Sony's TOP SECRET Plan to Destroy Canon
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Tony Northrup and Chelsea Northrup have fun contemplating Sony's future cameras and business strategy. Tony builds a case for why Sony's past and present business strategies might be signaling a top secret camera project that's on it's way to the market.
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I've been thinking something similar since they release their phones with the Alpha software. I bet if they do this, they will do so at a massive event like the soccer World Cup in 2024 in the USA.
As a Sony full frame landscape shooter I haven't upgraded since the A7RIII because the software upgrades weren't compelling enough. I did decide to try the Olympus/OM systems cameras because of what they are doing in that arena. Absolutely blown away by how much more creative freedom I have to leave my tripod behind when I'm shooting with my OM-1. Being able to simulate ND filters in broad daylight by stacking exposures in camera, as well as creating a RAW file is incredible. The many other computational modes far exceed even what my phone can do.
A7RIII user here - it really held up well. The A6400+ real-time-tracking would be an improvement, but otherwise it's such a strong body.
@@HappyHubris still the best performing sensor. I own 2 A7RIIIs and an a7III because it still produces the best low light stills.
@@HappyHubris I have the a6600 as well and it is more than sufficient my needs
Still rocking the A7RII, portrait and landscape. $1199 new at BH! Works AWESOME!
@@MuahMan absolutely! Other than weeks to color science they haven't changed core image quality much
I am one of the few Samsung Galaxy NX owners. A smart camera with interchangeable lenses and Android built-in. I LOVED that thing. Straight filters; uploading to facebook, instagram, ... It was an amazing camera way ahead of its time. If Sony goes that route ... I am game!
Yeah, I remember there being an Android NX or NEX or something at the time I was traveling in China & HK, and considering picking up my first ILC there!
Being a first gen Android based ILC, I thought I'd wait & see MkII.. thinking this would be an industry (or at least Samsung) trend going forward 😂.. IIRC it wasn't long after that Samsung exited the market though 😆
I think you are right Sony is working on android OS and I like all your videos and keep up the good job. Thanks again for a good info.
Do you still have it, and if you do does it still function? Like uploading to social media?
It was awesome just wish it came out today instead of back then
@@fusion-frosty the NX1 was good but i had a problems where the function scroll would get stuck, also a flippy screen would of been nice. 😀when its not acting up i still used it .
As a hobby photographer for close to 50 years and even though my career was tech heavy I think this is about the time I’m getting off the upgrade bus.
Agreed. I personally feel technology will always be with us, however, too much technology will take the fun out of photography.
As a photographer for over 60 years (pro first then amateur) and in IT for 40 plus I can't wait.
I've shot 4x5 press & view cameras, medium format Rollei & Bronica, 35mm (got my 1st Nikon in 1965) & got into digital in the early 2000's. As much as I love the mechanical precision of those film cameras, having had several personal darkrooms & printed my own work in b&w and color as well as worked in / managed pro labs - I wouldn't go back to film.
If Sony does this I will sell / donate my Nikon digital gear & switch. Thom Hogan is right: Digital Camera Connectivity has lagged HORRIBLY. Why can my tween daughter's old iphone - not to mention my Pixel 6 Pro - transmit stills AND video via SMS, connect to the Cloud and SM (Social Media) while my digital cameras do it so poorly?
Plus: Digital post-processing is superior - FAR superior - to any wet darkroom. The base image generated by a 50 Mpx FF digital sensor combined with the computational power harnessed by current software, printed on high quality pigment & dye printers enables a competent photographer to make images equal to or better than the best film-based images (imo).
Ansel Adams had vision and the technical skills to express it, as did Edward Weston, Eliot Porter, Ernest Hass & others. Present day digital imaging lowers (but doesn''t remove) the technical bar. It's up to us to supply the vision.
Making pictures is about two things: Making images and sharing them with others. I'm making a case for digital technology as an expander of the image creation process and for the Internet allowing us to share images further and more widely.
A camera mfr is going to remove the bottleneck currently present between making and EASILY sharing - as we do with our phones. Nikon is first and foremost a camera company. Their Z series is a quantum leap - but still lacks the RELIABLE seamless connectivity of moderately-priced smartphones. Canon is a larger corporation but Sony is a COMMUNICATIONS company which has built out a full system of digital cameras & lenses.
The next step is clear. The Northrups have roadmapped it in general terms. No other camera mfr is as well-positioned as Sony to accomplish this.
Personally, I would like to see them acquire Nikon, keeping the brand alive as while bringing Sony's communications expertise to Nikon cameras.
@@larrymitchell3502 As far as film goes I'm with you having done my own processing starting around '66 and I can still remember the magic of watching my first image appear as if by magic and I still have a couple of my old Nikons and my dads Canon AV-1 . I moved to digital in 2003 (although my office had some early and somewhat horrendous unreliable early Fujis with appalling local agents) , I went with Canon only because at the time looking at Canon and Nikon at the same price point the Canon came out ahead in the hand and for usability, haven't found a need to change since except RF in 2022. I can find no reason to go back to film , I'm as bemused by the current trend to film as I was by people wanting vinyl records, sure I still have mine but I find CDs play better in the car!! As for photos what I can do in photoshop compared to my dark room well..... One of the excuses I've heard is that film slows you down, I've never sped up moving the other way, probably why my cameras have low shutter counts and god knows being able to double check images after taking them is a hell of an improvement on the week I used to wait for prints or two or three weeks for slides. For myself I don't want any more computational photography in my camera, well not in the .raw files anyway, as I actually enjoy in my retirement the marvels of 2023 photo editing .
I fully agree phone connectivity leaves a lot to be desired, and why does my R5 not have GPS built in like my 5D4, and why can't I trace and I brick my camera if it gets stolen, why doesn't my camera have a 1tb SSD built in, but then my Swiss army knife R5 is the best camera I've owned in 58 years.
The big question I have is as somebody making photo books of my deceased parents life (from their albums and slides) and mine (slides, albums. and backed up digital) will todays generation be able to access their images from now in 2080 when their grand kids ask about the old days. !!
I am a retired engineering Dean with a background in optics and signal processing- you are absolutely correct!
I’m an accountant that will not happen.
Samsung was working on this even way before. Sadly they left the camera market already. Just remember the galaxy camera from Samsung.
@@TigaWould yes....except for one major point you are sidestepping....Canon doesn't make smartphones. Sony does. That alone puts them way ahead of Canon no matter how you spin it. Not only because Sony has point and shoot cameras (while Canon now effectively has none) in their phones but because they already have a ton of experience with android and cross pollination between cameras and smartphones with the Alpha designed camera system on the Xperia phones. What does Canon have anywhere near that?
@@TigaWould You’re right to mention security as a reason cameras aren’t more user friendly. We’ll see how much people like it when their $5,000 flagship Sony is fried by a hacker and infects ask their other electronics.
all, rather
This discussion was like watching Sherlock and Watson discussing the aspects of a major crime. The thought process that they present is so logical that it gives it a tremendous amount of credability. I think the Northrop's are spot on in their predictions. Just how the whole process will unfold will only be answered in the passage of time.
I agree. I think they are indeed onto something here
The discussion about Sony eventually using Android was going on for the last 5 years at least. There was zero new information in this video.
@@ElementaryWatson-123 except that 1) five years ago there were no Sony phones with a camera system designed from the ground up by their Alpha camera division. What's more ...phone cameras have improved a LOT since five years ago. So the conversation is entirely different now. You can't possibly think that what was true five years ago is true now?
2) They aren't giving information. They are positing a theory regarding Sony melding their Alpha and Xperia brands together. And there has never been more evidence of that than right now as opposed to five years ago.
Samsung used android in a camera a long time ago. Northrup praised it. However, it no longer exist. His “insight” into the future is famously wrong. Ultra fast wireless transfer is not around the corner, and his entire naive analysis is based on it.
The interesting question is: Will they create a new and technically independent camera with all that features or just a lens with a docking station to your Xperia phone (the phone would do all processing and connectivity) ? The second option would increase their sell of phones too.
That's a wild thought. But makes sense.
They tried that, I think it was in 2015. It was a lens that you could pair to your phone! It did not do so well because you had to carry a extra thing around with you. People wanted to use just there phones, one less thing to worry about!!! Phones are nice and compact and you take them every place you go!
