The "accidental" (negligent) discharges were not then....or today caused by a shorter trigger pull. They are caused by having your finger on the trigger when it shouldn't be.
Besides, the Revolvers are notorious for having very long trigger pull spacing, making them more capable of accidental left or right pull, but, when ya know how to grip up the gun correctly, it is totally possible to overcome in a flash and make it rain bullets, 6, real fast.
Single-action shooting means slower shooting. Double-action or heavy trigger pull is also more preferred for self-defense when you have to point a gun at a bad guy, and he has a knife. You don't want to accidentally kill him when he is not charging at you.
hoppinggnomethe4154 Single actions are just as “fast” if not faster than a double action is and they don’t fire if you don’t pull the trigger..it’s almost as if you’ve never held a revolver in your life 🤦♂️🤣😂
I think there's a misuse of the rules, that a specific rule can be used as an excuse for dubious decisions anywhere there isn't specific rule against it. The trigger becomes inconsistent, when you're just trying to find the trigger to touch it instead you're swiping through thin air and when you do touch it the slightest touch can release the sear. When normally when the trigger is this far back the resistance is highest. This is a problem because people DO place their finger on the trigger after they have decided to take a shot but before they have actually aimed. LG's FBI marksmanship series raised an interesting point, where if there is a complex course of fire then it simulates how mentally taxing your situational analysis must be in combat, you need a very simple and intuitive manual of arms that you can perform intuitively. Your reaction time cannot be impaired by the reaction being a binary choice between SA or DA fire. The decision of whether to shoot will be hard enough as it is.
I enjoyed the video and the history lesson. Before I write anything, let me point out I was in law enforcement in the eighties and early nineties carrying a revolver, and then spent the nineties and the first half of the 2000 decade carrying semi-autos. I can shoot very well with either or, but my preference for my current citizen carry and home defense is a revolver. Now, as far as single action - once again - I am proficient with a revolver at close quarters and at ranges up to 25 yards with double action, and that includes snubbies. However, past 25 yards, or taking precise shots from behind cover - single action has it's place. It is helpful if you have a hard primer that fails to fire in double action. It also lends itself to one handed shooting from a distance. So, whereas I mostly train with double action - I still feel single action capability is an extra "ace in the hole," should you ever need it.
I agree, and is the reason I bought my 638. I have quite a few revolvers and I like to think that I'm fairly proficient with them all. I shoot almost exclusively DA but I do like having the option of SA for when and if the situation calls for it, as I find that I can be much more precise with longer shots when time and circumstances allow for SA. With that said, I carry my 640-1, because I like the all steel weight, and/or LCR, because I like the trigger (bought it before the LCRX came out), as much or more that I carry the 638. As far as the whole "snagging" hammer spur thing.... I thought the same way, waaay back when I bought my first defensive revolver, a DAO SP101. Time and experience has taught me what others have already said, with proper draw technique, it's a nonissue. At least for me. But, I suppose there is always the possibility that it could get snagged on something BEFORE you were ready to draw, and that could impede proper technique. That's why I chose the 638, shrouded hammer for snag free, and still retains SA function when I want. Win-win! From a dept. liability standpoint, I get it. In fact, I have a DAO police trade-in model 64 with bobbed hammer. I later bought two more that were traditional DA/SA and like them better. For civilian use, outside of some paranoid fear of a litigation claim that you fired in SA and caused a ND, I see no disadvantage to a DA/SA revolver that outweighs the potential advantages.
@@michaelc3416 My first S&W was the 638-2 (pre-lock). I bought it used. It has served well as a light carry gun when I didn't want the encumbrance of a Glock 30. There is an all steel 357 Magnum version which is the model 649. I have one of those also. Sadly that one is a lock model (although the lock seems to have fallen off when I had it disassembled for cerakote work (bye bye warranty). It's 7oz heavier than the 638 but with magnum advantage. The real downside though is that it doesn't fit in my Kramer pocket holster for the 638 due to the heavy barrel. I currently use a DeSantis Nemesis holster for it.
While I definitely don't possess the experience and credentials you have, I wholeheartedly agree that practicing with double action is necessary for self-defense, but the single action capability can prove to be beneficial for longer-range shots.
If the intruder or assailant is within charging distance, about 15 to 20 feet, I would opt for the dbl. action, which I should practice more often. I intend to. But the single action is used to provide the most accurate shot, especially for the regular gun owner, as opposed to the professional gun owner. I think one of the main reasons why police abandoned the single action is because the officer would have a fully cocked revolver, and forget that it was cocked, and accidents occurred.
Retired Philadelphia sergeant here, went through the academy in 1967. We were trained in both DA crouch at seven yards, and SA out to 50 yards. There’s a time and place for both. Over 22 years I trained myself in proficiency (and speed) using both. My SA became so quick, that when I took the updated “live aggressor “ training in 1989, the instructor was sure I was shooting DA from the draw. I was not. As you continually mentioned, it’s all a matter of practice, which is what I did. If you have time to take the revolver out of your holster, you have time to cock it on the way up.
I'm glad your comment happened. It turns out there is a time and a place for both single and double actions. There is no way the gun has to not be cocked. It is always more accurate single action. Double actions on some revolvers can be terrible and hard to correct or improve. For non-cops single action is best.
I guess he thinks an average shooter doesn't have any trigger control I thought that was one of the most important things taught was trigger control so why would you accidentally shoot a gun that's bancock when you have proper trigger control
@@presidentgateway lots of us were trained to draw with the thumb on the back of the hammer so that's not really an issue. what bothers me is the lint issue with pocket carry - the hammer is just one more way for dirt to get in.
My first pistol was an old Smith and Wesson J frame 38 revolver. It was a very easy pistol to conceal. It has a hammer, and I read about the problems of drawing a gun like that and having the hammer snag. I wasn't willing to bob the hammer, so I simply trained myself to place my thumb over the hammer when drawing, and I never had a problem with it snagging on the draw.
Any 4" or especially 6" revolver could also be useful as a hunting gun. Keeping the ability to shoot a hunting revolver as single-action makes that gun much more useful in that dual capacity. While I've rarely practiced with any of my revolvers in single-action, I like to practice a little bit that way in case I ever wanted to use the gun for hunting. Another point is that if one were injured during a gunfight and could only use one hand, particularly the non-dominant hand, having the ability to use a defensive revolver in single-action would be a tremendous benefit. At that point, there's no question of not shooting if the opportunity arises, and the lighter, shorter trigger pull would make shooting in self-defense easier. In terms of concealed carry, I love the Smith & Wesson 642 with an internal-only hammer. I like the look of the gun, and I like not having a hammer snagging on things. I hope that I would never have to hunt with this gun, so single-action for hunting wouldn't be an issue. If an injury forced me to shoot one-handed with my left hand, I'd be angry that I didn't have single-action as an option, but I still like the Model 642 enough that I choose this gun for concealed carry. I realize that you get more clicks by making absolutist statements that will outrage some people, and those clicks may bring money or maybe just advertising for your store. However, I disagree with the absolutist approach of this video. I appreciate the research that you've done and the history that you've presented here.
@@knifedance2402 Even so, the absolutist approach is foolish. One never knows when a firearm owned for self-defense purposes might be needed for hunting purposes. As I said in my original comment, one may end up shooting one-handed in a self-defense scenario because of injury. Shooting with the non-dominant hand is much easier if one shoots in single-action.
A lot of people’s “defensive revolvers” are really “outdoors revolvers”, that have a more generalist role. They may be used for game getting and pest elimination as well as self protection, and they therefore benefit very much from a DA/SA capacity. There will usually be a few seconds to cock the hammer and take deliberate aim at a marauding coyote that pops up 40 yards away. Indeed, once we’re talking about anything bigger than a J-frame, this type of broader mission is probably more common for a citizen’s carry revolver than a role strictly confined to self-defense. (People seeking purely a self-defense weapon, who can carry a K-frame size gun, might as well get a compact striker 9mm pistol.) Hence it’s practical and reasonable that most revolvers come with a hammer.
As a general rule in the firearms industry: Having options is better than having none. Modularity is important to a lot of people, like having piccatiny rails on semi auto pistols. SA is FAR easier to use if you are using your pistol for literally anything other than self defense, which (contrary to the tone of this video) is going to be the vast majority of the time you pull the trigger on one of these pistols. You’re either going to use it to shoot paper, steel, soda cans (or other fun mediums) or game before you’re ever going to use it on a human being within rule of law. If you don’t like SA, don’t use it, even train to ignore it - but to say removing the option entirely is better than keeping it so you won’t trick your brain into using it detrimentally makes absolutely no sense to me. SA/DA makes a pistol able to be used for target shooting and/or hunting purposes as well as self defense. Removing SA just stripped the gun of its viability for other, more realistic uses.
