Economist critiques Labour and Tory economic policies | Mariana Mazzucato
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 9 ก.ย. 2023
- One of the world's most influential thinkers returns to PoliticsJOE with a plan to fix capitalism.
First rising to prominence with her aversion to public spending cuts made in the wake of the financial crisis, Mariana Mazzucato is back with a new edition of her book: The Entrepreneurial State, Debunking Public Vs Private Sector Myths.
In a country attuned to austerity, Mazzucato argues state investment is the real driver of innovation.
She is a professor in the Economics of Innovation and Public Value at University College London and founding director of the UCL Institute for Innovation and Public Purpose.
Interviewer: Oli Dugmore
Videographer: Oli Johnson and Shawnee Linstead
Subscribe to our new podcast now, or you're a silly goose:
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If our UK politicians can't or won't produce a budget that helps improve the lives of all citizens,they shouldn't be in government.
@@MrRufus302 Dear me I'm sorry you don't understand politics,maybe your going through puberty and don't understand intelligence and foreward thinking.
@@MrRufus302hello MrRufus , I’m a Brit living in the Netherlands, it ain’t utopia here but things really work , the Authorities are capable of dishing out a recognizable amount of respect towards it’s citizens, whilst maintaining a very reasonable living space , off course politicians have to answer to a different authority other than themselves, unlike in Westminster, today it was made public that the education secretary’s husband was given one million pounds of Taxpayers cash to fix the schools , He’s a director in a company that fixes schools ? And nobody’s batting an eye about it ? That wouldn’t happen in the Netherlands ,
And the pattern continues, unabated.
they only need to be supported by the corporations that back it the servants/public are the last on anyone's minds.
@@MrRufus302- my gosh. You're just so clever. Golly.
God, I hope Starmer listens to this brilliant woman.
Sadly, I don’t think he will.. he’s too busy listening to Blair, mandelson and murdoch..
Fat chance!
he only listens to those who bung him huge sums of cash
If he doesn't then they're out in one term. It's then back to Tory neoliberal hegemony - the very policies Mariana decries and have reduced this country to a broken Brexit backwater.
Dear God, Labour get this woman onboard as an adviser asap
I believe she was, under Corbyn
Ironically I think they've based their 'missions led approach' on her work. However, it seems like they've got it completely wrong (as expected).
Why so they can tell her to be quiet??? lol
I don't think the labor right (Starmer) don't know what's wrong with their policies, but simply prefer to placate their monied donors.
💯 she needs to be onboard as adviser
A great astute economist/thinker who’s holistic approach needs to be noticed and discussed far and wide. Thanks PoliticsJOE 👏👍
she's awesome.
@@l000tube Labour's plan is to let market forces rule over us.
Why do you think the government wants to abolish our human rights? They hate the idea of policies like these being implemented!
Human rights will go first then the right to vote for anyone that doesn’t pay “ enough” taxes!
They are doubling down because of these such economic policies that will destroy their hierarchy.
Tigers facing the end fight the most ferociously.
The more these progressive economic ideas become well known the bigger the threat to the supper rich.
She's great but, she has a bit to much in "entrepreneurship". She's a Keynesean economist but, I prefer the Marxist explanation which comes down to: "Cut out the middlemen." What they mean by that is you cut out the "entrepreneurship" and puts that power in public and democratic hands. Does that mean you can't learn from her ideas and the ideas of leadership she has? Of course you can learn from that.
She is pushing the US model onto us and is biased towards it. The US economic model is based on war and deception.
I don't think the British ruling class really cares about the nation and it's people being productive and prosperous. Rentier capitalism is easier
The British ruling class are Malthusian and Social Darwinian econometric thinkers.
Mariana is awesome. Problem / solution based mind and thesis. More guests like her in future please.
She's a fool proven by her belief in MMT. You can't print infinite money and expect it to have any value.
Thanks for bringing Mariana back on. Hers is the most lucid commentary I've heard on the central issue of our time - working towards a state capable of tackling the huge problems we face (climate change, growth, inequality, etc.) by restoring competency and confidence after the devastating impact of neoliberalism.
