Let’s consider what it means to have a testimony? Is it based on the Church? Or the Spirit of the Lord? If you feel the church leaders are wrong, you are alone. Isaiah would agree with you. Isaiah 56, Ezekiel 34 and a boatload of other scriptures, would indicate that you are right in that the church leader ship in the last days would become corrupted. Do you reject Jesus now? Joseph Smith was not what others that condemn him say he was. I would have you look at people of Faith that have not taken the path away from our Heavenly Father. A corporation is not God. Although it does teach many many wonderful teaching of Jesus. My son Jorell was in your Ward in Arizona and has a very positive impression of you and your family. Do you reject all the feelings you had from God, the miracles, the faith and everything that you gave to God. Now that you are a celebrity of sorts, can you say that God does not exist? Will this be the Legacy you will give your children. Perhaps you’re just misinformed. Try these researchers: Rob Fotheringham and his experience inside the church. You might also look at Hemlock Knots. No amount of naysayers will ever be able to bend the truth to their will. If the leaders are wrong (and they are), the Lord will condemn them and hold them accountable. Our job is to help our brothers and sisters, and to do as the Lord asked us to do. Love God, with all our heart, my mind and strength, and our neighbor as our self. Jesus did not attach Caiaphas and the leaders of the church in his day. He set the example, can we do no less?
@@petervincent3560 Hi Peter, I really love your son and his family. As far as I know I have never denied that God exists. Do I see enough problems with the Abrahamic religions' conception of God that I no longer believe in that? Yes, I do--but there's an important distinction there that you may be missing. Remember that if someone does not accept your conception of God doesn't mean they've rejected one altogether. Beyond that, I can just say that I hope the legacy I leave to my kids is the desire to--even in the face of severe pressure--stand up for what they think is right. That's all I've done. For the record, I've received (and expected) precisely zero dollars for any podcast appearance I've done. Speaking out publicly has likely severely limited my future career prospects. I've done these things only because I believe it the right thing to do--against my own self-interest in many ways. If my kids end up reaching different conclusions than me about the Church or any other aspects of their lives, I want them to follow what they think is right as I've attempted to do. So if that's the legacy and message they've received from me--I'd be proud. I do not consider myself a naysayer--nor do I appreciate the label. I still have many friends who are active members of the Church who have thanked me repeatedly for these podcast appearances because outside pressure tends to make the Church a better place for those who remain. If you feel the Church is working for you, I am sincerely happy for you and would not want to convince you otherwise. I share my perspective for people who are actively questioning and looking for new ways to think about the narratives that they--like me--were raised with. I personally know that when I started to question and recognize problematic things in the Church, I needed just to feel like I wasn't crazy and people sharing their perspective was huge in helping me process. If my comments don't resonate with you, perhaps they're not just for you? Again, my invitation does stand--if you can correct something I stated that is incorrect, please let me know and I'll amend. Please say hi to Jorell and Trisha for me!
Thank you for always having great videos! I was raised in the church for 33 years and I left about a year ago. It has been quite a shock for my family especially since my dad is the bishop of our ward and my mom and grandparents are very active. I am to the point now where I don’t even know if I believe in God or not because of all of the lies that have been told in the church!
Hi Ashley! Thank you for watching! That’s so hard. I’ve definitely been there. Follow your heart, do what feels right day to day. The good news is, you don’t even have to figure it out. No eternal consequences anymore. And if there IS a God, they will understand where your heart is ❤️
At 34 years so deeply questioning what has been such a giant part of your life must be so hard. And scary. I wish you lots of strength, courage, curiosity and good friends at your side.
Hooray for Ashley. Welcome to the ex-Mormon community. It's not going to be easy as they will never give up on your soul, but just keep in mind that there are many of us out there who will always be by your side and help you see through it all.
@@CultstoConsciousness thank you so much for the support Shelise! My faith crisis has felt earth shattering (I know that sounds dramatic lol) but it has flipped my world upside down! But I am still the same good and loving person so I know that everything will be ok! Thank you for all that you are doing 😊
@@inkenhafner7187 thank you soo much! I really appreciate that and I know that I am making the right choice even though I never thought in a million years I wouldn’t be Mormon lol
I’m not LDS but I did read the BOM. One of my issues was 3 Nephi chapters 8 and 9. 15 cities destroyed including innocent children. Straight up genocide. When I bring it up as immoral I’m always shot down. “Sometimes God has to kill innocent children”. WHAT!? Or someone told me it’s ok because all those kids went straight to the celestial kingdom. It had that Old Testament flavor like the Abraham/Isaac thing. Now when I’m asked about being Mormon I always respond with “I can’t lower my moral standards to become Mormon”.
Same with me as I read BOM last autumn but I didn't want to join LDS. When Jesus died, in the Bible the darkness lasted only 3 hours, and no one died, in fact the opposite happened: "The graves broke open, and many of God's people who had died were raised to life" (Matthew 27:52). Joseph Smith was a false prophet when he lied in 3 Nephi 8, 9, he wrote that when Jesus died in Jerusalem darkness lasted for 3 days and it in 3 Nephi 9 it was Jesus who destroyed at least 10 big cities including Zarahemla. There must have been not a thousand dead but tens of thousands died and it says that all were killed by Jesus. Of course that isn't true, it's nice to know that Jesus never killed anyone. Probably J. Smith did write these lies to keep his followers in fear so he could have full obedience and control over them. Fear of destruction & damnation is coming up again when he starts to practice polygamy, then he does the same thing when he threatens with eternal punishments if they won't marry him. That is how a false prophet lived his life. He was a liar, a sex predator, a clever manipulator. BOM is just a made-up story, full of obvious mistakes like anachronisms, and there never were any gold plates that's the only reason why they had to "disappear". God wouldn't have had any reasons at all why he couldn't have left the plates here just like scriptures from Old & New Testament are available to all mankind to examine in numerous old texts manuscripts ranging from hundreds to more than 2000 years old findings. No archeological findings after almost 200 years can support BOM, in fact nothing has been found of millions of people who lived and finally died on a huge battlefield and again they just like the plates had to disappear! But absolutely nothing has been found of them which proves it was all just a hoax.
I am native american. I thought because the church said I was jewish that was. The dna proves I am not jewish. The mind games and erasing our culture is evil.
This family is so brave! Their simple recognition that parents have a right to be informed, was correct! And their church told them they weren’t welcome anymore. Protect the children first!!!
I was raised in a conservative Baptist denomination, but recently my mother joined a Non-denominational church and has pushed it onto me. I actually went to her church and felt it was kind of cultural which made me start doing research into other cults and I have fallen in love with your channel, it’s so interesting seeing your guest’s stories and seeing the effects of different religions on peoples lives. You are doing an amazing thing and shedding light on so many individuals stories! Thank you for what you do, you are truly enlightening and shedding light on so many different religions and high demand and control groups. Keep doing what you are doing! Love your channel and podcast!
I’ve been binging your videos and this has been one of my favorite listens. I’m a very technical thinker, so faith is hard for me. The experience Kolby had teaching the story of Abraham literally has taken the words out of my brain. That story makes me think that I will never be able to be a faithful person because I could never sacrifice my child, or follow such sinister commands BLINDLY. This made me feel very validated because I’ve never heard anyone talk about this story and say what I’ve thought for years.
I’m so happy it resonated! If you’re a technical thinker, here are a few you might also like: th-cam.com/video/UHpt0y5j9FE/w-d-xo.htmlsi=mOygVRrJwGYatYvP th-cam.com/video/yT-NTf-v_y4/w-d-xo.htmlsi=r4ewefTVjsrf_FWX th-cam.com/video/2we1mRVm1tM/w-d-xo.htmlsi=BMgQhj6MA0H_vbXS
Oh my gosh, I related to this so much! I didn’t grow up Mormon, but I came from an evangelical tradition. His “secret tests”, especially in childhood, were things I did, too! And I came to a very similar conclusion: that I was flawed (extra flawed because I was female). Loved this thoughtful, emotional, and analytical take on high demand religions and the lies they sell us so early. Thank you.
Same. I was raised Roman Catholic and thought I deserved to go to hell for not believing enough. Because all the things I was told would happen to "true believers" didn't happen to me. Therefore logic stated that I wasn't a true believer and deserved to suffer in hell for eternity. I was at most 9 when I came to this conclusion. Which is just so wrong on so many levels. Ironically encountering "the real world" made me realize it wasn't the satanist orgy hellhole I'd been expecting. And then the blocks just crumbled and I realized it wasn't that I was a bad Catholic, I just never was one, I was just brainwashed into thinking I was.
I remember having a numinous kind of experience, and was told that I imagined it. So they tell us we can have the direct experience of God, Jesus, angels, whatever, but if we do, we are told we are not good enough and we must be making it up. I never let go of the memory of it however, and as an adult, was able to reclaim it in my spiritual life outside of the church I left at age 19.
My dad used to preach that all other religions, including Baptist, were “unaware they were going to hell”. My dad was an Assembly of God pastor. My mom was Baptist when he met my mom. 😮 I went on a mission trip with YWAM and there was a catholic in the group who also said the same thing. All religions do it! It’s hard to wrap your head around it sometimes.
I have always loved archeology. After being out of the church since Covid and having deconstructed a lot, I am taking biological Anthropology to work toward finishing off my AA in college. We have been learning about the different hominins and it is amazing how the human body can adapt!
I am not a Mormon and I was actually raised atheist but I am so interested in how people construct these ideals in families- so crazy how we can get wrapped up in these crazy ass ideals!
I grew up in the pentecostal Christian church and I can relate fully with these stories and the result of feeling shame and guilt for not being good enough because God never showed up for me when I needed him most.
My dad is a Mormon lawyer and is trying to take my kids because I’m trying to leave the church. How could I get I touch with an attorney who can practice in Texas and defend me and my kids? My daughters need me to fight this properly.
I listened to this session today (August 24, 2023). It really resonated with me and some of my faith questioning. Raised Methodist, but really have a logical thinking brain. So I view the bible as more of an allegory versus literal history. I believe in a God of Love, and that God doesn’t make errors but the devil is ever present, and we need to love those around us. Skin color does not make someone better, character does. I have almost quite attending church over the LBG…. topic. All are welcome, but are limited in how they participate.