No, that isn’t a rule. In fact, if any rule has developed, it is that fewer options are better, because you’re likely to spend too long considering them in high-stress situations. Ever wonder why a lot of military rifles lack adjustable gas blocks? Why semiautos are so often SAO these days? Why CCW pistols so rarely have a manual safety? Simple! The more functions, the more stuff to get between you and firing the gun, the more chance there is that human error enters the equation. Generally, when civilians lose armed encounters, it’s because they weren’t fast enough. It’s basically never because they were out-ranged. In fact, I’m unaware of it ever happening. The point is that DAO revolvers actually have physical advantages over conventional revolvers. Advantages beyond the question of training. No hammer spur to catch on, nothing to let debris enter the action, one less thing to get grabbed and make the weapon inoperable, (which is far more likely to happen than some 60 yard SA shot). DAO revolvers are just better for concealed carry.
I’m all about options. I bought a .357 magnum revolver for a wide range of caliber choices, and I bought a double/single action for the trigger pull choice.
Being 70 YO. I have shot revolvers all my life and my first shot will always be single action. Drawing and cocking the hammer is combined in one motion after that it's game on and over. I generally believe that shot placement is the most important thing if can't make a precise shot on target I won't take it.
Chris, on a side note, could you do a video on how to shoot a short barrel revolver better, like you did with small pocket pistols. I have no problems shooting fist size holes at 10 yards with any good CC pistol, but double action j frames it looks like buckshot.
Those are some good tips. Grant has a lot of solid revolver info, but I assure you, he is far from being the "last of the revolver gurus." There are still plenty of retired-LE guys around who have done some very extensive field work with revolvers, and they have a great deal of valuable knowledge to share.
Fair enough, until I have the cash to travel to a class given by a Cunningham or a Clint Smith I'll just have to make due with being the only revolver shooter in a given course.
I bought my first handgun in 1995.It was at a long established gun shop in my hometown.I didn’t have any idea at the time of what I wanted,except for something small ,an deadly.I had the salesman select three for me,an lay them out in a roll.Since I was unfamiliar with any handguns I just eyeballed them over a few seconds,an asked the salesperson some questions, simplicity ,handling,stopping power safety an prices.I still had no clue what to select even after questioning the salesperson should I buy an automatic or a revolver.All three were appealing choices to my eye as I held each to get some feel of handling.As i continued I noticed a gentleman next me looking at several handguns spreaded in front of himself checking each one an it’s features meticulously.As I looked at him he said hi an asked if i were familiar with handguns.I told him not at all, an this was going to be my first purchase.He kindly asked me was it for carry or home defense.I told him home defense,an he told me (quote.....) I ‘m not trying to tell you what to buy,but if u are a first time buyer an operator I would recommend a revolver since it has a better safety system built in meaning the double action system.I told him thax a lot for the advice an payed an walked out with a nice.38 sp Taurus snubnose which fitted my hand so perfectly,The gentleman also told me it was a good quality firearm brand new for $200.00.I still have the handgun an I put a 100 rounds threw it when first bought.It is a model 85 an still looks brand new some 25 years later.
Back in 1970, firearms training switched to double action only. Most agencies in my area carried the S&W 15, 14, & 19. The Colts carried were the Trooper, Python, Diamondback, Detective Special and some of the old timers then carried the Officers Model Match. Many of these firearms had to be modified by the police armorer of LAPD because of their decision to make sure their guns can only fire double action. They eventually did away with Colts all together for some reason. So as far as I know, about the time I went on the job, the policy was double action only, however with our department we did not have our arms modified. Just a couple I know of in the LA area did. When the 80s came tooling along, most agencies were switching to the 9MMs El Monte & Culver City Police carried the .45 ACP and for a while there, Culver City allowed their officers to carry .45 revolvers. So I learned from the beginning to fire a revolver double action but I do own a couple of single action revolvers which I love to shoot at the range. .22LR, .357, & .45LC. I like the ability to shoot single action on occasion with my double action revolver but in a self defense mode or posture, the thought would never enter my head to use single action unless single action was what I was carrying at the time. This video does make sense and handled a shooting once where an accidental discharge by a security guard ended up in the suspects death. If he did not use single action, the suspect would be alive and he would not have lost a civil suit which will take half his wages for life. No criminal charges were made but the civil suit wiped him out for life.
I was ready to defend this to the hilt (or pommel) as I am a pretty ingrained SA shooter with my Chiappa Rhino, but your points were concise, informative, and well investigated. I will be reviewing my technique and probably taking a revolver class going forward.
I may be the only 24 year old in the world that carries a Single Action Revolver in 45 colt in a short 3.5" barrel with birds head grip. Your opinions are sound and I respect them.
As a long time handgun hunter I sure realize the benefit of SA accuracy of a revolver at 50+ yds that you could never do shooting DA so while a cop may never need to shoot that far why remove that option in the slim chance he may need it firing at someone behind cover.For a cop I'm sure the bad guy isn't always at 15 ft in the open.
Great video, very informative. Tom Givens once fired my model 65 upside down with his pinky double action and shot the q dead center that is in the top corner on the q target.
A long, long time ago I shot in police competitions. Our competition revolvers were Smith and Wesson model 15s and the action job included removing the single action notch so they were capable of only double action use. A distinct advantage of a double-action only revolver is that the action can be much smoother and lighter when it's dedicated to only one mode of action. For a revolver that is dedicated only to self-defense, I can't dispute your point. However, one of the reasons people buy a revolver is for versatility and at least in their (our) minds, losing the single action function takes away some of the versatility of the firearm. Your point, although valid, ignores some of the psychology of why people own specific firearms. Even though I essentially agree with you, none of my revolvers are double action only because sometimes I like to thumb the hammer back and take a shot at something fairly far away. My self-defense revolver is also my hiking/fishing/small critter hunting revolver and I don't want to lose the single action capability. My solution is to do almost all of my practice with the double action function trusting that when I can cock the hammer and take my time I'll do at least as well as I did in my training.
There is a great use for manually cocking the first round . I deer/hog/varmint hunt with a Ruger Super Redhawk 44mag . Getting that feather light pull with that first shot is far more stable & for me , more accurate . Double is great for a follow up if needed , but for that "cherry shot" I'm cocking that hammer .
Been shooting since 1987 when I went to the police reserve academy used a S&W M-15 in .38 Spl, by 1989 was using a Ruger P-85 in 9mm, today still using a 9mm for my main job with the state in a Beretta M9( issued a military weapon). The course of fire is still set up for a revolver even though only a hand full still use them. The Styles have changed over the years, but the job of getting rounds on target hasn't.
my first revolver was a single action black powder when I was a teen. I learned to shoot single action. when I got my s&w j frame, I elected for the model w a hammer. I like the option of both.
Very good video. I have a S&W Model 10 SA/DA and a 64 SA/DA, as well as a snub nose, hammerless. I practice DA only with all of them. Your points are right-on.
I think a single-action capability extends the practical range of a revolver if you are caught in a longer range situation, especially if using magnum rounds. A double action only design can make it a bit more difficult to land shots on a more far away assailant. However, it is indeed opinion. I just prefer to have more control over when the hammer falls.
Oh and nice work on the .38/.357 research. I have been looking through that data for 2 days lol. I recently switched from Remington 158gr. LSWCHP+P to Hornady 110gr Critical Defense. The old FBI load was good in my 4" but I woried about the performance in my snubby. I think the new loads will work a bit better in both. I always keep a speedloader of Full power .357 158 gr Soft Points handy in case I need more penetration.
Good points. In law enforcement, we are taught to use double action only, so I am trained that way. But I still prefer having the single action feature. I often carry a Smith model 638, which has a shrouded hammer, but retains the single action ability. I practice double action in combat shooting, bur still like having the single action option for woods and fishing carry.