You might want to hold back your congratulations till _after_ we manage to elect a party which _isn't_ neoliberal.
😊😊😊
😊😊😊
she's a WEF shill, nothing commendable about her. The next attack will be water.
She lost me completely on the ESG stuff, agree 100% that government should be more active driving technology. Completely disagree that it is anything like the role of government to socially engineer the population. This is how good centre-left ideas get rejected.
It’s wonderful that she’s talking to the most progressive governments. Well done.
On a productivity and innovation basis MM gives more useful ideas and information in 45 minutes than most public figures would manage in several hours. Not a wasted word! Still a few subjects not covered so let's hope she's back on soon.
More shows with her please… she’s mint!
I'm glad that Marianna Mazzucato will be talking to Starmer, I can see that she is a gutsy super intelligent and humane person. I doubt whether Starmer will be amenable to her brilliant view of the relationship between government and private finance but at least we can rely on her to tell the population all about it afterwards in a book and I can see she doesn't suffer fools or chancers. The school meals example showed just that in addition to her explanation about the role that government must play in this capitalist set up. Unfettered capitalism has done away with conditionality in regard to government money. Capitalism has to be fettered or the corporate parasites will consume our society and give nothing back.
Can we just make her Queen of the World or something??
Olí needs interviews like this to recharge after a Pubcast.
I need to see a clip of Marianna schooling a free marketeer
No such thing as free marketeer just have and have not
@@paulbrickland9625 I see you haven't talked to a lot of American liberals who'd make you a serf if they got their chance.
Hi Jo, I'd be keen to have you interview Dr Muzzucato on the question of whether growth is actually still what we need in mature economies. Or perhaps you can get Kate Raworth on the show to discuss this point? Or better still, have them both on together to talk it through?? :-)
3 minutes into the conversation and I am already convinced that this woman is stronger contender for a future Nobel Prize in Economics.
Her comments on Adams Smith are really interesting. You should have asked her how free marketeers were allowed to hijack and pervert his ideas.
this was an amazing interview, such clear thinking , so devoid of rhetoric, so clear on the arguments.
Also as it makes so much sense the markets are unlikely to be spooked and the Tory press would have a great deal of difficulty trashing it because it's economic development for public/private good and sound rationale behind it rather than ideology.
Mariana's economic theories and practical policy applications are a breath of fresh air and an antidote to Chicago School/ Milton Friedman neoliberal economic policy that's clearly an horrendous failure over the last 40+ years.
It's time for change and it's incumbent upon Starmer to institute Mariana's economic theories/policies.
I don’t always agree with Politics Joe (sorry). But listen to this interview. Then listen to Andrew Marr for New Stateman; and Newsnight on any random night.
I think you’ll immediately see why legacy media is dying. It needs a shot of reason to the head.
Joe’s interview here is perfectly paced. It is informative and interesting and entertaining. It is exactly what is missing from MSM news. I absolutely loved it.
So well played Politics Joe.
it is a shame he kept watching the clock and didn't let her continue for longer. With that passion she could go on for 3-4 hours easily...
@@RobertoAlves-hf2tf my guess (and that's naturally all it is), she had another appointment and he had promised to stop her when her time had run out
It's such an easy formula. You bring on someone who knows what they're talking about and let them go into detail. I suppose maybe most audiences want more drama and less thinking so they need constant interruptions and arguments and for it to be over in 5 minutes or less.
This woman is amazing. Please get her into the next government as economic advisor!
As a UCL alumni, what a treasure and credit Mariana is.
I’m sure Mariana appreciates validation from random TH-cam commentator(s) 👍🏽 👍🏽 👍🏽 ALUMNI commentators no less 🫡 🫡 🫡
@AbuSayad I'm sure she does to.
I have a new hero! Mazzucato says everything I have always believed (and spent decades trying and failing to influence Westminster towards).
So much potential for the UK to do better. This was a great listen.
Absolutely. Mariana gives us some hope if Labour fully understand and implement her ideas.
Let's be honest the UK is on its knees after 40+ years of Tory neoliberalism - Brexit & Braverman ( to name but two egregious examples) are a symptom of a deeply broken socio-economic system.