I am very impressed with your humility, integrity, and humanity in your interviews. You seem to have a seasoned soul. This topic happens all the time in any group or religion. As adults we need to help young parents understand how to assert their authority over any leadership concerning children and youth. Even college age. Those who try to protect an image or a financial resource at the expense of a child are truly misguided. It takes a lot of courage to do the right thing and stand firm. This is not judgement of others as much as protection of innocence. Another great voice and a great warning. Your interviews and guests are well worth the time spent to hear them.
I can so relate to being a small child and the story of Peter walking on water! It had been so long I almost forgot about it but that is what we were taught as young children. If we had enough faith we could walk on water like Peter. So crazy to think about now but I remember the feelings of inadequacy that it made me feel.
Basically (at least for much of the Church's history), even for adults, especially missionaries, a very similar thing has applied. So many faith-promoting missionary miracle stories have been peddled in church literature, conference talks and so on. Stories about whole congregations miraculously converted because of the faith and courage of a missionary. Stories of miraculous mission healings and conversions talked about incessantly. Stories about casting out evil spirits.... Young missionaries go out thinking that they're going to be so righteous, pure and faithful that they'll personally experience those kinds of grand miracles too. Then the miracles don't happen. They never happen, really. So the missionaries who took the stories at face value blame themselves and/or try to make up miracles out very mundane events. It takes a while for some of them to finally realize that maybe the problem was actually the miracle stories...as in they weren't true at all or they were events that were exaggerated beyond recognition. Some never allow themselves to question to that extent.
@@TEAM__POSEID0N Such a good point--and it's absolutely true. When you listen to those "miracle" stories from my position, they really just sound silly and like wishful thinking. I saw a missionary touting it as a "miracle" that an investigator they'd been working with for a long time attended Church for the first time--45 mins late. Separating it out, that's calling a "miracle" the fact that someone showed up somewhere they'd agreed to be almost an hour late. Not sure that should rise to the level of "miraculous."
It’s such a trip to analyze our childhood beliefs. Children have such vivid imaginations where anything is possible. Where it gets problematic is when you damper that creative energy with “worthiness”, right? It would be like saying, “you can be anything when you grow up! IF you don’t sin, pray every day, achieve perfection, etc etc” it’s honestly very abusive.
17:47 Your story about your grandpa is an unhealed hurt. This is why you still cry when you talk about it and him 🩵 Having some of my own, It may always hurt. I try to live with mine as a true expression of love, even though it's painful 🩷😢
My one friend has 4 kids, they are both super active in the church. But it works for them. They will never leave. I had to leave. It was bad getting a civil divorce.
What an organized thinker. Love KR's framework of 'we all are a collection of stories.' Keen: SAS's point linking elevated suicide rates among Utah youth & the 'in the next life you won't be LGBTQ' narrative Had not realized that was an explicit aspect of Church teaching, HUGE YIKES.
One thing I've noticed that a lot of ex Mormons say is "i was told that THE CHURCH WAS TRUE" they shoved that down our throats so bad as children. They beat into your brain 'this is true" blah blah. It's damaging mentally because then you're scared to stand up and leave. My mom still yells at me sometimes about it and I'm 27
It's incredibly damaging because when the façade falls away, many post-Mormons are left questioning every single aspect of their identity and who they are. It can be incredibly freeing and healing when someone gets to that level, but it makes it so much harder to originally get there.
@@reddish22 yes! My grandmother is 73, been a Mormon her whole life, and she's dealing with that. She called me one day and asked "what do you think about the church?" So I was honest because I always am. Turns out she had been researching other branches of Christianity because she finally learned about all the crap the LDS church has done. She said "Jessie i really don't know how to feel.. I've been lied to for so long". Broke my heart but I'm so proud of her for educating herself
Lol! After Covid, it bothered me the Prophet did not come out beforehand and warn us of what was to come. I think I had a better insight as a person having a near death experience. I felt and knew something bad was coming our way. But what hit me was, why in the world down to kids we bear our testimony saying we know this church is true and state JS is our true prophet. I sat there thinking why are we all programmed to say the same thing. I know there is a God. He has a son, Jesus Christ. I may not agree with everything the LDS Church teaches but I will say one must connect with the earth in order to be spiritually inclined. Ground yourself to find their presence and the spirit of those who are no longer with us. May peace be with you.
@@jessicabland6134wow that is beautiful I wish I could talk to my grandmother about the church… it’s caused so much damage to the women in my family :(
I'd love to share my experience with you. I'm a spiritual polygamist against my will. I'm sealed to two living women and couldn't get a cancellation despite two meetings with a general authority. I love your platform. Keep doing what you're doing!!!
This interview is so good, I will have to listen to it again. I discover so many interesting people in your podcast, thanks. Shelise, I love fashion and I like the blouse you wear in this interview, it complements your skin tones and brings you out.
This is a good video. It is heartbreaking to hear about the young boy attempting to walk on water. It helps me process my deconstruction that has spanned over 20 years. Most of the people that I grew up with in church have continued to be faithful. The church of christ is beyond patriarchal. Women have no value and are not allowed to even speak during the church service. 😢 It makes me sad to realize that it continues year after year. I've wondered about doing a TH-cam about leaving the church of christ. This show helps me to see that we have many high demand church groups.
Excellent interview Shelise and Kolby! You asked him good questions and he is a great story teller. Thoroughly enjoyed hearing his thought process. I’m an ex Christian and resonated with his point about worshipping a god that can change the rules on a whim.
@blimeyhermione07 -- are you an ex-Christian? Or just an ex-Mormon? (there is a difference ...). In any case, try believing in The God Who only gave us ten "rules" -- none of which have been changed - :-)
@@sagesaith6354I want to agree with you but how do you explain all the killing in the OT squared up with the commandment "thou shalt not kill"? It's something that bothers me...
@@Song-Girl-Still-Singing the difference comes from understanding the intent of the commandment, which is not to commit intentional murder of an innocent person. it is not the same as killing which occurs as part of war -- in particular a war in which God is bringing judgement on a heathen and/or rebellious nation. The Wikipedia article for "Thou Shalt Not Kill" gives a fairly good coverage of the issue.
@@sagesaith6354 that makes sense but it seems like the 10 commandments were given without qualifiers so it just feels inconsistent when these things happen. What about Christ's teachings to love your enemies and turn the other cheek (no longer an eye for an eye but a new way of living/being)? How do you think this applies with modern wars?
Real Truth Resonates. Real Honest Truthers only Recognize what Honestly RESONATES . anything else is circumspect. Truth Stands on it's Own. Doesn't ever need to be ' propped ' up. Actual Facts will always self Verify and Validate themselves
I grew up jw, the story of Abraham was terrifying. It's a big story, talked about and brought up all the time, the story of Abraham's unwavering faith. To me, it just meant that my parents could kill me at any time.
That terrified me too. I remember being in church and it was being talked about and thinking, if my dad started hearing voices and killed me all these people would support him.
Love love LOVE your guests and discussions! Sadly slavery is still alive today in being Mormon 🫣🤫😥 Thank you for all you do in helping give critical thinking, pondering, and retrospect a voice with clarity ❤ raised in this corporation from birth with a strong pioneer heritage preached, never given my consent. I've had my work cut out for me and I'm forever grateful to the brave souls who dare be true to themselves and share it openly & publicly. I find my thoughts and words given a voice. This brings me the courage and strength I need 🥰 TY TY TY! Yes to Part 2 here!! ps loving your rose quartz in the background, definitely influencing the love energies 💝
Though I am a Mennonite, I have had many discussions with my Jewish friends across the spectrum of Judaism. When our urban Mennonite church was going through a heavy time of human sexuality discussions, a very vocal, conservative west coast Mennonite church wanted to talk to us about Inerrancy and absolute truth in scripture. Our minister and I talked to a dear Orthodox Jewish friend. His response was, "That's the problem with you Christians. You want it all to be true. Is there truth? Of course! Could be! It's all the word of men, kind of one-sided. Divinely inspired? Yes, but does that equate to Inerrancy? Ask more questions, which is the Jewish tradition. "
While in the Navy stationed at Pearl Harbor, Hi, I experienced constantly, the in your face evangelization of these missionaries constantly. It didn't work, they even took me to a church dance and introduced me to this gorgeous Mormon woman, hoping this would bring me into the Church. Needless to stay it didn't work.
Ohhh yes. They have a huge presence in hawaii. Thanks to BYU over there. In fact, I was dead set on attended byu hawaii when I was a junior in HS. So glad I didn’t. Even though hawaii is amazing
@james maranki I'm not Catholic, but I always wondered if it's because they took so many Catholic terms for their own use. (Priest, Bishop, sacrament, etc) They even have their own form of confession (telling your "bishop" your sins). Ironic that the Catholic church is 2000 years old and the Mormons are just over 200 years old. Just my own guess.
Two things: Muslims tell the sacrifice story about Ishmael and they see themselves as descended from Ishmael. Second there’s a similar story in Greek mythology-Agamemnon sacrificing Iphigenia. And the Greek one is really rough because she’s only saved in a later story where it is “ revealed” that Diana secretly saved her and replaced her with a deer. Highly recommend Joseph Campbell for seeing the archetypes that run throughout human history/story/myth. (For me this is evidence of a shared divine essence, and I also know this can bring some to atheism/agnosticism. And that’s okay too.)
I'm playing catch up since discovering your channel. Regarding Abraham and Isaac, two points: 1) An all-knowing God wouldn't have to test anyone's faith, since he would already know what the outcome would be if he did test you. 2) If he did decide to issue a superfluous test just for a laugh, he could say "Abe, go up to the top of the mountain and jump off. If your faith is strong, my angels will carry you safely to the ground." There's no need to psychologically torture a child as part of the test unless you're a psychopathic bastard. So God in that story is a psychopathic bastard.
To belittle, mitigate, or cover-up/ deny that abuse happened and to keep the abuser around Vulnerable Populations is not only immoral, but it is endangerment. The abused suffer long after, even the abuser is no longer present in the abused victim's life. Such things include: PTSD, CPTSD, Major Depressive Disorder, Suicidal Ideation, and Death. Also, depending on the type of abuse, there are additional issues as well.
with regard to Abrahamic sacrifice, I find it fascinating that the mormon doctrine of the age of accountability presents every mormon parent with the most horrific of choices: You can guarantee the exaltation of your children, but only if you give up your own. (Hopefully, I don't have to spell out how.) Essentially, every mormon who has children over the age of 8, either doesn't understand the doctrine, doesn't believe the doctrine or is selfishly unwilling to give up their salvation in exchange for the child's exaltation. Can this really be the plan of a loving God?
