@@AB_ATT Yes, I am looking forward to how they will actually frame this. You know - a secret is only a secret when it is not revealed... Or do you beg to differ? :)
"Game 1 feels like you're on the ride, and 2 feels like you snuck behind the scenes' Thats the best way I've heard it described. Now Return feels like returning with your kid, and telling them about the fun you had there as a kid
"Monkey Island 2"'s tragedy is the commodification of child imagination during the transition from the real-feeling world in the beginning to the fake theme park at the end. A child's imagination is truthful in the mind of the kid, but the industrial theme park is manufactured and only a pale shadow. Still IMHO the best representation of childhood wonder on any medium.
Monkey Island 2 has a few more clues about Guybrush & Chucky's past: -When you try to take a bone from the skeleton of Guybrush's mom, to make the voodoo doll, Guybrush will instead take one from his dad. So this only proves that the person Guybrush calls Dad is related to Chucky, not necessarily to Guybrush as well. Otherwise, you should've been able to take a bone from either skeleton. I mean this is a game that did NOT shy away from programming in a ton of optional actions. -When you examine the quill inventory item Guybrush says "Just like the pen from Mom & Dad's wedding!" How would he remember his parents' wedding? ....unless his mother (re-)married after he was already born... This, coupled with the "orphanage" comment by LeChuck makes me believe that his real parents really DID abandon him as a baby, left him at an orphanage, where he then was adopted by his new Mom, who then married his new Dad, which brought Chucky into his life as his new stepbrother. Maybe his biological parents really did die after that, which would explain them being skeletons.
@Hermes I did too. I was very young, though. Like eleven. The jokes landed because I was convinced that anything referencing grown up stuff out of my grasp was funny. That's what happens when you teach yourself to laugh at postmodernism when you're way too young to comprehend the humour. I played MI 1-3 after when I found that CMI with the "Monkey Island Madness" CD-ROM of the first two. The big white edged box. Since then I've interpreted the series as being two different game series in one with CMI being a sort of reboot, and I was about twelve when I got that. Shouts out to the SCUMM Bar website too. Loved reading that back then.
I started with 4 as well. I liked it a lot when I was little. Even as a 9 year old or so, I would then go on the internet and.. **clears throat** PIRATE the other three. And while I obviously think the other 3 are superior, 4 still has a place in my heart. Something about its depiction of the world captivated me, though I can't quite place what. My biggest gripe with it, both as a child and as a 23 year old dude, is that fucking Monkey Kombat. I swear to God it's so annoying, and time consuming.
Even as a kid playing MI1, I had a vague understanding of how the special effect was done on Stan's jacket. It looked cool back then. On the 3D versions though it looks like he's floating in the fucking matrix!
"I've gotten used to most point-and-clicks maxing-out hard on dialogue-trees and combination-puzzles bordering on ridiculous" Original Discworld, anyone?
Oh boy. Oh boy. For me, though, the endless dialogue is redeemed by cast. Eric Idle, Tony Robinson, Rob Brydon, Kate Robbins, and my fav John Pertwee. It must have been one of Pertwee's last ever gigs. I can't get enough of his Chucky Chucky Chucky. The limited cast actually is a source of humour for me. It reminds of point and clicks in the pre-voice era, when me and my friends/relations would voice the dialogue, each taking a different character. Obviously, there'd only ever be three or four of us at a time, not that different to the size of the Discworld cast. And I loved it when Rob Brydon did some of Rincewind's lines! But yeah, without loving the cast and hearing them have fun with the dialogue, I'd never have tolerated it.
This video really hits the feels! Whenever I remember MI1, it's all about wonder, joy, adventure, discovery! In fact, I can say most of my videogame playing life has been trying to get that feeling again. But MI2 it's just... Sadness, melancholy, a deep longing for don't-know-what. Even seeing that ending again just feels me with sadness. It's just weird. My guess is that the "secret" is not that it was all a dream, but at the same time it was a kid playing around. Ask a kid playing super-heroes, and they'll tell you they are not playing, they ARE the super-hero. They are seeing the world one way while adults see it another way, and both are correct.
Monkey Island 2 is my favorite of the series. Really love the characters, the way Guybrush developed. Monkey 1 Guybrush was me as a teen, Monkey 2 Guybrush is me at 30. Very relateable character.
OG Monkey Island gamer here. I fell in love with it when it was released in the early 90s. When I was a child in the late 70s and 80s, I played a lot of the graphical text adventures which were the great grandparents of the point and click adventure genre. I witnessed first hand where MI came from, and that perspective is lost when you jump into it from some future point in time, outside of the intended time in which it was designed to be played. Monkey Island was great because it was such a refreshing departure from what had become a stodgy mash of adventure tropes that had frustrated gamers like me for decades. The thing is, before Monkey Island, I didn't necessarily know that there *could* be an adventure game which would never put you into a game breaking, unwinnable state. This was just an accepted part of pre-MI adventure gaming. Another example: when you solve the puzzle of having to navigate through the maze to get to the Sword Master's house, the game doesn't make you walk back, nor does it make you walk through the maze on subsequent visits. That seems obvious to us now in 2022, but in the early 90s that was a refreshing revelation..."you mean I don't have to do it again and again?" The genius of Ron Gilbert's game design is that he took out a lot of these long standing mechanics of adventure games that made them tedious, frustrating and monotonous to play. And at the same time, he poked fun at the contemporary rivals (Sierra) which started making adventure games in the very early 80s but never evolved much beyond making their graphics better. Until the end, Sierra's puzzles remained frustratingly rooted in the "kill the player randomly for exploring/player can create an unwinnable game state/moon logic puzzles". I also agree that MI:2 had a completely different tone and feel to MI. I played it also at the time it was released. It simply didn't have the same industry shaking impact that the original did. I'm very interested to play the brand new Gilbert-made "Return to Monkey Island" to see whether his third have recaptures the magic of the first, the melancholy of the second, or is something totally new.
At one point In Monkey Island, Guybrush gets a dialogue option to ask the lookout if it is possible they're all just fictional characters in a novel. That always stuck with me... like they were trying to tell us something from the get go.
Man your video was amazing. And yes. The intended message reached me. There is some kind of magic in a theme park. BUT time dilates ideas. It's really hard to see something perdure so much in time and not bear any damage. This not only happened to MI, but its a very clear example.
That ending gave me chills up and down my spine. Monkey Island was my first point 'n' click: I watched my friend's dad play it on their PC (I think.) I played 2 on the Mac, and literally remember nothing about it other than the library card catalog, the beginning, and that ending. Never even played 3, 4 or 5. Replayed 1 again last year and it blew me away with its wit, humor and charm. I've considered myself a super fan of this series forever, even though I had legitimately played only one of the games. Now I'm looking forward to Ron Gilbert's Return to Monkey Island more than any game since Phantasy Star 1, and still consider myself a super fan.
Played through all of the Monkey Island games for the first time this week, after staving them off for years. Your experience and impressions of each of them are so similar to my own. This video was practically therapeutic. Subscribed, thanks so much for making this. I love it but am tortured by the phenomena of a series dropping something so cerebral and serious right in the middle and never quite finding that footing again, often because a real auteur gets in the middle of the corporate, safe choices made to establish it or recover from said auteur. As the fan you are left with an open mystery that is really invigorating but somehow kind of traumatic and, as you put it, sad. This series in particular, in that it’s about a “ride” took me into a very narrow and dark corridor of thinking for all of its fun reputation. So many years after everyone I suppose processed this Monkey Island business, I’m glad I’m not the only one heaping this series onto the list of 2020 to-dos.
As someone whose always had Monkey Island on my list to get to but kept putting it off, this thoroughly convinced me to get to it sooner than I would have otherwise. Also, I always find it challenging to give a critical eye to comedy-centric things I love, so as always I’m impressed at the level of dissection that explains the appeal without actively undermining it or underselling/overselling it. Good work. Proud of u.
Very insightful video on one of my favorite game series. Ron Gilbert still wants to make his Monkey Island 3, but sadly Disney refuses to sell the license, even if they're doing nothing with it.
Gilbert's Guybrush is a mysterious and deeply troubled hero that your can't wait to watch and help progress through his quest. Like Star Wars, like Indiana Jones; iconically Lucasfilm. You uncover bits of the mystery as you go, including the mystery and hilariousness of Guy, and you can't wait to peel another layer off and take a peak. We never learn what's haunting Gilbert's Guybrush or why, but by the end of MI2 there's no doubt he's fallen hard, and might have gone too far with voodoo spells. There was a plan for this characters arc, and what we got in curse, as summarized *perfectly* in this video, was a "wacky pirate romp". Perfectly fine, but not MI3. The art in Curse was incredible, but the humor hit wrong for me because the formerly deep, developed characters were saccharine, flat and soul-less. Without the mystery or depth, I remember wondering when I was 12, if Curse was written for much younger kids. I'm glad so many commenters loved it, but just understand why some of us refuse to accept 3, 4, 5 as the same world, it's because they're just games. Guybrush is gone and there's no deeper story, just a mug with a hole in the bottom.
MI 1-3 are still favorites of mine. And admittedly the inclusion of it in the lore of Sea of Thieves, as in the Pirate’s Life you can find journals from Kate Capsize detailing how LeChuck and Threepwood had made their way into the Sea of Thieves and how she is still seeking revenge for framing her, has rekindled my interest. Honestly I am now just hoping that whatever “continuation” it could see would be jumpstarted by a Sea of Thieves expansion.
Had a rough day today, seeing the notification for this made this day a 1000x better. I love your overall execution of these videos and puts a better perspective on some of my favorite series. It’s also so fantastic to hear someone’s opinion so close to mine about some of my favorite games and series.(Sly, MI, Sandiago, Sam and Max, etc... Either way, Thank you for making my day and being my favorite content creator. (P.S.: Plan on supporting you on Patreon when I get my next paycheck)
This is a really excellent video. I've only ever played the first two Monkey Islands, partly because the sequels weren't as readily accessible, and partly because I felt wholly satisfied by the ending of Monkey Island 2. You absolutely hit the nail on the head re: the melancholy feel of Monkey Island 2, though my lack of familiarity with theme park imagery and mentality didn't allow to pick up on the more subtle flourishes you expertly articulated here. The analogy of it being a game set "behind the scenes" is very apt. The playful relationship both games have to reality has always felt refreshingly honest about how childlike imagination actually works: so often media presents kids' imaginary play as a delusion, a total break from reality, but in actuality, the illusion is conscious and willingly maintained: kids don't actually believe they're pirates searching for the lost treasure of Monkey Island, they know they're just pretending but that doesn't mean we can't still have fun and *believe* in it while we're here. Monkey Island 2, to me, has always felt like a game set at the end of summer, when everyone else is a bit bored of the pirate game, less willing to play along and put up with the kid at the centre of attention until eventually, the willing suspension of disbelief breaks, and we're left back in reality, but still with inklings of that old imaginary adventure dancing around at the edge, waiting for the next time people want to play Pirates again. I'm rambling now, but it's just been great to relive my love of these games through this video. Monkey Island 2 is probably my favourite point-and-click adventure game of all time, and I think I forgot that until now. I think this might actually be my favourite video of yours, and that's saying a great deal considering how much I love your output, generally. Well Done!!!!!
Just wanted to say you got me into so many new things due to your videos. And made me think about my games in different ways. You even made me think about the Fantastic 4 in new and interesting ways. Nothing related to the current video, just wanted to say thanks for all the great content!