@Lucky Gunner Ammo When I worked for a security company in the early 80s I carried one and sometimes two Ruger security six revolvers. I had them modified with better sights, an action job (a slight advantage in speed substantial advantage in a double-action accuracy) Magna ported, better grips, and I had the hammer spurs completely removed. I stopped shooting single-action altogether before I had my pistols modified and found an enormous improvement in speed and an insignificant accuracy reduction. If I could go back and change what I carried and the mods done to them the only thing I would alter is adding a hammer shroud if possible. One thing I would add is that I have, at times slept with a pistol in my bed (an old S & W with a shrouded hammer) and a pistol with no external hammer will not malfunction if it gets caught up in the bedding. In addition to that, the only auto I've ever used that I would feel comfortable sleeping with is an H & K VP-70Z. I agree with every point you have made in this video.
Note of Interest, when the double action revolver was first made its debut the trigger cocking mechanism meant that people considered it a single action as only one action was necessary to fire it, just pulled the trigger, what we now refer to as single action was actually considered a double action as you had to cock the hammer and then squeeze the trigger. It was shortly after change to incorporate what the action did the squeezing of the trigger both cut the hammer and let it down making it a double action whereas in the previous model the squeezing of the trigger only released the hammer.
Being proficient with any trigger fundamentals is mandatory. I still always opt for the best trigger when available for precision - that’s just knowing your equipment.
Good video and GREAT discussion! I carry an M49, and practice DA almost exclusively; occasionally taking some SA shots for fun and long-range practice. Staging the trigger to cylinder lockup, pausing to adjust aim then releasing the shot can be even trickier than cocking the hammer first. Another advantage of a hammer spur is when doing a rotation check. Pulling the hammer back until the cylinder can be rotated to ensure free rotation is MUCH safer than pulling the trigger back to unlock the cylinder, for obvious reasons. Even if a revolver is rendered DAO, a minimal spur can still be left on the hammer for this reason. Lastly, when lowering the hammer of a 'modern' rebounding hammer or transfer-bar revolver, if you let go of the trigger after releasing the hammer, the safety mechanism will keep the gun from firing even if the hammer slips--I just tried this with my M49.
When I was an Army MP we were trained and carried either .38s or .45s. While we were trained on single-action first shot we never used it in practice. The remaining part of our sidearm training was always double action for the reasons you stay but primarily nervous pointmen.
Great video. Makes the point I have stood by for many years. I carry a J frame most often with the hammer spur removed with my Dremmel. That spur was like a fish hook, easy to get caught up on things
i look at it as double action with single action as a plus. for self defense train often with double action but if you are plinking or for that odd chance where you would be justified at taking a longer range shot you have the single action option there
I have shot double action only for 40 years. I have read Masood Ayoob on the subject and recommend him to all. I can still hold 5 inches at 25 yards dao with a 4 inch fixed sighted revolver. I used to do that at 40 yards but even with strong glasses I have my limits.
I got mad respect for you bro. But in this case I have to disagree. I think its good to have both. My defensive snubby is a Taurus 85 (all stock, no trigger work or replacement grips), and I wouldnt consider using double action on it unless the target was advancing quickly on me and was almost within 5-7 yrd range. After putting hundreds of rounds through it, my muscle memory can cock the hammer back, fire, and re-cock the hammer, and fire again very rapidly. It just takes practice and muscle memory. As a huge fan of revolvers, I would never consider buying one if it was not single/double action. But I realize I'm in the minority here. Hickok45 shares your philosophy and bobbed off the hammer on his defensive revolver S&W model 65, and only fires it in double action, very accurately.
"...putting a hole where there should not be one is a lot more likely than picking off a terrorist at 50 yards." Hahaha! I really like the clear-thinking, minimize-risks style of this channel. Concealed carry is an enormous responsibility and incredible amount of power at your fingertips. You can certainly argue things the other way but his approach seems right on to me.
I'd put it this way: once the gun is out of your holster/pocket and it's grip is firmly seated in your hand(s), you are more ready to fire... Which is exactly the point of the whole thing (carrying the gun). Fact #1: liability issue is solved by training - always was and always will be; fact #2: single action for a notch better accuracy, double action for when you need to react on a sudden impulse (when you've got to "draw", so to speak).
As a counter argument when your revolver is a single and double action you have an advantage over just a double action because a double action turns and shoot a single action doesn’t turn first but shoots first so when a ass hole grabs your gun by the cylinder with a single and double action you can still fire by pulling the hammer back
Five years ago I completely disagreed with this notion. Now I completely agree. For self-defense there's no real benefit to single action, and not having even the option to use single action has real advantages like a snag-free draw.
totally agree, i was terrible with a DAO revolver until i practiced for a few months, now i shoot as well with that trigger as i do with a kimber, now i only purchase and shoot DAO revolvers. I used to think DAO was stupid, but only because I sucked at shooting DAO. Hickok45 shoots the gong with his revolvers in DAO and Jerry Miculek shoots fast and accurate in DAO, these aren't super human beings, they just practiced instead of gettinf butthurt
I'm sorry but I got a S&W 637 (with the hammer spur) over a "hammerless" j frame because I simply like the look of the hammer on a revolver. also replaced the rubber grips with wood grips. because all revolvers should have wood grips and a hammer spur
I was turned off to bobbed hammer's seeing some of the smiths. But then I layed eyes on a Ruger sp-101 2.25 inch barrel in 357 mag with a bobbed hammer doa . Knowing it's properties and it's beefy stature able to handle hot and heavy load's better ; it's my new favorite every day carry . It's extra material stock and caliber coupled with it's size makes it ideal for my routine My grocery store trips and nature hikes . It just feels far more durable and reliable then a polymer .
As a former 1500 PPC competitor I can honestly say that with many hours practice and thousands of rounds I was more proficient to 50 yards with a S&W revolver double action than a semi auto. Unfortunately neither type of handgun is legal now in the UK.
Depending on the single action revolver, yes....they are safer. Like any firearm, training is key. Single action revolvers require a considerable amount more training to become proficient with than a semiautomatic platform. If someone is willing to dedicate themselves to training with them, they should not be mocked by the firearms community for choosing such a platform.
I have big hands, but I'm a small guy. I have a hard time concealing a weapon that's large enough for me to easily hold. I have a small .38 that I chose specifically for its (now rare) single-action capability. With its tiny 2.5 finger grip, heavy pull, and long travel, and short barrel, it is very difficult to fire accurately when using double action. Single action takes what is an obnoxious trigger pull that is complicated by a small grip and makes it manageable. I had the same problem with my squirt-gun sized M&P Bodyguard .380
I’m surprised Ed McGivern and Bill Jordan weren’t credited here. They were right up there with Bryce, Applegate, etc. Anyway, I’ve heard this argument and I dismiss it. I almost always use Double Action when I am shooting and that is my first instinct. Maybe, just maybe, once in a while I’ll cock it to stay familiar with single action or shoot something at great distance. (50-100 yards) and I almost always use 1 hand as the old school guys typically did (it’s a handgun, not a handsgun). Once in a while I will use the weaver or isosceles two handed stance to be familiar. The older guys knew more than we. Had better double action revolvers too typically (find a good pre 1990s S&W or Colt and you’ll be surprised how smooth and easy the action is compared to most modern made DA revolvers).
If I think I will be engaging in close combat (like normal concealed carry) I carry a DAO snubbie revolver in a shoulder holster or cross draw holster. If in the field/forest I carry a larger DA/SA revolver in an OWB or flap holster. Different guns and different carry techniques for different situations.
He says that it's a danger having cops with cocked revolvers, funny as the same issue occures today as a Glock is nothing but a constant cocked automatic with the same issues of accidental discharges raised by 60%
I agree with you. The liability of getting my ass sued off and loosing everything I own in a civil suit is not worth having a "option". Ive asked an attorney from U.S. Law Shield months ago about this and he gave the same advice as you. I don't need a hammer and don't need to fantasize about shooting bad guys at 100 yards single action. Every training expert I've ever heard in regards to triggers has said to never go below 4 lbs in a carry gun. I guess if people are willing to take the risk... it's their money and their freedom.
Heavy trigger pull and a nervous situation are not good combinations. Training or not. A much easier trigger pull can be the difference between a well placed shot and a miss. I think there is still application for pulling the hammer back in many situations.
Pretty soon hopefully shooting technique will change more and instructors will stop trying to force every single last student to shoot with both eyes open, they don’t realize that there is a certain few who only see double vision that way (either double vision with targets or the sights). Some people can only shoot when closing the opposite eye, trying to shoot when you see two of everything is obviously not the best way for everyone in my opinion.