To Kranio. I don’t understand, I don’t know. I have been a member for many years and sincerely don’t know what you meant by this. I know you said you hoped not to explain.
@Brasguven I need to begin with a disclaimer: I don't believe that most members would consider the following, BUT it has happened and should be taken seriously. According to the church, all children who die before the age of 8 are guaranteed exhaultation in the celestial kingdom. So if you have a child under the age of 8, you have a choice to make. You can commit murder and punch your child's ticket to the celestial kingdom while simultaneously excluding yourself from glory or you can keep your options open and hope that your kid makes good choices. I can't imagine a loving God would even allow such a choice to exist, but according to mormonism it absolutely does and there have been cases of mothers killing their kids before dying by suicide just so there kids make it to the celestial kingdom. There are plenty of other ridiculous conclusions we can draw from this doctrine as well, but this one is bad enough and mormonism should be rejected based on this fact alone.
The Adam and Eve biblical story is essentially a fan-boy fiction based on earlier (I recall) Sumerian or Cannan text. Each temple for a god had a garden and those who worked in the garden. The better foods (e.g. tree of life in the biblical story) were saved for priests or offerings to gods and the workers wete usually banned from eating of the good produce, under pain of death (most penalties were death). God uses the plural in Genesis, as it was originally written for a pantheon of Gods. It's pretty much undisputed in bible scholar circles that the origional books of the old testament were written and re-written and added to that eventually elevated Yahweh (the storm/war god) and then he became the only god (despite him commanding there shall be no OTHER gods before him).
Where can I share the experience I had when I was in a high counsel in a stake of Ecuador with some returned missionaries that were having a moral behavior serving in Bolivia..?
Thank you Shelise & Kolby for such a thoughtful interview. Upon reflection I agree with Kolby's advice to rely upon science & scientific method meaning rational, observable data to guide one's choices. This will pretty much wipe out all religious belief from one's life because religion is an emotional control system borne out of our basic human need to explain the patterns of birth, life, death, agriculture, civilization building as humans passed from nomadic hunter gatherer groups to fixed agricultural societies that became city builders. (Hence Abraham's 12 tribes settled down first in Egypt then conquered their own place.) Old testament is a description of early civilizations with ritual sacrifices of animals, children, whole cities to justify the creation of Hebrew religious state. Ditto that for millenia up till 1830s Upstate New York.
It's a bit of a misnomer to conflate "religion" with *faith* and *belief*. To be sure, there have been many things done in error (falsehood) within the realm of "religion". But -- done due to falsehood. Which leaves the other side -- things done in Truth //// " .... advice to rely upon science & scientific method meaning rational, observable data to guide one's choices. This will pretty much wipe out all religious belief from one's life because religion is an emotional control system borne out of our basic human need to explain the patterns of birth, ... //// Religion is not the same as faith. Yes, you may do away with a great deal of "religion", but you cannot eliminate the need for faith -- both empirical faith and spiritual faith. Reliance upon science & scientific method meaning rational, observable data still requires faith -- both to believe in: 1. the consistancy of the empirical experience (i.e. the belief that it has always been that way, and it always will be that way) 2. the absence of anything beyond the empirical (i.e. the belief that there is nothing beyond what can be empirically known). Our human experience incorporates functions of both knowledge (Latin scientia -- knowledge) and belief, faith. For a quick overview of epistemology, complete the following sentences: I *know* something when _________________________ I *believe* something when _________________________ Do you *know* that your car will start the next time you turn the key in the ignition? Or do you *believe* that it will. Do you *know* that you will be alive ten minutes after reading this? Or do you *believe* that you will.
I know it’s probably not the greatest place to bring this up, but Kolby brought up slavery ending, and I thought it prudent to mention that it hasn’t really ended, it just evolved. Now we only make incarcerated people slaves! Now, instead of not paying people, companies outsource their labour to 3rd world countries to maximize profits… basically, without an underclass to exploit, capitalism doesn’t really work. Anyway, I really enjoyed this conversation! I left the church almost two decades ago, but I just sort of stopped going for my own sanity, and never really debriefed, so now I’m obsessively looking at other ex Mormons and their experiences to sort of come to terms with what I may have left behind, and how I view myself and the church and the world at large now that I’ve been so far removed from living the life. Thanks for sharing!
That's a really good point--there are still many, many problems for humanity to work on navigating and solving together: including slavery and it's abhorrent extensions. I did not mean to suggest the work is completely done. In that sense, my point wasn't that Enlightenment thinking has solved all of our problems, just that we know it is the one tried-and-true way to do so eventually.
You bring up a valid point. Something to sit with for sure. Im happy this video can be helpful! Best of luck to you on your deconstruction/re-construction!
This was a lot of the reasoning of why I left after working for cps and being drugged and abused on temple square only to find everything covered up for perpetrators. Thank you for speaking out.
I totally have respect for lawyers. My uncle was a lawyer, and so was my cousin. My cousin managed to pass the bar here. I was a convert in the church. My uncle was a notary, and he notarized my exit letter.
Lawyers are servants of the tyrannical and completely fraudulent construct of man-made laws. There is only one authority, and that's God. There is no authority among men. Natural law (God's law) is the only valid law. Men pretending to have authority are only mimicking, and mocking, God.
I love how he brought up Abraham! I've been thinking about that a lot because I think that Jehovah the God that commanded that is so twisted and screwed up.
About 20 or 30 years ago, some of the members in the Church liked to imply that the great abominable church described by Nephi in the Book of Mormon was the Catholic Church ( I live in Asia, but I think that's the case all round the world when we talked about Catholic Church at that time). I don't know how they felt when the First Presidency and the Quorum of Twleve visited Vatican (or Rome) to meet with Pope Francis and had a very pleasant conversation with him.
Agreed on all points. The Catholic Church is the head of the "Abominable Church" and the whore of Babylon/mystery Babylon. Nelson shook hands with the Man of Sin/antChrist--as Luther and Huss called the Pope.
The last part of this interview reminds me of a passage from Tim Minchin’s Storm…Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed. Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved.
@@CultstoConsciousness if you get a chance, Tim Minchin is an incredibly talented musician, song writer and articulate humanist & atheist. Some of his best works on the subject. But be warned he can use a bit of salty language. 🤣 Prejudice - th-cam.com/video/KVN_0qvuhhw/w-d-xo.html Thank you god - th-cam.com/video/IZeWPScnolo/w-d-xo.html Storm - th-cam.com/video/jIWj3tI-DXg/w-d-xo.html The pope song - th-cam.com/video/JkOHDoEkPW0/w-d-xo.html And thank you for your compassionate interviews!
I totally remember being around 10 or 12 and being severely agitated that Black individuals could not receive the priesthood or what-have-you (left when I was 15). It was a shocking moment to me. We had several Black families in our ward, and so I didn’t understand why they couldn’t. In my young mind, they were also God’s children. And, I had plenty of Black friends, one little girl in particular, at my public school whom I was extremely fond of, and an awesome 5th grade teacher who was a very smart, eloquent and attractive Black man (all the moms thought he was great 😂), and so I’ve never understood the just utter disregard and racism, I think, in the Mormon church regarding Black people. And, it was just them, because Mexicans, or whoever else, didn’t face those problems. Just UGH. Pisses me off.
Also, a Bishop in one of the wards that I was in (he wasn’t bishop while I was there - maybe ten years or more later) who taught seminary while I was in 9th and 10th grade, was in the last few years prosecuted for being a perpetrator of a Ponzi scheme in the church - taking money from the elderly. Way to go, asshole. I was actually locker mates w his daughter in 9th and 10th. I feel bad for her. 😮😢
Very interesting and very good. It's true - having time to think about things is privileged (we also had babies - our first 3 in the first 4 years of my own legal career - as a mother working full time as a lawyer in the UK - and you just go with the flow of your existing religion when you hardly have a second and getting time for a shower even is hard. In my case it was Catholicism which is nothing like the requirements of mormonism other than I was going to church once a week. Shelise might say she had not experienced the discriminations of some others, but being female you are massively discriminated against in many religions.
Superb podcast 👏 Thank you! 🙏. I read Book of Mormon last autumn but after that I didn't want to join LDS. When Jesus died, in the Bible the darkness lasted only 3 hours, and no one died, in fact the opposite happened: "The graves broke open, and many of God's people who had died were raised to life" (Matthew 27:52). Joseph Smith was a false prophet when he lied in 3 Nephi 8, 9, where he wrote that when Jesus died in Jerusalem the darkness lasted for 3 days (in America) and according to 3 Nephi 9 it was Jesus who destroyed probably 15 big cities including Zarahemla. There must have been not only a thousand dead but tens of thousands died and it says that they all were killed by Jesus! Of course that isn't true, it's nice to know that Jesus never killed anyone. Probably J. Smith did write these lies to keep his followers in fear so he could have full obedience and control over them. Fear of destruction & damnation is coming up again when he starts to practice polygamy, then he does exactly the same thing, he threatens with eternal punishments if they won't marry him. That is how a false prophet lived his life. He was a liar, a sex predator, a clever manipulator, a cult leader. Joseph Smith was no different from our time's FDLS prophet Warren Jeffs who just followed Smith's doctrine about polygamy - yes Doctrine & Covenant 132 is still holy scriptures in the LDS church!! If we judge Warren Jeffs as a false prophet even a monster then JS should be judged likewise, Warren is just a follower of JS and Brigham Young (who had about 54 wives). BOM is just a made-up story, full of obvious mistakes like anachronisms, and there never were any gold plates that's the only reason why they had to "disappear". God wouldn't have had any reasons why he couldn't have left the plates here just like scriptures from Old & New Testament are available to all mankind to examine in numerous old texts manuscripts ranging from hundreds to more than 2000 years old findings. No archeological findings after almost 200 years can support BOM, in fact nothing has been found of millions of people who lived and finally died on a huge battlefield and of course they just like the plates had to completely disappear. But absolutely nothing has been found of them which is enough scientific proof that it was all just a hoax.