Finally someone who really gets it! That‘s exactly what Monkey Island is about. It’s not just some silly pirate story… It’s much more than that. Weirder, darker, though-provoking… I’m so excited about Ron Gilbert finally making his version of Monkey 3. If it goes the way it should be going, it will be a masterpiece. I’m sure a lot of people will hate it, but that’s ok, because it will be something unique, what Gilbert truly wanted to tell. And I can’t wait to play it!
The announcement of Return was what really got me to replay the first two Monkey Island Games, but this video is definitely what started me really wanting to give MI2 another chance. The ending really didn't work for me the first time, but hearing your defense of it helped me appreciate it much more on the second playthrough. I had also completely forgotten what was at the top of the elevator by the time I reached it, so seeing it hit so much harder knowing what was coming.
As an old fart who actually played MI1 and MI2 at times of their release, I must say that anything beyond MI2 didn't really gel with me. MI always had this underlying of darkness and surreal insanity beneath the surface, delightfully goosebumps-inducing, further exemplified with the infamous MI2 ending which back in the day I've found genuinely disturbing but also fascinating. Will the story continue? CAN the story continue? Will it even be a pirate story anymore? Then Gilbertless MI3 and other sequels followed and the series morphed into a wacky pirate romp. No more mystery, no more insanity, no more darkness, just silly cartoony fun. I did play them all but... no goosebumps. :(
MI3, 4, and Tales are great simply because they introduced everyone to the series. MI1 and 2 probably would have no where near this following and appreciation if the three never followed. Having said that, while they may be worse than 1+2, they are still amazing games in their own right.
Same here. Afaict it's also next to impossible to - purely in retrospect - recognize/appreciate the unparalleled atmosphere and immersion the first two installments provided. At the time there essentially was nothing as intriguing and 'vacation-like' as playing MI1/2 in all of (i.e. even non-interactive) digital media...
Interesting, because I agree that that’s a major element of the series but I felt Curse and especially Tales did incorporate that discomforting undertone.
This video is very well done. It's a hallmark B-Mask video, talking about older video games, theme parks, childhood, and legacies (the one I'd probably recommend to my friends if I'd want to introduce them to B). My biggest recommendation would be to elaborate on the purple feeling within the second game and the empty opportunities. I think the best phrase for describing your attraction to the second game is "morbid curiosity". An argument for the idea that not all games have to be fun and happy to be worthwhile. There's something engaging about watching something, at one point full of life, decay and fall apart. You talk about the second game being a bit like growing up and becoming disillusioned, which I can agree with, but I think the idea that this realization is tragic is a bit disingenuous. Sure, sometimes we wish we could be a kid again, but sometimes we don't. While anybody is allowed to like any game they want, I think a theoretical third game elaborating on this "inside a pirate theme park" would have been grand.
Another fantastic vid! I have yet to see a video of yours that doesn't have me wholeheartedly appreciating the nuance of something I've not yet taken the time to explore. Plus, I like how you deliver the comedic bits of your scripts. Keep making these awesome videos about whatever catches your fancy! I enjoy the hell outta them.
I know it’s an older video and this is going to sound corny but I just wanted to say that your content is above and beyond man. Whenever I’m working on a long project I put on your sly cooper video essays and it helps keep me motivated and inspires me to put in the same level of high quality work you put in with yours. Thanks for always putting a smile on my face with that fish people gag too :)
This exactly why Shigesato Itoi, the writer for the Earthbound series or known in the native Japanese release as ‘Mother’ stopped with Mother 3, the final game in the series. After that whatever goes on behind the scenes decided not to continue it as that's the end, the 3rd game of Mother is a unique experience.
I’ve always thought at the end of MI:2, when Guybrush falls deeper into the hole (after hanging off the rope with Big Whoop) the treasure chest shattered and the power contained within does a number on Guybrush, throwing him into some wonky pocket dimension where Le Chuck has some degree of power. All the anachronistic bits before that always struck me as silly 4th wall breaking humor, playing into the Pirates of the Caribbean tone. I have to agree the second game is more moody and melancholy; the music (Waterfall theme, the Tunnel theme, Phatt Island) is far more mellow and downbeat, with a few excellent exceptions (Capsize Charters). All in all a great game (just finished it again, so was on the lookout for videos about it), and tho a downbeat sequel its my favorite in the series. Thanks for the retrospective, always good to hear what other ppl think about these classics.
Yeah, still to this day I would say that the ending of MI2 is basically LeChuck being successful with his revenge. An MI3a could very well deal with this and use the idea one of the Tales episodes had: What if LeChuck and Guybrush were on friendly terms? But also I'd love to see some more mythology on Big Whoop as the biggest treasure that is a portal into another world and stuff.
@@SisterRose Yeah even the name of the treasure is absurd, but I liked the world-building of this being more than simply a hoard of gold and jewels, more a source of power. It was handled… ok in MI3, but it sounds like Gilbert and Co. had an idea for their MI3, and now we’re getting it. Can’t wait.
Excellent retrospective. You really hit the nail on the head how you broke down that the games after 1 and 2 lack subtext. 1 and 2 have such a eerie mysterious quality that the series lost when it became more cartoony and literal with its story.
With Monkey Island, I would say I prefer the setting being 'real'. The anachronisms in Monkey Island, while odd and quirky, I'd argue the setting can easily be interpreted as some vaguely steampunk conworld, like a sillier version of Dishonored (ok, new headcanon: They take place in the same universe). This is a world with lots of islands, a huge piracy problem, and some schizo tech. The dark and cynical nature of the setting, particularly as it grew, I'd argue can also be interpreted as an extension of two core themes: Pirates and Voodoo. The supernatural forces of the world are not necessarily evil, but they're generally quite spooky. Similarly, the most visible humans are pirates, which are greedy, amoral, and not overly intelligent. Corporations aren't too far from that and fit in perfectly with the pirates. I'm not saying the theme park idea is...the worst idea ever, but I'm just saying there's merit to the other interpretation.
The problem is that Pirates/Voodoo are aesthetics, not emotions. If you go for getting into world-building and lore crafting then that stuff matters, but it's so niche that most people don't have anything to hang onto unless the writing is really, REALLY good. Even then, it is what it is, a fun time waster. We could go on forever and eventually those who can't take any more will drop out. I could play sea of thieves or ghost vooju juju island or zack and wiki or etc etc But if it's a theme park from a child's POV? The reveal that this is actually a broad discussion of the human condition that most can truly relate to? Neat. Now i'm interested. Now we have somewhere to go. What do you want to tell me about my childhood, mr video game? I'm all ears.
@@AtticKnight Exactly. I have a feeling MI3a would take this idea further and go for broke, turning everything around to the player and say, "Look, video games can be fun, witty, cool and erudite uses of your times, but they're also fictional fabrications, momentary shadowplay theatre illusions, and you should go out and experience the outside world too, in all its glorious, hideous, harrowing wonder! Also, buy more grog!" B) ;)
B- Mask well its all down to what you like. It’s like Indiana Jones. Some just like to go along the ride. Some like inception. Different movies. Different agendas. Both as memorable in their own way. And if it’s a fun time waster. That is your opinion. Not all need to be deep and mysterious to create emotions. Far from.
@smylexx Monkey Island is like any relic in that warehouse that appears in the first and fourth Indiana Jones movies. Disney got a ton of franchises and brands that are useless for them and they will be resting in dusty piled boxes in some huge warehouse forever. Nobody will ever make MI see the daylight again.
A question for the author of this video. Are you excited for RoN Gilbert's Return to Monkey Island or do you feel that it is too much? I'm personally hyped for the MI2 real conclusion very much! I agree, that MI2 feeels somehow sad and melancholic and the mysterious, bitter-sweet ending just reinforces these feelings. I'm very curious to see how Ron Gilbert will follow it up...
This was interesting to watch because it's the first time I've heard an in-depth assessment of MI from someone who didn't play them as they were released. From my perspective, the first two games were the only real MI games. I played (and most others who liked MI played) Curse because it's all we had. I wanted more, and I knew that Lucasarts was still in charge, so it was the next best thing to a *real* MI game. Don't get me wrong, your assessment is spot-on, but nothing surprising. It's a good summation of what most, if not all, MI fans went through with the series. Perhaps the one less-oft talked about point that you touched on it the sad tone of MI2. Despite the popularity of the game, I think the tone of the game echoed the imminent fate of adventure games in general. The fact that a *real* MI3 never got produced is closely linked to the fate of Indiana Jones and the Iron Phoenix. Yes, I know the official reason was that Germany wouldn't release it, but it says a lot that they thought they couldn't recoup costs on an Indiana Jones title in the US alone. Ron Gilbert is a smart cookie. The first two MI games were really great, artistic works that played with a very restrictive game genre in ways that people had not yet seen. They also had a wonderful sense of intelligence behind them, as though there was someone there in the room with you, playing the game with you. There is a sense of interactivity, both playful and warped. You are literally there with Ron Gilbert as he hashes out childhood demons and contemplates the death of the adventure genre that he helped to create, as he plans to leave a sinking ship while he still can. Because he was so smart, he knew it was time to go. Now, if we are really lucky, he will finally get another crack at the game he always should have made, but couldn't because the world wouldn't let him. If Disney is smart, they will dump some cash in his lap and tell him to hire as many of the original dev team as he can and go with it. Or just return the rights to the game to him. More MI games without Ron Gilbert is just going to piss people off.
Nice read, mate. I just have to say one thing: Gilbert will never do it. The risks will be too high. An MI3a would be his Star Wars sequel trilogy, his Indiana Jones 4 (film), his 2nd Blade Runner. He needs to find a story that won't piss people off. Also times have changed and players with them. Ironically, the whole MI series pokes at nostalgia in a lot of ways so that will be hard too. And we should be honest here: Is Gilbert such a genius? I really don't care about all the other games he made oost LucasArts. I never found them interesting, I played some of them and they were simply boring. Maybe I'll give Thimbleweed Park a chance.
@@SisterRose I am very happy! And I'm also ok with being wrong. I do noticed though that my post upthere has a typo. I wanted to say that DISNEY never allow it. And I was sure about it because they were so anti Lucasarts for *years*. Never say never I guess. Not sure if I enjoy the new graphics style that you can see in the trailer but it's deffo better than the Tales... look.
@@Tototoo88 I thought it was good. It could have been better, but it checked most of the right boxes for me. The ending is left up to the imagination of the player in the world of Monkey Island, and it's played out as a pointless McGuffin in the "real world." It's a bit confusing, but it works. My main criticism is that there isn't enough freedom for the player, and there are too many loose ends and story elements that just don't go anywhere. It feels like they tried to make a much bigger game and couldn't cram it all in there. But that's really an overall minor issue to me because I had fun playing the game, and that's the most important thing to me
I am just showing the games to three of my friends, starting with the first one, talking them through some ideas behind this and that (without revealing any twists beforehand). Two are having fun for now, one is kind of feeling that this fun-pirate story with anachronistic tendencies ist sort of dull - "what is the point?" So I'm looking forward to the end of LeChucks Revenge. And if that won't catch the third friend, CoMI certainly will: that friend, weirdly, also loves Disney. So if it is whimsical enough, very cartoony and also has some singing in it, they are generally bought on that... There is a Monkey Island for everyone, guys! BUT looking at CoMI: Did you ever notice how this game doesn't know how much Cartoon it wants to be? Through the whole game, the characters' hands sometimes have four and sometimes have five fingers... almost like a symbol for the series slowly turning into a kids show, while being still a bit confused what it wants to be a that point. Look at the hands, you can see it even in this video!
I used to be eager for a final Monkey Island game by Ron Gilbert, but that changed when I played Thimbleweed Park. That game goes out of its way to insult not only the very conceit it's built on, but also the idea that I as a player might be attached to it. I lost any faith that Gilbert would write an even remotely satisfying ending to the series.