The Northrup’s are not crazy !! I’ve followed the leading edge of digital (on a small budget). I started with the Agfa 1280 in 1996 have gone through dozens of point and shoots and then APS-C’s. Currently mirrorless Fuji X-S10. Always the latest and greatest I could afford was my desire. Yet “he who never looks back” recently discovered the 2015 Nikon 1 J5. Tiny thing micro SD, one-inch with a DXO score of 65. I love it. I want a wider lens line up, the latest 1 inch sensor (DXO 88 ??), 7 stops in body stabilization, the best computational HDR. A small small body that the new generation of smart phone shooters can relate to and will carry. Chelsea at 22:45 talks about cameras moving into the present. The present being smart phone photography (and photographers). I think Sony will start at the 1” end (the present), not full frame. Full frame is 1913-1914 Oskar Barnack. The Northrups are not crazy or if so, then so am I.
Oh dear I just thought of all the people in my life who have called me cray cray !! : )
It does make more sense with consumer cameras. You can’t see 50 megapixels on Instagram.
This is perhaps the most brilliant video I have seen from you guys. Very well done and as an IT expert and former software driver/OS designer it makes perfect sense. I also believe the mix of OS level comms throughput and computational photography w/AI functionality will continue to make it even more challenging to be a professional - which I believe is healthy. What set Ansel Adams apart during his time, and what will set the next level pros apart in 10 years? Fascinating stuff - well done!
You made me recall the Samsung NX1, so ahead of its time also with its version of Linux as OS and many of the features you describe. Thanks for always providing such a professional and practical insight on this technology.
Samsung showed how easy it is for these big operators on the cusp of technology to suddenly get bored and just walk away in an instant leaving everyone high and dry with little widespread commercial backlash, especially now with the dedicated camera user database being so small.
Ok, I made it through the video and you asked for feedback. I absolutely hope you are spot on. It's about time camera interfaces moved forward from the current menu structures to smartphone like convenience....as long as they keep the photo centric control of our equipment up to us in that transition. 👍
I'd love to be able to search the bloody complicated menu system of of my R5. I don't have the kind of brain that remembers settings that I don't have to use frequently, and I've definitely missed shots in the field just because I couldn't remember how to toggle a setting. Menu search would simplify that drastically.
@@bill.j.pearce Menu search...definitely gets my vote, especially on Sony cameras with a gazillion options and settings!
As a developer of 50 years experience and having built very large and very complex projects, I agree with you totally. It boggles my mind that some camera manufacturer has not just bought complete cell phones without cases or integrated cameras and just integrate this into a camera. Dual processors, one for the cell phone and one for the camera.
What is curious here is both Samsung when they were making cameras and Sony (NEX-5N) with one of their first interchangeable lens cameras, used graphical operating systems to control the camera. Additionally Olympus and the Alice camera project which straps a normal cell phone to a camera module.
Sony has two others techniques which will change the industry, stacked sensors with a global shutter like the Nikon Z9 and Z8, which makes cameras much less expensive due to no mechanical shutter, and dual layer photo diodes which double the light gathering area of the sensor increasing its sensitivity by one stop.
I have a Samsung Galaxy NX which is basically a interchangeable lens camera with Android built in. So yeah; ... it existed before. Loved that thing! Unfortunately never really broke through, which meant not a lot of lenses available for the system. If they made a Sony A7V with that included; i might have to buy a secondary camera to my A7IV
Samsung tried in 2013 with the Samsung Galaxy NX. From what I remember of the reviews everybody loved that it was more modern with the WiFi/3G/GPS connectivity and touch screen. Directly post your photos from the camera to social media, the camera itself was just a modified camera app. I remember it because it made me almost regret buying my a6000 at the time. But then Samsung closed it's camera division right after it's release so we never got to see it become more refined. I've pretty much been waiting for another company to do the same, because god damn we are in the past with the OSs of these cameras.
I was about to post the same. You could even have an Android photoshop in as well and do all your image editing genuinely 'in camera!'
But the technology and the market were nowhere near ready. Samsung closed its camera division because it was losing money. Right idea.....wrong time.
Many experiences of taking my Canon camera gear on vacation and becoming bewildered by the point and shoot brigade of tablet/smart phone shooters. While I am chimping exposure adjustment up/down to cater for bright/dark subjects, difficult lighting situations - they just hit the button and the end results on tablet screens are simply astonishing. I have asked the question, many times, as to when the camera manufacturers will develop the algorithms that can provide a similar capability. I found your detailed explanation of the benefits of using Android as a camera Operating Platform to be fascinating and your future prediction for Sony cameras to be very plausible.
The point of a dedicated camera is that you have total control over the exposure and how the image looks. If you want the camera to create instant results, just use a smartphone. Buying into a dedicated camera system and lenses would be a waste of money if you just wanted the camera to do all the exposure work for you.
canon has HDR mode
Tony I think you are absolutely right. The only point I diverge is which consumer group will they introduce an Android based camera. I do not think Pros will be the first market. I think it will be V-loggers and Prosumer groups to test the water. Some Pro photographers will pick up a Prosumer grade camera and love it or hate it. Either way they have protected their Pro lineup while they gauge acceptance. Honestly Canon will use all their marketing power to kill a platform like this because once it happens every lineup is under threat if people love an android based camera. Samsung was the first to attempt it but they didn't go far enough and shutdown their camera division.
Sony already have alpha cameras running android. The a6300 and other cameras that era, had android operating system and supported apps. You could buy the timelapse app from Sony. The firmware were broken, so we know it was running android, there are third party android firmware available for that camera. Then Zeiss released the ZX1, which I'm sure Sony had a lot to do with. It could be they needed a test hardware they can develop on. So all current alpha cameras either running Android, if not then Linux which is Android is based on. So they can already use all the Android/Linux drivers for things like WIFI 6 or Bluetooth or 5G Modems. The reason Sony have bad wifi, is that they are cheap on the processor/system on chip. They use old manufacturing processes with old ARM cores, because it's cheaper, and probably consumes less power. So the functionalities missing are hardware limitations. To make a true Android camera, they need better processor, better screen, much bigger battery, they need to solve startup time, basically look at the Zeiss ZX1 for problems. I'm skeptical about this. Especially since they introduce new features, like the new AI chip autofocus which for sure required a lot of development time. They also made a lot of features for ZV lineup, with smart framing and all that. It seems to me they are full on developing alpha cameras and not holding back. Android camera especially one with internet connectivity, would require security updates and Sony is really bad at firmware updates. They don't want news like Sony camera hacked. I'm not convinced if they are doing it. If they come up with it it will not be a professional model, as professionals don't want to deal with all the shortcomings of such a new camera, they need a well oiled machine. My guess is a high end enthusiast camera in the $3000+ range.
Sony has an Android subsystem to run said apps. The camera itself does not run on Android. Big difference.
The problem with Android is that it takes ages to boot. The camera would need to have a backup battery to keep the ram alive when swapping batteries.
You do realize that the early a7 series had a android subsystem and did allot more than they do now.
You could leave your camera on sleep mode to turn on instantly.
Hibernate works for battery swapping
That's a whole phone operating system. This would be the equivalent of a powerfull camera app... It doesn't compare
Say, like an OS for daily use vs for web server, they may be of the same brand but surely won't be the same features. Say, Android TV, surely you won't/can't do texting or anything you would on a phone with it, so it should be a lot lighter and quicker to boot.
i wanted this since the Pixel 3 launched... seeing what computational photography can do with that crappy tiny sensor was mindbending... Think about where we are now... still small sensors but they can put out some serious image quality - scale that to an APS-C or Full Frame sensor. You'd never think about ISO noise again, shoot ungodly HDR... If thats whats comming we're in for a treat...
I think they will introduce it back to the lower end since those users are younger or enthusiasts. The ZV line is already starting to show that with all the auto functions and deleting buttons and dials. I don’t think pros care but the higher end cameras will start to adopt certain computational things. It needs to happen soon because cameras have reached a peak and they’re all the same now since they all caught up to Sony. I think the 7s4 will be the first pro-ish camera to have some computational to further divide it from the FX line. Buying apps and upgrades to directly download to the cameras would also be a welcome addition. Then maybe Sony could keep the body prices relatively low and make profit on software in the long run.