This channel is very helpful; I really thought members of controlling religions knew more about other perspectives on faith and, among Christians, their denomination's "place" in the pantheon 😉 of variations. I didn't realize I was so lucky to be raised in a boring, mainline protestant free thinking church. I want so badly to be full of justified rage at the behavior of many Christians affiliated with these zealous denominations. but understanding the brainwashing & manipulation involved, it's heart breaking to see and hear the actual reality. I am not a Christian, but am Jesus-centered ethically...I just wish everyone in those faith groups, which seem to actively avoid focusing of Jesus' main points, could know the completely accepting and loving Jesus that I was taught about.
Just found your podcast. I'll be back for sure. One of my odd hobbies is to listen, read and expose myself to every (anti) former LDS church member's story and reasons for leaving the faith. Kolby is a particularly interesting guest. I'm also a big fan of RFM, who I've gotten to know somewhat outside of his RFM persona. The two, both attorneys, have very similar, articulate argument and reasoning styles. Also a fan of Dehlin, but for different reasons. That all said, I'm an active, believing member of the LDS faith to this day. Turning over the problematic stones of religious belief is not just a hobby, but a personal quest to try to challenge my own faith. So far, it's done just the opposite. I'd love to sit in a room with Kolby and RFM and have a very long, in-depth didcussion on faith in general, and the LDS faith specifically. I like to think we'd get along nicely and have a spirited discussion at the very least. Kolby, if you're ever in St George (which most northern Utah/Idaho folks do have plans to visit Southern Utah in the relatively near future) I'd love to meet you in person.
So far, I don't have any plans to make it to St. George--but I'd be more than happy to discuss if you're ever in the Boise area (or want to discuss remotely online). In case you're unaware, RFM and I did a three-part series together on his podcast that goes very in-depth. RFM episodes 259, 260, 262.
We started deconstructing our faith on a more critical level while at University as well. We had nightmares and flashbacks after anthropology class because of the information about evolution. We felt SO guilty for getting an A in the class. How sick is that? 🙀
Jew here, the story of Issac. 1. Issac was NOT a baby. 2. As disgusting as the Issac story feels, it is kind of important in the context of the time. Many ancient religions had human sacrifice. The Issac story was a way to very clearly show that Abrahams god (later to be seen as a monotheistic god) does NOT condone or require human sacrifice.
That is a very good interpretation of the Abraham and Isaac story, much better than what I ever grew up with. Mormonism has leaders that actively teach this is the kind of faith required today--the faith to give these kinds of sacrifices.
Except later in the bible where he requires and accepts the sacrifice of a human girl in exchange for giving her father victory in battle. Except she’s a girl so not only does she not even get a name, she’s barely even a footnote and rarely ever discussed
I get soo frustrated because I too was like this guy! Recently I’ve been praying for 3 years to have a baby and been doing all the “righteous” things to get one yet nothing while everyone around me gets pregnant. How can I believe that a loving God picks favorites?
The pick and choose is what has gotten me as well. Not just the pick and choose who gets what blessings in life but the pick and choose what God is and what God isn’t (he is all loving and all righteous etc yet all too often the angry, jealous, and murederous God is left out). Oh but if ya question this then you are told it’s not murder since He owns us all anyways. Yet we aren’t all his because we may choose to be. It’s a lot of double talk. (I was non-denominational Christian)
Hi Rachel--it's in the second part. It's to eliminate tribalism and recognize that we need to find ways to work and live with and love people who believe differently than us (in a nutshell).
Feliz I was hearing a podcast I don’t know how long ago because it comes on when you were talking to somebody about Jehovah’s Witness and you were talking about how they get shun if they do the wrong thing and it came to my mind that’s the same Happ, same thing happens to Amish people if they don’t practice their religion
Great episode! I am amazed that Mormons interpretation of Christianity is to mimic Christ. We are not Christ. We are deeply flawed according to most Christians, and Christ died to atone for sins.
I was raised Christian-ish, my grandparents were lay speakers in the United Methodist church and I grew up with my grandmother reading and telling bible stories a lot and stuff, but didn't really get into religion myself until my teenage and young adult years, but I definitely tried the walking on water thing at the pool when I was a kid, too, after she told me that one. 🤣
Yep, the "image of the religion"/ "bringing reproach on Jehovah's name" is the number one repeat drilled very slyly, constantly, super righteously, into your brain. (exJW here)
I would like somebody to interview Dan Reynolds’s (lead singer Imagine Dragons). I had heard that when he was getting married to his wife, they are very good friends and I guess ex roommates were a gay couple and I guess they were very tight friends and when the gay couple was invited to the wedding, they said they had to decline because of dance being linked to the Mormon church, and that’s where the wedding was taking place. I had also learned that Diane had thrown some sort of a free concert near the Salt Lake City Mormon, main church, and that I had made apparently an impression on the church but I would like to know if that impression lasted and how long it lasted if Dan feels that that impact that he made was positive fleeting, temporary permanent, I would just love to know. I feel since you guys have a equal type of background in your religion that it might be easier to have a an honest in-depth conversation about this with him…. I don’t know it’s just a thought.
The walking on water 🌊 hits me. 6 year old kids should not be taught so seriously any religion. I have religious trauma about going to hell from WAY too much religion at a young age. It's not healthy!!
Traumatic memories. Raised Pentecostal..fire and brimstone scare tactics. I was terrified as a child. Then the movie "Earthquake" came out..I had nightmares for months of being crushed in an earthquake because I was not good enough.
@@millied4089 I fell asleep before prayers one night and had a terrible nightmare. I thought that was God punishing me for missing my prayers. I must have been 6 years old. No child should be that afraid of God, but that's how my brain absorbed the information. Make him happy or else. So sad for little me.
Just saw the part where Kolby's discussion as to how the story of Abraham and Isaac was a big part of of losing faith. I'm not from a Morman background but I totally get where he's coming from. As the late Christopher Hitchens said: If anyone were to come to me and tell me to sacrifice my child to show obedience to them, my reply would be "no, fuck you."
I get the idea of being understanding, but I've reached the point where I can't understand a people who will not call the police regarding criminal abuse of any kind. #obeyinhonoringandsustainingthelaw #areyouhonest
The Abraham and Isaac story never felt right to me...especially since Abraham had almost been sacrificed by HIS father to a "false idol". How is what God told him to do any different!? And did Sarah even have informed consent on the matter? I don't remember. She had waited and prayed for her only kid. How is God loving by telling her husband to off her kid?!
I converted to the church. After the initial new convert excitement wore off, I realized that the church wasn’t for me. As a 43 year old man finding a companion is next to impossible at that age unless you want to be a step dad to 3+ kids. Which I wasn’t looking for, I wanted someone younger so I can have my own kid(s). I told the two sister missionaries who taught me, one was supportive the other blocked me on Facebook.
Hey, how about being told to not say anything as a victim of abuse by either the enabler or the abuser to the victim themselves? Trust me, it happens, not just in a religious context, but just abusive situations.
Imo, clergy or any other person in a position of authority, and/or trust regardless of job or responsibilities [i.e. Bishop, teacher; etc.], especially when Vulnerable Populations are involved of whom they're around and responsible for NEED the toughest laws against them and the highest form of punishment for such parties found guilty. Imo, such people destroy lives whether through life-ending abise or abuse that they end up surviving death by slim chances. It is the same, there's a victim in all of this and they deserve justice.
You're right--I didn't want to get into the whole complicated narrative of Ishmael and Hagar because it wasn't central to the story of the actual sacrifice, but thanks for pointing that out.
Thanks Shelise for inviting me on. Really happy to see these stories connecting with so many people! You’re a rockstar.
Of course, Kolby! You were great! Part two coming very soon! 😁
Let’s consider what it means to have a testimony? Is it based on the Church? Or the Spirit of the Lord?
If you feel the church leaders are wrong, you are alone.
Isaiah would agree with you.
Isaiah 56, Ezekiel 34 and a boatload of other scriptures, would indicate that you are right in that the church leader ship in the last days would become corrupted.
Do you reject Jesus now? Joseph Smith was not what others that condemn him say he was. I would have you look at people of Faith that have not taken the path away from our Heavenly Father.
A corporation is not God. Although it does teach many many wonderful teaching of Jesus.
My son Jorell was in your Ward in Arizona and has a very positive impression of you and your family.
Do you reject all the feelings you had from God, the miracles, the faith and everything that you gave to God.
Now that you are a celebrity of sorts, can you say that God does not exist?
Will this be the Legacy you will give your children.
Perhaps you’re just misinformed.
Try these researchers:
Rob Fotheringham and his experience inside the church. You might also look at Hemlock Knots.
No amount of naysayers will ever be able to bend the truth to their will. If the leaders are wrong (and they are), the Lord will condemn them and hold them accountable. Our job is to help our brothers and sisters, and to do as the Lord asked us to do. Love God, with all our heart, my mind and strength, and our neighbor as our self.
Jesus did not attach Caiaphas and the leaders of the church in his day. He set the example, can we do no less?
Sorry, not alone! My bad.
@@petervincent3560 Hi Peter, I really love your son and his family. As far as I know I have never denied that God exists. Do I see enough problems with the Abrahamic religions' conception of God that I no longer believe in that? Yes, I do--but there's an important distinction there that you may be missing. Remember that if someone does not accept your conception of God doesn't mean they've rejected one altogether.
Beyond that, I can just say that I hope the legacy I leave to my kids is the desire to--even in the face of severe pressure--stand up for what they think is right. That's all I've done. For the record, I've received (and expected) precisely zero dollars for any podcast appearance I've done. Speaking out publicly has likely severely limited my future career prospects. I've done these things only because I believe it the right thing to do--against my own self-interest in many ways. If my kids end up reaching different conclusions than me about the Church or any other aspects of their lives, I want them to follow what they think is right as I've attempted to do. So if that's the legacy and message they've received from me--I'd be proud.
I do not consider myself a naysayer--nor do I appreciate the label. I still have many friends who are active members of the Church who have thanked me repeatedly for these podcast appearances because outside pressure tends to make the Church a better place for those who remain. If you feel the Church is working for you, I am sincerely happy for you and would not want to convince you otherwise. I share my perspective for people who are actively questioning and looking for new ways to think about the narratives that they--like me--were raised with. I personally know that when I started to question and recognize problematic things in the Church, I needed just to feel like I wasn't crazy and people sharing their perspective was huge in helping me process. If my comments don't resonate with you, perhaps they're not just for you? Again, my invitation does stand--if you can correct something I stated that is incorrect, please let me know and I'll amend.
