have high rates while Italians and France do not because wine isn't habit forming and slow to activate. As for democracy, having a nation run by banks that hate you isn't the worst government but it certainly has no special advantages with any other system.
@@charlesramirez587
If there is a correlation, you still have to ask what causes what.
It seems more likely to me that alcoholism causes people to gravitate towards more concentrated drinks than the other way around.
Also, it's not just alcoholism that is sinful, all forms of "binge drinking" are sinful, whether you are addicted or not.
Your description of AG checks out. I was raised AG (currently Greek Orthodox). My parents didn’t agree with everything the denomination taught, to wit: that drinking and dancing are sins. Whatever the National Assembly says on their website, the practical effect (at least where we lived) is pastors teach any consumption of alcohol is a sin. When questioned about it, though, they’ll use such explanations as are found in the document you cited.
Despite my parents’ beliefs, they never drank alcohol while my sister and I were under drinking age. To this day, we only drink very occasionally and very lightly.
When I was a teenager, I remember asking my pastor about the wedding in Cana. He said the wine was grape juice, because there was no “time for the grapes to ferment.” I found this argument specious, especially since this same pastor insisted God created the world in 6 literal days (something I also did not believe at this point, though I still saw the inherent contradiction).
As I look at all these statements, especially the one insisting Jesus would never “tempt” people with drunkenness, it makes me wonder whether some of the abstinent and prohibitory positions stem from imposing a modern understanding of drunkenness upon an ancient world.
I also grew up in the Assemblies of God. It’s a very fine-line between “voluntary abstinence” from alcohol and “prohibition”. The main difference being the degree of consequences that church members face if found to be drinking.
AG churches should generally fall under abstinence because while they teach very strongly against drinking alcohol, there aren’t many strong consequences for a church member who does drink.
I’m currently United Methodist by the way, and the UMC is only barely in the “abstinence” camp. In practice, it’s moderate drinking but with a VERY strong emphasis on avoiding drunkenness. Even Methodist clergy don’t generally face consequences from moderate drinking.
When I hear the statement on "Jesus wouldn't tempt them with drunkenness", what I think is the members of those churches do not understand that responsible moderate drinking is even possible. Maybe they come from a past of struggling alcoholics or have family members that struggled with it or they've just always lived in a tradition that believes alcohol is evil.
I'm Catholic. When my family gets together, we drink wine. Collectively we can finish a lot of bottles, but none of us get drunk because we aren't guzzling it down. Responsible adults can go to a wedding and drink throughout the reception and not get drunk.
It's like the difference between Catholics, Calvinists, and Baptists.
-Catholics don't recognize Calvinists
-Calvinists don't recognize Catholics
-Baptists don't recognize each other at the liquor store
🏆
There's a place in Orlando called Castle Church Brewing. It's a brewery/bar, but it's also a church affiliated with (I think) the ELCA. You can have a pint in the middle of the sermon. I doubt I will ever see something so quintessentially Lutheran again.
>ELCA
>Lutheran
I stopped drinking over a year ago, one of the best decisions of my life. God bless.
When i grew up in the Free Will Baptist church we werent even supposed to go to a business that sold alcohol. We had to go to a special gas station just to get gas. My grandfather worked to get the strict stance lessened.
Such a strict observance of denominational doctrine is a personal problem more than anything. Good on your grandfather for trying to introduce sanity into your congregation, but if your parents actually followed that, that was their business. Personally, that sounds a little restrictive because so few places that sell food do so without alcohol. You would basically have to always eat fast food, and that doesn't sound healthy.
@@moblinmajorgeneral yeah, this was 40 years ago. The denomination has eased up some due to local laws allowing grocery stores to sell alcohol
last time I was this early Jesus drank alcohol
Worth noting that the Pharisees called Jesus a drunkard. An attack that only makes sense if he drank at all.