We need Starmer to fully embrace and implement Mariana's economic ideas and build a new less rapacious capitalism that works for the 99% and the planet.
I watched Chris Packham's Earth recently on the iPlayer and we're at one minute to midnight owing to the climate crisis.
A new form of capitalism , a paradigm shift away from unproductive financialisation and corporate / shareholder hegemony to fairer wealth distribution and a planet sustainable economy is our only option.
I could listen to Mariana talk all day, always so inspiring and insightful- well done on getting another chat up guys x
Yes she’s marvellous I’m positively fizzy
That was such a good interview. The things she was talking about is exactly the problem I have with Labour. They u-turn on everything they say, don't have any big bold plans such as those from post war Labour, and all Rachel Reeves can talk about is growth without any spending or taxing the rich and won't talk about how to achieve it. You can't just say "growth" all the time with no plan
Mariana has an incredible mind truly and so incisive when I feel so overwhelmed to current society she gives a clear route into new mind set to create solutions to these deep issues we face
Thanks for bringing Mariana back, I could listen to her all day. She's so interesting
This woman is such an incredibly clear-communicator with such a grasp on these topics. It's actually unbelievable to see somebody this good at what they do.
We're incredibly lucky she's leading a university department in the UK which makes it much more likely that Government - hopefully Labour - will run with this.
@@MrTimg12 absolutely agreed! Let’s hope so, eh?
This is the second interview i have seen with her now, she is fantastic, very knowledgeable, clearly explains, she offers great new ideas and seems a lot of fun! :-)
The only thing I disagree with is the implication that Ikea meatballs aren't tasty! We need men and women like this lady in power ☺
😂
As a Marxist I don't believe this economic approach will solve the inherent contradictions in capitalism. However it's a million times better than the redundant thinking going on at the moment from the Tories or Labour. Starmer!! Employ this woman immediately!!!
What is the economic approach you would prefer?
Edit: I ask this because Marxism as an economic philosophy is pretty diverse. Both post 1945 Labour and the Soviet Union could both claim to be marxist but in reality had many differences.
I think you need to refresh your understanding of Marxism. You've described Stalinist state capitalism and the statist interventions of a bourgeois reformist party with socialists in their ranks. Marx never put forward a blue print for a " Marxist" economy ,indeed he is quoted as saying ironically because of the distortions to his work that " I am no Marxist" ! He was excited by the organisation that grew around the Paris Commune and this points the way forward as well as the workers councils in various other revolutions most notably the Russian until it was destroyed by Stalinist counter revolution. As you can see it is quite difficult to explain these events in such a short space. Hence my advice to read some literature from the classical Marxist tradition. The SWP are the torch bearers of this trad.
@@leswatts8422 the point is though, Marx was deliberately very vague about how communism would actually be achieved, he was excited by the Paris commune yes, but that organisation ultimately did not have a consistent policy platform. That's why I ask what your version would be
@@beanoboy62 and that's why I don't think this is the format for this kind of wide ranging discussion. I'm terrible at typing.🤓
@@leswatts8422 exactly no hard feelings lol 😅, I'm very much in favour of worker democracy as you described. Some Marxists are very in favour of nationalising all industries and are generally very authoritarian which is something I am very much against
One of the best economic minds alive
What perplexes me is how an independent expert can possess superior insight and expertise compared to those in charge of governing a nation
Most intelligent people aren't interested in power nor are they greedy. Our government aren't intelligent
Because she has spent years studying serious economics rather than bullshit studies like PPE or MBA, both of which are more indoctrination than education
The difference between a lobby creation (the politician) and an academic creation (the intellectual).
It’s just so refreshing to hear from someone who understands the geopolitical landscape and has solutions and clever ideas. 👏
The best President - Barbados. Absolutely spot-on!
I'm starting an MPA at the Institute for Innovation and Public Purpose on Monday. I can't wait.
Fascinating! Its a complete change of thinking that this country needs.
I will most definitely look into her books after hearing this succinct analysis of the way to exit the current neoliberal catastrophe.