Something that you didn't mention is that Ron said that Guybrush isn't really a child in an amusement park. Which led many to believe that he's an adult in an amusement park who's just insane, Elaine is his psychiatrist he's in love with and Le Chuck is his brother who wants to help him return to reality and he perceives as a threat ("I'll send you to a new dimension of pain!"). Another one I remember is that some voodoo artifact they brought straight up turned the park real, in which Elaine is the owner, Le Chuck is an employee that plays the villain and his brother he gave tickets to for the opening is Guybrush, which is why he's a newcomer to this world. Good video though, you really put well what I like so much about MI2, and thinking about Curse trying so hard to distance itself from MI2, now reminds me of the Last Jedi/Rise of Skywalker situation, in which I also much pefer the former. It's interesting that even so, those MI games without Ron did a pretty good job save for Escape. What I'm trying to say is that Star Wars sucks ass and Monkey Island is the best franchise Lucas ever produced.
Curse is a fantastic game. I've played it more than 20 times already and never got tired of it. I also played the other titles more than once, but everything about it is just perfect.
I was sceptical when I started watching this video but you nailed the feeling of MI2 perfectly. While I don't want to overstretch the theme park analogy and would prefeer that this world is 'real', I always found the 2nd one incredibly mysterious: Big Whoop and the escape from LeChuck's wrath. There is something there that put the charming MI1 on a whole different level. This being said, I really liked MI3 because it has amazing atmosphere too. The comic style isn't for everybody but the locations are amazingly beautiful and also capture a lot of the more positive ideas about this charming pirate setting.
As far as I'm concerned, there is only MI 1 & 2. I could even do without 2 to be honest. The sense of magic and atmosphere in the original game is unparalleled. I've played through all the sequels, enjoyed them for what they were, but have little to no memory of them. Seeing imagery from this video only brought back vague memories.
We feel more connected to the games that made a bigger impact on us as kids. If you play Mi1 first and then MI2, the second won't ever be better to you. It may only be as good as the first. It happens with music. A U2 fan may say his favourite album is the first one, just because it is the one that fell on his hands first. Some younger people may say their favourite album is... whatever, the sixth. For me 1, 2 and 3 are equally good, and in fact the third is more inmersive and has a deeper personality because of the soundtrack, the voices and the detailed and rich art design. Actually I think the only weak point of MI3 and what invalidates it of being a perfect 10/10 point and click adventure is the ending, which is so weird and abrupt for budget and deadline issues. I don't have anything to say about the other games. MI4 was bad, visually atrocious at times, and the Telltale games... aparently they went from really bad to decently good. But I didn't have that much patience. I couldn't finnish the third chapter.
I always encourage people to play Curse first. That way they can just appreciate it as a fun game and then play the first two without the feelings of them being errata'd afterwards.
I saw Terminator 2 before Terminator 1- I loved it and always maintained it was a fantastic movie, and it is. But then I saw T-1 and my perspective changed, I realised how much I preferred it. It was impossible to go backwards. In many ways it's the same in my relationship with both Curse and Escape- which originally I tried to commit to replaying a few years before playing them all in order this year. What you like will always win out no matter the order. Experiences can be coloured by it, but what hits you will hit you regardless. I will not hide an experience from others in the hope it will make them share my opinion- especially not the people who just happen to prefer Curse. But I think it's very important, and this is the point a few comments are missing about this video, that we view the history of these things to see *why* that opinion may not always be shared.
@@BMask I played MI2 first, then MI1, so MI1 was like a fascinating "prequel" adventure that provided backstory to all the weirdness in MI2. MI2 is still my favourite.
@@BMask I think they can be appreciated for different reasons, which for me is easy to separate. T1 is a fantastic thriller where as T2 is probably the best action movie ever made. They don't fill the same space. Curse is fun and funny with charming presentation and more mass-appeal, while MI1 and MI2 are something different. Appreciated for their stories, characters, and place in gaming history. Overall I think Curse is a more inviting experience for modern gamers, especially since people are no longer growing up familiar with point and click adventures as a genre.
@@henrye5115 Very diplomatic answer but not quite getting at what I said. Your original point was the notion that playing Curse first would stop people from having any expectations and therefore appreciate it better, and before I got into the series I thought I was entirely on board with Curse and everything I'd seen of it so far. I'm the modern gamer demographic you're talking about, and I was worried I'd not see the benefit of the first two, but their quality was so apparent and surprising that this was never a barrier to entry, it was a new high i'd never experienced before. Conversely Curse, as it went on, offered me nothing particularly new or interesting- and had I played it before, I absolutely would have had the same opinion of it as a standalone experience, honestly even before I'd played the first two games. I recognise its qualities and what some see in it, but the truth is that it's not pulling in fans the way I think a lot of gatekeepers want to believe, and that has to be considered beyond 'you just don't get it, man.' Like you, I like both T1 and T2 in the example for those exact qualities, as mentioned I too love them both and the spaces they occupy, but one hits me in a way the other doesn't even though I saw them backwards, and that's what i'm interested in exploring with this series. Why does one affect me so much more even now, so many years after the discussion on them had long died, what's the magic ingredient that has me picking a side. Had I played them backwards, just going off of my experience with the games before I did full playthroughs and knowing myself pretty well, I still would have preferred the originals because when something you like hits you, it HITS you.
Your thoughts on the subtext of the first two games are quite engaging. They made me ponder about Gilbert, since I've recently played through Thimbleweed Park, and I think there are some common themes between it and MI 2 in particular.
@@Guruc13 the secret of monkey island is that the kid going on the ride would go on to become a game programer and create the first game. Good got, how self-important and masturbatorial that would have been. And considering how well it fits the lore and how unashamadely self-important and masturbatorial ron was with Thimbleweed, that seems like a SCARELY plausible scenario. If that was going to be the case, the MI3 not having been made back then was the series greatest blessing.
What do you think of the theory that Guybrush had some sort of horrific trauma as a child and his rich adoptive parents built a theme park with actors purely to keep him in a happy lucid state while he hallucinates?
I hated the MI2 ending when I was a kid but as an adult I get it now and it kinda explains the surreal atmosphere of the games I loved MI3. I think it even works as a standalone story and for me it removed the bitter taste of MI2
As soon as you started talking about exhausting dialogue options my first thought was the "Banang" gag, and you went right there! Loved that scene, and that game definitely had me exhausting everything to wring every last bit of dialogue out of it.
I started with MI3, and loved it. I went back to the previous two later, but I think I watched playthroughs online first. Anyway, the thing that strikes me as odd with the transition between 2 and 3 is that 3 follows up on 2's ending, whereas the intention seems to have been to... not do that? After the scene with Chuckie's eyes flashing, it cuts back to Elaine hoping LeChuck hasn't cast some horrible spell over Guybrush. That's *two* indicators that the scene with them as kids is an illusion. Three if you count Chuckie taking away your dialogue choice. The theme park ending is thematically appropriate, and yet they go out of their way to instantly invalidate it. It's kind of mind-boggling.
Mostly, as mentioned, for the sake of potential sequels regardless of whatever would happen to the franchise. But Ron had an ending in mind for a third game, and there's no indication that the discussion of what's really going on is truly over. It's just getting started. Until MI3 said 'lol nah' anyway
@@BMask I'm more interested in how he was intending to *start* a third game. MI3 had Guybrush "somehow" escaping the illusion with some minor memory loss and ending up at sea, and I wonder what Ron would have done differently, if he'd retcon the ending to 2 or something.
I believe Ron has said that he's start MI 3 where they left off - in the Carnival. If that doesn't get your hear swirling, I can't wait to see what 3 would have been
Great video, brought back a lot of great memories. My childhood best friend and I played both 1&2 when they were brand new on PC, and when we got to the ending of MI 2, we realized right away that the “Secret” of Monkey Island was that it was kids playing in a theme park the whole time. When we first played through SMI 1 we noticed that sometimes it felt like the game world itself was in a Disneyland type of place. Then we played MI 2 and when we got to the ending it all made sense. I miss those days.
Monkey Island 2 is by far and away the best of the series and up there with the greatest games of all time. The ending has left me in awe for years... I still like to ponder it every now and again.
Thank you for covering this series. I always knew about it and had a small appreciation for its impact on people but I never really knew anything about the series at all.
Excellent episode, very informative and entertaining. Having played mostly 1 and 2, I'm not sure if I didn't know about the theories around them, or I had forgotten them. Thank you!
Good video. Curse of Monkey Island is my childhood and I still think it's a great game. I played it before I played either of the originals, and I enjoyed it for what it was. I loved the lush settings, the music, the puzzles and, yes, the *funny* conversations with characters. I admit the ending falls flat, but the journey is worth it. A bit later in life, I played the first two games and appreciated them in a different way than I did Curse. They're so gleefully, sometimes disturbingly, irreverent (especially 2) that I *loved* them, even when I found the puzzles frustrating. I wouldn't say they hold a higher or lower place in my heart than Curse, but the absurdism of the 2 Gilbert games definitely appeals more to my adult brain than my kid brain, while the reverse is true about the (mostly) straightforward swashbuckling adventure/comedy of Curse. You are absolutely correct that Curse and all games that came after it fail to really pull off continuity with the first two games. I think of the post-Gilbert games as reboots by new creative teams rather than sequels, even if they try to be otherwise. And that's not a total defense of them: I haven't played Tales of Monkey Island at all, and I found Escape to be a real failure of inspiration - even though the creative team on Escape was clearly trying. So, I agree more than disagree with your take here. What I ultimately took from your video is there's probably no satisfying way to either end or continue the Monkey Island franchise. That's probably true. And, honestly, I think Ron Gilbert set it up that way. The ending of LeChuck's Revenge permanently breaks the narrative and you can neither retcon it convincingly, or keep the story going in such a broken state. It's like a toy monkey that punches its own wind-up mechanism out of its chest whenever you start it.
I had never seen the interview with Bill Tiller before, and it has blown my mind. The secret was just out there for 17 years, and I never saw it. You're the first TH-camr to reference it, as fast as I'm aware. Tiller's revelations--that the ending of MI2 was originally planned for MI1, that its implementation in MI2 was a last minute decision, and that it was hastily tweaked to allow for a sequel--are kind of heartbreaking. It lays bare the fact that Gilbert never had any grand vision for the games. He had an actual secret planned for The Secret of Monkey Island but allowed himself to be talked out if it. He used it as the twist in MI2 out of desperation, then chickened out and changed it so that no one had to seriously commit to it. There was clearly never going to be a Gilbert trilogy. He's full of shit. That was the secret this whole time.
That's a little bit of an uncharitable projection. Tiller had a vague idea of what Gilbert was planning, and it's consistent with the blocks of what we know, but the story is from second hand sources and is more illustrative of the attitude people moving forward had with what they were left with, which is why it was necessary to include. It's definitely difficult to get to the bottom of Gilbert's true thoughts, but if you piece together all the interviews and conversations out there, it's clear Gilbert was aiming for a theme park allegory since the start and wanted people to notice the clues (my quote about jokes not actually being jokes is a direct gilbert line). It wasn't about hastily or cowardly doing anything, it was about being realistic about a project he knew might not be in his hands, and getting at least aspark of his concept explicitly in there while he still had a say (from what i've heard, the caveats at the end still fit into his metaphorical take on the first two games.) It's very consistent with his decisions up to that point - again, if you play through enough of one and all of two, it is riddled with allusions to theme park imagery to the point where it's unavoidable, I was very explicit about a lot of them, I didn't assemble the swiss family robinson tree comparison for nothing haha Eventually, Tiller and Gilbert spoke about his plans many years later, in another interview that Tiller did. In that piece, he explained that they did in fact discuss Ron's idea, and he found it really funny and was hoping he got to make it happen. You can find that comment in this interview here : mixnmojo.com/features/interviews/Bill-Tiller-Chat-07/2
@@BMask Thanks for the reply and for the link, I'll definitely check it out. Yeah, maybe I overreacted a bit after I first read the Bill Tiller interview. Perhaps I shouldn't be that hard on Gilbert. It's not like I could have done better.
