Great video. I love these kinds of ”demystifying” type investigations. A fun one I’ve seen is a guy who tries to figure out what makes one electric guitar sound different to another. He ended up with strings nailed to a bench or something and, if I remember correctly, it was as simple as what pickup was under the strings- the rest was basically irrelevant.
Yeah, there’s a lot of stuff we guitarists do due to just how complicated the gear we’re using really is. Also there are some things that can be difficult to explain from time to time, which just adds to the confusion!
I believe you are thinking of Jim Lill. Very clever and entertaining fellow. I don't totally agree with all his "findings": there are sometimes subtle differences where he declares that there are none; but still, he cuts through a lot of precious BS and his videos are always worth watching.
@@satanbane I noticed the same thing when watching his videos but I kind of just accepted that as a good lesson anyway since it's a useful experiment even if him and I ended up with different ideas. Like, no way would I have bothered to do all that stuff on my own 😂
@@FjordFuzz Got one and love it. Always have my eyes out for a 2nd hand 2nd one for the right price.There are many usable settings so I consider running 2! I'm using it for bass and I really wish you (or someone) would demo all your releases on bass. VERY interesting to learn you're planning something similar!
Thanks! That’s the obvious next step, but I’m not convinced it’s a good service for my overarching project. I’d love for decent tone to be accessible and germanium is anything but accessible!
@@FjordFuzz do you mean from a supply chain standpoint or consistency? I have a Hedda and a Fat Fuzz Factory and in comparison the FFF is wildly inconsistent when it get's hot in the practice space during summer. No surprise, just an observation. I like both. ;)
@@lowdesertpunk there is no "supply chain" per se, theyre not made any more so the prices will continue up. yeah theyre all inconsistant due to the tin "whiskers" that can devellop with age and poor storage causing leakage to vary. there's also fakes everywhere!! i personally find old broken(non repairable) radios, organs and tvs to rip germaniums out of and it's a bit of a process to match them by ear in a fuzz face curcuit but they really bloom when you get a good pair!! the temperature instability can be managed with a germanium diode to offset the increased leakage and partially stabalize the transistors function(still varies a little).
Sounds like they increase in bass as you go and lose clarity the more bass you get it seems but it's the opposite when it comes to clean up from the volume knob on the guitar
Yes! This is one of the many wonderful features of the circuit. When I play live I kind of use this part of it to fall into and poke out of the mix depending on what I need at any given time
2222s are about 270hFE, same for BC209s. The 549s are grainier at around 450 and the 109s sit at about 330. All pairs measure within about 1-5%, but I really don’t think that matters! These are bias fixed to behave well as long as the transistors provide a beta of about 250 and above!
Only the transistors changed and the supporting resistors are all 1% tolerance or so! No biasing per transistors and besides, I believe Q2 is sitting closer to 6V than half supply as that’s how I like it, but I haven’t actually measured them for this iteration of the circuit as these findings have just been forwarded from earlier iterations of the circuit!
Fuzz is germanium. Everything else is something else imho. You can be close with silicon but never match it. You pedals are great, you do a great job 👍
Haha that’s a pretty bold claim! Also I’m not really all that swayed by magical components. I’m mostly interested in whether or not something sounds good and I mean, if that was even down to something as soulless as digital processing and code, I’d still be happy if it did the job correctly and in an intriguing and inspiring way!
@FjordFuzz You have to do things seriously, but without taking yourself seriously 😉 In Europe we have a different sense of humor and a different vision of things. You can see it in your pedals. That's why I allowed myself. I assumed you were intelligent and with a sense of humor. I wasn't wrong... 😁 👊 Take care and keep on doing what you do ✌️
Mostly agreed, although, and I don’t know how, but I know Ruban of UMO once built a negative dc germanium fuzz face with upside down PNP transistors. I had to fix it once, but it failed miserably and he changed it back to its original specs. This was probably 11 years ago or so, so I don’t think I had the insight to actually spot what was going on and as for the «point-to-point» wiring he had done, it was more like a ball of space junk with wires coming out of it. Sounded decent though!
You say that BC549C has more "range" than the 2N2222A... I would think that is caused by different PN junction "resistance" across the base-emitter junction, which has an interaction with surrounding capacitors to set cutoff frequencies. All those BJTs are capable of switching above audio ranges. I'm sure you can design the 2n2222 to have more range.