Please say hi to Jorell and Trisha for me!
Thank you for these talks, they have helped me.
When he said, "I helped teach myself these lessons," a chord was struck within me. Well said!
Thank you for always having great videos! I was raised in the church for 33 years and I left about a year ago. It has been quite a shock for my family especially since my dad is the bishop of our ward and my mom and grandparents are very active. I am to the point now where I don’t even know if I believe in God or not because of all of the lies that have been told in the church!
Hi Ashley! Thank you for watching! That’s so hard. I’ve definitely been there. Follow your heart, do what feels right day to day. The good news is, you don’t even have to figure it out. No eternal consequences anymore. And if there IS a God, they will understand where your heart is ❤️
At 34 years so deeply questioning what has been such a giant part of your life must be so hard. And scary. I wish you lots of strength, courage, curiosity and good friends at your side.
Hooray for Ashley. Welcome to the ex-Mormon community. It's not going to be easy as they will never give up on your soul, but just keep in mind that there are many of us out there who will always be by your side and help you see through it all.
@@CultstoConsciousness thank you so much for the support Shelise! My faith crisis has felt earth shattering (I know that sounds dramatic lol) but it has flipped my world upside down! But I am still the same good and loving person so I know that everything will be ok! Thank you for all that you are doing 😊
@@inkenhafner7187 thank you soo much! I really appreciate that and I know that I am making the right choice even though I never thought in a million years I wouldn’t be Mormon lol
I’m not LDS but I did read the BOM. One of my issues was 3 Nephi chapters 8 and 9. 15 cities destroyed including innocent children. Straight up genocide. When I bring it up as immoral I’m always shot down. “Sometimes God has to kill innocent children”. WHAT!? Or someone told me it’s ok because all those kids went straight to the celestial kingdom. It had that Old Testament flavor like the Abraham/Isaac thing. Now when I’m asked about being Mormon I always respond with “I can’t lower my moral standards to become Mormon”.
That last line though! Mic drop!
the bible supports slavery and genocides, but that's something you conveniently forget? the contradictions of Christians. well, unless you're atheist?
Same with me as I read BOM last autumn but I didn't want to join LDS. When Jesus died, in the Bible the darkness lasted only 3 hours, and no one died, in fact the opposite happened: "The graves broke open, and many of God's people who had died were raised to life" (Matthew 27:52). Joseph Smith was a false prophet when he lied in 3 Nephi 8, 9, he wrote that when Jesus died in Jerusalem darkness lasted for 3 days and it in 3 Nephi 9 it was Jesus who destroyed at least 10 big cities including Zarahemla. There must have been not a thousand dead but tens of thousands died and it says that all were killed by Jesus. Of course that isn't true, it's nice to know that Jesus never killed anyone. Probably J. Smith did write these lies to keep his followers in fear so he could have full obedience and control over them. Fear of destruction & damnation is coming up again when he starts to practice polygamy, then he does the same thing when he threatens with eternal punishments if they won't marry him. That is how a false prophet lived his life. He was a liar, a sex predator, a clever manipulator. BOM is just a made-up story, full of obvious mistakes like anachronisms, and there never were any gold plates that's the only reason why they had to "disappear". God wouldn't have had any reasons at all why he couldn't have left the plates here just like scriptures from Old & New Testament are available to all mankind to examine in numerous old texts manuscripts ranging from hundreds to more than 2000 years old findings. No archeological findings after almost 200 years can support BOM, in fact nothing has been found of millions of people who lived and finally died on a huge battlefield and again they just like the plates had to disappear! But absolutely nothing has been found of them which proves it was all just a hoax.
@@petrisalonen4893 if you believe Jesus was God in the Old Testament, he most def did KILL people and was ok with slavery
I am native american. I thought because the church said I was jewish that was. The dna proves I am not jewish.
The mind games and erasing our culture is evil.
This family is so brave! Their simple recognition that parents have a right to be informed, was correct! And their church told them they weren’t welcome anymore. Protect the children first!!!
Absolutely!!
I was raised in a conservative Baptist denomination, but recently my mother joined a Non-denominational church and has pushed it onto me. I actually went to her church and felt it was kind of cultural which made me start doing research into other cults and I have fallen in love with your channel, it’s so interesting seeing your guest’s stories and seeing the effects of different religions on peoples lives. You are doing an amazing thing and shedding light on so many individuals stories! Thank you for what you do, you are truly enlightening and shedding light on so many different religions and high demand and control groups. Keep doing what you are doing! Love your channel and podcast!
I’ve been binging your videos and this has been one of my favorite listens. I’m a very technical thinker, so faith is hard for me. The experience Kolby had teaching the story of Abraham literally has taken the words out of my brain. That story makes me think that I will never be able to be a faithful person because I could never sacrifice my child, or follow such sinister commands BLINDLY. This made me feel very validated because I’ve never heard anyone talk about this story and say what I’ve thought for years.
I’m so happy it resonated! If you’re a technical thinker, here are a few you might also like:
th-cam.com/video/UHpt0y5j9FE/w-d-xo.htmlsi=mOygVRrJwGYatYvP
th-cam.com/video/yT-NTf-v_y4/w-d-xo.htmlsi=r4ewefTVjsrf_FWX
th-cam.com/video/2we1mRVm1tM/w-d-xo.htmlsi=BMgQhj6MA0H_vbXS
Oh my gosh, I related to this so much! I didn’t grow up Mormon, but I came from an evangelical tradition. His “secret tests”, especially in childhood, were things I did, too! And I came to a very similar conclusion: that I was flawed (extra flawed because I was female). Loved this thoughtful, emotional, and analytical take on high demand religions and the lies they sell us so early. Thank you.
Thank you, Jessica! 😁
Same. I was raised Roman Catholic and thought I deserved to go to hell for not believing enough. Because all the things I was told would happen to "true believers" didn't happen to me. Therefore logic stated that I wasn't a true believer and deserved to suffer in hell for eternity. I was at most 9 when I came to this conclusion. Which is just so wrong on so many levels. Ironically encountering "the real world" made me realize it wasn't the satanist orgy hellhole I'd been expecting. And then the blocks just crumbled and I realized it wasn't that I was a bad Catholic, I just never was one, I was just brainwashed into thinking I was.
I remember having a numinous kind of experience, and was told that I imagined it. So they tell us we can have the direct experience of God, Jesus, angels, whatever, but if we do, we are told we are not good enough and we must be making it up. I never let go of the memory of it however, and as an adult, was able to reclaim it in my spiritual life outside of the church I left at age 19.
My dad used to preach that all other religions, including Baptist, were “unaware they were going to hell”. My dad was an Assembly of God pastor. My mom was Baptist when he met my mom. 😮
I went on a mission trip with YWAM and there was a catholic in the group who also said the same thing. All religions do it! It’s hard to wrap your head around it sometimes.
I have always loved archeology. After being out of the church since Covid and having deconstructed a lot, I am taking biological Anthropology to work toward finishing off my AA in college. We have been learning about the different hominins and it is amazing how the human body can adapt!
I am not a Mormon and I was actually raised atheist but I am so interested in how people construct these ideals in families- so crazy how we can get wrapped up in these crazy ass ideals!
I grew up in the pentecostal Christian church and I can relate fully with these stories and the result of feeling shame and guilt for not being good enough because God never showed up for me when I needed him most.
Hi Melenie! Thank you for sharing ❤️🙏
I sadly was in Kolby's Stake in Nampa, ID and can vouch for what he said happened, happen.
I appreciate his story and I am deconstructing now
As a woman you were/are a marginalized group and the unbelievable thing is we frequently overlook it.
My dad is a Mormon lawyer and is trying to take my kids because I’m trying to leave the church. How could I get I touch with an attorney who can practice in Texas and defend me and my kids? My daughters need me to fight this properly.
That's wild. I can't see him winning. He has zero rights to do that
Block his number and move
A very similar thing happened to me. It's a real danger, even though many people will tell you otherwise.
I hope everything works out for you!!!
I listened to this session today (August 24, 2023). It really resonated with me and some of my faith questioning.
Raised Methodist, but really have a logical thinking brain. So I view the bible as more of an allegory versus literal history.
I believe in a God of Love, and that God doesn’t make errors but the devil is ever present, and we need to love those around us. Skin color does not make someone better, character does.
I have almost quite attending church over the LBG…. topic. All are welcome, but are limited in how they participate.
I am very impressed with your humility, integrity, and humanity in your interviews. You seem to have a seasoned soul. This topic happens all the time in any group or religion. As adults we need to help young parents understand how to assert their authority over any leadership concerning children and youth. Even college age. Those who try to protect an image or a financial resource at the expense of a child are truly misguided. It takes a lot of courage to do the right thing and stand firm. This is not judgement of others as much as protection of innocence. Another great voice and a great warning. Your interviews and guests are well worth the time spent to hear them.
16:33 oh his story breaks my heart!!
I can so relate to being a small child and the story of Peter walking on water! It had been so long I almost forgot about it but that is what we were taught as young children. If we had enough faith we could walk on water like Peter. So crazy to think about now but I remember the feelings of inadequacy that it made me feel.
Basically (at least for much of the Church's history), even for adults, especially missionaries, a very similar thing has applied. So many faith-promoting missionary miracle stories have been peddled in church literature, conference talks and so on. Stories about whole congregations miraculously converted because of the faith and courage of a missionary. Stories of miraculous mission healings and conversions talked about incessantly. Stories about casting out evil spirits.... Young missionaries go out thinking that they're going to be so righteous, pure and faithful that they'll personally experience those kinds of grand miracles too. Then the miracles don't happen. They never happen, really. So the missionaries who took the stories at face value blame themselves and/or try to make up miracles out very mundane events. It takes a while for some of them to finally realize that maybe the problem was actually the miracle stories...as in they weren't true at all or they were events that were exaggerated beyond recognition. Some never allow themselves to question to that extent.
@@TEAM__POSEID0N Such a good point--and it's absolutely true. When you listen to those "miracle" stories from my position, they really just sound silly and like wishful thinking. I saw a missionary touting it as a "miracle" that an investigator they'd been working with for a long time attended Church for the first time--45 mins late. Separating it out, that's calling a "miracle" the fact that someone showed up somewhere they'd agreed to be almost an hour late. Not sure that should rise to the level of "miraculous."