The previous revolution happened on the 24MP A9 - the next one will go to the A9Mark3 or parallel.
The hype is when we'll apply our LR Ai presets in-camera. Essentially the photos will come almost fully baked. +Ai Sharpening, +Ai NR, +Skin smoothing, +beauty filter, + Ai Sky replacement (When blown out) + auto upload to the cloud - All these will be a big game changer. A photographer finishes an event and texts a gallery link to the client on the spot. Done!
Dayum. Imagine
Only when well done. Us high Enders will become more valuable.
Skin smoothing is never professional
@@000CloudStrife women wants and needs skin smoothening. Period. It should be subtle but it should be there.
@@nagual2335 haha not the way you think it is approached. That will always be unprofessional.the person who first taught fs on digital media even says so.
@@000CloudStrife Man I don’t know what year you live at.. this is 2023. If you’re a professional and you photograph women you would have known that. Do you shoot professionally? Do you do events?
My wife had an Xperia 1 (don't remember which mark) and I did notice the extended pro mode in the camera app, the separate videography app, certain menu things that I recognized from Sony's cameras. I also had a feeling they were working hard to either bring their camera experience to smartphones, or working out how to make android do the same things as a camera does. Also, my wife said it was a perfect phone for photography and media consumption, but it really wasn't very good at making phonecalls. She literally said that Sony's focus with that phone was probably not in its usefulness as a phone
It never was 😈
Which "phone" focusses on being a phone? On an iPhone you even cannot reject calls. Nobody complains because nobody calls anymore.
@@phelanwolf6747 I will tell you, cheap smartphones are better phones than flagship phones. I have a Poco M4 4G which was really cheap, which makes good photos in daylight, it has an oled screen that is very readable in bright sunlight. Before this I had a Poco X3 NFC, which had a slightly less easily readable LCD screen, but a better camera. Both phones are also excellent for making phonecalls. I don't game on my phone at all, but I hear they're not bad. I now use my Poco M4 as a work phone and it is reliable as can be. The look on my wife's face when I could do anything with my cheap phones, while here flagship failed repeatedly.... I had flagships before, they all lasted shorter, had design shortcomings. Poco/Xiaomi make a lot of designs for other brands, by now they will know best what works and what doesn't.
I see boot time as the only problem. We want the camera to be ready to go when we turn it on. This can maybe be fixed with a sleep mode, but every time you change the battery, you'll have to wait for it to boot.
@@Tegneaufreak And what do you think happens when, oh, I don't know, you take a battery out?
Second battery? Maybe one built-in battery and one changeable battery?
But what about boot? The camera would need to be always on, because it needs to function instantly. But unlike phones, a camera might be in a drawer for a week, so the battery would be flat. It would need to be either dual battery or dual system, so the enhanced functionality boots in the background after shooting has begun. Probably both because it can't reboot every time you change the battery.
Good point. A "smart camera" would probably never be able to match current "dumb cameras" in terms of battery life, assuming similar size and battery capacity. Reliability is another concern. On longer hikes, I'd find a longer battery life more valuable than smart features. Or so I think, at least! I have a feeling that this will allow dumb cameras to stay relevant.
The camera itself can be an app. The app is constantly updated cause its integrated in the smartphone, and once the app connects, the camerasettings are refreshed and/or updated.
Images on the camera can automaticly send them to a cloud.
Having developed software in Japan, I have observed and thought about the issues. To me it would appear that both the culture of consensus based on seniority and the grueling number of hours taken to memorize a writing system with over 3,000 (out of a set of 30,000) commonly used unique characters, the level of independent and out of the box creative thinking is not only not there, it is actively discouraged except in some very forward looking companies. This makes them wizards of device software or firware and not so great at creative apps. One of the few actual software developers from Japan with an international market is Sony with its video editing software.
I totally agree that Japanese culture is a big challenge to moving towards more sophisticated software... I discussed it some here but I'm interested in your take since you lived it first hand: th-cam.com/video/JKMsjXs4uq4/w-d-xo.html&pp=ygUdd2h5IGFyZSBhbGwgY2FtZXJhcyBqYXBhbmVzZT8%3D
I believe Japan is trying to correct this. They're investing more in Computer Science education. Hopefully camera manufacturers can be part of this shift, but I'm not entirely sure they will be.
Know a few younger people in Japan that had tried to “improve” things, a few years later they were basically broken and are basically “just waiting until the seniors at work die off to maybe try again”. At the same time they often realize that with the years they are likely becoming like the previous people in charge.
The recently crashed Japanese Moon lander is wishing them all the best ;)
I’m sorry about your experience in Japan but Japanese is a beautiful language and a platform for some of the most beautiful creative work. Japanese literature and language is replete with lateral thinking. Yes, the process of learning Japanese is grueling, and especially hard on left-handed people. But the conclusions you draw from that are…racist. Yeah that’s the word I’m looking for. Racist.
@@The_CGA I can‘t say anything about the Northrups’ statements, only Japanese people I’ve personal experiences with and that critique has nothing to do with race but with the prevailing workplace culture that’s suppressing progress.
Technology generally moves too quickly to try to apply the same standards as in traditional arts and crafts - leading to disadvantages for an entire society and unnecessary fissures between generations.
@@TonyAndChelsea Not really likely to be corrected - it’s the essence of the culture . I’ve lived in Japan and have traveled there dozens of times. Read about Bushido. In Japan there is a kata (form) for everything. Martial arts, drinking tea, lighting incense - everything has a form. I play an instrument called the shakuhachi (Japanese bamboo flute)) you are taught the instrument and than taught to play a classical piece. When you are proficient you get a harder piece. Never encouraged to write your own music or how to think creatively . Mastery is judged by how well you can copy a classic. There is no bell curve in Japan
As a tribal society who claims “the tallest nail gets hit down first”. It doesn’t promote independent and creative thinking. The skill of the society is improving Whats already there
Samsung tried doing this 10 years back! They bailed out, let's hope Sony pushes through....
I've been saying this for the last few years. I remember many many years ago going into Best Buy and Samsung had a white camera I think it was like 12 megapixels or something but it had Android built into it and I wanted that camera so bad. It was called the SAMSUNG GALAXY camera And this was like 12 years ago when smartphones were just really taken the market by storm!! I think I remember the Samsung Galaxy Note line just coming out with their second model right around that time because I went out and bought the Samsung Galaxy Note 3 right after that and have had an S Pen ever since attached to either my phone or tablets. But that aside I want hundred percent agree Tony that if anybody can pull this off it would be so nice. I'm a huge fan of Sony even though I shoot with a Canon R5. The reason I went with Canon is because I am definitely not a rich person and even though I'm making money with photography now, I still working full-time management job. I can honestly say that I am a great photographer and editor because I've worked very hard over the last four to five years Non-Stop perfecting my craft. And that means working 10-hour days and coming home and studying 4 hours to 8 hours every day whether it be something in Photoshop, Lightroom or or something to do with better composition and Lighting. Now when I started out I bought a Canon M50 and some EF=S lenses which in time graduated to all EF L-series lenses. And then the Canon EOS R that I picked up used. About two years later I hated that camera and bought the Canon R5 and have really loved my photography game ever since. Now I still have DSL ours like the 90 D and the 5D Mark 3. But if I'm going to go out and being serious about something I'm taking my Canon R5. That's just the world I live in. NOW what Canon doesn't have is a smartphone company when Sony does!! That's what definitely gives Sony the edge when it comes to using the Android platform for cell phones. And one of the original reasons that I got into Android over APPLE was it was an open-source platform and we were ROOTING our phones back in the day. If you don't know what that means 85% of your phone is usable to you but 15% of it is locked down for user apps and things like that. NOW when you root your phone you have 100% access to put anything on your phone that you want if it's compatible with the Android system of course. So we would ROOT our phones and of course block all the ads and take off all the bloatware immediately. You can also take for instance the Google Phone and put it on your Samsung Galaxy! So this could POTENTIALLY mean that that my with my wife's old Canon RP, we could FLASH the Canon R8 software and REFRESH the life into it!! IT WOULD MAKE THINGS SO MUCH BETTER FOR US CONSUMERS EVEN IF THEY LOCK THEM!! Because they ALL can be unlocked through the Bootloader!! Then we could make the Android part FASTER, BETTER, OR NEWER!!! But moving on and back to what you said I 100% agree that Sony has this in the works because they are the one manufacturer that has always stayed ahead of the game and they are the one manufacturer that already has all the Technologies to do so. Also, kudos to Sony for making this week that should have been done 5 years ago. We as consumers are way behind the times even with are mirrorless cameras. We're getting big sensors and megapixels but we're getting shitty technology when it comes to or menu systems and like you said in the video sharing files which is huge for a photographer. Also that would alleviate some of the stress of backing up our photos if we could back them up immediately through the Android platform. So there are many plus is over minuses when it comes to Sony doing something like this. Anyways thank you for taking the time to make this video and Chelsea you look as beautiful as ever. I hope you guys have a blessed and wonderful day
I didn’t read this until now, ten days after it dropped. So, wow! Tell me as soon as the SDK drops! I can see, for example, encrypting and signing photos (although that might require something like Apple’s Secure Enclave holding a different key for each individual camera). It should be possible to guarantee that a picture was taken by a certain camera at a certain time and location. I can see some possible applications in specialized areas, such as camera traps, etc. Also, Tony, when were you at Microsoft? I was there 1988-94.