The hammer spur and single action feature isn't obsolete. If all new revolvers were double action only, there wouldn't be any new shooters getting into revolvers. Someone used to shooting a semi-auto can't just pick up a revolver and shoot it accurately in double action. Shooting DA accurately takes a lot of practice, too much practice for a lot of people who would simply opt for a semi-auto. So it's still very important that revolvers are SA/DA.
by Bob Nichols, 1950, Putnam. On my library shelf. Thirteen chapters, most of which seems to be filler. However, the good stuff is simply marvelous. Well worth the read, IF one is serious about self defense. For all those who proudly assert they have fired single action all their long lives and never had a discharge they didn't intend, good on them. I do not question that a bit. Sadly, that is not the norm. I've seen people - who should have known better - set off unintended shots in competition. Happily they were facing downrange and the shots were merely embarrassing rather than tragic, but it happens. One poster mentioned Wyatt Earp and Bob Munden. I met Mr. Munden when he was alive. Liked the man and was awed by his speed and accuracy with a single action revolver. However, he was set and primed to draw and fire before the signal to shoot was given - unlike a self defense setting - and accuracy meant popping a balloon at close range with the powder shards from a blank cartridge. Wyatt Earp - and other western lawmen - did in fact face down men who meant harm. The rules of engagement were quite different. In today's world (and legal system) he (they) would have been fired from their position at least and sent to prison at worst. After being thoroughly beat in pistol competition simulating actual events by several men using seriously ordinary revolvers - I had read too much Jeff Cooper and carried a Government Model - I realized I didn't know what they did. So I learned how to shoot double action only. Made my world far different. The result is I have an affinity for double action revolvers (largely older Smith & Wesson) and Government Models.
The potential for snagging a hammer on clothing during the draw is greatly, almost entirely, mitigated by using a master-grip on the revolver when doing so. During the draw, place the thumb of the draw hand over the hammer spur and don't start moving it around the revolver until clear of garment and the presentation has begun. This method works for any and all carry positions; AIWB, strong-side, pocket, etc. While DAO is the likely method of firing during a defensive shooting, removing the hammer spur is a solution to a non-existent problem with proper technique.
Lucky Gunner - no disrespect intended, but have you ever really seriously practiced (thousands of rounds like many of us have) with a single action revolver? Because I have and that’s what I’m best at and what I have. You may be awesome with your chosen tool, but if you don’t believe single action shooting can be extremely effective you need to look harder. It has a great deal to do with what you practice. Don’t you think?
Okay. But here's something. I have an uberti cattleman. a "colt clone" if you will. I wear that thing everywhere and it has saved my life before. I was hunting in SC and was caught off guard by a pack of coy dogs while gutting the deer. I killed three of them with that single action revolver by fanning, which is faster than double action revolvers. So while you are right about double action being useful in most situations, a single action can still preform well, if not surpass them in the hands of an experienced shooter.
Thanks for this. Safety is my #1 priority. I own two five-shot Rossi's. One of them is double action only. I'm going to sell the other one and get another double action only.
Bc with longer ranges the trigger pull really starts to affect accuracy so being able to pull the hammers back is still a very useful and nice feature to have.
Different revolvers have different triggers if you have a sweet trigger then dosen't matter but if your trigger has a heavy, creepy, and a long travel you are are better off single action
I agree, but I want both actions in my larger, dual purposes revolvers because I carry them camping, hiking, fishing and in wood walking and want the single action feature as well for longer distance, accurate shots.
He makes a lot of valid points, but I wouldn't say that single action is obsolete. The only thing that I would personally be worried about, after shooting single action only revolvers for a while, is pulling the hammer back habitually, and then paying for that habit in court because (in this hypothetical situation) I had a double action revolver. That would suck. And it's kind of why I haven't bought a double action revolver, because I know that I will pull the hammer back out of instinct. That being said, not to toot my horn, I can shoot a single action pretty quickly at any distance, as can anyone who's spent any extended amount of time with them. So maybe the video should be called "Why SA/DA revolvers should only be shot in DA in a defensive situation". I don't know, that's my two cents.
The NYPD switched from S&W model 10’s to a model 64 with double action only and a bobbed hammer in July of 87 for the very reasons that you mentioned. As soon as I switched to semi autos I must admit that I converted my mod 64 to single/double action. Great video, thanks
I use a single action Ruger as my edc. If you actually think I worry about folks with semi-auto pistols, you are very wrong. I'd like to meet that person who thinks he can get his weapon into play faster than I can.
TELL MATT DILLON THAT STUFF. HE’LL THINK YOU ARE CRAZY , TOO!!!!!!!!!! You are always more accurate in SINGLE ACTION. Only makes COMMON sense. Double action, about an inch of pull at at somewhere between 11to12 pounds. Single action,less than 1/16 inch pull at 4to5 pounds. You do the homework. Test tomorrow!!!! SHOOT SAFE!!!!!!
This video confirms my bias, so I like it. Another cool advantage of DAO revolvers you haven't mentioned, the hammer doesn't stab you in the gut if yo carry appendix style!
I would much rather have the option and not need it than need the option and not have it. That being said, the VAST MAJORITY of your practice with a revolver should be double action.
My taurus judge ultralite is dao and in a defensive situation youll most likely be only using it that way agreed, also it doesnt snag like my model 85, thats the best reason imo
Do a little reading about the Texas Rangers. They would get into longer range situations where they had to keep the banditos heads down with aimed single-action fire. DAO wouldn't cut it.
Couldn’t agree more. That is also why my carry pistols are true hammer fired DAO, as well as my carry revolver being DA. I shoot better DA than SA, so have to work on my SA technique, but do that with a single action only revolver .i think striker fired pistols are are just as bad as SAs under stress, and having to rely on a mechanical safety, to keep a cocked striker from dropping, is not a plus for me.
I think these videos are pretty well-put together. I agree, if you're going to use a wheel gun for defense, just practice with DA only. I still retain the hammer on my Model 19, really just to keep it stock and for nostalgia, but I never shoot it SA. In a gun fight, a real fight, you're just going to pull the trigger on the problem till it stops moving, you're dead, or you run out and got to do something (reload). Forget this single action business, that's totally out the window. If you're still alive to reload, you're just going to go with whatever muscle memory and equipment you gave yourself before the fight, and just go with it. I think suggesting people remove SA capability on their revolvers is kind of extreme, but I see why you would say that, and I may think that's a little too far (just don't fuckin' use it) but I see why you recommend that.
I'm using all your videos to get notions about how to handle firearms! I'm about to, maybe, get a permission to own a firearm and your videos are perfect!
I totally agree with you especially for small concealed carry revolvers like my Ruger LCR DA only .38 Special. With a gun like that you're not really target shooting but practicing for a defensive situation so DA only is the way to go. With my Colt Python, I mostly shoot single action because I am target shooting and I'm just more accurate that way.
The "accidental" (negligent) discharges were not then....or today caused by a shorter trigger pull. They are caused by having your finger on the trigger when it shouldn't be.
Besides, the Revolvers are notorious for having very long trigger pull spacing, making them more capable of accidental left or right pull, but, when ya know how to grip up the gun correctly, it is totally possible to overcome in a flash and make it rain bullets, 6, real fast.
Single-action shooting means slower shooting. Double-action or heavy trigger pull is also more preferred for self-defense when you have to point a gun at a bad guy, and he has a knife. You don't want to accidentally kill him when he is not charging at you.
hoppinggnomethe4154 Single actions are just as “fast” if not faster than a double action is and they don’t fire if you don’t pull the trigger..it’s almost as if you’ve never held a revolver in your life 🤦♂️🤣😂
I think there's a misuse of the rules, that a specific rule can be used as an excuse for dubious decisions anywhere there isn't specific rule against it.
The trigger becomes inconsistent, when you're just trying to find the trigger to touch it instead you're swiping through thin air and when you do touch it the slightest touch can release the sear. When normally when the trigger is this far back the resistance is highest. This is a problem because people DO place their finger on the trigger after they have decided to take a shot but before they have actually aimed.
LG's FBI marksmanship series raised an interesting point, where if there is a complex course of fire then it simulates how mentally taxing your situational analysis must be in combat, you need a very simple and intuitive manual of arms that you can perform intuitively. Your reaction time cannot be impaired by the reaction being a binary choice between SA or DA fire. The decision of whether to shoot will be hard enough as it is.
I enjoyed the video and the history lesson. Before I write anything, let me point out I was in law enforcement in the eighties and early nineties carrying a revolver, and then spent the nineties and the first half of the 2000 decade carrying semi-autos. I can shoot very well with either or, but my preference for my current citizen carry and home defense is a revolver.