It’s such a trip to analyze our childhood beliefs. Children have such vivid imaginations where anything is possible. Where it gets problematic is when you damper that creative energy with “worthiness”, right? It would be like saying, “you can be anything when you grow up! IF you don’t sin, pray every day, achieve perfection, etc etc” it’s honestly very abusive.
@@TEAM__POSEID0N yes!!! Absolutely! And such a great point to bring up
I relate too! I was also a kid who tried to walk on water, believed I could do that if I had enough faith
I though I was going to hell when I walked away but my sanity demanded it. Thanks for making us see that lies and fear can completely mess you up.
Another interesting interview ❤
17:47 Your story about your grandpa is an unhealed hurt. This is why you still cry when you talk about it and him 🩵 Having some of my own, It may always hurt. I try to live with mine as a true expression of love, even though it's painful 🩷😢
Great podcast! I have listened to all of Kolby's interviews, such a sharp guy. Definitely would listen in to him again!
That’s great news! Because we have a second part together coming this Thursday or Monday!😁
Thanks Tawnya--I appreciate the kind words!
Shalese, I love your content! Kolby's story definitely puts fire in my belly. I love how both of your explain things and communicate.
Yank you so much! I’m glad you enjoyed it! 😁
My one friend has 4 kids, they are both super active in the church. But it works for them. They will never leave. I had to leave. It was bad getting a civil divorce.
wonderful episode, thanks for sharing his experiences, so glad for kolby and his family being free from the shackles of a high demand religion
What an organized thinker. Love KR's framework of 'we all are a collection of stories.' Keen: SAS's point linking elevated suicide rates among Utah youth & the 'in the next life you won't be LGBTQ' narrative Had not realized that was an explicit aspect of Church teaching, HUGE YIKES.
One thing I've noticed that a lot of ex Mormons say is "i was told that THE CHURCH WAS TRUE" they shoved that down our throats so bad as children. They beat into your brain 'this is true" blah blah. It's damaging mentally because then you're scared to stand up and leave. My mom still yells at me sometimes about it and I'm 27
exactly! (In my best kid’s voice) I’d wike to bear my testimony. I know dis chuch is twue. I luv my mom and dad…..” indoctrination much?
It's incredibly damaging because when the façade falls away, many post-Mormons are left questioning every single aspect of their identity and who they are. It can be incredibly freeing and healing when someone gets to that level, but it makes it so much harder to originally get there.
@@reddish22 yes! My grandmother is 73, been a Mormon her whole life, and she's dealing with that. She called me one day and asked "what do you think about the church?" So I was honest because I always am. Turns out she had been researching other branches of Christianity because she finally learned about all the crap the LDS church has done. She said "Jessie i really don't know how to feel.. I've been lied to for so long". Broke my heart but I'm so proud of her for educating herself
Lol! After Covid, it bothered me the Prophet did not come out beforehand and warn us of what was to come. I think I had a better insight as a person having a near death experience. I felt and knew something bad was coming our way. But what hit me was, why in the world down to kids we bear our testimony saying we know this church is true and state JS is our true prophet. I sat there thinking why are we all programmed to say the same thing. I know there is a God. He has a son, Jesus Christ. I may not agree with everything the LDS Church teaches but I will say one must connect with the earth in order to be spiritually inclined. Ground yourself to find their presence and the spirit of those who are no longer with us. May peace be with you.
@@jessicabland6134wow that is beautiful I wish I could talk to my grandmother about the church… it’s caused so much damage to the women in my family :(
I'd love to share my experience with you.
I'm a spiritual polygamist against my will. I'm sealed to two living women and couldn't get a cancellation despite two meetings with a general authority.
I love your platform.
Keep doing what you're doing!!!
I'd love to hear this story on this channel
This interview is so good, I will have to listen to it again. I discover so many interesting people in your podcast, thanks. Shelise, I love fashion and I like the blouse you wear in this interview, it complements your skin tones and brings you out.
Hi Chapman! Thanks so much! I like fashion too 😁
This is a good video.
It is heartbreaking to hear about the young boy attempting to walk on water.
It helps me process my deconstruction that has spanned over 20 years. Most of the people that I grew up with in church have continued to be faithful. The church of christ is beyond patriarchal. Women have no value and are not allowed to even speak during the church service. 😢
It makes me sad to realize that it continues year after year. I've wondered about doing a TH-cam about leaving the church of christ.
This show helps me to see that we have many high demand church groups.
I was also raised in the church of Christ. Very conservative hard core group that you don’t hear much about.
Excellent interview Shelise and Kolby! You asked him good questions and he is a great story teller. Thoroughly enjoyed hearing his thought process. I’m an ex Christian and resonated with his point about worshipping a god that can change the rules on a whim.
Thank you so much! I appreciate that!
@blimeyhermione07 -- are you an ex-Christian? Or just an ex-Mormon?
(there is a difference ...). In any case, try believing in The God Who only gave us ten "rules" -- none of which have been changed - :-)
@@sagesaith6354I want to agree with you but how do you explain all the killing in the OT squared up with the commandment "thou shalt not kill"? It's something that bothers me...
@@Song-Girl-Still-Singing the difference comes from understanding the intent of the commandment, which is not to commit intentional murder of an innocent person. it is not the same as killing which occurs as part of war -- in particular a war in which God is bringing judgement on a heathen and/or rebellious nation. The Wikipedia article for "Thou Shalt Not Kill" gives a fairly good coverage of the issue.
@@sagesaith6354 that makes sense but it seems like the 10 commandments were given without qualifiers so it just feels inconsistent when these things happen. What about Christ's teachings to love your enemies and turn the other cheek (no longer an eye for an eye but a new way of living/being)? How do you think this applies with modern wars?
I watched Kobly's Mormon Stories and RFM episodes when they came out. Such an awesome guy. Excited to watch this one!
That's very kind--thanks Ray!
Real Truth Resonates. Real Honest Truthers only Recognize what Honestly RESONATES . anything else is circumspect. Truth Stands on it's Own. Doesn't ever need to be ' propped ' up. Actual Facts will always self Verify and Validate themselves
Kolby ❤ your grandpa knows, and he forgives you ❤❤❤ a million times over he forgives you ❤❤❤
My Favorite comment..."Your Lawyer is showing ". This interview was awesome!
😁🙌
My lawyer is almost always showing :D
Really loved this video. THANKS so much. Second view. Great souls you two. God bless
Great interview. Very touching.
I grew up jw, the story of Abraham was terrifying. It's a big story, talked about and brought up all the time, the story of Abraham's unwavering faith. To me, it just meant that my parents could kill me at any time.
That terrified me too. I remember being in church and it was being talked about and thinking, if my dad started hearing voices and killed me all these people would support him.
Love love LOVE your guests and discussions! Sadly slavery is still alive today in being Mormon 🫣🤫😥 Thank you for all you do in helping give critical thinking, pondering, and retrospect a voice with clarity ❤ raised in this corporation from birth with a strong pioneer heritage preached, never given my consent. I've had my work cut out for me and I'm forever grateful to the brave souls who dare be true to themselves and share it openly & publicly. I find my thoughts and words given a voice. This brings me the courage and strength I need 🥰 TY TY TY! Yes to Part 2 here!! ps loving your rose quartz in the background, definitely influencing the love energies 💝
Hi! Welcome to C2C! Thank you for your kind words!! I’m so so so happy the discussions can be helpful!❤️🙏
Though I am a Mennonite, I have had many discussions with my Jewish friends across the spectrum of Judaism. When our urban Mennonite church was going through a heavy time of human sexuality discussions, a very vocal, conservative west coast Mennonite church wanted to talk to us about Inerrancy and absolute truth in scripture. Our minister and I talked to a dear Orthodox Jewish friend. His response was, "That's the problem with you Christians. You want it all to be true. Is there truth? Of course! Could be! It's all the word of men, kind of one-sided. Divinely inspired? Yes, but does that equate to Inerrancy? Ask more questions, which is the Jewish tradition. "
You guys are great. Thanks so much. Love the Truth
While in the Navy stationed at Pearl Harbor, Hi, I experienced constantly, the in your face evangelization of these missionaries constantly. It didn't work, they even took me to a church dance and introduced me to this gorgeous Mormon woman, hoping this would bring me into the Church. Needless to stay it didn't work.
They really tried to evangelize me partially because I'm Catholic. I don't know why they really go for Catholics.
Ohhh yes. They have a huge presence in hawaii. Thanks to BYU over there. In fact, I was dead set on attended byu hawaii when I was a junior in HS. So glad I didn’t. Even though hawaii is amazing
@james maranki I'm not Catholic, but I always wondered if it's because they took so many Catholic terms for their own use. (Priest, Bishop, sacrament, etc) They even have their own form of confession (telling your "bishop" your sins). Ironic that the Catholic church is 2000 years old and the Mormons are just over 200 years old. Just my own guess.
Thanks so much for this podcast.
Two things: Muslims tell the sacrifice story about Ishmael and they see themselves as descended from Ishmael. Second there’s a similar story in Greek mythology-Agamemnon sacrificing Iphigenia. And the Greek one is really rough because she’s only saved in a later story where it is “ revealed” that Diana secretly saved her and replaced her with a deer. Highly recommend Joseph Campbell for seeing the archetypes that run throughout human history/story/myth. (For me this is evidence of a shared divine essence, and I also know this can bring some to atheism/agnosticism. And that’s okay too.)
I'm playing catch up since discovering your channel. Regarding Abraham and Isaac, two points:
1) An all-knowing God wouldn't have to test anyone's faith, since he would already know what the outcome would be if he did test you.
2) If he did decide to issue a superfluous test just for a laugh, he could say "Abe, go up to the top of the mountain and jump off. If your faith is strong, my angels will carry you safely to the ground." There's no need to psychologically torture a child as part of the test unless you're a psychopathic bastard. So God in that story is a psychopathic bastard.
To belittle, mitigate, or cover-up/ deny that abuse happened and to keep the abuser around Vulnerable Populations is not only immoral, but it is endangerment. The abused suffer long after, even the abuser is no longer present in the abused victim's life.