Yeah that might be right! I’ve also previously experimented with silicon power transistors which should reportedly have a higher internal millet capacitance and I did find them to be a bit sort of softer and saggier sounding!
I should add it’s not necessarily preferable having wider range to the frequency distribution with a fuzz. I suppose this is one of many places in this field where the limits of my own perception border with the ability granted to me in maintaining a sufficiently consistent wider audio chain. There are so many things that could affect anything else here that I suppose I can’t be certain what’s causing what and the tendency to blame magic in lieu of insight also afflicts me, even though I try to reject it! These are such minute details though. I bet if I loaded each one with a 5-% difference in any other value, say a Q2 collector resistor or feedback resistance, the differences would be much more noticeable.
@FjordFuzz All part of the design! If want more consistency, you'll have to design for it. I don't think minute differences in cutoff frequency is particularly perceptable, but things like BJT gains (which include Miller capacitance, although this isn't important unless you use power BJTs in audio, as you mentioned) will be your largest culprit. I saw some comments talking about Germanium vs silicon... all nonsense if you understand these devices. Even vacuum tubes (triodes) can be replicated fairly well with FETs, since they have a similar non-linear transfer function. Subtle differences in non-linearity is practical imperceptible as well. Audio gear is full of snake-oil I'm afraid. This is coming from a qualified electronic engineer, yet people who don't know GND from earth still tell me otherwise :D
@ I get you and I’ve been frustrated with similar things myself before, but in the end, electronics is almost indistinguishable from magic for most people and admittedly also to me from time to time, so I can understand how people lose track of what’s actually important as soon as things get too technical!
Outstanding. Love this.
Great video. I love these kinds of ”demystifying” type investigations.
A fun one I’ve seen is a guy who tries to figure out what makes one electric guitar sound different to another. He ended up with strings nailed to a bench or something and, if I remember correctly, it was as simple as what pickup was under the strings- the rest was basically irrelevant.
Yeah, there’s a lot of stuff we guitarists do due to just how complicated the gear we’re using really is. Also there are some things that can be difficult to explain from time to time, which just adds to the confusion!
I believe you are thinking of Jim Lill. Very clever and entertaining fellow. I don't totally agree with all his "findings": there are sometimes subtle differences where he declares that there are none; but still, he cuts through a lot of precious BS and his videos are always worth watching.
@@satanbane I noticed the same thing when watching his videos but I kind of just accepted that as a good lesson anyway since it's a useful experiment even if him and I ended up with different ideas. Like, no way would I have bothered to do all that stuff on my own 😂
Very very interesting. Also beautiful tone❤
Thanks for the comparison 🎉
The bc549 is in loads of 70s British gear. I have always liked them for as much difference as it nakes
Yeah I like them too, but I think it’s down to them being good old British transistors with a cool name. They also usually do the job well!
tone's in the hands - great player (i think the player is also thew builder which like yeh!)
Hello, Daniel. Are you planning to bring the Fenris back or something similar? It was such a great pedal. Thanks
Yes I am!
@@FjordFuzz Got one and love it. Always have my eyes out for a 2nd hand 2nd one for the right price.There are many usable settings so I consider running 2! I'm using it for bass and I really wish you (or someone) would demo all your releases on bass. VERY interesting to learn you're planning something similar!
Thanks for that. A comparison between germanium and silicon would be interesting as well.
Thanks! That’s the obvious next step, but I’m not convinced it’s a good service for my overarching project. I’d love for decent tone to be accessible and germanium is anything but accessible!
@@FjordFuzz do you mean from a supply chain standpoint or consistency? I have a Hedda and a Fat Fuzz Factory and in comparison the FFF is wildly inconsistent when it get's hot in the practice space during summer. No surprise, just an observation. I like both. ;)
@@lowdesertpunk there is no "supply chain" per se, theyre not made any more so the prices will continue up. yeah theyre all inconsistant due to the tin "whiskers" that can devellop with age and poor storage causing leakage to vary. there's also fakes everywhere!! i personally find old broken(non repairable) radios, organs and tvs to rip germaniums out of and it's a bit of a process to match them by ear in a fuzz face curcuit but they really bloom when you get a good pair!! the temperature instability can be managed with a germanium diode to offset the increased leakage and partially stabalize the transistors function(still varies a little).
Sounds like they increase in bass as you go and lose clarity the more bass you get it seems but it's the opposite when it comes to clean up from the volume knob on the guitar
Yes! This is one of the many wonderful features of the circuit. When I play live I kind of use this part of it to fall into and poke out of the mix depending on what I need at any given time
Cool, thanks! How about the gain of these different transistors? Have they been matched beforehand?