@@CMVBrielman Not to mention there isn't a single Bible verse calling for 100% abstinence from alcohol. If one believes that, then I hope they don't consume bread, pickles, sauerkraut, or even fruit juice itself. I'll state right now I don't personally drink. However, back in these times, as well as today, people used fermentation as a way to prolong the use of perishable items. Fermentation increases alcohol content. This increased the lifespan of people because not only was water scarce geographically, but it wasn't exactly safe to drink when you did find it. So even children drank wine. This continued throughout human history for a long time.
@@CMVBrielman Also, the Greek word _oinos_ is translated as wine, which was the same word in Greek used for specifically alcoholic wine. That same word appears in Ephesians 5:18 "And be not drunk with wine..." That is the same Greek word found in Scripture of Jesus turning water into wine. God bless.
Last rime I was this early Jesus turned wine into his Blood
Normie
Another great video I love the content you put out!
Just a note to the host thanking this channel and you for the work and the content that work produces. So much quality and substance. Positively encyclopedic.
I have always wondered about this. Thank you for this information!!
Even if we grant the New Testament “οἶνος” can mean both alcoholic and nonalcoholic wine - I don’t know enough to determine - the interpretation that the “οἶνος” at Cana was nonalcoholic makes no sense to me. 🤔
Having tasted Jesus’s wine, the MC said: “Everyone serves good wine (‘οἶνον’) first, and then when people have drunk freely (‘μεθυσθῶσιν’), an inferior one; but you have kept the good wine (‘οἶνον’) until now” (John 2:10). If the wedding wine at Cana was alcohol-free, how would “drinking it freely” (μεθύσκω, ‘to make drunk, to get drunk, to inebriate, to intoxicate’) hinder the guests’ ability to perceive a potential poorer quality of later servings?
Excellent point.
Then your Jesus promotes drunkenness and cannot legitimately be the Son of God.
@@sirwondernut2815 responsible adults can drink at weddings and not get drunk. I know, it's shocking
@@sirwondernut2815 : Could you flesh out your argument a little more? I don’t think Jesus condones drunkenness.
Do you think in my comment I’ve misrepresented Jesus’s actions, words or opinions? If yes, then where? And how from that misrepresentation would it follow that He promotes drunkenness?
In a world without refrigeration or canning technology, fermentation is the only way for juice to keep for long periods of time. It would have been a waste of farm land to grow grapes meant only for juice, which would need to be drank within a few days of harvest. Fermentation is God's gift to a (literally) decaying world.
Thank you, Joshua for all the exhaustive research you do for #ReadyToHarvest videos! 🙏
It's a shame that all these videos haven't reached more views, like some more biased Christian TH-cam channels.
Anyway, speaking from the POV of the "Other" group, growing up SDA , #temperance was taught to almost Prohibition Era levels, whereas I don't hear about it as much, these days.
I imagine that it may be similar to our LDS friends. Similarly, there are probably subsets in both faith communities who do drink moderately and/or socially.
For those familiar with the #BlueZones study, #Adventists are portrayed as teetotalers, which many are, but it would be interesting to compare and contrast the diet and drinking habits of both the SDA and LDS communities. Both well-known for their Prohibition stances. 👍
This channel is a marvelous resource!
Great job,Joshua.🌹⭐🌹
I didn't see any explicit Bible verses demanding Prohibition or Abstinence. Pretty much any denomination pushing those 2 positions aren't doing it on Biblical grounds. Moderation is clearly the Bible's position.
By the way, I don't drink personally. I have nothing against it, and used to drink a bit, but I've lost the taste for it. I do object to some religions pushing prohibition on religious grounds, since I believe there is no Christian basis for that position.
I agree with this. I don't like to drink myself. Alcohol is a poison to my taste but I do think that it is a place in some areas and moderation is key. Since all things can be bad if abused; alcohol, sex, etc. Our communion has actual wine.