Now, as far as single action - once again - I am proficient with a revolver at close quarters and at ranges up to 25 yards with double action, and that includes snubbies. However, past 25 yards, or taking precise shots from behind cover - single action has it's place. It is helpful if you have a hard primer that fails to fire in double action. It also lends itself to one handed shooting from a distance.
So, whereas I mostly train with double action - I still feel single action capability is an extra "ace in the hole," should you ever need it.
I agree, and is the reason I bought my 638. I have quite a few revolvers and I like to think that I'm fairly proficient with them all. I shoot almost exclusively DA but I do like having the option of SA for when and if the situation calls for it, as I find that I can be much more precise with longer shots when time and circumstances allow for SA. With that said, I carry my 640-1, because I like the all steel weight, and/or LCR, because I like the trigger (bought it before the LCRX came out), as much or more that I carry the 638.
As far as the whole "snagging" hammer spur thing.... I thought the same way, waaay back when I bought my first defensive revolver, a DAO SP101. Time and experience has taught me what others have already said, with proper draw technique, it's a nonissue. At least for me. But, I suppose there is always the possibility that it could get snagged on something BEFORE you were ready to draw, and that could impede proper technique. That's why I chose the 638, shrouded hammer for snag free, and still retains SA function when I want. Win-win!
From a dept. liability standpoint, I get it. In fact, I have a DAO police trade-in model 64 with bobbed hammer. I later bought two more that were traditional DA/SA and like them better. For civilian use, outside of some paranoid fear of a litigation claim that you fired in SA and caused a ND, I see no disadvantage to a DA/SA revolver that outweighs the potential advantages.
@@michaelc3416 My first S&W was the 638-2 (pre-lock). I bought it used. It has served well as a light carry gun when I didn't want the encumbrance of a Glock 30. There is an all steel 357 Magnum version which is the model 649. I have one of those also. Sadly that one is a lock model (although the lock seems to have fallen off when I had it disassembled for cerakote work (bye bye warranty). It's 7oz heavier than the 638 but with magnum advantage. The real downside though is that it doesn't fit in my Kramer pocket holster for the 638 due to the heavy barrel. I currently use a DeSantis Nemesis holster for it.
While I definitely don't possess the experience and credentials you have, I wholeheartedly agree that practicing with double action is necessary for self-defense, but the single action capability can prove to be beneficial for longer-range shots.
Proud to be like 100
If the intruder or assailant is within charging distance, about 15 to 20 feet, I would opt for the dbl. action, which I should practice more often. I intend to. But the single action is used to provide the most accurate shot, especially for the regular gun owner, as opposed to the professional gun owner. I think one of the main reasons why police abandoned the single action is because the officer would have a fully cocked revolver, and forget that it was cocked, and accidents occurred.
Retired Philadelphia sergeant here, went through the academy in 1967. We were trained in both DA crouch at seven yards, and SA out to 50 yards. There’s a time and place for both. Over 22 years I trained myself in proficiency (and speed) using both. My SA became so quick, that when I took the updated “live aggressor “ training in 1989, the instructor was sure I was shooting DA from the draw. I was not. As you continually mentioned, it’s all a matter of practice, which is what I did. If you have time to take the revolver out of your holster, you have time to cock it on the way up.
I'm glad your comment happened. It turns out there is a time and a place for both single and double actions. There is no way the gun has to not be cocked. It is always more accurate single action. Double actions on some revolvers can be terrible and hard to correct or improve. For non-cops single action is best.
I like having the option of a single action trigger pull.
me too
I love it. Especially big calibers with hair triggers.
I guess he thinks an average shooter doesn't have any trigger control I thought that was one of the most important things taught was trigger control so why would you accidentally shoot a gun that's bancock when you have proper trigger control
Until you are trying to draw it with the hammer spur caught in your fabric.
@@presidentgateway lots of us were trained to draw with the thumb on the back of the hammer so that's not really an issue. what bothers me is the lint issue with pocket carry - the hammer is just one more way for dirt to get in.
Shot SA since I was old enough to have a hand gun I'm almost70 now never fired off a round when I didn't mean to
My first pistol was an old Smith and Wesson J frame 38 revolver. It was a very easy pistol to conceal. It has a hammer, and I read about the problems of drawing a gun like that and having the hammer snag. I wasn't willing to bob the hammer, so I simply trained myself to place my thumb over the hammer when drawing, and I never had a problem with it snagging on the draw.
I respect your opinion but I disagree
Why?
+Tuton25 Oh, so we're doing this now?
So, what about a 9mm revolver? Best of both worlds?
What has the caliber to do with this? :-D
g4meplayonly I'm assuming he means because 9mm is accurate might help compensate a DAO revolver
Any 4" or especially 6" revolver could also be useful as a hunting gun. Keeping the ability to shoot a hunting revolver as single-action makes that gun much more useful in that dual capacity. While I've rarely practiced with any of my revolvers in single-action, I like to practice a little bit that way in case I ever wanted to use the gun for hunting.
Another point is that if one were injured during a gunfight and could only use one hand, particularly the non-dominant hand, having the ability to use a defensive revolver in single-action would be a tremendous benefit. At that point, there's no question of not shooting if the opportunity arises, and the lighter, shorter trigger pull would make shooting in self-defense easier.
In terms of concealed carry, I love the Smith & Wesson 642 with an internal-only hammer. I like the look of the gun, and I like not having a hammer snagging on things. I hope that I would never have to hunt with this gun, so single-action for hunting wouldn't be an issue. If an injury forced me to shoot one-handed with my left hand, I'd be angry that I didn't have single-action as an option, but I still like the Model 642 enough that I choose this gun for concealed carry.
I realize that you get more clicks by making absolutist statements that will outrage some people, and those clicks may bring money or maybe just advertising for your store. However, I disagree with the absolutist approach of this video.
I appreciate the research that you've done and the history that you've presented here.
He’s not talking about hunting guns. He’s talking about defensive revolvers specifically.
@@knifedance2402 Even so, the absolutist approach is foolish. One never knows when a firearm owned for self-defense purposes might be needed for hunting purposes. As I said in my original comment, one may end up shooting one-handed in a self-defense scenario because of injury. Shooting with the non-dominant hand is much easier if one shoots in single-action.
A lot of people’s “defensive revolvers” are really “outdoors revolvers”, that have a more generalist role. They may be used for game getting and pest elimination as well as self protection, and they therefore benefit very much from a DA/SA capacity. There will usually be a few seconds to cock the hammer and take deliberate aim at a marauding coyote that pops up 40 yards away.
Indeed, once we’re talking about anything bigger than a J-frame, this type of broader mission is probably more common for a citizen’s carry revolver than a role strictly confined to self-defense. (People seeking purely a self-defense weapon, who can carry a K-frame size gun, might as well get a compact striker 9mm pistol.)
Hence it’s practical and reasonable that most revolvers come with a hammer.
I humbly disagree (no disrespect whatsoever). I personally am much more accurate/confident in my shot placement with a single action.
With a bit of practice you can be pretty much just as accurate at self defense distances
Josh William with just as much practice double action is a lot faster
@@borkwoof696 Have you witnessed how fast the top SASS shooters are????
Billy the Kid and his ilk never had a problem making kills with a SA and those guns had hammers.
And to add, from the hip, has no one ever seen the movie Young Guns?
As a general rule in the firearms industry: Having options is better than having none. Modularity is important to a lot of people, like having piccatiny rails on semi auto pistols. SA is FAR easier to use if you are using your pistol for literally anything other than self defense, which (contrary to the tone of this video) is going to be the vast majority of the time you pull the trigger on one of these pistols. You’re either going to use it to shoot paper, steel, soda cans (or other fun mediums) or game before you’re ever going to use it on a human being within rule of law. If you don’t like SA, don’t use it, even train to ignore it - but to say removing the option entirely is better than keeping it so you won’t trick your brain into using it detrimentally makes absolutely no sense to me. SA/DA makes a pistol able to be used for target shooting and/or hunting purposes as well as self defense. Removing SA just stripped the gun of its viability for other, more realistic uses.
No, that isn’t a rule. In fact, if any rule has developed, it is that fewer options are better, because you’re likely to spend too long considering them in high-stress situations. Ever wonder why a lot of military rifles lack adjustable gas blocks? Why semiautos are so often SAO these days? Why CCW pistols so rarely have a manual safety? Simple! The more functions, the more stuff to get between you and firing the gun, the more chance there is that human error enters the equation. Generally, when civilians lose armed encounters, it’s because they weren’t fast enough. It’s basically never because they were out-ranged. In fact, I’m unaware of it ever happening.