@@DirtiestDMusic It's okay, I understand the reaction, you're definitely not the only person who feels frustrated with just how difficult it's been to get a real answer, especially from Gilbert. I do think he has a rough plan however and have faith that at the very least it would be SUPER interesting to see pan out.
Yeah I mean if you think about it, the signs were always there pointing at B-Mask being one of those plastic carnival horses, all the REAL fans already figured that out months ago. New character design is trash though, sign my petition to get this hack fired
I found myself being inexplicably interested in what you had to say despite never playing any MI games...Even though I feel a bit bad that I lack proper context, I feel like this speaks a bit to the quality of ideas that you bring to the video. a lot of time editing, planning and speaking your mind was still worth it even when the cards are against you in my situation, and I think that's pretty cool. Don't be too down on yourself, cuz I'm glad to still stick around whether I have context or not. You still make 30 minutes feel like hardly 60 seconds, so thanks for that.
If you were a 13 yr old playing Curse for the first time and you managed to get to "A Pirate I was Meant to Be" believe me, it was legendary! Totally agree with you on the ending though. (I didn't get to the ending until much later in life).
I bought MI1 around when it came out in 1990ish - and played it in French. Because at the time my dad lived near Dover and we’d get the ferry to Calais. Picked up a Lucas arts compilation of games in a french supermarket thinking it would have multi-language support. Nope. So I had to, for example, do the sword fighting training section by a few hours of using a process of elimination to find the right responses. And then another chunk of time fighting the Sword Master. I think I finished it though.
I was only 9 when MI3 release, and my dad bought it for us to play. I remember how long we took to even leave the Le Chuck's ship. So, I literally grown up playing it. Out of the 5 games, it is the most beautiful one. And I guess you are right about everything, but... MI3 is so deeply carved on my own child memories and I love it so much that even now, at the age of 32, knowing everything, I can't avoid treasuring it. My interest on piracy culture was born with it and I'll always remember it as the greatest experience of my early gameing life. I also bought it on Steam really recently and it did lived up to my expectations on almost everything.
I really liked every MI except for Escape because I haven't played it; the graphics style is just so off-putting that I prefer pixelated graphics from the old days. My first and for years only MI has been MI3 and I still love to this day; I love the jokes and find them utterly humerous, I like the characters, and the locations and their atmosphere. Only many years later with the release of the Remastered collection I would play the first two games, chronologically and with the "modern" graphics so I probably made all the errors a "true fan" of MI would make them shake their heads. Anyways, I fell in love with MI1 and 2, too! Who says you can't love more than one thing? Maybe I didn't to any mistake by putting the cart before the horse because I can now enjoy three Monkey Island games (technically four, because of Tales, but I find them mechanically, on a gameplay level, unsatisfying). It's the music, the characters, the jokes and the atmosphere. I care little about the underlying interpreted meanings. I'm simple in that regard. I purely enjoy re-playing these three amazing games once a year.
I know I'm in the minority, but I always preferred Curse to MI2. I love both, but MI2 seemed a little off tonally and the ending, though thought provoking and open ended, was never very satisfying to me (kind of had the same feeling about Thimbleweed Park.) Curse had more of Secret's optimism and sense adventure. I also think the Blood Island section incorporates some of MI2's melancholy as well without the layer of cynicism to it.
I remember when Curse was released it was very well received and the only real critique I could find was from Ron Gilbert's camp saying Elaine shouldn't have fallen in love with Guybrush. Since that was a big part of the humor and basically defined their relationship I agree on that point of the issue, it was a big spun for the series and not an easy decision to make. On the other hand, after such a long hiatus a return to the old proven boy chases girl drama would be difficult considering adventure games were facing a sort of backslash from their many nonsensical iterations (I think that was the time around "Gramma looses her marbles" or some thing with their ever increasing obscure puzzles) so a more mainstream approach was needed. That also meant the humor lost its rawness, while in MI2 there appears they developed their own ideas (there's a part in the commentary section where one of them doesn't get the pants falling down joke) in Curse there is more evenness, no big surprises and no singular moment has the same ressonance as those on the previous 2 adventure games. But the puzzles side benefited enormously, other than the cave poker game that took me awhile to figure out, it didn't really cheat on the gamer, while MI2 made fun of you randomly and was never consistent between its "it's only a game" side and its darker aspects which took hold especially in the 2nd half, in Curse you never leave the pirate world, anachronistic, yes, but that's their brand of humor since the beginning. After all these years I think Curse did the right thing, it may be argued that it lost a bit of its soul to market pressure but of course if people isn't buying your product appealing to a wider audience is not only natural, it's survival instinct. All-around I think it might be the better of the series, well produced, great visuals and animation which hold better than early attempts at 3-D, difficulty levels, it is not such a big deviation to consider it a spinoff (by the same token MI2 could be one since it's darker, more serious and the ending isn't clear enough), great voice acting and clearer objectives.
Play the games as if MI2 is the last one. The Sequels, put then between MI1 and 2. Even the clothes makes sense. In Curse, he starts using a blouse on top of his shirt. In Tales, he uses a blue jacket. That looks more beat in MI2. AND, he grew a beard.
While i love your perspective on the matter i would have liked that you give a little bit of context behind the point and click genre and how the popularity and rivalry against sierra made the second monkey island different, going out of it's way to be unique and turn the convictions of the genre upside down even with cheeky reference of how sierra games where often very punishing and had points of no return (a.k.a. the phone booth gag) contrast this with the later games that had almost no competition (the 2 last entries were more of a love letter to the genre than anything else really) and very little interest in the public and that is how you get Monkey Island 2: LeChuck's Revenge. Otherwise great video.
Honestly, I wish I knew of this before making the video too. Sadly was too young and too disconnected from other fans/sources of information to know this was the case, so thank you for the input, makes a lot more sense knowing the context.
It’s hard to imagine what a sequel that followed Monkey 2 directly would be like. Are we done with the imaginary pirate setting for good and have to engage with Guybrush’s life as a child, or would they have some way to reinvoke that dreamworld again?
I can see how the theme park angle might be appealing, but I have to agree with Bill Tiller. I think part of it is that, for me, playing Monkey Island IS like going to a theme park, a genuinely THEMED, Disney-style park. It's a fun, entertaining little experience that immerses you in its world and its goofy story. So MI2's ending is kind like going on the Pirates of the Caribbean ride and having the operators stop it just before the end and say, "Yeah, but you guys know these are all just animatronics, right?" I mean, yeah, I do know that, but let me have my suspension of disbelief while the story lasts, huh?
I've always wondered how does Elaine fit into the MI2 ending! And then I discovered that when LeChuck says thet he is Guybrush's brother, he also mentions in one of the dialogue options that they have a sister... It all clicked for me at that moment. If Gubrush and LeChuck are brothers, could Elaine be their sister? Maybe they are two brothers and a sister playing in the Bg Whoop amusment park? It would explain why Ron Gilbert disliked the idea of Guybrush and Elaine marrying so much!
I started with three, and it'll always have a soft spot in my heart, but going back and playing the rest of the series the disconnect after Ron left is pretty apparent. I really didn't like all the retconning 3 and especially 4 shove in; and I'd love to see his idea for how the series would have continued, through it seems very unlikely that'll ever happen.
It was a different time dude. Back then the biggest twist known to mankind was empire strikes back and there wasn't so much weird crap around as nowadays. Back then this series was one of a kind and people were way less critical about plot inconcistensies and so on. Also the playing time seemed longer since MI2 came with 12 or 14 disks which you had to switch every screen ;)
Since you mentioned Empire, you know, I played MI2 before I ever watched Empire. Although I was aware before about Vader being Luke's father, I had no idea that the Chucky "brother" scene was based on Vader and Luke's dialogue, so I did a double-take when I watched the scene!
w h e n
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@Skylar Forest Begone bot.
Not even 2022. Never.
@@RenatusChristoph well, well, well…. it’s time to Return to Monkey Island and finally find the secret
@@AB_ATT Yes, I am looking forward to how they will actually frame this. You know - a secret is only a secret when it is not revealed... Or do you beg to differ? :)
"Game 1 feels like you're on the ride, and 2 feels like you snuck behind the scenes'
Thats the best way I've heard it described. Now Return feels like returning with your kid, and telling them about the fun you had there as a kid
"Monkey Island 2"'s tragedy is the commodification of child imagination during the transition from the real-feeling world in the beginning to the fake theme park at the end. A child's imagination is truthful in the mind of the kid, but the industrial theme park is manufactured and only a pale shadow. Still IMHO the best representation of childhood wonder on any medium.
Monkey Island 2 has a few more clues about Guybrush & Chucky's past:
-When you try to take a bone from the skeleton of Guybrush's mom, to make the voodoo doll, Guybrush will instead take one from his dad. So this only proves that the person Guybrush calls Dad is related to Chucky, not necessarily to Guybrush as well.
Otherwise, you should've been able to take a bone from either skeleton. I mean this is a game that did NOT shy away from programming in a ton of optional actions.
-When you examine the quill inventory item Guybrush says "Just like the pen from Mom & Dad's wedding!"
How would he remember his parents' wedding? ....unless his mother (re-)married after he was already born...
This, coupled with the "orphanage" comment by LeChuck makes me believe that his real parents really DID abandon him as a baby, left him at an orphanage, where he then was adopted by his new Mom, who then married his new Dad, which brought Chucky into his life as his new stepbrother. Maybe his biological parents really did die after that, which would explain them being skeletons.
The real secret of Monkey Island was the friends we made along the way.
Oooooo
XD, but also rather true! The colorful collection of characters really was fantastic.
Yes! And, like, the secret of the ghost pirates living in a lava and mushroom-filled hellscape underneath the island.
:’)
Can I get extra cheese 🧀 with that please
"we'll surely avoid scurvy if we all eat an orange!"
Nobody reply to this
I'll just leave this here in case anyone else gets any ideas
@@GamergalDS HAHAHAHAA
Ohh I guess that's the song over then...
Geez i kinda feel bad now...
Also, I am rubber, you are glue.
You started with 4?? That's rough buddy.
It's like starting the Tomb Raider series with Angel of Darkness. Shouldn't happen to anyone.
@Hermes I did too. I was very young, though. Like eleven. The jokes landed because I was convinced that anything referencing grown up stuff out of my grasp was funny. That's what happens when you teach yourself to laugh at postmodernism when you're way too young to comprehend the humour. I played MI 1-3 after when I found that CMI with the "Monkey Island Madness" CD-ROM of the first two. The big white edged box. Since then I've interpreted the series as being two different game series in one with CMI being a sort of reboot, and I was about twelve when I got that.
Shouts out to the SCUMM Bar website too. Loved reading that back then.
Not really. He even mentions he likes it the first time he played it.
I started with 4 as well. I liked it a lot when I was little. Even as a 9 year old or so, I would then go on the internet and.. **clears throat** PIRATE the other three. And while I obviously think the other 3 are superior, 4 still has a place in my heart. Something about its depiction of the world captivated me, though I can't quite place what. My biggest gripe with it, both as a child and as a 23 year old dude, is that fucking Monkey Kombat. I swear to God it's so annoying, and time consuming.