True, the Bible doesn’t state directly, but there is the verses and references like proverbs 20:1, nazarites and the priests relationship with drink and that God’s chosen people is a nation of Priests, I would say that it is can be interpreted as both abstinence and prohibition views are valid.
@@shulkash8799 I think it is a stretch when Jesus himself took the time to change water to wine.
@@dancahill9585 We don’t know if what type of wine it was, because it was not specified if it was new wine or old wine, so each person can speculate which type of wine it was, it still a miracle either way.
@@shulkash8799 We know what wine is. They knew what wine is. We also know who the Christians who pull theology out of their ass are.
I'm not aware of anyone who endorses binge drinking, also as a former binge drinker, the threshold set to acquire the designation seems somewhat vague. Four drinks in one setting, can be four drinks in less than an hour, or four drinks over several hours.
Yeah I've never understood the way binge drinking is categorized. It lumps together college students taking shots and chugging with people drinking 6 beers over the course of an afternoon watching football.
4:09 Yas!!! That's what I've been wanting you to do. Talk about some of these polls in your videos. Have a topic that is related, and discuss how people voted. Maybe even have a follow-up video where you discuss the denomination who came up with that statement. Link the two together.
Thank you for your hard work, this was a pleasure to watch and very informative. Just a couple thoughts on my own denomination. While I recognize that the statement by the RPCNA is on the stronger side (I assume you’re referring to Testimony 26.6, but I apologize, I’m new to the website and struggling to find the references), and that the RPCNA went through a period of total prohibition, as a longtime member I don’t think it would be fully appropriate to put them in the abstinence category rather than moderation. I’ve always taken the statement as strong encouragement that abstinence is wholly acceptable and often appropriate but by no means a requirement. The denomination publicly repented for taking a stance they believe went beyond the requirements of scripture and wrongly bound consciences. They initially stopped requiring abstinence by members, and then in the 80s I believe ceased to require church officers to abstain.
All of that said, grape juice is used in communion more often than average in a Reformed denomination and it is sometimes a divisive issue. But it’s also a tradition among many of the ministers to visit a family owned bar and have dinner and **moderately** enjoy some beverages together after the conclusion of the annual synod.
I like how you disclaimered your use of the term "evangelical." In modern usage it's not particularly useful because it gets used sometimes as a catchall term for "theologically conservative protestant" but many such groups do not refer to ourselves as Evangelical, and it means rather more than just "theologically conservative protestant" to those that actually claim the term.
Evangelical in the modern Parlance refers to mostly Denominations that were founded in the mid 20th Century.
The Lutheran Pietists were the forebears to these groups and that's where that label comes from.
@@acekoala457 Most of the Evangelical groups (that actually claim the name, as opposed to having it slapped on them by people like Pew) I'm familiar with can trace back to Wesleyan/Holiness groups rather than Pietist, and the NAE's published list of member denominations would seem to match that, with the two biggest groups being Holiness and Pentacostals, and Wesleyan/Holiness/Pentacostals/Charismatics making up just over half of the NAE's member denominations (as compared to groups with Pietist heritage, who were only 15%).
There's an argument for Pietist influence in both historical and modern usage of the term for sure (especially if limited to the dictionary definitions found in Webster), but I don't think it would be correct to say that they're the forebears of the modern Evangelical movement, and thus the source of the modern meaning of the term, at least when it's being used to mean something other than "Theologically Conservative Protestant".
Btw if you choose to not follow the words of wisdom (LDS) you cannot be baptised and be a full member of the church but are free to continue to come to services and take part in events
No thanks
Non memebers of the church and thoes who do not sware to uphold the WOW are allowed to drink
@@RobertPresson Do you think your alcoholism is the reasoning for your receding hairline and predator mustache?
@@LatterUni25 I have no idea who hurt you so bad but I'm sorry you're unhappy and I pray you come to Jesus to find healing and forgiveness. Blessings 🙏
I couldn't ever become a member of the LDS church. I'm English and I drink tea.
Thanks for the videos!