The point is that DAO revolvers actually have physical advantages over conventional revolvers. Advantages beyond the question of training. No hammer spur to catch on, nothing to let debris enter the action, one less thing to get grabbed and make the weapon inoperable, (which is far more likely to happen than some 60 yard SA shot). DAO revolvers are just better for concealed carry.
I’m all about options. I bought a .357 magnum revolver for a wide range of caliber choices, and I bought a double/single action for the trigger pull choice.
Being 70 YO. I have shot revolvers all my life and my first shot will always be single action. Drawing and cocking the hammer is combined in one motion after that it's game on and over. I generally believe that shot placement is the most important thing if can't make a precise shot on target I won't take it.
Chris, on a side note, could you do a video on how to shoot a short barrel revolver better, like you did with small pocket pistols. I have no problems shooting fist size holes at 10 yards with any good CC pistol, but double action j frames it looks like buckshot.
+starshipfantastica Good idea. I will do this.
Those are some good tips. Grant has a lot of solid revolver info, but I assure you, he is far from being the "last of the revolver gurus." There are still plenty of retired-LE guys around who have done some very extensive field work with revolvers, and they have a great deal of valuable knowledge to share.
Fair enough, until I have the cash to travel to a class given by a Cunningham or a Clint Smith I'll just have to make due with being the only revolver shooter in a given course.
I bought my first handgun in 1995.It was at a long established gun shop in my hometown.I didn’t have any idea at the time of what I wanted,except for something small ,an deadly.I had the salesman select three for me,an lay them out in a roll.Since I was unfamiliar with any handguns I just eyeballed them over a few seconds,an asked the salesperson some questions, simplicity ,handling,stopping power safety an prices.I still had no clue what to select even after questioning the salesperson should I buy an automatic or a revolver.All three were appealing choices to my eye as I held each to get some feel of handling.As i continued I noticed a gentleman next me looking at several handguns spreaded in front of himself checking each one an it’s features meticulously.As I looked at him he said hi an asked if i were familiar with handguns.I told him not at all, an this was going to be my first purchase.He kindly asked me was it for carry or home defense.I told him home defense,an he told me (quote.....) I ‘m not trying to tell you what to buy,but if u are a first time buyer an operator I would recommend a revolver since it has a better safety system built in meaning the double action system.I told him thax a lot for the advice an payed an walked out with a nice.38 sp Taurus snubnose which fitted my hand so perfectly,The gentleman also told me it was a good quality firearm brand new for $200.00.I still have the handgun an I put a 100 rounds threw it when first bought.It is a model 85 an still looks brand new some 25 years later.
Back in 1970, firearms training switched to double action only. Most agencies in my area carried the S&W 15, 14, & 19. The Colts carried were the Trooper, Python, Diamondback, Detective Special and some of the old timers then carried the Officers Model Match. Many of these firearms had to be modified by the police armorer of LAPD because of their decision to make sure their guns can only fire double action. They eventually did away with Colts all together for some reason. So as far as I know, about the time I went on the job, the policy was double action only, however with our department we did not have our arms modified. Just a couple I know of in the LA area did. When the 80s came tooling along, most agencies were switching to the 9MMs El Monte & Culver City Police carried the .45 ACP and for a while there, Culver City allowed their officers to carry .45 revolvers. So I learned from the beginning to fire a revolver double action but I do own a couple of single action revolvers which I love to shoot at the range. .22LR, .357, & .45LC.
I like the ability to shoot single action on occasion with my double action revolver but in a self defense mode or posture, the thought would never enter my head to use single action unless single action was what I was carrying at the time. This video does make sense and handled a shooting once where an accidental discharge by a security guard ended up in the suspects death. If he did not use single action, the suspect would be alive and he would not have lost a civil suit which will take half his wages for life. No criminal charges were made but the civil suit wiped him out for life.
I was ready to defend this to the hilt (or pommel) as I am a pretty ingrained SA shooter with my Chiappa Rhino, but your points were concise, informative, and well investigated. I will be reviewing my technique and probably taking a revolver class going forward.
I may be the only 24 year old in the world that carries a Single Action Revolver in 45 colt in a short 3.5" barrel with birds head grip.
Your opinions are sound and I respect them.
As a long time handgun hunter I sure realize the benefit of SA accuracy of a revolver at 50+ yds that you could never do shooting DA so while a cop may never need to shoot that far why remove that option in the slim chance he may need it firing at someone behind cover.For a cop I'm sure the bad guy isn't always at 15 ft in the open.
Great video, very informative. Tom Givens once fired my model 65 upside down with his pinky double action and shot the q dead center that is in the top corner on the q target.
I saw him do the same with a snubby.
I love how educational & fun Lucky Gunner videos are!
Thanks!
A long, long time ago I shot in police competitions. Our competition revolvers were Smith and Wesson model 15s and the action job included removing the single action notch so they were capable of only double action use. A distinct advantage of a double-action only revolver is that the action can be much smoother and lighter when it's dedicated to only one mode of action. For a revolver that is dedicated only to self-defense, I can't dispute your point. However, one of the reasons people buy a revolver is for versatility and at least in their (our) minds, losing the single action function takes away some of the versatility of the firearm. Your point, although valid, ignores some of the psychology of why people own specific firearms. Even though I essentially agree with you, none of my revolvers are double action only because sometimes I like to thumb the hammer back and take a shot at something fairly far away. My self-defense revolver is also my hiking/fishing/small critter hunting revolver and I don't want to lose the single action capability. My solution is to do almost all of my practice with the double action function trusting that when I can cock the hammer and take my time I'll do at least as well as I did in my training.
There is a great use for manually cocking the first round . I deer/hog/varmint hunt with a Ruger Super Redhawk 44mag .
Getting that feather light pull with that first shot is far more stable & for me , more accurate .
Double is great for a follow up if needed , but for that "cherry shot" I'm cocking that hammer .
Been shooting since 1987 when I went to the police reserve academy used a S&W M-15 in .38 Spl, by 1989 was using a Ruger P-85 in 9mm, today still using a 9mm for my main job with the state in a Beretta M9( issued a military weapon). The course of fire is still set up for a revolver even though only a hand full still use them. The Styles have changed over the years, but the job of getting rounds on target hasn't.
my first revolver was a single action black powder when I was a teen. I learned to shoot single action. when I got my s&w j frame, I elected for the model w a hammer. I like the option of both.
Very good video. I have a S&W Model 10 SA/DA and a 64 SA/DA, as well as a snub nose, hammerless. I practice DA only with all of them. Your points are right-on.
I think a single-action capability extends the practical range of a revolver if you are caught in a longer range situation, especially if using magnum rounds. A double action only design can make it a bit more difficult to land shots on a more far away assailant. However, it is indeed opinion. I just prefer to have more control over when the hammer falls.
Oh and nice work on the .38/.357 research. I have been looking through that data for 2 days lol. I recently switched from Remington 158gr. LSWCHP+P to Hornady 110gr Critical Defense. The old FBI load was good in my 4" but I woried about the performance in my snubby. I think the new loads will work a bit better in both. I always keep a speedloader of Full power .357 158 gr Soft Points handy in case I need more penetration.
take a look at ballisticsbytheinch.com
Good points. In law enforcement, we are taught to use double action only, so I am trained that way. But I still prefer having the single action feature. I often carry a Smith model 638, which has a shrouded hammer, but retains the single action ability. I practice double action in combat shooting, bur still like having the single action option for woods and fishing carry.
You left out a group! There are a whole lot of us that hunt with our Colt SAA and an use it quite quite effectively in a defense situation
Yep. You'd just slow us down with a double action.
@Lucky Gunner Ammo When I worked for a security company in the early 80s I carried one and sometimes two Ruger security six revolvers. I had them modified with better sights, an action job (a slight advantage in speed substantial advantage in a double-action accuracy) Magna ported, better grips, and I had the hammer spurs completely removed. I stopped shooting single-action altogether before I had my pistols modified and found an enormous improvement in speed and an insignificant accuracy reduction. If I could go back and change what I carried and the mods done to them the only thing I would alter is adding a hammer shroud if possible. One thing I would add is that I have, at times slept with a pistol in my bed (an old S & W with a shrouded hammer) and a pistol with no external hammer will not malfunction if it gets caught up in the bedding. In addition to that, the only auto I've ever used that I would feel comfortable sleeping with is an H & K VP-70Z. I agree with every point you have made in this video.