Maybe he wasn't born yet in the early 90's?
Even as a kid playing MI1, I had a vague understanding of how the special effect was done on Stan's jacket. It looked cool back then. On the 3D versions though it looks like he's floating in the fucking matrix!
"I've gotten used to most point-and-clicks maxing-out hard on dialogue-trees and combination-puzzles bordering on ridiculous"
Original Discworld, anyone?
Oh boy. Oh boy.
For me, though, the endless dialogue is redeemed by cast. Eric Idle, Tony Robinson, Rob Brydon, Kate Robbins, and my fav John Pertwee. It must have been one of Pertwee's last ever gigs. I can't get enough of his Chucky Chucky Chucky.
The limited cast actually is a source of humour for me. It reminds of point and clicks in the pre-voice era, when me and my friends/relations would voice the dialogue, each taking a different character. Obviously, there'd only ever be three or four of us at a time, not that different to the size of the Discworld cast.
And I loved it when Rob Brydon did some of Rincewind's lines!
But yeah, without loving the cast and hearing them have fun with the dialogue, I'd never have tolerated it.
I only played number 2, but I heard some of the puzzles in number 1 were ridiculous lol
As a long time MI fan, 12 seconds and I am already enraged.
Man teenaged me keeps making enemies huh
@@BMask yup great video though 👌
@@LordsSky aww cheers haha
This video really hits the feels! Whenever I remember MI1, it's all about wonder, joy, adventure, discovery! In fact, I can say most of my videogame playing life has been trying to get that feeling again. But MI2 it's just... Sadness, melancholy, a deep longing for don't-know-what. Even seeing that ending again just feels me with sadness. It's just weird. My guess is that the "secret" is not that it was all a dream, but at the same time it was a kid playing around. Ask a kid playing super-heroes, and they'll tell you they are not playing, they ARE the super-hero. They are seeing the world one way while adults see it another way, and both are correct.
Monkey Island 2 is my favorite of the series. Really love the characters, the way Guybrush developed. Monkey 1 Guybrush was me as a teen, Monkey 2 Guybrush is me at 30. Very relateable character.
I hope your criminal record wasn't as long as his.
@@Ometecuhtli mine might be 😂
OG Monkey Island gamer here.
I fell in love with it when it was released in the early 90s.
When I was a child in the late 70s and 80s, I played a lot of the graphical text adventures which were the great grandparents of the point and click adventure genre. I witnessed first hand where MI came from, and that perspective is lost when you jump into it from some future point in time, outside of the intended time in which it was designed to be played.
Monkey Island was great because it was such a refreshing departure from what had become a stodgy mash of adventure tropes that had frustrated gamers like me for decades.
The thing is, before Monkey Island, I didn't necessarily know that there *could* be an adventure game which would never put you into a game breaking, unwinnable state. This was just an accepted part of pre-MI adventure gaming.
Another example: when you solve the puzzle of having to navigate through the maze to get to the Sword Master's house, the game doesn't make you walk back, nor does it make you walk through the maze on subsequent visits. That seems obvious to us now in 2022, but in the early 90s that was a refreshing revelation..."you mean I don't have to do it again and again?" The genius of Ron Gilbert's game design is that he took out a lot of these long standing mechanics of adventure games that made them tedious, frustrating and monotonous to play. And at the same time, he poked fun at the contemporary rivals (Sierra) which started making adventure games in the very early 80s but never evolved much beyond making their graphics better. Until the end, Sierra's puzzles remained frustratingly rooted in the "kill the player randomly for exploring/player can create an unwinnable game state/moon logic puzzles".
I also agree that MI:2 had a completely different tone and feel to MI. I played it also at the time it was released. It simply didn't have the same industry shaking impact that the original did.
I'm very interested to play the brand new Gilbert-made "Return to Monkey Island" to see whether his third have recaptures the magic of the first, the melancholy of the second, or is something totally new.
Did you play through Return in the end?
At one point In Monkey Island, Guybrush gets a dialogue option to ask the lookout if it is possible they're all just fictional characters in a novel. That always stuck with me... like they were trying to tell us something from the get go.
Can't wait to watch this later. B-mask cemented himself as my boy with the sly series. Such slick presentation.
I'm hoping for a Sly 4 review
Man your video was amazing. And yes. The intended message reached me. There is some kind of magic in a theme park. BUT time dilates ideas. It's really hard to see something perdure so much in time and not bear any damage. This not only happened to MI, but its a very clear example.
was about to rage at you for not *getting* monkey island 2 but you were just being a cheeky git
That ending gave me chills up and down my spine.
Monkey Island was my first point 'n' click: I watched my friend's dad play it on their PC (I think.)
I played 2 on the Mac, and literally remember nothing about it other than the library card catalog, the beginning, and that ending.
Never even played 3, 4 or 5.
Replayed 1 again last year and it blew me away with its wit, humor and charm. I've considered myself a super fan of this series forever, even though I had legitimately played only one of the games.
Now I'm looking forward to Ron Gilbert's Return to Monkey Island more than any game since Phantasy Star 1, and still consider myself a super fan.
Played through all of the Monkey Island games for the first time this week, after staving them off for years. Your experience and impressions of each of them are so similar to my own. This video was practically therapeutic. Subscribed, thanks so much for making this.
I love it but am tortured by the phenomena of a series dropping something so cerebral and serious right in the middle and never quite finding that footing again, often because a real auteur gets in the middle of the corporate, safe choices made to establish it or recover from said auteur. As the fan you are left with an open mystery that is really invigorating but somehow kind of traumatic and, as you put it, sad.
This series in particular, in that it’s about a “ride” took me into a very narrow and dark corridor of thinking for all of its fun reputation.
So many years after everyone I suppose processed this Monkey Island business, I’m glad I’m not the only one heaping this series onto the list of 2020 to-dos.
As someone whose always had Monkey Island on my list to get to but kept putting it off, this thoroughly convinced me to get to it sooner than I would have otherwise.
Also, I always find it challenging to give a critical eye to comedy-centric things I love, so as always I’m impressed at the level of dissection that explains the appeal without actively undermining it or underselling/overselling it. Good work. Proud of u.
Follow me back on Twitter.
@@masonselsing4080 aren't you the famous Mason Twitter man?
You bet!
All 35 of my followers worship me 😎
bet you didn't think we'd be getting actual monkey island 3a 2 years after making this
Very insightful video and being in my mid 30's every clip of every game was like a sunlit stroll down memory lane, lovely.
Very insightful video on one of my favorite game series. Ron Gilbert still wants to make his Monkey Island 3, but sadly Disney refuses to sell the license, even if they're doing nothing with it.
Gilbert's Guybrush is a mysterious and deeply troubled hero that your can't wait to watch and help progress through his quest. Like Star Wars, like Indiana Jones; iconically Lucasfilm. You uncover bits of the mystery as you go, including the mystery and hilariousness of Guy, and you can't wait to peel another layer off and take a peak. We never learn what's haunting Gilbert's Guybrush or why, but by the end of MI2 there's no doubt he's fallen hard, and might have gone too far with voodoo spells. There was a plan for this characters arc, and what we got in curse, as summarized *perfectly* in this video, was a "wacky pirate romp". Perfectly fine, but not MI3.
The art in Curse was incredible, but the humor hit wrong for me because the formerly deep, developed characters were saccharine, flat and soul-less. Without the mystery or depth, I remember wondering when I was 12, if Curse was written for much younger kids. I'm glad so many commenters loved it, but just understand why some of us refuse to accept 3, 4, 5 as the same world, it's because they're just games. Guybrush is gone and there's no deeper story, just a mug with a hole in the bottom.
This was a fantastic video about a series i care deeply for. Keep up the fantastic work, have a good day and don't falter.
Hey man, with all these 'fish people' memes as of late, I feel like a mind-blowing vid is coming around the corner about them
MI 1-3 are still favorites of mine. And admittedly the inclusion of it in the lore of Sea of Thieves, as in the Pirate’s Life you can find journals from Kate Capsize detailing how LeChuck and Threepwood had made their way into the Sea of Thieves and how she is still seeking revenge for framing her, has rekindled my interest. Honestly I am now just hoping that whatever “continuation” it could see would be jumpstarted by a Sea of Thieves expansion.
I have good news. And better news, other then the end of chapter 3, it’s great
Had a rough day today, seeing the notification for this made this day a 1000x better. I love your overall execution of these videos and puts a better perspective on some of my favorite series. It’s also so fantastic to hear someone’s opinion so close to mine about some of my favorite games and series.(Sly, MI, Sandiago, Sam and Max, etc... Either way, Thank you for making my day and being my favorite content creator. (P.S.: Plan on supporting you on Patreon when I get my next paycheck)
This is a really excellent video. I've only ever played the first two Monkey Islands, partly because the sequels weren't as readily accessible, and partly because I felt wholly satisfied by the ending of Monkey Island 2. You absolutely hit the nail on the head re: the melancholy feel of Monkey Island 2, though my lack of familiarity with theme park imagery and mentality didn't allow to pick up on the more subtle flourishes you expertly articulated here. The analogy of it being a game set "behind the scenes" is very apt.
The playful relationship both games have to reality has always felt refreshingly honest about how childlike imagination actually works: so often media presents kids' imaginary play as a delusion, a total break from reality, but in actuality, the illusion is conscious and willingly maintained: kids don't actually believe they're pirates searching for the lost treasure of Monkey Island, they know they're just pretending but that doesn't mean we can't still have fun and *believe* in it while we're here. Monkey Island 2, to me, has always felt like a game set at the end of summer, when everyone else is a bit bored of the pirate game, less willing to play along and put up with the kid at the centre of attention until eventually, the willing suspension of disbelief breaks, and we're left back in reality, but still with inklings of that old imaginary adventure dancing around at the edge, waiting for the next time people want to play Pirates again.
I'm rambling now, but it's just been great to relive my love of these games through this video. Monkey Island 2 is probably my favourite point-and-click adventure game of all time, and I think I forgot that until now.
I think this might actually be my favourite video of yours, and that's saying a great deal considering how much I love your output, generally. Well Done!!!!!
Just wanted to say you got me into so many new things due to your videos. And made me think about my games in different ways. You even made me think about the Fantastic 4 in new and interesting ways. Nothing related to the current video, just wanted to say thanks for all the great content!
That was utterly amazing. I’d forgotten how much i loved 1&2 as a kid. Thank you so much for this.
Finally someone who really gets it! That‘s exactly what Monkey Island is about. It’s not just some silly pirate story… It’s much more than that. Weirder, darker, though-provoking…
I’m so excited about Ron Gilbert finally making his version of Monkey 3.
If it goes the way it should be going, it will be a masterpiece.
I’m sure a lot of people will hate it, but that’s ok, because it will be something unique, what Gilbert truly wanted to tell.
And I can’t wait to play it!
MI2 feels like gradually waking from a dream. Memories of real life start to seep through, feeling as if they don’t belong.
Well, looks like we're now finally going too learn what Gilbert wanted to do with the series. Colour me intrigued.
The announcement of Return was what really got me to replay the first two Monkey Island Games, but this video is definitely what started me really wanting to give MI2 another chance. The ending really didn't work for me the first time, but hearing your defense of it helped me appreciate it much more on the second playthrough. I had also completely forgotten what was at the top of the elevator by the time I reached it, so seeing it hit so much harder knowing what was coming.