Enjoying this video while drinking in moderation… excellent research as always.
Something to keep in mind regarding some Baptist denominations is that while they may not actually see disciplined consumption as being prohibited by scripture, they do recognize that it is sinful to do something that would cause a brother or sister to stumble. As such, if they do drink, it will usually be privately or in small groups who are not tempted to excess or offended.
The soundest advice I ever received was from my doctor: "Treat alcohol as food, take it, if you wish, with food at some meals and not otherwise." (In other words, alcohol is not a recreational drug.) We enjoy an appropriate wine with most evening meals.
Well rounded overview
Nice comparison.
I loved the IPHC's explicitly circular reasonging. 'wine is bad' therefore the Cana miracle involves grape juice. Cana is grape juice, therefore wine is bad. Funny how wine was perfectly acceptable in contemporary Jewish culture, universally accepted in the early Church, and no other scholarly community suggests that οινος means anything other than fermented wine.
There is a reason we call it "Lutheran Lemonade"...
It's also worth noting that many historical Temperance Pledges explicitly stated two exceptions: (1) the use of alcoholic wine in the Lord's Supper; and (2) alcohol prescribed by a physician as medical treatment. Sometimes these exceptions were taught by the Christian temperance organization, but not mentioned in the pledge.
Have a drink. Have two. Have a third...
What's gonna happen?
God will send you to hell? ...Forever?...and ever?... For having a few drinks?
Hmmmm,
That does not sound like a god i would like to know at all.
Cheers!
🍾🥂🍷🍸🍹🍺🍻🥃 ☕☕☕
@@guylarcher6005 It is interesting to see that people almost become offended when you say you don't drink. Honestly, that's part of the fun of being teetotal - watching people become dumbfounded and angry when I tell them that I have made a personal choice to live without alcohol, because I believe it is the best choice for me.
Not drinking:
Personal choice =just fine
Forced by fear of hell =not so much
@@guylarcher6005 the reason for temperance was to prevent domestic abuse and family abandonment.
I work at a Pentecostal institution of higher education, and we used to have a statement in our staff handbook on expected behavior (that we had to sign) saying that we would not drink alcohol except when taking Communion. But I knew from multiple VPs that the working policy was more of a "don't ask, don't tell" situation. The prohibition on alcohol was quietly taken out of the staff handbook last year.
Ask yourself, "How do my actions glorify God?" If "Wine is a mocker and beer a brawler"
(Prov. 20:1), then how does consumption of it glorify God? It can't.
any position that makes Jesus a sinner is a stupid position. read Luke 7:34.
@@iphidamasfilms1245 Jesus had to get where the people were. The people who needed saving. "Friend of sinners", yes. And perhaps you missed the part about wine then being way different from wine now. You probably wouldn't want to drink the potentially disease-ridden water either. I highly doubt Jesus was a "social drinker" and definitely not a binge drinker. And perhaps even his divinity gave him an immunity to the effects of wine.
My church is extremely strict on alcohol. Most of us have never drank alcoholic beverages
lol
That’s what they might say, but in reality…
I assume you have never eaten bacon either.
Which church is this? Is it Mormon?
@@mikenogozones We are all baptists
Most Eastern Churches have a national ale. The exception is the Coptic Church which officially teaches prohibition but that's only because of the Islamic government of Egypt. History shows the Copts used to drink wine as there's a reference to it in a debate between a bishop and a Muslim.
At the grocery store I bought a $5 scratch ticket. 2 suited men I didn't know came over to me and told me for buying that ticket they were having me kicked out of church. What church I asked. The JW. Ive never been a member of the JW.
I hope you thanked them😂
Did you ask when Jesus is coming? For their like 400th prediction…
They will knock on your door and beg you to join down the road
This story is a load of bull. No JW would approach you to say that if they didn't know you. They wouldn't say that if they _did_ know you but they might counsel you in a kind manner. No JW would dream of approaching a stranger in such an aggressive manner. You're either full of it or they weren't JWs. Another option is that it's a story you've heard in some format, probably about another group, and decided to apply it to JWs. Unfortunately for you, you seem to know little about JWs and for some reason you have an axe to grind. One added piece of info for you: a JW would _never_ call it a church.