Here's hoping someone in Labour listens to her and implements some of her insights (goes without saying that the Tories are an absolutely lost cause when it comes to doing grown-up economics).
Great clear discussion. More of this please.
Labour should really listen to her.
She is an exceptional human!
Brilliant. Thanks for making these concepts and ideas accessible to common people like me without any formal training in economics
In Mazz We Trust.
Wow, what a great interview! Going to have to listen to it again to take it all in. Gives me hope that there are people like Mariana in the world working with leaders, thank you 😊
Clearly a smart person who Britain's leadership steers a wide berth around.
Excellent, as she said appropriate leadership in govt and private is a key
Fascinating. The speed at which MM sparks is amazing. I shall have to listen through again because I am certain I missed some important bits. Thank you.
More of this in our politics would make such a difference to how this country works and feels about itself.
She’s so right around 10:00, for example the entire nuclear industry is basically coasting off the US Navy’s initial investment in creating a reactor. Those ‘first-mover’ costs are invaluable; government has the power to do so much good, it should exercise that power much more often because it can do positive things for the public without the profit motive sabotaging the distribution of money and power
Only once the state had proved that the technology works. Why should the companies that benefut not pay for the state financed research
I almost (almost) have a bit of sympathy for Thatcher cause at least she had the excuse that neo liberal economics hadn't been tried. Now we know what works and what doesn't and yet our politicians haven't learnt a damn thing
Kinda
The data showed Neoliberalism was never going to work - but Right-wingers have blindness when it comes to data, facts and science
Thatcher was a counter-revolutiinary ideological. Thatcherism was the revenge of incompetent middle management, spurred on by the very wealthy
Best talk ive listened too. What we all think because it is so logical but couldn't put into words let alone explain and back up so clearly. I do hope the next government takes her onboard to create fair sustainable growth which reduces the current inequalities.
Fantastic interview. From an economic illiterate, I thank you.
Thanks for bringing professor Mazzucato back. I have a several Master's level apprentices at the moment, and I've been really irritated by the University that provides the training focusing on (almost fetishising) start-up/silicon-valley style innovation. These questions about how we gauge value and success, are really important.
I also suspect people who insist start-ups are the model for innovation have never heard of survivorship bias.
I think we should bring back that term for landlords, the 'sterile class', that's very apt.
Once in a generation type brainiac this woman. She is incredible. I wish she did more English language content but Maja Göpel is on a similar level. She is a German economist and transformation scientist. Very much in same wheelhouse as Mariana.
Learnt more economic theory from watching 2 TH-cam videos with this outstanding intellectual than in the last 40 plus years
It's important to remember that whatever Labour are suggesting is not what they think is best; it is what is found that the voters ultimately decide the election in a handful of constituencies that, due to our idiotic electoral system, think are the best policy, is better then what the Tories are offering, and makes them vote labour. Unfortunatley too many people do not understand the markets and economic policy so for labour to go out be realistic is not actually always helpful if the goal is winning an election. I wished it was otherwise.
I could listen to Mariana Mazzucato talk all day. Thanks
Brilliant content she is awesome I hope we listen to her.
It's not dumb economics, it's ruling class neo-liberal economics which is what the Con-Lab First Past the Post duopoly deliver every time which is why Labour is currently getting the fat cat donations and has shifted to the hard right economic consensus.
why don't we just put people like this in charge
What frustrates me immensely is that we serps and common folk listen to smart people like her, who possess great ability to analyse everything and make sound judgements, but they are never the ones making decisions. Those people are cringey, fumbling, disingenuous, incompetent and try to gaslight and charm their way through meaningful questions or just don’t turn up to answer or be held accountable. It’s completely baffling and not a good way of running a country if you step away and look at it from the outside. Political terms limit scope of thinking of half of the people in government, while the other half are blinded by their own ego and hunger for power. I’m not saying we should be a technocracy but there should be at least some laws put in place to ensure self interest, personal agendas and incompetence don’t ruin central decision making.
At last someone saying that a government like ours can spend before taxing and therefore doesn't need to cut back like they have been doing, that they can invest!
