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- Board Meeting Animation - Derailment of Amtrak Train No. 58, City of New Orleans
Near Flora, Mississippi
April 6, 2004
Presented at the Board meeting July 26, 2005 in Washington, D.C., for the Flora, MS Railroad Accident Investigation.
Disclaimer This three dimensional animation shows railroad track features in the accident of Amtrak Train Number 58, City of New Orleans, which derailed near Flora Mississippi on April 6, 2004. This animation is for representational purposes only and does not depict weather or visibility conditions at the time of the accident. The accident occurred on track owned and maintained by the Canadian National Railway Company.
Not a lot of margin for error when it comes to rail gauge. With thousands and thousands of miles of rail in this country, it's a testament to rail workers that this sort of thing doesn't happen more often.
It happens quite often. "Sun kinks" are a thing and the industry has got to get this sorted.
Interesting mix of jargon and simplistic explanation.
You may also heat up the old rail on either side with "snakes", and bolt the new plug tight.
Had to take Amtrak route LA - New Orleans and back in July. That route seem extremely bumpy in certain states. Some places the train car was rocking so strong, the shock obsorbers for side movement were bumping into their limits.
The freight companies who own and maintain that track seem like cutting short of the proper maintenance.
digimaks w
Amtrak owning next to none of the rails it uses seems to be a leading factor in all of the deficiencies of US passenger rail.
I won't pretend I'm not biased in saying this, but I really think that all public infrastructure ought to be publicly owned.
@@AnimeSunglasses Let's not be communist
that was some very good findings! Keep up the great work!
They should have came back and adjusted the rail after it warmed up. The RR adjust track in the fall and in the spring. You cut and replace rail as needed every 4 to 5 miles. They just waited to long to adjust the rail.
bs
There also has to be an adequate number of rail expansion clips (or restraints) in order to force the rail to expand vertically rather than horizontally.
Wouldnt it be a good practice to leave the section of new rail that you are going to use for the repair along side the tracks for at least 24 hours? Kind of like acclimating fish to a new pond.
The narrator specifically states that when the existing rail was cut by the section crew, it contracted at each end for a total shrinkage in length of 2-1/2 inches. Therefore, the new section of rail was made 2-1/2 inches longer than the original distance between the cuts. So, when temperatures rose again, there was an extra 2-1/2 inches of rail in the gap that expanded laterally rather than vertically, as would have occurred had there been enough rail clips in place to prevent that from happening. Also, had there been enough rail clips in place originally, the cut rail would not have contracted as much as it did. Even assuming that the replacement section of rail was at the same temperature exactly as the existing
rail, the same problem would have arisen when the temperature of the rail later rose to 114 degrees.
Yes indeed that describes the problem. With both existing rail and replacement rail at same temperature they would both expand at the same rate. However something else is a miss. Maybe that is the reason for the abnormal wear at that location. When installing the repair you just shifted the stresses to a different location on the track. This new stress point might not have been strong enough to support the stresses.
Ahh now I see a big downside of continuously welded rail. Yes a lot more quiet. However not temperature stable. I wonder what the future will bring. Will they ever use a more temperature stable material or one that behaves differently. Maybe the old timers of yesterday engineered out a problem and didn't realize they did with how the rail was jointed together. Expansion/contraction joints.
With continuously welded rail you have eliminated all those joint bars that allowed a certain amount of expansion and contraction to be absorbed every 40 feet or so without distortion. The overall advantages of welded rail clearly outweigh its disadvantages, however, as long as expansion/contraction of the very long sections of welded rail is carefully calculated and controlled. I'm no expert, that's for sure, but it seems as though someone should have taken notice of a probable future problem at this location, where it was necessary to install a section of rail 2-1/2 inches longer than what was cut out to begin with.
bsmith SS united states
You do what is called Adjusting the rail. You do this every spring and again in late fall. We did about every 4 to 5 miles. In hill country and curve country you adjust track every 3 to 4 miles. Some RR go more that this. Adjusting rail is when you cut rail and let run where it wants to. Then replace about a 40 foot section back into the rail. If the RR had done their adjusting this would have never happen.
bs
Having studied railway Technics in sweden I understand the problems. If you take out a rail in cold temperature you shouldn't add a bigger rail because the rail needs to expand. This is true even if you weld it. I don't fully understand the method, but I'm not a railway welder.