Consider yourself called out!
It is notable that "American native" churches are much stricter on alcohol than churches who's centered more outside America like, Catholic, Orthodox and Lutheran churches.
Probably the impact of the white man using whiskey as trade resulting in alcoholism.
I'm sure it's probably as much about avoiding alcoholism as it is a religious view.
@@squiddwizzard8850 I don't know about that. (Orthodox) Greeks and Turks aren't typically seen as the worlds most sober. Koza Matstro and Agathonas Iakovidis aren't singing "Alcohol is bad", you know. And Catholic Irish literary invented Whiskey.
@@Frahamenyes but those don't have the history of alcohol being used to swindle people out of their lands
Jesus made the strongest wine 😊
I was interested in the Poll results you shared. Did you stop running polls?
Jesus turned water into wine at a wedding. He shared wine with his Apostles at the Passover that became the Last Supper. Moderation. In all things.
Me and my family are church of God (Pentecostal) and my mom and dad are against drinking at all while I lean more towards it’s ok to drink so long as you abstain from overconsumption and drunkenness, everything can be used for the good it’s just mankind has taken these things and chose to abuse it
My only reason why I probably won’t ever touch it is because of my family history with alcohol abuse and I don’t want to fall into the same hole they did
We attended a CEC church for a time. The "transubstantiation" of the wine required the priest to drink any left overs. In this very tiny congregation the chalice was always filled. The priest was always sloshed at noon on Sundays. Curiously, he wasn't so intent on eating all the wafers.
In the Catholic Church, the precious blood must be consumed by the priest, left over "wafers" are kept in the tabernacle for the sick. Mustum or unpasteurized grape juice is allowed under certain circumstances.
It is much easier to reserve the bread. Nevertheless, given the small number of communications,he probably should not have filled the chalice to the brim. I've been attending a CEC parish for a few weeks now. The priest there, formerly Roman Catholic, only consecrates a small amount of wine and only distributes communion to the congregation under the species of bread.
The priest should prepare only enough wine to satisfy the requirement of consuming the sacrifice, plus the anticipated number of sips from the congregation, if any.
As an elder in an LCMS church, we would consume ALL of the leftover elements after service...
@@timnewman1172 you reserve nothing for communion of the sick?
Where ever four Episcopalians are gathered together, you will find a fifth.
hi is there a video on this channel about the use of wine/wine alternatives in holy eucharist? across denominations
The "no biblical definition of moderation" argument around 16:00 is amusing, because I assume AG churches advocate moderation in eating, yet not abstinence of food. No clear-cut definition means we need wisdom and the Holy Spirit's guidance on a topic, not that we must avoid said thing altogether.
Was an age range included in the study? In my personal experience as a consumer of alcohol for nearly forty years, and working as a bartender for twelve years when I was younger, binge drinking tends to be a younger persons endeavor.
I had the same thought. Are self identified agnostics maybe skewing younger explaining higher binge drinking rates?
I do enjoy your videos
I'd say that binge drinking needs an additional component to its definition--it needs to be within a certain period. Because your blood alcohol level doesn't go up as high the more you space things out.
Andthe amount of drinks should depend on the person. Some people are more resistant, others far less.
Ill tell you that the AG is for prohibiting it as well rather than just abstaining
We must do all we can to keep them from power then.
Mike Winger has a fantastic, in-depth, and very balanced study entitled "What the Bible Says about Alcohol" published on TH-cam that I would recommend to anyone, regardless of your current position on the subject.