The UK doesnt even have a industrial plan, i work in the recrutimetn sector for the Manuafacturing industry - we dont have a plan, we dont have a minister - and we (the governement) lets the UK finance sector agressively take over companies and sells them aboard. So we are losing businesses.
We have a very strong SME market which probably needs about half of its GDP now, to invest into it, to grow it, and raise Productivity from things like Robotics, and AI - but that will raise peoples jobs and salary.
Education is a big problem for engineerign and manufactring as well, not enought apprenticeships, conversion courses and Universities dont want to know SME.
Its a mess.
So pleased you have the excelent and inspiring Mariana Mazzucato.
👏👏👏 another great interview by Joe! Thank you
Fantastic!!! More of this lady please…. Just listen to her!!!
Thank you for sharing the interview.
Don't you know? We haven't got any human rights here in the UK. Disgusting though it is, the tories don't think we are entitled to human rights, so they have abolished them
Excellent interview.
Amazing guest, good questions from Oli.
Mariana is excellent thank you 😊 The present uk government has griffted its way through 13years with out regards to an holistic approach and promises more of the same 😢
wow what an interview. she has loads of audiobooks that have greatly improved my morning commute
Brilliant lady, so clever and she talks a lot of common sense. It's sad she supports the gunners, but you can't have everything
Great interview by you both.
This was great , thanks everyone
Super insightful
Great interview
Thanks so much, that was a brilliant and coherent and humane discussion of economics. I don't agree with everything she says here, but I did with most of it and it was so refreshing to hear this way of viewing "growth" and economy.
Thank you!
Brilliant so right.. tax rises are essential but no politician wanting votes admits how they will fund spending.. she is really spot on .. private interference has not working .
Love this interview. I can see there is a book I need to read!
Top guests again, thankyou so much. Really excellent.
I love listening to Mariana . Super smart who makes economics relatable ...
The major problem for this country is that we have Senior Civil Servants in charge of Politicians, all from Public Schools, developing laws and policies to suit themselves and create public division, they aren't interested in the run down areas of Britain after they demolished our industrial heritage, neglect is everywhere in the UK, it's the old school tie malarkey and it will continue unabated until this stigma is broken. Only then can we have sensible people, like this lady, running our nation, but, it'll never happen, not in a thousand years, THOSE IN CHARGE won't allow it, otherwise, it would have been done already.
She has this strange idea that anyone up there Labour or Tory, cares one bit about anything but their pockets and jobs.
This was really good content, thank you 😮
Love her so much ❤
Fascinating interview.
Brilliant. Thanks for letting Mariana have her legs. I suspect she might have spoken sense for some days.
What we need is Mariana and what we've got is Starmer ffs
I was begining to fall in love and then she said she's an Arsenal fan.. Excellent interview, I learned a lot.
If I get really fat, or if I put on muscle there is a difference. Why then is all economic growth considered equal? Why is economic growth discussed so much more than economic stability and efficiency?
Thanks from Seattle! Mariana, Kate Raworth and Stephanie Kelton are my lights when I think of how we are going to break the chains of this techno feudalism your guest Varoufakis spoke to...
Excellent.
I remember seeing a doco about the public/private 'partnership' at London Underground, and how the morale, work ethic, and productivity of people who'd been there for years took a nosedive as the private management practices and contractor companies moved in.
Wow, she speaks sense!
I've started thinking about getting rid of most of the politicians and replacing them with digital direct democracy
And for that we need an informed pop. So we need better schooling, less workdays, less struggle with econ, etc etc. It is a long way to go, but I think you are on to something.
Been waiting for Mazzucato to comment on Starmer and Reeves Fiscal rules
Well, what a treat ! ❤
Fantastic!!
Please, please Mariana, come to New Zealand and do some workshopping with our politicians and bureaucrats. We've been described as a "housing market with bits tacked on" and I believe that we could be soooo much more.....
She definitely needs to remind starmer why labour is called labour.
Imho starmer will just use her for buzzwords, thats all labour do.
It must be very frustrating for Mariana Mazzucato to live in a country where she is ignored by those who either running the country or hoping to run this country. Has Mariana worked with Kate Rawlings of Donout Economics?