I always thought consumer drones and action cameras would be the first to employ this type of Android operating system, but it makes perfect sense that high-end cameras would be able to do it first.
I am sure you are probably right , however don’t you feel we as photographers are becoming increasingly a less important part of the process? The more capable the camera tech is becoming , the more I feel that “anyone could pick up this camera and get great pictures”. I am becoming increasingly less interested in photography as the technology takes away the challenge of creating a good picture using skills learnt through experience. I have been taking pictures mainly sport for over 50 years , now retired and nothing on the new tech cameras gives me the same satisfaction as nailing an exposure and focus on a fast moving object manually. Sure you couldn’t compete with the current pros and the high tech cameras they use now but it’s just not the same satisfaction process. Or is it just me who feels this way ?
If experienced photographers are not going to use or appreciate this move it may make more sense to implement first at the lower end. But a flagship implementation would create more splash and panic with the industry. Does Apple have a play here? They are in automobiles.
I know what you are talking about! But at the same time- I like, that I can take my phone and get some pretty good shot.. so if I would be able to get same result with phone as with camera- I would NEVER use big, chunky, inconvenient camera.. I mean- why would I? So yeah.. concept of photography with introduction of AI and computational photography is slipping away pretty fast.. I am sure in 10-15 years typical cameras and photographer as a profession will be obsolete.. that's just the way it is!
@@Serenity_Soundscapess yes sadly I agree with you 😞
@@Chris-13 I don't really understand what the problem is, you say that you're retired, so why not make images using whatever tech inspires *you* personally the most creatively?
A few years ago I noticed under grad & post grad art/photography students, increasingly making pictures with anachronistic tech and going back into the dark room; Brownies, SLRs. Others got hooked on using Polaroids. Their work stood up exhibited alongside people using the most recent camera tech and CGI - the results are just different, individual; subject, style, mood, ambience, impact etc.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that the tech used isn't necessarily the most important thing in artistic endeavour.
Heck, sometimes the results aren't even the most important thing; if the anticipation involved in developing what you might have caught on film gives you joy, even if ultimately images aren't exactly what you wanted, just do it anyway.
@@tytesseract it’s exactly that , it’s not really “your” creation . It’s tech creation.
Something like this is needed right now, but the OS implementation must be very robust to reach relaiability levels of current Professional cameras compared to a Smartphone
Well I have been kind of doing this very reliably with my DJI Mavic... the mobile App has never let me down on either iOS or Android... and of course it plugins and controls the remote and the drone (a flying camera). Whilst DJI don't make high end cameras the principals are already being widely and successfully used.
Lol, didn't zeiss already did it and nobody's talking about it?
Back when I finally bought a mirrorless camera and stopped shooting with my Pixel 2XL(which I loved and only replaced last September!) I asked my software engineer son about this exact issue. Why the heck don't cameras have a better OS? It was especially on my mind because I am a Google Suite/Workspaces user and have been since day one. I have asked the question of other camera TH-camrs and in other online forums(FB, IG). Like someone below I suspected it might be Samsung. But, the possibilities are endless once it happens. You are spot on with the speed of image transfer and automatic backup to Drive or another cloud service. Also, the ease of pushing updates becomes so much better. Looking forward to something that should already be in place!
I am not convinced of the history. Sony made a leap because they offered 4k when it's competition didn't. The autofocus of M50 was decent in 2018 but non of the big cameras was offering that smart autofocus.
If canon released the 1dx3 early with all its video quality and autofocus, DSLR would have survived.
As for smart cameras, I don't think the competition will be behind that far. The canon r/r5/r6/r3 managed to catch pretty fast.
The delay in offering 4k is what made people leave canon and Nikon and coming back became difficult coz people had invested in the lenses for Sony.
wow, Tony. This is a sensational video.... kept me at the edge of my seat the whole length. I can see part of it is because you've been frustrated with regular cameras. But it all makes sense. Kudos for your analysis.... you are truely at the top of your field! Very inspiring.
Though the benefits probably outweigh the drawbacks, I can see Sony releasing a camera with no memory slot, instead with onboard memory, like 128 gigs, similar to a cell phone and then tell you you should get cell service for your camera and it will backup to the cloud automatically. Then Sony will partner for a Cell service (like Apple did in the beginning) and provide you tiered paid cloud storage. This way they get steady stream income. They will also make you rent features similar to Adobe's current model for editing software.
sounds like a nightmare for people out in the field that are off the grid
So thats why I can't get a firmware update for my A1
The A7R2 and the Sony cameras around that vintage were based upon Android OS from memory. The pros where the apps that were available in camera to ease certain shooting situations. The cons where the cameras were a bit sluggish. The A7R3 launched end of 2017 ands ditched the Android OS replacing it with a custom OS which had nippier response times, but sadly lost the apps.
I thought it was a great idea and then they dropped it out of the cameras.
@@ivankiefer3886 I only experienced it for 3 days on an A7R2 that I had on demo, & what I had read/watched online about the 'apps' - it did seem like a good idea, & some of the apps I was particularly interested in. But I decided not to buy the A7R2 after demo'ing it - it did quite feel 'there' yet for me. When they launched the A7R3, I had a short play at a camera show with it when it launched & it had addressed all the minor issues I had with the A7R2, so I bought an A7R3 at the show, so never got to really experience the power of the apps, as the A7R3 didn't use an android based OS.
@@TheLDunn1 that will be nice to see a camera with those capabilities with the new hardware. that could be the reason to upgrade my dear a7iii that i love so much. but sometimes i do want it to be more like a phone than a camera, when it comes to the software side.
@@ivankiefer3886 I love the idea of being able to add apps to assist with certain photo taking situations. However, I am concerned that moving back to an android based OS whcih would permit such apps, could potentially have an adverse effect on camera start up times & general responsiveness of menus etc.
I had my previous TV for almost 20 years when I realized that I wanted a smart TV, not because the previous TV was broken, but I thought it was time for the switch. I bought an expensive Sony AndroidTV, a great TV with great picture quality and many great features. But after only 4 years, the TV became completely unusable due to the updates that Google had released for AndroidTV. The remote responded very slowly, and the TV itself was not that fast anymore. When I pressed channel 98 on the remote, the TV first went to channel 9 and then to 8, so the only way to watch channel 98 was to go through all the channels one by one until I got to 98. That's how slow the signal from the remote was processed. For this reason, I used the TV provider's App to watch TV, but also to watch content at a later time. Then Google decided to release a new SDK, and my TV provider completely rewrote its app with this SDK. With this new app my Sony AndroidTV then became completely useless. My TV showed a quarter of the picture across the entire screen, so the channel's logo and newsreader's head were large, but the rest was out of frame. Changing channels took me more than 5 minutes. In short, the TV was completely useless after almost 6 years. The TV provider blamed Sony, and Sony, of course, did not respond. But the problem, of course, was AndroidTV, aka Google. Hardware manufacturers that use google in their equipment always remain dependent on Google and their updates. New features in software often require faster processors, making older hardware unusable. The quality of my Sony image was still fine, I didn't really need another TV. I have had my current SLR camera for over 16 years, and it still works extremely well. From the many firmware updates, it never slowed down, it only got better. When the Sony cameras start working on Android, that time will be over, and they will become more or less "disposable" cameras.