As an old fart who actually played MI1 and MI2 at times of their release, I must say that anything beyond MI2 didn't really gel with me. MI always had this underlying of darkness and surreal insanity beneath the surface, delightfully goosebumps-inducing, further exemplified with the infamous MI2 ending which back in the day I've found genuinely disturbing but also fascinating. Will the story continue? CAN the story continue? Will it even be a pirate story anymore?
Then Gilbertless MI3 and other sequels followed and the series morphed into a wacky pirate romp. No more mystery, no more insanity, no more darkness, just silly cartoony fun. I did play them all but... no goosebumps. :(
MI3, 4, and Tales are great simply because they introduced everyone to the series. MI1 and 2 probably would have no where near this following and appreciation if the three never followed. Having said that, while they may be worse than 1+2, they are still amazing games in their own right.
Same here. Afaict it's also next to impossible to - purely in retrospect - recognize/appreciate the unparalleled atmosphere and immersion the first two installments provided. At the time there essentially was nothing as intriguing and 'vacation-like' as playing MI1/2 in all of (i.e. even non-interactive) digital media...
correct.
Yes. Same feeling for me.
Interesting, because I agree that that’s a major element of the series but I felt Curse and especially Tales did incorporate that discomforting undertone.
This video is very well done. It's a hallmark B-Mask video, talking about older video games, theme parks, childhood, and legacies (the one I'd probably recommend to my friends if I'd want to introduce them to B). My biggest recommendation would be to elaborate on the purple feeling within the second game and the empty opportunities. I think the best phrase for describing your attraction to the second game is "morbid curiosity". An argument for the idea that not all games have to be fun and happy to be worthwhile. There's something engaging about watching something, at one point full of life, decay and fall apart. You talk about the second game being a bit like growing up and becoming disillusioned, which I can agree with, but I think the idea that this realization is tragic is a bit disingenuous. Sure, sometimes we wish we could be a kid again, but sometimes we don't. While anybody is allowed to like any game they want, I think a theoretical third game elaborating on this "inside a pirate theme park" would have been grand.
Another fantastic vid! I have yet to see a video of yours that doesn't have me wholeheartedly appreciating the nuance of something I've not yet taken the time to explore. Plus, I like how you deliver the comedic bits of your scripts.
Keep making these awesome videos about whatever catches your fancy! I enjoy the hell outta them.
I know it’s an older video and this is going to sound corny but I just wanted to say that your content is above and beyond man. Whenever I’m working on a long project I put on your sly cooper video essays and it helps keep me motivated and inspires me to put in the same level of high quality work you put in with yours. Thanks for always putting a smile on my face with that fish people gag too :)
This exactly why Shigesato Itoi, the writer for the Earthbound series or known in the native Japanese release as ‘Mother’ stopped with Mother 3, the final game in the series.
After that whatever goes on behind the scenes decided not to continue it as that's the end, the 3rd game of Mother is a unique experience.
I’ve always thought at the end of MI:2, when Guybrush falls deeper into the hole (after hanging off the rope with Big Whoop) the treasure chest shattered and the power contained within does a number on Guybrush, throwing him into some wonky pocket dimension where Le Chuck has some degree of power.
All the anachronistic bits before that always struck me as silly 4th wall breaking humor, playing into the Pirates of the Caribbean tone.
I have to agree the second game is more moody and melancholy; the music (Waterfall theme, the Tunnel theme, Phatt Island) is far more mellow and downbeat, with a few excellent exceptions (Capsize Charters).
All in all a great game (just finished it again, so was on the lookout for videos about it), and tho a downbeat sequel its my favorite in the series.
Thanks for the retrospective, always good to hear what other ppl think about these classics.
Yeah, still to this day I would say that the ending of MI2 is basically LeChuck being successful with his revenge. An MI3a could very well deal with this and use the idea one of the Tales episodes had: What if LeChuck and Guybrush were on friendly terms? But also I'd love to see some more mythology on Big Whoop as the biggest treasure that is a portal into another world and stuff.
@@SisterRose Yeah even the name of the treasure is absurd, but I liked the world-building of this being more than simply a hoard of gold and jewels, more a source of power. It was handled… ok in MI3, but it sounds like Gilbert and Co. had an idea for their MI3, and now we’re getting it. Can’t wait.
Sick analysis bro really scratched an itch i've had since finishing MI2 (my millenial brain loves Tales the most tho)
Excellent retrospective. You really hit the nail on the head how you broke down that the games after 1 and 2 lack subtext. 1 and 2 have such a eerie mysterious quality that the series lost when it became more cartoony and literal with its story.
With Monkey Island, I would say I prefer the setting being 'real'. The anachronisms in Monkey Island, while odd and quirky, I'd argue the setting can easily be interpreted as some vaguely steampunk conworld, like a sillier version of Dishonored (ok, new headcanon: They take place in the same universe). This is a world with lots of islands, a huge piracy problem, and some schizo tech.
The dark and cynical nature of the setting, particularly as it grew, I'd argue can also be interpreted as an extension of two core themes: Pirates and Voodoo. The supernatural forces of the world are not necessarily evil, but they're generally quite spooky. Similarly, the most visible humans are pirates, which are greedy, amoral, and not overly intelligent. Corporations aren't too far from that and fit in perfectly with the pirates.
I'm not saying the theme park idea is...the worst idea ever, but I'm just saying there's merit to the other interpretation.
The problem is that Pirates/Voodoo are aesthetics, not emotions. If you go for getting into world-building and lore crafting then that stuff matters, but it's so niche that most people don't have anything to hang onto unless the writing is really, REALLY good. Even then, it is what it is, a fun time waster. We could go on forever and eventually those who can't take any more will drop out. I could play sea of thieves or ghost vooju juju island or zack and wiki or etc etc
But if it's a theme park from a child's POV? The reveal that this is actually a broad discussion of the human condition that most can truly relate to? Neat. Now i'm interested. Now we have somewhere to go. What do you want to tell me about my childhood, mr video game? I'm all ears.
reject human condition
embrace monke island
It's already fictional though, what does it matter if it's doubly fictional
@@AtticKnight Exactly. I have a feeling MI3a would take this idea further and go for broke, turning everything around to the player and say, "Look, video games can be fun, witty, cool and erudite uses of your times, but they're also fictional fabrications, momentary shadowplay theatre illusions, and you should go out and experience the outside world too, in all its glorious, hideous, harrowing wonder! Also, buy more grog!" B) ;)
B- Mask well its all down to what you like. It’s like Indiana Jones. Some just like to go along the ride. Some like inception. Different movies. Different agendas. Both as memorable in their own way.
And if it’s a fun time waster. That is your opinion. Not all need to be deep and mysterious to create emotions. Far from.
disney needs to let ron gilbert make mi3
@smylexx Monkey Island is like any relic in that warehouse that appears in the first and fourth Indiana Jones movies. Disney got a ton of franchises and brands that are useless for them and they will be resting in dusty piled boxes in some huge warehouse forever. Nobody will ever make MI see the daylight again.
@@Davidman3976 how does it feel to be wrong
A question for the author of this video. Are you excited for RoN Gilbert's Return to Monkey Island or do you feel that it is too much? I'm personally hyped for the MI2 real conclusion very much! I agree, that MI2 feeels somehow sad and melancholic and the mysterious, bitter-sweet ending just reinforces these feelings. I'm very curious to see how Ron Gilbert will follow it up...
This was interesting to watch because it's the first time I've heard an in-depth assessment of MI from someone who didn't play them as they were released. From my perspective, the first two games were the only real MI games. I played (and most others who liked MI played) Curse because it's all we had. I wanted more, and I knew that Lucasarts was still in charge, so it was the next best thing to a *real* MI game.
Don't get me wrong, your assessment is spot-on, but nothing surprising. It's a good summation of what most, if not all, MI fans went through with the series.
Perhaps the one less-oft talked about point that you touched on it the sad tone of MI2. Despite the popularity of the game, I think the tone of the game echoed the imminent fate of adventure games in general. The fact that a *real* MI3 never got produced is closely linked to the fate of Indiana Jones and the Iron Phoenix. Yes, I know the official reason was that Germany wouldn't release it, but it says a lot that they thought they couldn't recoup costs on an Indiana Jones title in the US alone.
Ron Gilbert is a smart cookie. The first two MI games were really great, artistic works that played with a very restrictive game genre in ways that people had not yet seen. They also had a wonderful sense of intelligence behind them, as though there was someone there in the room with you, playing the game with you. There is a sense of interactivity, both playful and warped. You are literally there with Ron Gilbert as he hashes out childhood demons and contemplates the death of the adventure genre that he helped to create, as he plans to leave a sinking ship while he still can. Because he was so smart, he knew it was time to go. Now, if we are really lucky, he will finally get another crack at the game he always should have made, but couldn't because the world wouldn't let him. If Disney is smart, they will dump some cash in his lap and tell him to hire as many of the original dev team as he can and go with it. Or just return the rights to the game to him. More MI games without Ron Gilbert is just going to piss people off.
Nice read, mate. I just have to say one thing: Gilbert will never do it. The risks will be too high. An MI3a would be his Star Wars sequel trilogy, his Indiana Jones 4 (film), his 2nd Blade Runner. He needs to find a story that won't piss people off. Also times have changed and players with them. Ironically, the whole MI series pokes at nostalgia in a lot of ways so that will be hard too. And we should be honest here: Is Gilbert such a genius? I really don't care about all the other games he made oost LucasArts. I never found them interesting, I played some of them and they were simply boring. Maybe I'll give Thimbleweed Park a chance.
@@SisterRose I am very happy! And I'm also ok with being wrong. I do noticed though that my post upthere has a typo. I wanted to say that DISNEY never allow it. And I was sure about it because they were so anti Lucasarts for *years*. Never say never I guess.
Not sure if I enjoy the new graphics style that you can see in the trailer but it's deffo better than the Tales... look.
Have you played Return To Money Island yet? If so, what did you think of it? I just finished it and have mixed thoughts.
@@Tototoo88 I thought it was good. It could have been better, but it checked most of the right boxes for me. The ending is left up to the imagination of the player in the world of Monkey Island, and it's played out as a pointless McGuffin in the "real world." It's a bit confusing, but it works. My main criticism is that there isn't enough freedom for the player, and there are too many loose ends and story elements that just don't go anywhere. It feels like they tried to make a much bigger game and couldn't cram it all in there. But that's really an overall minor issue to me because I had fun playing the game, and that's the most important thing to me
I am just showing the games to three of my friends, starting with the first one, talking them through some ideas behind this and that (without revealing any twists beforehand). Two are having fun for now, one is kind of feeling that this fun-pirate story with anachronistic tendencies ist sort of dull - "what is the point?"
So I'm looking forward to the end of LeChucks Revenge. And if that won't catch the third friend, CoMI certainly will: that friend, weirdly, also loves Disney. So if it is whimsical enough, very cartoony and also has some singing in it, they are generally bought on that... There is a Monkey Island for everyone, guys!
BUT looking at CoMI:
Did you ever notice how this game doesn't know how much Cartoon it wants to be?
Through the whole game, the characters' hands sometimes have four and sometimes have five fingers... almost like a symbol for the series slowly turning into a kids show, while being still a bit confused what it wants to be a that point.
Look at the hands, you can see it even in this video!
I used to be eager for a final Monkey Island game by Ron Gilbert, but that changed when I played Thimbleweed Park. That game goes out of its way to insult not only the very conceit it's built on, but also the idea that I as a player might be attached to it. I lost any faith that Gilbert would write an even remotely satisfying ending to the series.
I agree completely. I returned Thimbleweed Park after playing it for just a few hours. Way too ironic with very little "heart".