Such things include: PTSD, CPTSD, Major Depressive Disorder, Suicidal Ideation, and Death. Also, depending on the type of abuse, there are additional issues as well.
with regard to Abrahamic sacrifice, I find it fascinating that the mormon doctrine of the age of accountability presents every mormon parent with the most horrific of choices: You can guarantee the exaltation of your children, but only if you give up your own. (Hopefully, I don't have to spell out how.) Essentially, every mormon who has children over the age of 8, either doesn't understand the doctrine, doesn't believe the doctrine or is selfishly unwilling to give up their salvation in exchange for the child's exaltation. Can this really be the plan of a loving God?
It’s pretty twisted, I agree.
To Kranio. I don’t understand, I don’t know. I have been a member for many years and sincerely don’t know what you meant by this. I know you said you hoped not to explain.
@Brasguven I need to begin with a disclaimer: I don't believe that most members would consider the following, BUT it has happened and should be taken seriously.
According to the church, all children who die before the age of 8 are guaranteed exhaultation in the celestial kingdom. So if you have a child under the age of 8, you have a choice to make. You can commit murder and punch your child's ticket to the celestial kingdom while simultaneously excluding yourself from glory or you can keep your options open and hope that your kid makes good choices. I can't imagine a loving God would even allow such a choice to exist, but according to mormonism it absolutely does and there have been cases of mothers killing their kids before dying by suicide just so there kids make it to the celestial kingdom. There are plenty of other ridiculous conclusions we can draw from this doctrine as well, but this one is bad enough and mormonism should be rejected based on this fact alone.
Really enjoying your channel! Keep up the good work!
Thank you, Sharon!
@@CultstoConsciousness I found your channel through Andrew and Aaron's channels.
I always find that the people who leave a church are a lot more Christian than the ones who stay.
The Adam and Eve biblical story is essentially a fan-boy fiction based on earlier (I recall) Sumerian or Cannan text. Each temple for a god had a garden and those who worked in the garden. The better foods (e.g. tree of life in the biblical story) were saved for priests or offerings to gods and the workers wete usually banned from eating of the good produce, under pain of death (most penalties were death). God uses the plural in Genesis, as it was originally written for a pantheon of Gods.
It's pretty much undisputed in bible scholar circles that the origional books of the old testament were written and re-written and added to that eventually elevated Yahweh (the storm/war god) and then he became the only god (despite him commanding there shall be no OTHER gods before him).
Where can I share the experience I had when I was in a high counsel in a stake of Ecuador with some returned missionaries that were having a moral behavior serving in Bolivia..?
Shelise, you haven't disappointed me yet and suspect you won't. I look forward to a new epis6each week. 💖
Thank you Shelise & Kolby for such a thoughtful interview. Upon reflection I agree with Kolby's advice to rely upon science & scientific method meaning rational, observable data to guide one's choices. This will pretty much wipe out all religious belief from one's life because religion is an emotional control system borne out of our basic human need to explain the patterns of birth, life, death, agriculture, civilization building as humans passed from nomadic hunter gatherer groups to fixed agricultural societies that became city builders. (Hence Abraham's 12 tribes settled down first in Egypt then conquered their own place.) Old testament is a description of early civilizations with ritual sacrifices of animals, children, whole cities to justify the creation of Hebrew religious state. Ditto that for millenia up till 1830s Upstate New York.
It's a bit of a misnomer to conflate "religion" with *faith* and *belief*.
To be sure, there have been many things done in error (falsehood) within the realm of "religion". But -- done due to falsehood. Which leaves the other side -- things done in Truth
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" .... advice to rely upon science & scientific method meaning rational, observable data to guide one's choices. This will pretty much wipe out all religious belief from one's life because religion is an emotional control system borne out of our basic human need to explain the patterns of birth, ...
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Religion is not the same as faith. Yes, you may do away with a great deal of "religion", but you cannot eliminate the need for faith -- both empirical faith and spiritual faith.
Reliance upon science & scientific method meaning rational, observable data still requires faith -- both to believe in:
1. the consistancy of the empirical experience (i.e. the belief that it has always been that way, and it always will be that way)
2. the absence of anything beyond the empirical (i.e. the belief that there is nothing beyond what can be empirically known).
Our human experience incorporates functions of both knowledge (Latin scientia -- knowledge) and belief, faith.
For a quick overview of epistemology, complete the following sentences:
I *know* something when _________________________
I *believe* something when _________________________
Do you *know* that your car will start the next time you turn the key in the ignition? Or do you *believe* that it will.
Do you *know* that you will be alive ten minutes after reading this? Or do you *believe* that you will.
❤thank you for another good episode. I’d love to hear RFM, Radio Free Mormon on your show or you on his show❤
I know it’s probably not the greatest place to bring this up, but Kolby brought up slavery ending, and I thought it prudent to mention that it hasn’t really ended, it just evolved. Now we only make incarcerated people slaves! Now, instead of not paying people, companies outsource their labour to 3rd world countries to maximize profits… basically, without an underclass to exploit, capitalism doesn’t really work.
Anyway, I really enjoyed this conversation! I left the church almost two decades ago, but I just sort of stopped going for my own sanity, and never really debriefed, so now I’m obsessively looking at other ex Mormons and their experiences to sort of come to terms with what I may have left behind, and how I view myself and the church and the world at large now that I’ve been so far removed from living the life. Thanks for sharing!
That's a really good point--there are still many, many problems for humanity to work on navigating and solving together: including slavery and it's abhorrent extensions. I did not mean to suggest the work is completely done. In that sense, my point wasn't that Enlightenment thinking has solved all of our problems, just that we know it is the one tried-and-true way to do so eventually.
You bring up a valid point. Something to sit with for sure. Im happy this video can be helpful! Best of luck to you on your deconstruction/re-construction!
@@reddish22 Damn, you did good Kolby. Now I'm gonna have to find those other interviews of yours (once I find 10 hours to spare!)
@@mylesmarkson1686 Thank you!
This was a lot of the reasoning of why I left after working for cps and being drugged and abused on temple square only to find everything covered up for perpetrators. Thank you for speaking out.
I totally have respect for lawyers. My uncle was a lawyer, and so was my cousin. My cousin managed to pass the bar here. I was a convert in the church. My uncle was a notary, and he notarized my exit letter.
is that what has to be done? a notarised exit letter to get removed from the member role?
Lawyers are servants of the tyrannical and completely fraudulent construct of man-made laws. There is only one authority, and that's God. There is no authority among men. Natural law (God's law) is the only valid law. Men pretending to have authority are only mimicking, and mocking, God.
I love how he brought up Abraham! I've been thinking about that a lot because I think that Jehovah the God that commanded that is so twisted and screwed up.
The version of the name that's 'jehova' is a mistranslation.
About 20 or 30 years ago, some of the members in the Church liked to imply that the great abominable church described by Nephi in the Book of Mormon was the Catholic Church ( I live in Asia, but I think that's the case all round the world when we talked about Catholic Church at that time). I don't know how they felt when the First Presidency and the Quorum of Twleve visited Vatican (or Rome) to meet with Pope Francis and had a very pleasant conversation with him.
Agreed on all points. The Catholic Church is the head of the "Abominable Church" and the whore of Babylon/mystery Babylon. Nelson shook hands with the Man of Sin/antChrist--as Luther and Huss called the Pope.
Just stumbling on this video
❤ 2 Kolby. ❤ 2 Shalise (sp) ❤ 2 God bcuz He loved us First. Thanx God❤❤❤🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉Sorry Shelise
The last part of this interview reminds me of a passage from Tim Minchin’s Storm…Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved.
Woaaaah. That last line 👏
@@CultstoConsciousness if you get a chance, Tim Minchin is an incredibly talented musician, song writer and articulate humanist & atheist.
Some of his best works on the subject. But be warned he can use a bit of salty language. 🤣
Prejudice - th-cam.com/video/KVN_0qvuhhw/w-d-xo.html
Thank you god - th-cam.com/video/IZeWPScnolo/w-d-xo.html
Storm - th-cam.com/video/jIWj3tI-DXg/w-d-xo.html
The pope song - th-cam.com/video/JkOHDoEkPW0/w-d-xo.html
And thank you for your compassionate interviews!
Thanks for recommending Tim Minchin! I'm a huge fan.
I totally remember being around 10 or 12 and being severely agitated that Black individuals could not receive the priesthood or what-have-you (left when I was 15). It was a shocking moment to me. We had several Black families in our ward, and so I didn’t understand why they couldn’t. In my young mind, they were also God’s children. And, I had plenty of Black friends, one little girl in particular, at my public school whom I was extremely fond of, and an awesome 5th grade teacher who was a very smart, eloquent and attractive Black man (all the moms thought he was great 😂), and so I’ve never understood the just utter disregard and racism, I think, in the Mormon church regarding Black people. And, it was just them, because Mexicans, or whoever else, didn’t face those problems. Just UGH. Pisses me off.
Also, a Bishop in one of the wards that I was in (he wasn’t bishop while I was there - maybe ten years or more later) who taught seminary while I was in 9th and 10th grade, was in the last few years prosecuted for being a perpetrator of a Ponzi scheme in the church - taking money from the elderly. Way to go, asshole. I was actually locker mates w his daughter in 9th and 10th. I feel bad for her. 😮😢
Very interesting and very good. It's true - having time to think about things is privileged (we also had babies - our first 3 in the first 4 years of my own legal career - as a mother working full time as a lawyer in the UK - and you just go with the flow of your existing religion when you hardly have a second and getting time for a shower even is hard. In my case it was Catholicism which is nothing like the requirements of mormonism other than I was going to church once a week. Shelise might say she had not experienced the discriminations of some others, but being female you are massively discriminated against in many religions.