Sony are definitely doing this but I don’t think they’re after Canon and Nikon. I think they’ll build a Fuji/Leica killer. They’ll build a retro looking camera with a massive sensor and all the smart phone tech you mentioned. This will be a grab at the hobby photographers. Lots of Pro guys already have Sony anyway. Then when this is out they can keep taking stabs at Canon/Nikon by drip feeding features into the pro cameras and holding tech back once again. We’re almost at the point where the sensor is big enough, so to sell more cameras to pros theyll drip feed tech/AI and workflow improvements.
It does not make any sense to go after a minor competitor like Leica, they are probably not even being observed by Sony: Too insignificant.
Sony's strategy has always been aiming for the mass market.
@@phelanwolf6747 Fuji retro cameras seem to be selling for more secondhand than new, which suggests there’s a market for the retro end of the market. The Fuji is the current camera for people who won’t/can’t stretch to the Leica Q series. The camera market is shrinking year on year, but there is a market for ‘cool’ cameras. I think they’ll target this. Guess we’ll see what comes down the pipe. Looking forward to seeing whatever it is👍
I think something to remember is the hardware. I’m sure they can’t fit m.2/msata Wi-Fi hardware with a decent antenna inside these cameras and also allocate processing power to run it. I just don’t think all the hardware is there to run the camera and all the other processes while being able to cool it and keep the size reasonable. Also it has to be able to power it with a small battery. I don’t think we’ll ever see 400-500 MBps over cameras Wi-Fi. However I’m sure we can see a huge improvement over 1.2 Mbps haha. Maybe they can add a third chip just to process things like HSD. Just think of your phone being able to be it’s current size with a FF sensor inside it. I do agree the software will definitely help a lot and may open the door to better hardware. Just have to power, cool and keep it small/light.
If the camera you use is the one you carry, the next Sony phone will have 5-axis IBIS and burst abilities, while their capturing will base on the volume rocker/ power button, or a dedicated rocker which will serve as both AF on + tracking, with different focus modes, and maybe an enlarged buffer.
Idk if this is a joke or not but sony Phones are doing pretty much all of that for years. If it is not a joke I am sorry.
YOU GUYS ARE AWESOME! BRILLIANT! KEEP UP THESE KIND OF CONTENT PLEASEEE
Tony is onto something, but I disagree with Chelsea. If this materializes, it will be in an enthusiasts model, not an A1 flagship. Enthusiasts will be all over it, but the 'pro' market likes tried and true technology before banking their livelihood on it.
I have had my Sony Xperia 1 mark ii for the last three years. I have absolutely loved its camera approach. The full manual control and natural colours plus physical shutter button. I thought then and still do that Sony was setting out on an interesting path and deliberately doing something different. And imho with the Xperia 1 mark V it's now starting to pay off. The mark V will definitely be my next phone. The dual layer sensor, the A.I, and physical glass variable lens built in added to the aforementioned manual control, natural colours and physical shutter button.....is a great combination and a unique experience in terms of a smartphone. Hell......even the reviews are generally really strong. A first for an Xperia.
I have no idea if Tony is right or not.....but I think he may be onto something. Will be fascinating to see if this is indeed Sony's master plan.
I don't know why but that reminds me back in 2014 when sony launched the QX1, it was an amazing idea to make APS-C sensor with E-mount attachable to a smartphone. Of course it's not that simple to make such product a compelling device though but a couple of years ago there was a project called alice camera that had a similar idea with much more refined features that make it more of a camera than an accessory that also uses ai, advanced chipset and utilize smartphone's android in lots of good ways and that could be the future.
This makes so much sense! There has been a converge of technological advances that make a smart camera with improved AI tools, on board image storage, faster processing, much larger buffers, cloud image storage, and improved connectivity all possible. It will be a quantum leap forward in photography and videography.
Would be nice to have programmable cameras and open source code that you could modify completely and create modules and actual custom modes, instead of the pathetic customization in today's cameras that just let you choose between a few existing options.
Things like seamlessly changing settings like shutter speed based on subject / focus tracking speed to get a much higher success rate. Or automatically "exposing to the right" to get the highest signal-to-noise ratio, or selecting aperture to have entire subject in focus and so on.
I think that's a lot more useful than "AI" and all the other buzzwords that companies try to use to replace people rather than improve the tool itself which is very dumb and has no awareness of anything, like how some settings would conflict and get disabled and the error message is vague and useless...
Kinda like a box camera but internally xD
Like that idea. Would love to see an open source camera that runs on something like a beefed up Raspberry Pi and that you can add and replace hardware to.. Personally would like to have more choice with aspect ratios. I’d love to have one like the kakemono.
I love photography. I started learning film photography at university in 1990, 33 years ago, using a full manual Konica camera that I took from my father. The only thing that needed a battery was the light meter. I shot in black and white and had to develop my own film and print my own pictures. I'm a lazy photographer, so I hated the dodging and burning in the lab, standing for hours, and the smell of the chemicals. After university, I had saved some money, so I bought a Nikon F90, but with starting my first job and all, I never used it. It was only in 2013 when I bought a Canon 70D that I started taking pictures again, but I hate Photoshop and editing (the lazy photographer in me). With the rise of smartphones, I fell in love and taking pictures and editing them became so easy. In 2014, I attended a landscape photography workshop in Lebanon with my Fujifilm XT1, which reminded me of my father's camera. While the 11 class participants were setting up their tripods, I used my iPhone with my three lens attachments. 😂 The instructor made fun of me (he was a dear friend). I told him he didn't have a vision and that phones would eventually outperform cameras in the future. He argued it was impossible due to the size of the sensor and the quality of the lenses. I insisted that one day in the future, phones would use different technology that would overcome the sensor and lens barriers. Just to drive him crazy, I said, "like calculators, cameras will die." 😂 I added they would only remain for professional photographers, etc. However, after watching your discussion today, I changed my mind. I think Sony or camera makers might provide lazy photographers like me with smartphone capabilities on a camera body, and that would be a dream come true.
Fun speculative video guys! I agree that cameras running something like Android is a likely future, and based on the analysis you presented it looks plausible that Sony is actively working towards this. I do question whether things like faster file transfer, or somewhat easier live streaming, or theft deterrence are the killer features needed to wow consumers.
Computational photography as it exists today may be compelling with things like big dynamic range improvements and improved low light performance being top of mind for larger sensor cameras. Focus stacking/depth of field mapping could be interesting for it's ability to delivery lightfield like features, or potentially 3D rendered scenes.
As you mention meaningful AF performance gains will likely start to plateau and become less of a brand differentiator. So where are the next killer AI features? I think it could relate to image workflow. It seems for high end cameras we're getting closer to cameras that can continually capture high-res raw images at 60+ fps. AI will likely take a larger role in selecting and editing photos and videos from this huge stream of data. Android on the camera could be great for this if lightroom was integrated on the camera. Imagine a camera that an event photographer simply has to point in the direction of the action. It picks what to focus on (or focuses on multiple things per second), what settings to use, AI edits the photos and videos, and delivers a package of near-finished photos and videos covering that event in almost realtime. It probably sounds like a nightmare future for some, but how many sports, wedding, and event photographers would switch to that system?
Android was originally a camera software.
I disagree about the importance of transfer speed. And I don't mean just the raw MBps, though that is absolutely a huge factor. Image transfer desperately needs to be made into a convenient process: fast, automatic, and reliable. That, more than anything else, is essential for dedicated cameras to regain relevance to the general smartphone-using public.
Think about the steps between a scene you want to photograph and literally any use case for photographs: capturing the image, transferring the image to another device, editing the image, then finally publishing the image in some way (be it social media, print, computer backgrounds, cloud storage, email, etc).
Out of all of those steps, the single most important one is transferring the image to another device. Even if a camera has perfect, literally mind-reading capabilities such that you never have to edit a photo ever again, the images it makes are completely useless until they can be transferred out of the camera and published. And even if a device (phone, tablet, laptop, desktop) has perfect, literally mind-reading image processing and publishing automation capabilities, it can't do anything until it has the images.