It was definitely an eye-opener for me as many of the passages had never been preached on at any of the churches I grew up in - mostly because God apparently doesn't follow the party line of the denomination. It is interesting that for any Protestant denomination that traces its roots to the Reformation and Sola Scriptura, on this subject, it appears Church Tradition is indeed often given more weight than Scripture.
Mike is very clear in his presentation that he isn't trying to change anyone's personal convictions, but only to review the full counsel of Scripture on the topic, and that regardless of your ultimate conclusion, the essential criteria is the Christian's commitment to the Lordship of Jesus Christ in this area of their life.
Can you make a similar video on smoking? Thanks a lot! :-)
Religious Society of Friends/Quakers were involved in the Prohibition movement. But now it varies between abstinence and moderation depending on the individuals. But many or at least some still abstain.
The reason we were involved in temperance is because at the time there were issues of family abandonment and abuse.
People always forget about that when Prohibition is mentioned. It wasn't about prudishness.
Allegedly George Fox himself, our founder enjoyed a pint in a brewery and was invited to a drinking contest. He declined, seeing it as foolishness. Which, even that isn't necessarily moderation and could easily be seen a declination of contests.
On Jordan's bank the Baptist's cry,
If I were them then so would I!
They drink no beer, they have no fun,
I'd rather be an Anglican!
We always sang it "... thank God I am a Lutheran!"
Not a Baptist, but I would only be "crying" if I had to consume alcohol, which tastes like vomit to me. That said, I have no theological objection to others consuming it in a responsible and moderate way, just don't expect me to have any!
I like how you posted this on sunday and I gave up alcohol for lent
Southern Baptists are quaking right now
Will the Southern Baptist Convention ever recover from this? XD
The whole world (otherwise): Quaker Oats
SBC: Quaker Alcohol
Tbh I am SBC church member and no SBC church I’ve ever been to has taken that stance on alcohol. Pretty much all of them take the abstinence stance.
As a Quaker, they better not be. That's our thing! 🤣
In Bulgaria only Adventist never use alcohol. I never encounter another group that follows the health principles that seriously! They actively hold health seminars across the country against drinking...
So all denominations ignore Proverbs 31:6-7 which seems to recommend drunkenness in certain cases: "Give strong drink to one who is perishing, and wine to the bitter in soul. Let him drink and forget his poverty, and remember his misery no more."
Also, in John 2 at the wedding in Cana the text seems to say the guests were already drunk when Jesus gave them more wine: John 2:10 "and said: everyone serves the fine wine first, and then the cheap wine after the guests are drunk. But you have saved the fine wine until now!” The translations which say "have drunk freely" there are wrong, the word there means "are drunk". The same Greek word is used in noun form in Matthew 24:49 for 'drunkards', and similarly in Acts 2:15 when it's said "they are not drunk".
Then Jesus contradicted the Old Testament, and promoted drunkenness, which means he couldn't be the Son of God.
@@sirwondernut2815 Except he's just quoted both the Old and New Testament in his defense, so no, try again.
@@Mic1904 The main point is if Jesus promoted drunkenness than He couldn't be the Son of God.
@@sirwondernut2815 Except he didn't. An proper alcohol usage is ordained by God in multiple Old and New Testament passages. Try again.
@@Mic1904 And yet in your original comment you claimed that the people at the wedding were drunk. And Jesus gave them even more to drink, encouraging them to overindulge in alcohol even more. What loving God would lay out that drunkenness is a sin then send HIs Son, Jesus, to make wine for a bunch of drunkards?
As a Mormon I find this video fascinating
Particularly in that Protestants have such a conflicted opinion of Catholics that they lump them in with *us!*
I find you, a Mormon, fascinating
@@MasonStPeter-oe8tu I find you, a person fascinated with Mormons, fascinating.
Lol, had to keep it going.
I am also a Latter-day Saint. How may I assist you in your fascination of us?