Really? I have that game in my wishlist for the switch exactly for the reason that it was made by Ron Gilbert. Why is so bad mate?
@@MiguelXisto1 Any explanation would completely spoil the story.
I agree, but I wonder if Ron would have written such a hamfisted, frustrating ending if he had made MI3 right after MI2.
JINX COMMENT YOU SPOKE IT INTO EXISTENCE.
Something that you didn't mention is that Ron said that Guybrush isn't really a child in an amusement park.
Which led many to believe that he's an adult in an amusement park who's just insane, Elaine is his psychiatrist he's in love with and Le Chuck is his brother who wants to help him return to reality and he perceives as a threat ("I'll send you to a new dimension of pain!").
Another one I remember is that some voodoo artifact they brought straight up turned the park real, in which Elaine is the owner, Le Chuck is an employee that plays the villain and his brother he gave tickets to for the opening is Guybrush, which is why he's a newcomer to this world.
Good video though, you really put well what I like so much about MI2, and thinking about Curse trying so hard to distance itself from MI2, now reminds me of the Last Jedi/Rise of Skywalker situation, in which I also much pefer the former. It's interesting that even so, those MI games without Ron did a pretty good job save for Escape.
What I'm trying to say is that Star Wars sucks ass and Monkey Island is the best franchise Lucas ever produced.
You know, I agree with you on that!
And yes, fuck yes, thank you for those readings of Monkey Island 2/3, I love hearing theories about this shit ugh!
Curse is a fantastic game. I've played it more than 20 times already and never got tired of it. I also played the other titles more than once, but everything about it is just perfect.
I was sceptical when I started watching this video but you nailed the feeling of MI2 perfectly. While I don't want to overstretch the theme park analogy and would prefeer that this world is 'real', I always found the 2nd one incredibly mysterious: Big Whoop and the escape from LeChuck's wrath. There is something there that put the charming MI1 on a whole different level.
This being said, I really liked MI3 because it has amazing atmosphere too. The comic style isn't for everybody but the locations are amazingly beautiful and also capture a lot of the more positive ideas about this charming pirate setting.
As far as I'm concerned, there is only MI 1 & 2. I could even do without 2 to be honest.
The sense of magic and atmosphere in the original game is unparalleled.
I've played through all the sequels, enjoyed them for what they were, but have little to no memory of them. Seeing imagery from this video only brought back vague memories.
We feel more connected to the games that made a bigger impact on us as kids. If you play Mi1 first and then MI2, the second won't ever be better to you. It may only be as good as the first. It happens with music. A U2 fan may say his favourite album is the first one, just because it is the one that fell on his hands first. Some younger people may say their favourite album is... whatever, the sixth.
For me 1, 2 and 3 are equally good, and in fact the third is more inmersive and has a deeper personality because of the soundtrack, the voices and the detailed and rich art design. Actually I think the only weak point of MI3 and what invalidates it of being a perfect 10/10 point and click adventure is the ending, which is so weird and abrupt for budget and deadline issues.
I don't have anything to say about the other games. MI4 was bad, visually atrocious at times, and the Telltale games... aparently they went from really bad to decently good. But I didn't have that much patience. I couldn't finnish the third chapter.
I played MI 1 & 2 when I was a kid, but 2 is the clear favourite for me. I remember being so terrified at the ending, waiting for Lechuck to show up.
Finally getting onboard the ship (can’t recall its name) was one of the most thrilling experiences as a kid. MI 1 for life
I always encourage people to play Curse first. That way they can just appreciate it as a fun game and then play the first two without the feelings of them being errata'd afterwards.
I saw Terminator 2 before Terminator 1- I loved it and always maintained it was a fantastic movie, and it is. But then I saw T-1 and my perspective changed, I realised how much I preferred it. It was impossible to go backwards. In many ways it's the same in my relationship with both Curse and Escape- which originally I tried to commit to replaying a few years before playing them all in order this year.
What you like will always win out no matter the order. Experiences can be coloured by it, but what hits you will hit you regardless. I will not hide an experience from others in the hope it will make them share my opinion- especially not the people who just happen to prefer Curse. But I think it's very important, and this is the point a few comments are missing about this video, that we view the history of these things to see *why* that opinion may not always be shared.
@@BMask I played MI2 first, then MI1, so MI1 was like a fascinating "prequel" adventure that provided backstory to all the weirdness in MI2. MI2 is still my favourite.
@@BMask I think they can be appreciated for different reasons, which for me is easy to separate. T1 is a fantastic thriller where as T2 is probably the best action movie ever made. They don't fill the same space. Curse is fun and funny with charming presentation and more mass-appeal, while MI1 and MI2 are something different. Appreciated for their stories, characters, and place in gaming history. Overall I think Curse is a more inviting experience for modern gamers, especially since people are no longer growing up familiar with point and click adventures as a genre.
@@henrye5115 Very diplomatic answer but not quite getting at what I said.
Your original point was the notion that playing Curse first would stop people from having any expectations and therefore appreciate it better, and before I got into the series I thought I was entirely on board with Curse and everything I'd seen of it so far. I'm the modern gamer demographic you're talking about, and I was worried I'd not see the benefit of the first two, but their quality was so apparent and surprising that this was never a barrier to entry, it was a new high i'd never experienced before. Conversely Curse, as it went on, offered me nothing particularly new or interesting- and had I played it before, I absolutely would have had the same opinion of it as a standalone experience, honestly even before I'd played the first two games. I recognise its qualities and what some see in it, but the truth is that it's not pulling in fans the way I think a lot of gatekeepers want to believe, and that has to be considered beyond 'you just don't get it, man.'
Like you, I like both T1 and T2 in the example for those exact qualities, as mentioned I too love them both and the spaces they occupy, but one hits me in a way the other doesn't even though I saw them backwards, and that's what i'm interested in exploring with this series. Why does one affect me so much more even now, so many years after the discussion on them had long died, what's the magic ingredient that has me picking a side. Had I played them backwards, just going off of my experience with the games before I did full playthroughs and knowing myself pretty well, I still would have preferred the originals because when something you like hits you, it HITS you.
Thank you so much for creating content about this legendary series. Love those games with whole my soul. Love your videos as well.
Your thoughts on the subtext of the first two games are quite engaging. They made me ponder about Gilbert, since I've recently played through Thimbleweed Park, and I think there are some common themes between it and MI 2 in particular.
In a lot of ways, it makes me wonder if TP's ending was close to how MI 3 would end... And I'm not sure how I would feel about that
@@Guruc13 the secret of monkey island is that the kid going on the ride would go on to become a game programer and create the first game. Good got, how self-important and masturbatorial that would have been. And considering how well it fits the lore and how unashamadely self-important and masturbatorial ron was with Thimbleweed, that seems like a SCARELY plausible scenario. If that was going to be the case, the MI3 not having been made back then was the series greatest blessing.
The secret of monkey island is the directions to toilet
Damn, why do you have to ruin my immersion in my favorite world by reminding me that it's about immersion being ruined. I'm so sad now. Great video.
What do you think of the theory that Guybrush had some sort of horrific trauma as a child and his rich adoptive parents built a theme park with actors purely to keep him in a happy lucid state while he hallucinates?
Cool theory!
I don't really buy it though
It would just be PLvAA except weirder
I hated the MI2 ending when I was a kid but as an adult I get it now and it kinda explains the surreal atmosphere of the games
I loved MI3. I think it even works as a standalone story and for me it removed the bitter taste of MI2
So I be like "oh new B-Mask video" while in my gmail and then I clicked on it and audibly gasped because it was about Monkey Island
IT'S HAPPENING.
RON'S MONKEY ISLAND 3 IS FINALLY HAPPENING.
RETURN TO MONKEY ISLAND, LET'S GOOOOOOOO.
This is probably my favorite video essay channel.
mine too
As soon as you started talking about exhausting dialogue options my first thought was the "Banang" gag, and you went right there! Loved that scene, and that game definitely had me exhausting everything to wring every last bit of dialogue out of it.
I started with MI3, and loved it. I went back to the previous two later, but I think I watched playthroughs online first.
Anyway, the thing that strikes me as odd with the transition between 2 and 3 is that 3 follows up on 2's ending, whereas the intention seems to have been to... not do that?
After the scene with Chuckie's eyes flashing, it cuts back to Elaine hoping LeChuck hasn't cast some horrible spell over Guybrush.
That's *two* indicators that the scene with them as kids is an illusion. Three if you count Chuckie taking away your dialogue choice.
The theme park ending is thematically appropriate, and yet they go out of their way to instantly invalidate it. It's kind of mind-boggling.
Mostly, as mentioned, for the sake of potential sequels regardless of whatever would happen to the franchise. But Ron had an ending in mind for a third game, and there's no indication that the discussion of what's really going on is truly over. It's just getting started.
Until MI3 said 'lol nah' anyway
@@BMask I'm more interested in how he was intending to *start* a third game.
MI3 had Guybrush "somehow" escaping the illusion with some minor memory loss and ending up at sea, and I wonder what Ron would have done differently, if he'd retcon the ending to 2 or something.
I believe Ron has said that he's start MI 3 where they left off - in the Carnival. If that doesn't get your hear swirling, I can't wait to see what 3 would have been
Mi3 would not have been, same charicters in a new setting, or ride, Monkey Ranch maybe going on to a cowboy ride.
MI3 confirmed!
Great video, brought back a lot of great memories.
My childhood best friend and I played both 1&2 when they were brand new on PC, and when we got to the ending of MI 2, we realized right away that the “Secret” of Monkey Island was that it was kids playing in a theme park the whole time.
When we first played through SMI 1 we noticed that sometimes it felt like the game world itself was in a Disneyland type of place. Then we played MI 2 and when we got to the ending it all made sense.
I miss those days.
Monkey Island 2 is by far and away the best of the series and up there with the greatest games of all time. The ending has left me in awe for years... I still like to ponder it every now and again.
The first three games were so good, but there's definitely something special about 1 & 2. Great video.
Thank you for covering this series. I always knew about it and had a small appreciation for its impact on people but I never really knew anything about the series at all.
Played each title as it was released and Curse ended up my favorite, especially Blood Island.
In my time line the only existing games are monkey 1 & 2, and now we are finally having the real 3rd
I feel so bad for you
Excellent episode, very informative and entertaining. Having played mostly 1 and 2, I'm not sure if I didn't know about the theories around them, or I had forgotten them. Thank you!
Good video. Curse of Monkey Island is my childhood and I still think it's a great game. I played it before I played either of the originals, and I enjoyed it for what it was. I loved the lush settings, the music, the puzzles and, yes, the *funny* conversations with characters. I admit the ending falls flat, but the journey is worth it.
A bit later in life, I played the first two games and appreciated them in a different way than I did Curse. They're so gleefully, sometimes disturbingly, irreverent (especially 2) that I *loved* them, even when I found the puzzles frustrating. I wouldn't say they hold a higher or lower place in my heart than Curse, but the absurdism of the 2 Gilbert games definitely appeals more to my adult brain than my kid brain, while the reverse is true about the (mostly) straightforward swashbuckling adventure/comedy of Curse.
You are absolutely correct that Curse and all games that came after it fail to really pull off continuity with the first two games. I think of the post-Gilbert games as reboots by new creative teams rather than sequels, even if they try to be otherwise. And that's not a total defense of them: I haven't played Tales of Monkey Island at all, and I found Escape to be a real failure of inspiration - even though the creative team on Escape was clearly trying. So, I agree more than disagree with your take here.