Juggling expensive memory cards, buying and having the right card readers and/or cables with you, connecting and disconnecting WiFi... Transferring images has a LOT of friction that takes skill to overcome, and not everyone can (or even wants to) invest the time to develop that skill. Even those who do will find that it's still a barrier to eg sharing photos in social situations. Then add in the fact that some kind of editing is often required to get a pleasing image. Any one of those things can be enough to make someone decide "nah, my phone camera is enough less painful to use that I'm good with that." And the market has spoken; point-and-shoot camera sales are shrinking every year and are but a trifle compared to smartphone sales. The only reason ANYONE is still using dedicated cameras instead of phones is because of the superior image quality and composition capabilities. It's somewhat like preferring carefully processed coffee beans to canned grounds. It IS qualitatively better, but you can get coffee either way; it's just a matter of how much effort you're willing to put in for the quality you get.
If image transfer can be made as easy as "plug camera in, wait for a popup/ding, unplug camera" - or even have the camera auto-connect to a phone over WiFi (negotiated over Bluetooth so that the camera can either get on the same WiFi as the phone or directly connect to the phone) and instantly wirelessly transfer every image - you can offload everything else to other devices that are better suited for image viewing/editing/publishing, with their bigger screens, more inputs, bigger batteries, more compute, more connectivity (eg LTE data plan). You can have one or more apps take action: auto-hide blurry images (and even auto-delete them after N days), compress dynamic range, combine image stacks (HDR merge, focus stacks, turn rapid bursts into short videos), show a notification with a share button, add images to the phone's gallery, auto-upload to cloud (or private) storage or some other publishing target, etc etc etc. These apps can be auto-updated and cloud synced and so on.
At that point, do you even need computational photography on the camera? Make the dedicated camera be the highest quality and second-fastest (a close second) way to get image data into a phone or other device.
Or you can go even further and make the camera good at every step in the capture-to-publish pipeline, but that means having a giant screen (like the whole back of the camera, maybe with an over-screen tactile surface to make up for losing buttons) and actual social media apps on the camera.
I have always had a suspicion that Sony held back the mirrorless camera prior to the A9 to give Nikon some time to catch up as they are a sensor customer but for some reason Nikon were the last to bring out a useable AF system on mirrorless.
In regards to this smart camera I would only be interested in one if I can upload to Instagram and Facebook quickly like I currently to with my iPhone 12 Pro Max, coincidentally a Sony customer. And as a finally trick somehow allow power zoom and exposure compensation to work while live streaming in Instagram or Facebook. The live stream controls are limited in the social media apps and nowhere near what the native camera apps can do.
I absolutely agree. Every time I turn on my cameras I'm like: android would be excellent in these.
Also with an android OS you might be able to further customize your Aperture, ISO, and shutter speed through "micro adjustments". Like instead of shooting at 1/50 SS you can shoot at 1/51, 1/52 which wouldn't make a difference in all situations but may make a difference in some.
1st, I think you're right. 2nd, the negative side for sony is that android devices are easy to side load and change code in the OS. We could see a GH2 situation where the camera is hackable and new features that they didn't intend to be in it are added by their users. We'll finally get shutter angle and scopes lol.
Or the Magic Lantern for Canon EOS used by Hollywood on the House Series and some other Movies.
ML still exists and is even better. I use ut for the EOS M. Offering 14bit Waveform Anamorphic on such a cheap used camera like the EOS M and higher end 70D and 5D Mk3. This would be great actually.
To use Android and computational photography in the cameras is so obvious that I waiting for it last 3 years. Still not there, let's hope Sony will crack it finally. As it will give us infinite dynamic range, proper super-resolution and AI improvements right in the camera. Also many other stuff that phones already have for years.
Why bother taking pictures at all ? If it is all computational/Ai technology based ?
You don't need android for computational photography.
@@ktcool4660 you do if you don’t want to sit and wait for an hour for your current camera software to process one photo internally
waar is mijn vraag ??? s.p.y ???
😢😢😢😢😢 trait0rs
One thing I wanted today on my camera from Android is a settings menu with search. Don't have to learn where each setting is, just get up the on screen keyboard and search for it by name and the system will show you where it is. No reason it shouldn't match against synonyms and even accept typos and misspellings.
I thought about it as well as soon as I saw how they started to position their XPeria phones at the same level as Atomos devices and the likes. There’s definitely a converging path there. And I think the both of you are on a good lead here 🧐
Without going already into presets, one big life / time saver would be using AI for culling as typically wildlife/sports/concert photography are time consuming for the amount of shots taken to sort. That would be the biggest game changer for me and the argument which would make me switch from Nikon. Anyone who can give me back that wasted non creative time will have my attention. Until then I’d be probably still very suspicious about such smart camera technologies until battery management has been addressed and eventually handled for a few years. With the ML technology, we’ve already lost considerable battery lifetime vs DSLR, so I guess we would take a a bigger hit with smart camera there(??) To me readiness on the field in terms of battery & the practical side of it all will always have priority over the rest. For that reason I wouldn’t be maybe as optimistic calendar wise as I do not believe they’d be able to put able on the market such a smart camera with high connectivity & AI functions with a satisfactory battery life in such a short period of time as ML has already reduced our battery life by a good two thirds. Unless they can solve it with better software … so many questions way beyond my knowledge 😊
Good point about battery life
They should make a generational change in battery technology to make the AI etc without a penalty in battery life
Maybe Android is energy efficient??
Great ideas Tony and Chelsea. That's a logical direction to see a photography company start using computational photography. Every company has their own unique style of how they iterate products into the market. For example: Apple does the same thing (with computers, iPhone, etc). Apple protects their market innovations from being discovered and discussed until they actually release the product. Market innovation is their goal. And, of course, Apple is developing new stuff all the time (all of it secret). They are likely developing even 3 generations into the future. This is a huge piece regarding how they make money. Innovate, release, innovate, release... Sony also has the right to keep some developments, if not all developments, secrets. Most camera companies will "leak" information when their product is close to going to market. As many TH-cam channels predicted, "Nikon is going to likely die". The Z9 was a perfect example of Nikon having a strategy for marketing prior to release... Nikon no longer has a physical shutter. That's a first. As you pointed out the "Nikon Z9 now matches a9 AF". The Nikon Z9 made all of us pay attention, maybe some of us delayed our purchasing decisions for other brands.
Will Nikon or Canon hire Samsung to reinvent the NX
I watched this for the first time about a week ago and for about a week, on and off, I have been thinking about it. All the issues that you've raised, about what a camera doesn't do well today (file transfer, blue tooth, GPS etc) is not just a matter of operating systems and software. Hardware plays a very significant role in this and that hardware includes processor, memory and something you really didn't talk about - power (battery).
The cameras that we use today use processors designed to interface with very complex sensors and not only move the information from the sensor to a buffer, but then move that same information to a slower memory card when it has time to not do all the other things it must manage in the camera system. Phone chips were designed to do things that phones do such as interface with cellular networks, occasionally move data from a photo sensor to a memory chip, play very graphical games on a much smaller screen than what my camera manages etc. Putting Android, or even a subset of Android on a camera is not as simple as you make it seem and it might not even be the solution.
In order for your Android on a Sony A7RX to work, you'll have to make a whole new processor(s) to carry the load of the camera and Android. You'll have to provide enough memory to store not only my pictures in a buffer, my camera software which restarts in a sub-second every time I power on, but also must reload the Android within that same time. Remember when digital cameras first took several seconds to start up? Can you imagine a digital cameral taking the time it takes your phone to start up from a power off situation?
And the final challenge to Sony will be in the power arena. I can hardly get 300 exposures on my A7RIV from a fully charged battery now. What are they going to do when my battery now how to power GPS, Bluetooth, fast WIFI ........
Northrups, you are correct. All the things you mentioned are features and functions that we would all like to have in our very expensive cameras. But the most important feature I want to have is to take extra sharp, high resolution pictures with fast accurate focus, and fast click rates. I'm not willing to sacrifice any of that. That is what I expect from my camera. The other features will come as processor, memory and battery technologies advance. But I'm not sure Android on my camera is a solution.
Only time will tell. I too remember the 68000 chip (I remember its precursor, the 6800 - both made by Motorola which I don't think is in the chip business anymore). But those days are long gone. Thanks for you great work. The future is looking brighter and brighter.
Speaking as an Android developer, it's not just the OS, but the hardware as well. Tony's correct about the availablity of device drivers, but to get good performance you need a good CPU and GPU. These are certainly available, but powerfull CPUs and GPUs consume more power, therefore battery life may be hit.