Note of Interest, when the double action revolver was first made its debut the trigger cocking mechanism meant that people considered it a single action as only one action was necessary to fire it, just pulled the trigger, what we now refer to as single action was actually considered a double action as you had to cock the hammer and then squeeze the trigger. It was shortly after change to incorporate what the action did the squeezing of the trigger both cut the hammer and let it down making it a double action whereas in the previous model the squeezing of the trigger only released the hammer.
Being proficient with any trigger fundamentals is mandatory.
I still always opt for the best trigger when available for precision - that’s just knowing your equipment.
I like the option for the same reason I like it on my berettas. It’s comforting having the ability to put your thumb over the hammer on the reholster.
Good video and GREAT discussion! I carry an M49, and practice DA almost exclusively; occasionally taking some SA shots for fun and long-range practice. Staging the trigger to cylinder lockup, pausing to adjust aim then releasing the shot can be even trickier than cocking the hammer first.
Another advantage of a hammer spur is when doing a rotation check. Pulling the hammer back until the cylinder can be rotated to ensure free rotation is MUCH safer than pulling the trigger back to unlock the cylinder, for obvious reasons. Even if a revolver is rendered DAO, a minimal spur can still be left on the hammer for this reason.
Lastly, when lowering the hammer of a 'modern' rebounding hammer or transfer-bar revolver, if you let go of the trigger after releasing the hammer, the safety mechanism will keep the gun from firing even if the hammer slips--I just tried this with my M49.
When I was an Army MP we were trained and carried either .38s or .45s. While we were trained on single-action first shot we never used it in practice. The remaining part of our sidearm training was always double action for the reasons you stay but primarily nervous pointmen.
Great video. Makes the point I have stood by for many years. I carry a J frame most often with the hammer spur removed with my Dremmel. That spur was like a fish hook, easy to get caught up on things
i look at it as double action with single action as a plus. for self defense train often with double action but if you are plinking or for that odd chance where you would be justified at taking a longer range shot you have the single action option there
I have shot double action only for 40 years. I have read Masood Ayoob on the subject and recommend him to all. I can still hold 5 inches at 25 yards dao with a 4 inch fixed sighted revolver. I used to do that at 40 yards but even with strong glasses I have my limits.
There's old ww2 training films on youtube. They make for interesting viewing in terms of how the army felt pistols should be handled.
I got mad respect for you bro. But in this case I have to disagree. I think its good to have both. My defensive snubby is a Taurus 85 (all stock, no trigger work or replacement grips), and I wouldnt consider using double action on it unless the target was advancing quickly on me and was almost within 5-7 yrd range. After putting hundreds of rounds through it, my muscle memory can cock the hammer back, fire, and re-cock the hammer, and fire again very rapidly. It just takes practice and muscle memory. As a huge fan of revolvers, I would never consider buying one if it was not single/double action. But I realize I'm in the minority here. Hickok45 shares your philosophy and bobbed off the hammer on his defensive revolver S&W model 65, and only fires it in double action, very accurately.
"...putting a hole where there should not be one is a lot more likely than picking off a terrorist at 50 yards."
Hahaha!
I really like the clear-thinking, minimize-risks style of this channel. Concealed carry is an enormous responsibility and incredible amount of power at your fingertips. You can certainly argue things the other way but his approach seems right on to me.
Thanks!
I'd put it this way: once the gun is out of your holster/pocket and it's grip is firmly seated in your hand(s), you are more ready to fire... Which is exactly the point of the whole thing (carrying the gun). Fact #1: liability issue is solved by training - always was and always will be; fact #2: single action for a notch better accuracy, double action for when you need to react on a sudden impulse (when you've got to "draw", so to speak).
✨VERY IMPORTANT OBSERVATIONS , MOST FOR BEGINNERS IN REVOLVERS .
✨ VERY GOOD VIDEO .
As a counter argument when your revolver is a single and double action you have an advantage over just a double action because a double action turns and shoot a single action doesn’t turn first but shoots first so when a ass hole grabs your gun by the cylinder with a single and double action you can still fire by pulling the hammer back
Yankee Marshall completely agrees with you!
Double action might bé usefull. But single action is better for accuracy. There is no wrong choice. WE need both.
Five years ago I completely disagreed with this notion. Now I completely agree. For self-defense there's no real benefit to single action, and not having even the option to use single action has real advantages like a snag-free draw.
I have thought about this a lot since I first watched it and have come to the conclusion that you are correct.
I practice double action from 0 to 25 yards. Beyond that i use single action
Man this guy is real good. Keep up the good work, l watch all your Videos.
totally agree, i was terrible with a DAO revolver until i practiced for a few months, now i shoot as well with that trigger as i do with a kimber, now i only purchase and shoot DAO revolvers. I used to think DAO was stupid, but only because I sucked at shooting DAO. Hickok45 shoots the gong with his revolvers in DAO and Jerry Miculek shoots fast and accurate in DAO, these aren't super human beings, they just practiced instead of gettinf butthurt
Single action is good for the first shot of 357 and 44 mags. With smaller revolvers it doesn’t change the trigger pull as much.
At 3.07, in the old training film, an incredibly cool guy in with black hat taking down a bad guy. Those were the days...
I'm sorry but I got a S&W 637 (with the hammer spur) over a "hammerless" j frame because I simply like the look of the hammer on a revolver. also replaced the rubber grips with wood grips. because all revolvers should have wood grips and a hammer spur
I was turned off to bobbed hammer's seeing some of the smiths. But then I layed eyes on a Ruger sp-101 2.25 inch barrel in 357 mag with a bobbed hammer doa . Knowing it's properties and it's beefy stature able to handle hot and heavy load's better ; it's my new favorite every day carry . It's extra material stock and caliber coupled with it's size makes it ideal for my routine My grocery store trips and nature hikes . It just feels far more durable and reliable then a polymer .
As a former 1500 PPC competitor I can honestly say that with many hours practice and thousands of rounds I was more proficient to 50 yards with a S&W revolver double action than a semi auto. Unfortunately neither type of handgun is legal now in the UK.
When a bad guy hears the hammer click they think twice.
Doesn't the fact that single action revolvers require two separate actions to fire a round make them MORE safe to carry in a sense?
Depending on the single action revolver, yes....they are safer. Like any firearm, training is key. Single action revolvers require a considerable amount more training to become proficient with than a semiautomatic platform. If someone is willing to dedicate themselves to training with them, they should not be mocked by the firearms community for choosing such a platform.
I have big hands, but I'm a small guy. I have a hard time concealing a weapon that's large enough for me to easily hold. I have a small .38 that I chose specifically for its (now rare) single-action capability. With its tiny 2.5 finger grip, heavy pull, and long travel, and short barrel, it is very difficult to fire accurately when using double action. Single action takes what is an obnoxious trigger pull that is complicated by a small grip and makes it manageable. I had the same problem with my squirt-gun sized M&P Bodyguard .380
I’m surprised Ed McGivern and Bill Jordan weren’t credited here. They were right up there with Bryce, Applegate, etc.
Anyway, I’ve heard this argument and I dismiss it. I almost always use Double Action when I am shooting and that is my first instinct. Maybe, just maybe, once in a while I’ll cock it to stay familiar with single action or shoot something at great distance. (50-100 yards) and I almost always use 1 hand as the old school guys typically did (it’s a handgun, not a handsgun). Once in a while I will use the weaver or isosceles two handed stance to be familiar.
The older guys knew more than we. Had better double action revolvers too typically (find a good pre 1990s S&W or Colt and you’ll be surprised how smooth and easy the action is compared to most modern made DA revolvers).
If I think I will be engaging in close combat (like normal concealed carry) I carry a DAO snubbie revolver in a shoulder holster or cross draw holster. If in the field/forest I carry a larger DA/SA revolver in an OWB or flap holster. Different guns and different carry techniques for different situations.
He says that it's a danger having cops with cocked revolvers, funny as the same issue occures today as a Glock is nothing but a constant cocked automatic with the same issues of accidental discharges raised by 60%
I agree with you. The liability of getting my ass sued off and loosing everything I own in a civil suit is not worth having a "option". Ive asked an attorney from U.S. Law Shield months ago about this and he gave the same advice as you. I don't need a hammer and don't need to fantasize about shooting bad guys at 100 yards single action. Every training expert I've ever heard in regards to triggers has said to never go below 4 lbs in a carry gun. I guess if people are willing to take the risk... it's their money and their freedom.