Yeah that's what it says in the video. No railway technics education necessary.
In Japan when two sections of rail meet there is a tapering between the two sections of rail so when expansion and contraction occurs, the two sections of rail will slide between each other so buckling won't occur.
Also, the hand can be used like a knife.
Correct, common sense, regarging the 3 laws of THERMODYNAMICS, are sadly missing, in todays' knowledge, of almost every conceivable human invention.....Never had these problems, in the old west, ; not until the last 50 years or so.
ARE WE MISSING SOME IMPORTANT THERMAL EDUCATION ? Judging, from falling massive bridges, to train tracks.......even pavement, should have expansion joints, about every 12- 15 feet or so; depending on asphalt / aggregate properties. WHERE are the ' engineers math notes '' ? Watch for cracks, in the roads you drive on; ----- 12 or 15 feet or so.....from here in Alberta Canada....
Well here's a good place to ask why continuous-welded rail doesn't do this all the time. I imagine there must be expansion joints at SOME interval.
On April 6th, 2004, Amtrak Train 58 The City of New Orleans Train derailed.
Good morning to all from SE Louisiana 29 Apr 22.
Is there a way the rail ends can be angled so that expansion can slide one rail beyond the other?
No. Any expansion or contraction of welded rail tends to occur in areas on curves, where a track can move in and out a little bit.
As far as those expansion joints you make mention of the massive Huey Long railroad bridge, over the Mississippi River, down in Louisiana, contains such features in the rails. I have seem such on TH-cam videos of this massive bridge.
If it is cwr track surely it should be stressed /destressed??
So the questions I'd be asking are if I were an accident investigator - why did the welder place a longer section in than what was taken out? As a CWR welder, he should have known that the rerail would require retensioning given the cooler temps, did the team not have a set of rail tensors available at the time of repair? Leading from this then, if the team didn't have the necessary equipment available at the time of repair, were the track managers made aware of the incorrect repair and if management were made aware of the incorrect repair, were plans made to implement a correction? Too many unanswered questions and to blame the track ties for not supporting the rail is rediculous as they are not there to support this type of rail deformation. So from this, I would suspected either poor communication (between the work crew and rail managers not advising of the incorrect repair) or poor rail management not acting to rectify the incorrect repair in an appropriate time frame as the cause of this accident.
That happens with all NTSBgov video's. They only literally explain what happened, but don't investigate or atleast don't show results of what is required to improve the situation, sadly.
You have to read the written NTSB report if you want the full story.
Typically, the length of the rail cut out and the rail put in is documented and sent to the section engineer. All the rail removed or added (in this case, 2.5" was added) to the railroad is accounted for so that work is supposed to be scheduled to readjust the rail to remove the extra rail before the temperatures rise too high. The cycle clearly wasn't completed here...
I would have thought that the guys would have cut the rail the original length of what they cut out , and then use "fire snakes" to expand the new rail .
I would replace a rail section with the same length. There should be a law about it.
Law? Son sit back down.
Just need a simplex rail puller, your cwr chart and bring the rail neutral temperature back to 105 Degrees. Then make sure all rail anchors are applied.
This happened on my 2nd birthday
114!!!!!!!! "Warmer"
'
must be real strong cements / concretes on the railroad tracks...
not woods tracks
How about slider connections?
soon as he said the rails contracted. i instantly knew what he was gonna say next. lol i was like "oh yea, cant see how this could go wrong."
so we have cars that can scan behind you and alert the driver of danger, we have face recognition software that can pull out minute changes.. but we dont have anything scanning in front of train engines to alert them of changes in the tracks, track temp, etc.. the priorities of technology are misplaced
Oh, yes. When a train is going 65 and requires two miles to stop, by the time the scanner can see the issue, it's WAY too late to stop short.