I understand that some of the earlier Sony Cameras did use Android such as the A7R2 and A7S2, you could download apps onto them. but the OS was not used for in camera processing of photographs. So power consuption was not so much of a problem (although those cameras did have rediculously small batteries).
But battery technology is improving, so it'll be interesting to see what happens next.
I can see this coming on the ZV line. The rest won't be as fast to reach there as they're used by professionals mostly. Also, having presets for photos would be a game changer as well, like being able to use LUTs on the FX cameras and Lumix cameras.
I have been hoping for years that a company would use an Android OS on a camera body. I have stayed with DSLR because mirrorless has not inspired me to change, but the freedom that an Andriod camera could deliver would be too appealing. You are spot on It would revolutionise photography if Sony are doing this now, the only way I can imagine Canon or Nikon doing this would be to team up with someone like Samsung or Panasonic(which probably is impossible), and combine technologies.
Next step then is to double the price, of course. 🙂
The a7iii wasn’t double the price.
Nah, they’ll stay competitive, they have to
@@mepe6809 - they didn’t do that with the A7iii. They could have, but did not.
Fun fact: Android was originally developed to be a digital camera OS! Also, I think Canon and Nikon will simply partner with someone rather than develop in house. Who knows, maybe Google themselves with sign a megadeal with Canon?
I'd love for Google to partner with a camera company. I always wanted Google to buy Nikon's imaging division and combine Japanese craftsmanship with American software skills.
@@TonyAndChelsea I would love that as well. Selfishly I would prefer Canon since I'm invested in that system 😂
So you assume that sony who ditch android around the time of 'when they got good' because they could not get it to work (thats why we lost apps) will now ditch their current linux pure system and go back to android ? Seems unlikely even if i do see a logic from merging their phone and camera work. You do admit they had android on all sony cameras before right? Also the core of android and sony camera os is the same linux and the drivers are available the story you are giving here is simply not true. Also WAY more devices use linux than android (as a extra layer) ... Can there be value in doing this yes but you make it sound black/white and its simply not... example blackmagic stuff can do live streaming (swichers for example) and they are not running android... and i am 99% sure blackmagic just installed/licensed the needed modules. You make this argument every few years in the hope you will be right at some point... its a 50% change i guess they will return to android again but the reason then simply was it can now be done instead of their first android try...
Running various apps on top of custom Linux would require more coding than just reuse Android from Xperia and enable use of many apps and already in house developed code. Makes sense. Also from life cycle perspective. They won't have to maintain and integrate new features, just the UI and drivers. Remember the times when Unix was king (all vendors had a tight integration HW+Unix flavor)? Where is that now? I'm looking at Telco radio networks, now you have OpenRan and the entire industry is shifting there. Kubernetes, the same. Even Risc V might take over the ISA. Juniper was using their custom kernel on top of BSD, now they have migrated to Linux. I'm with Tony on this one. Price, features and development speed + specialized workforce and dev platforms(developers until recently were hard to get).
I think you are making a solid argument. And I am a little sad about this because I see many issues that can arise from this.
1) Features maybe even hardware-features locked behind subscriptions
2) Limited integration and openness to app developers
I believe you are 100% right! I personally assume they will focus on AI and perfect results straight out of the camera. Enhance the workflow! Likely we will see a new file format, than just RAW and jpg like high res jpg?
I like your ideas and you are perfectly right about the new generation, that are much more familiar with the up to date technology. I think you are also right about earning more money by selling apps, presets,….
Why is he 100% spot on? AI is not true AI and if it's close then it will take away photography jobs that take talent and professionalism. Fake enhanced photography will do what to the industry? It's only a gimmick.
Does the camera have to have the main operating system on board?
Suppose that most of the code lived on your phone and did the heavy lifting and only the (admittedly complex) essentials were dealt with by the camera system?
I want to believe, but Sony's PlayMemories android integration and nerfed in-camera menus are just cap. I mean, unless, they are deliberately crippling that too 😅🙁😒
The Northrup-damus of Photography - If not in the works, the next generation cameras should be identified as the Northrup Visionworks.
[BTW it's kaisen and not kaiser as written in presentation -Typo needs fixing / Tony said it right though]
Nikon could always release a D7600 with updated sensor, flippy screen and dual card slots. I'd buy it, regardless of what Sony is doing.
I’m on the same page with you on this. It will be a game changer. I think there will be some reluctance from older shooter and newer shooters will embrace it. Of course the GAS crowd will buy it because it’s the latest and greatest. I think the only reason we don’t have 5G connection is because the companies see no need for it. With attention on Vloggers as a new growing market that will change soon
Makes total sense. I think it’s A1 II coming 6 months after Canon R1. Also makes sense why they have been so bad at the firmware updates lately. Software teams are working on other things not bringing updates to A1.
I think the camera you are talking about is based on the Samsung Galaxy EK-GC100. All of the features you mentioned were in this camera. The only thing the Samsung lacked was cellular connectivity.
Tony has an extensive tech background and is generally very well educated. IF Sony isn't doing what he says, they should give him a phone call (and a check) for his good ideas.
Exactly my thoughts.
Think about how cars use Apple and Google. So this makes sense. But also keep in mind how you do have to reboot your phone when it hangs? An OS implementation makes sense but it will make the camera more expensive.
Why just Sony? I think most camera manufacturers know they HAVE to compete more with smartphones by implementing many of the same things that current smartphones can do such as computational photography, easy transfer of full rez files, security, etc., but with the added advantages of mirrorless cameras and interchangeable lenses, maybe even some voice control. It’s inevitable that they start adding those things whether some pros choose to turn most of them off or not. I think it’s very likely all the big players have a new camera OS in development. Some may be further along than others but I don’t think any of the big three or four manufacturers are that far behind one another and they all likely know what the other is up to.
He's talking about Sony because Sony is the only camera company that also makes smartphones. Canon, Nikon, Fuji, etc. don't make smartphones, don't have smartphone divisions, so they are at a considerable disadvantage.
Just watched this video AGAIN. The future Sony camera you describe is interesting. But what's even more compelling for me is watching you think through the puzzle of the evidence. The surprise leap of the a9 focusing. All the recent pieces that don't make sense till you put them in this context. It's nice detective work compellingly presented. It is a joy to watch you go through the logic!
I think you are correct reading Sony’s recent email for the Xperia 1V “With its next-generation Exmor T for mobile sensor and computational processing, the Xperia 1 V delivers picture quality equivalent to Full-frame cameras with less noise and wider dynamic range in low light3 and videos with cinematic colour expression.” Why would Sony not use that computational processing and smartphone firmware in its next generation of Alpha cameras?
For over 5 years many Sony cameras have been running Linux and have been capable of using Android applications. People have even hacked into them to run their own android apps on the cameras. The software they run is not highly primitive and if they wanted they could easily use wifi 6. The camera industry has always reused old components to save money. That's why we see the same screens/viewfinders and even buttons/joysticks and even body designs for years.
Samsung tried an Android camera a few years ago but I believe they stopped because they didn't think it would be profitable. If they'd kept making large sensor cameras they'd probably be the market leader today.
Galaxy NX (i have one ... great piece of equipment ... just not a lot of lenses available for that system).
th-cam.com/video/9B1BJCe-8mI/w-d-xo.html
Samsung (perhaps wisely) decided to focus on cameras in the shape of smartphones and they've had a ton of success with that. They left the industry just as it was turning downward. I don't think that choice necessarily implies anything about the operating system of one of their many cameras.
Be interesting to see if Apple decide to team up with Canon or Nikon.
@@TonyAndChelsea they released the Galaxy Camera, which operated on Android, in November 2012. Their cameras were very good and well ahead of their time. Now, over a decade later we're just seeing another camera manufacturer (hopefully) with an android camera. At the time I couldn't understand why photographers didn't jump on that tech or why other manufacturers didn't copy them? Now that I know how diehard some photographers are about brand loyalty and how arrogant certain manufacturers are I can see why Samsung's cameras didn't take off. Everyone clung to their DSLR's and refused to even contemplate a new manufacturer introducing new technology! No one took mirrorless seriously until they had to play catch up. Sony deserves the top spot and I hope they get it.