Superb podcast 👏 Thank you! 🙏. I read Book of Mormon last autumn but after that I didn't want to join LDS. When Jesus died, in the Bible the darkness lasted only 3 hours, and no one died, in fact the opposite happened: "The graves broke open, and many of God's people who had died were raised to life" (Matthew 27:52). Joseph Smith was a false prophet when he lied in 3 Nephi 8, 9, where he wrote that when Jesus died in Jerusalem the darkness lasted for 3 days (in America) and according to 3 Nephi 9 it was Jesus who destroyed probably 15 big cities including Zarahemla. There must have been not only a thousand dead but tens of thousands died and it says that they all were killed by Jesus! Of course that isn't true, it's nice to know that Jesus never killed anyone. Probably J. Smith did write these lies to keep his followers in fear so he could have full obedience and control over them. Fear of destruction & damnation is coming up again when he starts to practice polygamy, then he does exactly the same thing, he threatens with eternal punishments if they won't marry him. That is how a false prophet lived his life. He was a liar, a sex predator, a clever manipulator, a cult leader. Joseph Smith was no different from our time's FDLS prophet Warren Jeffs who just followed Smith's doctrine about polygamy - yes Doctrine & Covenant 132 is still holy scriptures in the LDS church!! If we judge Warren Jeffs as a false prophet even a monster then JS should be judged likewise, Warren is just a follower of JS and Brigham Young (who had about 54 wives). BOM is just a made-up story, full of obvious mistakes like anachronisms, and there never were any gold plates that's the only reason why they had to "disappear". God wouldn't have had any reasons why he couldn't have left the plates here just like scriptures from Old & New Testament are available to all mankind to examine in numerous old texts manuscripts ranging from hundreds to more than 2000 years old findings. No archeological findings after almost 200 years can support BOM, in fact nothing has been found of millions of people who lived and finally died on a huge battlefield and of course they just like the plates had to completely disappear. But absolutely nothing has been found of them which is enough scientific proof that it was all just a hoax.
Yup, you understand it all. Your words are also mine.
I'll add another "A-men!" to that!
So sorry about your grandpa. Today is the anniversary of us losing my brother (depression).
I'm so sorry for your loss. 💓
This channel is very helpful; I really thought members of controlling religions knew more about other perspectives on faith and, among Christians, their denomination's "place" in the pantheon 😉 of variations. I didn't realize I was so lucky to be raised in a boring, mainline protestant free thinking church. I want so badly to be full of justified rage at the behavior of many Christians affiliated with these zealous denominations. but understanding the brainwashing & manipulation involved, it's heart breaking to see and hear the actual reality. I am not a Christian, but am Jesus-centered ethically...I just wish everyone in those faith groups, which seem to actively avoid focusing of Jesus' main points, could know the completely accepting and loving Jesus that I was taught about.
Just found your podcast. I'll be back for sure. One of my odd hobbies is to listen, read and expose myself to every (anti) former LDS church member's story and reasons for leaving the faith. Kolby is a particularly interesting guest. I'm also a big fan of RFM, who I've gotten to know somewhat outside of his RFM persona. The two, both attorneys, have very similar, articulate argument and reasoning styles. Also a fan of Dehlin, but for different reasons. That all said, I'm an active, believing member of the LDS faith to this day. Turning over the problematic stones of religious belief is not just a hobby, but a personal quest to try to challenge my own faith. So far, it's done just the opposite. I'd love to sit in a room with Kolby and RFM and have a very long, in-depth didcussion on faith in general, and the LDS faith specifically. I like to think we'd get along nicely and have a spirited discussion at the very least. Kolby, if you're ever in St George (which most northern Utah/Idaho folks do have plans to visit Southern Utah in the relatively near future) I'd love to meet you in person.
So far, I don't have any plans to make it to St. George--but I'd be more than happy to discuss if you're ever in the Boise area (or want to discuss remotely online). In case you're unaware, RFM and I did a three-part series together on his podcast that goes very in-depth. RFM episodes 259, 260, 262.
You do a great job with your podcast! Thank you. Great guest with great insights.
We started deconstructing our faith on a more critical level while at University as well. We had nightmares and flashbacks after anthropology class because of the information about evolution. We felt SO guilty for getting an A in the class. How sick is that? 🙀
❤😢❤
From 19:30 to 22:10. The Lord directed this the protestant sects. It doesn't appear to have been directed at Catholicism.
Jew here, the story of Issac. 1. Issac was NOT a baby. 2. As disgusting as the Issac story feels, it is kind of important in the context of the time. Many ancient religions had human sacrifice. The Issac story was a way to very clearly show that Abrahams god (later to be seen as a monotheistic god) does NOT condone or require human sacrifice.
That is a very good interpretation of the Abraham and Isaac story, much better than what I ever grew up with. Mormonism has leaders that actively teach this is the kind of faith required today--the faith to give these kinds of sacrifices.
Except later in the bible where he requires and accepts the sacrifice of a human girl in exchange for giving her father victory in battle. Except she’s a girl so not only does she not even get a name, she’s barely even a footnote and rarely ever discussed
I get soo frustrated because I too was like this guy! Recently I’ve been praying for 3 years to have a baby and been doing all the “righteous” things to get one yet nothing while everyone around me gets pregnant. How can I believe that a loving God picks favorites?
The pick and choose is what has gotten me as well. Not just the pick and choose who gets what blessings in life but the pick and choose what God is and what God isn’t (he is all loving and all righteous etc yet all too often the angry, jealous, and murederous God is left out). Oh but if ya question this then you are told it’s not murder since He owns us all anyways. Yet we aren’t all his because we may choose to be. It’s a lot of double talk. (I was non-denominational Christian)
@@PinkieJoJo yeah it’s so contradictory. I always joke that I believe in and like Jesus but think God is a jerk 😆
We didn't get his "Linda Listen". That is my favorite part of the show.
Hi Rachel--it's in the second part. It's to eliminate tribalism and recognize that we need to find ways to work and live with and love people who believe differently than us (in a nutshell).
Aww that makes me happy! We split his episode into two so his Linda listen is in the part 2!
Thank Shelise.
Feliz I was hearing a podcast I don’t know how long ago because it comes on when you were talking to somebody about Jehovah’s Witness and you were talking about how they get shun if they do the wrong thing and it came to my mind that’s the same Happ, same thing happens to Amish people if they don’t practice their religion
This reminds me of what Belinda Fettke (Tasmania Australia) has uncovered.
Great episode! I am amazed that Mormons interpretation of Christianity is to mimic Christ. We are not Christ. We are deeply flawed according to most Christians, and Christ died to atone for sins.
I was raised Christian-ish, my grandparents were lay speakers in the United Methodist church and I grew up with my grandmother reading and telling bible stories a lot and stuff, but didn't really get into religion myself until my teenage and young adult years, but I definitely tried the walking on water thing at the pool when I was a kid, too, after she told me that one. 🤣
Yep, the "image of the religion"/ "bringing reproach on Jehovah's name" is the number one repeat drilled very slyly, constantly, super righteously, into your brain. (exJW here)
I would like somebody to interview Dan Reynolds’s (lead singer Imagine Dragons).
I had heard that when he was getting married to his wife, they are very good friends and I guess ex roommates were a gay couple and I guess they were very tight friends and when the gay couple was invited to the wedding, they said they had to decline because of dance being linked to the Mormon church, and that’s where the wedding was taking place.
I had also learned that Diane had thrown some sort of a free concert near the Salt Lake City Mormon, main church, and that I had made apparently an impression on the church but I would like to know if that impression lasted and how long it lasted if Dan feels that that impact that he made was positive fleeting, temporary permanent, I would just love to know.
I feel since you guys have a equal type of background in your religion that it might be easier to have a an honest in-depth conversation about this with him…. I don’t know it’s just a thought.
I’d love to interview him! I briefly knew him back in the day when we all lived in vegas just before they got famous.
The walking on water 🌊 hits me. 6 year old kids should not be taught so seriously any religion. I have religious trauma about going to hell from WAY too much religion at a young age. It's not healthy!!
Absolutely agree!
Traumatic memories. Raised Pentecostal..fire and brimstone scare tactics. I was terrified as a child. Then the movie "Earthquake" came out..I had nightmares for months of being crushed in an earthquake because I was not good enough.
@@millied4089 I fell asleep before prayers one night and had a terrible nightmare. I thought that was God punishing me for missing my prayers. I must have been 6 years old. No child should be that afraid of God, but that's how my brain absorbed the information. Make him happy or else. So sad for little me.
Just saw the part where Kolby's discussion as to how the story of Abraham and Isaac was a big part of of losing faith. I'm not from a Morman background but I totally get where he's coming from. As the late Christopher Hitchens said: If anyone were to come to me and tell me to sacrifice my child to show obedience to them, my reply would be "no, fuck you."
Hitchens was a treasure in how he was able to say things.
@@reddish22 Indeed he was
I am hearing a clicking. If it was an audio issue. Just wanting you to know.
Yay for Enlightenment 😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊
Luving your blouse.
I get the idea of being understanding, but I've reached the point where I can't understand a people who will not call the police regarding criminal abuse of any kind. #obeyinhonoringandsustainingthelaw #areyouhonest
Very interesting 🤔
The Abraham and Isaac story never felt right to me...especially since Abraham had almost been sacrificed by HIS father to a "false idol". How is what God told him to do any different!?
And did Sarah even have informed consent on the matter? I don't remember. She had waited and prayed for her only kid. How is God loving by telling her husband to off her kid?!
Absolutely!
Thanks
😂😂😂I totally thought I would walk on water someday too. Definitely focused hard on having faith then gave it a try…
Didn’t work. 😆
Good for you for not going
Shelise you are a jewel
I converted to the church. After the initial new convert excitement wore off, I realized that the church wasn’t for me. As a 43 year old man finding a companion is next to impossible at that age unless you want to be a step dad to 3+ kids. Which I wasn’t looking for, I wanted someone younger so I can have my own kid(s). I told the two sister missionaries who taught me, one was supportive the other blocked me on Facebook.
Adam and Eve. The Flood. The Exodus. Allegories
Hey, how about being told to not say anything as a victim of abuse by either the enabler or the abuser to the victim themselves? Trust me, it happens, not just in a religious context, but just abusive situations.
Imo, clergy or any other person in a position of authority, and/or trust regardless of job or responsibilities [i.e. Bishop, teacher; etc.], especially when Vulnerable Populations are involved of whom they're around and responsible for NEED the toughest laws against them and the highest form of punishment for such parties found guilty.
Imo, such people destroy lives whether through life-ending abise or abuse that they end up surviving death by slim chances.
It is the same, there's a victim in all of this and they deserve justice.
Isaak was not Abraham's first born it was Ishmael I think 🤔 born to Sarah's handmaid which is a story within that story.
You're right--I didn't want to get into the whole complicated narrative of Ishmael and Hagar because it wasn't central to the story of the actual sacrifice, but thanks for pointing that out.