I can boil down the differences between all denominations to one simple thing. Every single one of them has a small set of scriptures that get pulled out of context, spin into a doctrine, and then the rest of scripture must be subjugated to it. This is how a false teacher creates something different through which they can attract others to himself. This difference usually satisfies some itch people have so they will hold on to it for deer life.
You never know who's going to become a problem eater, while you're supporting the food production industry.
Now I am interested what all other denominations have to say about the alcoholic content of wine that Jesus made. Is it denominations specific or all denomination agree that Jesus wine was non-alcoholic. :P
Essentially all churches that baptize babies will tell you it was alcoholic wine, and even some that don't will admit this. This is also the biblical position, especially when you examine the Greek text. The word _oinos_ means alcoholic wine. This appears in those verses.
We catholics believe Jesus made and drank literal wine with literal alcohol.
Orthodox Christians believe it was just what the New Testament calls it; "oinos" is Greek for wine, not grape juice. Like most Protestant fallacies, this one did not exist until the Protestant schism.
Hilarious that people look at writings that tell you that a person magically altered the chemical structure of a substance, introducing atoms that didn't previously exist and arranged them exactly in the right way to include all the lovely notes of freshly cut grass or whatever but argue over whether the oxygen and hydrogen atoms were in the correct order to get you a little tipsy
When I was a child, in the 'fifties, our Episcopal church held a fundraising cocktail party at the church, though not inside the church itself. It was successful in terms of raising money. My Methodist relatives did not approve. The minister was quietly kicked out years later after reports of his attempts to seduce teenage young men of the congregation.
OK, Boomer!
I’d be curious if the “abstinence/ prohibition” church culture is unique to America. In my experience European and non-western churches overwhelmingly hold the moderation position. I wonder if water quality in un/ under developed countries is a factor in a churches position on alcohol use.
So many religions, yet we are all children of God.
_"One Lord, one faith, one baptism"_ (Ephesians 4:5)
You just gotta find the right one.
I grew up Pentecostal, and I am currently Southern Baptist. I am sitting here enjoying my glass of wine and watching this video, lol...🤣😆
Born, raised, and still Church of Christ kid here… I’m enjoying a pour of Elijah Craig( ironical of you know the legend behind the guy) Barrel Proof watching this and thought, “Surely, I’m not the only one.” Haha.
@@scottellis7024are you part of the stone-campbell restoration Church of Christ?
Enjoy your wine 🍷, it's all good. I'm Catholic by the way. Love to all fellow Christians regardless of denomination.
I too am watching the video while drinking a glass of wine.
As a devout Whiskeypalian, I can assure you that the Blood of Christ is a nice tall glass of Tawny Port.
Really would have liked to see stats on alcohol consumption for groups that teach moderation, abstinence, and prohibition respectively. Particularly the last one, it would be interesting to see how many Latter-day Saints for example actually keep their church’s provision to not drink.
Have you done a video addressing Pentecostal holiness
That wouldn't take long. 🙄
No orthodox data?
Too small sample size. That said, many eastern European groups have unfortunate tendencies toward institutional alcoholism
Probably over 100%
St Paul said all things are permissible for me, but not all things are healthy. use your own discretion.
Large number of them are Eastern European. Places such as Russia and the Baltic states have more drunks per capita than people.
If option 4 still included considering drunkenness a sin then Lutherans fit option 4 as drinking is encouraged. Thank Martin Luther for the IPA.
Now you have me confused. I thought that IPAs were a British development?
@TheGrendelbane IPA is the official name we use today. The idea of using hops to make beer dates back to a nun way before Luther who was but merely experimenting. Confirmed hops can be used, but never actually invested in the experiment. Luther was the one who really popularized the use of hops when hops, a mere weed, was not taxed by the empire but a rampant weed in Germany. So Luther encouraged the use of hops and it became a hit. England especially loved it and coined the term IPA to describe the beverage. Look up "Luther hops taxes"
@@christopherboyd9855 I find several mentions of hops being used centuries before Martin Luther. I will continue to attribute the development of IPA to the Brits, but Martin Luther deserves some credit for popularizing the use of hops, but not for developing its use in brewing.