What I ultimately took from your video is there's probably no satisfying way to either end or continue the Monkey Island franchise. That's probably true. And, honestly, I think Ron Gilbert set it up that way. The ending of LeChuck's Revenge permanently breaks the narrative and you can neither retcon it convincingly, or keep the story going in such a broken state. It's like a toy monkey that punches its own wind-up mechanism out of its chest whenever you start it.
Can't disagree. Invalidating the first two games wasn't the greatest choice.
I had never seen the interview with Bill Tiller before, and it has blown my mind. The secret was just out there for 17 years, and I never saw it. You're the first TH-camr to reference it, as fast as I'm aware.
Tiller's revelations--that the ending of MI2 was originally planned for MI1, that its implementation in MI2 was a last minute decision, and that it was hastily tweaked to allow for a sequel--are kind of heartbreaking. It lays bare the fact that Gilbert never had any grand vision for the games. He had an actual secret planned for The Secret of Monkey Island but allowed himself to be talked out if it. He used it as the twist in MI2 out of desperation, then chickened out and changed it so that no one had to seriously commit to it. There was clearly never going to be a Gilbert trilogy. He's full of shit. That was the secret this whole time.
That's a little bit of an uncharitable projection. Tiller had a vague idea of what Gilbert was planning, and it's consistent with the blocks of what we know, but the story is from second hand sources and is more illustrative of the attitude people moving forward had with what they were left with, which is why it was necessary to include.
It's definitely difficult to get to the bottom of Gilbert's true thoughts, but if you piece together all the interviews and conversations out there, it's clear Gilbert was aiming for a theme park allegory since the start and wanted people to notice the clues (my quote about jokes not actually being jokes is a direct gilbert line). It wasn't about hastily or cowardly doing anything, it was about being realistic about a project he knew might not be in his hands, and getting at least aspark of his concept explicitly in there while he still had a say (from what i've heard, the caveats at the end still fit into his metaphorical take on the first two games.) It's very consistent with his decisions up to that point - again, if you play through enough of one and all of two, it is riddled with allusions to theme park imagery to the point where it's unavoidable, I was very explicit about a lot of them, I didn't assemble the swiss family robinson tree comparison for nothing haha
Eventually, Tiller and Gilbert spoke about his plans many years later, in another interview that Tiller did. In that piece, he explained that they did in fact discuss Ron's idea, and he found it really funny and was hoping he got to make it happen. You can find that comment in this interview here : mixnmojo.com/features/interviews/Bill-Tiller-Chat-07/2
@@BMask Thanks for the reply and for the link, I'll definitely check it out. Yeah, maybe I overreacted a bit after I first read the Bill Tiller interview. Perhaps I shouldn't be that hard on Gilbert. It's not like I could have done better.
@@DirtiestDMusic It's okay, I understand the reaction, you're definitely not the only person who feels frustrated with just how difficult it's been to get a real answer, especially from Gilbert. I do think he has a rough plan however and have faith that at the very least it would be SUPER interesting to see pan out.
Yeah I mean if you think about it, the signs were always there pointing at B-Mask being one of those plastic carnival horses, all the REAL fans already figured that out months ago. New character design is trash though, sign my petition to get this hack fired
I found myself being inexplicably interested in what you had to say despite never playing any MI games...Even though I feel a bit bad that I lack proper context, I feel like this speaks a bit to the quality of ideas that you bring to the video. a lot of time editing, planning and speaking your mind was still worth it even when the cards are against you in my situation, and I think that's pretty cool. Don't be too down on yourself, cuz I'm glad to still stick around whether I have context or not. You still make 30 minutes feel like hardly 60 seconds, so thanks for that.
Having played the newest one with it's ending this is pretty clearly a good reading
The last 30 seconds sold it. Well done
If you were a 13 yr old playing Curse for the first time and you managed to get to "A Pirate I was Meant to Be" believe me, it was legendary! Totally agree with you on the ending though. (I didn't get to the ending until much later in life).
I bought MI1 around when it came out in 1990ish - and played it in French. Because at the time my dad lived near Dover and we’d get the ferry to Calais. Picked up a Lucas arts compilation of games in a french supermarket thinking it would have multi-language support. Nope.
So I had to, for example, do the sword fighting training section by a few hours of using a process of elimination to find the right responses. And then another chunk of time fighting the Sword Master.
I think I finished it though.
Have you played it in English since?
Sandor Enckell yeah, got that remake where you can switch to the original on Steam :)
Tu luttes comme une vache.
Great video. Thinking of checking out this series soon. Well done.
The ending of MI 2 has the same impact Time Bandits does.
I was only 9 when MI3 release, and my dad bought it for us to play. I remember how long we took to even leave the Le Chuck's ship.
So, I literally grown up playing it. Out of the 5 games, it is the most beautiful one. And I guess you are right about everything, but...
MI3 is so deeply carved on my own child memories and I love it so much that even now, at the age of 32, knowing everything, I can't avoid treasuring it.
My interest on piracy culture was born with it and I'll always remember it as the greatest experience of my early gameing life.
I also bought it on Steam really recently and it did lived up to my expectations on almost everything.
I really liked every MI except for Escape because I haven't played it; the graphics style is just so off-putting that I prefer pixelated graphics from the old days. My first and for years only MI has been MI3 and I still love to this day; I love the jokes and find them utterly humerous, I like the characters, and the locations and their atmosphere. Only many years later with the release of the Remastered collection I would play the first two games, chronologically and with the "modern" graphics so I probably made all the errors a "true fan" of MI would make them shake their heads. Anyways, I fell in love with MI1 and 2, too! Who says you can't love more than one thing? Maybe I didn't to any mistake by putting the cart before the horse because I can now enjoy three Monkey Island games (technically four, because of Tales, but I find them mechanically, on a gameplay level, unsatisfying). It's the music, the characters, the jokes and the atmosphere. I care little about the underlying interpreted meanings. I'm simple in that regard. I purely enjoy re-playing these three amazing games once a year.
I know I'm in the minority, but I always preferred Curse to MI2. I love both, but MI2 seemed a little off tonally and the ending, though thought provoking and open ended, was never very satisfying to me (kind of had the same feeling about Thimbleweed Park.) Curse had more of Secret's optimism and sense adventure. I also think the Blood Island section incorporates some of MI2's melancholy as well without the layer of cynicism to it.
I'm the same. MI1, then Curse. 2 and four are good, but not as much fun for me.
I remember when Curse was released it was very well received and the only real critique I could find was from Ron Gilbert's camp saying Elaine shouldn't have fallen in love with Guybrush. Since that was a big part of the humor and basically defined their relationship I agree on that point of the issue, it was a big spun for the series and not an easy decision to make. On the other hand, after such a long hiatus a return to the old proven boy chases girl drama would be difficult considering adventure games were facing a sort of backslash from their many nonsensical iterations (I think that was the time around "Gramma looses her marbles" or some thing with their ever increasing obscure puzzles) so a more mainstream approach was needed. That also meant the humor lost its rawness, while in MI2 there appears they developed their own ideas (there's a part in the commentary section where one of them doesn't get the pants falling down joke) in Curse there is more evenness, no big surprises and no singular moment has the same ressonance as those on the previous 2 adventure games. But the puzzles side benefited enormously, other than the cave poker game that took me awhile to figure out, it didn't really cheat on the gamer, while MI2 made fun of you randomly and was never consistent between its "it's only a game" side and its darker aspects which took hold especially in the 2nd half, in Curse you never leave the pirate world, anachronistic, yes, but that's their brand of humor since the beginning. After all these years I think Curse did the right thing, it may be argued that it lost a bit of its soul to market pressure but of course if people isn't buying your product appealing to a wider audience is not only natural, it's survival instinct. All-around I think it might be the better of the series, well produced, great visuals and animation which hold better than early attempts at 3-D, difficulty levels, it is not such a big deviation to consider it a spinoff (by the same token MI2 could be one since it's darker, more serious and the ending isn't clear enough), great voice acting and clearer objectives.
This is... Really fucking solid analysis. Good stuff
Play the games as if MI2 is the last one. The Sequels, put then between MI1 and 2. Even the clothes makes sense. In Curse, he starts using a blouse on top of his shirt. In Tales, he uses a blue jacket. That looks more beat in MI2. AND, he grew a beard.
While i love your perspective on the matter i would have liked that you give a little bit of context behind the point and click genre and how the popularity and rivalry against sierra made the second monkey island different, going out of it's way to be unique and turn the convictions of the genre upside down even with cheeky reference of how sierra games where often very punishing and had points of no return (a.k.a. the phone booth gag) contrast this with the later games that had almost no competition (the 2 last entries were more of a love letter to the genre than anything else really) and very little interest in the public and that is how you get Monkey Island 2: LeChuck's Revenge. Otherwise great video.
Honestly, I wish I knew of this before making the video too. Sadly was too young and too disconnected from other fans/sources of information to know this was the case, so thank you for the input, makes a lot more sense knowing the context.
It’s hard to imagine what a sequel that followed Monkey 2 directly would be like. Are we done with the imaginary pirate setting for good and have to engage with Guybrush’s life as a child, or would they have some way to reinvoke that dreamworld again?
I can see how the theme park angle might be appealing, but I have to agree with Bill Tiller. I think part of it is that, for me, playing Monkey Island IS like going to a theme park, a genuinely THEMED, Disney-style park. It's a fun, entertaining little experience that immerses you in its world and its goofy story. So MI2's ending is kind like going on the Pirates of the Caribbean ride and having the operators stop it just before the end and say, "Yeah, but you guys know these are all just animatronics, right?" I mean, yeah, I do know that, but let me have my suspension of disbelief while the story lasts, huh?
I've always wondered how does Elaine fit into the MI2 ending! And then I discovered that when LeChuck says thet he is Guybrush's brother, he also mentions in one of the dialogue options that they have a sister... It all clicked for me at that moment. If Gubrush and LeChuck are brothers, could Elaine be their sister? Maybe they are two brothers and a sister playing in the Bg Whoop amusment park? It would explain why Ron Gilbert disliked the idea of Guybrush and Elaine marrying so much!
I started with three, and it'll always have a soft spot in my heart, but going back and playing the rest of the series the disconnect after Ron left is pretty apparent. I really didn't like all the retconning 3 and especially 4 shove in; and I'd love to see his idea for how the series would have continued, through it seems very unlikely that'll ever happen.
Good news
I'm one of those old farts who played (and loved) the first two of these games when I was a kid. Stellar video, I really enjoyed it!
I strongly believe that Ron Gilbert will not make his MI3
He has disappointed me with his later games, so probably not a bad thing...
@@Ometecuhtli thimbleweed park is pretty good. for the rest, i am with you.
@@TheIncredibleHuKK really? I found it disappointing
Skett i loved thimbleweed park until the ending....
I really loved Thimbleweed
very nicely done and sincerely touching. if i was rg i would be in tears now and get to work.
MI1 and 2 are the best. And damn, seeing MI3 again after all these years, I'm a bit shocked how good the animations are. Now I want a cartoon TV show.
The BANANG nod made me howl
25:27 this is probably first ever time in the history somebody showed Ending in Diffrent Place then Stan's port... thx for showing it is possible
It was a different time dude. Back then the biggest twist known to mankind was empire strikes back and there wasn't so much weird crap around as nowadays. Back then this series was one of a kind and people were way less critical about plot inconcistensies and so on. Also the playing time seemed longer since MI2 came with 12 or 14 disks which you had to switch every screen ;)
Since you mentioned Empire, you know, I played MI2 before I ever watched Empire. Although I was aware before about Vader being Luke's father, I had no idea that the Chucky "brother" scene was based on Vader and Luke's dialogue, so I did a double-take when I watched the scene!