@@NiceMuslimLady That's why you have a drone fly 2 miles ahead and notify the engineer of washouts, obstructions, vandalism, etc.
@@MarkNobleUS That would be a rulebook violation.
So they were supposed to leave a gap between the newly installed rail to avoid the problem?
Bassotronics Exactly the question I had. How do you foresee something like this? Or engineer it to accommodate for the temperature change?
Well he did say "Lack of adequate rail restraints." So more restraint mechanisms might have mitigated this problem...
I think Carbon Diamond rails that don't stretch with temperature would be a good choice. But probably $1,000,000 each rail. lol
Bradley Wilson Bassotronics It is supposed to be engineered to accommodate for the temperature change. This includes adequate anchoring of the rail, and pre-stressing the rail by heating it before installation so it is already expanded (rails are able to resist damage from contraction in cold temperatures better than from expansion in hot temperatures).
It is also common for railroads to reduce the speeds of trains on very hot days, allowing the engineer more time to react if they see a sun kink in the rail ahead.
Some great info on the problem can be found at www.vre.org/feedback/frequently_asked_questions/faq_heat_orders.htm.
*****
Thanks!
Was an engineer in charge🙄
Im sure the condition of the dogs and wood ties had nothing to do with this accident , Im sure it was just the 2 inches of metal . This happens all of the time thats why rail workers take the bus
DOS on go
DOS
So, training from experienced instructors is just kind of an inconvenience then.
No rail anchors.
Those train / track employees, SHOULD BE REQUIRED, to take a steel education. Most rails, in Canada are created from 1984 steel.
1084 has low wear resistance and decent shock resistance, so if you make a knife of it, don’t forget to take care of it and oil it.
1084 Steel Chemical Composition
0.93% of Carbon: For tensile strength and Edge retention.
0.9% of Manganese: Increases hardness and brittleness.
0.5% of Silicon: Increases strength like Manganese.
0.3% of Phosphorus: Increases strength.
0.5% of Sulfur: Increases machinability, and decreases strength.
If you noticed, there is no Chromium in this alloy, so automatically, its wear resistance will be low, neither Molybdenum or Nickel for toughness.
What is the hardness(HRC) of 1084 steel ? According to the industrial standard hardening test, the Rock well hardness of 1084 is 50 H R C at 650 (F) Heating temperature and 65 H R C at 300(f).
THEY SHOULD have installed, the new rail, AFTER it should be sitting near the track, from the day before, BOTH would be at the same temperature; also, there should have been a gap, between BOTH ENDS, of the new installation, about 1/4 inch, depending on the length of the new piece. ( Figure mathematically the expansion, distance of said rail, from ambient temperature, to about as low / high as the weather in that section of the country...) THEY'D BE OKAY, no derailment then ! ( old guys )
dHidd they deids ¿ ¿ ¿
0:09 That was my real birthday!
So.. Not anymore? ;P
@@Bradman175 bruh it stays lmfao
Rookie mistake... 'Nuff said!!!...
é Power-Phull
Why are we still using continuous weld tracks?
cause it's better?
"We"? Why are you using "we"? Got a turd in your pocket?
Engineers
Yikes
I know the physics of metal since 5th grade does railroads engineers finished elementary school?
Although it appears you skipped most English classes
lol KaZinnnggggg! I wuz a medal psycik in 4th grade. Predator7 up ther iz stoopid.
@@xgoldenbonesx HAHHAAHAHAHAHAHAHHA
There are millions of miles of welded track. How can that little change, in temperature, cause the track to deform thar much? There is something else that caused that accident.
Riveting
Sun kinks are not good...