Substantial metal in premium camera bodies is problematic for 100x bandwidth improvements in RF performance with FCC Wi-Fi constraints.
Well, smartphones do it. You just accomodate antenna into the design. The Z9 has a GPS module built-in and it's about the most solid camera you can buy and GPS is about the most easily blocked type of signal.
The Xiaomi’s 12S Ultra while barely more than a concept already struck very close to this. It has a detachable Leica lens mounted to the phone body. With top end mirrorless sensors now going shutterless we might see a scenario where the mirrorless camera actually becomes a phone. Agree that it would be a big advantage move for Sony.
The Sony a6500 for example already has Android running on it. There are several apps that can be installed on the camera like a time lapse tool and an upload to a NAS...
Great podcast. Aren't DJI already doing this with their Drones. I can't use my drone without a mobile phone and App. DJI make flying cameras and they are pretty useless without the computational prowess of an Adroid or iOS device. It kind of baffled me years ago when I first bought the Mavic Air that dslr cameras didn't have the same powerful computer features or plugin features and control via an App and how mobile phones were out running dslr cameras in terms of computational features. Of course Tony is right.... it's the dslr legacy proprietary software and chips.... they are way behind. If Apple or Google made ICL cameras they'd be a two piece system... hardware (lenses sensors, etc) that interfaces via the mobile and App... like DJI do now. Makes sense.... down side another landfill of old gear and a drain on the bank balance.
“Hold things back from the consumers” is very much Sony’s approach. That’s why I just bought a Panasonic S5ii X not a FX30 or the Z whatever. I think lots of us have been wondering when phone computational photography would come to cameras. Integrating Android makes sense, but providing the reliability that professional photographers/DPs expect may be a very real challenge. Edit: one problem for a big dumb corporation is that they may shoot themselves in the foot by “maximizing revenue” like demanding a monthly subscription for the camera to keep working.
As an amateur photographer who is also a programmer I'm currently using a7rIII having "upgraded" from a canon Rebel T1, a little sony point and shoot digital before that, and Minolta x-700 film camera before that. When I saw the attempts made in my a7riii to integrate with apps on my phone for things like gps metadata and controlling the camera via an app over wifi I thought that this was the direction they really needed to go but was not implemented very well. it uses very old/slow wireless tech. Current gen android processors would go a long way in solving that issue. I really hope that they go this direction if only to speed up the interface to external devices. Think of what you can do with a relatively open system where the camera itself is very capable on its own, but becomes even more powerful when pair with an external /up-gradable compute source where the camera is treated as a powerful peripheral device. 10 years after you buy this very good optical peripheral, you upgrade your phone, tablet , or laptop to something with an order of magnitude more compute, memory, storage capabilities.
I largely agree with this whole video but disagree with the point made at 5:21 because in 2018 Canon did not state that mirrorless was not a real camera system. That’s the year they launched the EOS R & the RF mount. It was not years later.
I wrote Tony an email about this in 2019 where I imagined Apple would buy out Panasonic and put their phone photography technology into the Panasonic bodies with a Micro Four Thirds sensor. I imagined walking into our local camera stores where we would see Apple cameras in cabinets next to Nikon and Canon. What I didn’t see was that Sony was better suited to do this as they only needed to bring two existing divisions into alignment, rather than squire an outside business like Panasonic or Olympus.
A sim card slot with ability to have social media and basic editing apps built right into the camera would benefit the quick turnaround times for smaller projects that don't require advanced editing
Some time ago, I asked myself this question and engineering should be done to cover the system's longevity. Today if I use a digital camera from 10 years ago, it works perfectly. Still, if I use an old Android, the hardware is not compatible with the operating system, and old phones end up being garbage in our drawers. Just saying.
As someone who use to use Samsung Smart Camera, it was soo powerful to have google photo's full suite of powerful effect, filters and the fact I have all social media app, google drive...etc diretly on the camera. I used that camera far far more than my DSLR until the day my camera died.
Now a question for you. Why go into all this trouble with a focus on professional cameras? Phones by far outsell cameras. Shouldn’t the focus be phone first, not the other way around?
Interesting theory... I'm inclined to disagree in that Sony can't afford to sandbag now. With all three leaders having a healthy offering of mirrorless bodies and lenses, the companies need to compete on value and specs. Considering the huge investment people make into a specific system, it's going to take moving mountains to get them to move systems. The cameras being released today are sufficiently advanced that no photographer can honestly say that quality images are being held back by technology. Any improvements are going to be "nice to haves" versus "game changers." There will be a healthy subset of customers for whom price is no object, but I think the majority of folks who are enthusiasts or pros establish an efficient and effective workflow within their systems and aren't necessarily drawn by what's new and shiny.
Of course, the possibilities with AI are pretty compelling, but going much further in cameras will render the human being unnecessary... kind of takes the fun out of it 😉 I am right there with you suspecting that android powered OSes is the next frontier - I am much more compelled by having camera companies add in features like faster transmission for a quick LR mobile edit, or anti-theft systems than massively high frame rates or soon to be 16K video. They can do a lot more with technologies that already exist by leveraging the strengths of smaller and more powerful components to free up space. What I don't agree with is that people will flock to the system from others because of it. Maybe folks new the the camera markets will be swayed, but this is all assuming that Canon or even Nikon haven't been pursuing R&D here. The time frame between those releases would be a matter of months, not years... especially with AI being able to carry a lot of load for developers.
Time will tell, of course. Interesting podcast as always!
One missing part of the puzzle here.. the processor, al computational photography depends on the snapdragon processor, so to adopt Android they have to adopt Arm based processors and to adopt Arm processor, one problem remaining.. can Arm processor work with that huge pixels and data coming out from full frame sensors?
Higher level programing usually means significantly less efficient processing.... However I would love to be able to program a shutter and processing sequence.
You both are one of the few channels that legitimately mention and care about the future of cameras (ie actual hardware/software evolving to survive and appeal to the next generation).
Because if not, the future of photography will be cellphones. We can see the seeds already.
Few points here: 1. It would be by a factor of 3, not 1000?; 2. Cameras’ brains are not slow or primitive, eye AF is a demanding feature to process.; 3. New “smart” cameras would need an antivirus protection installed :)
Yes, yes, yes!! I was eagerly waiting one of big 3 to introduce a smart platform like Android. You just need $200 more in chips. But, obviously we know how much the software division of Sony, Nikon, and Canon lacks. These companies are still hardware focused companies. Compared to Apple or Google, they are literally caveman, literally. But, hopefully, Sony finally invests into a smart capable platform.
Ah, remember when DSLR cameras came out and it was being said "will never catch on" 😂. Fast forward...
The more things change the more they stay the same.
I get around the connectivity issue by having an SD card reader that plugs into my mobile.
Snapseed now has RAW develop functionality.
For social media posts it's so much easier than getting the middle man involved ie the MacBook!
I think you're spot on there has to be something more seamless in the pipeline but the market has to be ready for it. Exciting times!
I've got an Xperia 1 II phone. The Photo Pro app is even weirder than just being always in landscape mode. It's technically always in vertical mode at an OS level - you have to swipe from the short edges of the phone to get the notification shade, or from the long edges to do a "back" gesture. But the text in the app is all oriented parallel to the long edges. So it's portrait mode but it looks like landscape because the UI is all built sideways.
If you plug in an external monitor it always shows as a narrow picture with sideways text. Not ideal.
Interesting point about holding technology back. In the Leicasphere, the D-LUX 7 can do all sorts of things that even the new Q3 cannot. I wonder if the in-camera processing of RAW files is something that Leica is going to spring onto the other Leica platforms at some stage if they feel threatened by something from another manufacturer - I started programming in 1974 on mainframes and if the libraries exist - as they already do with in-camera RAW file processing because they already use those libraries to produce the jpeg files that the camera also outputs - then it is not too much effort to write a bit of code that uses the existing menu production libraries and marries that with the jpeg processing libraries to make the camera do in-camera RAW processing so you can make several jpeg versions of a particular shot or tweak it or whatever. Look at the in-camera processing on the D-LUX 7 (they are only around £1,100) and it is very impressive so why not have that on the Q3 or the SL2 and SL2-s or the M cameras and so on. We know it works and it improves your workflow as you can do all of that in the field without visiting a laptop and send it to your editor in one go (I do this - it works).