Heavy trigger pull and a nervous situation are not good combinations. Training or not. A much easier trigger pull can be the difference between a well placed shot and a miss. I think there is still application for pulling the hammer back in many situations.
Excellent food for thought. Im on board.
Superb and very thorough overview on the use of DA revolvers.
Pretty soon hopefully shooting technique will change more and instructors will stop trying to force every single last student to shoot with both eyes open, they don’t realize that there is a certain few who only see double vision that way (either double vision with targets or the sights). Some people can only shoot when closing the opposite eye, trying to shoot when you see two of everything is obviously not the best way for everyone in my opinion.
Worth noting the centennial was a bit of a flop being discontinued in 1972
The S&W M638 has a shrouded hammer. It's the way to go if you want the dual action capability and retain conceal-ability.
The hammer spur and single action feature isn't obsolete. If all new revolvers were double action only, there wouldn't be any new shooters getting into revolvers. Someone used to shooting a semi-auto can't just pick up a revolver and shoot it accurately in double action. Shooting DA accurately takes a lot of practice, too much practice for a lot of people who would simply opt for a semi-auto. So it's still very important that revolvers are SA/DA.
by Bob Nichols, 1950, Putnam. On my library shelf. Thirteen chapters, most of which seems to be filler. However, the good stuff is simply marvelous. Well worth the read, IF one is serious about self defense.
For all those who proudly assert they have fired single action all their long lives and never had a discharge they didn't intend, good on them. I do not question that a bit. Sadly, that is not the norm. I've seen people - who should have known better - set off unintended shots in competition. Happily they were facing downrange and the shots were merely embarrassing rather than tragic, but it happens.
One poster mentioned Wyatt Earp and Bob Munden. I met Mr. Munden when he was alive. Liked the man and was awed by his speed and accuracy with a single action revolver. However, he was set and primed to draw and fire before the signal to shoot was given - unlike a self defense setting - and accuracy meant popping a balloon at close range with the powder shards from a blank cartridge.
Wyatt Earp - and other western lawmen - did in fact face down men who meant harm. The rules of engagement were quite different. In today's world (and legal system) he (they) would have been fired from their position at least and sent to prison at worst.
After being thoroughly beat in pistol competition simulating actual events by several men using seriously ordinary revolvers - I had read too much Jeff Cooper and carried a Government Model - I realized I didn't know what they did. So I learned how to shoot double action only. Made my world far different. The result is I have an affinity for double action revolvers (largely older Smith & Wesson) and Government Models.
The potential for snagging a hammer on clothing during the draw is greatly, almost entirely, mitigated by using a master-grip on the revolver when doing so. During the draw, place the thumb of the draw hand over the hammer spur and don't start moving it around the revolver until clear of garment and the presentation has begun. This method works for any and all carry positions; AIWB, strong-side, pocket, etc. While DAO is the likely method of firing during a defensive shooting, removing the hammer spur is a solution to a non-existent problem with proper technique.
Lucky Gunner - no disrespect intended, but have you ever really seriously practiced (thousands of rounds like many of us have) with a single action revolver? Because I have and that’s what I’m best at and what I have.
You may be awesome with your chosen tool, but if you don’t believe single action shooting can be extremely effective you need to look harder.
It has a great deal to do with what you practice. Don’t you think?
Okay. But here's something. I have an uberti cattleman. a "colt clone" if you will. I wear that thing everywhere and it has saved my life before. I was hunting in SC and was caught off guard by a pack of coy dogs while gutting the deer. I killed three of them with that single action revolver by fanning, which is faster than double action revolvers. So while you are right about double action being useful in most situations, a single action can still preform well, if not surpass them in the hands of an experienced shooter.
Thanks for this. Safety is my #1 priority. I own two five-shot Rossi's. One of them is double action only. I'm going to sell the other one and get another double action only.
Some amazing amount of research you have done.
Bc with longer ranges the trigger pull really starts to affect accuracy so being able to pull the hammers back is still a very useful and nice feature to have.
Different revolvers have different triggers if you have a sweet trigger then dosen't matter but if your trigger has a heavy, creepy, and a long travel
you are are better off single action
Colt Detective Special is still an awesome carry gun almost a hundred years later
I agree, but I want both actions in my larger, dual purposes revolvers because I carry them camping, hiking, fishing and in wood walking and want the single action feature as well for longer distance, accurate shots.
ive had double action revolvers fail to cycle the chamber having the hammer gives you a garuntee that the chamber is gonna cycle
He makes a lot of valid points, but I wouldn't say that single action is obsolete. The only thing that I would personally be worried about, after shooting single action only revolvers for a while, is pulling the hammer back habitually, and then paying for that habit in court because (in this hypothetical situation) I had a double action revolver. That would suck. And it's kind of why I haven't bought a double action revolver, because I know that I will pull the hammer back out of instinct. That being said, not to toot my horn, I can shoot a single action pretty quickly at any distance, as can anyone who's spent any extended amount of time with them. So maybe the video should be called "Why SA/DA revolvers should only be shot in DA in a defensive situation". I don't know, that's my two cents.
The NYPD switched from S&W model 10’s to a model 64 with double action only and a bobbed hammer in July of 87 for the very reasons that you mentioned. As soon as I switched to semi autos I must admit that I converted my mod 64 to single/double action. Great video, thanks
i'm a revolver guy. and right, wrong or indifferent? I adore single action. and want this option on double action revolvers.
So u guys are saying "all revolvers have to be made this way cuz it's our preference" mhmm ur COMPLETELY correct in saying that.
I am not native English speaker.
but English pronunciation you speak is very easy to understand!
I use a single action Ruger as my edc. If you actually think I worry about folks with semi-auto pistols, you are very wrong. I'd like to meet that person who thinks he can get his weapon into play faster than I can.
TELL MATT DILLON THAT STUFF. HE’LL THINK YOU ARE CRAZY , TOO!!!!!!!!!! You are always more accurate in SINGLE ACTION. Only makes COMMON sense. Double action, about an inch of pull at at somewhere between 11to12 pounds. Single action,less than 1/16 inch pull at 4to5 pounds. You do the homework. Test tomorrow!!!! SHOOT SAFE!!!!!!
This video confirms my bias, so I like it. Another cool advantage of DAO revolvers you haven't mentioned, the hammer doesn't stab you in the gut if yo carry appendix style!
Yes, that is nice.
just need a better holster !
I would much rather have the option and not need it than need the option and not have it. That being said, the VAST MAJORITY of your practice with a revolver should be double action.
I train with my S&W M14,64,65,66 and DW M15 in Double action almost exclusively double action. It has made me a better pistol marksmans.
My taurus judge ultralite is dao and in a defensive situation youll most likely be only using it that way agreed, also it doesnt snag like my model 85, thats the best reason imo
this is my favorite video from you guys.
Do a little reading about the Texas Rangers. They would get into longer range situations where they had to keep the banditos heads down with aimed single-action fire. DAO wouldn't cut it.
Couldn’t agree more. That is also why my carry pistols are true hammer fired DAO, as well as my carry revolver being DA. I shoot better DA than SA, so have to work on my SA technique, but do that with a single action only revolver .i think striker fired pistols are are just as bad as SAs under stress, and having to rely on a mechanical safety, to keep a cocked striker from dropping, is not a plus for me.
Single action should be a choice. Never have gotten over the hand crank being left off my automobile. Wanted the choice.
I think these videos are pretty well-put together. I agree, if you're going to use a wheel gun for defense, just practice with DA only. I still retain the hammer on my Model 19, really just to keep it stock and for nostalgia, but I never shoot it SA. In a gun fight, a real fight, you're just going to pull the trigger on the problem till it stops moving, you're dead, or you run out and got to do something (reload). Forget this single action business, that's totally out the window.
If you're still alive to reload, you're just going to go with whatever muscle memory and equipment you gave yourself before the fight, and just go with it. I think suggesting people remove SA capability on their revolvers is kind of extreme, but I see why you would say that, and I may think that's a little too far (just don't fuckin' use it) but I see why you recommend that.
I'm using all your videos to get notions about how to handle firearms! I'm about to, maybe, get a permission to own a firearm and your videos are perfect!
I totally agree with you especially for small concealed carry revolvers like my Ruger LCR DA only .38 Special. With a gun like that you're not really target shooting but practicing for a defensive situation so DA only is the way to go. With my Colt Python, I mostly shoot single action because I am target shooting and I'm just more accurate that way.