Why are we still using wood ties and spikes to hold our rail down?
That's kinda 1800ish wouldn't you think?
Train infrastructure in the USA seems long neglected.
In Europe rails are primarily laid on concrete.
@@OmmerSyssel The US prefers to invest in keeping a huge wealth gap between the rich and the poor. in Europe people have medical care and education.
@@OmmerSyssel Concrete sleepers cause the rails on curves to wear faster and don't last as long on bridges and in tunnels is what I hear. Also more expensive, and they also don't tend to be as forgiving a timber sleepers in a derailment. It seems that concrete are more common on higher speed tracks and timber are still pretty ubiquitous on lower speed track, like branch lines, although I HAVE seen some concrete sleepers on a branch line near here on either side of a crossing. It was a strange thing. The crossing itself had timber sleepers.
@@NiceMuslimLady millions of km modern train tracks are build on concrete.
No matter if you like it or not..
Do you seriously think the highest developed countries in the world would use concrete, if your weird statement were true?
@@OmmerSyssel Concrete sleepers are more brittle and can crack without notice. IF concrete sleepers are SO much better in every situation, then why are they not universal? I've seen tracks where they are all concrete sleepers...except at the switches.
Sooooo , Amtrak is like , the Swift Trucks on rails ?! lol
Strong nobody said it was Amtraks tracks.
If you read the full description you will see "The accident occurred on track owned and maintained by the Canadian National Railway Company."
I cannot read !! ...wait , how am i able to type this ? lol'z
IT'S A JOKE !! not a Dick. to take it so HARD.
No, I did not say you can not read, I was merely stating that you did not appear to have read the entire write up.
And yes, I have occasionally gone off half-cocked without reading, or even misreading an article!!
@@sapper82 Canadians. 🤦♂
Typical CN
This explanation is hogwash. The initial gap cannot be explained by thermal expansion alone - unless the original rail was laid down in extreme heat. Steel coefficients of expansion are right around 1.2x10e-05 (per Kelvin degree) So the new rail, based on ambient temperature difference alone, would have be lengthened by only 0.0003" difference. Even extending this to 1/4-mile welded track segment, that doesn't get you anywhere near 2+ inches difference, even with a roughyl 20-degree kelvin warming. Something's amiss here.
The simplified calculation we use in the field to calculate rail expansion is (0.000078)x(length of rail being expanded, in feet)x(difference between target rail temp and curent rail temp, in Farenheit). Using 1600 feet of rail and a 2.5" expansion, the rail only needs to change temperature by about 20 degrees, F.
Most railroads set a stress-free temperature between 105F and 120F for their rail. A contraction of about 2.5" seems possible at about 60F if the rail was set at the specified SFT before it was cut.
I've had a 1" gap cut in the morning at 40F close up and bind the rail by lunch time in March with a high of 60F that day.
I'm looking straight at a CRC materials expansion coefficients table, and I'm telling you, all the ferric alloys are expressed in "ppm" - parts per MILLION. They're all in the neightborhood of about 11 per C degree, and around 6 per F degree. Now owing to some of the special ingredients of rail steel [Mn is one that I know of], I'm willing to raise that to about 7.8 ppm per F degree, as you suggest. That's 0.0000078 - not 0.000078. And that's why I said that even a 1/4 mile track length would expand about 1/4" over a 20-degree range. For 1600' track sections I still get only about 1/2" over a 40-degree range. Where the decimal point is matters.
@@jimwinchester339 if you check your coefficient, it’s 11x10^-6 mm/mmC. Put it in the equation of thermal expansion with a delta of 11C (20F) and a rail length of 487680mm (1600ft) and you get about 61mm, or 2.5in. The 0.000078 coefficient is probably to convert both mm to ft and C to F.
We can talk books all day. I’ve personally marked rail for expansion and monitored plenty of expansion operations to get rail to a target SFT, and it behaves as I’ve described.