2222s are about 270hFE, same for BC209s. The 549s are grainier at around 450 and the 109s sit at about 330. All pairs measure within about 1-5%, but I really don’t think that matters! These are bias fixed to behave well as long as the transistors provide a beta of about 250 and above!
Were all of the supporting resistors exactly the same on each circuit, or did you bias all transistors to half supply?
Only the transistors changed and the supporting resistors are all 1% tolerance or so! No biasing per transistors and besides, I believe Q2 is sitting closer to 6V than half supply as that’s how I like it, but I haven’t actually measured them for this iteration of the circuit as these findings have just been forwarded from earlier iterations of the circuit!
Fuzz is germanium.
Everything else is something else imho.
You can be close with silicon but never match it. You pedals are great, you do a great job 👍
Haha that’s a pretty bold claim! Also I’m not really all that swayed by magical components. I’m mostly interested in whether or not something sounds good and I mean, if that was even down to something as soulless as digital processing and code, I’d still be happy if it did the job correctly and in an intriguing and inspiring way!
@FjordFuzz Yes I was intentionally provocative, a form of self-deprecating humor. What matters is the result... 😆😉
Well done haha
@FjordFuzz
You have to do things seriously, but without taking yourself seriously 😉
In Europe we have a different sense of humor and a different vision of things. You can see it in your pedals. That's why I allowed myself. I assumed you were intelligent and with a sense of humor. I wasn't wrong... 😁 👊
Take care and keep on doing what you do ✌️
Yes. If it says NPN then don't use PNP
Mostly agreed, although, and I don’t know how, but I know Ruban of UMO once built a negative dc germanium fuzz face with upside down PNP transistors. I had to fix it once, but it failed miserably and he changed it back to its original specs. This was probably 11 years ago or so, so I don’t think I had the insight to actually spot what was going on and as for the «point-to-point» wiring he had done, it was more like a ball of space junk with wires coming out of it. Sounded decent though!
You say that BC549C has more "range" than the 2N2222A... I would think that is caused by different PN junction "resistance" across the base-emitter junction, which has an interaction with surrounding capacitors to set cutoff frequencies. All those BJTs are capable of switching above audio ranges. I'm sure you can design the 2n2222 to have more range.
Yeah that might be right! I’ve also previously experimented with silicon power transistors which should reportedly have a higher internal millet capacitance and I did find them to be a bit sort of softer and saggier sounding!
I should add it’s not necessarily preferable having wider range to the frequency distribution with a fuzz. I suppose this is one of many places in this field where the limits of my own perception border with the ability granted to me in maintaining a sufficiently consistent wider audio chain. There are so many things that could affect anything else here that I suppose I can’t be certain what’s causing what and the tendency to blame magic in lieu of insight also afflicts me, even though I try to reject it! These are such minute details though. I bet if I loaded each one with a 5-% difference in any other value, say a Q2 collector resistor or feedback resistance, the differences would be much more noticeable.
@FjordFuzz All part of the design! If want more consistency, you'll have to design for it. I don't think minute differences in cutoff frequency is particularly perceptable, but things like BJT gains (which include Miller capacitance, although this isn't important unless you use power BJTs in audio, as you mentioned) will be your largest culprit.
I saw some comments talking about Germanium vs silicon... all nonsense if you understand these devices. Even vacuum tubes (triodes) can be replicated fairly well with FETs, since they have a similar non-linear transfer function. Subtle differences in non-linearity is practical imperceptible as well. Audio gear is full of snake-oil I'm afraid. This is coming from a qualified electronic engineer, yet people who don't know GND from earth still tell me otherwise :D
@ I get you and I’ve been frustrated with similar things myself before, but in the end, electronics is almost indistinguishable from magic for most people and admittedly also to me from time to time, so I can understand how people lose track of what’s actually important as soon as things get too technical!
pretty much the same - modern ones sounded tighter
Agreed! Maybe I should show what happens if you change the value of just one resistor instead next, haha
You are maybe the only pedal builder who Can really playing guitar. 😅
Haha thanks, but you should check out Kingtone pedals then! He really knows how to play!
Josh Scott is no slouch either.
Mythos pedals too 😅
@@belo1971this. Zach is an amazing player. I’m a bit biased cause I know him from back home. Great dude
John snider from EAE is a great player as well