Hmm. I was expecting the three groups to include one that allowed you to consume small amounts of alcohol that does not affect how you feel.
To me, a lot of the difference in the last group is what is considered drunkenness. Does it include being "tipsy"? What about before that, where you relax but have no balance issues? And what about if you drink enough to help you sleep, but don't stay up and do "drunken" things? Is it okay as a painkiller?
Your actual second group surprises me, because most Christians I know would say that, if it's not clearly in the Bible, then it must inherently be up to the individual. That's what I would have expected the official position to be, even if some individuals hold the "abstinence position," as I do for myself.
Your channel is dope
I am a former Southern Baptist, now a prospective member in the Salvation Army, and my view on alcohol has changed. I formerly held a moderation viewpoint, as did most of those that I attended church with. I now, and not just because of Salvation Army teaching, hold to the abstinence position. I gain nothing by consuming alcohol, and I lose no joy by not consuming it either. I don't believe the consumption of alcohol to be sinful, but I do not see it as beneficial for me in any way.
Timothy would disagree with you.
@jasontstein given his stomach ailment and medical knowledge at the time, probably so. However, I stand by my statement for me alcohol has no benefit. Far be it from me, though, to judge anyone for choosing to imbibe.
I am in much the same position. I have no theological objections to the moderate consumption of alcohol, but I don't consume it myself, as it tastes like vomit to me...
Jesus did not turn water into Welches Grape Juice
I attend an AG church, and I definitely hold the “moderation” viewpoint.
My old AG pastor used to agree with abstinence, but I think he’s now in the moderation camp.
I'm just assuming that Mainline Lutherans and Northern Baptists were too busy going to the liquor store to come up with formal positions on alcohol consumption lol
Wedding at Cana.
As for the drinking statistics it would be very interesting to have them adjusted by age brackets
Not a dig at you, but rather the study
When our family moved to North Carolina from Chicago in the 1970's, lots of people asked us where we would go to church. I would reply that we were Catholic, and everyone would say, "Oh, you'll go to St. XXX." It was the only Catholic church in town. The first time I met our neighbors across the street, she asked the same question, but when I replied we were Catholic, she said, "Oh good! You drink." I cracked up. While we lived there, when either her mother or her husband 's mother visited, all their liquor came to our house for the duration.
I attend the Coptic Church, i think our position is abstinence. Egypt doesn't have much of a drinking culture. St Paul reccomended Timothy to drink some wine for his stomach, it isn't sin if used for certain purposes.
Egypt doesn't have a drinking culture because it is majority Islam, which prohibits drinking.
The Episcopal Church - whenever there are 3 or 4 gathered together, you will find a fifth among them. :)
Funny enough, prohibitions against alcohol finally sent me to the catholic church. I was a methodist growing up but the UMC went hard woke and i left after the kids started singing lady gaga songs. I went to a “free methodist” church after that. And the pastor straight out said anyone who even sips alcohol is going to hell. I said what about jesus and the apostles drinking wine and christ saying DO THIS in remembrance of me?
He said its good you know your scripture but Jesus wouldnt have used wine if they had another option. I just looked at him in silence. I only went back there once and it was almost as upsetting of an experience.
I feel totally at home in the Catholic church. Im not an alcoholic, i havent had a drink in six months outside the eucharist but if I decide to have a glass of wine with dinner, i dont want my pastor walking in and condemning me. I would want to offer him a glass and welcome him!
An episcopal Bishop in Maryland drove drunk and killed a man. She had been convicted of a DUI earlier, but the church kept her own as a bishop.
Catholicism is not a denomination. Denominations are subdivisions of protestantism; the Church has existed for centuries before protestantism was invented.
Same applies to Orthodoxy.
Simple question that will settle the matter immediately: Catholicism represents 100% of all Christians worldwide, yes or no?